Light As Medicine: Treating Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) For Depression/Anxiety

The sun therapy is all about near infrared. You want to be happy in the winter. What you're missing is, is not so much ultraviolet light as it is the 70% of the sun experientially, which is near infrared.

The SAD, the seasonal affective disorder that hits hard for people.

We know that in the winter you're not getting the sun. Historically though, we've always associated that with the ultraviolet light, which is kind of a double edged sword because it's doing this good stuff in your body with the vitamin D production, but it's, it's also ionizing radiation. It rips apart your DNA. So many people claim to have brought balance and resolve their sads with my product with near infrared light with a light source that's, that's near infrared and definitely the sauna and the full body therapy of the sweating is essential and important for that. But I've realized now, beyond it being a fire light and this targeted therapy light, it's happy light.

Dude, thanks for being here.

Yeah, thank you for having me. This is my, this is my first in person. It is, it's always virtual. Yeah, I've done no way, you know, 50 podcasts or something.

That's wild. Because you're a talker. So I, I love doing well and.

I love the opportunity of the connection here right now with you. I've never had that before.

That's really cool, man.

We're gonna special day.

We're going to show all the people the sauna space we have when my guests stay. They actually have been using the sauna space, which is amazing and I get to use it like multiple times a week. So. I'm so excited for this, bro. My mind has been expanded by light therapy and photon therapy and all your studies in Spanish. I didn't know this. You studied Spanish, which is really cool. Yeah, Spanish literature and also oem, which is not for the faint of heart. So you have a very academic background, but you're deeply spiritual, which I love. The contrast of those two things.

Yeah, that's the divine balance. I'm so grateful to have developed the very logical, very intellectual because, you know, it's brain, heart, gut, mind, consciousness, will. And I've got will, man. I move. I'm a mover.

Yeah.

And I've got my brain really well developed. It was my heart that was guarded for a long time. And so now I'm in a new space where I am open and I'm making all of my decisions with my heart. And it, it's just been this huge force Multiplier. Because like, the brain takes a long time to develop, you know, the disciplines and all, all these things. And for me, now all of a sudden, the heart's open. It's like, whoa. I can just do everything like this, like everything with intentionality of coming from a place of love, delivering it in kindness, you know, being in gratitude all the time. And my, my, my brain analyzes and plans really well. And then I move with my, my gut.

I'm a very heady person. So with breath, work and all my little tools, my biohacking tools, I find that it grounds me into the earth. And a lot of people don't know this, but, you know, I was fascinated by how long this therapy has been around. And obviously we'll unpack like one little later time your story, how you found this. But it's been going on since the late 1800s with Dr. Kellogg and a bunch of other people that we've made.

1800S, mid-1800s, we say 1887. The incandescent light bulb was invented as we know it today. But it was like, it was like developing the pencil. It was a 30 year development that involved 20 or 30 of the most brilliant minds of that generation. And we'll talk about it like, oh, yeah, some of the big names that we know about in our, in our, you know, popular culture were all hanging out. They were all friends and they were all working. They were colleagues too. They were influencing each other in these new areas of, of modern knowledge that it's just not coincidence. All of it. It was all meant to be.

Yeah. And you found that you were having some pretty severe skin issues from, from what I heard.

Yeah. And that's, that's the. Mostly that's superficial, but bothered me. You know, we all want to look and feel better. I'm no different than anybody else. But for me, that was one of an array of symptoms that were related to adrenal fatigue or just being too stressed out, pushing too hard for too long.

But you were young.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. This was in 2000. So I formed the company in 2013. So this was like 2011. So this was 12 years ago or so.

Not to date you, but were you in your 20s at the time?

I was. Okay, yeah, I'm still young, but I was really young then. And, and, and yeah, I had mind racing and insomnia and I would just lay there and not go to bed because my mind would be just blazing. And I had, I was lethargic, I had lethargy, so just low energy levels, you know. I probably had low testosterone. You know, I never tested any of that stuff, but. And then I had body acne. So my acne was only on my torso, behind my kidneys, you know, adrenals. My adrenals. Yeah, my, my detox organs. Right.

Huh.

So, yeah, I, I was bothered by it a lot and I was trying to find a solution and I got recommended to take Accutane, which has now been taken off the market. That's a very powerful anti acne drug. And that was a wake up call for me. I was like, no way, man. I'm not doing that. I'm not going down that path. I've always, you know, I'm an Aries. I've always been kind of like, I'm going to do my own thing, I'm going to think about it hard and then I'm going to decide and go fast on my own thing. So I got online and did what everybody does nowadays. You know, we Dr. Google, Dr. Google. You know, unfortunately, standard, you know, the standard medical, the standard practice of care that's coming from conventional medicine is not bringing any real solutions to the problems related to chronic illness. They're great for trauma care, but otherwise they appear to be an abject failure at dealing with anything underlying. So Dr. Google said sauna kept coming up and the idea of detox and like, oh, wait a second, I'll purify my body and then it'll work better. It's like you can apply that to a car and anything else. Is it really that simple? And so then, yeah, sauna kept popping up. In the literature, sauna has been shown to extend your health span. So the years of your life in which you're healthy and you're like, whoa, that is great, I'll have some of that. It reduces all cause mortality. So your risk of dying of all things, like, okay, I'm sold. And then at the end of my research on that, I came across this guy named Dr. John Harvey Kellogg. And so you hear Kellogg and you're, you know, the, the old me was like, whoa, that's the cornflakes guy. That's the wanted to lower male libido. And, and then people, you know, you know, Dr. Kellogg.

Well, it was actually, I was researching, it was actually his brother. Did you know they had a huge lawsuit with one another?

Yeah, yeah.

So Kellogg, the people that say made the cereal, it was actually his brother and he had to like apologize and they changed the box of cereal. That's a total sidebar.

What a funny thing.

But those brothers did not like each other, man. Kellogg's.

Yeah, so. So the Kellogg we're talking about had a sanitarium in Battle Creek, Michigan. And four years after the light bulb was invented, 1887, this guy looks at these light bulbs and he's like, oh my goodness, we should make a sauna with this. There's something going on here. So he invented what's called the electric incandescent light bath. He also invented some other things, the arc light bath and, and the photo for. And some other things. And so. So long story short, he proceeded to use his electric light bath, sauna in his spa, his sanitarium, it was called. That's what they used to be called in Battle Creek, Michigan, on over 50,000 chronically ill patients, which used to be referred to as invalids. We don't really use that.

I don't like that term.

We don't like that anymore. But that's, that's the way he describes in his book. Yeah, so this is all just for historical context, of course, but so he logs over 200,000 sauna sessions with all these patients, documents all of it, and develops very rigorous, precise protocols on how to deal with each malady in a book he published in 1910 called Light Therapeutics. And that's not even the whole piece of the puzzle, but basically there was a huge movement that came out of the naturopathic doctor, sort of like lineage. This is pre American Medical association, pre fda, that chiropractics and all the cancer spas across the US Were all a part of. But there was a huge component that's, that was forgotten for like 80 years. And that's, that's light therapy. And light therapy, sauna using incandescent bulbs and color therapy, which is a sort of a portion of light therapy, all going on having incredible results. And you know, when we sit down, we buy things for ourselves. What are we doing? We're doing a cost analysis. We're thinking, okay, I want high value. Okay, what's high value? It's high benefit, low risk. And we do that and then we calculate and we buy or we don't buy. And here we have such, such high value therapeutics that even today we're still not using as a front line as a first line therapy. And yet they were so successful and they're so affordable and they're so safe that all of these things that I do at SaunaSpace, and not just me, light therapy in general, sauna in general, have in the modern context, 130 years of safe use testing with millions of People, there is no pharmaceutical drug on earth that can claim that. And then with sauna and light therapy, if we go back farther, which we will, we'll talk about helio therapy, sun therapy and sauna that goes back thousands and thousands of years.

Let's get into that now. This podcast is brought to you by not drinking alcohol. That's right, stop drinking alcohol. It's crushing you, especially if you're doing it as a way to check out of life. This podcast is brought to you by something more healthy. Instead of alcohol, at the end of your day when you need to de stress and let go and sleep well, do it without alcohol. Do it without hurting your body or using depressants, use full spectrum cannabinoids instead. Full spectrum cannabinoids by my trusted and really the only brand that I use at all when it comes to cannabinoids to fuel my endocannabinoid system or CBD or healing plant medicine. Hands down, it's only from Cured nutrition. It's been that way for years. If you head over to JoshTrend.com cured and you use the code WellnessForce, you save 20% off your entire order. Check out that link right now. Joshtrant.com cured you can just tap your player, click on your phone or wherever you're listening, use the Code wellness force for 20% off if you've been having an issue with alcohol. And if you have, there's no shame. It's like just take the inventory, right? If you, if you've been having an issue with alcohol or you know someone that's using a lot of pharmaceuticals or drugs to push them to go to sleep, why don't you get something to gently pull you to sleep? I absolutely, hands down promise you if you use a full dropper of the nighttime cannabinoid oil, it's an absolute game changer. It's been that way for me in my entire family. It's not a night that goes by where I don't use it and I notice when I don't use it. The rich terpenes, the full extract without the junk. Organically farmed. Absolutely. The only brand I use for cannabinoids and my ECS system. It's been that way for years and it'll continue to be for years ahead. Give it a shot. Joshtrend.com cured use code wellnessforce to save 20% off incandescents. The sun is incandescent, which I didn't even. I didn't make the connection like the bulbs that you've made that, that are on the screen right now, the hand blown incandescent bulbs. You had to do like four or five years of R and D on this thing to kind of mimic in a way the sun, the incandescence of the sun. Most people don't know about that.

Yeah, people, people are more familiar with LEDs. It's monochromatic light that's 1 to 10 nanometers in wavelength. So if we think about it visually, it's like a big narrow peak, very powerful peak of light if we look at a spectrum. But that's not the light of nature, that's digital light. So that's, that's, that's kind of like vitamin C powder versus the orange. What we evolved under for billions of years from a mitochondrial perspective is light in its natural form. And natural light is analog. So it's not discrete. It's a continuous broadband emission. And the light that nature produces, that does that is only incandescent light since the history of, of existence, since the beginning. So incandescence is basically when you heat a material hot up in nature, it begins to glow. Think of an iron rod glowing. That's incandescent.

Yes.

So we all emit light. Right. And we know that people have auras. There's actually this Japanese inventor who invented a camera that can take images of single photons. And so you can actually photograph a person's aura. Yeah, this is a very interesting. And so we're using modern instrumentation to explore all of these things that we knew, we've always known that are just covered up and forgotten and all that. But essentially that's incandescent light. In physics it's called black body radiation. So you can integrate Planck's law and calculate the emission of a light source based on its temperature.

What's Planck's law?

