Men's Mental Health: How Society Normalizes Trauma + How To Heal

Or what are some of the ways that just human beings normalize trauma?

First of all, because they just don't understand that it's trauma. I think our parents generation normalized beating kids because obedience was the way to have healthy children.

Is our society trauma informed or is our society trauma ignorant?

We're totally trauma ignorant. And I think that we're trauma confused because there's a lot of gurus out there who are saying things about trauma that make it more confusing. And so everybody thinks that they have the correct idea when many people do not.

For a woman to make a business and a life and a media platform around supporting the mental health of men, I just don't necessarily see that too often. Why men? Why now? Why you?

It was this perfect alignment of I'm ready to help serve, and it was men who reached out to me, and I just saw that they didn't have a lot of support when it came to mental health. So I just decided that I would be that support for them.

Elise, this is really cool. I was telling you before we hit that red record, I reached out to you because I was so inspired by the content you were putting out on my ag. You know, the algorithms just sent me something that hit me in the heart, and I was floored with how many people are resonating with who you are, what you do in the world, and how you serve. So welcome to wellness and wisdom.

Thank you so much for having me here. And like I said, I feel super honored that you found me, found my content.

Well, this is actually the cool part of tech where a lot of times people, when they're in the grocery store out in life and they're mindlessly scrolling, Instagram will send them stuff that keeps them either in fear or keeps them disempowered. But it was cool because I got sent your content at a time when where I was actually personally going through a learning lesson about the polarity in myself. And I think a lot of the women, and especially the men that listen to the show and that are part of this movement of, like, how do we live our life? Well, we have to look at. We get to look at mental health. And there's a lot of subjects out there that I've heard you speak of and also that are on your ig around men's mental health. And there was this phrase that we've talked about on the show a little bit, but I wanted to use this as a jumping off point. Is our society trauma informed, or is our society trauma ignorant?

Let's start there I think we're totally trauma ignorant and I think that we're trauma confused because there's a lot of gurus out there who are saying things about trauma that make it more confusing, just like there's a lot out there about narcissism that makes it more confusing. And so everybody thinks that they have the correct idea when many people do not.

And they don't because they simply do not know that they don't know, like an unconscious incompetence, the dark spot in the dark spot that even if they knew wasn't there, they still wouldn't know that it wasn't there. And so I wonder where in your life did you open your eyes and have your explosion of consciousness where you said, okay, I'm really going to focus on being trauma informed and helping men because it's kind of rare. It's not totally rare, but for a woman to make a business and a life and a media platform around supporting the mental health of men, I just don't necessarily see that too often. There's a lot of men's coaches out there, like, why men? Why now? Why you?

Yeah, so that's a beautiful question because what you just said was the first question that you kind of asked within that was, at what point in time did you have this awakening essentially that you wanted to be trauma informed and then that you wanted to help men comes a little bit after that. Right? Because I didn't know what I didn't know until I was like 25 and I kept hitting these relationship stumps where I was like, I've done all I can do as far as self help books and I just can't keep repeating these same cycles. I need a third party. So that's when I got a therapist. And that's when I told her things about my childhood that for me growing up were perfectly normal. And then as I was telling them to her, realizing, oh, these impacted my life in a way that I didn't understand was actually very negative and it actually wasn't normal in a healthy family. And so coming to those own realizations of my own life and then diving into my own courses on trauma therapy and figuring that out, that's what led me into, okay, now that I figured this out in a scientific way, I want to help others. And it was only men who reached out to me once I started posting content. So it wasn't necessarily my goal of like, I want to help men. It was this perfect, this perfect alignment of I'm ready to help serve in the way that I need to. And it was men who reached out to me and then I said, I just saw that they didn't have a lot of support when it came to mental health. So I just decided that I would be that support for them.

Do you identify as a woman who shifts more towards her, her feminine? Obviously the balance is in both of us. Right. Like we have masculine and feminine, both of us, and it's non gender specific. It can be in any style of relationship. Do you find that you in your own life have more of a polarity towards relaxing into the feminine being in your feminine or no?

I want to know why you're asking me this.

