Kelly Brogan MD | How To Love ALL Your Parts + Be Self Sovereign

What is the recalibration that you've done in yourself to be the fierce and the humble and also to learn how to love our parts?

It's owning my shit and taking radical responsibility for my experience. This is, like, where sovereignty can manifest in a very mundane way. The opportunity to say, I'm actually responsible for my experience. No one else is. It starts with imagining that somebody should not do or do or, like, make me feel a certain kind of way through their choices. To see that has been really helpful for me, you know, to see how many people feel that I should do differently or be differently, you know, in order for them not to have to dislike it. One of the cardinal elements of a sovereign mindset is exercising your power of choice. That is the opportunity for me to get real with myself and to say with sober mind, sober heart, what are my choices here? And can I interact with this painful process without needing the individuals that I am in dynamic with to be bad and wrong? What if they're not bad and wrong? And yet I still get to choose? I have all sorts of choices, and I would never be aware of those choices if my energy was focused on being right about how wronged I've been.

Kelly, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you.

This has been a cool time for me since 2020. I was reflecting this morning in the sauna space and I was thinking about this, like, wow, death and rebirth. Death and rebirth for me, for you, for all of us. And, you know, you've gained some people, you've lost some people, but, like, I gotta tell you, like, I've always been there, you know, ever since. Ever since 2016. And, like, hearing your truth and now, you know, with you being like, the pole dancer and the honorary member of the information, disinformation doesn't.

The information doesn't. I like that.

I like the information doesn't. The real information doesn't. But, you know, since 2020, holy shit, like, there has been a cyclone of change for so many of us. But. But you yourself, you know, one thing I've. I've really respected even reading your book, own yourself and understanding, like, what it really takes to be sovereign, in my opinion. Let's start here. There has never been a more important time, but also a more challenging time to be sovereign. And even this question of, like, sovereignty, like, what does it take? How do we gather, apply, and then, you know, most importantly, embody the things that are necessary for us to actually be sovereign, like, to. To feel it, to wear it. So maybe take us through one or two of the most challenging things that have actually been an attack on Your sovereignty since 2020, in the Middle of the pandemic, when you and I podcasted last. Let, let's start there.

I know I'm on a good podcast. When pandemic is just how it goes.

That's, that's where we're at.

I've literally never uttered the word without.

The L. When people say pandemic, I'm like, I'm like. You mean plan, right?

Excuse me. Yes, exactly. So, yeah, I mean, I think it's, it might be helpful to zoom out a little bit to even sort of lay the groundwork of what we're talking about when we're speaking to this concept of sovereignty. Because I think certainly in the health freedom world and in the truther movement, whatever that means, there is this lust for freedom. And my own personal experience was that as an activist for, I don't know, a decade, mostly in the anti pharmaceutical world, when the shit hit the fan in 2020, I had done, I guess, a sufficient amount of inner work to know that my activation inside around what was going on and my fear and my upset and my indignation and my righteousness were an invitation for me to look inside, right? And what I found was that I have maybe had a lot of the qualities that I was condemning in these really fictitious entities. Because most of us, when you really look at it, can recognize that government and medicine and Illuminati and the they with a capital T, there's no such thing. It's a fictitious concept. It's always person to person, right? It's always one individual. You interact with the government through one IRS agent, right? There's one police officer, right? One person knocking at your door. It's a person to person, man to man, man to woman dynamic. And it serves us to project onto these big screens when we really are invested in remaining in what I refer to as victim consciousness because it's meeting our needs, because it's serving us. And when I chose to take a look inside, I found a lot of areas of my life where I was exercising totalitarian. I know better than you do you know what you need to do for your life or your child's life, or my own child's life, for example, and authoritarian energy. I even re recorded all of the videos, 44 days of videos in my program Vital Mind Reset. Because I started to look at the videos and I started to get a feeling, feeling of this shadowy kind of power over energy. And I changed some elements of my mothering approach you know, I stopped telling my kids to eat the broccoli on their plate or clean their room. Even though I have had a very otherwise like, libertarian approach to parenting. There was just subtle ways that I was implying that I know better than they do what their bodies need, for example. And so when we choose to examine what we're getting out of the oppositional posture towards an authority that we have vested power in, right? So we decide that, you know, the FDA or the CDC or whatever it is, the monolith of allopathic medicine has power and should do things differently. Right. So I call it the erotic caress of the enemy. The way that we become obsessively distracted by that which is occurring and unfolding in the realm of enemy territory. Right. So you're waiting for all the headlines and what's Fauci doing now? And, you know, what's Gates up to? And all these funny characters and players.

It can kind of be a kink in a way.

Almost exactly. It's a kink.

It elicits that feeling.

It is. And I spent many, many years, you know, deriving arousal from that kink space. And it was a distraction, you know, from deeper inner work that I elected to begin to do around the same time. So around this opportunity, you know, that presented itself in 2020 for all of us, you know, to. To choose one lane. Right. So are you going to focus on what needs to change in order for you to feel okay in the world on the outside, or are you going to focus on the inside job first? And I. I took the bait for, I would say, like, six months, and then I made a. A personal shift.

What do you mean? Took the bait of.

Of like, you know, imagining that I am somebody who needs to inform others. Right. And imagining that I'm an important voice in the conversation and I better write the blogs and do the videos and make sure that I help people interpret what's going on in the world, because otherwise they might be lost. Right. And. And so so much of the shadow of activism is the dwelling in the rescuer angle of the triangle, which really, in many ways. Right. So for people who don't know, there's the victim, this is the Cartman triangle. There's the victim, which is the poor me. This is horrible. I hate this, you know, no fair kind of energy. Then there is the villain, which is, of course, what it sounds like. And then there's the rescuer. And the rescuer seems like such a benevolent space to hold. It's like philanthropic and altruistic, and, you're just there to help. And the shadow of that is, of course, the reification of the victim's powerlessness. Right? So if you swoop in to pay your friend's rent, you know, for her, because she's really down and out and can't afford, you know, to pay it this month, well, that sounds lovely. Right. But the reification is that she actually can't sort it out herself. She can't create out of the void, which we all can, Right. And that without your very specific help, she would be in deep trouble. And the truth is that these parasitic energies require, you know, in the truther world, it's called louch, right? They require, you know, this, this, this energetic harvesting of that victim energy. Right? And so the truth is that the rescuer never really wants the victim to be rescued because then they would be of a job. And so this codependency. And of course the villain becomes the victim, you know, just through a lens shift. It's a very sick place to rest. And I would argue that all of us are enculturated around this, these dynamics and also are, are literally like our somatics are habituated to what it feels like to, to enjoy the arousal. It's, it's really that because it's like a rush.

I could feel that in my belly when you were describing it like the triangle. And the only reason it perpetuates is because we unconsciously participate inside of it. This podcast is supported by your support and by the support of our sponsor, Organifi. My friend Drew Canole, many years ago had a vision to make the best tasting green adaptogenic morning energy bursting drink with all the phytonutrients and actually have it taste great. And to date, it is the best green drink. Well, actually it's the only green drink that I'll ever drink. I don't like any of the rest of them. They all kind of taste like grass that's been sitting in the sun. I really mean this. Like this juice is the best tasting juice. You gotta try this. They give a 30 day money back. You most likely won't give it back because it's super tasty. It's gone through this huge, beautiful organic certification process and also a taste testing process. 99% of green juices out there are horrible. Most green drinks taste like grass clippings. But if you head to JoshTrent.com Organifi and use the code WellnessForce, Drew gave you 20% off. It is a grandfather deal. We baked in years ago. This best tasting Green juice out there. Go to joshtrent.com organifi and get this green juice. Pick up the red, pick up the gold, pick up a whole bunch of products that are all organic, all tasty, and all wholesome that'll actually be good for the cells. Way deep down in your body, you'll be ecstatic about what you see and how you feel. Joshtrend.com Organifi use the code WellnessForce. You get 20% off.

Yes.

And the ways that we participate, you know, God bless them, they come from mom, dad, grandparents, society, caregivers, so it's not to shame them. I'm not here to be like, oh, you know, they should have known better. It's like we get to know differently.

That's the. That's the opportunity we get to know.

So you're not better, we're not better. It's just more like with this new awareness comes some pretty severe responsibility.

Right.

Because if we don't do anything with that responsibility, then it kind of, for lack of a better term, slaps our ancestors in the face.

Yes. And that's, I think, what a lot of us are feeling in this moment is, is, you know, that we are actually on stage, the hot lights are on us, and. And it's time to deliver the monologue. Right. And the truth is that it's, at least from my perspective, it's actually quite simple to exit. And you will understand this because you mentioned responsibility. It's just about reclaiming the power of your choice. And I think one of the. What I've learned is one, and I'm still practicing this, trust me, every day. One of the cardinal elements of a sovereign mindset is exercising your power of choice without needing someone to be bad or wrong in order to lay claim to that. Right. So in the past 72 hours, I've had, like, a number of. I don't know what's up in your life, but something's up in mine. I've had a number of shifts and.

Like, I'm a new parent, so there's always something up in my life.

Amazing. Yeah, it's just been a funny, funny couple of days because I've had, like, in. In the real estate world, in a. In a very dear friendship, in. In my life. And then in my business, I have had, you know, an opportunity to recognize where I am, as I call it, trying to buy eggs from the hardware store where I am sourcing something that's really not available and kind of like semi insisting that it should be. And that can lead to Ruptures, right? Where you sort of both parties are seeing like something is not working here.

Yes, yes.

And that is in. In my spiritual worldview, you know, that is the opportunity for me to get real with myself and to say with sober mind, sober heart, sober eyes, what are my choices here? And can I interact with this painful process without needing the individuals that I am in dynamic with to be bad and wrong? What if they're not bad and wrong? And yet I still get to choose? I get to choose to exit. I get to choose to express my needs. I get to choose to make requests. I have all sorts of choices, and I would never be aware of those choices if my energy was focused on being right about how wronged I've been. And that's the bait that we can take. So when you said, you know what, what did I mean by taking the bait? I did take the bait in the early part of the pandemic where I. And that's how I probably made it on that illustrious list because I. I needed everyone to know how right I was about how wronged we all were.

That's so honest. It's so honest because people probably felt it differently than your awareness now. They were probably thinking and feeling from you, oh, she's taking care of us. Not, oh, she's in her righteousness.

Because they're also in their victim consciousness. And that's fine. It's a match. You know, it's just that I left the allopathic system. I was a match for that in my consciousness and my belief system as a victim. And then I just sort of like subtly transition. I greenwashed it. Right. And I subtly transitioned it into the activism space and, you know, had grew a huge following and had a lot of success because there's a lot of folks in that consciousness. Right. And there still are. And as I've transitioned into wherever it is that I'm transitioning, which is to really focus on my inside work and to begin to explore the edges of sovereignty and just sort of dip a toe in. I certainly wouldn't describe myself as a sovereign woman. I'm just learning what that means. But my sense is that it is really non referential. Right. It's not, it's non oppositional. It's not that I am against and it's not that I'm not against. Right. It's just that it's like irrelevant.

There's a space in between, though, because love protects children. Like, if somebody attacked your daughters, you would defend, but you're not welcoming that attack. You're just defending if it comes by. So there's the other side of that where we're in constant hyper vigilance and defense mode, where it really, like nature abhors a vacuum, attracts those kind of experiences to us. Go into that a little bit. That's important.

Yeah, that's, that's, you know, I don't pretend to be a law of attraction expert by any stretch, nor am I even thoroughly a believer.

I think it's the most misabused, misunderstood thing out there. Loa. I mean, people make lots of money on YouTube with it, but I don't know if people really get the essence of what it is, like how to embody that.

Yeah, I mean my, my sense is that it can also be a distraction to imagine that there's like some kind of special ritualized way to get what you want instead of recognizing that every single thing that is happening that you don't like or you don't want, and maybe this is at the heart of it, I don't know. But is an opportunity. I just call it enter through the upset. Like any single thing I don't like about my day or about an interaction or about a direction that my life is going in for me is an opportunity to meet a part of myself. And I'm very, very passionate about internal family systems, parts work, family constellation work. Because I have met dimensions of myself that would otherwise have remained arrested behind a shame wall probably for the rest of my life. And the truth is that everyone can feel your shame. Right. Like you're only as empowered as your darkest secret. And it's felt, you know, it's felt. And that's why our, like, what it is to be like in a room together, like what it is to be with someone, what their physical appearance, how it manifests it, it shifts as we begin to de secret these aspects of ourselves and really to our own awareness. Right. Like that is the, the all seeing eye is really like our own. Our own conscious awareness, our own masculine energy, if you will.

We absolutely get to go into ifs and Schwartz. But can we go back like to that juxtaposition where on one side, you're the mother protecting her children, I'm the father protecting my children. And then also we don't want to be in vigilance mode to the CDC and the doctrines and dogma that's coming down from a place of fear itself.

Yeah.

So how do we manage those two?

So I have found. Right. So in, in 2016, there was a barrage of death threats that I experienced like on social media, On Facebook at the time, before I was uninvited to.

Play on Facebook from the Rogan podcast.

No, actually, it was, it started with home birth article that I wrote, believe it or not.

Right? That's right.

Super funny and weird or not. And it was a bunch of pharma subsidized quote, unquote feminist groups. And it's interesting how I've come through this arc of understanding feminism as a construct, but nonetheless, it was, you know, Jezebel and a bunch of other outlets, and there were like, memes with aerial shots of my home in New England at the time and yeah, death threats. It was pretty intense. And, um, and even for me, because I, I don't, my feathers aren't easily ruffled. And that moment I remember, I remember laying out in my backyard one day in desperation, crying and just pleading to something, somewhere, you know, for my kids, thinking like, wow, I've, I've really fucked up. Is it okay if I say that?