Planck is the, you know, the, the, the physicist, the German physicist, Planck. So you. So anyway, all that to say that there's a, a very interesting quantum mechanics physics underpinning that validates all of what we're talking about. And so you can, so for the sun, for example, you can look at the sun, know that it's 55 to 6,000, 5,500 to 6,000 kelvin, and you can use this physics theorem and you can calculate the emission of the sun theoretically. And then you can go out with a special instrument and measure every wavelength of the sun and its relative power level and map it and graph it against the theoretical curve and guess what? It matches perfectly. So I love how we're bringing together the ancestral wisdom and it's aligning with the modern sort of rational analysis, you know, the more Cartesian approach to things. What we're measuring now, what we're validating is in fact what, what we're, what we, what we always knew that the sun's good for us, right? Go out in the sun and feel better. There's actually, if you. We talk about COVID you know, the 1920, or no, was it the 1917 Spanish flu? It was the most disastrous flu epidemic perhaps until Covid, the surgeon General in Massachusetts, did a study after that, because a lot of people were afflicted with post influenza pneumonia and from the Spanish flu. And he published a beautiful study in 1919 and concluded that guess what the best thing is for, for influenza induced pneumonia. Light and air get out in the sun. And, and the soldiers in the army, you know, they, in World War I or World War II, like in the Pacific Theater, they were dying left and right, you know, of, of, of trauma, wounds. And even in World War I and actually dating back to the Civil War, they realized that, hey, all you have to do is put the patient outside instead of keeping them in a tent. And the survival rates were like way higher. So yeah, the sun is the great incandescent in the sky. It nourishes all life on earth. It's so obvious and yet we're told nowadays to avoid it. And certainly my product doesn't replace the sun. The sun is the real deal. But that's what biohacking is. We are in this weird artificial modern world where we need to trick our body basically into thinking it's in that ancestral environment so that we can thrive, you know, not just like struggle through life. So, so, yeah, so incandescence is what our bodies crave. That's what we need. And it's not just my light. My light's very modern. It's the campfire, it's the firelight. We have a what, like 30, 50,000 year relationship with creating our own fire humans, and maybe longer than that, we don't know. And so there's for example, the practice of Agnihotra where you create a campfire and then you cast the sacred ghee into it. And it's at sunrise or sunset and the light of the sun hits the, the fire and hits the ghee that, that burns when you cast it into the campfire and reflects healing energy basically towards you. It's an ancient Ayurvedic practice. And everybody loves a fire, you know, after dark. And so it turns out now that we Know, there's some things going on there. It's the heat feels good, and we'll talk about all the benefits of sauna and the, the, the cellular benefits and, and just heat feels good, you know, the mood and stuff like that. But yeah, also the light therapy. So even the campfire is stimulating your mitochondria and doing mitostim, doing what we, what most people more commonly refer to as red light therapy.

Is the campfire also incandescent, like the sun, or is it different?

Yes, exactly.

It's that same.

You're burning the wood, it's heating up and it's emitting light. Naturally, according to Planck's law, in that spectrum. And the spectrum. And the peak of the spectrum matches the temperature of the light source. So if we go from high to low, the sun is the hottest. So its curve is. The peak of the curve is in the highest frequency point of any light source we have. So with the sun, the peak is in the visible light range. So there's a lot of blue light and there's some ultraviolet light as well with, with the sauna space thermal light bulb that I did spend many years working on because I wanted to. I wanted to be really near infrared centric. So it's as hot as it can possibly kind of be in terms of standard incandescent light sources. But there's no ultraviolet light and there's no blue light because the glass filters out that little bit of blue. But even the sun, well, we'll get into that. The sun, some aspects of the sun. But in the continuum, this is 2500 kelvin. It's half the temperature, literally the temperature of the filament inside that's producing the light, the tungsten metal that's burning, that's, that's, that's glowing. And then if you go down from that, the campfire is, you know, maybe 1200 degrees, the candles maybe a thousand degrees, you know, Right where it's. You see the light.

Yeah.

And so all that is incandescent. The difference is, what have we evolved under the sun? So the sun is 43% in the near infrared band. In the band that stimulates a mitochondrial response. We have mitochondria in every cell of our body except red blood cells. And of course, most people nowadays understand how important the mitochondria is, how important mitochondrial health is. Everybody's talking about it. That's because the mitochondria is a free agent in the cell that has a symbiotic relationship with the cell where billions of years ago, this prokaryotic cell or the cell that had no mitochondria was like talking to the mitochondria. They had a conversation. The mitochondria is like I could use some safety and some protection. You know, I'm kind of alone out here. And the cell was like, well I need more energy, man. You know, I can't do all this on my own. So the mitochondria is not just an energy producer in the cell, it's a caretaker of the cell. It actually rejuvenates and revitalizes the cell. And we see that now in the published literature on photobiomodulation, light controlling biology. You know, just really everything. You know, it, it produces growth factors in the cell. So there's regenerative effects, inflammatory mediators. So you get immediate inflammation reduction. But you also have, and that's cellularly and, but you also have very interesting that are not associated with sauna as much or specifically are the anti aging effects. So it promotes re optimization of the transcription factors, the enzymes and the proteins that control gene expression, that control how the blueprint of the cell makes the cell. So here you have something. You're sitting in front of the campfire and it's doing all of those things in a subtle way. The difference is my light is 39% near infrared and the campfire is probably like 10% or 12%. So the campfire is gentle and mild, even though we really vibe up with it. But with my light, you know, you sit in front of it and it does feel like a campfire, but like on steroids, you know, it's like whoa, this is so stimulating and yet it's not, it's not a type of stimulation that's, that's antagonizing. Like it's very calming and, and, and relaxing. And that's because you know, at the, at the tissue level and the organ level, it's, it's promoting immune modulation. So it makes your immune system work better and it doesn't activate it or suppress it, it does both in, in a particular way. It activates the, the response phase initially and then it helps the body metabolize inflammatory, you know, like cytokines pro inflammatory responders. So it actually makes your immune system work better. It causes a monoamine neurotransmitter release so serotonin and dopamine. And then it gets, and then it promotes regeneration in the nerve cells themselves. And then it also helps them talk to each other better so you get improved neural functioning. So one of the number one things light therapy has been demonstrated to be so effective for is like tbi, interesting traumatic brain injury. Some really good studies on Iraq war veterans and also youth concussion victims. And so we now we see that more and more widespread in literature being used. And so all of that's happening in front of the campfire. But just way more with this light that I produced because of the higher temperature.

It's such a trip. When I was a kid, my grandparents, this is an old school house, like 1940s, they had a red bulb in the ceiling in their bathroom. And I always turned it on when I went over there. It's funny, I was sitting in the room and I was with the sauna space and I had like a flashback. I remember when I was like 12 years old in my grandparents bathroom, like loving how it felt. Now obviously that bulb is like way different. There's bulbs that heat livestock and chickens and horses. This is a totally different bulb. But it brought me back like it almost like time machined me, dude. It brought me way back and I remembered how that it was like a comforting feeling. So beyond just like you've talked about immune modulation and mitochondrial health also there's a ton of other things we'll explore. But on an emotional level, there's something beautiful about giving yourself 10 to 15 minutes to just breathe and be lit up by the light of the sun essentially in your own house. It's pretty beautiful.

Yeah, it's, you know, I, my, the old me would really get into the weeds of it and try to impress you with all of the research. There's 7,000 photobiomodulation studies, there's like 2,000 sauna studies. But you're right, like, let's simplify the picture. It increases your frequency and when you're in your, your higher self, you're being your better self. And damn if that don't feel good.

It feels good.

It feels really good.

Yeah.

Even, even five minutes of having the photon therapy light on your face or on your back. If you're having some back pain, will just, will just kind of calibrate you for the day. I have so many people who, so many customers who they don't know what's going on. They just, after they use the sauna, they're like, I don't know, this is. But I feel better and I'm happier. And what is this feeling? And that's what's happening. So once you give your body this thing that by the way, we're supposed to get it every day, a daily dose of the sun, preferably morning sun, you know, where the ratio of red near infrared to blue ultraviolet is the lowest. And there's actually some interesting studies in that too. There's a recent study, there's two of them in the last couple years that showed that morning, and not afternoon, but morning near infrared light exposure to the eyes reduces or it stops and slows down. Worsening of the eyesight.

Yes.

It wasn't the afternoon light, it was the morning light.

I've heard Huberman talk about this, that it sets you up for actually the next day's health. So it allows you to prime yourself because you're getting all the input through your eyes, and then your metabolism is reset for your circadian rhythm. The next day.

Yeah, the next day. Yeah. And also immediately it has a photoprotective effect against the coming ultraviolet light. For nowadays, those of you who live indoors. Right.

It's the blue light, which is pretty much everyone.

Everyone, everywhere.

So unless you're blessed to live in a camp.

I mean, yeah, I mean, I would love to live the avatar life, right. Like that's, that's ideal. That's what we're, we're programmed to do. But here we are. You know, I don't want to escape things. I want to. I want to affect change for the good here where we are. So we live in a blue light world, a synthetic blue light world. And so when I travel, for example, I always have the photon with me and I make sure not to turn any light on, even in the bathroom, until I light that up and have that just for even like a couple minutes before I get any blue light into the eyes. And that's the same concept as what we're talking about also at night, but in the morning, if you get blue light into your eyes first, it. It has an antagonistic influence on the rest of your day. It already gets you into sympathetic dominance. You already get start to get stressed out because you're not. That's not designed to happen. What does the sunrise look like? It's red and orange. That's because in the beginning it's only near infrared and red. You can actually stare at the sun on a flat horizon for like a couple minutes, depending on your color of your eyes. For a couple minutes, like without any risk of that. Of course. You know, I'm not a healthcare practitioner, Josh. You'll. Yeah, you'll have to. All y' all have to explore this for yourselves. But in the first few minutes, it. That's true. There's no blue or no ultraviolet. It's all red. So we get that in the beginning. And the rest of our day is good.

There's something that we're drawn to it and we don't know why. It's all this mitochondrial activity that really is this ancient bacteria that's telling us to do the behavior. In other words, we look at it, it feels good. But so many people start their day by flicking on these lights, you know, and by the way these lights flicker, we can't see them, but they're flickering all the time. And that flicker, combined with the blue, I'm sure messes us up. So there's some kind of healing component to the photon that allows that to be healing.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. So flickering light is known as pulsed light. It's digital light. It's light that's turning on and off many times a second. So all of these. These are LEDs, or fluorescence.

I think they're. Yeah, they're LEDs.

Yeah. So LEDs flicker 120 times a second. So it's 120, which is two times the 60 Hertz electrical supply that we have. So it's turning 100%. The wattage that's hitting your eyes is 100% on and off one hundred and twenty times a second. So that's obviously like a strobe light hitting you. And all of the modern lighting is afflicted by this. All the fluorescent lighting, all the LED lighting, which is actually mandatory in so many places nowadays. And there's definitely a fair amount of research on the nervous stressor effect of that. Like people getting migraines, having neuropsychiatric symptoms like depression and, and sadness and anxiety, just with screen. Screen fatigue, you know, working with the screen. So that was a new understanding that I actually had with the photon because I originally invented this, or I modernized. Dr. Kellogg Sauna.

Right.