The reason I'm asking. Well, the reason, the reason I'm asking is because I wonder, my follow up question is, do you feel that men feel that safety from that softness because of who you are with the academia you have and with the skill set you have, do you feel like there's a trustworthiness on an energetic level and that's why men are reaching out to you? In other words, if they didn't learn it from their mom, maybe they can learn it from another woman?

I think, I think in one level, like it's two part for me. Right. Because when you ask that, I have operated most of my life out of my masculine, out of a very survival instinct. And I think it's doing that that helped me be able to understand where men were coming from, be able to understand how men like to learn how they receive things. And then it was leaning into the feminine that allowed them to. So they feel safety from the masculine, like, oh, she gets it. But then the feminine, like you said, if they didn't have a supportive female, like, maybe she can help me.

Yeah. The reason I asked you that is because there is an energetic bond between client and coach. Right. And that energetic bond with healthy boundaries. And I'm sure we're going to unpack boundaries and attachment styles and go deeper into trauma as we get into the meat of the conversation. But I think about every therapist I've ever had, even in couples therapy with my partner Kerry, Michelle, and all the transitions we've had with the birth of our son. And now she's pregnant again. We've gathered, I guess you could say the scaffolding to support us and me as a man, to support me in constantly cleaning out the head trash. And that comes with being a part of modernity. And so I'm curious for you, like, once you started to see how your family had normalized the trauma and how you had Been really potentially what I heard from you, and correct me if I'm wrong, leaning into the masculine so that you could get shit done and handle life. At what point was there a blossoming of the rose? At what point was there a blossoming of the more balanced self?

To be honest, probably probably not even until like two years after I did coaching, maybe within just like the last year or so that I was able to actually start changing my mentality that you don't have to work so hard to earn everything in your life that you can start receiving, that you can start attracting, that you can make money from anything. Right? It's like a whole entire identity shift that you have to do. And now I feel like I play the roles pretty well where I can switch back and forth. But like in podcasts, right? Like I'm in my masculine because, like, I'm doing a job and I'm getting it done and it's different than being in a date. And so I feel lucky now that I can kind of identify those two. But it's a practice. It really is still a practice.

I want to go back. How do you think or what are some of the ways that just human beings normalize trauma? What does that look like in our society?

They normalize it, first of all, because they just don't understand that it's trauma. Right? I think our parents generation normalized beating kids because obedience was the way to have healthy children. And so everybody got their ass beat and nobody thought it was traumatic. But it's traumatic to get beat by your parents, right? So that's even just one example that I'm sure everybody can, you know, kind of relate to or. Or the fact that fathers wouldn't show emotion to their sons because they didn't want them to be weak and they just kind of provided for them and they thought that that was the best way to raise their sons. But then their sons grew up emotionally distant and not not knowing how to communicate their needs or their feelings to their partner even, because it was just never a thing.

You yourself, from what I've read in your site, and honestly just feeling your essence too now and just that we're for. For all you guys, we're literally just meeting right now. We've never communicated. Like this is one of the most, I guess you could say organic podcasts, there's no pre planning. I think we traded like one email. You said in media that you struggled yourself with mental health, health issues and you didn't understand, quote, why. But then as you got into the trauma Therapy and the relationship science and the neuroscience and the nlp. Like, once you, and I believe one of the places I'm looking at my notes here, one of the places was the Arizona Trauma Institute, which I hadn't heard about before. I was, I was looking at your work. So as you started diving into the deepest, darkest parts of self, at what point did you feel like you could really be there for others? Like, how much work did you have to do on self before you could really be a mirror for others?

Yeah, so, I mean, I've been doing self help work. I've always been involved in self help, so that was like a lifelong commitment. But when it came to like trauma and relationship science and LP learning, like the actual processes and logic and steps to it, I probably did that for like a few years before I felt like, because I was doing it for myself, I, I wasn't thinking, oh, I'm going to make this a career. I was just like, I need to figure this out. I need to like, really get my life straight so I can have healthy relationships, so I can be a, a boss and a businesswoman and all these things. And then like, once it actually clicked for me, like maybe two and a half years in, and I was in a relationship, putting these things into practice and seeing how they worked, that's when it was like, oh my God, like, I can save people so much time. I've been doing this for therapy for like two years, and I've learned more in the last few months than I did in, in this whole time doing this. So that's kind of like when it clicked.