Absolutely.

This is part of my integration is.

Like, this is a safe space.

I have major potty mouth. And most people do not not know I have a body mouth because I've been a good girl on public platforms for many, many years. And now I think you can still.

Be a good girl and curse.

It's just how I am. All my friends know this and they're like, you have a, a double Persona because you go on and you never say that anyway. So, yeah, I, I, I worried that I had, I had really up and I had generated the conditions from my children's endangerment. Now everybody knows where we live and blah, blah, blah, all of that. And that catapulted me into a. There were, it was a confluence of factors, but I was brought into a phase of my life where I began to work on my childhood experiences and really be honest with myself about what they were and start to disclose to relevant parties, you know, what my experience had been decades earlier, et cetera. And it was the beginning of the next chapter of my life. And so since that time, I have not, you could say, attracted like, similar energy even making this list or whatever, you know, the hell happened when I was running my mouth. I don't worry about anything. I haven't, Nobody's bothering me. Nobody's hunting me down, like, nobody's threatening me. And somehow it doesn't feel dangerous for me. I don't know. The world does not feel dangerous to me. And my understanding of that is, even through the psychoneurologic lens of this concept of Neuroception, Right. So how can I sufficiently gain access to my own fight or flight Freeze fawn apparatus. Understand it well enough to know when I may be misperceiving what's actually going on on the outside, when I may be seeing a pil of laundry and think that there's a boogeyman in my bedroom about to attack me. And so resolving neuroception into an accurate barometer of what's actually happening out in your environment, out in your world can help you to make wise choices and to exercise discernment. And I do think that that's a non mystical way to explain why you, you may have fewer experiences that line up with the world is dangerous. They're out to get me, they're going to knock down my door and shove needles in my kids bodies. Which of course is you know, every activist's greatest fear in the health freedom space. And I think I can make that statement. And so I, at the beginning of the pandemic was very, very focused on one thing which was masks. For me, that layer of the psyop, it just cut to the core and I have some theories around what that ritual meant to me as a woman with my mother line of abuse and just this subtle but very insidious and powerful muzzling. It was such a hard line for me. I've never worn a mask ever. Never. I mean back in my hospital days, but no, not one time, the whole time. And in fact I feel like, I don't know, maybe I can say this publicly. All right, I will. I flew to Austin a couple of times at the tail end of mask requirements and I have, hopefully this won't be offensive to anybody because I really don't intend for it to be. But I've been exploring different archetypes and I have been playing into different characters and acting and improv and all of this stuff. And I have a girlfriend who one of my best girlfriends who is, has been very seriously exploring Islam like for her own personal practice. And I was like I we're going to fly to this event in Austin and you know, I'm not doing the medical exemption thing because it's not true. And not that I'm like opposed to like playing the system or anything like that, but I also don't want to be like the only one like not wearing a mask and then 100 flight attendants like telling me to put one on and just felt tedious, it didn't feel exciting. And so, so I decided with her, with her support to wear a niqab like Basically a full burka. Yeah, I went in costume.

I love this.

And it was honestly one of the most exhilarating experiences I've had. Not only because I gamified the experience, but also because I bought a really pretty one and also because I got to explore what it is to wear it for the reasons that it's culturally and religiously practiced in my understanding, which is to obscure and render private dimensions of my feminine energy. And I got to really play with that as I am really deep in the exploration of polarity play and, you know, what it. What it is to have my energy open through my eyes or like, close through my eyes. Anyway, so I did that a couple of times and it was great.

Did you feel liberated by that?

I felt exhilarated. Like, it was just fun and meaningful as an exploration.

What a cool trick.

I have not. I have not shared that.

That's amazing.

But so, yeah, so I've not worn one. And I made it law in my, you know, with my. My baby daddy, co parent and my girls that they would never wear one. And my girls are also of an age where they are now beginning to self initiate to their own responsibility, authority and agency over their own female bodies. So it was a very tough line for me to walk, to, I guess, convey the message that I know better than they do, that they should not participate in this no matter what. Because I think it's pretty clear that most children are wired for compliance and obedience, including my own, and that they would have probably opted to, you know, throw on a mask to go to the library or whatever here and there and not understood why it was participation in a ritual, occultist ritual that I was unwilling to offer my children to.

I went through 16 months of like, the Hawkins Ladder, just anger, anger, anger. Took me so long to get up to acceptance. I remember I'd be in a car driving to the airport and there'd be a woman next to me with two masks on in her car alone. And I would just get rageful. It like, bubble up from my solar plexus, like, what the fuck are we doing? And then I had to go through a lot of that. I was posting, like, proudly, unvaccinated on social media and just like. And all these people, like in droves, like thousands of people commenting. And I'm just like, what am I doing here? Like, this is not. And it wasn't until I interviewed Zach Bush in the middle of it all, and he said something that stuck with me and I feel it from you too. I think this is wisdom. This is like universal wisdom for all of us. You cannot love and push against something. In order to really love yourself and others, you have to just stand for what you love. You cannot push and fight and skirmish against something on a continuous basis because you actually just feed the dragon in the cave of that thing. And that was such a mental construct that I had to let seep in that it took me another six months before I just stopped with the whole anger thing publicly. And now I truly am at that place of compassion. You know, occasionally it bubbles up or I'm like, what the fuck? You're still wearing a mask in the grocery store. It's 2023, y'.

All.

But I totally resonate with what you're saying, and I know my audience does too, because we have all gone through waves of expression of our really sacred anger from that protection place. It was kind of masked and covered up at times by the projection of us being righteous or do gooding. But I think at the core of it, what I feel from you, and I know it was in my own life, the whole reason we even moved to Austin is because Carrie got pregnant. We were watching a sunset in Encinitas. A cop rolls up on us with no one around, and he's like, hey, you need to wear a mask. And I knew in that moment, we were done. We were done with San Diego, we were done with California. How do you. What do you make of that? You know, with your psychiatry background and also just being a mother, being a woman who's teaching sovereignty on a global scale, like, there's a lot of energy around you in this narrative. Like, what do you make of being sovereign, coming from a true place of loving and defending but not attracting that bullshit? How do we do that? What do you make of that?

Yeah, yeah. So I totally resonate with the. The phase of anger. I did a year with a girlfriend of mine who is a teacher of OSHO practices. I did a year of what's called dynamic meditation every single week, which is a cathartic practice that, you know, OSHO handed down. And it involves, like a lot of wild energy, expression and screaming and kind.

Of like what we saw in Wild, Wild country, the Netflix documentary.

Oh, I haven't seen it.

Oh, you gotta watch it. That'll rock the world with osha.

Yeah, I'm sure it was. I actually heard a little bit about it, but I'm sure it's represented there. Yeah, I mean, it's like really nutty looking. You basically become like your archetype of a crazy person. For an hour and you just embody that. And it was. I just moved. So much anger. And the truth is that, you know, most people understand that anger is a more adaptive emotional space than whatever is beneath it, right? So there is always something beneath it and it's usually fear, could be sadness or grief. And so, you know, I've had of course, the same experience of seeing the double mask in the car, you know, next to me. And there is again, at least from my perspective, an opportunity. Right? Like, why is that upsetting? Right? Like what am I making that mean? And I might be making it mean that I am, I am unsafe in the world because there aren't enough people sharing my reality. And this person represents whatever that level of actually existential unsafety is for me. And what am I really worried would happen if there were so many of them that I was isolated into my own little reality without validation from anyone else around me? Well, that feeling is something I can probably track back to my entire childhood and most of us can. The insecurity of maintaining, holding and experiencing your reality as separate from those around you. And we didn't learn that that's actually totally okay, right? Because we had potentially well meaning caregivers who demanded enmeshment and who demanded that our reality conform to theirs, otherwise we would lose security, approval and connection. And so we, we are now in this space where we feel actually threatened on like this deep, deep level that's not commensurate with our actual, with the actual risks in our lived life and our lived experience. We feel that not sharing a reality with somebody near us is actually an existential threat and it's simply not true. So we have this opportunity to recognize that we're having a whole experience, you know, it's somebody else just doing their thing that is an opportunity for us to get to know, you know, pieces of us that were left back in the day. And so I these days interact with most of my indignation was like a real feeling for me, right? Like it was prevalent defining feature of like those first, I would say like year and a half, two years. And it actually of a lot of my life. Like indignation is like where I rest a lot of the time. It's like, you know, I guess like the tagline. And I, I found that there's always a dimension of myself that I'm projecting if I'm judging someone as being like stupid or naive or gullible. Like there is a part of me that is stupid, naive and gullible that I have Almost no intimacy with. Because I'm very blended, very identified with the part of me that gets it right, that is like, has intellectual rigor. And I. I don't have intimacy with that part. And that part exists, trust me. You know, she's down in the corner and longing for my attention and bringing these opportunities for me to attend to her through my experience of judgment in others. And so whether it's judgment or whether it's just this sense of you doing, you masked lady in the car next to me, I hate that. And I need you to stop. So I need you to change. So how often do we need something to change right on the outside? And that insistence again, I call trying to buy eggs from the hardware store. It's not only not possible, you weren't invited, it's not your business. And it is just fomenting emotional energy that is costing a lot in the vital force spectrum, and it's really just not worth it. So when you can reel that in, um, and maybe recognize, like, I like to refer to it as like, blameless futility, right? Like, maybe recognize where in your life there's like, there's nothing. Just like, don't bother. Like, there's nothing. Like, are you really gonna ha. Send those papers to your family member who wants to take the jab? Like, I mean, maybe it's worth it because everybody deserves exposure to information. But make sure to have their consent, you know, before imposing your savior ness on them. And. And really make a sober assessment of whether or not in your bones you think that they are open or is this futile? And if it is futile, then how can you recognize that without blame?

It's a beautiful perception. And really this projection that you put out there with, like, coming from a place of love and not making the woman in the car with the double mask your issue, your problem by just loving her and accepting her. But then there's also this really interesting dark place that I've explored where. And I even felt it, my body just talking about it right now, where unless that person does exactly what I think. And this is in my relationships, my own life, my. Even my son. Like, I wish he would sleep throughout the night. Like, projecting my. Onto people in the middle of that. I feel like there's this beautiful razor edge of also doing what is objectively loving. There's an objective loving space where we protect, and then there's also this subjective place where we project. So I'm really interested in that. And I feel like there's just a tiny bit more that we can Go into on that, because you had a great way that you described it. But how do you make sense of that in your own soul? How do you make sense of that place between projection and judging that someone should be how you want them to be versus actually being in the objective space of love that could protect or would defend?

So there's like, a little equation I've come up with, which is that judgment plus choice equals discernment, right? So when you recognize that you don't like something, so you're judging it, right? And you can see that you have choices, right? So you're actually taking responsibility for what you can control, then you can exercise discernment, which is basically like, does this work for me or does it not work for me? And it helps us to smoke out where it is that we are power overing. And it's never more relevant than in the arena of parenting, right? So we can even just dive into that, because I have found that the most nuanced layers of my development and maturation, emotional maturation, have come through these little moments in my mothering where I can thankfully generate some degree, a modicum of awareness to see, oh, I'm doing that. That power over that. That, like, bad Dom, you know, that. That authoritarian thing that I don't really like on the world. This is it, right? So it can be like, the other day I was online with my. My younger daughter, who's 12, and she said to me, mama, I really like that woman's outfit. And I turned around, and I see this probably lovely lady wearing, like, literally the most boring outfit I've ever seen. Like, it was literally, like, jeans and a white tank top. And I said. I was like, oh, well, that's pretty basic. That was my response to my daughter's invitation into her world. And then I was like, oh, fuck. I have a million of moments in my mothering. And the beauty of parenting, in my opinion, and I think you'll agree, is there's no statute of limitations. You can always go back. I mean, just think about it. If you have a family member who you feel wronged by, and four decades later, they come to you and they say, you know what? I was thinking about that thing that happened, and I'm really sorry. You would accept that deeply into your heart at any moment until you die. So anytime you can get right with yourself, you go back and you take responsibility. That's my recommendation. That's my advice. Not to you personally, but just in general and to myself.

We'll take it.

And to myself, yeah, so what I could have done in that moment is take the opportunity to smoke out my fear, which is my daughter is different than me for the same reasons we were just talking about. And anytime that fear is driving the car, I am in the transgressive energy of a perpetrator, of a villain, in her experience. Not intentionally, but that's actually what's happening. And that is the same energy of the feds knocking on the door with their pointy needle. So what I could have said in that moment was, oh, what do you like about it? That's it. That's the mature response. What I did do was the immature response. Right. So what do you like about it? Tell me. What you like about it is I actually am curious about your reality. I want to learn more. And even though it may be totally different from mine, I'm visiting. I'm going to cross the little bridge and visit with yours so that we can remain connected in our sovereign dimensions. And in simple examples like that or bigger ones, where your child actually has a story about you as a parent that paints you in a light you do not like. Yeah, how can you hold that? How can you be actually the emotionally mature individual in the room who can hold the swirl inside of yourself of what it is to feel bad and wrong in the eyes of somebody that you deeply care about and allow them their experience, even if you don't like it? That is like the basic fundamental of sovereign parenting and raising sovereign children. And it has nothing to do with what I thought it did, which is like, you know, making sure that my kids know all the things. Right? So my. My eldest daughter is almost 14, and she. This series we were talking about that I have called the Sovereignty series, she actually. I paid her to edit the transcripts. She edited the transcripts, okay. She's like a savant, and she knows the things, okay? She knows the things. She gets it. For a lot of kids in their generation, it's just honestly, like, intuitive. And it's almost intuitive to the point where it's not even interesting. And they kind of would still rather play the normie game on some level because it's more fun.

