Learn THIS Essential Wisdom For Rapid Behavior Change | Eric Zimmer @WellnessAndWisdom

If we look at the trans theoretical model of change, first stage is you're not aware at all that a change is even needed. And then we move into a state of pre contemplation. The rumblings are growing louder. Then there's a contemplation phase where you're like, okay, yeah, I'm really actively thinking maybe I should make this change. And then finally you get to a stage where you're actually ready to make a plan and change. All of those, though, are part of the the change process. So anywhere you are on that path, you've got to honor the change you're in.

Eric, welcome back to the podcast. We learned from you on episode 320 and now you have just celebrated 500 episodes on the one you feed. 500 meaningful episodes. Since you came on. We have gone through a death and rebirth process process where we used to be wellness force and now we are wellness wisdom. So thank you for being here.

Well, I'm happy to be, I'm happy to be part of both of them.

Yes, that was the older version wisdom.

As you move forward.

Yeah, the death and the rebirth that I've gone through recently. You know, speaking of death and rebirth as a concept, there has been so many conversations you've had with some of the most intelligent and also heart centered minds out there in the world of, I guess you could say, wellness and personal development. And I'm sure you get this question a lot, so I want to spin a little bit on it. Somebody might ask you, Eric, what's the best guest you ever had? And you probably go, I don't know. That's a challenging question. But what is one piece of wisdom recently in the past few months, with all the conversations you've been having on your podcast, and also the parable of the wolf that's evil, the wolf that's loving, what comes up for you when you get that information of what is the biggest piece of wisdom I've received recently?

I don't know if I could boil it down to a specific piece, but I'll say a theme that keeps showing up again and again has been this idea of people thinking that the wolf parable feels a little dualistic to them. And it feels a little bit like, hey, you know, to think of emotions like greed or anger or hatred as, as only bad is to cut off a part of ourselves sometimes. And so there's been a lot more movement, particularly in just a lot of guests we've had recently talking about, like, how do I befriend these negative emotions how do I not ostracize them? How do I, as the Buddha once said about his nemesis Mara, how do I invite them in for tea? And so that's not brand new, but it's just over and over and over again. I keep sort of hearing that response from guests, and it's, you know, it's been resonating.

It's a beautiful reminder, too, with the death and rebirth that I just shared with you. If I focus on. If we focus on individually or collective, what we don't want, like, oh, my God, I got to get rid of these negative emotions. I got to get rid of these negative feelings. I have to get rid of blank. Then essentially, on some level, whether it's a theoretic or in a world we don't understand, we're essentially attracting that. At times, I'm not a huge proponent of the law of attraction, but if ever I'm fighting against something or if I have a mission where I'm just pushing against something instead of being for something, do you find that in your work and in all the people you interview, that that doesn't tend to work out? In other words, standing for something versus standing against something?

I think there's a few things in what you said there that are relevant, but, yes, I do think standing for something versus against something is always a better position to come from. I do think we respond more to the positive in a lot of ways. It certainly makes for a more hopeful vision of things. So I think that is certainly true. And I think also the idea of what you resist persists, this sense of if I'm fighting against these negative emotions all the time, in a sense, I am engaging with them in a very strong way, and so not resisting them so much can be very helpful. What I think is the question I've been asking guests a lot about, and I think it runs through so much of the podcast, really, from the beginning, as I look back, is this idea of we can look at dealing with negative emotions or difficult emotions. There seems to be sort of two broad approaches. Approach one is to sort of go in and root them out. You know, cognitive behavioral therapy. Look at them, see where they're false, change your belief, but you're actually going in and you're, You're. You're kind of working with them and trying to sort of uproot them. And then there's another model which we see reflected in more recent therapies like acceptance and commitment therapy, where the sense is more just let them sort of be. Notice that they're There, but disconnect from them a little bit and just sort of let them be. You don't have to go in and really mess with them. And I see that sort of two approaches. I see it show up in psychology. I see it show up in a lot of different spiritual teachings. You know, even Buddhism itself has some teachers in schools that lean on more, one of them much more than the other. And I think early on I was looking for and asking like, well, what's better? What's the right way? And I think I've discovered that that is a false question, you know, that it is really much more. Those both have their validity and their usefulness. The skill is really in knowing which one works for me in what situations. And everybody's a little bit different in all situations are a little bit different. So a hard and fast rule doesn't really work. So I'll bring that all the way back around to this idea of what you resist persists, sometimes just letting you know not resisting is the right approach. There are other times I think it's worth going in and really looking at and sort of saying, all right, I've got a lot of negativity here. What can I do with that?