And there's probably multiple clicks, I'm sure. You know, like one, one click is like, I can help other people. And then there's probably more multiple clicks where you realize that the things that helped you may or may not always help men. Right? Because men, we, we look at life through such a different lens. I, I remember we had Alison Armstrong on the show just, you know, a couple weeks ago and, and she was actually talking about, like, especially during a woman's cycle, the brain is bathed in 25% more estrogen than it normally is. But men, we do very good at one task at a time. And science and research shows that women are just better multitaskers. I don't know if it's because of their ability to watch children or, you know, that nurture nature concept. How do you think this plays out with the men that are obviously compelled? It's what created your career. Compelled to your content, compelled to what you do. Do you ever go into the biology of the brain and do you teach people about the core differentiations between men and women on a physiological, biological level?

I don't teach them that because it's not necessary for what they need to learn. I go by, like, what is. What is the most impact for the least amount of effort. Because if someone is coming in and they need help and they're, you know, they're traumatized or they just, like, want to figure things out, you want to teach them just enough so they understand, but not so much they get overwhelmed. Like, it's necessary for me to know that. But how necessary is it for them to know that? Because it's kind of like a heady thing, right?

I mean, you want to get them out of their head, not more into their head.

Exactly. Like, when a man comes into this thing, he's usually, like, on his last legs. Men don't like to ask for help. So they see my content, they resonate with. They trust me enough to say, like, hey, I feel like you can help me get out of this. And the last thing that they want is to, like, understand a whole entire psychology book about what they need to do. They just. They just need a simple action item to get out of the. Their head.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I think about the way that I have. I was born and my mom has manic bipolar disease. She. Not. She. She doesn't. She doesn't own that. It's just something that she has. It's something that occupies her. And I think that's a really big piece. When we look at nl, I went through a training with Scott Jackson, an NLP course around money and finance, and we talked about the subconscious barrier between, you know, the stories that we believe about others and the stories we believe about ourselves. And most importantly, you did an IG on this. The way that we give and receive, We've learned to give and receive love from our mother. And this really shapes men. Like, I believe you said that the way a man gives and receives love is taught to a subconscious mind by his mother. And so he may attract a partner that just perpetuates that really dynamic that's unhealthy, that wants to be healed, but he doesn't even know it. Can you. Can you expand that a little bit?

Yeah. So men and women, as much as we like to, men mesh these together in this generation. They provide different roles when it comes to child rearing. And they're both very important. A mother is a nurturer. A mother helps her children Understand their emotions, how to regulate their emotions. But if she herself does not understand her emotions, does not know how to regulate her emotions, she's not going to attune to the child's needs as well, their emotional needs. And he will feel disconnected. He will feel like he needs to earn love. Because children are drawn to their biological parents and to earn love from them. Right? Because that's how they survive. So you grow into an adult still seeking to earn that love. And if you can't get it from your mother, you will subconsciously seek it out from a partner. And that means you might take on a project partner so that you can fulfill that desire that was never completed as a child.

How exactly does that manifest? What does that look like?

Well, I mean, like, let's say your mother was there for you, like, took you to sports and provided a roof over your head, but like, never told you she loved you, never really gave you hugs, never listened to your problems. You might think, okay, I had a great childhood. My parents were always there, they were always supportive. But then you get with an emotionally distant partner who never really asks you anything more surface level than how was your day? Right? You're not talking about hopes, you're not talking about dreams. You're, you know, she's not there really comforting you. She might even reject your emotion if you have it. She might be like, scoffing at it or want to avoid it or say, like, let's not talk about that. Right? So it never really gets very intimate. And you will seek out that partner because you deeply desire that intimacy, deeply desire someone to see you, but you're perpetuating the cycle because that's all you know.

Well, then what is the wisdom in the perpetuation? For example, if, if a man unconsciously seeks out a very similar dynamic, although unhealthy and really, you know, degrading to the mind and the mental health, what is the wisdom that is wanting to be seen or to be experienced in that man's life as he perpetuates this unhealthy dynamic?

