Mark Groves | Create More Love: How To Deal w/ Breakups & Boundaries | Wellness Force #Podcast

To me, an actual broken heart is a closed heart. An actual broken heart is one that isn't willing to open again, is protective, guarded walled, which I think can be important for the healing aspect. If you've been. If you don't have boundaries, if you've been walked on, if you've experienced trauma, abuse, all those things, there is actually an important boundary that is the complete individuation of self that doesn't allow anything in as you repair. And then you build up some level of confidence and relationship with self, capacity for self. Maybe you do it through different healing modalities. Maybe you see a therapist, maybe you do somatic work, but then you gently walk back into the world, protecting and preserving that wholeness.

Super grateful to do what I do, to share time with you, to be a friend and just joyous. I feel joyous. So, Mark Groves, welcome back to the show, man. Good to have you back.

What's up, man? I'm happy to be back. I have been looking forward to this conversation for quite some time.

Me too. There's been, I guess you could say, a lot of change, Some tumultuous, some smooth. But change has been blowing like leaves in the wind. So there's so many things I want to cover with you today. People have already heard your own wellness force, so I'll link that in the show notes. It's Create the Love was actually the episode name, and that was a year and a half ago. Since then, I have gotten in a relationship. You've gotten back with a relationship. We're gonna explore boundaries and how triggers are really invitations for healing and so many things, man. But if you took a deep breath and with all you've created, like, it's almost a million people that are following you now, learning from you on Instagram. If you were to take a deep breath right now in 2021 and really, like, feel the progress you've made, what are you most proud of yourself for? Like, what are you most grateful about your soul's evolution here on this planet.

Man. Let me do that then. Oh, when I look back at 20, 2020, the end of 2019, 2020, and then now where we are, I mean, I feel like we've all gone through sort of personal and collective initiations, you know, invitations to. To stand in truth and whatever that means for each person, individually and collectively. I think collectively, that's an invitation to reclaim our relationship to the planet, reclaim our relationship, to treating each other with a deeper respect and unconditional love and also treating it's collective right it's like how we've been fucking plummeting this planet for how long? And now we're saying, like, wait, there's consequences to all of these things. Yeah. And so I think it's a similar thing from my personal experience for the last bit has. I think I'm most proud of just being able to sit in the state of always being the student like that when I am given feedback or hit a wall or a challenge or a trigger, that there's this deep sense of reverence in the wisdom that is withheld in it, that. That comes ahead of my need to be right or my need to feel certainty or any of those things that I've learned how to hold a space where a former part of me that didn't know what I know today, there's compassion for him, but there's also this no fuck. Like, we must stand up and learn. Integrate this new thing. And that has been art. I don't know that historically, especially when I was younger, I was able to hold both the shame of not. Of not living what I know now and expanding to living what I just learned. You know, I would stay in the old thing because I was afraid to hold it, that shame. So, yeah, man, 2020 has been this, like, container expanding. I just feel so much more broad.

I think about the work of Kelly Brogan, who we both interviewed, and she talks about the contract and expansion. Right, The. I think she calls it like the spiral. And holy shit, has that occurred. Because anytime there is chaos, there is eventually going to be chaos seeking order, whether in ourselves, in collective society, or whatever it is. So as you take, like, stock of 2021, with everything that you've been creating and you already have created, what are you most being pulled towards this year? 2020 was initiation, straight up hero's journey. Like, let me bleed, let me learn. But what are you like as you lean into 2021? Like, what are you most excited for there? What's pulling you forward?

Yeah, you know, I think as you said, 2020 was an invitation into the darkness, you know, as an invitation into the painful. The. The. You know, we. You use the term hero's journey, and I love that because we, in some sense, we, like, want to be the savior. We want to chase the light. We want to, you know, we've sort of negated or made wrong what we call negative emotion as opposed to seeing that pain, anger, rage, sadness, grief, they all inform us. And, you know, I feel like 2021 is really this rising, you know, for me personally, of like, My voice getting louder, my leadership getting more powerful. And I don't mean that from a leader of people. I mean leadership within myself. Because to be honest, I could give a shit about having Instagram followers or anything like that if it meant that I ever had to trade in my truth to get them. You know, for me, it's like, that's cool that other people want to have conversations that I'm having, because I sort of like you do. I'm just expressing my transformation, like, I'm just expressing what I'm going through so that people can have a window into what I'm going through or what I'm learning. And I do that to say, like, I'm a student with all of you. I'm in the trenches with you. And I think in 2021, oh, man, it just feels like we're all advocating for ourselves more. We're all fighting for each other more. We're all. Gosh, it just feels like so many systems are. Are that are. That are based on, you know, exploitation and all the things are being eradicated or at least invited to be eradicated. I think we're sort of at this why in the road?

There's a collective choice point happening too, right? As at that. Why. So what you're bringing up is like, there's. There's two. Two roads diverge in the wood. Are we going to take the one less traveled by? You know, I don't know.

Although ironically, is more traveled, you know, historically, you know, are we going to connect back to nature and community and whole foods and, you know, also recognize that. That access to whole foods is. Is. Is not fair to, you know, like, access to clean food, access to all these things, especially with what's occurring in terms of the transfer of wealth and the dissolution of small business, the. I mean, severe impact on mental health, the lack of safety. To even have those conversations, you know, I think is, you know, it's fascinating to me when I want to talk about the impact of lockdowns, which is a very important conversation in terms of a mental health perspective and a human connection perspective said, like, don't you value the lives of the people who are passing from COVID I'm like, this is actually the value of life. This is the whole conversation. The collective conversation is actually the value of it. To deny the other aspects from a public health or epidemiological perspective is. Is to me, not a healthy thing to do. You know, I think when we can have healthy dialogue with one another where we may not agree, then there's space for everybody. And I think from an individual, relational perspective, that's important, because if you or I are in a romantic relationship, but even, you know, in a friendship, two truths will always coexist. Even in a conflict with your partner, two truths always coexist. And it doesn't make one more right than the other. It just. This relationship has enough space for both, and together we move forward. Broadened. Your truth broadens mine, and my truth broadens yours, as opposed to your truth negates mine, which is not actually true. And I was thinking, I saw this really great meme the other day, and I wish I could remember the author because it was incredible, but it was basically saying, like, when you conflate, I think you shared it too. When you conflate my opinion or my thoughts with my identity, then when you disagree with my opinion, you are innately disagreeing with me. And so then love becomes not available in that moment. And I thought that, what an interesting thing, because so many of us, our beliefs are our identities. Well, if my beliefs, my identity, like my religion, what I believe to be true about the world, about relationships, about whatever, if I sense that there's something that means that's not true anymore, then that is too destabilizing for my identity. So I'll deny it and I'll double down. And I remember Russell Brand saying, like, allow your identity to be fluid. And my friend Louis Alaro, he said this beautiful quote, he said, live as if one of the core foundations of what you base your identity upon is dead wrong. And it's usually the one you cling to most.

