Jerry Ross | The Alchemy of Wellness: Questions & Answers For Personal Freedom | Wellness Force

You have people that have been in a certain state so long that they don't know what feeling right is.

They don't know what a center actually is.

Well, they know what a center is because they're so far out of it and it's been since maybe they were a baby that they actually were centered. And he said, I give this to them to quickly help them understand this is what you can feel like all the time. It. Wow.

J.W. ross, Cal Callahan, Josh Trent, thank you for having us in your home again. I feel like I'm having deja vu for this podcast. What an epic night we had last night. I'm looking forward to this conversation. People already know you and we're on the Great Unlearned. By the way, this is Wellness Force held by the Great Unlearned. So thank you for having me, man.

Yeah, this is an exciting collaboration. Now, we knew we were both gonna podcast with JW months ago, and you had it kind of hinted that maybe we'd do something and then we.

It'd be fun.

It never went anywhere. And then yesterday it hit me. It's like, dude, why don't we just do this together? I've never done it before. I've never co hosted on the Great Unlearned with another podcast host. So this is dope.

Well, thank you, man. And jw, it's been an ultimate joy just to get to know you and your story. We're drinking this special beverage called Feel Free. And I'll tell you what, I am definitely feeling free. I have been drinking it since August, since we got connected through Paul Check, who I think has touched our lives in so many different ways. But to kick us off, man, like this, this drink, it's not just a drink. This is a medicine. And there's a unique story that came into the backside of it. This medicine is something that, I'll be honest, most people don't know about it. Most people don't know that kratom and Kava even exist. When did that first come on your radar?

My first experience was with kava and it was about 35 years ago, ceremony with village chief in Tana, Vanuatu. And we basically there was about, I guess about 12 of us. I was the only non native and we gathered in a mud floor hut and basically sat there all night drinking cup after cup and were howling when the sun rose. Quite an experience.

The ultimate ceremony.

The ultimate ceremony.

When people look at you, do they feel like you're a medicine man or a scientist?

Definitely has that vibe.

He has that vibe. When you get to know him. But for people that don't know jw, I mean, this is a man with a unique financial background. Like, you've been through quite the story.

It's been a long, strange trip to get to this point, to say the least. Yeah, my background started out in the energy business and then went into financial technology, and through that started discovering the plants that we're using today, not only for this product, but for the other products. And I have to say this is by far the most enjoyable thing that I've done so far.

And I would love just. You kind of glossed over the energy business, and I know the story and I would love for you to share that with the listeners here. How you got into that business.

Well, I'm originally from Texas, and being in Texas, growing up in Texas, pretty much everybody was either in that business or touched by it some way. My family was not. My dad was an entrepreneur, but in other industries. But I had a lot of friends that their family was in it, and I liked the way that they lived their life. They worked extremely hard, but they also played extremely hard. And they had a lot of the fun toys and all that. I, you know, I liked what the, you know, what that looked like. So I skipped college right out of high school. I went into the oil fields, which this was in the early 80s. And it, you know, at that time, for someone without a college education, you could make quite a bit of money if you're willing to put the time in. So I was, you know, working as much as they'd allow me to work and basically out, you know, working on a rig.

How much? Give us a little, little altitude on that. How much were you making back then?

This is what, six, six figures.

In the, in the 80s.

In the 80s for, you know, just a, you know, young kid, which is a lot of money. Yeah, I was making six figures and spending six figures.

And what were you spending those six figures on again?

Working hard and playing.

Yes.

So all of the, you know, the various substances, alcohol primarily, but also, you know, cocaine and marijuana and pretty much everything else I get my hands on, I just never. I always felt somewhat socially distanced. I never really felt true to comfortable around people in general. And I needed something to change that feeling, to feel comfortable, to be able to open up. I think by nature somewhat of an introvert. And I found that these substances, especially alcohol, would allow me to feel the way that I wanted to feel.

Yeah, I think we've all had our experiences with it. Probably many of the people Listening today. And I know that one of the benefits of alcohol, it does drop that self consciousness. And so it can. I mean, I think it gets painted in a very negative picture. And unfortunately, that's. It's true for the most part, but it does allow us to kind of step into this other space that until we've actually done the work to feel comfortable around other people, it can be that kind of lubricant into.

I know for a lot of people, they talk about their first experience with alcohol, the first sip, whatever, doesn't taste good. For me, it was love at first sight, and then it was the love story that ended with the divorce.

Yeah, I think so many people, to Cal's point, too, it's like we don't have the skills. I didn't. When I was growing up and I was a teenager and a young adult, I didn't know what the hell I was doing. And so anything that would make me feel more free or better in my own skin, comfortable in my own skin, I was attracted to that. But it comes with consequence.

Oh, there's no doubt about it. And, and. And that was me, because my family was extremely distant, didn't have a close relationship at all with my family. So I never really developed, especially my dad, I never really developed a lot of those, you know, skills that I know now and, you know, that deficit. I used these substances to kind of. To overcome that or feel that.

I would also assert that just as you're talking about the distance with your father. And I think in a lot of cases, those relationships, when dads aren't showing up to teach their sons, there is a downside, but there's also an upside. Because, I mean, I look at you and what you've. The little that we've gotten to spend time together, what I've learned from you, what you had to teach yourself and the resilience. And who knows if you would have been able to create all that you created if you had a different upbringing. And so I think that's, It's. It's really interesting to look at your life in particular, knowing that you didn't have that relationship in where you are today.

It forced me to go out and make a lot of mistakes on my own and lose a lot of things. And because of that, I learned a tremendous amount. When you're going through those things, they seem like the end of the world. But looking back, as I get older, they were the most valuable things that happened to me. Much more so than the major successes.

And when you say major Successes, not just financial, because there's emotional intelligence. Wins that you got along the way that were right. Can we cuss on the great unlearned fuck? Yeah. Okay. Because I didn't know. I didn't know if we were censored. I assume not. So there's so many things that we learn. Like, I'm 41, and I feel like I'm just really understanding, like, my love and my respect and really my care for money. And it seemed like money came online for you right out the gate, like right out of high school. Like, you were involved in it. It was a part of your life. You had a relationship with it. Six figures in the 80s. Like, I was born in 1980, so I know that was a lot of money back then. What was the win besides the money that you got early in the game?

Well, it's just the, you know, the feeling of the power and the whole entourage of people and the sense that you're, you know, you're building something. I've always enjoyed building things. When I say building things, I'm talking about teams and watching people work together and putting the right people together. I find that very satisfying. And then the money part, which followed with that, I had kind of an idea in my mind of what success was or what for me, with time, it became many, many multiples of that. And again, trying to fill this hole, I was buying all these things, and it took a long time to figure it out, but I finally figured out that those things are actually just chains. And it all kind of got to the point where we were having a large event at the house and had like a 17,000 square foot house and had three or 400 people over and.

And 17,000 square feet.

Yeah. Okay. And I'm sitting in the bedroom by myself, and it just dawned on me that I am totally miserable here. I have what I thought was success times 100, and I'm miserable. Part of that was that I had stopped doing all the other drugs, but the alcohol was always the go to, and it just continued to get progressively worse, and it was starting to cause problems in my life. I'd been, I guess what you call a functioning alcoholic for a long time, but it finally got the point where it was, know, it's creating issues and there was. There was a crash, and that crash actually, you know, wound up being, you know, going to treatment.

This is 2008, I believe you said, in Georgia.

Right, right.

And for people that don't know what that's like, what is. What does that feel like to Go from money house at really kind of fame. I'm sure in your social group, people are like, wow, JW's got it all together.

Exactly. I think that's probably the hardest part because you're successful in everything else that you're doing. And I kept telling myself that if I can control and do all this other, I could control this too. So I just kept trying over and over again the definition of insanity. You keep doing the same thing again, expecting different results. And I did it for years and years and years. And finally those that were around me convinced me that you've got to go do something or you're going to kill yourself and. Or somebody else. Which I had several close calls. And so I went to Atlanta for a 90 day inpatient treatment. And it was just a. It was a life changing experience. I know a lot of people don't think a lot about treatment or it takes 10 or 15 times. But for me it was, it was, it was the right facility with the right patients that I really. Because it was, it was the center, actually. It specializes in doctors and commercial airplane pilots. So it was other people that had, you know, had attain success. And I was able to relate to them and realize that, you know, we all have this insanity. It doesn't have any. You can be extremely successful and still have this insanity.