Yeah, these are always small awakenings that we have because eventually he gets to a point where he realizes, this is not what I want. Something is off here. I'm desiring something more. Like, we will perpetuate the same survival mechanisms from childhood until something breaks, right? Until something no longer has us surviving anymore, quote, unquote. And the wisdom comes from that realization, comes from the awakening and, and the realization that, like, we can no longer do what we've always done to get to this point, we need to do something different to get to a new point.

And the new point being where you don't have to keep perpetuating the unhealed wound. There's a pathway to get there. That ain't a light switch, Elise. It's not like somebody can just come to you and be like, hey, by Friday I need to be healed. Is that it? Can you pencil me in? Like, there's a process to get there. So what does that arc of, of awareness look like for man to be experiencing these pieces of an unhealed, I guess, relationship dynamic with his mother and also for the women that are here with us. How can women recognize when a man is coming to them and what can they learn about themselves? It's kind of a two part question.

Yeah. So to address that kind of in backwards fashion, if you are partnered with someone who is struggling with mother, father wound, which mostly all of us will, it's very rare, very rare that anybody won't have a mother or father wound. It's just how aware is that person that they have a mother or father wound and how extreme is it? Right. If you have awareness, both of you, you can work through anything, but just know that whoever you're partnered with, you are a perfect match to them in some way, shape or form. So a lot of people like to point fingers and say that my partner is so screwed up, I'm just trying to help them or, you know, how do I help them do this? Well, maybe you trying to help them is the reason why you guys are a match in the first place. Because you're probably trying to fix someone who's broken. Right. Your job is not to fix your partner. Your job is to be a healthy person yourself and be a support system for your partner and allow them to rise up to the occasion. Right. So it's just a funny dynamic because usually we, we look at our partner and be like, man, they're like really messed up, but you are a match for them in some way. So self reflection time. What, what is within me that is drawn to this person who is also flawed?

I love that you said allow them to rise to the occasion. That's a big one. I think a lot of times, and I'm sure it works both ways where. Oh, I know it's. If they would just act this way. I mean, typically it's more, I guess you would say women trying to change men. And David Data talks about three stages of men, three stages of women, wherein, you know, the first phase, the young girl just wants to get with the bad boy that she can change. And then, and then there's like, for the men, there's like women that want to fix or men that want to fix women because that's what they did with their mom. And I've had to be very aware of that and like the, the tendency for me to seek out situation where I could be the savior. And so in my current relationship, like the, the real core, I guess you could say, understanding. And the real work is that she does her individual work on her own, I do my individual work on my own. And then we come together and we share resources and wisdom in the middle as it relates to the, to the sacred container, to us. But I'm wondering why or maybe how that appeared for you because you said what drove you to the work was your own pain, was your own understandings of self and of men that you were dating. Like, what can you share with us? Like, what was the pain? And then what was the gift in that?

I mean, it's just so. I think, I always think this is really funny and ironic because I had like a very dysfunctional childhood and like out of all the hard things that have happened in my life, relationships always seem to be the most painful thing. Like you would think that that's not the most painful thing, but for me it was. And so my big lesson and big journey in life has always been how do I give and receive love in a healthy way? If you don't know it, that journey is hard and you find yourself in, in relationships and then you have to kind of analyze, where am I abandoning self in order to make this work. My, my pain was trying to fit square pegs into round holes because I, I wanted to be a perfect person that no one could abandon and no one could say that I wasn't lovable, right? So I would do everything for that person and I would change myself and I wasn't happy. And I was like the nice guy in the relationship, right? Like, I would subconsciously like, you know, do all these things because I wanted this love and attention, but I didn't know actually what I was looking for. So it's like total self awareness and self, self awakening of like, you have needs, you need to ask for them, can they fulfill on them or not? Right? And you don't need to do all these things to earn the love, right? You find people who are capable of loving you and if not, you have to have strength to move on. So in a way, even though men and women do process things differently and do go through things differently. There are some fundamental things that just learning about myself do apply to men because a lot of men go through that same process.

There was obviously something though that in one maybe particular painful relationship we all have that one, right? I mean the Native Americans call it the great white buffalo, the one that got away. Like we all have those situations where we get cut real deep and there can be an experience where we either close our heart as men or we go on a rampage and we have a bunch of unconscious sex which is essentially another form of closing the heart and being unconscious. Did you have a great White buffalo experience? Did you have a relationship that cut you to the bone so much that you knew the only way out was through?