Oh, that. That hits my heart, man. There's so much there to unpack. I've heard that resonated, too, from Daniel Schmachtenberger and Encinitas. He was like, can you look through life through someone else's eyes? Can you see life through someone else's eyes? And the way that you're describing this, like, identity, where I think there's a lot of identity shifts going on, there's the collective identity shift, where it's like, okay, the old structures of power and the old school patriarchy, it's fucking dying, let's be honest. And it's grappling.

It needs to.

It needs to. And then there's the beliefs within ourselves. One of the coolest things that I learned in your course, in the boundaries course that I took, which was amazing, by the way, so thank you for creating that. There's a space here, and you. And you say, begin with the end in mind. No one will come and save you. No one will come riding a white horse and take all your worries away. You have to save yourself little by little each day. Build yourself a home, take care of your body. Find something to work on, something that makes you excited, something you want to learn. You quoted Charlotte Erickson and I love this because beginning with the end in mind, there is no other ultimate truth than we are sovereign and we have to make our own decisions in life. We cannot depend on the who, depend on the cdc, depend on anyone else to have our identity either be completely understood and integrated or have the permission to actually have our identity shift back and forth. How have you navigated that journey of identity shifting? Because a year and a half ago you told me you were by stream and your psyche was splitting.

You know, you're going through stuff with.

Kylie, which we're going to talk about today. A big part of this conversation is the reconnection to your love. But going back, like, how have you navigated the identity shifting in the world as we go through a collective identity shift as well?

Man, so many beautiful points that you made. And I think about sitting by that stream. It be now a year and a half ago almost, and just like, I remember just feeling like my brain was gonna explode. And I was talking with this spiritual teacher a year ago, her name's Gangaji. And I said to her, you know, like, I feel like my mind can't understand everything, the complexity of the human experience, like even to just fathom that I'm on this rock in the middle, you know, like to go into like you're this pale blue dot, you know, as Carl Jung talks about. And there's something awe inspiring about that, but there's also something completely disruptive and destabilizing about that. And I remember saying that to her and she said, the mind cannot understand what it was created within. And so like this journey is not to be understood by the mind. It can't be. And that's sort of, I think, where this merger of spirituality and religion and just the human experience is like that idea of like, let go and let God, which I'm not Christian, but I really do appreciate that perspective of like, there's a quote from Christ that is to be in the world, but not of the world. And so to like know that you're going to dance in these human systems and these biological processes and you're going to have to embrace your spiritual perspective that there's something grander going on. And that's why I think something like science Which I love science, but it's only a snapshot. It's. We can't possibly. And if we do, we've already lost. Live with the arrogance that we know how it all works. And, and Ram Dass has a great quote where he says miracles are a reminder that we don't know how it all works. And you can't deny miracles exist. You can watch the documentary heal. Watch that one called Escaping. I think it's called Escaping Death, the one on Sudden Death on Netflix or on.

I just saw the first episode this week. It's incredible, right?

And you go, okay, well, if we don't know how it all works. And I think what you said, you know, like, we can't trust things like the CDC or the WHO or whatever. It's like if we can just start to not just take information that we hear and just make it true. And the reason that's true, that's important. Not just from like that scientist said this. So scientists used to say that DDT was good for you. They used to say that smoking was good for you.

More doctors recommend camels than any other brand.

Right? So. So I think, like, if we can just accept that as true, like it. We have been manipulated by where money is made. Same with the food industry. Fat's bad. Oh well, guess what's good for you? Tons of sugar that makes you an addict. That we're still, now we're seeing all the consequences from. And we've been seeing them for a long time. You know, so I used to be a pharmaceutical rep. So I was in that world. I used to, like when I look back, I'm like, oh my God. Like I was so indoctrinated in the thinking and why all of this is important from an individual perspective is the same, the same discernment that must happen is the discernment of what was I taught about relating? What was I taught about love? What was I taught? Like when someone says to me, I don't believe in marriage, I'm like, come up with a different definition. You don't believe in a definition that someone gave you. Write it out for you. What would it look like? Like we just inherit these relational patterns. We inherit these trauma respons. We also experience them in our own lives. But we. If you just look up five generations of your family tree, assuming no divorce, which is not most family trees, and a lot of the ones that have no divorce should have had divorce. So if you just look up, you've got 30 people's stuff that's funneled down into you. And that's just important to recognize, because if no one's ever taught you how to relate or how to be better at relationship, which is a skill set, you're not just destined to what you inherited. You are actually possibly likely the first generation to actually give a fuck about how you relate and actually go, like, thanks for the U haul filled with baggage, mom and dad. And if you start to see them as the children of parents, you start to see that they got given a truck, too, and they might not have had the resources or the time or the awareness or the information that the collective gets from things like the Internet, you know, conversations that you have on your podcast. You know that, like, if you never learned it, how would you know? So now you got to learn it. But if you got to learn it, you got to change it. And so I think when you can question one collectively, the information you get, you also have to question what you inherited and what you were taught and recognize that what you were taught about what was a good job, what your worth was in, whether, like, for most people, if they're not in a relationship, they are not seen as valuable for themselves. And society has created that construct. And so I was like, I love to read to say to people, like, whenever. Whenever you lose something that you place your worth in, it is to remind you that it doesn't live there. So if someone leaves you and you go, they decimated me. I go, what did you give them? Like, what did you give them that they can leave you decimated? Because if we live under the concept which I think we should, that we're already whole, If I've been taught that my worth and my completeness and my wholeness lives in something else, a relationship, a good Instagram following, someone agreeing with my opinions, my thoughts, and my feelings, then whenever those things don't occur, I don't feel complete. So if I don't feel complete, I'm going to go look for them in other people. And so when you can start to see that you do that, like, how many people liked my picture? How many people enjoyed my TikTok or my butt or my whatever it is, it's like, go get it back. Because you gave it away, and you were taught to give it away. You know, we were taught to seek validation, but the very act of seeking validation, which is because we were invalidated, and you can find out why or not, but the very act of doing it creates the need for it. And so my. That's a long fucking rant.

It's A big. It's a great rant because I'm feeling. The core question here is if I'm feeling invalidated and if I feel like decimated by a love or a relationship, there's a duality there. Like, to love is to really give oneself, even if they're whole. To give oneself. And so if you give oneself and you do get decimated, that's okay too. Like the understanding, the understanding of that. So how do you, how do you explain those two worlds? I know you don't work with people one on one anymore, but you basically, like, teach people through your channels, through your content. Does this come up in your courses, your programs, or online where people are like, you don't understand, Mark. I just got destroyed by this relationship and I've done so much emotional work and I feel whole and I feel good within myself. Yet why does love hurt so bad?