I was going to say, I wonder if you could share the name of the facility because it seemed to have such a great impact on you. And if there's anyone listening now who may be seeking or know someone.

I don't know if it's still in existence or not, but it's Talbot was the name of it.

Right. And we'll look that up and see if it is. And if it is, we'll include it in the show notes.

I was riding home last night. We had a meal with Luke. It was amazing at this restaurant here in Austin. And we both were getting to talking. Like, what causes addiction in the first place? What actually makes people addicted to something? Is it that they get traumatized? Either capital T, lowercase T. And then there's a disassociation from self? Or is it like a soul contract where they come into the world and they're kind of, I guess you could say hexed or jinxed to be an addict. What's your view on that? Because a lot of people listening to this are like dealing with some kind of addiction. I mean, to be human is to be addicted to many things at many times.

I mean, for me, you know, the treatment itself, all the sessions and all of that, that was fine. I think it just set the stage. But it was towards the end of the 90 days, and I was living with three doctors in a condo close to the facility. And we were watching TV one night and a movie came on, the Beautiful Mind with Russell Crowe.

Oh, yeah.

And at the end of that, he's walking along with his arch nemesis, and he said, you know, you seem to be doing much better. Do you still see them, you know, talking about the psychotic, you know, friends that he has, some imaginary friends? And he looks over and they're walking along beside him, and they're kind of saying, hey, come over. And he just kind of ignores them. And he goes, yes, I still see them, but I've learned to not engage with them. And for some reason, it dawned on me that he's no different than I am. He may have a more extreme version of it where he actually sees, but that's no different than me hearing it or it's in my mind thinking it and acting on it. And what's interesting is, up until that point in my life, anything that I thought I believed to be true. And what I realized then was that just because you think something doesn't mean it's true. That in fact, a lot of what you think is not true. It's just noise. It's your brain just exercising or something. And it was just really a light bulb moment for me because what I had been trying to do before was to control it. I was trying to get it to go away. And what I realized at that point was it's never going away, always going to be there. But it doesn't mean that I have to engage with it. And not just for that, but for many other things in my life, that was an extremely important moment.

There's a lot of parallels between your life and his life. There are not necessarily alcohol, but lots of similarities that I'm just kind of like, whoa, we're meant to be here in this moment. What are your thoughts on what he just shared about the thoughts and believing them? We got a book right here, the Power of Now, right here on the bookshelf in your studio. I'm like, it's a surreal moment.

Yeah. No, I just feel this is such beautiful medicine because, for one, when my life changed was when I started to question everything and understand that all the beliefs that I held, many of them, weren't true. And in the beginning of that process is pretty challenging because you're holding on pretty tightly to those things. And if you don't Believe those. Well, your life is kind of architected around that and you're armored up around that. You've been defending these different things for years. It's like, well, who am I if I'm not these things? Once you sit in it long enough and you have enough support around you and you're reading the right books and you have this understanding like, oh, those are chains, right? I'm just held down by these things that aren't mine. Someone else gave them to me and I believed it. And so there's this liberation that happens. And it's challenging, man, because you're sitting there like, ah, there was something nice about my old life that was very comfortable. But as you work in there, you're like, fucking comfort's not the way. And to sit in that and to be able to hold, kind of hold space for yourself in that experience for me, allowed me to start to look at life through a completely different lens. Way more open minded and to be able to have conversations with people and hear them and then to get a little bit deeper into, well, why is it that they feel this way? And are they at a place where I have been or I still go sometimes where I'm holding onto these things and I'm afraid to let go of them. And so what you're talking about, that resonates deeply. I do want to point out, I'm curious what, what a conversation with you would have been like 15 years ago, right before this. Because the way you carry yourself right now, you're so soft spoken.

You have this gentle giant, you have.

This kind of just beautiful energy, this very elder kind of energy about you. And I'm curious if this is something that you've really stepped into through all the work you've done. I was like, what would your friends, what would your friends say?

My wife would say that I wasn't a very nice person because of what I called success at that time. I was extremely controlling. And what you just talked about, listening to people, I didn't listen to people except for what I wanted to listen to. And it was more about using people to get to the goals that I wanted to get to. And I truly looked at people as resources or assets to accomplish the goal that I was trying to accomplish and not really caring about them as people themselves, which is a horrible place to be. But that's what I had evolved into.

But being in that place, in coming through that now, you really understand, like you have that experience. It's like on a shitty, you don't feel good about it, but that's part of your learning, which is beautiful.

It's not just that, but it's also being able to understand. When I see people that are there to understand, it's not that they're bad people. It's just that they don't know. We had this conversation at dinner last night. It's a concept that I've come to call cardboard Angels. You know, when you look at the front, they look great, but when you step around the side, there's no depth there. And where you really will figure out who are Cardboard angels is when shit hits the fan, because those people will scatter. And it's not, again, because they're bad people. It's just that they can't relate to it. They'll automatically think, well, that person's bad. Or, you know, they're. You know, they're wicked, or whatever.

This is like the cancel culture we're seeing right now. You offend me. I'm gonna delete you from my life. It's like, that's not how life works.

Whereas, you know, the other people that do have the deeper level, compassion. So I started trying to figure out, you know, what's the common denominator between the Cardboard Angels and, you know, and this other group? What's their common denominator? And what I figured out was after talking to them, because then I got to the point where I really started caring about people and who they are and what they're going through. And what I found was that every one of those people that were in this, what I call not the Cardboard Angels, were people that had had something extremely traumatic happen in their life. They had lost a child that had a disease, something. They had financial ruin, and some of them multiple things. Those people were the people that, when you didn't expect them to step up, when they stepped up, they would actually come out and seek you because they had this deeper level of compassion.

I would also probably add to that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but those people, arguably the whole group, both groups, may have had those experiences, but that group that really stepped up had actually done the work to start to process and so that they could show up in a way, because they didn't. I think we all have things in our life that we could point to where shit was kind of fucked up.

Josh brought a good point up last night is you can either go that direction or you can become the victim.

That's right. And it's easy and cushy to be a victim.

It's much easier to Fall back into the victim role and sit there and keep spiraling around than it is to then do the work and figure out how to move beyond that. And I was doing as part of this process, I took about a year, year and a half sabbatical to really try to figure out what it is I was going to do with the rest of my life, at least the next chapter of my life. Reading books like Siddhartha by Herman Hess and learning that it's not bad to go through these things. In fact, it's really probably what life should be. And that each one of these chapters teaches you something for the next chapter on your road to enlightenment, whatever that ultimately is. And it's also, you need to move between chapters when it's time to move and not to hang on to the previous chapter. That creates a tremendous amount of suffering. And I see that, you know, a lot. And then that's kind of what I was stuck in, was that it, you know, that lifestyle had become my identity and who I was and my security, and I didn't want to give that up.

Yeah, there's comfort there. And we were talking about this last night, too. The chapter 12 in Way of the Superior Man. Data talks about that, David Data. And it's like when you're coming to the end of that chapter for him, it's like kind of this inner circle as you're getting closer and closer to your true purpose, you need to let go of that. Otherwise you are just going to create suffering.

Well, you can't continue to grow if you're holding on to it. And it's not towards the end, Siddhartha, he's sitting on the bank of the river, listening to the water flow. But he's thinking back about these different periods in his life, the wild period and all that. And. And it's not that you can't enjoy those memories, and it's not that you should feel guilty about that. It's because all of that was part of the process that got you to the side of the creek. Being perfectly happy, listening to the water.

How do you. This is something that I was feeling probably for the whole time during COVID Just a lot of reflection time, a lot of alone time, a lot of deep meditation. Just really learning the art of forgiveness for myself, for all the women that I disrespected, for the people I had treated wrong, for the people that I had used. How did you make amends to that? And I don't mean specifically 12 step make amends. I mean, how did you energetically etherically, make amends to all the stuff that really didn't serve you but yet still got you to the top of a.