Yeah, I mean that relationship that ended when I was 25, it was very short lived, but it was very like intense, emotional. Like within the first month I felt like loved more. They were like you're the most beautiful woman in the world. And like 10, you know, like just, just a love that like it was more of like I didn't know if it was a good fit but it was so, you know, intoxicating to feel that. And when it started to go downhill, like I felt them becoming distant and as the more I tried to grab onto the distance and the more they would run away. And they ended up ghosting me out of the relationship. Like because we were nomadic and I was in a different country. And then all of a sudden like a month went by, we were supposed to be on a break and I saw dates on their calendar, we worked at the same place and I was like finally messaged them, I'm like are we over? And they're like we've been done. And I was like, you weren't going to tell me this, right? And so it was kind of like that pain of like thinking I could be with this person forever and then having it end like that. I was like something needs to change in my life where I can't just be so addicted to these people. I wasn't asking for my needs to be met. And then I was ending up getting so hurt by this. I just didn't want to be that person anymore.

Why do you think men are afraid to ask for what they need? Call it the nice guy syndrome. Gretchen Rubin has the four personality types and she says that that men who are obligers, they eventually because of frustration and resentment, they frickin have a rampage. It's called the Obliger rebellion where being a nice guy for too long and the reason I'M thinking of this is because, you know, you shared authentically about, like, you not having boundaries and you not asking for what you needed. It applies to nice guys and women are repulsed by nice guys. That's where the phrase nice guys finish last. It's not that women don't like nice men. I just feel like, and I'm curious how you feel women want kind men, women don't want nice men.

Well, they don't want men who are secretly doing so many things for them just so that they can get something in return. It's an energetic feeling. You can be a kind man. You can be a good man and have boundaries. And you can, you can be like a nice guy and have boundaries. And like, no one's going to look down on you for it because they see the self respect, the quote unquote, nice guys who finish last or from the book, no more Mr. Nice Guy. They don't have self respect. They are doing things in order to earn things. And it's a manipulation that people can see through. And that's why women, like you said, are repulsed, quote unquote, by nice guys because they're not actually nice.

How so? What do you mean? They're not actually nice because they're just.

Doing things to earn. It's a subconscious, like, oh, I'm going to take you out on this date. But then they're expecting to get a kiss or get a one night stand. It's these subconscious expectations like, oh, I did all this for you and you can't do this for me, or I'm such a nice guy, why don't you want to go out with me? Why don't you like me? It's kind of like using it against you that I'm so nice. You, you owe me something, right? But a good man, a kind man, he's. He's going to do something for you because he wants to. And he has boundaries. So then he's not overexerting himself. So he can't, he's not going to use it against you because he has those boundaries.

Wow. Okay. Mind expansion moment. So think about all the ways in which there's the narrative right now, and especially on ig, it's kind of like you can either go get helped on IG or you can get harmed, honestly, from looking at content. So with all the things that you put out and also the conversations. I see you having conversations with. I believe her name is Jediyah. Did you have a conversation with her from the valuetainment channel or no.

Perhaps I have a lot of different conversations.

The reason I'm asking that is because there is this narrative right now that is unfortunate, and it is from a woman's perspective. In the fifth wave element, I am the woman, I am the prize. Men bow down. I am the 10 out of 10 do everything for me. And so, you know, men that are wounded, they might see that and be like, oh, the only way I'm going to get a solid woman is by being the nice guy. But paradoxically, that narrative of fifth wave feminism, it actually is completely repelled by the fact that men are nice. Do you see the paradox in this?

Yes. And like you said, sometimes Instagram can hurt and sometimes it can help. And it's like the concept and the idea, it's like your heart's in the right place, right? Like, a woman should see herself as a prize and as 10 out of 10, and like, she's working on herself. But it excludes the fact that men should also see themselves that way and that, you know, trophies and prizes go together, right? Like winners, winners and prizes go together. So the man needs to be winner and the woman needs to be a winner. Like, no one should think of themselves as, like, I'm the loser trying to get my prize. And that's kind of like what the extreme feminism does is it makes men feel like they're not good enough and they need to earn the love of the woman who is a 10 out of 10. And men are scumbags. And it's just. It's really ridiculous. So then we have the totally opposite, where men are like, women aren't, and, like, just use them until you know they're old enough and then replace them with another 26 year old. And we just need to, like, chill and, like, realize that all that stuff is just in the extremes.