I wonder, too. One thing I was noticing that we didn't talk about last time was your certification in interfaith Spiritual director. I, first of all, I don't even know what that means. So maybe we could start there. And then how does that relate, you know, faith or belief in a higher power? Some people call it religion, some people call it spirituality, some people call it connection with source or higher intelligence. Unpack those two.

Yeah, well, interface. Spiritual direction is. It's spiritual direction for people of all faiths. That's obvious, right? Spiritual direction is an idea that really got its name. It got called that, and it came sort of out of the Catholic Church. And it really was the idea that it's really helpful to have somebody walking the path with you who's not in a position of authority, like a priest or, you know, a Zen master or somebody who's not in a position of authority, but somebody who's maybe a little further along the path that you can just discuss your spiritual life with. So this idea really, like I said, really got named Spiritual Direction out of the Catholic Church. And then it just. Lots of other faiths sort of saw that it was valuable. Now, the Catholic Church didn't start the idea of a spiritual friend. We can go back as far as, you know, the Bhagavita, or we can look at Buddhism and there's a lot of talk about spiritual friendship. So spiritual direction is. That's another word for it, spiritual friendship. It's somebody that you talk about your spiritual life with. And so now what does that mean? What does spiritual life mean? Obviously, that's a term that means a thousand different things to a thousand different people. To me, it means what matters most, what. What really is important to me. What really matters to me. What do I feel like is the deeper meaning of things. And that may or may not have a deity as part of it. You know, it may or may not have a higher power. You may believe in universal intelligence, you may not. You may think we are a random collection of atoms, but that doesn't mean that life doesn't have meaning. And so for me, spirituality is really about these deeper questions of meaning and connection.

That's beautiful. I'm curious, why do you think that some people tend to go the path of nihilism? Why do people go that way? Because if there's no meaning and there's really no point to it all, and life is about hedonism and, you know, let's just have as much fun as possible. What do you think it is about the human psyche or maybe just our current level of development as a society that makes people tend to lean towards nihilism?

Well, I think, you know, we might. We might. We might determine between hedonism and nihilism because hedonism, at least in the classic sense, sense involves a certain view on the world that does say, hey, the meaning of the world is embedded in the pleasures of the world, and it's not necessary. That's not the same thing, I think, as. As. As nihilism. Now, they often cross over because you'll find a lot of people who become nihilistic also sometimes can become hedonistic. But. But a hedonistic person, in a positive sense of the word, is somebody who greatly appreciates the pleasures of the intent on enjoying them. So there can be a beauty in it, you know, why do people turn towards nihilism? I mean, I think we have a. We have a. People often describe it as a crisis of meaning. What's happened is over a long, you know, over a very short period of time, very long standing beliefs that humans had, that there was an underlying unity and purpose to the world, whether that be, you know, Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or Daoism, or going back further and further into all the different indigenous traditions. Humans grew up with this sense that said, hey, there's a reason. There's something Underlying all this, that makes sense. And modern science has thrown a lot of that in doubt. And so, so much of what traditionally anchored us has gone out the window. And when that happens, you can find yourself in a position that says, none of this has any meaning. And then I think you couple that with, we live in a culture that is very intent on selling us things. I mean, I sell people things. I mean, I don't. I'm not. I'm not demonizing.

Yes, they're going to be conscious capitalism.

Yes, yes. But when we're in a place where what the primary focus is is getting people to purchase things, you are, in a sense, by. When you're selling, you are doing it by telling people there's something that they need that they don't have. And so I think that also. And so what ends up, or what ends up bubbling up out of that very often is that the things that give the most pleasure in the fastest amount of time become the things that get the most traction. So we live in a culture that. That really does tend to push us towards the things very often that mean the least.

I remember in your past, on a previous interview, we had talked about your journey with addiction. And so I'll link that in the show notes without going too deep into the weeds on that, from where you are in your life now, you know, at this 500 episodes with these incredible minds and hearts, you have really walked the path up the mountain. And I think about what Dispenza says in his work, where when compassion becomes unconditionally ordinary and familiar, well, then you've progressed from knowledge and experience to wisdom. What. What knowledge and experience have you for the majority of your life been wanting to turn into wisdom?