And that was the first product at Sauna Space for many years. And I made. I still have one of them. It's made out of pine, the first photon I made. And I made it for fun. And then somebody's like, I think other people would be. Would like that. And I thought to myself, well, I like it. So let's see what happens. Let's go with this. And then I introduced it and it really caught on. And we'll talk more about why it's so clever, why it's so valuable. But the first thing I stumbled upon and I measured this, was that it cancels out blue light and it cancels out the measurable flicker, the measurable flickering light that comes from digital LED light sources. So I was first measuring screen monitors and, and just not studio lights, but just standard home fluorescent LED lighting. So when you hold a spectrometer in front of the light source and then you bring the photon in and it doesn't have to be like close, it can be four feet away. The non flickering near infrared dominant photons coming from the thermal light bulb enter into the space and they, and the spectrometer shows like that the blue light peak drops to zero. It's incredible. So it's canceling out the measurable blue light. So if you cancel out the measurable blue light, then you're canceling, you're minimizing the amount of blue light that's actually hitting you. So the blue light stress is dramatically reduced. And then I was like the flicker. And I measured the flicker from the screens, most of which have a very dramatic LED flicker. And the flicker would go away. And I was like, what is going on here? So my theory is that the non flickering photons from the incandescent light source of this really high temperature filament are filling in the gaps in between the pulses so that what we perceive, what we measure is analog full spectrum continuous light, like direct current light. So by the way, the LEDs flicker because it's alternating current. So alternating current is switching directions like you know, 60 times a second. That's what the hertz is. And great for distribution of power and providing us electricity in all the homes, but terrible for our health. So the light, the analog light of nature is dc. It's direct current. It's all the time. Same thing with EMFs. The, the currents of the earth is not AC, it's DC. So then I was like, wait a second, I'll just work with this next to me all day long. And then that led into an even larger conversation. So people use this to beat screen fatigue where we get stressed out. So we're canceling out the blue light and the flickering light. We're making the outdoor environment more like the indoors in our office space where so many of us work all day long in front of these screens. And the stress of working and the emails and the whole interaction, the, the forced interaction with the, with the computer in order to, to provide for ourselves and make money. It's just a reality we have to live with. So I have my photon on, on our photon desk arm, but you can equally just have it next to you pointing up.

That's typically what I do. I just have it on the, I work there at the standing. Yes, quite A bit. And I'll just slow it because it gets warm. So it's like a good, I don't know, three feet away from me. It's a pretty big standing desk. And I'll just have it slanted up so that my eyes are getting more of the light than my body. But then when I go in the space, I'm going 15, 20 minutes and I'm feeling the heat and I'm sweating right away. So there's like the. I guess you could say acute use of the sauna space, but then just the photon. You can use that thing all day long. I remember our mutual friend Luke. I went to his studio and he had the light on. I'm like, what are you trying to, like, heat up eggs in here? I didn't know. I didn't know what he was doing. But then I found out about the technology. So we can use this all.

Yeah, yeah. So. And that was the huge epiphany I had. I had this huge download I was, wait a second, I'm using at the office all day long. I can go home and I can continue to use it. So the classical uses, as you said, with the photon, one bulb is 12 to 36 inches or something to relieve. To provide relief of local tissue. So you use it on the naked flesh. That's the classical use. Single lamp therapy, it's called this dates back to those, you know, 100 years ago or more with Dinshaw and Kellogg and others. And so I've always had that. But then I realized, wow, it's actually a fire light. It's an indoor campfire that's way portable, way easy to use, very safe to use an indoor environment, very convenient. You know, how can you have a campfire indoors? And so I started using it all day long. And then I would get home and have in the. The photon in my living room and in my bedroom. And so with the classical use, you're using it for a limited duration, like 10 to 30 minutes. Only 10 minutes on the head or the throat. And then you actually don't do it for like an hour. So you want to stimulate and let the body respond and heal. But if you tilt it up like this so it's not directly pointing at you, or it can just lay on its back and be straight campfire mode. You can have it on an unlimited amount of time around you all the time. And. And so then I realized, wow, it's vibing up everything. It's making everybody happier. You can use it in a healing room. You can use it in your business area, you can at home with the family. It's a blue light, free source of light after dark. So turn off your overhead lights and use this. It's enough light to hang out with, to have dinner with and to do anything with. And because we live indoors, we need to have this light next to us just to just, you know, just to be. Well, nowadays in this modern crazy, we're.

Trying to live analog in a digital focused world. That's really what this is about. We're trying to. People think that biohacking is like this crazy thing. I actually believe it's totally necessary. If you came into the studio, y', all, you would see we have the Leela Quantum, we have the Soma Vedic. I have a new device I'm testing out. I have Brian saunaspace. Like all these things help me to really combat the normal ness, which is really not normal at all of our digital world. And I'm curious, like, do you stack other things with the sauna space with the photon light therapy? Like we did some of, some of the mitozen before we recorded. Like what other ways can we prep the body so that it gets all these beautiful benefits of the photon therapy?

Yeah, there's. I mean what you said was, was beautiful. So think analog. And by the way, yes, I agree with you, biohacking is a great term. We're not cheating.

It's not a shortcut.

It's not a shortcut at all. We're just tricking our bodies to be happy to get. We're using these modern devices to create an environment that our bodies are programmed to get. So it's not even tricky. It's not even really the right word. We're giving the body what it needs and we're hacking this modern craziness that we have because we want the benefits of modernity. I want the electricity, I want the connection that comes, you know, with, with all the technology. But I want to have my cake and eat it too. So that's what biohacking is all about. But yeah, I'm definitely not a single faceted guy. Like I love my product the best. It's saved me, it saved so many people. But it works in my life in concert with so many things that I do. Diet wise, I'm type O. So O positive. I think I'm positive. And so I've always been very inclined eating meat and that's kind of the metabolic blood type diet for my blood type. And I actually recently went was just as a trial kind of cleansing thing I tried veganism for about six weeks and I really, it was really fun. It was very cleansing. And I realized I was eating maybe a little bit too much meat, like and not enough anything else. But I did realize at the end of it, as I began to reprogram my, my intuitional approach to food, that, that, that was calling to me. Meat. And so I've always, I've always eaten paleo and, and now I'm just more discerning. Like some days we'll, we'll. And I'll have you know, a shake or a juice and that's okay. You know, it's, I'm not dogmatic about it anymore but, but healthy living includes definitely what you're putting into your body. And I think much more important than telling you to eat meat or to eat vegetarian is to eat with intuition. What does your body need? You know, some people, um, some people don't have the enzyme. Like it's like, I think Jordan Peterson's daughters that way, like 1 in 33 people don't have the enzyme to die to metabolize lectin. So those people are definitely more carnivore inclined for sure. If you look at the Indian culture, they've been, they, you know, have a predominant vegetarian culture except like the, the wealthy Brahmins and stuff for thousands of years. They're inclined to that based on the ethnicity. You know, people in the northern climes, more European blood, we tend more towards mediating and so. Interesting though, why is that? Well, where do they live? You know, in the northern climes? Lighter skin, lighter eyes, less sunlight. In India, in Central America, you know, along the equator you get so much sun. So it's like, oh, what is the sun doing? The sun is fueling you. Let's not forget that we talked about some of this minutia. The sun actually increases your ATP production in the cells. The mitochondrial stimulation, that's one of the three direct effects. So it's literally giving your cells energy without adding any sugar in. So you actually satisfy your caloric requirement in part by getting an ample dose of sunlight, especially in the morning, to the extent of, you know, you may not eat so heavily in the summer when you're getting a lot of sun. But as we go into hibernation in the winter, we're looking more towards those really like long lasting foods in our body that are really nutritive. Like meat. Yeah, just like the bears.

It's interesting you mentioned the winter because the sad, the seasonal affective disorder that hits hard for people and it's not just vitamin D lacking, it's all the light spectrum that they're not getting as well. There's machines out there that can so much give you vitamin D and you can take supplements for it. But like true, like actually treating sad and really making an impact on that. If it's 1212 degrees below, I'm sure it gets pretty freaking cold in Missouri. Right. Like you can't just step outside and get well.

Yeah. And forget Missouri. I grew up in Montana.

Okay. So even, even colder. I think they just had like minus 45 this year.

Yeah. Which is, which is.

Yeah.

Where I grew up was Great Falls, Montana.

Okay.

It was actually minus 55. That one.

That's not that inspiring to go outside.

Yeah. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah.

So how do we use this? How do we use this?

So this is, I'm glad you brought it up because there's, there's definitely an interesting debate going on right now in, in the, in the medical world and in the, in the wellness world. Like how do we treat SADs?

Yeah.

The, the conventional medical prescription is a vitamin D lamp like of 10,000 lux. So very high powered fluorescent bulb that is flickering and is a lot of blue and ultraviolet. Mostly blue. And it does. Absolutely. The ultraviolet light is what promotes vitamin D production in the body. And yes, we need that. Like with the COVID stuff, we knew that if you take some vitamin D, that can be a very, very essential supplement in helping with things. And we know that in the winter you're not getting the sun. Historically though, we've always associated that with, with the ultraviolet light, which is kind of a double edged sword because it's doing this good stuff in your body with the vitamin D production. But it's also ionizing radiation. It rips apart your DNA and has, you know, mutagenic effects which can lead to be carcinogenic effects. And then blue light on the spectrum is right next to ultraviolet. So there's this arbitrary line. Not arbitrary, but there's this line that, where we say ultraviolet is ionizing blue light and anything lower visible light is non ionizing. So it doesn't rip apart our DNA by going. Being so powerful that it goes right into the nucleus. It's really well protected. But it does result in the same thing, which is really interesting. So blue light causes free radical formation in the cells. So nature and the intelligence of nature picked up on this millions of years ago and that was what the mitochondria was all about. So your body gets, it's like 2, 2 or 3%. I don't know what the numbers are. It's like 2 or 3% ultraviolet. It's like 7, 8% blue or something like that. Boom, it's 43 near infrared. So when you're getting these damaging wavelengths from the sun in the morning, you're getting this huge mega dose of mitochondrial stimulation that's pro, that's basically preparing defenses and, and antioxidant actors like melatonin, which we haven't talked about, that are right there ready to cancel out all those oxidating effects and repair the DNA damage that's happening from the ultraviolet light. So you get the benefit from ultraviolet and blue and you don't have the long term effects of the consequences of too much ultraviolet light blue exposure, because you're getting so much more near infrared at the same time. And it's the near infrared, by the way. It's not the red that goes in deep. So red and near infrared do the same thing to the mitochondria. But most of the light therapy devices we see are red. And we see red light therapy is the more commonly used nomenclature. But red light doesn't penetrate bone tissue. It doesn't go more than a couple inches into the body. It's the near infrared that can go four or five inches deep. So if you're wanting to do light therapy on your brain to nourish your brain, don't bother doing red. It's not even going through your skull. Only near infrared will. So if we look at the sun and we say 43% near infrared, spectrally that's not the whole picture. If you look at the sun from a photons per second experienced how much per second, all of the cells, even the deepest ones in your body are experiencing, it's 70% near infrared. So if you look at it from an experiential perspective, the sun therapy is all about near infrared. I mean all about near infrared all the time. So back to the debate about SADs, this flickering fluorescent bulb, right? And we've had this going on for many years. And you can look on my website at the customer reviews. So many people claim to have brought balance and resolve their SADs with my product, with near infrared light, with a light source that's near infrared and definitely the sauna and the full body therapy of the sweating is essential and important for that. But I've realized now, beyond it being a firelight and this targeted therapy light, it's a happy light. You want to be happy in the winter. What you're missing is not so much ultraviolet light as it is the 70% of the sun experientially, which is near infrared, not even really red.