But do you feel like that's. Because that's in your chamber of awareness that you're saying that? I mean, if you go higher in the United States and look down, do you feel it's the same way?

Well, no, I think that if you don't. If you don't mess with your kids, they will intuitively understand the truth, if.

That makes sense, just by Seeing your way of being, you mean?

Yeah, just sort of. Because they're like, oh, yeah, you know, I've, I've like, you know, she's like watched Harry Potter and like seeing the Ministry of Truth, like these concepts of like controlled information.

Yes.

It's like, okay, yeah. And, you know, it's not the way it is for older generations, like mine, where it's like, we're really like grieving. Like, wait, I thought it was a good mommy and daddy and. Are you really telling me they lied about absolutely everything? Yeah, like, I just, I witness in, in their generation. It's almost like, like the piss has been taken out of it. Like, it's just kind of like it's not. It doesn't have the emotional valence that there is deception in our midst. I don't know really how else to articulate it, but the truth is, you know, she sees, she sees, she's aware, she understands. And that's not what my role is. It's not to inform her or them. And I thought it was. I still think it is. Like, I still feel it's really essential, you know, that she understand what I'm discovering, you know, through my friends and colleagues is, is not true because I'm very focused on what's not true, right? So myth busting. I don't know what is true. I don't know really why people get sick. I have some ideas, you know, I don't really know, you know, what the nature of this realm is. I don't really know, you know, what our history is as, you know, a species. I have a growing sense of what isn't true. And that's most of what I collect in these interviews. And the sovereignty that I can expose her to is really around emotional security. How can I create the conditions for emotional security so that she can access her own discernment in the moment, Right? Because we know people who have followed us down this path of truthing and they get to one point of it and they're not coming with you anymore, right? Or some topic comes up and in within the truth community, right? Whether it's like the virus in therapy, oh my God, that's a benign one. Or it's like virus. No virus. Or flat earth, round Earth or whatever it is. And you get to this point and then there's hysteria, right? But you're like, dude, I thought we were going here. And, and there's some reason that you're captured in different dimensions of one Hegelian dialectic around a particular topic. And that's why the truth community is like a splintered fragmentation, you know, of who. Who knows how many, you know, different dimensions, but a lot of polarities. Right.

Like, wasn't that the nature of the universe? I mean, it's always expanding, and in that expansion, there's all these, like, breaking off of. Of the different, I guess you could say, connections of truth. And what is. I love your honesty, too, because there's so many people that have read your books and even our last interview, like, what I get from you is this humility, but it's a humility with a fierceness. And that's interesting because a lot of times people go one way or the other. So there's some kind of recalibration that you've had to do inside of yourself that you've got done to do. And it probably came from actually what's on your new podcast. I love this intro. I was actually listening this morning. Reclaim all of your parts to own yourself and ignite the inner knowing and pulsing vitality that lives beneath your disempowerment, disconnection, and resentment so that you can audaciously, courageously and playfully alchemize your struggle into the specific pleasure of who you are. Say that all again. And then feel the way that it feels in the human body to get all those words and to feel the vibration of those words like audaciousness, alchemy, to get rid of the things that have really been depressing. The energy and the expression in our soul.

Yeah.

And I felt that in my life in corporate America and going through multiple dark nights of the soul and, you know, lots of drugs and unconscious sex and almost £280 at one point. Like, I've run the gamut of all the ways I can disconnect from Josh.

Yes.

How many ways can I disconnect from Josh? What I loved about your new podcast and the intro is like this. This reclamation. I know there's a lot of focus in your work on the feminine, but this reclamat is for all of us. Like, to reclaim yourself is to reclaim the feminine and the masculine inside of you. And really to recalibrate, to circle back, what is the recalibration that you've done in yourself to be the fierce and the humble and also to learn how to love our parts.

Yeah. It's owning my shit and taking radical responsibility for my experience, which includes moments where I have chosen to express myself in ways that people don't like, in ways that felt courageous for me and that were ill received. If that's a phrase, and to hold myself through that, right? So it's doing the embarrassing thing, it's doing the regrettable thing, it's saying the stupid thing, it's giving myself what in the BDSM world that I've been deeply exploring over the past year is called a permission field. I love that phrase because it. You can almost feel it, right? Like, who doesn't want a huge permission field? That's what we wanted as children. We wanted huge permission to be who the hell we were. But more specifically, to express our erotic life force, energy, our vitality in whatever way it wanted to come forth so that we could start to have a lived experience of when it actually works for us, you know, and is the right thing for us to do. To jump on the couch, to scream really loud, to sing and dance, to touch our own genitals in public. Like, how else do we learn how to relate to our impulses and desires if we don't have the freedom to begin to explore that and learn from lived experience? Well, almost none of us had that. And, you know, it can. It can. The humble origins of this. This disconnection from our own life force, and some would argue our connection to whatever is bigger. The divine. That spark.

Do you call it? The divine?

So I'm. I'm a recovering atheist. I was, you know, a scientism practicing atheist for many, many years. And there's something about that word that still gives me a little cringe. So I, you know, I prefer, you know, to sort of think of it as my own self. Right. So I like the holofractal worldview that says, you know, my. My small human, like, squishy, smelly, like, you know, weird parts inside, squiggling around, you know, like that self and all of its dimensions. Right. The circus of what it's made of actually has this relationship to a dimension of my own self that is all knowing, all seeing and grand on a scale that I couldn't possibly conceive of. But I also already know.

Would you also say it's your higher self?

Yeah, my deeper self is the. The phrase I prefer. So when I like prayer, I pray to myself also because I am very much in a phase of my life where I am resolving a lot of mommy and daddy issues. I think I'm coming to the tail end of that phase. It's been many years I've been working on this. And so if I pray to deities or God or even honestly, this idea of the universe, I don't really know what that Means, I mean, my child, right? Like I somehow collapsed into this child, like sort of like on Santa's lap kind of vibes. And it doesn't work for me. I need a. I need a non parentifiable entity to relate to. And I found that when I pray to myself, that works, that works for me.

There's this gnostic.

Yes.

It's a compound in this understanding where they say, okay, actually it's the. It's the devil presenting as God and it's actually God that's from a place that time doesn't have any attachment to whatsoever. I've been resonating more with that lately. I just saw the Ancient Civilizations with Graham Hancock on Gaia. Y' all gotta watch this. It's amazing. And it's exactly what you're talking about. Like there. We have gone through so many dogmas, not only in religion, but. Oh my gosh, the dogmas around parenting and the. I mean, like feeling it all right now. Like the truth of it all, it's so heavy at times that we need people like you to just bring a new fresh perspective, to just really like.

The stuff we've got, an old fresh.

Perspective to the stuff we've been choking on for so long. Like Alan Watts calls it all wretch and no vomit.

I love that.

Like, we all train our children to raise their children, to raise their children, but nobody ever actually throws it up. It's like we need a massive Ayahuasca purge as a collective. So. But I digress. Like, go back, because you were still fleshing out the aspects of the question, like, how do we make sense of this one side where we are having to be a certain way from our conditioning, and then the other side where it's actually just yourself expressing and reclaiming what it was here to actually be. This reclamation.

Yeah. So I like to think in gendered polarities. So I think about my inner man, my inner masculine, my inner father, however you want to think about it. And how can that energy hold space for my inner feminine? Right? My. My wildness, my weirdness, my dimensionality, my chaos and my impulses. And I found that there's. There's literally a neuroanatomical layer to this. Right? So until my body, my physiology was in a stable enough place for me to hold the energies of shame, of fear, of grief, of. In my body sufficiently so that I could actually express something out of the box or out of my lane or do a thing that was risky. I wasn't able to do it. So it's like the choice didn't even exist until I was in a nervous system capacity to meet a desire, right? With the actual lived experience of acting on that desire. And so it kind of looks like, you know, what a good man looks like, you know, like, I'm here, baby. I'm here for whatever, you know, like, I'm with you. I love your crazy shit. Keep doing it, right? Like, so I, I learned to, to do that for myself. Every time I would have an impulse, right, to create, whether that was to write something or create a video or you know, learn something weird and new that I sucked at any little impulse, I, I got into a practice of honoring it and following through on it, right? Like I woke up one day and I was like, I want a partner salsa dance. But I'm terrified. And a voice comes in, I'm. That's. That could be like super awkward. Like, what if the men are really gross? What if you like, don't know how to do it and you embarrass yourself or like, you better find a girlfriend to go with you or it's going to be a terrible experience, right? So there's a little teeny, teeny, teeny yes that defines these, these life expanding impulses. And then there's often a pile of no that comes on top of the yes. And it requires the strong spine, right? This, this masculine field within us to hold space for that little yes and to allow it to blossom and to really, you know, know how to, with kindness, compassion, curiosity and reverence, interact with all the no's that have a very good reason for being there. They're not bad either, right? And just kind of organize everything so that that little yes can begin to blossom. And in my own personal journey, that looked a lot like desecreting my sexuality and my sensuality and bringing into my public Persona these aspects of myself that were, were seemingly inconsistent with whatever else it was that I was doing in a public space or with my brand or with my advocacy or my mission. And we, I think, I think especially as women, but you can tell me we have an experience that is very, it's a, it's a constriction that we self impose and we impose upon each other that we really need women to stay in their lanes, right? Like you can be the stripper, but don't be the stripper doctor, right? Or you can be, you know, you can be the, you know, the mom, but if you want to like also be, you know, I don't know, the, the, the only fans don't do that. Right. So we are. We are very, very early in stages of learning how to integrate what might be called, like, our dark energies. And you referenced that earlier, like, how do we integrate, you know, what we have labeled as dark dimensions of masculinity and dark dimensions of femininity that have so many gifts and powers and actually a necessity to be called forth. Right now, I actually have the belief that there is a not so subtle agenda against, like, a war on masculinity that has come through the feminist psyop and that has, you know, at its core, the intention to emasculate and feminize men to the point where there are no actual male protectors available.

And so I feel that, too. I know that's in the sovereignty series, which, by the way, y' all need to check this out. Joshtrent.com KellyBrogan and the code is Josh20. So thank you for that program access. It's incredible. I was looking at it this morning. It's in the notes right now. You gotta, gotta go. Because I was watching some of the information on birth. I was watching some of the information on financial sovereignty. And the big one is when you had the interview, what was the gentleman's name?

Omar. Pani.

Omar. And he said it so eloquently that, like, it started out in this way where it was about reclaiming love, reclaiming equality of some sort. But along the way, and I've found this to be the case in my own interactions with past partners and just life in general and even podcast guests, there is this dark side of femininity that really, it's not running on the same fuel source anymore. Maybe it started out pure, maybe it started out with loving intention, but it morphed into something really ugly along the way. And I wonder if you could speak to that, because that is a part of sovereignty, is to know when we have been puppeteered, to know when we have been amygdala hijacked. You know, using psychoneuroimmunology to make something real even though it's not. That's the hallmark of communism. How do you present information that's false that you are saying is true? So speak to that for a moment. The. The attack on masculinity. And how do we lovingly defend. How do we do that as a collective?

Yeah. So an important sort of starting place for this is the phenomenon of what sometimes is called the shadow Mommy, which is the. It's an archetype that, you know, has been discussed, I think, pretty well in a lot of the psychoanalytic literature and Jungian work, which is basically this idea of the devouring mother. And it's particularly relevant to the way that mothers relate to sons. And when women have an experience, as they pretty typically universally do, of having been threatened into unsafety by a man, right? Violated, betrayed, or otherwise brought to this deep existential place of fear that a man can kill them, which is the truth, right? So women walk the earth with the awareness that if they misstep, if they are too, too much in their energy, that a man can kill them with their bare hands. And that's just a fact. That's a fact of physiology, of biology. And the way that we interact as women with that fear is what defines our potential dynamic resources with men in the world. So not just your partner, right? So. And it puts us into a state of vigilance and self defensiveness. And then of course, the. All of this warfare consciousness and psychology that has been seeded through the feminist movement and agenda that insists that men apologize, that they cower, that they otherwise be subdued. And that's the only way that we can right the wrongs, right? So when you have a woman who is raising a son, who is in this energy, when a son starts to express his healthy aggression, which could be, you know, biting the nipple, he's nursing off of all the way to, you know, breaking things and poking animals or whatever, you know, boys do.

My son's in that face. He throws stuff, he hits, right?

So what, what do you. We reflexively, and through our conditioning, we say, no, yeah, don't do that, stop that. Or, you know, he might bite the nipple. And he's like, don't hurt mommy, right? But it's these again, the subtle things, like me telling my daughter I don't like the outfit she likes, right? It's these, these subtle, normative, culturally accepted programs that are actually the humble origins of a big fucking mess that we have an opportunity to, to clean up right now in man, woman relating. And what happens to those boys is that they are figuratively castrated and some of them actually literally through circumcision. And that's a whole other conversation, but.

That blows my mind. Everybody needs to see American circumcision.

I haven't seen it, but I'm sure I would agree with it.

I don't care what faith you're in, once you see with your eyes the trauma that's done to a boy. Welcome to Earth. Let me cut off the tip of your penis.

I have participated as a medical student. I participated in many circumcisions Wasn't there.