I love that you said we just need to chill because there's actually so much more there. When you say we just need to chill, don't you mean that behind that is we actually need to have emotional regulation, emotional intelligence, and an understanding of trauma and being trauma informed so that we. We don't project our wounding and our closed hearts onto our partner or. Or next partner?

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. And you can't do that when you're. Because both of those extremes. And I love how you're bringing up the trauma and being trauma informed. Both of those extremes are in survival mode, right? Both. Both parties are just doing what they know best, how to survive. But we don't want to just survive our entire lives. We want to thrive, we want to be in a place of relaxation, of peace. Peace is found in the middle, not in the extreme.

That almost reminds me of the dao, right? Have you ever studied the dao? I'm sure you have, and a big piece for me is the Great Dao loves and nourishes all things, but it doesn't lord it over them. The dao always seeks low in high, low pressure or sodium, potassium. In physiology, there's a balance where there's no chaos or where there's peace in the center. But sometimes in relationship and even maybe the one with ourselves. Elise, we, myself as a man and all the women listening. We have to go so deep into the uncomfortable, icky shit to really see how we've been not so loving, not so kind, and really projecting our unhealed bullshit onto our partners. Do you see that play out with the men that are coming to you? And is that maybe one of the first things that you address? Where do you address that portion of the psyche in your work? I hope you're living this episode as much as I am. Quick break to talk about the fact that we all require more energy nowadays. I know I do. But when it comes to generating energy, our body is a power plant. But if you put too much gasoline inside of a power plant, otherwise known as caffeine, that power plant will eventually melt down or even burn out, which is why people experience burnout. Two, three, four cups of coffee in a day. If you yourself have been experiencing burnout lately, look no further than exogenous ketones. This is a total radical substitute for any kind of stimulant or caffeine. You probably heard about ketones for years now, and me talk about the benefits of them on podcasts. But the hidden dark secret of ketones is that the majority of products out there are not. Vested in deep science in steps, my friends and our podcast partner over at hvmn, otherwise known as Health via Modern Nutrition. Of course, I look to nature for all the solutions for the majority of my energy issues, right? Like fixing my circadian rhythm and optimizing my sleep and stress and food. But what if you're already doing all those things and you're still feeling sluggish and tired? What do you do? Well, this is the magic of exogenous ketones. They're a godsend. They mimic the exact same physiological benefits that we get when we fast, which is well known by all, to optimize brain function, increase metabolism, and also signal appetite suppression. But we do it all without starving and this is the biggest key, the most radical benefit that I'm excited to tell you about right now is that these ketones that HVMN makes, they're actually affordable and they're giving you a 20% off discount. The already discounted drinkable ketone IQ shots, either in the little bottles or the big bottle. I have the big bottle in my size studio here. However you like them, just use the Code Josh. That's Code Josh over on the website hvmn or just head to joshtrant.com hvmn use code josh to get 20% off so you can get some vitality with something that really only nature gives you when you're fasting. But you can truly, and I say truly, biohack with these exogenous ketones to get everything a biohacker or a health advocate could ever dream of. Joshtrend.com HVMN use code Josh to save 20% off.

Yeah, always. Always. That's one of the first things we address, right? Extreme accountability. Because we can't do anything about how others are treating us necessarily. All we can do is, is control how we respond and how we've been attracted to this and how we might have even created it or instigated it. And when we come to that, like total self acceptance that I may not be so nice, I might have some toxic traits of my own, I might be a little bit, you know, angry or, you know, extreme. If you can understand that, then you can start to find balance within yourself. And once you find balance within yourself, you can start to attract that balance.

But when you say balance, what do you mean? Because that's kind of a shifty target.

Balance, I guess, emotional self regulation and.