Yeah, I mean, that's a great line of distinction, which is if your heart is open when a relationship ends, you're going to have grief and sadness, maybe anger, maybe rage. You might have a lot of things. You also might have joy, you might have relief. You're a complex human, so you'll have a complexity of emotions and there's going to be more than one present because you're not singular. And I think often we think like, wait, I feel relieved when we broke up. Now I feel guilty for feeling relieved. And it's like, because you're not supposed to, you're supposed to be sad and take this much time to get over something. And if you don't do that, then you're not following society's rules. And I'm saying, fuck all that. Just observe the information and the complexity of yourself. Now if someone leaves or you end a relationship and you feel decimated, then there's this line of like being able to observe, where did you give yourself away? Where did you get walked on? Where did you betray yourself? Even in the face of betrayal? And I'm not talking in the context of narcissism or abuse, just let me put that caveat. There is in the face of betrayal. The betrayal often occurs after we've already betrayed ourselves. You know, like when we've, by the time a relationship ends, the writing has been there all, you know, along places. And to deny that to me, like there might be very small caveats, small percentages. And I'm sure someone listening is like, not me, that's sure. But if we're willing to look at our 50%, then we're willing to see that we're always part of the dance. And you know, I think of like when Kai and I broke up, I was so invited to grief. But, you know, what occurred was that love didn't end, you know, like just because the container of the relationship changed. Love didn't change. There was so much love there. And that's what was so. It was like I wanted, as that ended, Kai and her response to that, she wanted to go within and go into healing and go into a cocoon and go on her own search. And I wanted to share with her permission, the that your heart can still be open as this happens, that you can still be filled with grace. And I didn't want to share that. Like, who wants to go on a podcast and sob and talk about a closing ceremony they have with their partner? But I had to. I had to because I wanted people to see that the ending of a relationship can actually be the loving choice. And you know, I think a lot of grief that we experience from a heartbreak or rejection, abandonment, whatever it is, is actually old grief too. And I think in a lot of ways I hadn't processed fully, like been so present to my grief. Like when it came, it came in a storm and I was, I'm sober, so it was like I didn't even have alcohol to escape to or women to escape to. I wanted to fully feel it. And man, I gotta say, like, I thought I was paying attention before I would have said, oh, I'm conscious, I'm aware, I pay attention to my emotions not from an arrogant place, but from like a recognition of self. Oh man, I'm like, man, I wasn't paying attention because if you're awake to the world, you can't not be experiencing.

What weren't you paying attention to.

The world is suffering. Just the immense amount of human suffering, the immense amount of my own, the amounts of self abandonment, the amount of codependency, the amount of women feeling like they don't have power in relationship or even in the world. Amount of men who, who have unconscious ways of manipulating, of still clinging on to old power systems, also having total being totally severed from their emotionality because their fear, it's in conflict with their masculinity. So like all of these things I just started to feel and I realized like, then I went deep into anti racism work and looking at the patriarchy and the history of white supremacy, the history of the patriarchy, and I was like, you can't be in pain. You can't not be in pain. If you're paying attention And I think so many of us are drawn to our addictions and the Internet and dopamine to escape walking around and just seeing what is which. You can't turn down one area of your life and not turn down all of them. You know, like, you can't numb yourself from the reality that domestic violence has gone up during this time. Suicide, starvation, unemployment, like, you can't turn that down. But people are turning it down. And because they're turning it down there, they're actually, they're actually decreasing their own capacity for empathy. Because you can't again, turn down empathy in one area not. And be empathic in another. I can't. If I can't hold space for all of that, I can't hold space for you because I don't want to see your suffering. I can't hold that suffering. So how can I hold your suffering if that makes sense?

It makes beautiful sense. There's so much to unpack there, by the way. Like, I experience you connected to all these things you're talking about. This isn't something where you're just, like, creating memes as you speak. Like, I really feel you, you know, I really feel your connection to the varied angles and levels of suffering in this world. And at times, especially for my partner Carrie, she's expressed like, God, there's times where I wake up and I feel sad. And it's not just mine. Like, there's a collective sadness, a collective shadow. Whether you're empathic or not, this is a challenging time. And I know we've all heard this before, so it's not like, new news, but I believe, and I'm curious what you believe with what you've gone through during COVID by the way, was the whole back and forth with you and Kai and also a back and forth about are we going to pay attention to the hurt in our world collectively? It's kind of like everything was flushed up in a moment. How do we, and what kind of tools did you learn or access to guide you through that without going to the drink, without going to the things that would numb your pain and not you actually open more? I think you said something like, my heart is breaking in ways that I didn't even know existed before. Before. So how do, how do you manage that? How do we manage that and stay conscious of this opportunity, like you said, to be triggered and, and to, for it to be learned. Something to be learned.

Well, I think the, there needs to be a redefinition. I, I, I felt this, at least in my Experience of my breakup was that there needs to be a redefinition or redefining of what a broken heart is. Because I think a broken heart is an open heart. Like, to experience the pain of your loss or your transformation or your grief or like any ending is death. And it's a mortality. It's a mortality of who you were. It's a mortality of the container. And so there needs to be that space. There's a bridge between all transformations. That's the cocoon. And you're always in some form of cocoon. It doesn't end. But it's like, I really saw that as I broke my heart broke. It was actually. I was. There was so much more capacity for me as I, like, breathed into the grief. You know, I. I had a commitment to myself, one that I just. The. I wouldn't touch alcohol because there's just. It doesn't feel like a light choice. It feels like I would actually be running from. So I did one night, and I was actually. Let me just complete that other thought, which is, to me, an actual broken heart is a closed heart. An actual broken heart is one that isn't willing to open again, is protective, guarded walled, which I think can be important for the healing aspect. If you've been. If you don't have boundaries, if you've been walked on, if you've experienced trauma, abuse, all those things, there is actually an important boundary that is the complete individuation of self that doesn't allow anything in as you repair. And then you build up some level of confidence and relationship with self, capacity for self. Maybe you do it through different healing. Healing modalities. Maybe you see a therapist, maybe you do somatic work, but then you gently walk back into the world protecting and preserving that wholeness. And right after we broke up, I remember I. You know, I had this drawer at home that had, you know, the marijuana in it. And I remember looking at a joint that was perfectly wrapped. It was just, like, beautiful. Singing my invitation. And I remember thinking to myself, like, okay, universe. And I didn't smoke a lot of weed every once in a while, but I was like, okay, universe, if I'm not supposed to smoke this, just show me a no. And, oh, my God, I'm with my buddy Jackson, who made this hat, actually, Jackson Hell. And we're eating a steak, and I take a bite of the steak, and I start to choke on it.

Wow.

Now, I'm sure everyone has experienced, like, where potato gets duck and you drink water, right? And you get it down I go to do that. I can't swallow. I'm like, literally, my airway is blocked. I'm choking. Like, I'm now in this space. And this is a month after my breakup. This is, you know, chilling.