Mountain, you know, because the program that I was in was class leave is 12 step based. I did that for the first phase, but then it became beyond that. It was all part of this sabbatical of okay, I know how to make money. I know that that's not the only thing because I wasn't happy with just that. So what is it I'm really trying to or what am I meant to do? And I realized in that period that it wasn't just about me. It was about doing something that actually was of value to society. It's not, it's about building value, but not just value for me. And that's really what propelled me to move into the next chapter which was the financial technology. And that was around. I'd been exposed to migrant labor in the Middle east on energy project we did there and been exposed to migrant labor here in the US and just in talking to these people and the issues they have and just sending money home, most of them send money home small increments every two weeks. On average they pay around 8 to 10% to send that money home. It's a half a trillion dollars a year that gets sent and it's growing by 8 or 9% per year. So it's a tremendous amount of people sending very small increments of money. And these companies, Western Union being the granddaddy of all that, basically these are people that need the money the most and they're getting charged the most. We don't really, I mean we get basically free banking. These are the people that don't have much money. They're paying out the ass for banking. And then all the issues with going to pick up the cash and robberies and it just went on and on. So I was trying to, I decided to try to figure out a way to. First being the entrepreneur, I was like that's a big high. And if I can shave a couple points off of that, it's a huge business. And second being it's actually something that's going to do good for a lot of people if I can actually pull this off. So I started a fintech company, financial technology and the basis of it was an app that was connected to the banks with the ability to people to send money in real time across border and do it for a fraction of the cost. But it also had other banking services in it. So it had savings and all of that and it was really, it was gamified to where people were incentivized to save money. And it was on a global scale. And it was designed where, using the purchasing power, parity of money, that it would preferentially flow money between developed and developing countries. I mean, the basis idea of it was incredible. And we actually built it and launched it in Southeast Asia. And that's how I got in Southeast Asia and run across some of the other plants that we're using. And it took off and we had a couple big partners in the deal and they wound up buying it out.

Is this about the same time that to circle back to the question that the forgiveness part of you came on? It seems like ever since you had really your spiritual awakening in Georgia, you really had to go deep and be like, why am I here? What am I doing? Who am I serving? How am I going to give back? Because I know that the way that I was up until that 2008 wasn't necessarily the most loving. So there must have been a deep introspection point where you were like, okay, I'm going to do things that actually serve people now.

It was a gradual process. Like I said, I took about a year, year and a half. It took me a while to really, you know, make that change because it was. That's a massive change.

Deeply ingrained.

And you know, everyone that I had had in my community.

We got Petunia outside my pig.

So that's the mask, it's the podcast mascot.

That's right.

Bring her in. And so everybody that I've was around had that same mindset. So it was, it was not only, you know, repairing or changing myself, but it was also, you know, removing myself from a lot of people that, you know, I thought were near and dear. And again, it was back to this and I think, you know, back to Siddhartha reading things like that and realizing that it's not the end of the world to make a, you know, a wholesale change like that. In fact, it can be quite exciting. It's scary at the same time, but it can be. And for me anyway, it was unbelievably rewarding.

What was the biggest reward?

Being here.

Uh huh. Being here and having the story and doing this and.

Yeah, and I can say that, you know, what we're doing now with the plant medicines is I'm having the time of my life.

I looked at JW at dinner last night and I was like, feel like this Botanic tonics and feel free. Is your forgiveness process and really your value kind of making things right again in the world or what you've been through and the way you used to be. And it feels like that's what this is. It's a gift to the world so you can help make things right.

It is. But there's still that piece of me that I don't think will ever go away. My real motive was because now alcohol was out of my life. I had a much better life, but it still didn't feel exactly comfortable in my skin. And I was looking for something that would make me feel comfortable in my skin, but not have the negative effects that alcohol started having as I consumed more and more of it. I was wanting something that wasn't inebriating or limiting. I was wanting something that was not only made me feel comfortable socially, but also was enhancing as far as a focusing ability. And when I was in Southeast Asia, I lived there for a period of time. I was introduced to kratom and had a interesting experience with that.

What do you mean by interesting?

Just trying the different types of kratom. You know, I would spend a lot of time traveling out in the rural areas like in Vietnam and stuff, places that most people would never go, and just talking to people and getting a better understanding of their lives and trying these different plants and it just, you know, a wonderful time. But it, it made me go back and remember the experience I'd had in Vanuatu many, many years prior. And then I got the idea of taking the two plants and mixing them together, which, you know, to date no one else has done, not, not at least commercially. And that whole process, I'm a huge researcher. So when I get into something, I really like trying to find out all I can about it. I started studying the history of these types of plants or substances back thousands of years. And I discovered something that to me is very interesting in that you have, you have kana in Africa, you have coca in Central and South America, you have kava in the Pacific islands, you have kratom in Southeast Asia, and then you have alcohol in the Middle East, Europe and China. All of these things developed independently. One thing is fascinating to me, they're all okay and starting and they weren't cross pollinated different plants. The other interesting thing is that alcohol is the only one of them, in the way it's natively used, that's highly processed. And what I started realizing was that don't mess with mother nature. And alcohol is a wonderful substance for a lot of people, but it's also extremely physically hard on your body. And the reason for that is because it is highly processed, and from a society standpoint, it's created a lot of problems. All of these other plants used in their native form, and that's how they use them. People in their 80s still consuming them on a regular basis with no issues at all.

And you were talking about that last night, Just the difference between the coca plant and cocaine, that processing that changes everything. Yeah.

I mean, people. You hear cocaine, they're like, oh, bad. You know, which I would agree with that. But you take the coca leaves and you've got, you know, people that are in their middle late 80s and central south America have been consuming their entire life, no problems at all. But you strip out the other alkaloids, the fiber, all the other things that are in that leave to extract an alkaloid or two, that is cocaine. And you use solvents, basically gasoline, what they use. And that's a whole nother story.

The plant medicine world that I know you have operated in for quite some time, and you have experiential learning. So do I. You shared with us one of your journeys when you were 18. I don't know if you want to talk about that or not, but I think we've all had experience in the plant world. And right now, people are, in my opinion, my vantage point from the messages that I get in the Wellness Force community suffering more now than I've ever seen because of COVID and the lockdowns and all these things. Have you seen that as well? I mean, you put your phone number on the bottle, people are calling you, letting you know stories about how this is impacting their lives. So two questions. Number one, how do you see this changing the plant medicine world? Because, let's be real, plant medicine ain't for everyone.

Right?

Right.

Well, I would say that not all.

Plant medicines, not all plant medicine. And then the second thing is, what do you see this turning into? How do you see this changing? Stress?

And so to your point, yes, there's a tremendous amount of suffering going on. You know, part of that suffering is because of the medicines that we're actually using as a Western society, the doctors are classically trained to push the synthetic drugs, and that's backed by big pharma. There's a reason for that. Because you can't patent plants. You can't make the kind of money you could make off of. Of, you know, patented drugs. You can build a moat around that. So it's. It's all financially based, but again, you're. You're messing with mother Nature. You know, these The Eastern. And I spent a lot of time studying eastern medicine when I was in Southeast Asia. You know, they will default to plants first and then go to synthetics if needed. Here we automatically go to synthetics because of the system. And we may dabble a little bit in the plants. That seems to be changing. There seems to be an education process going on, but there's, there's plants for a lot of different things. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that plants can cure anything. But when you take plants and then when you take interesting combinations of those plants, they can do some pretty amazing things. And it's really, I find great happiness and joy in the fact that it seems to be there's an awakening to that. I mean, all the money now and research that's being put in, in the institutions about, you know, the mushrooms and, you know, for trading, you know, depression and other things. And what they're finding is that these things can do all these wonderful things. Well, we've known that for thousands of years. It's just that we got off the path because of the synthetics and now we're finally getting back to realizing that Mother Nature provided these solutions and we just forgot about them. At least we forgot about them in Western society.

Do you feel like this will be something that changes the psychedelic space? Because I personally have had a journey or two that took me years to recover from and it's no knock on me as a person. It's just sometimes we all experience an ass kicking that maybe the universe wanted us to receive. But for the average public, people that have disorders, I know that Kava and Kratom have incredibly dopaminergic and serotonin release properties. I mean, there's so many good things that can come from these plants, but yet they don't take, they don't blast people off into fucking 5D. Like, it's a safer form of medicine. And I can only imagine what would happen if it was paired with breathwork. So what do you see that doing to the whole space of plant medicine?

Well, that's what I'm excited to see because you have now people that are getting into it and setting up the infrastructure around it to do it in a safer manner. So it's not you slipping off somewhere in a gray area to do it or doing it on your own. It's actually doing it in a supervised environment and doing it, laddering up to find out what it is you need as opposed to just my first experience just blasting off.

Unfortunately, I feel like that's most people's experience.

That's kind of the.

Do as much as you can. It's like that's, that's no place for the ego in this world where you're self dosing like that.