Well, that's a great question. I think that. I mean, compassion is obviously one of those things. You know, compassion is a. Is a great place to come from. I certainly have. The serenity prayer has always been, to me, a really incredibly important thing, right? Where it says, grant me the serenity to accept the things I can't change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. And so for me, that's always been a hugely important thing. Can I do both those things? You know, can I really act in a positive way towards the things that I can and should change? And can I really let the things that I can't go by without ruffling me so much? And how do I consistently have the wisdom to look at that? So I think that's the first thing that comes to mind when you ask.

That question, I remember you had said in the past we went pretty deep into self love. And you said, self love is both the way I prevent and treat depression, which I thought was really profound. Because self love, there's probably more information on self love now than ever, which is a good thing. But self love is not some light switch that you flick on some random day. There's a journey to get to loving self in your programs and a lot of the work that you do with clients. Is there an abc? Obviously we can't do the whole Alphabet, but is there an ABC of using self love to treat and prevent depression?

Well, I think what you said is important, that it's not something we can just flip a switch on and suddenly have. I feel like it has taken, you know, years to develop a deeper and deeper self love. But I think, you know, self love, when it comes to preventing depression is really about not allowing myself to get locked in the ruminative states where my brain sort of swirls round and round. That goes for any sort of ruminative state, but particularly the ones that are self critical that we know is a recipe for depression. And so that's the preventative piece. The treatment piece is really then recognizing when I fall into depression that don't blame myself for that. Don't make it worse by then suddenly saying, oh, I shouldn't feel this way, right? I mean, I've been teaching people for years now and running programs and doing coaching. And so it's one of the dangers of doing that, I found, is that I start to think I shouldn't have normal human things happen. You know, I get depressed, I shouldn't get depressed. Don't I know enough by now? Haven't I done enough inner work by now? Haven't I? And that's just a way of letting the inner critic really take over. And so I find that self love in those moments is really important by just going, you know what? It's okay. This is what happens to people. Another phrase for, for self love is self compassion. And another phrase for that that I love from a guest we interviewed, and his book was called be on your own side. And I love that idea. Like I am always on my own side. I don't mean that like I always think I'm right in an argument or anything like that. I mean, I always want what's, you know, what's the best and healthiest thing for me. You know, I always want to support myself. I always want to have my own back. And that's a really powerful place to come from.

Yeah.

So I don't know if I gave you an ABC there, but you did.

You gave a great abc. Yeah, the.

The.

The Spiritual habits program that you have. And probably at this point, thousands of people have gone through these programs. Definitely hundreds. Right, For Spiritual Habits.

Yep.

And so in this spiritual habit program, this is about giving people, like, secure daily practices where people can go way deeper into the Alphabet on the self love aspect. But what I've been looking forward to this week in preparation for this podcast is thinking about the core difference between two aspects that are commonly misunderstood. And one is emotions, one is feelings. You know, one is guideposts, and then one is terra firma. You know, what actual energy and motion we're experiencing. I'm curious how you feel about this, because there's a lot of different camps. You know, there's only 21 emotions. There's only four emotions. I tend to think that there's five. A combination of joy and love, fear and sadness. And then discuss your anger. So there's six in there, but joy, love, fear, sadness, disgust, and anger. Now, I want to preface this by saying those are things that are actual energy in our nervous system that is wanting to be moved, that is wanting to be cleared. Of course, the guidepost could be, you know, I'm feeling lonely, I'm feeling excited, I'm feeling anxiety about a stage presence. I mean, there's many ways which we can describe the emotions. But. But from your work and what you do in this world, how would you open up the conversation of feelings versus emotions?