A part of your soul that was rejecting it and you fought with that, or you just. You were so in the blinders that you just did it because of your training?

The latter, yeah. I mean, you're sitting here with me, like, do I seem like a sociopath to you? No. And that's the power of the cult, is that it literally, like, distorts your perception of what is, what is fundamentally right and wrong.

That documentary broke my heart. And I think everybody needs to get their heart broken to the truth. Sometimes the truth needs to break your heart. But. But I digress. Go.

Yes, I know. We could go. I'm like, thinking about pap smears. I mean, if you look through the lens of occultism, it's sort of hidden in plain sight. But when it's again, culturally conditioned around these normative practices, it can be. It can be hard to see, but yeah. So you take a circumcised boy and then you. You give him, you know, a mother who has this wound ology that is nearly universal at this point, and she needs him to subdue and disconnect from his healthy masculine aggression in order to earn her love. And so this is often how boys become parentified partners to their moms. And men grow up with Madonna whore complexes where they literally can't fuck a woman they love. And, you know, they don't know how to integrate their predatory energy with their.

Heart because it was shamed.

They were disconnected from it as a survival mechanism. And then they live in a world of women who are righteously and with indignation saying, where are all the real men? Like, man up. But the truth is that we probably wouldn't be able to handle most men in possession of their actual masculine essence. Right. We think we want it, but actually we're still terrified of it.

Why is that?

Because of that cardinal reality that you. You could kill me right now. You could stand up and literally kill me right now. I'm in a room alone with you, and there's a part of my system that's aware of that. Right. And how do I. How do I work with that? Right. So I might manipulatively use, like, little seductive energies. Right. That's a dark, feminine, like, sort of early stage strategy. You know, I might make sure that, you know, I'm, like, intellectually capable, and so you might feel my power in that way and be a little bit subdued. Right. Or I might negotiate transactionally. Right. There's so many different strategies. Or I just might be in A little bit of vigilance the whole time, making sure, you know, like, I'm still safe and where the door is. So it informs so much of the way that we navigate the world.

Yeah.

But the, the opportunity is really to recognize that until as women we connect to, you know, I call it like our fierce. No, I, I think of that as the dark feminine initiation. Like normally there is somebody in a woman's life, could be a system, but it's often a person, often a lover who is hold or a partner who is holding all the archetypal energies of a parent figure. And how you can fully express your no in a way that you would never do if you were actually afraid this person was going to kill or punish you. Now, if that makes sense. But how do you fully step into the no. Not a strategic sort of, you know, watered down version, but like your full no. And I watched so many women do this in my practice that I've seen, seen. It's part of the archetypal journey because then your system begins to expand into the reality that actually here and now I can make choices and discern and I'm okay. Like I'm actually, actually safe now. Right. And so it's. Until you can start to expand into these pattern disrupting moments where you can do the scary thing that you subconsciously were worried was gonna kill you and survive, that you live in a more expanded reality. But first you have to own the fact that you have that fear. Like that fear fueled my entire activism career. It's not because I'm a good person or I wanted to like help inform people. It's because I was afraid of the projected man. You know.

Yeah, it's a, it's a really deep shadow aspect of self because I've heard this before. Women can never have enough safety. Men can never make enough money. And it's like, yeah, on some base level, maybe at the bottom of the hierarchy triangle, but that's not going to propel us forward. Those core aspects aren't going to help us grow. There is something to me making you feel safe, like making you a T, like being kind. That's just a natural thing. But some people, because of their traumas, they're just not aware of how to do that. If I haven't processed my traumas with you, I may subtly, energetically project those onto you or I may consciously project those onto you because I think women are like this. Obviously we wouldn't be podcasting together, but there is something to explore here. Like, women do have a really Beautiful role to play in their own safety. And also so do men. I think they're both necessary. But there's got to be this fluidity there. In my relationship with Keri Michelle, I know when I'm being too intense because she'll bring it as a mirror to me right away. But then I also know when I'm being too soft and expressing too much emotion to her where she's like, I really don't want to hear your shit, you know? So for men, I feel like I'm 42. There's. It's a challenge for us that want to show up real strong for women because that's just what we desire. That's like within our being. You know, we want to provide, we want to please, we want to be the fucking master of our domain. And we also have our own feminine explorative journey of what are my wounds informing for me? Am I even aware of my trauma? Like, there's so much there. And then maybe you talk about this in the Sovereignty series. How do you make sense of a woman who you do relate to men, right? You've been in two male relationships, so how do you make sense of that from your past relationships with men and also to the future into what you want with a man? Exactly what I'm describing to you. I hope I used enough words there. It's a juxtaposition of like, how do I show up strong, but also what is my Goldilocks zone as a man in this world?

Yeah.

Not too hot, not too cold.

That's the compassion. I mean, I've been in an exercise and practice the past year of ending the war with men, I call it. Right. So. So owning that I have this fear and seeing how I can transmute it in my lived experience. And I've taken tips from various teachers and engaged practices that are really simple and basic. Like not shit talking men ever to my girlfriends, with my girlfriends, you know, like, one of my girlfriends can come to me and, you know, talk about her baby daddy who's being an asshole. And I will not collude or I'll do my best effort or I'll correct myself if I do right? So how can I. Right? Because when I do that, not only am I desecrating, you know, the field of masculinity, but I'm also in opposition to my own inner masculine. That's the. That's the problem, right? That's where like the. The duality breaks down is because in the end, whatever it is that I'm in resistance to judging condemning on the outside is like going to show up in here and I'm going to have an immature, ready, controlling asshole of an inner masculine that punishes me, runs over my emotions, says walk it off, bitch. Like shut up. You know, I've talked to myself this way and that is my immature inner masculine. And how do I really develop a devotional dynamic with the masculine? Well, it starts in those simple practices, right? Or asking men for help, right? So I ask for way more help now. Putting my bag above the bin in the airplane, right? Or helping me, you know, to find a place or whatever it is of strangers and noticing how uncomfortable it is for, for that to be non transactional for me. Like the other day I had a guy, I make my cats like raw cat food, right? And I had a guy drop off like all this meat for them and I wasn't home and I live in Miami and it was gonna like melt on the doorstep. And I asked him to walk it around and put it in this freezer that he had access to. And my immediate sort of follow up was, I'm happy to pay you for your time or I don't even know what weird ass thing I said. And I caught myself and I said, you know what? Next time I'm just going to ask for help. Because if he wants to be paid for it, he can ask me, right? So that's the sort of simple sovereign reclamation so that I can actually recognize that when I make a man feel needed, it actually serves him and me right. And he also is at full liberty to say no if that's not going to serve him right, or he's not going to feel that, or it'll be.

A growth phase for him to learn how to say no when you're comfortable not to say no.

Exactly. So my practice is also to recognize that I have opportunities to reflect respect, admiration and appreciation to men, period, whenever that opportunity arises. And I will do it right, Because I think that's one of the ways that I can play a role in creating the conditions for what it is that I want, which is for men to show up with containment energy. And that's a phrase that many of us are using these days to express what a man is capable of offering not only to his woman, but to the collective. And this energy is a very first of all. It requires a stable, healthy nervous system. And I will tell you that if I walked in this door and I felt that your system was not able to offer me the basics of containment, I would have left, right? So that's actually where my choice lies. Right. So as I discern and move through the world in totally non erotic dynamics, every single interaction I have with a man is predicated on my interoception. So my inner assessment of whether or not this is a safe opportunity for me, I am in charge of determining that and I will exercise my power of choice accordingly. Right.

So can you speak practically on that? So are you kind of like the polyvagal theory, Stephen Porges? You're looking at the micro muscles in the face, you're sensing with your enteric nervous system.

I am feeling inside my body.

You are, you are practicing that. Like are you grounded? Are you looking at my facial structure? Are you watching how I breathe? Are you sensing my, I guess you could say authenticity or not. Like that's a real deep skill set.

I'm sensing your nervous system. So my friend Tom Cowan is always in my ear. He's like, Kelly, the nervous system hasn't been proven.

What?

He's all up in the sovereignty series. He's one of my. He's like a father figure and a deep intellectual ally and hero for me. So I use the term nervous system loosely. Regardless, I'll say my system. I am familiar enough with my bodily sensations and what in the somatics world is called a somatic sequence, right. So what happens when my alarm system is set off to know that if I'm in the presence of someone whose system is not grounded sufficiently, not perfectly, but sufficiently, that I have the opportunity to make decisions about how much I want to engage with that individual and what sort of positions I'm going to put myself in? Now the trouble is when I was in earlier phases of my own inner awareness and self awareness and I felt that on safety I might have frozen or fawned. Right? So tell you a quick story. I was at a car wash somewhat recently and I was meeting a girlfriend and I went to a new car wash because I had a half an hour to kill. And I go to this place and there's like all these just men running around with rags and there's like no, like secretary, I don't know, secretary, car wash, whatever. There's no like point person, you know what I'm saying? Like there wasn't like a podium where there was a person. I was gonna go say like, how much does this cost? How long will this take? I didn't know if I was supposed to stay in the car or get out of it. But meanwhile I'm like on this line getting fed into the car. Wash apparatus. And it's taking like 45 minutes already. I'm late. But meanwhile, like, this guy's like, wiping down my car for 200 hours. And I did not set the conditions for my own containment, right? So I did not assess. Excuse me, how long does this take? How much does it cost? Do I stay in my car or not? What happens if I need to leave before it's done? Is there a way I can expedite it? These are all ways I can serve my own safety conditions and set the stage for my nervous system to feel method. It's my how. My, like, how I self husband myself, right? Like, if I had a good dude with me, he would have done all that shit for me, right? And never put me in a position where I'm like, flailing around, right? So I didn't do any of that. And so then I kind of am like, excuse me, I have to go, like, when? How much longer is it going to be? And the guy I talked to starts, like, hitting on me and he's like, oh, are you from Miami? And. And then he's like, oh, I would love your. Are you on Instagram? I would love your Instagram handle. And so I go into fawning, right? I get. I take my time to give this guy my Instagram. Like, what is actually happening? I don't know. It was so terrible. Finally I get out of there, I escape out of there and I crash my car within like 30 seconds. I've never even done something like that. And so all of that is to say that the usual sequence of system patterning that unfolds when I am not in a safe position because I have put myself in an unsafe position because I have not assessed what I need and whether or not it's available. Remember eggs from the hardware store?

Yeah.

When I do that, then I can't necessarily be empowered in choice and discernment anymore. So how can I assess, right? So I will feel in my system. Kelly hasn't created the conditions for safety here, and maybe it's not available. So what choices do I have? So in the car wash example, I could have simply left the moment I felt like, what the hell is going on here? Right? And I could have just turned around and left, but I did not do that because I'm so used to putting myself. It's called self abandoning, self betraying, right? So used to putting myself in situations that are kind of mostly fine, seem fine, are good enough, and then kind of like hoping for the best, right? Or muscling my way through it, or maybe even then getting indignant and resentful and bitter or disappointed at the end because it doesn't turn out the way I thought it should. But really I didn't participate in co creating the conditions of consent around what was actually happening in the beginning. And this of course plays out in relationships all the time where we don't. And that's again part of why I really think that conscious kink and BDSM has a lot of promise because it's predicated on clear communication like mutual safety parameters and consent. And from so many of us, especially in the sexual arena, to re pattern with safety something that has only ever been a landmine of, you know, potential self betrayal and other betrayal and violation is such a powerful opportunity to learn how to do that in the rest of your life. How to communicate proactively, how to assess what it is that you need.

What a skill. Yeah, what an amazing skill. So as a masculine man that relates to woman so heterosexually, I'm speaking heteronormatively, you could relate anyway to anyone. But with man and woman, it's really special because when I plan dates, when I plan things, when I tell her what to wear, when everything is laid out and there's this containment of which you speak.

Yes.

It's so much easier for her to just.

It's the only way people might call.

It relax into the feminine, but it's. But it's like it's her, it's her natural modus operandi where it's like this is how it's supposed to be, that natural groove of nature. And we can feel it.

It's a contract.

We try to intellectualize it especially. I'm sure in your world of psychology, people write pages and dissertations on this. Like what exactly is that, this containment that allows a woman to truly relax into her feminine, if that's even a thing anymore. If you even use that vernacular.

Yeah, I would. I think that works. I mean it's, it's the power of polarity and it's a technology. I do think that. I think that the, the potential, especially in, in frankly erotic dynamics of man, woman relating is one of the most established essential technologies that needed to be disrupted in order for the current agenda to take hold. Because what can be created, what can be actualized in a man's field and in a woman's field energetically through the proper complementarity of their two domains, is so disruptive to anything. And it's an embodiment based experience. Right. You have to be in your body in order to offer that in polarity, right? To offer your masculine energy of attention and concentration and attunement. You can't do that without being in your own body. And as a woman, to open in receptivity and allow the energy of vital force to flow through you to your man, you cannot do when you're in your head thinking about whether he's bored or like, what the hell he needs. Right? So the crucible of this complementarity, I think actually they with a capital T, they've gone after it for good reason. Because as long as we are subtly warring with each other, and again, that could be in or out of relationship across the gender divide, imagining that gender doesn't matter, it's not what we think it is intuitively, or imagining that these sacred contracts don't actually exist between men and women. We are going to be, you know, my teacher Omrapandi calls it, you know, women are flailing and men are failing. And this there is. You referenced it earlier. But as far as I understand, there is an experience and relationship that men have to failure that is on the order of a woman's fear of death. Right. And so when you feel like you're just fucking failing at every turn, there is no way for you to exercise the extraordinary and essential nature of your masculine power. And to touch back on something you referenced earlier. I love working with Home Rapani and I interviewed him. I actually put that interview Sovereignty series interview out publicly on my podcast because he's the only person I see talking about the new age as a psyop. Right. And so what is it that men have been encouraged to feel their feelings? Is that really what they should be doing? Getting in touch with their feelings? I don't think so.