Agreed, 100% self dosing like that to.

Or anything is probably not a good idea.

Good idea.

I'm excited about it because. So you put your phone number on the bottle.

Put my phone number on the bottle. Which everyone told me that was a crazy thing to do.

But did you get a bunch of calls?

I get on average at least two calls a day.

Yeah.

And, but it has been the most rewarding part of the whole adventure so far. I get calls from 65 year old grandmothers with collapsed ankles that were eating pain pills like candy that now are totally off of them, to someone that has depression, to a Fortune 500 CEO that said he was, you know, had this weight on his chest that you know, was, you know, driving him crazy basically. And it's gone to a professional golfer that said he's playing the best golf he's played in years. To other types of athletes that are doing, in training or doing, you know, Olympic athletes. People that have, you know, really massive anxiety that it's, you know, and, and we talked about this last night. I, I really, I hate using this word because it's so abused. Adaptogen. But this particular tonic truly is an adaptogen. And I know that because people are taking the time to call me unsolicited and tell me that it's changed their life. And people wouldn't do that unless they, and not wanting anything, just wanting to tell me that you know, what it's done for them. People wouldn't take the time to do that unless it actually had rocked their world. And to me that's, you know, that really wasn't what I thought it was when I did it. Which doing it was quite a process.

Yeah, it was two years in the making of the fricking mad scientist in your basement.

And made my wife extremely nervous, especially early on because the issues I'd had in the past. And so basically when I decided to put these two plants together, there wasn't a manual because nobody's done it before. And they're very similar to cannabis in that there's hundreds of different strains of each one of them. And so I started pairing them together and I was doing this all myself. I was working, you know, basically working on myself and didn't work that well to begin with. But I, for some reason I, I had this vision that, you know, there was a right combination, a right percentage. And so basically, for a two year period, I set up a lab in my house and I experimented on myself every week.

Did you ever have a honey, I shrunk the kids moment where people got small?

No, I didn't have that. But what I did have was that in some of these combinations, it'll basically knock you out. And some of them it'll zing you up to where you're extremely jittery.

You talked about that idea. You said you had the vision with your eyes. Where did the vision come from? That you knew at some point this was gonna work out. Was it inspired by the trips to Thailand and Asia or. Or was it like a deep inner knowing that you're like, I just know this is going to work.

I think it's the stubbornness in me of, I'm going to make this work. Because it took. It was a long time and a lot of different combinations to try to find. And what I can tell you is that 99.9% of the rest of them combined don't do what this does. Combined. And either one of them by themselves don't give you what it does when put together. They're both attacking the same receptors in the brain, but they're doing it with different chemicals. Kava uses kavalactones and Kratom uses alkaloids. One of them. And there's Kava, that's uplifting, There's Kava that's downlifting. The same thing with Kratom. There's Kratom that's energizing, there's Kratom is euphoric, creating a sleepy time. These two are, you know, you have one that's energizing and one that's. That's trying to take you down. But so you're getting this kind of wavy feeling. And we're using, again, we're using not extracts or synthetics, which were the only one on the market that's not an extract or synthetic. And that's a very challenging thing to figure out how to do. And keep it, get enough of it in there, keep it in a shot and keep it liquefied and not use anything, emulsifiers or anything?

Yeah. Can you share with people why that's important? Just if they can't intuitively kind of understand that.

So again, I go back to the coca leaves and cocaine. You can very easily take Kratom and go through the same process you go through with coca leaves to cocaine. And you can make a shot that you Take it, and whoa, it hits you. But what happens is within an hour, hour and a half, you crash off of it. And then you want another one and another one, another one. This. You take it 15, 20 minutes, you like, you feel different. But then it lasts for three, four hours, and you glide off of it, and you don't even realize you're coming off of it. And at night, you go to sleep. You have wonderful sleep. We had a lot of people report about the vivid dreams that they're having that they haven't remembered or had before. And you wake up the next day, and no hangover, any of that, and away you go. And that's what that is, is it's the full spectrum of each one of the plants, the root and the leaf and all these other little things that are in there that we don't know anything about, all these other alkaloids, all this other fiber and everything else. And it's the balance that Mother Nature's created of all that through thousands and thousands of years, in combination with us evolving, that the body can use to properly get you the result that you want to heal you, basically. And you can't do that with a synthetic.

Yeah, got it. That makes perfect sense.

The first time I ever heard of Kratom. And that is how we pronounce it, right? Kratom or Kratom.

I think some people call it Kratom. I think kratom pronounces it Kratom.

I heard about it from Mark Bell's brother and company Mind Bullet.

Well, I heard about. He was on Kyle's podcast, and I.

Listened to that, and I was like, okay, I'll try. And it just rocked my. I took one little tiny tablet, and I felt like I was just crap. Like I was on some kind of drug, like a narcotic. And I was like, okay, that's not for me. And no. And no offense to. To the Bell brothers. I mean, I'm sure that works for some people. But with this, like, the first time I took this, it was August in Cardiff. Beautiful time of year to be in Cardiff. North County, San Diego, for people that don't know. And I drank, like, half the bottle, and I went on a hike. And I'll be honest, my lady and I had gotten in a fight. And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna drink this. I'm gonna go, like, meditate and let me ask questions about how I could have shown up differently. And I went for this walk, and all of a sudden I got like, this. It brought me Back to when I was in high school. And the first time I had done, like, a mdma. But it wasn't a dirty feeling like mdma, it was more like a, whoa, this is something natural that's making me have, like, a focused euphoria in nature. And I got to tell you, it just cracked me wide open. I went back home, we had a beautiful nonviolent communication. And this is what I think the power of this medicine really is.

Interesting you bring that up, because again, back to my phone number and the people calling in. I actually had a call from a lady here in Austin, and she had actually bought it for herself for looking for something, for energy. And she reported that it did what she wanted. She liked it, but she said, I gave some of it to my husband. She goes, I didn't tell him what it was. And she said that evening, her girls came in and said, what's up with dad? He's playing with us. He's giggling. He's not working, not ignoring us. And she said that she had noticed the same thing. She said, he's just like a different person. And again, for someone that. To take the time. She wasn't wanting anything. She was just wanting to tell me that it had done this for. And say, thank you, he's a nicer person. And that, to me, that's the reward, is to know that you've changed someone's life that way and done it in a way that you feel comfortable that it's something that's not going to create other issues in their life. You know, one of the things I was very mindful of, since somebody hasn't combined these before, was that, you know, that it's not causing health issues or other issues. So I actually, again, experimenting on myself, didn't want to put this on to somebody else. I. I abused it for a period of time. And I get extensive blood work done every year. So I had a. And I keep track of that, you know, that all the different stats. And I did blood work after, you know, doing this period of what I call, you know, high consumption abuse daily.

What is high consumption of?

I was doing four a day.

So. Four of these?

Yeah.

Every single day?

Yeah.

Okay.

And the blood chemistry didn't change hardly at all. There was only this. There was a slightly elevated blood sugar content. Not anything that was a problem, but the liver enzymes and all that. Everything else was fine, which I was very glad to see, because it was something by then that I really enjoy, and it's a great thing for me in my life. But I didn't want to put something out there that would cause other problems.

Yeah, and I'll just speak up. I found out about this from Josh in December. We had a holiday party. Josh was kind enough to bring over a case and handed it all out. Unfortunately, he handed it all out, so when I went the next day, there was none left. You texted me.

You're like, can I have another one of those?

We don't get those. Yeah, but I. So I've been using it a couple times a week since December. And one of the things I noticed right off the bat is it's like you talked about. It's a heart opener for me. So I feel very present with whomever it is. If it's on a podcast, if it's my wife, my kids, my friends, I'm just there in a way that sometimes I'm not. I also will do it if I have some work that I want to get done. And I go like two to three hours where I gotta get this stuff done or maybe I've gotta be super creative. It just locks me in and I'm just good. And I can also juggle a bunch of different things at the same time because I'm just in such a state of flow. And so after using it, you know, not just the first time, but after I'd used it for maybe. I don't know if it was a month, I reached out to Josh, said, josh, do you know? I know, you know, the founder, is he looking for investment? Because I only, you know, today I only invest in things that I love. I invest in things that I will evangelize whether I have money in the company or not. Just one of those things. Just like Josh with this. He's like, I love this stuff, and I'm sharing it. That's how I am too. And so he connected us and we, you know, I'm officially. So, full disclosure, I am an investor and really excited to be a part of this. I've shared it with a lot of my friends. I'm excited to share it more with the great unlearned community because I think it's doing so much good. What you've created and how you've created it, the work you did to put it, to get it to the place where it is today. But your energy behind it, the why behind it, I just love that. And you can feel it. Knowing that you can feel it within the experience. There's. It's just. It's very gentle, but there is that euphoria, as you said. The come. There's no comedown. You just. You just. All of a sudden, you're just in life and you're not craving another one.