Boy, that is a one of those things that I think is very difficult to tweeze apart. But I do think if you use the word, the words as you just did, feelings for things that cause the energy in the nervous system, it's a more basic thing, and it's a way of separating that from emotion, which I would say, you know, you could have many, many flavors on. I'm sort of agnostic on the question of how many do we actually have. I think what is more important is our ability to get more granular with what's happening. And so one of the things that I do, I don't do it in the Spiritual Habits program. I do it in the program that comes after that, that we call circ connection, is I teach this model I call the Emotional storm. And it basically says, you know, when we just. If we were to say, I'm having a strong emotion, I'm really angry right now. Right. That thing that we are describing sort of Monolithically is really a combination of things. It is, you know, there's the situation itself. So that is playing a role. There is, as you said, basic bodily sensations. What am I, what's actually happening in my body? Contraction, heat, tightness. You know, then there is what we would, what we would refer to and say is the, the feeling word. Sad, angry, depressed. Right, that's there. Then there's the thoughts that come along with it. You know, there's all. There's always thoughts there. And then the last thing is there's usually an urge, urge or a behavior that the emotion is pushing you towards. Angry. I'm going to tell him what I think of him. Right. There's a. There's a. There's a desire, there's a direction that the whole thing is trying to push you. And so what I find really helpful is if we can learn in moments of emotional unrest to tweeze that apart and recognize those individual pieces. Sort of like a storm is made up of thunder and lightning and rain and wind. It's got all those different components altogether. A thunderstorm is a very scary, violent sort of thing. But if you separate any of those things out, you're like, oh, rain, okay, no big deal, right? Oh, thunder, no big deal. And so that's kind of more. What I'm looking at is less, you know, how many of what is there? But how capable am I and how able am I to sort of separate this overwhelming experience into more discrete parts that I can then work with? And then at that point I can decide where do I want to intervene. Do I intervene at the thought level? Do I intervene at the nervous system level? Breathing, you know, move my body? Do I. Do I have to intervene at the urge level? Like don't do, don't pick up the phone, you know, don't pick up the drug. So, you know, by, by taking it apart, I can then also think about where's the best place for me to intervene at the moment and try and work with this more skillfully.

Maybe for the single people. Don't send the 14th text in a row. Right? Like don't do it. Like just breathe and that's right. Yeah. I not going to help. No. One of the things I was looking forward to unpacking with you, this is a gift I got maybe seven years ago. It's book from Forest Landry. It's called the Tiny Book of Essential Wisdom. And I wanted to just read you a short passage. It's maybe 30 seconds and just see what arises for you because I Think this wasn't necessarily planned. I sat down, I had a lot of questions for you before I interview and I just happened to go to the bookshelf and this book was staring me in the face, Eric. So I'm going to read this to you and then just please share whatever comes up. Nothing which remains within the focus of attention will remain unchanged. The maximum degree of choice in change is possible where attention is greatest. By changing many thoughts, one changes a single quality of feeling. By changing many feelings, one changes each emotion. By changing many emotions, one changes a single thought. Feelings change with our awareness and attention. Awareness of feeling always changes it. Feelings remain constant until experienced fully at the level of self from which they arise.

Yeah, a couple things come up from that. That's a really interesting passage. And I do not know that Forest Landry or that book. So I'm intrigued. I think there's two things that stuck out there. The first is the fact that these things really are intertwined and they cause each other. You'll get people debating, do thoughts cause emotions or do emotions cause thoughts or do you have feelings? And then you know, like what happens in what order? And to me it's been more helpful to think about the fact that these things co arise. They really do. You rarely find one without the other. They just, that's we. We can talk about them differently. They may be separate processes in some way, but in another way they're not. So that's the first thing that, that I think that that piece speaks to. And then I think the second is yes, awareness is kind of the, the whole game in the beginning because if we're not aware of something, we can't do anything about it. And I think so much of the work in, you know, personal growth is about making what's unconscious or subconscious or subtly conscious more conscious become pulling it into awareness and being able to really see it. In the Spiritual Habits program, we talk about triggers. Triggers in the sense of something that reminds you to do something or something that, that that causes you to do something. And that the most valuable trigger we can develop is emotion based triggers. And so we can, you know, we can have something on our calendar that tells us it's time to do this. We can have something that says, you know, every time I go in the bath, I'll engage in a moment of prayer or I'll engage in five deep breaths. So we can use triggers really skillfully. But when we can get to the point that our internal states become triggers in a conscious and positive way, life really starts to Change that's happening all the time. It's just usually not conscious. Today we are having some internal state that's causing us to think or. Or act in a certain way. If we can start to recognize what's happening and then sort of build little bits of if, then statements, you know, if I'm noticing tension and resistance, then I will take five deep breaths or substitute whatever intervention you want. That's where I think true transformation starts to happen, is when the difficulties in our lives prompt us towards skillful action and those things become connected. So that was the other thing that sort of came out of that. That piece.