You're, like, really in the hurting of this at that moment.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I'm right. I'm right in it. I think just after the closing ceremony. Yeah, it was. Boundaries are in. We're not talking at that point. And I'm sitting there, and I, like, reach over and grab Jackson. I'm like, hey, hey, hey. And he's like. And I grabbed my throat. He's like, are you okay? I'm like, mm, Mm. And he gets up, and he's giving me the Heimlich maneuver. And it's. I'm thinking to myself, like, is this how I go? Like, will they get to me in time? Will my brain be damaged? Will I be able to ever. Will I be here again? And eventually it starts to go down, which I'm not sure if that's the right way, but either way, it got out of the way and I got air in. And I just remember being like, yes, like, I hear you. Like, this must be walked gently, and this must be walked present. And I. I think, like, everything. I remember talking to Gangaji and saying to her. She asked, what was I most afraid of? She asked, what are you most afraid of? And I said, going into silence, like, into stillness. And she said, what are you afraid you'll find there? And I was like, me, just more of me. And I get emotional saying that, because there was almost like, this. This, like, fear of really feeling everything. And that wasn't new. That was old, but it was like I was finally ready, you know, I really thought to myself, like, as things I could breathe again and life was coming back to me in the lighter side, I really had this beautiful meditation where I just was like, the child can rest the adults here. And so there was this completion of this initiatory process of really becoming an adult, like, not letting the kid in me, who wanted to people, please and was afraid of being left or not acknowledged or whatever, not being important. That I was like, those fears are not going to run my life or my relationships anymore and how I communicate. And I'm sure that's, you know, like, there's no better place to practice codependency than to have an Instagram based on helping people, you know? But then wanting people to agree with what you say as opposed to being okay with people not liking you. Well, it's the greatest healing of my codependency is saying things that people don't like, but knowing that they're true for me. And if they're not true for you, I. That's totally okay, you know, so it's been a. It's been a journey.

The part that hit my heart and cracked my heart open was when you said, the child can rest because the adult is here. That is like something that I think people can feel. It's one thing to try to intellectualize a comment like that and say, okay, yeah, I know I'm going to parent myself. Mark, I've. I've heard your teachings. I understand that I get to be my own parent. But to, but to actually embody and like, have something click in physiologically, emotionally, spiritually, like to have your meridians actually be connected to what's coming out of your mouth there, There's a unique process in doing that. And I'm curious if you could share, like, for you, what's that process and how do you teach people that come to you to parent themselves? Essentially, that's what this is. And we ask the universe, like, you know, what can I do to serve and what can I be? And the universe brings you hardcore challenges, doesn't it? Universe always bring things you say where you're going to be like, taken down to your knees. You're going to have to have your heart break in ways that you didn't know were imaginable. You're going to have to choke on steak. We're all going to have to go through our own initiations. So to bring it back around, like, how do we connect spiritually and energetically to be the parent, like you said, in these moments where, let's face it, society is set up to take us away from that, to pull us away from being our parent, to drink, to smoke, to shop, to fucking, to do all this other bullshit, how do we stay true to that?

Amen. You know, because the source of what fuels those things is the disconnection from self. It's the not acknowledging how you actually feel, not exalte acknowledging that you were invalidated, that you were taught to self abandon to belong. You know, but if you adjust yourself in any way to belong, which every human does, till they wake up and have awareness and are like, wait, why do I do what I do and do I want to still do those things? Are they conducive to my values? How I want to live my life? Is my religion, my choice, or what I was born into is My occupation, my choice, or what I was born into. And those are really dissonance causing questions because if you can hold them and say they aren't, then you go, well, why the fuck have I been doing all this stuff? Because you were taught. Well, there's a big sadness to that. And, and that's that grief and rage that we have to learn to access because that fuels the transformation. So the journey, which I'm sure everyone listening, if they're listening to your podcast, are on and likely deep within, yes. Is recognizing that there are some things we're taught that are good, you know, so it's not everything you're taught is bad, but it's like, what systems do you still want to participate in? You know, I did this Instagram, I did this question and answer. And one of the questions was, is it a red flag if a guy pays on the first date? Doesn't pay, sorry, on the first date. And I thought like, okay, well, I know there was a lot of complexity to it because like, if he invites you, then he should, blah, blah, blah. And yeah, let's put all that stuff.

I would pay personally. That's my own story.

I get that. I get that. Now it's interesting to start to question why we place value in that. Because we could say that it's a green flag for a man to invite, and I'm speaking heteronormatively, a woman to pay for half on her first date because he recognizes she can support and take care of herself, and he doesn't. Because the very act of buying, if we're just talking about it on an evolutionary perspective, creates reciprocity, an unconscious desire to want to owe you back. So if I invite you to my wedding, you're going to feel obliged to invite me to yours. That's human evolution. And that was designed. If you look at Robert Cialdini's work, the book Influence, super interesting stuff. And there's tons of studies to prove this. And so there is one study, I can't remember the exact percentage, but like if a woman is open, if a man, if a woman is accepting of a man buying her a drink, she's seen as some really like 80, 90% more open to sexual advances because that's the dynamic that the system has created. And Esther Perel talks about this, you know, saying that like, this is the greatest old trading system and the me too movement is the pulling down of the power dynamic and the inviting up. And I think that's a really important conversation to be having because. And I am sure, we sort of got a little off topic here, but the point of this being that when we are even adamant that someone must. And it's a red flag if they don't, my question is, who taught you that? Just, can you be open to why that's true. And if you're participating and choosing a mate based on it, which is totally different than intuition and red flags and all that stuff, then are you still participating in the patriarchy? And do you want to keep the parts you like and. And get rid of the parts you don't? Because to me, all of them, because I don't get triggered by that subject, because it doesn't matter to me. It's like, I just want to have a conversation about the systems that are at play on why we get so emotional about this subject.

Yes.

Because, oh my God, this storm of comments that if people didn't agree with each other and I'm like, let's all take a collective breath and just ask why we're even involved in this conflict.

Yeah.

As opposed to like, okay, because as soon as you start deconstructing systems, you start to deconstruct your role in the systems and to get back to the inner child and. And the creating space for that is to create space for where you have self abandon for belonging to. And say, okay, if I was to give birth to my fullest self, my opinion, my thoughts, my feelings, my voice, who could I still keep in my life? Who might be disrupted by that? Am I still willing to do that at the cost of myself? And these are all questions we face all the time. I mean, I face them all the time.

You know why I love podcasting so much is because sometimes I have a moment like this with someone like you, and I learn even more about what I've already learned from you. And that is, in order for us to create the love, we first have to understand what love actually is. And with your work, we cannot create from a space we don't know what is. So we have to fully understand what love is. And all the nuances and all the descriptions that you've given so eloquently to, like, the patriarchy, the subtle energy bodies that happen during dating, and the process there. Every single one of these is almost like a fire spot on the sun. The sun is the ultimate love. I mean, look what the sun does. It's an orb in the sky that fucking lights us and grows plants and so many cool things. But there's little parts of the sun that we don't understand. Just like, there's parts of love that we don't understand, and it's always there, burning, and we're always there learning. Like, we can't create unless we know what we're creating from. So when I hear you speak, and there's so many gems that you've talked about in the past 10 minutes, like I wrote down here, authentic or projection of self. If I'm projecting my unhealed wounds, if I'm projecting the things that I don't know yet, maybe it's like you said, inherited trauma, inherited wounds. I'm not necessarily being authentic. Or am I. Am I being authentic to the level of. To the degree that I'm conscious in that moment? Am I still being authentic? Am I still taking ownership for what I know, or am I being inauthentic? Like, there's a space to explore there. Authenticity based on what I know or being inauthentic because I really feel something, but I'm just not addressing, you know, and that. And that goes to everyone's process on planet Earth.