It's the focusing part of it is something that's interesting too. One of the girls in the office was the first one to report this. She's really bad about attention deficit, looking at her phone every two seconds. And she's creative. And the first time I gave it to her, she did half a shot. And she said, I realized it had been 30 minutes. She said, I was writing, really enjoying what I was doing, and I hadn't picked my phone up.

Oh, it's the cure for cell phonitis. That is exciting.

I was like, that's exactly.

And.

And that's, again, not something that I had, you know, had thought that it would. Would do. But again, I think it's. What it's doing is because you got people that are depressed, that are taking it, that are coming up. You got people anxiety, they're coming down, people with tension deficit, they're taking it to focus again. It is an adaptogen, so it's trying to pull you back into balance using these different plants like mother Nature intended them to do. But the fascinating part to me is that we took these plants from different societies and completely different places in the world and put them together to create this. You know what Paul had? He goes, it's like a dance. They're dancing together. And he goes, that's what's creating this feeling of being comfortable and being right in your body and in your presence.

It doesn't surprise me.

Beautiful thing.

It doesn't surprise me that much. Because if you look at ayahuasca, you have the trikruna, which is thousands of miles away, and then you have the ayahuasca vine, and they put those together, which unlocks the inhibitors in our gi. And so we can actually feel the medicine. It doesn't really shock me that you found the leaf in the root, because really, in a way, this is a medicine that's more applicable to all people rather than people that have, like, mental disorders. And, you know, my. My mom, she's actually visiting here in Austin right now. She has struggled for 25, 30 years with bipolar. And so ayahuasca is off the table for her. Right. And most plant medicines for people that have severe mental issues, they're just off the table. But I'm curious with this, does this apply to. Obviously, we're not here to give medical advice.

Right?

Right. The FDA is not in our pocket, but. But in Your research, either anecdotally or clinically, like, have you seen this? Be something that really moves the needle for more self love, more self awareness for people that have chronic mental disorders.

I've had some very interesting conversations with people, you know, just, you know, to the point of saying, I had a lady in New Hampshire, she said, I had the best day of my life yesterday. She said, I've always had these issues. I won't go into what all it is, but she said, I had the best day of my life. She said, I just wanted you to know that.

Think she got your number on the bottle?

Yeah, it's like, you know, it's just, I mean that just, you know, you can't. That's way beyond the money to know that you're doing, you know, doing that for someone, that you've created something that's doing that for someone.

When I share with you that, you know, really close friend of mine here in Austin for years has had insomnia, has not been able to sleep more than three or four hours. And even that sleep is just not good sleep. I brought some of this over to his house. He just did it because he was, we were just hanging. He woke up the next day, goes, what was that stuff you gave me? He goes, I slept eight hours. Oh my God, can I get more? Like, yes, I have more and I'll get you more. And it's changed his life and he's a high functioning creative. But as you were saying earlier, like that, that lack of sleep, you know, we were talking about before we got on the podcast, lack of sleep will kill you eventually.

It will shorten your life. Yes.

And I love that. Could you share a little bit about what that did for you?

Yeah, I had always, I've always got up very early in the morning. I wake up usually between 4 and 4:30. And for most of my life I didn't go to sleep until later. So I was getting, you know, I probably average maybe six hours of sleep a night or what I thought was six hours. But as I got older, I started to get to the point where about two or three o' clock in the afternoon I couldn't stay awake and mentally I was fatiguing. So at one of my annual physicals I asked my doctor, I said, what's going on? And he said, well, I don't see anything chemistry wise, it's a problem. He said, let's run a sleep study and see exactly how much you are sleeping. See what the problem is.

This is for people that don't know polysomnography.

Right?

That's the scientific. You can Google that.

Look at you with your 10 cent word.

Okay, so I put the device on and went to sleep for I think it lasted like three, three, three nights. And I took the thing back to them and he called me like within a day and said, you need to come see me. And I, you know, when Dr. Does that immediately you know something's not right. He said, you're, you're truly getting only two and a half, three hours sleep a night. He said, my wife had always complained that I snore, but I didn't think much about it. But he said, what's happening is, he said, you have the point of apnea. And he said, you're waking up hundreds of times a night that you're getting to sleep and you're getting up, you're getting to sleep and you're getting up. But what he discovered was that it was only happening when I was on my back. It wasn't when I was on my sides, but that I didn't sleep on my sides very much because it hurt my shoulders. And he said, we can do the new thing. We can get the machine that you can sleep with. Which I didn't want to do that. Or he said, I can teach you how to sleep on your side using props and all that. And I did that. And it was like a totally changed. So then I was getting a full six hours sleep. But what I noticed since I've started doing the feel free is I actually sleep eight hours now, easily.

Have you ever quantified it like with a bed or with an aura ring or have you ever done any tech to actually track the quantification of it?

No, I haven't.

Like your cycles, that'd be fascinating.

But what I also know is I don't really ever remember. And I know you have dreams every night, you just don't remember them. I have incredibly vivid dreams that I've never really, you know, I remember them, which to me is a wonderful bonus because dreams are so fascinating and so creative and we've had a lot of other people reporting the same thing. So you're gliding off of that after three or four hours, but it's not going away, it's staying in your system and it's doing other things. It's allowing you to sleep sounder and it's also doing something that allows you to remember your dreams, which is to me is fascinating.

A big piece of what I was feeling when you were talking was what this is doing Even the word adaptogen that you kind of hate. And I understand that, but adaptogen has been abused. There is so many. There are so many people that just need to come back home to center in some way. And really what we're all looking for is we want to have alchemy in ourselves so we can live life free. I mean, it's so. It's so cool that you're. The product name is feel Free. Everyone wants freedom. Mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, financially. Do you have a recipe for that? This is why I love learning on podcasts. This is why I love podcasting, because so much value from somebody who's been through unique thresholds in their life. But is there a recipe on how you've lived your life? Free, created, feel free? Like, is that even something that exists or is that always unique to the person?

Well, I think it. For me, and I think, you know, I've talked to other people that it's about doing something like this. Doing something that, you know, is contributing to society, not just to yourself, and that could be in many different forms. That. That's where true happiness lies. That's, you know, and you feel like that you're fulfilled, fulfilled to the point that you're. You're being utilized max to the maximum amount that, you know, you're using all your potential. That is what I figured out is where, you know, my happiness comes from. And. And not only utilize, but utilize towards something that actually is doing good in the world. And Paul Chek had an interesting. One of the first experiences that he had with it. He said, you know what I see this as, and he uses it as practice with people, is that you have people that have been in a certain state so long that they don't know what feeling right is.

They don't know what a center actually is.

They don't know what a center is because they're so far out of it. And it's been since maybe they were a baby that they actually were centered. And he said, I give this to them to quickly help them understand this is what you can feel like all the time. And it's not just this, but now that you understand what the goal is and you got a taste of it, now let's go put the work in to get that 24,7 or to get it as much as you can. And he said, that's a very powerful tool. Because he said, until someone can experience it, it's hard to get them to put the work into. To get. Plus, they don't know what they're they don't even know what they're going after.

Yeah. They don't have that North Star.

Yeah. And he said, you know, it's. They're just kind of floundering around, and they immediately go back to what they were doing before once they leave treatment.

This is why people go to Tony Robbins, Tony Robbins, this workshop, that workshop, and then they get home, they don't integrate it, and then there's no embodiment, there's no true center, because they're not committed to the work.

So what he was saying is it's not just about a plant medicine like this. It's about also then doing, you know, it's. Then it's a journey to continue moving towards, you know, what Siddharthur was doing in his life, that enlightenment, ultimately, whatever that is for each person. But what a wonderful journey, though, the process of getting there. And this is just. It's one of the tools to help you, especially for someone like that, that doesn't even know what that feels like or can be.