I'm visualizing someone that is struggling with literally any kind of addiction. It could be pornography, shopping, drugs, workaholism. And at the core of this, and I'm sure you've heard this many times, I believe you even interviewed him as Dr. G. Gabor mate. And he talks about, you know, addiction essentially being the opposite of connection. The opposite of connection either to self or to others. When you were really coming out of the cave for so many years in addiction, what was the guiding light for you that allowed you to reconnect with self and to reconnect with others? What was the opposite of addiction for you?

I do think connection was a big part of it, you know, connection. Early on for me, AA was everything to me. It was. I went all the time. It was where I made friendships. It's where I felt connection to other people. It's where I laughed. It's where I understood myself. It was everything. And I think the best part of aa, the thing that's most important about it to me is the fact that it is a program that just has tons of community built into it. If you do it. If you do it right, it's all about the community. So I would say that was a big piece of it. You know, addiction for me, interestingly, was my drug use. And alcohol for a long time was not about shutting off feeling. It was actually about connecting. Drugs and alcohol for a long time connected me to life. I think I had gotten so good, good at just shoving everything down. And my depression has that sense of it, of a sort of deadness that when I would get drunk or high, I would suddenly be interested in the world again. I'd want to go out and do things, and I'd want to listen to more records, and I want to read that book, and I want to do this, and I want to talk to this person. And it. It helped me connect is what it did. Until, of course, it Turned a corner, you know, and then it just, you know, isolated me from the world. But what I was always chasing was connection.

Yes. Wow. And really, I'm curious. The connection piece, there's. There's one more passage from the book that I want to read, and Landry says, to experience a change in feeling, one must fully experience the feeling. When the channels of feeling are opened, love can flow outward again and manifest with new and different forms. Do you feel like the presence of community, knowing that rumination happens when we're alone? Is it the presence of community that allows us to fully experience the feeling?

It's an element of it. I don't think that all community, by its very nature, does that. We certainly could look and see communities where repression of feeling is encouraged and is the way of the way.

It's got to be a loving, supportive community.

Yeah, that's right. We could look at my early community of my family, and what I was taught was, don't feel. So it does have to be a loving, supporting community. You know, you asked about a piece of wisdom that, you know, I got from the podcast, and this is not a recent one, but it's one of the lines that still sticks with me because it kind of blew my mind at the time and said, when we're fully in control of our behavior, we're able to be free to feel our emotions fully. And I thought that was a really powerful thing when I, you know, in recovery, early on, if I thought that feeling something strongly would lead to me going out on a bender or, you know, buying heroin again, I had to be really careful, right? I had to really keep my feelings kind of pretty closely contained because, shit, what am I going to do? So if our behavior feels unsafe to us, and again, unsafe could be as minor as, you know, like you said, it could be a mild addiction to being on my phone. But if our behavior feels sort of out of control, we often have to sort of really put a lid on feelings. So I think, you know, being able to really feel our feelings comes from being in a safe community, being encouraged to do so, being taught how to do so, and finding the benefits of doing so. Because that phrase, feel your feelings sounds like a great one. Until oftentimes you start to do it, and then you're like, wait a second, you know, this is not getting better. You know, but if we can feel our feelings and let them flow through us, they are an energy that comes and goes. Now, you know, a lot of people say, well, you know, you won't feel anything for Longer than, you know, 90 seconds if you don't reinforce it with a thought. I don't know if I believe that. I feel like I felt things for a long time. It didn't feel good. But I do think that the conditions of some degree of safety have to. To be there. And those may look different for each person. Different people feel safe in different environments, but some degree of safety is. Is important there. And I do think we model what we see. If we're around other people who are feeling their emotions, who are going into them, they're modeling that they're talking about certainly sets the stage for us to be able to do it more easily. But I think that's, you know, that's a long journey, you know, for me. I sometimes still ask myself, like, you know, am I repressing emotions? I don't think I am, but I guess maybe I wouldn't know, right? Like, what else is there to come out? I'm not sure. You know, I frequently sort of do this sort of internal talking to myself where I sort of just keep saying to the person, parts of myself, like, if there's anything emotionally that we need to. We need to cover, I'm here for it, right? Like, it's safe. I'm here for it. I encourage it. You know, if there's something else I need to know, let it be revealed.