It's near infrared, and that's the heat sensation. So is heat part of the equation? We look at that.

It is, but the, the, the, the story is a little more complicated than that. So when we say near infrared, that's an, that's sort of an arbitrary range that's been defined. So, so let's break it down. So ultraviolet light is sub 400 nanometers. And then we have visible light that's 400 to 700 nanometers, starting with blue, Roy G, BIV, actually starting with violet, going to red. So red is the longest wavelength visible light. That's 600 to 700 nanometers. So it's 600 nanometers. Mitochondrial stimulation effects occur. And they occur because the cytochrome C, so the, the cytochrome is cell, is cell of light. You know, light, light of life that begins to absorb. It has absorption bands for wavelengths of light that start at 600 nanometers. So at 600 nanometers we get mitostim effects and then we get to 700 nanometers. And now red light is basically ended. And by the way, this is analog, so there's a little play there on these brackets. But so now we're into the range that's commonly known as infrared. And then we have. And so in the infrared range, we have A, B and C infrared, near, mid and far infrared, near, because it's next to red. So this is just a modern way of breaking things down. The light of nature doesn't care. It's all of these wavelengths simultaneously. But back to your question. It's like, well, what we're talking about infrared. Most people think, oh yeah, I have an infrared sauna. That's a heat therapy. It's not a light therapy. And then folks look at red light therapy and light therapy in general, and they say, oh, that's a light therapy. It's not a heat therapy. I shouldn't feel any heating. And that's a common misconception even today with our product, like the name of the company, SaunaSpace. And people understand the light therapy in the near infrared. And, but they ask us, so am I going to heat up in there? Yeah, and you have it and you know, you sweat like amazingly really quickly right away. And so what's going on? So as we continue from 700 to 1000 nm, the mitochondrial stimulation range is 600 to 1000 nm. So it's all of red light. And it's about half of the near infrared band. And there's various like areas where some of the wavelengths are more stimulating than others. But all of those wavelengths stimulate, are absorbed by the, the cytochrome C in the mitochondrial, on the mitochondrial membrane to some extent. So we're still in near infrared and now we're at a thousand. And actually we started if we overlap a little bit because it's all analog, the first overtone of water. So water begins to absorb light and water's a chromophore. A chromophore is a, is a, is a light absorber. That's what that means. So we're all water in our bodies, right? Like 70 water by weight, 99 by water. Water volumetrically. We could talk all day long about structured water and the role water plays in communication. It's essential. It's. It's not just a medium in which everything is happening in our bodies. It is its own actor.

It's the conductor as well.

It's the conductor, yeah, it's the connector, you know, it's the networker. And so water absorbs light naturally according to a spectrum called the water absorption spectrum. So if we look at the optical window of the human body, got two sides. So on my left I've got ultraviolet light, really high frequency stuff. And over here I've got infrared. In between my hands is the optical window of the human body. So melanin in the skin and hemoglobin, two big components in the body, absorb the ultraviolet wavelengths and they prevent them from going in deep and damaging organs to a great degree. That curve drops. And then right when that drops, you get into the mitostim band. That's red light and near infrared. So you're getting all of this stimulation and it's no coincidence. In the wavelength range that has the deepest penetration, we're talking about tissue penetration. That penetration maxes out at 930 nanometers. So it's the near infrared that goes in deep. Red's not going in deep. It's still getting kind of absorbed by hemoglobin and melanin. But near infrared, we're going in super deep and we're stimulating the mitochondria from 700 to 1,000 nanometers. But then here, now we have water begin to absorb light. And that's also protecting us in a different way. It's protecting us and it also has a function of heating us, using light to heat the body, which people understand with infrared. So water's absorption spectrum starts at 980 nanometers. And then it begins to climb really dramatically by about 1600, 1500 nanometers, it's absorbing most of the light. So most of the wavelengths greater than 1500 nanometers are not penetrating deep. And so guess what? Near infrared is 700 to 1500. So to really, like, break down your question, near infrared light does the same thing. If we're talking about the whole band, if we be specific, if we're specific, we're saying near infrared and red light from 600 to 1,000 nanometers is light therapy. It's stimulating the mitochondria. It's doing all that stuff. It's not heating you at all, but all of the wavelengths in the near infrared band, from 980nm to 1500nm, the lower end of near infrared is being absorbed by water and is heating you. So you're getting light therapy and heat therapy at the same time. You're getting the best of light therapy because you're getting the deepest penetration. So the, the gut and the liver and the kidney and the brain, particularly the neural tree, only the near infrared light is accessing that. The only wavelength of light that's been shown to penetrate bone tissue is near infrared. So your skull is the thickest bone tissue in your body. Obviously, you need near infrared for that. So it's really. I'm so grateful to have figured this out. And not even the first one. You know, all these smart guys, like 120 years ago figured it out. But it's a more effective light therapy because we're near infrared centric. And then it becomes also a better heat therapy because of what I'm going to explain to you now. So you're like, okay, infrared lights absorbed by water. That's how light heats the body. But wait, there's a water absorption spectrum. Water is only absorbing light partially at the beginning of the spectrum at 980 nanometers. And in near infrared, it rises like this. That's why still, in that heating portion of near infrared, you have really deep penetration. But then you get partial absorption of light by the water molecules. It's kind of a weird quantum mechanics concept. But basically, all of these near infrared photons from the, the sauna space bulb are hitting you. Some of them are going in 5 inches and hitting a mitochondria in your liver. Some of them are going in 5 inches and hitting a water, and through a quantum mechanical probability are being absorbed. And so that's what's called, that's why we Call it partial absorption. But in, in, in statistically speaking, in general, the wavelengths are going in deep and they're stimulating both the mitochondria and they're heating up the water molecules deepest within your body. So when you use the sauna space infrared, the near infrared style from an incandescent light source, you feel like you're getting warm from the inside, because it's a radiant heat thermodynamically that is immediately heating you inside. When we compare that to far infrared saunas, which are operating way over here in the lower infrared spectrum, or the long wavelength, low energy portion of infrared, we're in water absorption's most powerful absorption. So the, the far infrared photons are only penetrating the skin and the dermis a little bit. And the far infrared sauna is, is a glorified finished sauna. It's a glorified traditional sauna, which is not bad at all. It's all good, but it's the least efficient way to heat human tissue. It's not a radiant heat at all. Even though we're saying it's light. It's essentially the far infrared heater is heating the air radiantly and then the, and then the water molecules and the air itself are con. Are circulating through convection and getting the air really hot. And then the hot air is heating you conductively from the outside in. So if you sit in a. I'm sure you've tried a traditional sauna before.

Yeah, I mean, I have one at.

The house and I think you used to have a far infrared saunas.

I have one now. I mean, I really can't compare the two because the one that I have at the house takes me like an hour to warm up. So I only use that sometimes.

So you're. Yeah, so you're warming it up, Josh. You're warming it up because you need the air to be hot.

I'm warming the air.

So you're warming the air and then you sit inside and it takes you a long time to sweat. So a far infrared sauna session, like a, a finished sauna, is an hour long session. You know, some people, some people actually do longer. Whereas with, with my product, with incandescent light, you go in, you turn the lights on, and you're sweating like within the first 10 minutes, and you're done in like 25 minutes.

Yeah. This is what I think most people get wrong is they try to compare the two, and you really can't like comparing what you're doing with the photon therapy. It's much, much different. Conversation Here, here's my take on it. When I go and sit next to the actual red light, I can feel the heat on my skin. And from what you just described in your scientific unpacking of the onion, there's many things that are going on my body that I have no ability to understand in that moment until you told me. Now I'm sitting there, I'm getting the heat on my skin, and I'm getting all the benefits of the infrared, which is way different than when I go sit in a traditional sauna.

So there are two.

I want to be really clear with everybody. They're very separate. There's some health complimentation that happens. But with yours, what do people mostly get wrong when they try to compare this photon light therapy to traditional sauna? What are. What tends to come up the most in conversations at trade shows?

Well, definitely that first thing, they're like, people come up and they say, oh, yeah, this is red light therapy. And I'm like, well, it's 8% red light therapy, but mostly it's near infrared. So we talk about what we just talked about, about how, yeah, if you want to stimulate all of the body and not just make your skin look better, you know, look, you know, being healthy from without means being healthy from within. The organs are in the torso. This is the site of all the body's toxins and all the side. The body's like degeneration and, you know, disease is all developed like here. So if we want to deal with those things there, near infrared is obviously more effective. So that's a big misconception. And then you just touched on the other. It's the heating. Everybody associates sauna, modern sauna and infrared sauna with far infrared. So they think they have to be in there a long time, but they're getting infrared therapy and they're not, they're getting sauna therapy. So let's clarify that for some, for. For everybody, because that's also a huge misconception. It's like you have all these saunas and, and people think, oh, the infrared saunas are. The far infrared saunas, you know, are doing something different than, than the traditional saunas, which are doing something different from hyperthermia, hyperthermic therapy, which is doing something different than the sauna suits and the heated blanket beds. No, they're all doing the same thing cellularly. We'll talk about that. Heat shock proteins and stuff. But if we look at the sauna research, and you can check out Dr. Rhonda Patrick's paper from last year, her summarizing paper. It was so wonderful. If you look at all the large cohort studies on the use of sauna to treat disease, the outcomes are measured by sweating out 1 to 2 pounds of water and raising core temperature by 3 degrees Fahrenheit. So it's fantastic that you see in these crazy, these funny Eastern Asian studies where they have people wearing sauna suits. It's not a sauna, there's no heat source. It's basically a big foil suit that you wear and it, and it causes your body to go into a hyperthermic state. We're raising core temperature by a few degrees and we're sweating out some water and it's pass. You know, ideally it's passive because of the nervous system activities, but even during a workout or whatever, you're seeing the benefits that are associated with sauna. With the, the most popular study was the Lao Cannon study. It was 2,000 males. It was published in 2015 that we first saw really well validated like reduction in all cause mortality. They were measuring heart disease and, and, and heart attack and stuff like that. But it was a 20 year study on like 2000 men. It was, there's nothing more powerful that to demonstrate like this stuff works. What's interesting, I have to mention what's interesting about that study though is they did a follow up in 2021, continue to follow these guys for another five years and instead measured dementia outcomes. And guess what they found? So in the first study they found if you use sauna one day a week, your risk of dying, of all things, goes down like 30 to 40%, maybe even more. But interestingly, if you use sauna three times a week, your risk goes down another 30 or 40%. You know, those are not the exact numbers, but essentially the more you do sauna the better you can overdo it certainly. So then the Rhonda Patrick article, we see that doing this like three times a week, raising core temperature three degrees and sweating out one to two pounds of water, both of which you can measure by the way with a digital scale before and after your sauna session, the weight loss is equivalent to what you sweat out one pound of water and then just use a thermometer and you can measure your core temperature. And I love how in, I love how simple that is. It doesn't matter what the technology is. It could be the sun, it could be a hot tub, it could be a Celtic, you know, sweat cave. It could be any of these things. The outcome that we need to measure is really simple and we're getting that benefit in all of these types of hyperthermia, raised temperature therapy. But then me, I'm, you know, I, I'm a mover. I like to be efficient. I like to have fun too. I like to feel good, but I want to get it done. And so when we use incandescent light, it's so fast, we heat the body up so much faster. And with the stacked component of the near infrared centric light therapy, we get all these other benefits that are associated with photobiomodulation that also are not just a bunch of scientific blah, blah. You immediately step into a sauna space, sauna, you feel better.