Yeah, I think of that. Of, like, allowing what is authentic to actually be fluid. Because I think, like, for what you're saying, I think of, like, my authentic self at 22 was quite, really outspoken, a bulldozer of opinion. Yeah, still have a bit of that. And, you know, it's. I would have said that was my authentic self, and it would have been true at the time, but there was also a wounded self showing up. And so I love what you're saying because it beautifully points out to, do I have the capacity. If someone had given me that feedback, then, which I did receive, I didn't have the capacity to hold it because I felt shame about it. So then I doubled down on it, and now my capacity for shame, because that's healthy shame. And I know some people would say there's no such thing. And I would say, actually, I don't agree. I think when you learn that a better behavior is available to you, you're going to experience healthy shame. Toxic shame is something's wrong with you as opposed to. And I know guilt is I did something wrong, as Brene Brown says, and shame is I am something wrong. And I think there's this differentiation that she obviously does really beautifully too, which is the behavior is important, but it's not attached to my worth. And so if I can start to open the capacity for hearing feedback from my partners, from my friends, from my partner, it's like, how can I be better? Like, I look at my relational experience with my partner, and my friends, I've gotten tremendous feedback from friends and from Instagram followers. Oh my God. I get feedback that's wonderful all the time. Some that's not useful and other that is. And you have to learn to differentiate between useful feedback and not as Seth Godin talks beautifully about. And I see everything that my partner sees in me as an opportunity to improve as a human being, as a man. And so if I can hear her words from the lens that she believes in the best in me and can see my expanded self when I can't because I'm in myself, then when she talks to me, which doesn't mean I don't get defensive, which doesn't mean that I don't get reactive, because that's the boy. And there's still times when I'm like, that's. I don't want to, you know, But I come back to, she only wants more of me. She only believes. And this is a culture that needs to be created relationally. I'll give you a really interesting dynamic that occurred with us of like, how the patriarchy was still operating in our relationship. So when we were coming back together, she was going to come back to Canada and she was not working at the time. And I said, well, that's okay. I'll like, cover rent or whatever it was. I can't remember. But I was like, I'll pay for this. And there was a part of me that was like, if I pay for the. I could sense this unconscious toxic emotion. If I pay for this, I've got her. Like, if I. If I do this, then she's gonna owe me. Now the. The actual conscious thing was like, this will be nice and this will be right. So it wasn't.

It was like a subtle energy body that you were feeling, but I could.

Feel, yeah, this, this, like, eh, I gotcha, right? And so I expressed it to her because she felt it. She felt like. And her mind, what was really interesting. And this speaks to often the woman's experience. But it could be a human experience of like, I feel off what's wrong with me? That I don't recognize in this example, Mark's generosity or Mark's will, what's wrong with me? And I remember her saying to me, like, I have this feeling. And I was like, I'd really like to turn that around and say what's right with you? And what is the wisdom within that feeling actually telling you about me? And here's what it's telling you about me, because I recognize that that's Existing, because you told me that I'm now like, ooh, there is actually a hook being created here. Here's the hook. Let's bring it out to the surface. And by doing that, because inherently power dynamics are going to exist in organizations. They're going to exist relationally sometimes. And it's being able to bring forward the power dynamic and talk about it that removes the power and that. That by saying this exists, it no longer exists in some sense. Do you know what I mean?

Of course. There's a come from, right? A beautiful. A beautiful space that something comes from, or a space that has unconscious wounding or projections or hooks from learned behavior, societally or personally. That's the come from. The come from is the most important thing. Like, so there was a part of you that was like, I'm gonna love you, I'm gonna take care of you. I'm gonna. Cause I right now, you know, my. I have my child that's growing in my partner's belly. And so I'm carrying things and I'm supporting things. And when I check into that, I'm like, oh, it makes me want to cry because I'm like, wow, I get to be the shepherd of a life. Like, that's a clean energy source for me that I provide from, you know? But I can see how earlier in our relationship, I was like, oh, yeah, I'll pay for things. And then somehow that makes me more lovable. Somehow that makes me more attractive or just more in general, more worthy, more whole. Fill in the blank. And the one thing that I was. That I was wanting to ask you so much, man, is like, earlier I mentioned the authentic and the projection. What was it? What was the gift that separated you two, that you learned, integrated and healed, that brought you back together? What was the gift?

So our relational dynamic, for everyone listening, like, we spoke about this publicly, this is all open dialogue with permission from one another. Our relational dynamic, if you want to hear, like, her and I talking about it, we did an episode called Let It Burn on my podcast. And early in our relationship, she had had a dream that a house was burning. And the house, essentially, in that dream, the understanding was that the house was our relationship and she would have to leave. And so was about a year into our relationship. And so I remember coming to her after I went on a run and being like, I feel like I'm chasing you and convincing you to be in this, and I am not willing to do that. And she was like, here's the dream I had. That's what you're feeling. It's making me scared to want to fully show up because there's this part of me that's afraid I'm going to have to leave one day. And so we navigated this for. And I would say anyone who's avoidant often has like some sort, which is not invalidating the experience, but saying like, we often have a fear of closeness. And so I always ask people to answer the question, like when I let people love me, they. Or when I love people, they. And that's usually what we're avoiding happening. We self sabotage before that, we mate select based on trying to not get that outcome, but thereby recreating the outcome all the time. It's like, if I fear rejection, I will likely not be my fullest self. But then I'm living in a state of rejection. And then when I get rejected, I'll project my own rejection of self onto you. And so, as my friend Terry Cole says, it's a long way around the barn to get to that. Our relationship existed in this dynamic where again, a power dynamic of I'm ready, she's not, she's divorced, she's navigating stuff. I'm quote, unquote, let's put this in there, healed or healing. And she's.

That's a big air quotes.

Right, Right, right, exactly. That's what I want people to know. I'm not saying that this was true. I'm saying that I look back and go, that was a beautiful unconscious power dynamic that was created so she can never meet me. And I remember saying to her, like, you're not a problem that needs to be solved. Like, if this relationship requires you to feel broken, then it's not a relationship for you. It's not a relationship for me either, you know, because I could feel all this enmeshed energy of like, choose me, be here, stay, finally show up. Like, why aren't you 100% in? I'm in. And it got to a place where I was like, whether you stay or go, I love you, but I am no longer willing to participate in this. And she got to the same place because we, we had so much love for each other in our brains. It made sense that this should work. We're both doing the work. We're both, you know, actively participating in growth, have psychotherapy, have personal, you know, reading tons of books. We're in it. We're like, why can't we make this work? And it was like, well, maybe actually the letting go is the learning. And it was because that was her opportunity to say, I'm not broken. This feeling comes from somewhere wise that I need to leave. And I was like, you need to leave, and so do I. And I still love you. And that was the hardest thing to face of. Like, there was no animosity. There was no. It was like, this is what love sometimes does. And that we are so taught again, from a systemic lens that when relationships end their failures, it's like, what is it like to go through a relationship ending that is expansive, that is not a failure, but actually evidence of humanity, of growth? Oh, my God. That, like, mind fucks you. Because we shame people who are divorced. We shame people when their relationships end. And my. The whole birth of my work came from that space where I ended an engagement. And I felt so much pressure and so much judgment for the relationship ending where I was like, I finally chose myself. And now no one, or at least not a lot of people support that. They'd rather my relationship be together than me and me fall apart. That makes no fucking sense to me.