How has that played out in romantic or interpersonal relationships, that way of being?

It's funny because I'm in a. I am at about six years, six and a half years maybe, in a relationship, the best I've ever been in by not even a small amount. It's night and day, different, particularly from my last relationship, which was a long and brutal marriage. In that marriage, I would have told you that I was broken, that I just don't know how to do this. I can't do it. I just thought that was the part of my life I would never get figured out. Despite all the work I'd done on myself, all the healing I'd done, something there was never going to work. And when I got into this relationship with Ginny, it was just easy in a way it had never been before. Now, that is partially because she and I had both done an initial enormous amount of inner work up to that point. So in what ways that specifically, you know, helps in relationship, I'm not sure I can say, but I know it does. I mean, I think the biggest thing that makes it work between Jenny and I is that the first place we go looking when there's A problem is internally to self.

Start with self.

There's a disagreement, yeah, there's a disagreement between us. If there's something we don't agree on, if we, if emotions are getting riled, I very quickly turn and just start really looking internally. Is there something I'm doing? Is there something I'm not seeing? Am I missing something? Am I reacting in a habitual and conditioned way? Is this, you know, am I responding from my, my wounds rather than the best part of me? And I think she has a tendency to do that too. And if we don't do it right away, we do it very quickly. Right. You know, we, we. And so we almost always can come back together very quickly and say, hey, you know, here's how I respond. And it's almost always ends up being. I can't, I can think of very few times that the apologies haven't been mutual in that we both go, yeah, you know, I had, I see what my role is and I see what my role is. So I do think that that is, you know, all this work on emotion and healing has been hugely transformative to me in that relationship. And I would just say, broadly speaking, I mean, I don't have at this stage in my life really relationship problems. You know, most everybody I interact with, I get along with in a very, very loving and caring way. I'm not trying to paint it as a perfect picture, but for me, interpersonally things are very good.

It seems like I was talking about Dispenza's quote earlier, this unconditionally ordinary state of compassion. So it seems like in this relationship, the six years, there is a level of wisdom because of the inner work. But in the previous relationship, did you ever go through cycles for the people that are maybe experiencing challenges in relationship who are here with us? Did you ever go through cycles of self reflection where you knew that it was something you had to change but you weren't ready or that your partner wasn't self reflecting?

I would say in my last marriage, yeah, both those things. You know, I do think that a problem was I was a lot more self reflective and interested in the inner journey and my partner just wasn't to the same degree. She was interested in the external journey. She was very much about what was out there and how we arrange the things that are out there in a way to make us happy. And I'm not saying one approach is better than the other. I know which one works for me, right? Which is the one where I, where I work on the inner journey and she wasn't so interested in that. So that made things really, really difficult. We were just the wrong fit for each other. We valued very different things and no amount of self work on my part was going to make that situation work. Yes, God knows I tried. Yeah, God knows I tried. I really did. And I think she really did too. I mean, I do not want in any way to paint her like as a, as a shallow or anything other than a wonderful person. She, like me, was a person who had been very deeply wounded by her past and her family. And I had had, you know, lots of years in recovery, lots of years in therapy, lots of deep work and she had. And so I think she was operating from those places more than I was. And again, I'm kind of taking her inventory here and I hate to do that, but I just think we weren't matched in that way. And so my self growth wasn't going to change that. Yeah, I certainly think there are times in life where we're just at a place where we're not ready or we don't know how to make a change.

And I want to give everybody permission, like that's okay. You know, there's, we don't have to shame ourselves if we're in a position where we're not comfortable changing and we choose not to do it. I mean, there's so many layers there. But you know, not to shame spiral when somebody doesn't want to change.