To a point. To a point.

With their women? Not at all. That's my perspective, is that it's actually undermining to exactly what a woman wants and actually what a man wants for a woman to treat her man as his girlfriend and chitty chat with him all day about whatever nonsense is going on in her life. And for a man to be encouraged to dump his feelings on his woman, that is a mess. And there is no way that either of those people are going to have the experience that they actually long for deeply. Right. And the new age is encouraging this processing and, you know, tell me how it felt for you, honey. You do that with your men.

That's right.

You find your ways of accessing catharsis privately with your men. You do, you know, vipassana Martial arts, you get your system strong. And his assertion, which I agree with, is that men don't need help connecting to their hearts. Their hearts are actually quite available. We need help. Women need help because of our defensive conditioning. What men need is help connecting to their spines and grabbing their balls, right? And women, we need help softening, relaxing that reflexive control mechanism that has been so supported socioculturally, you know, undermining our own power, which is in the receptive spaces of opening and offering our heart wisdom. You know, that's really not possible when I'm also in vigilance, imagining that I know better, you know, how a man should be, and tending to his emotions and his outbursts and whatever, and thinking that that's what we're supposed to be doing when there is a technology available to us in polarity, that it's just off the table when we're not in our proper lanes.

It's fucking brilliant, actually. There's so much brilliance to it. Like when you said, nah, not ever. No feelings ever. There's a part of my conditioning in real time that was like, well, what do you mean, Kelly? What do you mean? I'm never supposed to tell her how I feel. Like there is some limit, and especially because she's carrying her second child, there's a limit to how much a woman can handle from her own life, from her own processing to then also have to do that with her man.

Yeah.

Is there a healthy limit or are you just like, nah, what is it? What is it feeling like?

I've never been in a healthy romantic relationship, but if you had to one.

Day, from a place of.

Of knowing what I know and what I have learned as like, a deep researcher of these, you know, of man, woman relating and. And just predicated on all of my awareness as a psychiatrist of what goes into really dismantling some of our conditioning and accessing the deeper longing, you know, that we bring to the table. You know, my teacher Omrapani would say, like, maybe once a year, you can bring your shit to your woman. But it's sort of like if you want your woman to have an experience that she can't, you can carry her suitcase, right? You can carry her bags. If you're periodically, let alone frequently, saying, baby, hold this for me, emotionally, she's never going to feel like she can give her bags to you. And the problem is she won't respect you. And when a woman does not fundamentally respect her man, it's over. It's over. And a woman typically, and I enjoy generalizing about this because I really feel like it is generalizable. And I'm not really interested in like a thousand caveats about how I may listen. Take this or leave it. I don't care.

Yeah, the blanket covers most whatever, right?

Thank you. So, you know, for the most part, we as women, there is a rupture in the accessibility to respect that we can offer a man when we witness his inability to self contain and to remain in possession of himself around his emotions. Like the moment a man loses his shit or is like somehow hysterical or like emotionally demanding, that's fine. I mean, we're happy to mommy, right? But if you look at through the lens of a lot of Oedipal stuff, you know, you'll see that the father daughter dynamic is highly eroticized by nature. And that's because what I look for in a man, in a partner, is the same thing that I looked for in my dad as a daughter. Right. I want a strong man who has integrity of word, who follows through who initiates, who provides, who protects and who has that stable, strong, you know, clear, conscious attention and attunement to my body, to my heart, and to the environment. I wanted that in my dad and I want it in my man. What a son wants in his mommy is not what he wants in his woman. That's not an erotic dynamic at its heart. And that's not to say that there aren't dynamics that play out there. There certainly are. It's different. And so when we as women go into mommy energy, we kill the Eros. And mommy energy is. I know, better than you. For you, it's nurturing and it's also caretaking. Right. So these elements are irresistible to us because they've been coupled with control and safety. You know, in our experience as women, we have found that we can feel safe when we are in a dynamic where a man does not lay predatory claim on us. And that is not established, which is very challenging to establish. I know almost no examples of that yet. And I think we're evolving into that being more available as a collective to make it safe for men to lay that claim. But when we're in these dynamics and we feel that rumble, or maybe we misperceive that it's actually, you know, unsafe when it is safe. Right. Because of our shit and our projections, we will default to the shadow mommy energy. Right? The controlling, the telling the man what to do.

That also includes nitpicking. You can't everything. Right, totally. A man does all these things and there's one Thing he does wrong and.

She can't do that. And you focus on that. Yeah, I, you know, I read what elicits that.

Exactly.

A sense of unsafety. Right. So when a woman feels unsafe, she will typically compensate through these, this shadow mommy vibe.

And how does a man take an inventory of his behavior is making her be that way?

Well, it's dynamic. It always takes two. Right. So the, there's a lot that a woman can do on her own without her man even knowing that could shift that dynamic. Right. And I could speak to that. But first I will also say that your capacity to contain your woman, and you asked me to elaborate on that a bit. And I'll just say that it's often non verbal. Right. So it can be the way you look across the room to her when you feel her system a little, you know, it could be that, you know when to come over and like bear hug her from the back and hold that for like a good thing, three minutes. Right. It could be that you, you know, you know how to hold her accountable for her own nonsense. Right. And to really sort of like, you know, turn it into alchemy. Play with it. Right. Like grab her arms and her body and say, you know, we're done with this shit now. Right. Whatever it is. Like you, you can make as much art of it as you want. Or it could be as simple as offering your regulated system to her body when her body is unregulated but not getting into the weeds of her story.

Oh my God, that's so good. I call it not stepping into the vortex.

Yes.

Like when a woman, and I'm generalizing too, when a woman is going in a spiral, the best thing I can do is just breathe and be like, I'm right here.

Yes.

The worst thing I can do is be like, well, what do you mean? Get into the fucking spiral. That is a absolute recipe for disaster.

That's right.

That is somewhat of what you're saying.

But your system has to be able to capacitate that storm, right. So you have to be able to hold that container. And there are certain men who have those systems. Right. So if you do, then do it.

Yeah.

And practice it. And don't take the bait and recognize these little ways that you can offer your woman's system containment. And that doesn't let her off the hook. Hardly. Because if she doesn't do enough of her own self containing and she brings all of her chaos to you, eventually you're going to, you're gonna not be interested. Right. So it's self correcting. But there's a lot that a woman can do, and I've learned much of that from a book called the Surrendered Wife that I really. I don't know how books come into my field. It's like this very mystical process where I sort of like, just find the right book at the right moment. And this woman, Laura Doyle, was in a pretty shitty marriage. And she. She recognized. And she doesn't reference David Data, but I do think she borrows, like, some. Maybe it's just in the zeitgeist world, like the way the superior man or there's some elements. And I'm a huge David Data fan and have followed his work.

Me too. That's how I started my men's Work in 2014.

Was that book amazing? Amazing. And I know that there's some overlap in what he calls third stage man, woman, relating and expression. Right. So anyway, in this book, it's very controversial. I don't know how this woman isn't like burning on a stake somewhere, but I don't even know anyone who's read it. So she talks about simple ways that we can begin to make changes and you can tell me how resonant these are. So one of them, and probably the deepest practice for a woman to explore if she's in a dynamic that she wants to infuse with more erotic potential so that it ends up feeding both of the people. Because that's the nature of that dynamic. Right. Is to never take the bait of her man asking her her opinion. Okay. I am one of the most know it all bitches I've ever met, and I have plenty of opinions. And I always think I know. Like, I literally went to an intensive with Omrapani and Lori Handlers and told them how they should do it better. I literally just did that. So this is a huge shadow, you know, element that I'm always working on. And in my relationships, the energetics were always. Would always default to where I was consulted. And I thought, oh, well, that's because I'm an oracle and I see things so clearly and I'm happy to share my vision with my man right now. The truth is that they were inverted in polarity, and I participated in that inverted polarity partly because I did not take. I didn't even know about this advice. And so, for example, you might ask your woman, hey, baby, should I wear the yellow shirt or the blue shirt?

I would never ask her that.

Okay. A. So, you know, or like, maybe business, like, what do you think? Should I do this or that. And how is she gonna not answer? Right. Of course she's gonna answer. But already in her answer, she's entering into the. The mommy field. Right? Because she's insinuating that. And men have been so conditioned to look to women for guidance about how to be the man that they are that it's. This impulse is maybe not in your case, but maybe hard to. To extinguish. But one of the ways it can be extinguished is by simply responding with one phrase, which is whatever you think. Right. Or maybe that's a good question. That's it. Don't answer. Right. And over time, that will begin to restore agency and personal authority back to his domain so that he can have an experience of his own spine, his own capacity and competence of as a man that he knows is in there somewhere. Right? And this dance of like consulting a woman. No man wants to be told how to do his life by a woman, period. Even though maybe somehow he's like, oh, my woman knows a lot of shit. Like, she can help me with this. Once he is consulting a woman other than his mommy, and as an adult man, he's not consulting his mommy anymore, or he shouldn't be. There is no real potential for the true expansive capacity of that dynamic to unfold. Right. And we participate unconsciously in that as women. And it's not because we intend to command our men and, like, need to. It's just because it's been culturally accepted. And this dynamic is now really set in place. And because we've developed a lot of competence. You know, I wonder.

I wonder how you feel about this.

Yeah.

I believe that this dynamic, this inverted polarity that you're talking about, I think it stems from, at its origin, the deepest father wound. Either a disconnection of my. Like, my father hasn't been in my life for almost two years now. Two and a half years, and the boundaries were set. It was a very healthy break. And from my side, at least. At least that's what my ego says. And so I've laid the groundwork for me to actually just be sovereign as a man for my child and for my woman and for my family and for my business.

Yeah.

And that really opens up a cavern with Carrie and I. For me to be a man.

Yes.

But if I hadn't done the work to sever that relationship, the unhealthy dynamic with my father, and do it in a very profound way, fasting in nature on a vision quest, deeply spiritual, connected to God, this is the path, then I might be in some way, maybe even non verbally asking for the mother to give me advice.

Yes.

So I think it stems from the father wound for most men because they've never been enabled, they've never been mirrored from their parental behavior, how to be a man in the first place. And I think that's really the origin. And I wonder if you see that play out in the same way that I do.

Totally. I am very interested in mother and father woundology and how it manifests in men and women differently. And you know, sometimes for me I'm like, I have these like long lists of, of all the ways, you know, that it can look. And sometimes it's easiest for me to distill into like two phrases, you know, that, that the father wound is fundamentally the experienced and held belief that your father did not protect you. Right. You were unsafe and it's his fault. Right. And that your mother didn't love you and you were unloved and it's her fault. Right. And that, that feeling, that belief, that field is in us and until we visit with that, and this is hardest for people who are like, oh, I had a great childhood, I don't know, I was fine. My grandma.

That's the flag. That's the flag that, you know, they're full of shit. Anytime anybody says that, I'm like, good.

Luck, good luck and see you in 10 years. When you're ready to actually own this.

Party, you'll be knocking on your door. Can you help?

Right. And that's how we participate in our own gaslight. Right?

Sure.

And become susceptible to these grand gas lights on the world stage. Right. So, yeah, I mean, I think that the sense as a man that I don't need external validation for my mastery of my domain is part of the maturation of the father wound. Right. So what you're describing is like, I don't. It's like you give yourself a permission field and it's not about perfection. You actually almost understand failure is a part of the game. You're never ever going to get to the place. I mean, this is what Data talks all the time about. You're never going to get to the place where everything is done. Right. You're never going to get to the place where you actually feel deeply successful. Right. And you may never get to the place where you actually even feel totally fulfilled. So how do you play with that, you know, as an art form, as game? And how do you keep waking up every day and engaging anyway? Like, what do you need? How do you fill yourself up and how do you empty yourself out in order to continue to engage in that? And then, you know, the mother woundology stuff is like, how do you resist the temptation to invoke caretaker energy from your woman when that's not what you want? Right. When you actually know how to relate to your own inner emotional landscape with a lot of presence and attention and responsiveness. Like, my sense is that you probably know when you're feeling a thing, like what you actually need for yourself. Right. And you can give that to yourself. And it's an old reflex to imagine that your woman really plays any part if you want her to be your woman and not your, you know, projected mommy.

It's so refreshing. Your take. Like, we've had so many interviews, like even Dr. Stan Tatkin, you know, about, like, the relating to the island, the wave, the anchor, the secure, the anxious, the avoidant. We intellectualize the out of this. And I think somewhere in my vagus nerve, it, like, knows. It knows what you're saying is true. So I can. I can, like, feel it in my arms, you know, like, there's something so universal about this wisdom, but we have intellectualized ourselves out of it because it is the right thing to do in this new terrain of boys are girls and girls are boys, just circle back on that, and then we'll keep going. There is this war on the psyche and the soul that I feel. JP Sears and I talked about this in depth because he's very passionate about this, as am I. But I also don't want to come from that unconscious place where I'm projecting either.

Right.

There is a war on the minds of. Of little girls and little boys. This is why my son will never, ever go to a public school. And even. Even the private collective schools, you know, like they have out here in Austin, I will still police those very vigilantly because all the work that you have done as a parent, as a mother, and all the work that I'm going to do, it can be undone. It can be undone in those spaces where there's this gender dysphoria that is happening. And then you have the CEO, I believe is the head of marketing for Disney that says, I have a pansexual child.