So that they could believe in the dream for themselves.

Right? In the myth, you know, And. And I get. There's so many dynamics to that. Because, like, a relationship lasting is good for your body if it's healthy.

Yeah.

But it's. Any relationship is. Your friendships can insulate you in that way. It doesn't have to be a romantic container. And your community should not exile you when you are choosing yourself. They should actually say, teach us. Like, when someone goes through a divorce or a breakup, people should be like, tell us what you learned. Instead of, that's bullshit. You should have fought harder. You should have. I'm like, go live a fucking mile in their shoes. Just go try it out before you get judgy, judge. And because you're afraid of your own relational outcomes, Like, I had people who are like, well, if you guys didn't last, then there's no hope for me. I'm like, don't place hope in me. Like, I'm not your fucking savior. You know, like, if anything, take the hope you put in me and put it back into your own growth. And I mean that the gift was finally, like, not. Was finally not self abandoning. Finally, like, being, like, going against all the systems again to, like, claim self and for her too. And it. What it did is it totally tore us from the codependent patterns. And then we. We rejoined. Not from a place of like, hey, I've got to make this relationship work with Kylie. Can we get back together? And the same thing for her. It Was like anyone could have shown up in front of me ready when I was ready. It just happened to be her. But I wasn't attached to it being her. And that's why in order to move forward, you have to let the old relationship die. You have to let the hope of that specific person die. And that sounds like a tall tale. It's not like I wasn't thinking, like, would we ever? But I had to live as if I'm not getting back together. But we are actually meeting moving forward. That we're meeting in an expanded versions of self. She would have walked right past me if I wasn't ready. I would have walked right past her if she wasn't ready.

Yeah.

And so we met at least, you know, I can only speak to the now in liberated love of like this. Love is such a container that you are free and I'm free. And the container of the relationship holds the complexities of both of us. And it's also not a prison. Like, I'm not making her take a vow and she's not me. Till death do us part. We're saying love is always here and the container is always an invitation. It's free. And it's free because we get to choose each other every morning. I know that she could choose anybody and she chooses me. What a beautiful thing. What an honor. And I'm like, okay, how do I make that true? And if you show up in that way, you're not taking each other for granted. It doesn't mean life doesn't happen, but it really honors the now. And it honors what a gift it is to be someone's choice. And it not to be a have to, but a choose to. And our relationships are based on have to's. As soon as you're in a relationship that you don't feel you can leave, you won't feel free to be yourself within it. And that has been a huge knowledge. But like the container won't be able to hold you if you're not your fullest self. So the container, based on old agreements must fracture in order to deepen. And it either fractures and leaves or fractures and deepens. And that's constantly occurring because she's always growing and I'm always growing. And it's like, good. The relationship should crack.

Wow. Mark so much, man. My heart is like. I actually got a little teary eyed just listening to you. Because this morning I said goodbye, my lady, Carrie, my partner. Carrie's going to see her family. She's pregnant. So she'll be Gone for two and a half weeks. And I'm like. I was feeling crying. And I told her before she got in the Uber, I was like, hey, when I see you again in three weeks, we'll both be different people, okay? And she was like, yeah, I love it because it's true.

On the upcoming Child. It's beautiful.

Thank you, man. And you hit me in my current mode of consciousness where I'm preparing to be a father so much with what you've talked about on the show. Because the child can rest. The adult is here. That's exactly what happened for you with Kai. You literally had to face yourself in the mirror. Your shadows, your bullshit, your past. I mean, every. Like a cauldron of. You had to bubble over, and you had to watch it bubble over in the mirror. And I have to ask you, we talked about this already. Don't you sense that because your work is about creating the love that God, that spirit, brought to you, an ultimate crucible in front of millions of eyes that you would have to learn from. My biggest learning curve in life is emotional and physical intelligence. Guess what? I'm struggling with emotional and physical intelligence. So don't you feel like the universe gave you this in a public crucible so that you could show people how to actually create the love?

Yeah. I mean, all of it was born from that space of turn your mess into your message. It was like I became the teacher I needed. And I've obviously had plenty of teachers, too. And I remember talking to Sherry Salata, who was the executive producer of the Oprah show and former president of O Network. And I was like, you have been exposed to all the greatest teachers in the world. What is one common thing that you know to be true? And she said to me that you don't need them. And she's like, wait, actually, you need them to remind you that you don't need them. And I feel like that's all teachers do. You know, is that I think the best teachers are students. They're not saying, this is how you do life. They're saying, this is a way. And if it's your way, great. And if it's not, great, because that teaches. If I don't trust you to walk your path or to do with information what you wish to do, then you won't trust yourself innately. In the message I'm sharing, there is a lack of self trust. This is the way. And it's like, oh, wait, but that might not be the way for me. I must have an issue. So I'll go this way. And that's what we do. Right. You know, coming back again to belonging and systems. And in my experience with this, Yeah. I remember listening to Abraham Hicks, who, I mean, how do you deny Abraham Hicks? Esther is pocket magician.

I think she's a teacher for some point and then like, you graduate to other knowings. But she's powerful. No doubt. She's powerful for people on their journey.

Yeah. And she said something that I really loved and I totally agree with you. She said, when you wish for a thing, the universe will bring everything into your experience in order for you to grow and learn and get everything out of the way to get the thing. And I always remember that, like, if you want a beautiful, healthy, expansive, loving relationship, you should expect to get triggered on the way because all the things you have unhealed that lead you to getting that thing, it doesn't just fucking show up. You don't just read a book and all of a sudden you're there. You have to live it. And so I always think of that of like everything I've experienced with Kylie. But relationally, my whole life, just life in general has been this invitation to like. And you get to decide, do you want to. There's a line between privacy and transparency. And that's important because for Kai and I, I didn't share a lot of the stuff we went through while I was going through it because the relationship itself is sacred and so there needs to be a treating of it as sacred. And so not everyone gets access to all that information till we're ready to share it. And I think that's something that people often forget in this sort of public seeking world or like public facing world, especially with social media, is like, I have the right to all your inner dialogues. And it's like, no, you don't actually. And welcome to Boundaries. This is a teaching opportunity for me and you, by the way.

Everyone, please. And I say this from my own experience, go to create the love course and get the Become a Boundaries badass. Holy shit.

Thanks, buddy.

The gems, the compressed wisdom and the actionable digestible, like, step by step by step. It's awesome. I created my Breathe program and I use the Kajabi platform, which you do. I love it. I think it's awesome. It lets people go through easily.

Simple. Yeah.