That's right. If we look at the, you know, the, the trans, theoretical model of change, which is a really fancy, you know, study that people did on change, they talk about stages, right? The stages of change model. And there are stages where, you know, you could almost say in early, you know, the first stages, you're not aware at all that a change is even needed. You just don't think there's anything that needs to change. You know, then there is, you know, you could think of it. You gradually become more aware, oh, maybe something's not right here, maybe I should make a change. And then we move into a state of pre contemplation. We're not even fully, really thinking about making a change, but the rumblings are growing louder. Then there's a contemplation phase where you're like, okay, yeah, I'm really actively thinking maybe I should make this change. I'm not ready to do it yet. I may not know how to do it. I may stay here for, for a while, but I'm starting to think about it a lot more. And then finally you get To a stage where you're actually ready to make a plan and change. And so all of those though, are part of the change process. So anywhere you are on that path, you've got to honor the change you're in. And the thing that's interesting about that model, and I don't agree with all parts of it, but the thing that's interesting, interesting about that model is they say you got to do the work that's appropriate for that, the stage that you're in. So what a lot of people do is they, they get the first mild rumbling like maybe I should, something should be different in my life. And they jump right to immediately trying to change it. And that doesn't work because they haven't done the groundwork of really connecting more deeply to why it really matters to them. You know, they haven't built the plan, they haven't built the supply support systems to do it. They haven't. So, so there is, there are tasks that are appropriate in each of those stages and doing them can be helpful and make it more likely that you do change. So like you said, I don't think there's any shame. You're only where you are. When I'm working with a coaching client and we come up against something where they just are like, I don't know if I want to change. Like, I do not push in any way, shape or form. There's no point. Change is really, really hard when you're fully committed to it.

That's right. That's right.

Yeah. Right. I mean, it's next to impossible if you're not.

I've always asked myself this question, why don't people change? I'm sure you've had lots of questions like that in your own words, why is it that some people that, you know, they come from a great family. It may not have been the case for you and I, for maybe many people, but our families, truly with a level of intelligence, with a level of, of consciousness and development, they have, I believe this, that they do the best they can. I'm not just saying that because Brene Brown said it. I really feel like families do the best they can. Yet I've always asked this question, I'm curious how you feel about this. What is it that makes people actually want to change their behavior on a very high level?

What is, is almost always dissatisfaction. I mean, I don't know what else does it, you know, I really don't, I don't know what else at least starts the process besides, like, this isn't Working for me.

Okay. And then from there they move up the ladder from that place, dissatisfaction. Because dissatisfaction can only be a fuel source for so long.

Agreed. Agreed. Yes. There's a model of recovery that says, you know, you got to hit rock bottom, right? That's what causes change. That it's the, it's the pain that causes change. And like any, like any idea that gets a lot of traction, it has some truth in it. The truth in it is that yes, the pain and the dissatisfaction is important, but at the same time, I feel like that pain and dissatisfaction has to be met with hope. There has to be hope that the change can happen, that it'll be positive, that on the other side of it things will be better. And there has to be a vision for a better life. If you don't have both those elements, I don't think you've got a very good chance. You know, I was talking with somebody about this yesterday. In aa, they, before nearly every meeting they read these things called the Promises. They come as part of the AA Big book, you know, after step nine. And you know, they are this list of these things that will happen if you work, you know, if you work the steps, so to speak. And you know, it says things like we're going to know a new freedom and a new happiness. We'll not regret the past or wish to shut the door on it. We'll comprehend the word serenity and we'll know peace. Right. The feeling of uselessness and self pity will disappear. It goes on, goes on like this. Right. They're read before nearly every single meeting. And there's a reason for that. It's because they paint a picture of a future that is, that is really beautiful. And so yeah, you've. Dissatisfaction is the, is the starting point, but it, it doesn't, it doesn't last. And we need to have a more hopeful vision of the future. It also, you know, BJ Fogg said it so elegantly. We change better by feeling good than feeling bad. Now what that means is we're going to do better in the change process with positive reinforcement versus negative reinforcement.

Yeah. Wow, there's so.

But the pain is going to be the thing that generally that is going to push us towards saying, hey, you know, like, I need to give up alcohol. Why? Well, you know, because, you know, here's this list of eight things that really suck.

Yes.

About it.

There's so much there and I feel like we've scratched the surface. And I think about this paradigm of change and whether it's Charles Duhigg or B.J. fogg or anyone. Dr. Judd Brewer. There's so many schools of thought around the science of change. But I really love the way that you said first is the dissatisfaction and like actually maybe even what Landry said, to feel that. And then you can start to move up this ladder of using joy, using curiosity, using hope, using all these, I guess you could say I don't want to label them, but more positive feeling, more fun, feeling good, feeling emotions. And then that at some point, Eric, it becomes the fuel source. Right. For sustainable behavior change.