A lot of that self regulation, if it's not modeled correctly, it's going to be kind of hard for us to, to live it out like we. In other words, if we don't have parents that are in this work that are having these conversations like we're having, which I would assume I don't have the data to back it up or anything, but I would assume it's more rare than not, then it's up to us, it's up to our soul to really find this regulation, this. I want to go back to the trauma informed conversation because a lot of what I believe you studied and what you've been learning through client work at the Arizona Trauma Institute. How did you find that institute and when did you start to know that you resonated with the teachings there?

Yeah, so I mean, I'VE done all the classes online. So it was through my own research I saw it pop up like family trauma therapy training because I was doing like counseling certifications and things like that. So that popped up. And once I just started hearing how a child could be affected by a parent's behaviors, it immediately just resonated with me because, you know, I would think about my own parents and how they reacted to certain situations. So you're totally right that if we don't have a healthy model, it's, it's impossible to create it by self because we are born into relationship, we're not born self sufficient. So we rely on relationships from the time that we're born to the time that we die to, to function healthily. And that's why it's so important to have. At times you might need a coach or a therapist because they essentially will have the tools to like, maybe I'm not telling you right now that I'm regulating myself, but you're subconsciously picking up on the fact that I'm not like hypersensitive or breathing deeply or sorry, breathing erratically. Right. You get co regulation from people who have the tools.

It's kind of a shifty term, at least in my world and probably in yours. I assume this, this phrase trauma informed because obviously like the antonym of informed would be ignorance. What does it truly mean to be trauma informed?

I don't know if I have a perfect definition for that, but from what I've done, I mean, I'm really trauma, I'm trauma therapy trained. So for me it's understanding the tools that you need to heal from trauma, at least at a physiological, physiological standpoint. I'm, I acknowledge that there are different forms and methods like emdr, things like that. But for me, getting back to a place of calm in your physiology, learning how to relax the body, getting in touch with yourself, and understanding like the cause and effect of not being regulated is what I would deem as my trauma informed training.

Yeah, but the definition, that's why I was curious how you'd feel because some people think of being trauma informed as being a breathwork practitioner that can take somebody through catharsis, you know, and I found that, you know, all the students in our BREATHE program, we have over a thousand students in our Breathe, Breath and Wellness program. And a lot of the students have actually done these deep cathartic journeys and they've hurt themselves actually more than they've helped themselves. And so do you actually take clients through a physiological process or is it mostly the cadence of breath and communication and knowledge that you're sharing.

I mean I teach my clients how to get in touch with their physiology for sure and take them through a process. But I've taken a trauma informed therapy. I've taken trauma informed therapy courses. Right. It's different than taking a breath work class or a yoga class. You, I think you need to be trained specifically in trauma informed training. It's, it's a completely different set of tools because it also incorporates the psychology in there as well.

Because many men as you've talked about are silenced. Their, their emotions are fairly silenced. And I felt this, I remember in football in high school, my coach would be like, throw some dirt on it and get back out there. Like that was, that was literally like an accepted phrase. And I look back on that with laughter because it's like it's actually not, it's not good. That's not a healthy thing to say to a 16 year old kid in high school. And I think about how that played out and I saw it in my, my own father's life where his father had kind of the same, I guess you could say, edge to him. Now there's a healthy masculine where we are in touch with the feminine part of ourself. We're able to give and receive love. We've done our work to heal. And then there's also a really, in true paradox is a really important part of masculinity that's about completing and getting it done and building something. So when men come to you and there's this maybe fractured essence of what it truly means to be balanced, to circle back on what you said earlier. What is the starting place for a man to be truly balanced in the way that he truly lives in his masculine and in his feminine? How do you begin that conversation and, and that process?

We begin it by incorporating more of them into their own lives. Because usually if a man is coming to me and he's feeling out of balance, it's because he's doing all of these things. And as much as he tries to be in control, it's making him out of. Because he is never completing actually anything or he never feels totally present or he never feels like he has any time for himself. Men need time for themselves just like women need time for themselves to understand where their physiology is at, to understand where their feelings are actually living to connect with themselves, to connect with their dreams, with their mission, with their, with their passion that is not dedicated to doing something for someone else. So we kind of start by Just rededicating time back to you. And that might seem like so simple, but like I said, do the least amount of effort with the most amount of impact because it helps you understand how to set boundaries, it helps you learn how to prioritize your time, it helps you how to prioritize yourself, it helps you learn to say no to things that are not you. Right, so there's a lot of different things that go into that.