Yeah. And for those who aren't familiar with Paul Czech, I know a lot of both of our audiences are, but those who aren't, like, that's a huge endorsement. I mean, Paul has done so much work. He's experienced so many different things. And for him to try, feel free, have the great experience himself, and then recommend it to these people that he's working with who need to find that center, that sense of peace. Huh. I mean, that's about as good an endorsement as you could get.

Yeah.

He's the godfather of wellness. Man Fitness had Jack Lalanne. I mean, Paul's the godfather of wellness. So you're getting a stamp from the godfather of wellness, somebody that was talking about Swiss balls and holistic lifestyles 40 years ago.

Right.

So, I mean, there's. For people that are analytical or spiritual, this is for both. This is for, like the CEO that calls you and says, hey, I actually can focus more. Or even for the meditation teacher. Most people can't meditate. Let's be real. Most people don't know how to meditate because when they go to meditate, they're not in a physical state to be able to hold it. I'm sure this brings people to that kind of a state. Even if you were to microdose this, like I was even telling you at dinner, like, what if this was something people could put in a tincture? And we have. Do it throughout the day, we have.

Several of the girls in the office that just kind of sip it. You Know, through the day.

Yeah.

And that's. They get a. You know, there's. There's different ways to consume it. Um, you know, for most people, the first time that I. I recommend, first time you try it, that you do no more than a half a shot. Some people are more sensitive to the alkaloids and kavalactones than others. For most people, ultimately, the shot winds up being about the right amount. But I definitely would say first time to. To do a half a shot only. I mean, it's strong. That was part of the other process is in my quest for finding something for myself, I went out and started doing all these other euphorics and things that are on the market and CBDs and everything I get my hands on. And I would take them and I would like. I know it's good for me. Is something really going on? Maybe I feel something, maybe I don't. Well, one thing I can say about this is that I've not had anybody that took it that didn't say, wow, I definitely feel different. Within 15, 20 minutes, something's going on. I mean, even when you first sip it, you get that because of the.

The mouth goes kind of numb because.

Of the Novocaine effect, the kava, it immediately, you know, it's numbing your mouth out, and I think that's helping set the stage. So it's doing these things to wake your brain up and to say that this is coming. So it's not something that you're going to say, is it a placebo effect? It's definitely doing something.

It is. And again, I love the gentle takeoff too. There's no kind of weird come up where I've microdosed with, you know, LSD and mushrooms. And every now and then you get a little bit north of that micro and it feels a little jittery and you gotta kind of chill out for 30 minutes. But this is just like 10, 15 minutes. Oh, it's on, baby. But it's just very grounded. It feels very good. Can you share any of the things that you're working on right now, like the next kind of iterations?

Actually got a couple of the formulations that I'm working on. One that's more energizing than this and one that's more of a sleepy time. Again, because of the sleep issues that I've had in the past, and because so many people have reported to me about the sleep problems that they have, it's a huge problem in society for various reasons. I was looking for something that it was an all natural sleep aid that doesn't give you a hangover the next day and something, you know, that you could take, you know, every night. And I found a couple different strains along with some other plants and put them together in a formula and it's, it's incredible. It's a. You take it eight hours sleep, wake up, feel, you know, energized, away you go. And you can, you know, but we'll be releasing that within probably, probably between now and urine. At least one, maybe, maybe both those other formulations.

I've had too much melatonin. I don't know if you guys have ever experienced this where you take some like gyro melatonin or something, you have like a hangover the next day if you take too much melatonin. So it's nothing like that. Right. I'm sure that is melatonin in the product that you're developing or it's not.

It's not, no.

So this is completely plant derived. It is no pharmaceuticals whatsoever. Something that hit my heart really strong, not just last night and dinner, but in all conversations with most of my friends. And that is putting a dent in the coffers of the pharmaceutical industry. And I'm not here to like have a podcast about how bad pharmaceuticals are. Like, y' all can make your own decisions. I mean, the writing's on the wall as far as I'm concerned. But, but how do you see this growing in not just the United States, but I know you're in different countries in Brazil and like, this really has the capability to make a nice dent in really the ivory towers that have been suppressing the true plant medicines of the world.

Well, what I want is for people to have a choice. I want them to be educated and I want them to have a choice. Ultimately they're gonna do what they decide is best for them. But what I don't like right now is that for most people in the Western society is you're not given a choice or you're not exposed to a choice. So you go to the doctor again. The doctor's been classically trained to prescribe synthetic drugs. And you trust the doctor because you've been taught to trust the doctor. And I'm not saying they're evil people or anything, it's just the way the system is. And for most of a lot of these things is they're not a one time thing. They're drugs that are designed for you to take for the rest of your Life and usually 10 or 15 years later. We find out, oh, well, that does this or that does that. Other unintended consequences. Plus they're hard on your system. They create other physical issues. They're hard sometimes mentally. They change your chemistry, which creates depression and other things. And then, okay, I've got a solution for that. Next thing you know, you've got these boxes of pills that are arranged. You know, you got to take three of these and two of those and you know, and now you're mixing all those things together and no one's tested that, what those combinations are really doing. So not only do you have synthetics, you've got synthetics that were created by different people for different things that you're mixing together that, you know, there's no telling what all, you know, it's in it and it's, again, it's not a one time thing. They're getting you hooked on them for the rest of your life. And that's, that's to me, you know, it's, it's, it's just not right.

Everything in life to some degree has some addictive properties of exercise or even like I like to. I think I'm addicted to talking. I feel like that's why we podcast, you know.

Yeah, but no, you do a good job with it. When we're in social, I don't think you hog the conversation.

Right.

But, but there is a joy that it brings me.

Yeah.

To really?

Oh, I see. Yeah.

Yeah. So I feed off of the, like, I like to learn about people. I really do. I enjoy like when we podcast or just this conversation, like people listening to this, they want to learn stories too. We've lost the art of storytelling. We've lost the art of listening, you know, and so many people are just clouded by anger. And I feel it too. I'm angry at the pharmaceutical industry. I'm angry at the mask wearing. I have a lot of anger and I bet a lot of people watching and listening feel that too. And so since we're like, you know, cohabitating here with Wellness Force and Unlearn, what is one of the things from this product, from your journey that you've let go of that you've, in Cal's words, unlearned, I think I let go.

Of a big part of myself. I think, you know, there was a lot of who I was, you know, 15 years ago or so, that's. It's no longer, you know, it's no longer there. You know, my thought process about a lot of things has totally evolved. I used to pride myself on making Quick decisions and on. On anything. And I thought, you know, that's a. That's efficiency. And again, in my sabbatical, I forget the. I think it's called the Hour Between Dog and Wolf, a little book. And I forget who wrote it. But it talks about the new brain and the old brain, the reptilian brain, and how all that evolved and how those decisions that are made quickly, fight or flight, are made by the reptilian brain. And there's no real process. I mean, your brain is incredible because the new brain can store a tremendous amount of data. But it's extremely. It's actually extremely slow processor because it's running on low power. So when you make a quick decision like that, you're not really using all the knowledge that you have. You're using the flight or fight. You use. It's a more chemical and a lot of times it's wrong. And I think that was a lot of my decision making on decisions that are important decisions that I should have taken my time. A pure example of that. And in this book, he said, when someone sends you something like an email that makes you mad, respond to it immediately. But then take that and set it aside, come back the next day and read your response.

I like that.

That's a good one.

And I guarantee you, you'll look at that and go, what in the hell was I thinking? Because your immediate response is to either run or to attack. And mine was attack. You know, I would just immediately escalate it and I'd read it again, I'd read what they wrote, and it's like they weren't even attacking me. I thought they were, but they really weren't. And it's hard in written form sometimes to know the pure intent of someone. But I would totally go back and scrap that and rewrite it and have a pleasant experience on something that if. I guarantee, if I would have sent that it would have escalated into something that was ugly.

You would have brought another situation in that made you react even stronger.

Well, I would argue that you could just skip the whole thing, have a feel free, and the first time that comes through, you'll receive it how it needs to be received.

Come on now.

But, you know, I would also. There's a nuance to what you're talking about with this quick decision making. And I. And I'm just picturing like the decision being made up in the head. The rational mind is like judging where when we feel into our intuition or instinct, that can be a really quick decision. But that's like an inner knowing versus something that's trying to make all these calculations and what are all the iterations? And so I think when we're living up in the head, we do need to take our time, take a step back, zoom out, whereas there are so many decisions to be made with. Just how does that make me feel? Is that a yes or a no?