Right.

And I have a transsexual child. And they ran the math on that.

Right? Right.

I think it was some conservative. And he's like, the odds of that being true is. Is 1 in 13.

Right. Or Jordan Peterson said, or you're just a malignant narcissist.

That's right. So Speak to that. Speak to that, Kelly. Like, speak to the, speak to the war on the psyche. Really at the most vulnerable when the rose is just opening up to the sun. That's my son right now. That's, that's our young children. Like it, it. I can feel the, the, the sadness in me. And above that sadness is sacred anger. Like, that's what I feel about this whole thing. Yes, it's very sad. And I'm also in my sacred anger to protect my children.

Yeah.

So how do you make sense of that? And maybe you could paint a picture for us from a psychological and also a heart based lens.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, my sense is that you also are aware that it doesn't actually have to be relevant to you. Right. Like this whole psyop, this whole pronoun and gender psyop, it's like literally not relevant to my life or my parenting experience. I mean, my kids are like, aware that this is a thing going on and it's not a thing. You know, we don't participate. It's not, it's not germane, you know, to, to our experience. So you can get to this place where you just kind of opt out, like somehow energetically from the beginning of it. And you also are aware, like on a deep level of how, how malevolent, you know, this really is and how honestly kind of like Machiavellian, like brilliant. It is like so brilliant. Yeah.

So sinister.

And that's why I've become so interested in erotic dynamics and in man, woman relating, is because I've started to intuitively sense, like, we're over here playing with the latest sparkly object around vaccines and health and the chemtrails and whatever is in my sovereignty. Yes. And what's even deeper, what's even actually at the core, I'm interested in like, I don't know, some of the least obvious psyops. And that's why I became very interested in the origins of the feminist movement, the Rockefeller funded feminist movement, and how we as women have taken the bait of egalitarian politics and imagining that we are entitled to do and say and be whatever a man is entitled to. Fundamentally declaring and participating in a belief field that says men and women actually aren't different. Well, they are and they have been forever. Right. And little boys are different than little girls. And even if, you know, there is an experience which can be very real, that a little boy feels more at home in the experience of a social construct, construct of girlness, might that actually evolve over time and have A natural course and a natural arc without actually programming, you know, categorizing and otherwise labeling into some sort of identity that is just totally inappropriately imposed on this little being. Right. So can we create the space for that without participating in the diffusion of gender differences? And the fact that when you're born with a vagina, you have one experience in the world, and when you're born with a penis, you have another. And there is a reason for the complementarity and polarity that is available there that, you know, the dismantling of which I think is a part of a. A major agenda. And of course, we all know that.

Sure.

But there are. There are folks who are susceptible to that that probably would be susceptible to other elements of the agenda. It's just kind of like you pick one flavor of it, and if you're captured, you probably would have been anyway. And I'm sure you're the same, especially with your little one. How to reckon with the children who are sort of sacrificed on the altar of these agendas is very difficult because our rescuers can get activated. And that's where I got captured, especially in the vaccine advocacy or the opposite, you know, work that I did for a long time was like, yeah, but if I can save one child, you know, kind of a thing. Or like. But I have to get this information out, because these children. These children, these children is this feeling of, like, these innocents, you know, who are falling prey. And I just. I just don't know anymore, like, how to relate to that, because my senses that it's a whole reality tube, you know, that these family structures are a part of. And the susceptibility to these agendas is just a symptom of a deeper sickness in that space. And so, like, if. If I'm aware, you know, that my neighbor is beating his child, like, what is my responsibility? I don't actually know the answer to that at this point in my process, because I used to believe it was always my responsibility to take righteous action and to stand in the way, you know, to be that protector in whatever sort of, like, mama bear energy I naturally inhabit.

I think there's a spectrum of response that's required. It's not like it's always one way. Like, if somebody was assaulting you and we were in public, I would step in and do something about it. Yeah, that would be the most objectively loving thing to do.

Yeah.

But then on the subject, when it's your neighbor and maybe you don't know what's going on or you don't know if the kid did something and that's their way of parenting. Who knows? It's a fucking wormhole to go down. I know there's never one answer for stuff like that.

And that's why I come back to, okay, if I can get my system right and I can get my perception and discernment clear, then I'll always know what the fuck to do. That's all I can come back to again and again and again. Because if I proselytize around, like, what is the right thing to do and how do we protect our kids? Like, there. It just becomes like a minefield. And that's not to endorse, like, moral relativism. Yeah. It's. It's just to suggest that there's a lot of victim consciousness energy that can hide in the rescuer, and there's also a lot of fear that can hide in this sort of sense of having to protect our children. And you won't have to protect. Protect your kids from anything. Right. If you just sort of like, stand for and certainly model, you know, through your relationship, Primary relationship, you know, why it matters to be a man.

Oh, wow, Kelly. I mean, like, what we're touching on right here, this is maybe the whole kind of fuel substrate for sovereignty series. Because all the. I mean, farming, self sufficiency, energy, finance, health, gardening, like, it's all in there. Which is fucking awesome because I've actually, like, heard people do, like, doomsday preppers. They're like, here's how to store ammunition. My buddy Mike Dillard is all about that. But this is different. Like, and it actually, it feels like what you're explaining here, piggybacks on what I shared, the wisdom that I got from. From Zach Bush. It's like, instead of being a stand to, like, protect the children. And I understand Operation Railroad is very important. Like, human trafficking is a fucking tragedy. If I go down that road, I might actually lose my center, honestly. So I just don't go there. But I also am not afraid to talk about the darkness. So there's this. There's this beauty that I think is important in our conversation. And maybe what is that substrate for sovereignty series? And that is instead of spending my whole life fighting against the shit that's super dark and evil, and it is. It's probably better of service. It most likely is better of service to just have a structure and a way of being in an operandi where we're just loving each other, loving ourselves and teaching each other how to do that, to be sovereign. Is also, I think, to have the agency to teach someone else how to be what you yourself have embodied. And you can't fake that shit. Yeah, you either have it or you.

Don'T, or to model it and their system will read it and co regulate around it, you know, if that's available. And yeah, my interest is in connecting these dots because these days I'm not really sure what I'm an expert in anymore. You know, I am very, very curious about, you know, I'm a psychiatrist, so I'm good at pattern recognition. That's pretty much all we do as psychiatrists, right? So. And I can see these patterns that track through all of these seemingly disparate dimensions. You know, whether it's, you know, again, legal, you know, legal contracts that we consent to without our awareness, or whether it's like our understanding of cosmology and like, what is this place that we're in, how does it actually look and what's actually happening here and what have we been told? Or whether it's again, like food sovereignty or looking into what it is to have a smartphone or what it is to relate to others who don't share your beliefs and then what it is to be in romantic relationships in a way that actually looks and appears, you know, like a healthy construct. Right. Because so many of the activists that I found myself surrounded by, and this was true of myself at one point too, have like really unhealthy lifescapes, right? Like, it's like the environmentalist who's like, room is a mess. You know, it's like, it's like how you do one thing is how you do everything. And how do we actually like make sure that our lived experience is reflective of the values that we, we say we stand for. And so in connecting these dots, my interest is in just like opening up little windows in unrelated, seemingly unrelated topics so that you can start to get really good at recognizing patterns and no longer ever taking the bait of self abandonment and self betrayal, I guess, is what I find exciting. I find it interesting. And I also am at the place, I suspect you're here too, where it's like, there's probably nothing I could be told at this point that would get my panties in a bunch of. That is like, it's not true when I thought it was true, right? Like there's, there's like at this point I'm like, bring it on, right? Like, I mean, I enjoy and delight in being wrong about shit. And I, I think I had to get literally on a system level to the place where I decoupled change, and specifically change in belief from being bad and wrong as a person. Right? Because we, we as a society have coupled those things. You know, if. If you once believed in infection and contagion and now you don't, well, then you were, you were stupid and naive and gullible when you believed it. If you once smoked cigarettes and now you don't. Well, better never talk about that because. And try to think you can be a health advocate or whatever. So, so how do we integrate all of our past selves into our current experience of a whole self so that we're not projecting those parts on others and judging them on the outside? Well, it requires that you kind of take the piss out of, like, changing your mind and being wrong about something and having taken the bait. Okay. And moving on. When you know better, you do better, right?

The essence is pride. What you're talking about is this, this lion pride that's like, I won't share this vulnerable part of me that now knows, based on new evidence that I didn't to make the best loving choice.

Or it'll show something, right?

If I show vulnerability, that means I'm uber weak. And I would, I would assume at positions of high leadership, the cost, perceived cost at least, is so challenging that they might lose their position, that they might be looked at as weak, that they might be infallible. Like they, they might be fallible at what they're doing. So fallible, it's like, oh, my God, I'm. I'm no longer a leader. But actually by them doing that, by them being vulnerable, it's such a fucking paradox because when they share their fallibility, they're like, sharing the fact that they're human, which makes them a really even more powerful leader.

That's, that's absolutely. That's why I told you. One of the men in my life who is a figure of mass, a masculine pillar in my life is Tom Cowan. And one of the reasons that I trust him so much is because I know that he admits when he doesn't know, and he admit he does it publicly all the time. He admits when he was wrong about something, he talks about books he's written that he would like, throw in the garbage or whatever. And that is an essential part of a relationship to one's own masculinity, right? So when again to track back to the surrendered wife, right? If I, if I let my man fail, right? So I give him responsibility for managing the electric bill. And like on a Wednesday, the lights go out because he didn't pay. Right. How can I interact with that with a continued current of respect, admiration and trust? Like, oh, I'm sure you'll get this sorted out. This is so funny. Should we like put light candles or whatever? And how can I not take the opportunity to shame and punish him? Which is the dark feminine in its most immature expression, always wants to shame and punish the men. Because that's our killer. Right. That's how we kill men, is by shaming and punishing them. And then you can get practiced as a man with your own failure. Get intimate with it. It's a part of your experience. And when you're in the more immature phases of your masculinity, you will imagine that failure is a threat to your literally existential opportunity on this plane. So if you can get comfortable with that, you actually begin to transmit to everyone around you that you are in possession of your own darkness that you know. Again, it's like Jordan Peterson says, like you can't, you can't trust a man who doesn't know that he can kill someone. You literally can't trust that man. He's not in touch with his own darkness. And so it's going to express in these like leaky, shadowy ways. And it's, it's not a. I have.

Said, I have said to my partner, you need to just be okay and you gotta let me fail sometimes.

Yes.

You have to give me that. If you don't give me that, it will suck the electricity out of our union. And it's not just her, it's. It's actually just something I've experienced in many different relationships and dynamics where there's just, there's a non trusting from the woman to just let me fail.

Yeah.

And I get where that comes from because maybe it was like their father or their caregiver that like they could never trust that person. So in the moment I don't think about that because I'm feeling the trigger, which is my process to work through. And I'm just like, just let me fucking fail. There is so much love and power in that, like letting a person fail. And it goes even to what we're saying, the fractal is crazy right now. It goes to what we were saying about robbing a child of their process of a boy thinking he's a girl, eventually he'll grow out of it. We have to give each other this spaciousness to go through our processes.

Yeah.

Without trying to lend a helping hand, which is actually a harmful hand that comes from A place of just not trusting that that human being doesn't have the power, doesn't have the real gravitas to change or to grow through their own experience.

Exactly.

That is like the biggest thorn in the side, I think, of our society right now. And I wonder, I just wonder like, what is the solution to that?

To stay in your own lane and mind your damn business, right? If we each did that, then we would disrupt the pattern of securing safety from the outside, right? So if I'm as, as a woman, if I am preoccupied with how you're doing you and how you are messing up or doing, right? And in this sort of judgmental assessment comportment towards you, then I'm fundamentally disengaged from my own body mechanism that will help me to know how to make choices, how to stay in my own gift, which is my. The emotional energy moving through my system, how to express that with authenticity and essentially how to organize myself in contrast to my programming, right? And to my defensive habits and reflexes when I am in someone else's business, right? It's like Byron Katie says, when you think somebody needs therapy, you need therapy. It's like a basic tenet when you're in someone else's business, it's a distraction and an avoidance of your own connection to yourself and your power. It's the divided will that we have around experiencing our own power. And because we have coupled our expansion into greatness with divorce from our parents, love, right? They needed us to be, or so we thought, smaller. And this is often a mother wound in, in women, we self attenuate. You know, only in the past year have I begun a practice of celebrating my life with my friends. You know, like when I earned seven figures, I tell my girlfriends, can you believe what happened this year? You know, my first year as a single woman. And look at this, right? Instead of I would have formerly been like, oh my God. And then I spent so much of the money and so really I didn't take home that much. And this self mitigating, this self attenuating and then the competitive energy that we have with each other as women comes from this, at least theoretically, this experience of being bigger than our own mothers, being a source of punishment that our mothers couldn't actually and wouldn't support us if we were more beautiful, more powerful, had more healthy relationships with men, that they need us, they need to feed off of us as bottom feeders, if you will. And none of that is actually probably true in our lived experience as adults. But how do you sort of wake up from that old patterning. Part of it is stepping into the audacity of your real, you know, beautiful life, you know, your lived and present life, and celebrating the small and the big and also holding in you whatever it is that you imagine might come consequence wise from your emboldened expression. Right. So, so we might make ourselves smaller because we think it's going to hurt someone else. It's going to hurt someone else. Right. We all need everybody, like owning their awesomeness, right. Owning their capacity, owning their amazing experiences so that the permission field can grow bigger. And I do think that if I've done anything in the past year and a half or so, it's been to potentially offer some women a bigger permission field to do the thing, whether it's in the literal sense, to post videos, bikini clad dancing around a pole or whatever, when you're a credentialed professional, or if it's just a subtler sort of like, do the weird thing, you know, do the weird thing. Right. The, the permission field is maybe just a little bit bigger, you know, and of course, I tried to do that earlier in my career with, you know, sort of, I guess, expressing to those who've been labeled psychiatrically and to just say it's actually nothing wrong with you. Right. And these, these little phrases can disrupt a lot of the constriction around what is possible or what we perceive as possible for ourselves. And so you standing in, you know, your own bigness, right, is, is part of how we offer this to each other. And the other part is to stop imagining that we know how somebody should live their lives. So, yes, I've come to the conclusion that especially woman on woman, you know, when we accept, express to each other, you know, that we know better, like how a woman should be, like, don't be taking pictures of yourself in a G string on the beach. That's so like this and the patriarchy. How about just worry about yourself, your experiences and stay in your business?