This is why people do the cold therapy as well. There's the cold shock proteins, there's the heat shock proteins. It's all giving people some type of hormesis. Like it's eliciting some result that is mimicking probably what we would have occasionally encountered in nature. Like it's not too often that people that live in high rises and NYC get cold or get that hot. They're probably not experiencing that. But if we can use the tools, like I have the plunge, I have the sauna space, and if I stack the two of them together, I'm getting a lot of diffusion. I'm almost like pumping my organs, right? I'm getting the extreme cold, I'm getting the extreme heat. So there's a lot going on there. So it's detoxification, it's healing light therapy. And also you're getting this adaptive response to what we would have gotten in nature from the hormesis. Those are the three big ones that I'm expecting.

Well, I would expand a little bit more on sauna real quick. So you said detox and that's what everybody's like. Oh, that's the reason my all cause mortality is I'm purifying my body. So that's really only half of the story. So the heat shock proteins that are produced do two primary things. One is they make cell detox work better. But what they're doing that's more fundamental is they refold and redistribute misfolded proteins. So your proteins in your body. This is really trippy.

Let's go.

So the proteins in your body, they're like the line workers. They're doing all the work, they're the employees, they're taking care of everything all the time. That's what your DNA does is it codes proteins that sophisticated ones or enzymes, but even the basic cell receptor proteins, it's the, it's all you know, it's the infrastructure of the entire body. So it's, it's, it's predicted now that probably 20, 20 to 30% of the proteins that your, your ribosomes make that are programmed by your DNA are misfolded right out of the gates. And if you've, you've seen a 3D like drawing of a protein, it's like this thing that looks like, with all these ribbons and strings on it, it has hundreds and more folds in it. It's super complicated. And these things are supp each other by fitting like lock and key in with each other. So when they don't fit right, they don't communicate well. So for example, the insulin receptor protein, this will be one that'll be relevant to everybody is on the outside of the cell. So if it's misfolded, the insulin comes in and it doesn't talk well to it. So you get what's called insulin resistance. So bring in the heat shock protein. The heat shock proteins, by the way, are produced by the nucleus upon a, a continued heat stress. They're not there at resting body temperature. So when we heat up the body with sauna heat shock proteins, these intelligent or these, these repair workers get produced. Like these emergency guys, they come out, they help with the cell detox, helping in various ways make cell detox more efficient. But at the same time they're grabbing every protein they can and whipping them around and refolding them and correcting them and, and re optimizing protein function. And then you also have, what's it called, protein homeostasis. So you got proteins to do this here, but if it's on the wrong side of the cell, it's not doing anything where it's supposed to. So they'll grab that protein and they'll bring it to where it's supposed to be and they'll also correct and align and re optimize protein concentration all around. So back to the insulin thing. The heat shock protein goes out of the cell, grabs the insulin receptor protein, fixes it, refolds it, and then the insulin comes in and connects better and so the communication is better. So what do you get with sauna? You get improved insulin signaling. These are some recent studies actually. And so we're obviously not making medical claims here, but the cellular mechanism is obviously there. So the heat shock proteins make all the proteins in the cell inside and out work better. So sauna has a major re optimizing rejuvenative effect that's not just purifying, it's it's re optimizing at the same time. And the heat shock proteins do all of this. They do so many other things too. They, they slow down cell death. They, if you can imagine, like fixing the workers, the proteins and everything, pick the organ system or the function and that's going to be better and get better and the disease that's associated with its malfunction will ameliorate.

I hope you're loving this conversation so much because at the core of light therapy, what we really want is to feel good, to feel better. And we can use light therapy to give our body what it needs from the outside, but also for energy. If we want energy, we get to choose to give our body what it needs from the inside. But not from caffeine all the time or from heavy stimulants, which you and I know leaves us burnt out. Well, there's something else you can do that's different than coffee or stimulants for energy. It's called ketones. A lot of people think ketones are weight loss tools, which is true in some way. But the main benefits of ketones I love is energy. I'm always needing more energy as a father, as a partner, as a businessman, I always need more of it. And so ketones fuel my energy, my cognition and my metabolic enhancement. What do I mean by this? Well, there is a specific scientific process called ketosis that your body switches over to that burns fat for fuel. But it happens only when your body perceives that you are in starvation mode. You have to be starving to get the benefits. What if I told you that you could literally trick your body in the most loving way, in a healthy way to feel like it's fasting but you still get to eat food, would you believe me? Would you do it? Well, the science is in and exogenous ketones mimic endogenous ketones and that fasting still state for fat burning and energy enhancement. Every afternoon about 1, 2, 3 o' clock ish, I've been doing a shot of Ketone IQ from my friends over at HVMN, otherwise known as health via modern nutrition. Listen, this is not just some run of the mill supplement company. This is a life changing addition to your day. You can do this anywhere, anytime, these little tiny portable shot bottles. Or you can save big and get the large bulk Bottle over@joshtrent.com HVMN Use the code Josh to save 20% off. When you go to that link and check out the science, you're going to be blown away. But you're going to be even more blown away by the way that you feel. This is the biggest report card, isn't it? How do you feel after you take something, pick up a case or a bottle on recurring order of these ketones that give you energy without caffeine, without the crash? You're going to absolutely love this, support this podcast, support your energy and save a bunch of money while you do it. Joshtrend.com HVMN use the code Josh to save 20% off. Yeah, you said that it's been contemporary, but also there's some ancient stuff. Well, not ancient, like 125 years ago where I saw a post in the Atlantic that will drop in the show notes, and it was about Kellogg's claim that this red light therapy, this photon therapy, could actually heal people with diabetes. Now, I Wonder, like, type 1 diabetes is something where, like, you know, that's epigenetically expressed. But type 2 diabetes is a behavioral thing. So if somebody's, you know, carrying extra weight, they have 40 extra pounds, 60 extra pounds, and they're doing a dietary change, could this photon therapy, could this therapy actually accelerate the repair that's going on that's needed for type 2?

So if we talk about diabetes, we're talking about a systemic issue.

So the pancreas is not able to really produce the insulin that it needs to.

But why, so if it, why is it not producing enough? It's not producing enough because the insulin, it's pumping out insulin.

Yes.

And it's not, it's not signaling well, it's not connecting with that receptor cell. Well, so the, as the, the, the insulin receptors malform, the pancreas begins to produce more insulin and more insulin. More insulin. So you get insulin resistance and then you have all the wide array of symptoms that are associated with diabetes that occur when that system's broken down. Because insulin is this major hormone, right. And the hormones are the, the master molecules of the body. So talking about a, a, like serious, like primary crucial system in your body that is breaking down. So what I would say to that is any full body heat therapy will be absolutely helpful. You know, I just think mine's the best.

Not to toot your own horn, but. Beep, beep. It's been experience that you've had this through yourself and almost 10 years through me.

And you can go on my website, there's definitely some pretty amazing healing stories in that regard. But overall, I think it's interesting that people want to know, is this going to be helpful for me in My particular issue, and we don't have enough time to talk about all the things. So I think it's really important to emphasize that this is one example of improving hormone function with sauna therapy and with light therapy, both of which just come in a better flavor with what I do. You also see improvements in people who have Hashimoto's and thyroid issues with their thyroids, you know, either hyper or hypo and various other hormonal systems of the body. And so, yes, these things seem to.

Be.

Increasingly demonstrated in the literature with human studies, but there's also so many, like animal studies. And then there's all this ancient wisdom of like, oh yeah guys, this been working for a long time, like, try it out. So yes, especially type 2 diabetes, but I would even say type, type 1 diabetes. Not that particularly, but you said the word epigenetics. So epigenetics is the 3D architecture of the DNA. It's also this really complicated thing that, which is available to be trans. The part of the blueprint that's available to be read is highly dependent on the, the, the, the 3D arrangement of the folding of these really complicated things, you know, our DNA structure. So when we do light therapy and we do photobiomodulation, just as when we do some other healing things too, doing like applied kinesiology, doing other forms of neuropsychiatric therapy, there's so many different amazing ways to do that. We actually see epigenetic changes where the 3D architecture changes. And so what happens is proteins that were not available to be made are now available to be read and made. And so we see that, you know, a very, not, you know, definitely with what I do, but like, even with sound therapy or just talking to someone and having a moment and having a release of stress or tension or having a resolution in some kind of personal relationship causes an immediate physiological response like vasodilation and all that, that's epigenetic change. Your cells are literally changing. You're literally not, not just anti aging them, you're correcting the epigen, you're correcting your genes. And so things that we may have inherited from our ancestors and are manifested and sort of present in the epigenetic structure are also things that we can address. We're not just stuck with these things. We can reprogram. And there's definitely a spectrum there of what you can do, to what extent, but I'm a big believer in knowing, not believing, but like really knowing that you can correct almost anything if you, if you put Your mind to it. You know, make the decision that's right for you from the heart, and then go ahead and will that into existence with. With disciplined practice. My product is all about making that really easy and convenient, you know, in your apartment, wherever you're at, so you don't have to, like, have a huge sauna.

Yeah.

Or, you know, you can't have access to sunlight all day long. Or you have an acute thing, something on your foot, something that's going on. You really need to hit it hard for a while. You need to have this in your home to do. So if you have to go to a clinic or something to do that.

Yeah.

It's just not. Yeah. There's a fact.

There's a practicality that we have to address as human beings because we carry lots of responsibility. Like, I'm a. I'm a dad about to be another dad in April. So, like, two kids, and the responsibility that I'm holding, I mean, I love what I do. I love this, but there's also, like, the weight of that responsibility. And I feel like if there's a lot of weight and we don't have a way to temporarily assuage and heal and nourish our nervous systems, it's going to be really hard to carry more weight. So if people are living in high rises or if people are stressed out, in other words, just the average human condition, there has to be a way to make this practical. This is where I think this steps in. If it's practical, if it's something you can do in like 10 minutes, 20 minutes, that you can actually see the needle move, you can start to feel and see something different. Because if I have to go to a clinic every time, or if I have to make an appointment at a place, that's more time out of my day. So there is something really cool about this, the practical aspect of this therapy.

Yeah. When you said wait, it reminds me of that Milan Kundera novel, the Unbearable Lightness of Being. Oh, I haven't read it. Well, you'll have to read it sometime. That's really kind of a tangent. But we associate meaning with weight and significance with weight. And things that are important and have value have weight. But there's such power and lightness and the lack of weight. And so, yeah, if you go to someone, you're like, this is going to be really good for you. This is another thing you had to have to add into your regimen. Even that word is like, I know. Add it to your toolkit. Right? Yeah.

It's another thing that you have to tick a box on. It's like, oh my God.