Well. And gut instinct.

Yes.

What this book talked about was the vagus nerve and how it connects into your stomach and how it sends signals back up to your brain. And that is all coming from the bacteria that's living in your stomach.

Yes. This is why at dinner I asked you about the enteric nervous system.

So. So if you're. If your body chemistry is off, if your body bacteria is off, and back to those synthetic drugs, they kill a lot of that bacteria. And in some cases, that never grows back unless reintroduced. And some of you can't even reintroduce that. It's off now, and that's creating these. It's thinking and in a. You know, in a universe of its own, and it's sending signals up to your brain, and those decisions that you're making quickly are only influenced by that.

Dude, what's the name of this book again?

The Hour Between Dog and Wolf.

This sounds really good.

You would enjoy it because it's. I can't think of the guy's name, but it was. He was a traitor.

Oh.

And the book is written for traders, and it goes into a lot about the difference between female and male traders and. And makes a strong argument that females can be, in a lot of cases, better traders than males can be.

Oh, that'd be interesting. Yeah.

But it's a. It's a short book of it. It's got some real gems.

Even better. Short book?

Yeah.

I mean, yeah.

Incredible.

You're speaking to Cal's heart, man.

Holy traders. Short book. Better traders than men. Like, I'm open to all of it.

So I'm, like, biologically driven because, you know, on wellness, first we talk about the physical and the emotional. And I'm thinking about the enteric nervous system. And in my research for the Breathe Breath and Wellness program that. That our community does the deepest work in. That's where we really meet each other, where we are. There is this enteric nervous system, and there is more axon terminals and dendrites in the. In the enteric nervous system than anywhere else in the whole body. Like, there is more stars. There's stars in the sky. There's stars inside of our enteric nervous system. It is the biggest, and I don't think it was actually. I think axons and dendrites are in the brain. I was talking about efferent, afferent nerves. That's what's in the enteric nervous system.

I would love for you to just 101 that for my listeners. I'm not familiar with the enteric nerve.

So I Learned this from Dr. Michael Ruscio, who's a great podcaster and he'd be amazing for you to meet as well. So shout out to Michael Ruscio. And he wrote a book called A Healthy Gut, Healthy You. And he talked about the dovetailing of the enteric nervous system with our central nervous system. And as you know, the fight or flight is connected to the sympathetic. And then the parasympathetic is where we digest and rest and where we love and where we're open. So what he explored was there is literally more messages coming to and from your enteric nervous system than any. It's the second brain than any other space on our body. So with the second brain connected to the primary brain, whatever is going on in the space between our stomach, our heart and our head, that literally dictates the quality of our life, how we show up, how we engage with people. So my curiosity with you was, and I've also explored this with Nuvana with their device, the Zen, where they use micro pulses of electricity down through the vagus nerve. How cool would it be, and I'm just planting a seed in your garden here. How cool would it be to do a long term study on vagus nerve activation, enteric nerve system activation, how it dovetails into the vagus nerve with breath work and with this product. I mean, that would be phenomenal, the kind of lives that could be changed by. I mean, that's synergizing those two things.

That's kind of the next phase of what I really want to do. Because I know especially as this continues to take off, it's going to be attacked. When you get to a certain point and you start cutting into market share of the synthetics that are out there.

You'Re going to be called a quack.

We call a quack. But they're going to say it's bad.

For you, you're killing people.

It's doing all this stuff. You have to be proactive and be ready for that. And the only way that you can do that is do the clinicals. It's costly and it takes a lot of time and all that. But I feel deeply about what the results of that will be. And it needs to be done. Because what I would hate to see happen is that it gets cut off before it really reaches the potential that I think that it really has. And that will happen if you're not prepared before it happened.

So you've been thinking about this for a year or so already.

Okay, so I've got a general idea of, you know, I wanted to make sure that it was something that, you know, looks like it's going to have, you know, real value, because again, it's a. It's an expensive and long process to set these clinicals up and to do all that. But I. I'm just now the point where I realize that it is something that is of real value. And because of that, I've started mapping out what I think the clinicals need to be and what they need to be about. And now the next phase is figuring out the right institution, the right people to do that so that again, it's recognized by anyone. It's not, because that's the first thing. The next thing they do is, well, you didn't use the right people or you didn't use the right process.

You paid them off, which happens.

You paid them off, or whatever. And so I want to make sure that we do this, we do it right. And I'm really excited about seeing the results of it, because I think what you're talking about is exactly what's going.

On, the synergy that happens even with cannabis. Some people microdose cannabis or like, you know, like you had said, you've microdosed psilocybin. There's radical benefits that not just Johns Hopkins are talking about, but, you know, you have a lot of medical facilities there. Dr. David Rabin's work and what he's doing with psychotherapy. And just so many the smartest people in the world are talking about how do we use plants, Synergize with breathing, synergize with sound therapy, with vibration therapy, acoustic therapy. Anything you could imagine that would blend us to be able to be again, more back in our center so we can just be more connected.

It's that. And the thing that, to me is differentiating about this is like cannabis, and I like cannabis, but when I consume, makes me feel more comfortable, but it also feels limiting. I'm not then wanting to go out and write a book or I'm not wanting to go really exercise harder than I would have before. Much like alcohol was. You feel like, well, now, should I be driving or should I do this? Or you get kind of off track. This does exactly the opposite. It enhances. So if I want to do it before I go work out, or if I want to do it like you talked about, doing a special project or whatever, I feel like more than what I was before, but at the same time now I have that social feeling and all that. And to me that's the best of all worlds. I've got something that's enhancing my life. It's not just making me feel good. Because normally with feeling good there's a negative side. It's a double edged sword. This is making me feel good and enhancing me at the same time.

Yeah, it checks a lot of boxes. It's fascinating. It really is. I mean, I was blown away when I started to really use it. It's like, wow. And I shared it with a lot of my friends, friends who have been microdosing with mushrooms and lsd. I'm like, look, I'm still a fan of that stuff and I think it's really beneficial. But this stuff's legal and you're not going to believe how good you feel. It has replaced microdosing for me. And so I'll just speak anecdotally on that. I'm a huge fan, which is why obviously I reached out to you. It's like I want to be a part of this if I can be, because I think it is gonna, it's gonna change. It's already has been changing people's lives, but I think there's a huge opportunity to. As this awakening is happening, people are starting to be open to these, you know, the plant medicines for sure, but they're hard to come by, they're illegal in many areas. And this doesn't have any of that, that kind of tension around it.

I find it so fucking fascinating that.

We need, we don't swear on my.

Podcast that we need so much scientific validation for how you feel. Like we know when we're not at peace, we know when we're not feeling good. But yet so many people, they, they've lost that intuitive nature. And you talked about this earlier, like intuition's more like a deep knowing, primal brain, ancient brain might be like a quick reaction. Most people are truly so disconnected from that that they just fucking rely on these studies as if science is a new God. Science is actually God. God doesn't exist. Science is our God. I mean, what do you feel about that?

Well, again, I think it's, you know, it's a system that starts from when you're a baby forward and it's ingrained now in society. And everyone is trained to perpetuate this system. And, you know, you don't know any better. I don't. I don't blame people for feeling that way because that is their reality. But that doesn't mean there's not another reality or several or like, fractal realities. Come on, let's go. So, and I think again, that was. That was a big part of. Of my process was realizing that, you know, there's not just one path. And just because everybody's marching down this path doesn't mean it's the right one. Yeah, but it also doesn't mean it may be the right one for some of them, but it doesn't mean it's automatically my right path.

Yeah, and I think what you're speaking to too, is people are waking up to that, like, oh, there is a different way. Oh, this actually makes me feel better. Oh, maybe that whole system, there is kind of major faults with it. And let's start to investigate that versus just taking it as gospel that we're supposed to do all these things.

There's just so much money involved in it.

This whole sick care system, it's astronomical.

And the government is regulating it and heavily involved in it and taxing it and everything else and getting a shit.

Ton of money from those at the top. And it's just this nasty cycle that people. Again, I think people are starting to become aware of it, but it's. There's such an entanglement there, which is why there's so much censorship with the people that we're really close with on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, because they're sharing the truth of their experience and those around them with these. Whatever it is. Right. We don't need to get into. I think people know the different reasons people are being censored, but it's largely driven by the advertisers on these platforms are like, I'm not gonna advertise my pharmaceutical ad if you've got some guy talking about whatever.