Yeah.

Because if we stop telling each other what to do and we stop offering unsolicited guidance, criticism and advice, then we will have to look at our own discomfort that arises when we encounter someone who is being in a way that we don't like. And that's what brings us back to those, you know, early childhood enmeshment wounds where just to grow the capacity to be in the presence of someone who is having a different experience, living a different reality. And especially if we really don't like it, it's an opportunity, you know, for us to explore what's being brought up.

I went through an NLP training, like a pretty intensive one. And one of the core tenets is can I have a respect and really just an acceptance of how someone else has a worldview?

Yeah.

What is another person's worldview? And can I just allow. Can I untangle all the parts of myself that is trying to make that other person change their worldview so that I feel okay in their presence? That is.

That is not that responsibility.

That is a really big one. And I can see how this has played out because I think you did a solo cast recently, about 10 spiritual lessons or 10 lessons you learned from pole dancing. People don't think of an MD as a pole dancer. Like, that's a pretty big gap for most. So I assume, and I'd love for you to share, I assume that when you went public with the pole dancing, you probably got a lot of shade.

Oh, yeah, right.

Like massive shade. But it's something that we chatted about before I hit record. And I still want to know the question, the answer to this question. How do you maintain a connection to your own heart and your sovereignty, to you as a soul and dance and express yourself in public on the pole, but not. Not kind of sway into your shadow? That's wanting a thirst for attention. Like, how do you maintain that? It's just pure expression, pure essence.

It's not a goal for me to. To. To not sway into my shadow. If that were a goal, then I would be in the performative appeaser, you know, sort of energy of imagining that what's in my shadow is fundamentally bad and wrong. And I don't actually believe that anymore. I notice now all the time that I love attention, I love getting. That's why I have a social media account. Nobody who has a social media account can say that they don't want attention.

I mean, I just want it for business. I could give a fuck, honestly, about being famous. I just want it because I know it's really good for business because it helps the mission grow.

And that's a masculine perspective, Right. I'm a woman, and as David Data would say, you know, the feminine requires to be witnessed. Right? And the reason that I have a social media account might have been at times for my business. And arguably it is in many ways, you know, for growing my capacity as an entrepreneur. And it's also because I enjoy attention. I enjoy eyes on me. And what's interesting is that my capacity on a system level for attention has been really my. My coach, Whitney Helps me to, to. To understand this spectrum, right? Like, it's really limited on the ends, right? So I feel. I really don't like feeling invisible. But then I also kind of get squirmy when I have too many eyes on me, right? Like, there's this. I saw this image once, and it's like this 1950s woman in an old fashioned kind of bikini, and she's like, I think, smoking a cigarette and reading a paper, and there's all these men on beach chairs around her, like maybe like 75 men all around her staring at her. And I saw that image and I was like, one day I want to be that woman. Meaning that one day I want to feel the casual experience of enjoying, owning and really sort of like just being ambiently supported by the gaze, right, of men and women. But in this case, it's men in this little poster. And the truth is that if I was that woman today, I would feel like, oh, my God, what's happening? Is this safe for me? I don't know, are they bored? Do they want something from me? You know, I'd be in that sort of neurotic frenzy of caretaking and attempting to secure safety through my preoccupation with whatever was going on on the outside. And that same thing is at the heart of all of these destabilizing internal dynamics and also would make me a very poor lover, right? So, like, what I can offer erotically to a partner is being totally inwardly focused, attuned to myself, and expressing through my body the moment I am managing, you know, caring about, honestly my partner's experience and wondering if he's tired or bored or if I'm taking too long to climax or whatever are the things, then I am out of my body, right? And I cannot offer him anything. And that's what makes for a bad lover, right? So the. The experience of wanting attention is something I've had to titrate into, right? So I, like, inched my way. If you scan my Instagram feed or whatever, I've inched my way into bolder and bolder expression to see what that would invoke within me and if I could stay with myself, right, and hold whatever came up, you know, because social media can be a very spiritual practice, right? Like, I can take every little comment, I can look at the comments or not, and then I can take every little comment. And anyone that bothers me, I can recognize that a part of me agrees with them, right? A part of me agreed that I have really embarrassed myself, right? And I've made A big mistake for my career. And now I've undermined all of the work that I've done for all of the people, you know, who needed my help and support. I've undermined it by going crazy. A lot of people have wondered if I'm having like a psychiatric episode.

Because you're pole dancing?

It's more than that. I guess it's my consistent decision to integrate this part of my life that people feel shouldn't be shared. Like, why don't you keep that to yourself? Why do you. Are you such an attention seeking narcissist? Stay in your own lane, Stay in your box. Be a doctor, right? It's part of the programming of stay in your box. And women need to stay in one particular identity. And if they don't, then what. What's going to happen? You know, something horrible is going to happen to all of us, right? Especially people accuse me of, you know, creating material and putting content out there that is injurious to their children. Meanwhile, I'm like, why is your child on Instagram? Or whatever. But the. Or like, why am I, why am I such an attention seeker? Why don't I work on. Right? So all of these things, if they bothered me, it was because there's a part of me that agreed. And so how could I develop intimacy with that part story? And why that part actually imagines that it's a problem, you know, if I am this kind of woman, what is this kind of woman, right? What am I what storying around that. And so the experience of pole dancing for me and she sharing exotic dance and sharing more of my body in a way that feels good to me, has been inspired by other women. So the permission field that I've been offered by women who dance exotically, you know, who pull dance and who share, I mean, I probably spend. Lord, like, I've joked, like, way more than my blue blockers can protect me from watching women dance. I mean, it's one of the great pleasures of my life is like literally watching videos of women dance. Whatever I feel. And now I'm also on like voice reclamation thing. And so I'm singing and taking singing lessons and I have these teachers and I just, I listen to them sing and it's like this, it activates a hunger in me to, to experience within them. It's, you know, probably what men feel when they watch martial artists or boxers or MMA fighters. Like, I want to feel that in me. And I have so much admiration. It's so much inspiration and just the beauty, you Know, the beauty that a woman can channel through her vessel. It's, like, so extraordinary. And so that permission field really opened up in me. Plus, you can't dance in sweatpants. You can't even dance in shorts, right? Like in pole dancing, right? Like, you need the contact for this athletic expression, right? So it's actually like a part of it's built in. You know, I only ever danced in sweatpants before. That was literally when I would dance hip hop or twerk or African. Like, it was only ever in sweatpants. And it's because I had a lot of shame issues around my legs and my body. And it was just transformed in the crucible of not men's eyes, but women's eyes. Like, the approval of the women around me and the permission that they gave me to be in my body in this way and to work with the energy of my body, I wanted to share that. I mean, every time I could sufficiently experience a choreography and I could video it and put it to, like, interesting sounds or music or whatever and create a little art piece out of it, it was like the joy I experienced doing that. That's what I was sharing and am sharing, is this is my joy, right? And if you don't vibe it, enjoy your life. Like, move on. But that's the erotic caress of the enemy, is that I have folks who've literally been persistently following and commenting and wanting me to do differently and be differently and stop it or whatever, but they're, like, obsessed with me, right? It's like it's their kink. Yes. It's like the conspirituality. Dudes, I don't know. I don't know much about them, but I know that they're masturbating to me on the regular.

Like, oh, my God, those people trigger the. Out of me.

I haven't delved deeply into it, but I.

Because I don't like reading Spirituality, I don't even want to give them voice.

It's just an example. Like, it's like the boy who pulls the braids of the girl on the playground that he likes. You know, it has that energy.

There is that childlike kind of playfulness. But, like, we're adults here, yo. Come on now. Okay, so what I got from you is that that expression is coming from a place of. Yes, wanting to be seen, but just for the joy of wanting to be seen, not to fulfill a well inside of you that you're trying to, you know, subvert or not pay attention to.

And to play with it. Right? Like, If. If I only was interested in being seen through the lens of my own idealization, right? So I only wanted people to say, oh, wow, you're so amazing. You're such a good dancer. You're so bold. You'. Courageous. Thank you. Thank you for paving the path for all women. Blah, blah, blah. These things that people do say, if that's why I was doing it, then I would be disappointed, frustrated, angry, and take the bait of defending myself to the people who didn't offer me that. But if why I am doing it is for the play of whatever arises, then there's kind of no rules to the game other than that. It's all. It's all, you know, for the play of it, right? So, like, people don't like it. Ooh, that's cool. I'll make a funny video about how, like, I'm taking notes on everybody's criticisms, and in the end, I have, like, a tape on my face, you know, and my white coat back on, right? And if people do like it, great. But it's. In the end, it's all just a projection screen. These aren't people. I don't know these people. They're not even real. This is the metaverse, right? Like, so it's just. It's a practice for me to explore my own relationship to my own spaces of shame, the ways that I'm still not giving myself permission. I mean, I just did an event, as, you know, yesterday with Aubrey Marcus and his, like, fit for service people, and I did a slide presentation. They've never had anybody bring slides. I was like, don't invite the nerdy doctor then if you don't.

Did you bring your own projector?

Like, no, but I should have, because they had to. Like, they had, like, seven people working on getting me a projector anyway, so I gave, you know, what was like a. You know, I brought the heat about psychiatry and gave, you know, elements of presentation I've given many times before. But I felt such. I gave myself permission to, you know, as I've done here, to speak the way I actually speak in my real life. And I'm. You know, I grew up in New Jersey and then in New York, and I have a potty mouth, and I have a way of speaking that I have reigned in, so that when I would speak about matters of clinical significance and importance, I would bring a certain cadence, and I would self monitor and censor, and I would assume that that would only enhance my credibility. And I could turn this on and off at will. And my friends and My kids are always like, mama, but you don't actually talk like that in real life. And so now I feel like the person I am here sitting in this chair is the same person that's going to take the plane home to Miami, is the same person that's going to see my kids tonight, is the same person who's going to go out to dinner with my girlfriend, and hopefully the same person who's going to be in bed with my lover. Right? So, like. Like, it's all one human. And that habit. And not that there aren't elements of you you should bring to the fore appropriately, whatever, but that is actually what a lot of people have struggled with is the. And arguably I have struggled with is the assumption that there are appropriate parts of you for certain contexts and then appropriate parts of you for other contexts and do us all a favor and don't induce discomfort in me. Right? Like, so that's where the responsibility grid breaks down, is if it's my responsibility to make you comfortable, then it's my responsibility to get vaccinated and wear a mask for your grandma, right? So if we are taking radical responsibility for our experiences and actually enjoying the adventure of whatever arises inside of us because of what we don't, like, you know, about what's in front of us, that's a very different fabric of society that we're consenting to and participating in that is. This is like, where sovereignty can manifest in a very mundane way. The opportunity to say, I'm actually responsible for my experience, no one else's, and I can exercise choice around it. I can leave, I can turn, you know, around, I can close my eyes, whatever. And it starts with imagining, you know, that somebody should not do or do or, like, make me feel a certain kind of way through their choices. It's like, so it's so simple. And to see that has been really helpful for me, you know, to see how many people feel that I should do differently or be differently, you know, in order for them not to have to dislike it.

Let's. Let's explore this metaphysical question as we say goodbye, okay? This question of if we have all these parts and these parts essentially are either wanting to be expressed or wanting to be healed, then what is the wisdom that is required to love all of our parts?

So this is why I've so vibed internal family systems and parts work, although you seem to know about it.

I have the book in the studio. I know about Schwartz's work, but I haven't dove in. There's so many Things to explore.

I know. No trust.

It's like how I go to one thing at a time here. I totally know I can't have all the drawers open.

I totally get it.

But I will. You know, I have a Runway.

I'll tell you a funny story quick about Dick Schwartz, who I contacted to express my deep appreciation. You know, I read his book no Bad Parts. It's extraordinary. And I. And it's so resonant with my, you know, sort of of transformation of victim, consciousness, effort in my life and intention, which is to say, you know, what if there is no actual enemy, right, that is outside of us? Well, but then what if there's an enemy inside of us, right? So then begs the question, how do we interact with that enemy inside of us? Do we power over it? Do we crush the ego? Right? Or Ryan Holiday.

Yeah, the ego is the enemy. I'm like, what do we don't agree with?