You know, you either get the eye roll or the eyes glass over or you get a stress response and they're like, I have to do more for my health and it's going to take up more time. So we don't want that. I, I'm the same as you. I didn't never wanted that. I want something that is really practical and when I'm doing it, it feels good. Like I don't like to do things for my health, you know, between air quotes. I like to do things that are fun. I want to have fun all the time. Always do things that have like a strong love component to it. And, and really that's what this is when you, when you talk about all the wide array of things that I do, you know, and I could tell you some, definitely, some more things I do, definitely cold therapy, definitely sleeping on time, total. You know, I don't, you know, I kind of avoid caffeine and alcohol for the most part now. But I always wanted one thing that would do like 20 things at once. Like that's real biohacking. That's. Yes, that's the real effective thing. So with this, I can spend 20 minutes before work, before I do anything and have all these different things going on and have an opportunity to engage in either some breath work or a meditative practice and have deprivation therapy, especially if you have the Faraday product because you're protected from the modern EMF and do the detox and do the refolding of the proteins and do the light therapy and the anti aging and all this stuff and do it all so fast. That for me is like a dream come true. And then when I use it in the morning, my whole day is calibrated. I feel better, I have more energy, I'm more in a flow state. Improved cognitive functioning is a big documented benefit of both sauna and of light therapy. So better decision making, less indecisiveness, better recall, that has effects on athletic performance. And you mentioned like tempering the body, you improve your resistance to heat stress when you do sauna, right? Obviously, because you're doing all the time. So you see that with athletes that work under like really hot environments. But also it programs your body to deal with what our ancestors dealt with. Severe changes, environmental temperature that were like basically every day it got cold at night, really cold at night. And the body's designed to get cold and it's designed to get hot. And when we condition it to do so. Wow. Here's another benefit in all of this. We shift our bodies into a homeostatic point that's like at the center of all things, that's energetically. Well, let me put it this way. Like, if there's the physical, there's the astral, and there's the ethereal, these are all just differences in frequency. They're all real in the physical, you know, everything vibrates, but a lot slower. And then the astral and the ethereal, it's an entirely energetic layer or component to the universe, but it's super real. It's just such a high frequency, it doesn't really have a physical state. So what we want is homeostatic alignment at the center of all of that so that our physical, astral and ethereal selves are all align. And when we do that, we feel better, we work better, we act more out of. Out of love, but we also become more resilient. We respond better. And then when we get stressed and we get out into the world and things are, you know, in our face all the time, we're in the flow state, we're good. And of course, all of these basic physical symptoms that so many people deal with nowadays, of course those get better. But more importantly, you know, our, Our hearts expand and our brains work better. And then we're better in our family life and our personal life, we're better in our professional life. We become more forces of good. You know, the frequency just goes up.

Yeah. If we're responsible for our own homeostasis. And I like, I like the bands you talked about with the three, but. But I feel like if we don't start with the physical, nothing else can really happen.

Oh, yeah. I mean, the physical at the bottom.

If my physical health. That's why I teach the Pentagon. Mental, physical, emotional, spiritual and financial. But at the bot physical, because I live in this body, it's my meat suit, it's mostly water. So everything that this thing eats or is around, it dictates the other four. So if I'm really loving myself and, you know, sometimes I get out of it and I go back into the care to find the homeostasis, man, it's always this moving target. But if we can stack the environment and the odds of the environment in our favor with the right kind of tools, you know, one of them being the sauna space, we're just going to be going in the right direction. And by right, I mean most loving for ourselves, most caring about me so that I can care about my partner. My children, my business, and everything else it is.

And it's the most accessible too. It's a good point to make. Like you, you know, don't even bother with the astral material if you're not.

Taking care of the physical foundation, you.

Know, the foundation of the home.

It doesn't matter, man. So, look, we covered a lot of science. You rocked my world. Like, I knew that we were going to get into the science, but, like, you know, everything you learned in organic chemistry and when you were sitting there in Bozeman, did you ever think, I'm going to create something with this one day? Because a lot of what I've heard from people about organic chemistry is. It's real thick. There's a lot of information there.

Yeah, I actually did a novel protein synthesis of a fluorescent protein dye. And I got really deep into it and I wrote a master's level thesis on that, even though it was just an undergrad. But no, I was working in the lab and I had one day, like, some solvent, these little clips that were holding the solvent, like glass apparatus. I was working with it busted and all the solvent blows into my face. And so I was the first guy to have to use the shower in the lab in like a year. And it was no big deal. Like, I. I was. I was quite fine. But I'm sitting there with the purple gloves and the solvent all over me, and I'm looking around. I've got these chemicals that you have to like, go like this, you know, and under the hood, you know, because they're so dangerous to use. And I'm looking out the window and there's people playing Frisbee golf out there. And I'm stuck in. And I'm in Montana, where it's so beautiful. And I had a shocking epiphany. I was like, I'm not doing this at all. I have no interest in being in this type of vocation, even though I love the. The content for its. Than the knowledge. So I had no idea where it was going to be applied later. Like, that was the divine plan for sure. I. It's a really toxic environment to work.

I can imagine. I mean, essentially, that's kind of what happened, I think, in the Wuhan coronavirus is somebody was like, screw this. And they opened up something and it leaked out. Who knows? Who freaking knows? But being in that environment is way different than being in nature. And also being a spiritual man, being able to connect with all aspects of self, having some kind of a connection to your observer, being in life with an open heart. All these things require some type of maintenance. So with that maintenance, what continues to fascinate you, like with your work with this tech, with the light therapy, with your own life, like, what fascinates you the most about wellness? Or in other words, about the well being of yourself?

Yeah, it's an interesting question. I was always so mental and trying to make decisions that I know now should always be made by the heart. Pretty much all the decisions and what to do, what to eat, what to say, who to be with, how to create connection, how to say no to things. And I was using my mind to do all that. I was ignoring my, the instincts of my heart, you know, the, the deep feelings like, oh, this is what you need to do. And then immediately my mind would step in really logically and be like, no X, Y and Z to do, you know, deduction and, and manipulate really my heart and dominate it. And so I was loving people with my mind, which I'm a person who has a lot of love, I've always been that way. But it leads to certain outcomes where there's the danger of becoming a tyrant. You know, you're right. You know, the mind knows it's right so much that you get into like a savior complex where I'm going to help you because I know what's right for you. And so my realization that I've had sort of recently is. I think it affects a lot of people too. It's the savior complex thing. And look, I mean, I'm making this light theory and this sauna stuff. Of course I had the potential for having a savior complex, but I realized that you can't help anyone. You can only help them help themselves. And that's a big part of my current interest, which is developing my heart as a decider. The mind is a processor of external information. It's really powerful. And as we're mentioning these three, and you mentioned two other ones too, for me, like just the triangle, it's in the three components. It really simplifies things. The mind is a powerful tool. We need to maintenance it, we need to maintain it and invigorate it. And the gut, you know, physically the gut, but also from the recollected knowledge perspective, from the intuition, we need to use our gut and take care of it and use it for what it's intended. And then most importantly for me is use the heart. The heart is the consciousness. If you make decisions with just your heart and you enact them with your gut, you might become a sociopath because you're doing things with a lot of emotion, but you're not thinking necessarily and analyzing a lot of. If you do things with the mind and no heart, you become the brutal dictator. You know, if you have the analysis of the mind and the consciousness of the heart for the decision making, but you can't get anything done. You know, you just sit there all day long. You're one of those people that has great ideas, but you know, you become lazy and it's almost like for me, you know, it would be something that I would call like almost cowardly. Like you have such ability to do good and you're not doing anything. So all these things can be in alignment for me. What was, what was messed up in me or what was limiting self limiting completely was relying on the heart. And so now I just, I come from a place of love, you know, I deliver every connection, every word I say. I make an attempt to make it loving and deliver it with kindness and be so grateful all the time and be so present and give you my 100%. And that's not 100% of me, but that's 100% of me as it relates to you. And in doing this, I've, I've slowly but surely been able to like resolve long standing feelings of doubt, doubt of self, self worth and also irritation and, or fear, really like really deep fears that result in anger and things like that. And then all of a sudden now I'm just, you know, smiling and loving and looking in each moment and having that intentionality, that really overt intentionality of making this a. Whatever this is, it's in love. And I want to laugh a lot, I want to have a lot of fun. And there's no one that I've met who doesn't respond really well to that.

They love it.

And on the flip side of it, if you're, you know, if you're a jerk and you're mean and you're angry or you're cruel or you're, you know, how do you, you know, what's the response that you get? It's, you get, it's a reflection of what you're doing, so it's negative. But if you're with positivity, but also being really intentional in that positivity, you know, like when you hold someone's hand, when you look someone in the eyes, like be thinking and saying what your intention is really overtly and it totally changes your experience and your connection with them. And all of a sudden every moment is like the best moment of my life.

But when you have that much truth, you have to really look at old relationships or even current relationships that have to be let go of because maybe they're used to the older version of you. Did you have that happen when you had this new realization?

Yeah. I mean all this. Yeah. There's as you transform eternally, the eternal transformation of fire, which is what Heraclitus, a pre Platonic philosopher, was all about. Very interesting stuff, that guy. In the eternal transformation, as you develop new things in yourself, some older things die or they're let go, or they diminish in size to make space for the new capacity and the new expansiveness of the consciousness and the intention that you have now. So that's where I'm really grateful that I've got my guts healthy. Because one, you have these realizations. There's so much discipline that you need to have. Just even with food, being intentional with food. Now I'm looking at the menu and my instinct immediately tells me what I need to order. And then I can hear my mind start to talk and start to think, get french fries, get this. And then you start looking at the pictures and all the food porn. And what I've done is. Yeah, been really careful with that and created like a dialectic because I still have some of those habits. These things don't die quickly. There's a daily moment to moment, second to second intention and an acting out of that intention with some mistakes that occur along the way. But as I continue to focus on this being good and focusing on the love of things, I've created kind of a dialectic with those older parts of myself where instead of that just dominating and controlling everything, now at least there's a conversation. And. Yeah. And so as I go forward, the old parts, you know, still need to be worked on. And some things change, you know, definitely some things change radically.

What's one of the biggest relationships or ways of being that changed?

The food thing's been really interesting for me. It's just like you eat food every day, it's such a present part of your life. But probably in terms of relationships with other humans, particularly in my professional world. So I'm the founder and CEO of my company SaunaSpace. I have 36 full time employees. I created all those jobs, by the way. They're all awesome. I have such a lovely team that works for me. And I found sometimes that over the years, you know, it's been like nine years that my communication style wasn't resonating and that would put me into like the tyrant mode. I'd be like, you know, the boss mode, let's call it. And it never worked. It never worked. It always led to conflict. And then I'm kind of interested in these different personality types you have, whether it's the Enneagram test or the Briggs Myers test or the traditional horoscope. Personality tendencies. I'm an Aries, so I'm really direct and really blunt. I make decisions. I contemplate carefully, and I make decisions. And then I can tell you once, and you can tell, or you can tell me once. Do this. And this is why. And I'm like, okay, got it. And there's other folks that are very high intelligence, very high emotional intelligence as well, and they just are not programmed that way. Like, they need to be told maybe a couple times, or just talk to them with a little bit of love. You know, not really couching of statements. Just like certain people, you just. They want a conversation. And I realized, wow, if I just talk to people with this approach of love and give them what they want and what they seek in the connection, all of a sudden, whoa, I get everything I want in the connection. From a professional's perspective, it's communication. And for whatever project or whatever task, and everybody smiles and everybody's happy, and it's so easy that if you apply that really generally with some people, it's a smile, it's a word, it's a look, and you give them what they want. What we all want is connection. We all want that deeply. And when we're present and we have an awareness of that, and we've developed ourselves and worked on ourselves, kind of worked on those bad things and developed all this goodness and these new things, we get just like a huge increase in the depth of the connections we have. Even with, like, the. The cashier at the grocery store, you know, you have a simple conversation, and then all of a sudden, we don't know the how and the why of the universe. But all of a sudden, like, things start working out for you.