Kratom. It's back to what I said in the beginning, and it took me a while to figure this out. It all has to do with the ability to patent and to create a moat. You can't patent plants, so you can't create something that then you can charge astronomical prices for because nobody else can get it for a period of time or no else can produce it. And that's why they're going to default to those synthetics is that it's not because they're better, it's because they can make more money off of them. And that is the basis of the whole thing. That's what the whole thing was built off of. And I'm not saying that it was this sinister design, but that's what's happened.

Yeah. I think most things start out pure. I really do believe that most human beings are loving and good.

I think that scientists and researchers and stuff went in, you know, with a problem and tried to figure out ways to solve it. I don't think that they were thinking about, we're going to create this huge thing that's been created. I just think they were trying to solve a problem, much like what I was trying to solve a problem, but using, you know, natural plants to do it. But, you know, look what we've evolved into.

Yeah, well, you're a moral man. Would you consider yourself to be a spiritual man or a religious man? Because you have a moral edge to you?

I have a. I don't remember who the quote's from now, but it's. You know, religion is for those trying to stay out of hell. Spirituality is for those who've already been to hell.

Amen to that.

What?

Yes.

That is awesome.

So that should answer your question.

Okay. Yeah. Because it's a huge conversation that probably deserves, honestly, its own podcast series of its own. And that is Big Farmer's grip on what's really happening. And gosh, jw, like, what. What an honor to be able to just be a part of the sail attached to the ship. Because, man, we need this right now more than ever. Holy shit.

Like, I just.

It's just heartbreaking what I see in the world. And, like, we have got to have more ownership of our shadow.

I just. I have real gratitude for both of you and for others like you that are taking the time and effort and resources to create these platforms, to be able to let people, to educate people, at least give them an understanding that they do have choices, and then people can do what they need to do. It's in combination. They need to get healthy. It goes back to what we're talking about before. To have the right chemistry, to have the right blood chemistry and all that, to be able to make the decisions that they should make, they need to know. I mean, I think along the process, it's been, you know, it's like, why didn't somebody tell me this stuff? Why didn't somebody, you know, when I was young, why didn't I have learned this in school? Why didn't I, you know, why didn't somebody teach me this? Why Did I have to go find it myself? Because these are fundamental things. I mean, like the old brain, new brain. Why wouldn't they teach that earlier in school? That's a fundamental thing to understand. Because a big part of the suffering in life is people running around making quick decisions and they're going, well, why do I keep making bad decisions? Well, you're making bad decisions because you're not using your brain the way that, the power that it has to be used and because your body chemistry's off. You know, you can't make good decisions that way.

No. And not to make this a rant about the school system, but.

Rant?

Dude, this is what you're talking about. Like why aren't we reading this book? Right? When we're in school, we are indoctrinated into this system that keeps us dumb. And it's important to learn history, but I mean, you fucking so much about history. So kids are spending all this time on math and whatever it is where they're not learning any damn life skills. Nothing.

Exactly. And I'm not saying there's not a reason to learn all the other two, but why not incorporate some of this into it and have a well rounded education versus in a lot of cases, again, I don't think this is a sinister thing. The people that are teaching don't know. That's.

No, that's right.

So it just perpetuates itself.

No, for sure. That's what they were taught.

They don't know themselves.

That's what we were taught.

I'm gonna say it again. I've said it 15,000 times. It's Alan Watts talking about parents that teach their children to have the same lifestyle disconnection to teach their children. It's all wretch and no vomit. No one ever throws up the sinister ways of being that were passed down to them, you know, generational trauma, Generational stupidity is the gift that keeps on giving.

I've never heard this generational stupidity.

Feel into that though, like. Like we continue to learn things that aren't of service, that are disconnected from the truth of the world and ourselves, and we fucking pass them on to our children.

Well, you have that, you know, ignorance is bliss. But I would argue with that. I mean, it's creating a lot of suffering and a lot of issues because people don't know, right?

And they don't know.

They don't.

I mean, it's like they don't know that.

They don't even know.

They don't know.

And that's not bliss.

So for them, it's bliss.

If you're suffering, that's not bliss.

Right.

So I would argue with that statement.

In some cases, do you get triggered or what do you feel about the phrase wake up when you say we're waking up or people need to wake up? Some people get triggered by that phrase. I mean, what does that even mean to you?

No, it just depends. It depends on the energy behind it. It's like, hey, man, like, we're. We're all in this process of waking up. We're all in a different stage of it with, you know, and it's not linear. It's very dynamic. Yeah, I don't. I don't get triggered by it. I think if someone was being an asshole about it, I'd probably get triggered by it.

I think that's why. Because. Because, like, you know how JW doesn't like the phrase adaptogen because it got abused? I think the phrase waking up or you need to wake up is somehow been bastardized as well.

Oh, sure.

I could see people that overuse it in the spiritual world.

Easy way to attack it, though, is to put it all in one category and say, those are a bunch of kooks.

Right. Or that's even. And I love jp, but he's like the woke speak and all that kind of stuff. Like, I think that he brings a beautiful energy to personal development. I think he brings some lightness, you know, but at the same time, a lot of the things that are platitudes that, that we see, like love is all there is, they're true, but they're out in plain sight for all of us to see. I think we all know that we're waking up and that we need to wake up more. But even the general phrases that we use that are grounded in truth are somehow used against us by mainstream narrative with their special interests and their special intentions. So we're in an interesting time, man. And my only hope is from this conversation that everyone watching and listening has been moved in some way and has felt like, okay, I'm gonna go look at some of the resources JW talked about, and I'm gonna listen to these podcasts and actually embody some of the wisdom that was shared. Because you could step away from the show and do nothing, or you could step away from the show and do something incredibly life changing. I mean, the choice is up to all of us.

You're here today.

That's the beauty of it. We do have the choice.

That's the choice. That's the path of victimhood or Victor. So we covered a lot of ground, man. Is there anything that you think we missed when we look at freedom? That's really what I was feeling from this conversation is like this recipe to live life free, to feel free as we live.

That's another interesting thing, is the name. I came up with the name and everyone, the marketers, all that, they said, you can't do that, you shouldn't do that, you just can't do that. I'm like, to me, that's what it made me feel. And feel free can mean a lot of different things. Feel free from pain, feel free from stress, feel free from this or that or whatever. And to me, that was all encompassing. And then you have this whole thing with the FDA of you can't make claims without the clinicals behind it. But it was a way for me to say it can do all these things for you and not be pigeonholed into something. I thought it was a very appropriate name.

You nailed it. You really did. My guru in that area, Kevin, who you met out in la, was like, dude, his packaging is awesome. There's an elegance to it. There's something very kind of nature based, but it's very classy and I love the color of the blue bottle. I know you get new bottles coming out pretty soon, so I'm excited for those crack, a few of those puppies. But yeah, thank you for being here, man. And thanks for sharing not just the feel free story, but your story. There's so much medicine in there for everybody listening. Whether it was your battle with alcohol, your feelings that the trappings of success were exactly that, and that just because you have a bunch of money doesn't mean that your life is fulfilling and it doesn't mean you shouldn't try for that. I'm not saying that, but just understand that it's not going to be it.

Exactly.

And Josh, would you mind sharing with the fine folks how they can get their hands on some Feel free?

Yeah, man. I'm just really. I know this word gets said a lot, but, like, the true essence of gratitude is really what I feel for what you're doing. It's been a long time since I've been like, excited about a product. You know, I get products thrown at me every week and they don't really do too much. And so, you know, thank you for honoring the earth and with what you're doing and giving people a starting place. Because I just want to share with everyone, like, if you're drinking a lot, if you're smoking cigarettes. If you're buying shit you don't need, just know that that's your body trying to heal itself. That's your mind trying to heal itself. And do something that'll still give you that same essence, that same feeling, but do it in a healthy way. And so you can do it with this. And you just go to wellnessforce.com feel free. And JW gave you 20% off, which is pretty amazing. So what a blessing to be able to meet with you and to be able to have this connection and please you guys share this podcast with everyone you know. Anybody that's suffering with something where they're pulled away from themselves, where they're not in their center, this is a starting point. So thank you, jw. Thank you, Cal, for hosting again and for co hosting the podcast.

Dude, this was dope. Thanks for doing this.

Until all of us see you again on either the Great Unlearn or on Wellness Force, we're wishing you so much love and wellness. We'll talk to you soon.

Much love.

Sam.