The way that you are able to take these, let's be honest, incredibly complex topics like boundaries and self sabotage and projection and inner wounds and connecting familial trauma.

Wow.

I mean, we're talking about hundreds and hundreds and Hundreds of hours of self learning and let's be real pain. We live in a world where there are so many people that have powerful marketing and they wear the right clothes, they say the right things. How does one create the trust within themselves to learn from a teacher? Because you brought up teachers teach people for the path that they're on. And, you know, the person you mentioned said that teachers really just show you their way. But in order to, like, resonate with a teacher's way, there has to be something inside of you that's calling you towards it. But there is this duality where sometimes people think that, oh, this is my savior, this person's gonna save me, they're my teacher, they can heal me, blah, blah, blah. Do you have any guidance for people that are looking to create more love in themselves? More love with their partner? Just more love in general. Is there a beacon or is there like a guiding light or a framework or a tool set inside of themselves so they know which teacher resonates with them?

Yeah, I mean, that one. I'll only give my experience because, you know, again, I want to be mindful that, like, you might have a path that's different. But I'll give you some suggestions that have worked for me. And when I think about looking to a teacher, I think often I'll get asked questions like, what should I do? Right? I get asked that all the time. Like, here's this complex human system, experience, relational experience.

Give us the top five things. Give us the top five ways to create more love.

Right? Or like, can you answer in a DM or a video and totally shape my life? And I'm like, no, because the first part is it always depends. And that's a caveat I always have to add. Second part is people need to be reminded that they are actually the wise one. Like, they're the ones who know their lives best. And I think it is an act of still looking for other people to be the authority in your life. And when people have taught you not to trust yourself, like when you say, I'm sad, and they're like, no, you're not sad. You're. You're a boy. Or you're. You shouldn't be sad. This just happened. You just fell off a slide. You know, like just little things like that are ways of invalidating and. And it's not. You know, people are always doing the best they can. You know, it's like Dr. Solomon had a great post the other day where she said there's two complexities of parents. One, they did the best they can. And two, you didn't get all your needs met. And so that's a beautiful thing to understand, right? Is like both those things can coexist. And so if you were taught not to trust yourselves, which you likely were based on all the ways that the systems shape us and are not enoughness to feed a material world and to feed all the things we do to numb ourselves from the pain of disconnection, of not trusting ourselves, is that journey back is recognizing where you actually seek authority of someone else's opinion about your own life. Which is not to say that someone can't give you guidance or offer you insight, but it's to say like, what did you already know? What was the information you already had? You know, it's like, how do you separate trauma from truth? You know, that's a real important navigation of like trauma usually comes. Or that fear based response because it doesn't always have to be trauma is like, it's a, it's a very protective fear base you feel not solid in the choice, you know. And I think it's a beautiful question to inquire about is that my trauma or my truth? And being able to be like, ooh, am I running from this because I'm afraid it's going to expand me and require more of me? Or am I actually running from this because it's not safe and it doesn't feel good? And I need to say to people, sometimes you're going to run from things that are expansive and it's going to actually not be a thing that doesn't feel good. It's going to be something that required more of you and you're going to regret it. And I'm saying learn from it because that's how you start to differentiate. That's how you separate intuition from fear. It's like you're going to say no to an opportunity or a love or a thing, or you're going to leave something and then you're going to learn you shouldn't have laughed or you shouldn't have whatever. But I'm saying if you live in that space of regret, then you're wishing to get to a past moment that you could choose differently, but you're actually missing all the moments that you could choose actively with that wisdom that you regret not imparting back then. You know, and so regret becomes this massive prison of like thinking I'd have an alternate life had I done something different. And I'm like, you're still stuck in that life because you're not choosing something different now. That love that you should have chose back there or you should have stayed or you should have had better communication, you shouldn't have been rude, you shouldn't have hurt someone, you shouldn't have hurt yourself, blah, blah, blah, blah. All those things. I have so much compassion for all those things. And how do you have to show up to honor that today? Because there's a love waiting for you. There's a you waiting for you. And I know that's again, a long way around the barn, but here we are.

I love the barn because inside of the barn is love. But there's also self sabotage and learning how my father treated women or learning how my mother treated my father. I mean, God, the well runs deep by the barn.

Like, fuck does it ever.

There's so much depth in the well by the barn. But we all want to get in the barn. We all want the love. We all want to know how to create the love. And I'm curious how you feel about this because I see it as we are born loving. This isn't a placation or a platitude on social media. When I come into the world and I breathe through my nose, which, by the way, most people don't know this, if you cover a baby's nose, they'll start choking because we're supposed to be breathing through our nose. We don't breathe through our mouth naturally. I learned this in the creation of the Breathe program. We are built to breathe in and breathe out love. So when I am not loving, what's the first thing that I do when I'm angry? When I'm judging someone, I go like this. I'll just like hold my breath. And when I'm not connected to my breath, I'm not connected to my heart. And then I'm all in my head. I'm neck up for everything. So I'm curious how you, how we create the love now with even more than when we interviewed in 2019, even more onslaught on the amygdala, on the race to the stem. I mean, dude, the level of control and the level of darkness and the level of dark energy that I feel consistently on a daily basis, it fucks me up sometimes. Like, sometimes I'm like, how do I go throughout my day with not spiritually bypassing right now, you know, like from a survival. From a survival. So. So with all that said, like, is there a guidance you could give us about navigating the current situation with all the hooks and puppeteer strings that are in play.

Well, I think we have to be very conscious of what we give our attention to. You know, like, I don't watch the news. I did listen to a great podcast from Real Rebel Wisdom and the one on you, you were talking about Daniel earlier.

Yes.

And it was on sense making in this world. And it was so beautifully done. And in part of it, I was like, how is this guy so objective and so brilliant? He did such a good. But he said, if you're enraged, then you're enrolled in something. Like you've been enrolled in a movement in an extreme. And I was like, oh, I'm enraged. I better pay attention to this. And again, that's how you receive information is like, I'm curious, not judgmental of myself, but like, ooh, I've been enrolled. What am I enrolled in? And being able to question, do I want to be enrolled in that thing? And so I think as you speak to, it's like, what information are you consuming? Are you open to hearing different opinions than the ones that you have? And it always comes back to like, I was thinking about this from an organizational perspective, but this is true of family, this is true of any human system is that the system will be invited to oscillate and come down to the lowest level of awareness. You know, if someone in a family is uber reactive and the rest of people aren't, they either have the choice to dance around that reactivity or invite the reactivity to healing. And the same is true from personal perspective. If you and I are in a relationship and I'm starting to observe my part in our dynamic and I start changing my dance, you're either invited to change your dance or I'm invited back into the old dance. And so our own journey to healing, responsibility, self is what heals the world. And I know that sounds like a meme because it's a great meme. And it's that if you go within you and you become a badass and you step fully into yourself, then you are thereby a beacon to being responsible for self. Like, if you hurt somebody and you say, I'm so sorry how I acted and I take full responsibility for myself and how I showed up, you have now modeled that behavior for other people. They might not like it because they have a lot of things to take a responsibility for, but you've modeled it. And that's like that saying that hurt people, hurt people. There's also healed people heal people. And you know, knowing that we're always healing. And I used to think like, you Peel the onion and it's like, Jesus, the onion just got bigger. I thought I was healing.