Yeah, life's more enjoyable that way.

Life's more enjoyable. But then also, there's some really trippy things that happen sometimes where you get these connections and you. The universe begins to bring you what you need because you know what you want, and you know, you're correcting yourself. You're not trying to overtly, like, force people to help them, you know? You know, you know, do this, do that. You're working on yourself so that your house is not on fire. And, you know, the divine wants that he wants us to know what we want and work on ourselves. And then we get connections like this. Like, how I met you was really random. I was not supposed to be at that event. And I got to meet you in person and we got to talk a little bit. And here I am today in your studio, which is also the first time I've ever done this kind of in person. It's like, I'm so grateful. It's so great.

I sit on the bamboo. I know you have a stool in the sauna, but I sit down, and when I sit down, it allows me to breathe. Sometimes I'll sit and just read a book. Sometimes I'll just sit and close my eyes and just be there. And really, what I feel like you're talking about is if we bring ourselves back to this natural harmony, this natural, I guess you could say, expansion, contraction, tide of life, pace of life, correcting our circadian rhythm, treating our bodies with love, getting light when we're supposed to get light, getting the right type of light we're supposed to get, that starts to counteract a lot of the deleterious things that we've taken on. In other words, when we follow these waves and these paces of nature, it allows us to reset. It allows us to come back home and be calm and be able to do this and be able to talk to one another. And I think a lot of people need that the most because the overwhelming question and answer that comes in on Instagram or even in my personal inboxes, how do I have a better life? How do I live well? And my answer is always, you have to have better awareness. You have to have a higher level of awareness of what's going on. And the tools to get to that awareness usually involve you being still and just involve the natural harmony that exists in nature. So we do. We covered a lot of ground with the science.

Yeah, but.

But beyond just the science of sauna space, the photon, this light therapy, the way it differentiates from the traditional perceived red light therapy and all that on a spiritual, emotional lens, what is one of the benefits that you yourself have received? And maybe you get people that write in as well from your specific mode.

Of therapy, happiness and solace. And, you know, this word, this kind of word that we used to call the Zen state or the flow state, it's kind of hard to articulate, but it's when you're the most human, and when you're the most human, you're mostly in yourself. So, you know, I say self, and people think, you know, Self. Oh, selfish, right. I don't mean that. I mean self oriented. The more we're grounded in ourselves and we dial in on our issues and we correct them, the more we expand and the more we are available for others. So if you really want to help others, you need to not just first help yourself, but continually, every day, continue to put yourself first. Like when you get on the plane, you put the oxygen mass on yourself first. That's not because you want to survive at the expense of the other person. That's because you want to be available to actually help the other person in a meaningful way. And so when we act self oriented and we take care of ourselves, all we're doing is knowing ourselves more. And this is so fascinating. Like how could you possibly be anxious or hate yourself or be down on yourself or be opposed to yourself? It's all you. That's all an insane mind. You know, it's a trauma or a block that's a habit. It's a mind loop that's been developed that's a total distortion of your energetic field and your emotional self. Like it's all in your mind is the saying, right? It totally is. When we're in ourselves and we know what we really want, we're happy. And so if you look at my customer reviews and you look at some of the stories of some of our customers, honestly, I bring up one that was really in the beginning, back in the bricolage, in the early, early days when I was making like a few saunas a month. It was probably in the first six months or something. This woman calls me up and she's like crying on the phone and I'm like, what is this going to be some kind of customer complaint or something? And she says, brian, I'm so thankful I got my life back because of you. And so it ended up being this longer conversation, longer story of how she healed herself with the, with just using this product by and by the way, it was like painter's cloths, plastic plumbing pipe, chicken wire. There was no stool mat. It was just the most brico lodge looking thing you ever saw. And yet she healed herself so much. She humiliated all of her chronic disease. She had several big things that were going on. She was able to go back to work because she lost her job because she couldn't leave her house. And in going back to work, she was able to begin to provide for her family and correct her personal relationship with her partner. And she like her whole life got back. So it's not just the word happy, Josh. It's like, I don't even know how you quantify that. And it was all through this seemingly simple practice of sitting on your lazy butt and sitting in front of these lights and sweating a little bit and then working on every cell of the body at this really foundational, fundamental level. You get the physiological correction, but then you get the emotional correction. And, and then you get the con. The. Then everything around you can't. But correct as well. And so then you get everything you possibly could have asked for. And that was a review that came like really early on. And now you just see that it doesn't matter what your problem is or what you're dealing with. Physiological. Pretty much everybody nowadays on this, this pharmaceutical drug or that. But so many people are just so stressed out, you know, and they're just so sad or they're depressed or they're so. The neuropsychiatric component of things is so powerful and so shifted and distorted nowadays that I like to speak to that too. Like people, we have customers in the autoimmune world that have like corrected that. People in the sort of dementia world, like Alzheimer's, for example, there's not really conventional medical cure at all. In spite of like billions of dollars and 30 years of research and MS, progressive MS, for example, there's all kinds of crazy stuff that you're prescribed that has a lot of difficult side effects. And. And so, you know, I've been going to the Dr. Walls conferences for many years. She's a famous internal. You're familiar with Terry Walls? Yeah, yeah, I actually had her at my house one time. She's so she's basically been using the product for many years. She really likes it. You can see her Instagram, it's a little bit graphic. But she. I've been going to those conferences forever. Some of those folks who are in that space dealing with those types of issues have some of the most severe physical and gut and emotional and mental symptoms of any people I've ever met. And so I have some of those and you can read about them. Some customers from the Walls Warrior community, you can go on their Facebook group where they start out with a photon light because a lot of people with autoimmune issues have thermal regulatory problems. Their body like heats up and cools down. They can't control it and they'll use the photon light for six months on their gut and then they'll eventually get the sauna and they'll use two bulbs. So there's a three switch system in there for a reason. So you can titrate up to higher intensity. And now actually you can buy the three light panel as well, a different sauna heater that's called the three light tungsten panel. And you can actually use a seven bulb system, which you were at Luke's house. So he has this.

Yeah, he's got the.

He's got the Uber. So for people who are really healthy, no underlying condition, you know, not taking pharmaceuticals and stuff, they can. They can do more stimulation. But on the other side of that spectrum are folks like the. The ones I'm talking about where, you know, starting with one light outside the sauna and taking many months, even a year, to getting to one bulb with the curtain open, two bulbs, three bulbs, and then finally, if they can close the curtain and finally they can stay in for more than five minutes. And so the autoimmune stuff probably takes the most time to resolve of anything. Maybe one of the most complicated systems in the body. But here we see people resolving such incredibly complex chronic disease after. In many cases, in most cases, really, after having tried all the conventional stuff, spent all the money and time and all that stuff, all dedicated and not getting really very far, if at all, and then introducing other issues with side effects of those things. And when someone like that, that can't walk very well and can't sit down and can't use a computer because it's so stressful to their nervous system, can just do these things that you and I take for granted every day. Like, you know, how do you quantify that? Like, for me, that gets me so grateful. Like, it gets tears in my eyes. So those are the type of journeys that people have with my product, like, all the time.

I'm sure that pushes you through when, like, supply chain issues happen or business stuff may stress you out, that you just rely on those stories of really, truly serving people and helping people to push you through. Like, everybody's got, like, that moment in their life where they say, no matter what, like, I'm always gonna be moving forward. And then it's the test of the dream. Like, you have a clear purpose. It's very clear. It's from your own healing that you even came into this world, man. So I just so appreciate you, dude. I appreciate what you do in the world and how you showed up today. And honestly, like, I'm excited to see what happens. For me, I've only had the sauna for a month. I love it. I love the way it feels. I use it at my desk when I work, but, like, I could See that after two and three months, just the meditative process and that checking in of like, I'm gonna love myself today, I'm gonna go slow today. I'm gonna take 10, 15 minutes in the morning and just sit there and be with myself. And then I'm also gonna get that synergy stacking of everything else. That is probably the most, the most powerful thing we can do right now is like, can we save time? Can we save time as we like, live?

Well, you just hit it. I mean, quality time. What's the most valuable thing you have?

Well, it's the only thing that's finite.

Dude, in terms of, yeah, in terms of. And so quality time, I bring it up because quality time for yourself, it's something that we're always trying to help other people and our modern society is geared towards that, towards achievement and, and fame and monetary status and all that. And that the value of slowing down and taking time for your own self care is so important and so valuable that. Yeah, Josh, you just need to give it a few more months. Like, for me, the, the physical symptoms revolved really quickly. The, the sleep and stuff was in two sessions. My skin took two months to, to really improve. But then after six months, the lethargy, the, the impatience was gone. Like my, my irascibility was gone, My, my focus. And so for me now, what I noticed, or in the subsequent years, what I noticed was my brain was working better for all aspects that you can imagine. That's decision making, contemplation, recall, the improved cognitive function, stuff that just keeps getting better and better and better. And now for me, in this space of operating from a place of love and using my consciousness and applying that to most, if not all of my decision making, that's the most fascinating because the more you get aligned with all of these things, that's when you really tap into like an energetic part of yourself, the ethereal, you know, the highest frequency part. And for me in the sauna, I feel the, I feel it increasing my frequency. I feel the, the physical, the physiology and the physical effects. But when I, I never used to do meditation in the beginning, actually, I would always bring a book in there and I thought that was relaxing enough and then I would start. Over the years, I started working on breath work and trying different breath work things. But this meditation thing, you know, that was my mind in my mind loop. It was like, even in here, you don't have time for that. Brian. And so in the, in the last few years, definitely, but probably actually in the last year I really stopped and I was like, let's dial this in. What is this thing, this meditation thing? And so I started using some, some guided meditations that I use, but I've, I also do it kind of on my own where I'm doing a, an intentional breath work and then not taking anything in there. Not a book, not a Kindle, nothing. Only having maybe audio on a phone that's an airplane mode that's downloaded and doing a meditative practice where in combining that with breath work, sometimes I'm going inwards, sometimes I'm going outwards. But I've had such amazing epiphanies and downloads because I'm clear and present in the moment. I'm not thinking of the past or the future. You know, no guilt and no fear. Just right there in the moment. Just take that time to yourself. And the more you develop that practice. This is what's been so fascinating for me is I'm getting downloads. Like you have feelings that come up. You know, when you have meditation, it's not like you're there and it's in the void, of course, but then the whole point of it is, why am I feeling this? And then thoughts come up like, okay, what's that about? Why am I thinking that? What's going on behind that? And I've had various difficult decisions in my life. Various things or intentions or, you know, you have hopes and dreams like, what's your purpose in life? What do you really want? I've had some of those things begin to come up and, and I'm in this perfect Zen state in there and the, and you know, the Faraday, everything's like super dialed in. And I, I've begun to address those things and resolve things and put myself on paths and, and be able to make swift, meaningful changes. Working on my old self and driving towards my new self that I've just never had. And I've been doing the sauna for 10 years and it's only in the last like two years, but particularly in the last year, even more particularly more recently, like it's just become more and more accelerated. Those are the things that I see with really like long term use of my product. You get, you access your higher being.