Absolutely. I mean, my work in recovery is not about alcohol or drugs anymore. I mean, I'm 15 years sober. It's. I'm not saying it's irrelevant. Like it would be a problem if I use them. Yeah. But I am not moving forward with changing my life and, and trying to do all the things I do because of the pain of drinking from 15 years ago. Like that just is non op. You know, it's. That's. When I think about what would happen if I drank again. That's a good deterrent, but it's not the motivating energy by any stretch of the imagination.

What's the moting. What's the motivating energy?

Now that's a really good question. You know, there is certainly some element in it of not wanting to suffer. Right. Like, I know what happens to me when I don't take good care of my mental, emotional, physical, spiritual health. I get, I fall into depression and that doesn't feel good. So I think that is still a motivating energy. But a lot of it is not so much like, what's the way to say it? I mean, I do a lot of it because I think it feels good, but it also picks up its own energy where the thing wants to be done for the thing itself. I don't know how else to say there's an element of. You know, I almost don't have a better way to say that than awareness wants to become more aware.

That's a perfect way to say it, actually. And your work can be found@oneyou feed.net and the Spiritual Habits program. Is there two last questions for you? Number one, and you had answered this a few years ago actually on episode 320. So the first question is at the center of all the things we've talked about. There's your soul. There's this awareness wanting to become more aware. And I believe that that is wellness. I believe wellness is this emanating force that we're all born with a birthright of wellness. But I'm curious now, 2022, how would you define that? What is well being? What does being well mean to Eric Zimmer today?

Being well to me would mostly be. And this is just the answer that comes to mind at 4:30pm on Tuesday, May 24. And it's going to be a incomplete answer by, by any measure, but what comes to mind is being well with whatever is. There's a, you know, there's. I can't remember. It's. I feel like it's St. Teresa of Avila who says, all is well, all is well, and all shall be well. Right? But there's an idea that hooked me from the very first time I ever heard it in high school about, with Zen Buddhism, and was the idea that no matter what's happening around me, there's a degree of wellness I can cultivate inside of me that that happens in the face of all those things. So that's what comes to mind right now.

That's beautiful. And the last question is when people want to take this journey, tell them, please, about the podcast. It's one of the podcasts that was inspiring to me when I started in 2015. You started in 2014. Tell them about the podcast. And quickly, how was that arc of learning changed for you? What did the podcast mean in the beginning versus what does it mean to you now?

The podcast is called the one you feed, and it's based on a old parable where, you know, we, we, we all have two wolves inside of us, a good wolf and a bad wolf. And the one that wins is the one you feed. And I asked guests that question, 500 episodes. How has the arc of learning changed? It's an interesting thing to think about, but it's funny, I was on an interview today, it's the last one I'm doing for a while because I am about to go on a hiatus. And I was sitting there thinking, in some ways, it felt so much like early on. And what I mean by that is just the joy in having a conversation with people that I admire about things that matter, that has. That is the theme that's run through it. And I would say also I wanted to do the podcast because I thought I really needed it, you know, and I still do. And I also know how valuable it is to people. Right. We just did a 500th episode, and that episode is all me interviewing listeners and listeners leaving us voicemails. And you hear all about the impact that you've had. And, you know, it just that of course, keeps me going. You know, hearing about how somebody says, well, I'm a better parent now because of the show or I was suicidal and now I'm not or any. I mean that just. I just feel so blessed to do the work I do.

Yes. Well, I'll close it like we started it. And that is, I'm super grateful for you. I'm grateful that we got to share time. That's what you had said you were most feeling in the moment. What was top of heart for you was just this gratitude. So thank you, Eric. Thank you for again coming on the new podcast Wellness Wisdom and sharing all this wisdom that you have, man. Really appreciate you.

Thank you, Josh. Every time we get to talk, I. I always enjoy it. I think you're great at what you do. It's just always a pleasure.

Thanks, man. Well, coming from what you do, that means a lot to me. So you guys check out Eric's podcast. It is phenomenal. Also, make sure you visit the show notes joshtrent.com 4, 5, 6 until Eric and I see you again, we're both wishing you love and and wellness. We'll talk to you soon. If you loved that episode, you'll love the episodes linked right here on this page. Also, if you have any thoughts, drop it in the comments below. Don't forget to hit subscribe and also get notified when new episodes come out delivered right to you.