I've said before, when you peel the onion, you're gonna cry. Okay? Like, onions make you cry. So that's real.

Well, I remember saying that to Sherry, who I mentioned before, and she said, maybe you should look at it. That each layer isn't going to a core, but actually expanding you. And I was like, oh, what a different perspective. Like, each time I peel a layer of Mark, I'm actually taking up more space. Not demanding more space, but, like, just taking it up with grace. And I was like, that's a way better way of looking at it. So, yeah, that's what I'd say, man. You create the love by being it, you know, by choosing it. And that's not easy.

One of the coolest things that I know you're working on right now, and I didn't even know it before I looked on your Instagram, was this world's first emotional network. Hell, yes. I don't know anything about it. So I'm learning in real time. How did this come through? It's the Instagram is. Do you mind with a D? What's that all about, man?

Yeah, so, yeah, mine spelled M I N E apostrophe D. So it's an app that I created with my friend Aaron, who's been involved in the digital wellness space for a long time. And he actually found me through my courses and my Instagram and then was like, why are we not, like, creating a social media platform that is based on actual emotional health? I was like, shit, I want to be part of that. You know? Like, why, when you look at the data on how people feel after they use Facebook or Instagram, they always feel worse about themselves, you know? And it's like, why not be a place and democratize access to emotional and mental health? You know? And so we have 10 creators on there that all are amazing, credible teachers. And there's. It's all free right now. What we're gonna put in, we're not really. We haven't solid solidified where the paywall will sit. But our commitment is to provide free access to personal growth. So if you're listening to this and you're like, where do I start? I don't have the money. I don't. Blah, blah, blah, blah. All those things you can just go to download mind. So download m I n dashed.com and it'll bring you to whatever device you use. And it's downloaded, you have access to it. No one can say the tools aren't available. Like, oh, I don't have that. We always have reasons not to. And I'm like, find the reason to find the emotion you want to move towards. Find the transformation that you want. Find the future you that you want. Are you honoring the future you or the you that already exists? But just. It's like when they said, like, how did you carve David? It's like he was always there. I just revealed him. Same fucking truth for us.

I want to be involved with this. I mean, I'm literally just, like, exploding right now because it's so funny. It's like, duh. You ever have one of those moments where you're like, well, why didn't I think of that? Well, you did. You thought so. I'm like, because we all. In our own individual ways, Mark, and this is why I love talking with you, man, is like, you have a unique way of, like, being honest where you're actually from and what you've been through, and so much in current society, there's a veil. And it's like, well, I'm the master. I have the tools, download my stuff, do my things, all that. But the creator at the top of the triangle, they don't really share their struggle, their journey. And you do. And you don't do it in a way where it's like, well, I'm going to be strategically vulnerable right now. You just do it. And that's what I respect about you. That's what I love having conversations with you about. And I'll be honest, like, I do the same thing. I don't.

Yeah, you do.

I'm not a strategic dude. I'm strategic in business. I'm not strategic in my authenticity, you know, because, like, whatever I'm going through, I know there's some kind of treasure in it, even if my ego is bucking it like a horse in that moment. So as we say goodbye, man, take a breath now and just see this from 30,000ft. You know, you've grown this Instagram channel, you have these programs, you serve people. There's been massive learning along the way. Please go listen to Mark's story. We dove into more of Mark's story on the first podcast. This one was really just like, heart value on a red carpet.

But.

But with all you've learned now, two things, man. What do you want to create in the future with this program, with this mental health program? It's not really a program. It actually seems like it's a community. Seems like it's a living, breathing organism. So what. What is your dream? With a magic wand with that. And then secondly, how do you see wellness now after what you and Kai have been through since your last time on the show? So two questions there.

Yeah, great questions. Thanks again for having me on. I love our conversations. I love the sharing of time. And I always appreciate when someone gives time, which is a very valuable, the most valuable resource, and your voice and your platform and for what you do. I acknowledge you for that. And I really appreciate the courage by with you, which you go through the world with an open heart. So what was the first question?

First question was about this living, breathing community. The. Do you mind?

Oh, yeah. Like magic wand at first. Yeah. What is my vision? I mean, I'd say our vision is to create this space that is a loving community that you're getting value from, that you go witness. You are witnessed and you witness others. You know, so much of our pain has us feel like no one understands me and no one is like me. And so it causes us to isolate. And what is actually true is when we share or experience or just are open about it, we are witnessed. And someone else says, I experience the same thing as you. And so what we think should isolate us is actually what makes us belong. And so it's like this idea, especially in a social media world, that perfection is what we seek, but perfection is fucking bullshit. It's like imperfection is what brings us together. And so I really envision that, like, this community really coming together. What we're building out is more aspects of that right now because we have a beta out. So right now we're building out the ability to communicate with each other. As users, there's already an ability on our lives. So you can go watch live talks. Like Peloton for mental health, you go watch live talks and then they go into an on demand library. And there's literally hundreds and hundreds of talks now to choose from to go learn codependency, boundaries, all the things. And. And so I envision that just like continuing to be this space of like, we're all human. Let's do this together.

Yeah.

And God, how do I see wellness now? You know, I think I would have thought this before, but I would say it wasn't fully true, is that I see wellness as being the encompassing of what we would say is darkness or the negative or. And so that wellness from that holistic perspective is actually saying that there is wisdom in your pain, there is wisdom in your suffering, that it doesn't. There's not something wrong with you because you're sad or you suffer. There's actually something right with you and to not see those emotions as being, again, a reason for exile, but actually a reason for belonging and to say, you need to bring those in and learn from them. You know, Francis Weller has this great quote where he talks about how the soul likes to keep us close to the edge of death of our psyche, because that's where it dwells. And I really felt in the last year of my life that I met so much of the depth of my soul of, like, I got so much deeper into that. So I would say wellness is wholeness, but not the construction of it, but rather the surrendering to it and wholeness encompassing darkness. You know, we live in a very, as I said, a heroic culture. And maybe it's not about being a hero. You know, maybe it's actually about being connected and being in community and being walking in in pain and suffering with one another and walking each other out of it at the same time. I hope that makes sense. I think it does.

It made sense to my heart and my mind. Mark, thank you for coming on the show again.

Wow.

That's all I have to say is wow. This is why I love podcasting, because there's so many organic, fruitful things that get to be consumed. And when they go in, I actually like, you know, the truth. My mentor, one of my mentors, told me, like, when you hear the truth, it sticks to your soul, soul. And I feel that from you, there's certain things you say that there's a resonance in my system, and I trust in that. So everyone, please go and join this community. Do you mind Download do you mind.com.

Download mind with an E M I.

N E D downloadmind.com Mark Groves, Josh Trent, until we see you again, we are both wishing you so much love and wellness and go out there and create the love you learn how to. So we'll talk to you guys soon.