Yeah. It's also just a place where you can be with yourself, which is the most important thing.

Like it's the most rare thing.

People have trouble meditating or just sitting with themselves. At least you can tell your logical mind, hey, I'm going to go get all these benefits of like hormesis and he did light therapy. And also I can be with me.

Dude.

Thank you for coming on the show. You guys have to check this out. I would start with the Photon. Is that the best place to start? Start with the small light or do you recommend if people take an inventory, should they go right to one of the larger saunas? Like how to. How do people decide what.

Yeah, yeah, we should give that a minute. We've been a lot in the theory, but just to break it down. Yeah, it's a wide catalog. The photon is great place to start because it's so easy to use. It doesn't take up space like the sauna. You don't have to take a shower afterward. It's easier to like take around in a lot of spaces. You know, it's just.

You try, you put that in your.

Yeah, we have a, we have a soft case that we, you know, this is all handcrafted in Columbia, Missouri. It's all beautifully made. We make this little travel case. It's really beautiful. So I carry that. It fits in my rolly luggage or sometimes I carry it in my big backpack that I have. But I carry it everywhere with me. So that's a great entry into this concept of incandescent therapy and sauna therapy that for those who are skeptical of the concept or just want to dip their toes in. But on the other hand, there are those of you who understand the science and understand the benefit and know what our value is and know what amazing product we have. And so let's be clear that the photon, it's the fire light, it's the frequency increaser. But if we think about it like technically in western terms, it's an adjunct therapy to the whole body therapy of the sauna. And if we really want to shift our everything and particularly if we're dealing with some really deep seated health issues, the sauna is really the starting point for a lot of things. And so most people, they're either getting the photon to start out with or they're getting the sauna and the photon at the same time. Understanding the different applications of each. And then just a little bit more on the sauna. We do sell the tungsten infrared sauna panel on its own. So many people already have a sauna. They already have a far infrared sauna or a finished sauna, or they have a little Harry Potter closet or we even have a shower conversion kit to where you're taking an enclosed space and you're using it like a sauna. But you're, you're, you're Upgrading to the sauna space, light and heat technology to get that efficient, get that best of the best experience. But you can, you can buy that and like your, you know, you said you already had one of these, so you could have in instead. If you didn't have this beautiful space, you didn't have the space. You buy just the sauna space, tungsten panel in a three or four bulb or a both version. And then you get, and you get everything, and you get everything technologically from the product. And then if you step up from that, the benefits of like what you have are, first of all, it's a, it's a beautiful handmade portable enclosure. It's all organic, super. Everything's basswood.

There's no crazy off gassing.

No, there's none of that. I think aesthetically it's better. It's more. It feels really tribal inside. It's kind of like a little, it does.

It's kind of like you're in a little teepee.

Yeah. You're in a little Bedouin, you know, a little ancestral space. So you have that going on. But also your product has the grounding mat in it that's in both of our saunas, the Luminati sauna and the Faraday sauna. The grounding mat protects you from the wired voltage from the electricity. And then if you want to step up into my Tesla class, that's the Faraday sauna, which you're actually trying out. So that has a unique optional EMF blocking liner system that's made of silver. It's 30% silver. That fabric that. So that's an upgrade. So you can start with the heater and buy that and then get the enclosure later. Or you can go full Faraday. From the beginning, I'm all about making this as easy and as practical as possible for you. Some people have the budget, but they just don't have the space. And they do a thing in their closet where they use a shower conversion kit. But definitely my best product is what you're trying out. It's the Faraday and it comes in different colors. We have a sexy hand dyed turmeric color that's for those who want something really loud and fun.

Come on.

But all of it is designed to like, hey, try it out, you know, see if it works for you. My products, all, it's, it's really the way I treat people is the way I want to be treated when I buy something. We get 100 day home trial. You can return it for free if you don't like it. The product's built to last forever. If you call us up, we have in house customer support. I've got. My team members, have worked there for years. They're right next to me. We, you know, it's all intended to be a very nurturing lifetime experience because we want to help you help yourself. And it's all about making it super convenient and a beautiful experience because we're not just about function, right? It's not just the therapy. We're so about form. It's form and function together. We want things to be beautiful around us. So that's been one of the intentions of my design from the beginning. So beyond that, there's just so much love that goes in the product of all the team members that we have, and me more than anything, like, from the beginning. This is a duplicate of me. I don't know if you want to hear that. That's a funny little story. I mentioned it.

It's a duplicate of you.

So when I was six years old, I shot myself in the eye with a BB gun, like in the Christmas story. Whoa. Yeah. And so I had an eye patch for three days in the hospital. Every thought I was going to be blind. It was a super traumatizing thing. It was a defective BB gun, actually. It was this whole crazy thing. So since then, when that happened, my iris got torn. So if you look at my left eye under bright light, you can see that the lens of the eye, the iris is only on the bottom and the top, the pupils exposed permanently, so it lets in too much light all the time. And I've always kind of squinted like this and. And all that. So I had this realization recently. Josh, you'll find this pretty fascinating, or maybe you will. So since age of 6, I let in too much light, and I have too much light. And so here I am making light and distributing it out to everybody else, because I have too much light inside me ever since a very young age. And I've always. From, like, an emotional perspective. I've always been a really loving person, all of that. And so when I say it's a duplicate of myself, that's what I mean. It's the light inside of me that I found a way to channel and develop this product that creates so much healing and help and so much good feeling and so much love for these other people. And it creates connection more than anything because there's so much energetic love behind it, behind the intentionality of what I. What we at Saunaspace, like, want to happen for you. And so every Time you sit in the sauna, you turn on that light. That's a little part of me, you know, giving you a little bit of positive energy. And so also what I realized in all of this is like, oh, of course I make lights, you know, because I have a lot of light, maybe too much light. And, and then the other thing is the connection. A connection is a two way street. So I connect to you and you connect to me. So now I have this distributed network of like, of love lights, of these things that bring positivity and bring happiness and bring healing. And when you use that, as it increases your frequency, it comes back energetically and increases mine and gives me more, just more momentum and more impetus to like do more good and do other things. And so I just realized this recently, like everything is connected that way. And, and I see that in the customer reviews and the people and see that in really the success of the product in the sauna market that's really flooded with a lot of stuff, the light therapy market, there's so many different things you can go with.

Yeah.

And yet here we are like handcrafting, doing this our own thing and very quietly just continue to rise.

There is all. Thank you for sharing that story, man. There is always something that nature calibrates and it is, you can force something for a while, but if you just stay with your dream like you have, eventually, if you just stay true to it, you'll get all the rewards that spirit wants you to get. And it's obvious you've gotten that. There's no way you could have 36 employees if you were trying to force something, it would come crashing down at some point. So it's a testament to you, man. And as we say goodbye, like give us the answer to this question, at least at the time and the consciousness you are now. What is well being to you? What is a life well lived? How would you define wellness? There's a lot of talk in this world about gut health, but when it really comes to gut health, you don't always need supplements to make your internal world sparkly clean again. The majority of the time you can heal and nourish your gut simply by using the right foods and eating the right nutrients. For me and my family, when it comes to gut health, we start with food, specifically healthy, sustainable animal food. Foods that are pasture raised, organically spiced and naturally fermented, like the pasture raised turkey sticks from our partners and friends at Paleo Valley. Now the naturally occurring probiotics is what truly sets these turkey sticks apart. Also they taste amazing and they satiate me. They're GMO free. They have delicious flavor. This beautiful satiating protein is digested with every bite. This cage free free range pasture raised poultry. It's the equivalent of 100% grass fed cows. You can feel good and pick up your multi pack of these pasture raised turkey sticks over at joshtrent.com forward/paleovalley make sure you use the code Josh. That's Josh to get 15 off your entire order, make your gut happy and stop being hangry. No more hangriness. Joshtrend.com forward/paleovalley Use code Josh to save 15 off your entire order from my friends at Paleo Valley.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of a lot of the things we've touched on this whole conversation, but it's, it's just not just in the physical. The physical is the first thing to address. Like you said, I love that. But then it's like, okay, well now what? Well, then the emotional, then the mental, then the energetic, then the spiritual. A life, you know, a life of wellness is a, is a, a life of intentionality where there's so much love at every moment and so much beauty and so much laughter and fun that the moments of some sort of form of fear, whether it's anger or envy or guilt or whatever, are diminished dramatically so that they're just not there almost ever. And it's not like traumatic things don't happen and it's not like you don't have feelings of sadness. But when you correct all these things, real wellness is when you process everything. For me anyway, this is just what I've figured out for myself. And I encourage everybody to just try to explore this space for themselves because everybody's so different. But for me, it's all about love. Love is the highest frequency. And so when I'm doing this and sometimes I revert and makes mistakes or whatever, but when I act out of, you know, hold space and be loving and focus on this highest frequency of all, the frequency of love and being my best self and continually becoming my best self. And when you have love and fun and laughter. For me, I've realized every moment of every day. Like right now, this is the best moment of my life. And for me, every day is like that. Every day is the best day of my life because I'm super present and I'm not perfect, but I have an intention of being my better self. And so I'm present. I'm in this moment with Love. And I'm not looking back. I'm just constantly, eternally transforming. I'm not even maybe exactly in the present. I'm in that precipice of going towards the future, to becoming better and better and better. And so, yeah, yesterday was great. That was actually the best day of my life. Yesterday. Now I've changed my mind. Now today might be the best. We'll see. I still got a half day left. But seriously, who can say that? And I was like, if you said that to me years ago, I'd be like, you're crazy. What are you talking about, man? It's always, you got your bad days, you got your good days. I no longer think that. I think it's how you process things, even things of great density and great weight. And maybe when you're interacting with someone, there's a lot of negativity and antagonism maybe in the connection, even with that doubling down on the love is never a wrong thing for me. It's always. It's always. You know, it always works. It's always been working.

So my nervous system feels that my nervous system trusts that. Thank you, man. Thank you for coming on the show.

Yeah, thank you. It's been so fun.

You guys check out right here. We're going to leave a link. Brian gave you a really generous discount, so thank you, man. The code is Josh10. You can go to JoshTrent.com forward/SaunaSpace. Also, make sure you check out the show notes here. There's lots and lots of stuff we didn't have time to cover about Kellogg's work and about all the masters that you learned from. So they're all right here below the show. So until we see you again, we're both wishing you love and wellness. We'll talk to you soon. Hey, thanks for watching this video. If you love this video, hit subscribe. That way you'll be automatically notified when new videos come out, new episodes. And also should this video with a friend. If you loved it, they're gonna love it, too. Check out some of the videos on this screen that are perfectly curated based on the video you just saw. Make sure you follow me and I'll see you in the next video.