I do. Right. So I read this book and it's about how all the parts inside of you have positive intent. They have a reason for being. And when you lean in with curiosity and you interact with the parts of you that don't want you to lean in with curiosity, and you just treat every single thing that arises inside of you as well informed, well intentioned and holding very important information for yourself and your ability and capacity to navigate your own ship with the discernment of a wise captain. Then again, there's just opportunities where before there was struggle and suffering. So I really love this rubric. And I reached out to him, I said, listen, I so admire what you've created and I want to learn more and I would love to interview you. And he writes me back and he's like, well, thank you. And I have looked into you and your website and I am not available to be interviewed because of your Covid related beliefs. And I was like, okay, this is rich. The irony, right?

The irony.

The founder of Internal Family Systems, there's no bad parts, but here I am a bad part that he's unwilling to interact with. It's so. It was very funny, but it just shows you how, how insidious. And a lot of the Internal Family Systems folks seem to have taken the bait, you know, around the whole pandemic stuff.

Well, let the message land and don't kill the messenger.

Yeah, I'm very practiced at that, actually. And, and I, I made a joke in response and he received it warmly and helped me with referrals and whatever. So it was, it's fine. But it was that's interesting, right? Just shows like how, you know, how these blind spots can, can really hold a lot of our unexplored and then projected dimensions of self. And that when we are willing to non coercively interact. Because that's what I found, right? Because we'll have these parts that show up and then through our best spiritual intentions, we'll want to talk them out of the veracity of their claims. For example, I was like on my back patio a month ago or so and it was just so beautiful and like the light streaming through the trees in this magical like Florida, like dewy air. And I felt this longing to have somebody with me to experience that moment, right? And I was by myself and I just felt really lonely. Like, just like deep but simple loneliness. And I had a part then arise immediately that said, you're not alone. You have your girlfriends over here all the time and your kids are here and look, your chickens and cats are right there and it's fine and your man's on in the mail, you know, and whatever. And I could have colluded, blended, it's called when you really over identify with one part over another. I could have colluded with that part and said, you're right, everything's fine. But then I don't develop intimacy with the lonely part, right? And I preferentially interact with the part that says everything is fine. And that is what can create a schism inside of me, a fragmentation and ultimately a war within myself that gets played on the outside where that I. I manifest experiences for that loneliness to actually be seen again, maybe in more challenging terrain, right? And so if I'm not going to coerce the loneliness that it's wrong and that I'm not actually lonely, I'm not going to gaslight my own damn self, right? I'm not going to be the parent to myself, to the crying child that says, you're okay honey, stop crying. No, he's not okay. He's crying, okay? It's not okay. So how do I meet the lonely part? Honoring it's, you know, it's, it's welcome presence in my system that for me has been totally game changing because it means that I interact with the parts of myself I by myself that I don't actually want to know with intimacy with a baseline of interest. Like I sometimes joke, it's like I actually started to give a shit about myself like and actually want to care and actually listen, right? It's like resolving this conditioning we have that listening costs us something. And actually listen to what's going on inside myself. This self. Relating this self. Intimacy has been my devotional practice because outside of. And sometimes, honestly, this can look like feeling something unwanted in my body and choosing to sit on the couch for 10 to 15 seconds and just sort of like be with wherever the sensation exists in my body, with my attention. That's it. Sometimes I can't make it past 15 seconds without, like, flying into my mind and escaping and dissociating. Truly, like, literally that view. And in somatic experiencing, there are practices called pendulation, you know, where you can. Okay. If you can't do it for much longer, then you take your attention to, like, a part of your body that's not feeling the thing and you kind of go back and forth easier way in. Right?

Yes.

And it's. This is real for all of us. Right. So I've. I've loved the experience of orienting towards my own self with a baseline of emotional maturity that says, I'm here, I'm interested, and I fundamentally welcome whatever is into the space without judgment.

I remember I sat in a vipassana and the focus from Goinka was just to. To have the sensation and the triangle on your nose.

Yeah.

And that was when I really. I mean, I didn't know about ifs then. That was 2016. And I. It was the first time I had cried, but I didn't know why I was crying. Yeah. Because I just focused on the sensation. My body did the rest. I'm not saying that everybody should go do a vipassana because it's hard.

Yes.

But. But like, there's so much beauty in what you're describing. The thing that I maybe has. I've had trepidation about Schwarz's work is that it seems so intellectual. But I like the way that you described it because it's a somatic experience with ifs.

Yeah. Yeah. So I have like, a rubric that helps me in my own life. Sort of like an order of emotional operations. And I call it Feel It, Face it, Free it. So, like, first I create the conditions to do what I just said. Like, literally feel it. And parts work is in the feel it category because you're actually entering through a sensation. Right. So you might. I have sessions with a teacher named Tom Holmes, and he's really been helpful to me in my process of exploring parts work. And so, like, we might start a session in the Sovereignty series. I actually have a personal session, which sometimes I'm like, shit, was that too much to, like, share my personal. That's Good freaking therapy session with paid customers. Okay.

See, but that's the mark of a good leader. Like we were talking about earlier. Like, share your.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Might. Might be such a thing as oversharing still, I'm not sure. Anyway, I'm learning. I'm figuring it out.

Sure.

So, you know, I might start a session. I might think of a situation that happened recently, like an interaction or something that I really didn't like, and then I will feel something in my body about that. And that's how you enter. It's like, okay, where is it? Does it have, like, a shape or a color? And it might be like, literally, like, I did one recently, and it was like this bar, like a silvery, metaly bar, like, sticking somewhere in my chest. Right. And when you work dyadically, like, when you work with a therapist, it's actually like family consolation. It becomes almost this, like, field of intention, and it's really trippy. Like, I'm not somebody who typically, like, I have very few memories of my childhood, apart from a few choice ones that are. Yeah. Savory. And, you know, it's not easy for me to, like, invoke images or memories or like, when, historically, when people are like, oh, what's the shape and color and temperature of the feeling? I'm like, oh, my God, give me a break. Like, I want to think. Think this through. Right. So I would have been somebody very susceptible to the intellectual dimensions. And this is really a framework to dialogue with yourself through the somatics of whatever it is that is being felt. And it just. It works. I mean, there's a reason that, you know, the trainings have a wait list of like a year, and I can barely find a therapist to refer my friends to. It's. It's a very powerful modality, and it's especially powerful, you know, even though I'm a huge advocate of, like, do it yourself, you know, healing and integration, like, this is one area where it can. Can really help to find a skilled therapist, if. If that's possible.

Yeah.

And that's the feel it. Right. And then the faceit is all of this sort of, you know, exploring the mirror. Right. Exploring the projections, exploring how you can see yourself in the perpetrator, understanding how that which you judge is that which is inside of yourself that you fundamentally haven't developed intimacy with. Carolyn Elliott, who wrote Existential Kink like her Divided Will practices where you can begin to understand how what you think you want, the man, the money, you know, the house, you know, the success. Actually, a Good part of you doesn't want it, and that's why you don't have it. Right. And so instead, you're in this kink we've talked about of sort of getting off the struggle and then freeing. It is like making art out of your shit. Right. And. And really expanding your capacity to have and hold that which you say you want. Right. So, you know, I might walk out of here and feel like the sun on my skin, and I might literally stop, close my eyes, and just take 17 seconds to feel the pleasure of it. So expand into little experiences of pleasure. Right. The. The sensuality of my life. Like, start to make love literally to my life every day and find the already present pleasure that's available through you know, putting lotion on my body in. In a devotional way rather than just sort of like, oh, you, the fats in this oil are good for my skin, you know, kind of vibes. Right. Which is where I started. Trust me.

Yes.

And, you know, so what is it to really expand into your desires as allies and as forces that shape not only your life, but actually the fabric of the collective? I actually do think that, you know, especially women, of course, this is where I. It's what I study and what I am. And I do think that women in. In healed alliance with their own desires have the capacity to shape the direction of. Of the collective in a way that can bring into manifestation like that which we couldn't otherwise imagine. You know, it's essential, you know, that we begin to. To really heal the divide and disconnection from our own impulses and our felt experience through our body of what is wanted.

Existential kink. You're the third person. Yeah, that has brought that up to me in the past month. So that is in the show notes today. Kelly, I've so enjoyed this time with you. I could rock for another hour with you. But, like, at some point, you'll be.

Oh, my God. At some point, my voice is like.

And you have a plane to catch up.

Yeah.

So, I mean, I probably got through two or three of my questions, so, you know, at some point, the stars will align. We'll podcast again.

Yes. I find myself in Austin more often than I probably would otherwise intend for, so there's a reason to keep coming back here.

Yeah, well, it's kind of a vortex of.

Yeah. For sure.

Creativity here and, like, entrepreneurism.

Yeah.

So at the core of everything we've discussed in all your books and just you. You as a woman, as a mom, as a, you know, whether or not you attach to this verbiage a healer.

Because I think I don't. But, yes, I assume.

I assume we all are walking this path and you know, Ram Dass, to. To really quote the. The essence of this, you know, we're all walking each other home. Yeah, I do believe that. I've had felt experiences of that in many different psychedelic journeys. And I feel it with you now. Like, as we walk each other home, how do we do it and live our life well? It's the question that I've been asking myself since 2015, since I started this podcast. How do I live my life well? How do we live our life well? What is the definition? What is the defining example or what is the way of being that you do your very loving best to embody that allows you to live your life well?

I think that what comes to me is embracing alchemy. You know, like embracing this principle of transforming and transmuting like that which would otherwise be fodder for struggle and suffering into laughter and pleasure. That it's not just. Just like this trite concept. It's a real experience that you can have in every day, you know, where you. You acknowledge that when you betray yourself or abandon yourself and you caretake or you, you know, you. You violate. Like, even right now, I'll just tell you, I've had to pee for probably like half an hour, right? And I have calculated, you know, okay, how close are we to closing out the conference? Should I just wait? Is it going to be disruptive if I just say, you already told me I could go pee anytime. You told me that at the beginning. But I'm in my curated appeasing caretaker mode, worrying about the quality of the podcast, like, over my biology and impulse. So it's like these little ways that I now I know that I'm choosing to come into opposition with my body in these small ways, but it's real and it matters. And I could beat myself up about it and be like, oh, my God, I knew better. I should have just paused. Or I can just laugh about it as I'm doing, tell you about it, right? Like, and so there are little ways and opportunities that we have to know better and not do better and still alchemize that. And then the big opportunities, we have to know better and actually do better, right? And to grow the muscle of choosing ourselves in every moment, which again, I tend to define as exercising our power of will without needing somebody to be. To be bad and wrong in order to do it and access it. That for me is my daily practice. And it's really tough. It's really challenging. And also to wear the villain crown, I call it. Right. To get really good at being seen as bad and wrong in the eyes of another and just sort of being like, yeah, almost enjoying it in a way. Right? So re centering and relocating the source of our pleasure and delight and laughter and lightness into these places that previously held so much shame and constriction. Like that's the real game. It's probably not dominating ourselves in an unattuned way, like force and power over and hoping and praying and striving to like get an A plus on life and hope nobody notices that we're like creepy, ugly loser assholes like down beneath. Right? That's not the way. It's not gonna work. And so the practice of living well I think is engaging in this self alignment, like choosing your damn self enough times throughout the course of the day. And when you fail to just sort of recognize that happened and intend to do so differently tomorrow.

Thank you. Thank you for that. And it's this humility and this fucking fierceness. They're both there. And I know you guys can feel this. So it's Kelly Brogan. MD is the website.

Yeah, I earned those credentials.

All right, all right.

Still using them.

So go there. Oh, and also the sovereignty series. So joshtrend.com forward slash Kelly Brogan. The code is Josh20. Thank you for the discount.

Yes.

And we covered so much ground. Like, is there anything before you pee that you can share when it comes to sovereignty and these parts, you know, it's such a. We scratched the surface, Kelly. We really did. Like, it's something like this. You could sit with pillows on the floor and some tea, some microdosing and just like talk about this stuff all day. Because this is where the juice of life and of wellness and of wisdom really is in all these things. So thank you. And if there's anything finally you could share, please do so. Otherwise we'll let you go.

Oh, my God, no. I've loved this conversation. And it's. It feels very. There's a part of me that is just so delighted that I. It's. It's working out, you know, to be who more of who I am. Right. Because there was a. There was a scary moment in the past year, half year and a half or so, where I was like, oh, this is not going to work out well for you. You know, you're going to be like homeless pretty soon and your kids are going to be in Foster care. And I feel like, oh, it does work out. And so that's what I would want to, like, transmit to folks, you know, who are feeling this, like, rustling inside their cage of self, to move towards the discomfort. Right. To expand into identity, disrupting choices, and to just know it not only works out, but there's such a different comportment towards life where it just becomes like a game and adventure. A play, which probably is my little girl coming out and peeking out and being like, my inner girl. She wants to dance and sing and play and wear tutus and heels and, you know, laugh on the beach with a. With a beach ball. And how can I create the conditions for her to feel that's actually safe while also discerning, like, not giving her the wheel? Right. So to be my own inner mother and father, to bring them online. So, yeah. So thank you for this opportunity and the implicit validation therein. I will take it and relish it. And. Yeah, that. My latest project is the Reclamation Radio podcast.

That's right.

I just started in January, and I came out the gate with a lot of the topics we've covered as you referenced.

Is it mainly solo casts or do you do guests?

It's probably mainly solo casts and then periodic interviews with folks that I might. Like we were talking about, might not otherwise get into the limelight.

Sure.

And we'll see. I don't know what the hell I'm doing. We'll see what happens. You know, we'll see what emerges. Like, I'm on this magic carpet ride, and I have no idea where it's going.

All right, well, I like the. I like the carpet ride, so thanks for being here. So from my heart, from Kelly's heart to your heart, we're both wishing you love and wellness. We'll talk to you soon.

Peace.

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