Because saying no can sometimes be terrifying. Like to truly say no to someone or something. Why is that? Why? Why is saying no to something that maybe your physiology might want to say yes to, but your heart is screaming no?

Well, if you've never done it before and you've associated saying yes to earning love or earning success, earning money, then saying no to it is like saying no to your survival. So it's terrifying because you have to readapt to a new term, new form of safety for your physiology.

Is there a through line when it comes to the men that seek you out and also just the men whose emotions have been dampened by their upbringing? Is there a through line of like one, two or three ways of being that are harming most men?

Well, I think the number one thing that's harming most men is their inability to express. Because the inability to express is like the denial of self. The denial of self, you know, makes, makes machines out of men. It doesn't make humans out of men, it doesn't make lovers out of men, it doesn't make creative men. And then they come to you in the quote unquote midlife crisis, which is really just a man's awakening to the fact that he's never lived a day of his life for himself and he has to find himself all over again. And it's because of the societal expectation and pressure that men need to be machines and not humans. So I think I would say that's the most damaging thing. And men play into it. They don't want to express their emotions because they have bought into the idea that they are weak with it. So it's very hard to break that stigma and that self shame and that self judgment.

They also have to be with a partner that can receive their emotion, that can receive their expression. Can you talk about that dynamic? What if a man's in a partnership where the woman just isn't, quite frankly, prepared to receive that man's intensity, sadness because of her own trauma that hasn't been fully dealt with?

Well, yeah, they're usually not with the right partner because how are you going to align with a partner that's open and available to emotions. If you're not, you're going to match someone who is also avoidant, who is also shut down, who is also blocking a lot of things. So the second that you start to change the rules of that container, only if your partner is open minded and adaptive. Right. Are they going to be willing to, to listen to that. Because if they're not, you know, all you're doing is reflecting upon them, the own work that they need to do and they're not going to like it.

That's the truth. That's it right there. And it goes both ways too. Like, we're having conversation about men for men, but on the other side for the ladies with us. I know this exists too, because quite frankly, like, I feel at times not to toot my own horn, like I feel like my conversations and my viewpoint and this platform and our podcast, it's rare in the massive, I guess you could say Omni World. In the Omni World, this conversation is rare. In our world, it's every day like you have conversations like this. I'm sure, like all the time, you know, that this is like your life, this is your work. So this dynamic between I'm realizing that something must give, something pain has taught me that something must change. If I'm in a dynamic, and this is male or female, where I then start exhibiting the behaviors of that new container, like you mentioned, in that new container, the partner has to lovingly drop their walls. The partner has to lovingly accept this new version of the partner that they committed to based on their woundings that needed to be healed, I find that utterly fascinating and what a paradox we live in when it comes to this dance.

Yeah. And I'm just going to be totally honest. Usually it doesn't work because if you are on a journey to becoming a healed person and the other person refuses, you know, and you can't even blame them because they married into a container where they didn't have to address their trauma. They married into a container where everything was fine. Being on the surface where everything, you know, is as it is. And this is also something that I wanted to say going back to the beginning, when we're kind of talking a little bit about the codependency of I need to save you or I'm going to stick around because now I'm healing and you can heal too. And I see your potential. Sometimes when we stay in those relationships despite our own needs not getting met. Right. Because we're Compromising our needs because we're being so understanding of the other person. Well, they're going through a hard time. They're really trying to figure out this trauma stuff. So, like, it's okay if they don't call me, or it's okay if they, you know, aren't able to hug me. You do that and you do that, and you do that. You don't realize that you are supporting the most toxic. You're allowing the most toxic parts of your partner to thrive because you are not giving them any incentive to change because they know that you're going to be there whether they change or not.

So then how do you inspire them to change without being attached to that change?

Well, usually if you're trying to fix your partner, you are neglecting some of your own needs. And so the way that you inspire. And it's not necessarily about inspiring them to change, it's about doing what you need to do for yourself and seeing if. If they can be a good match for you still. Right. Because some partners just aren't going to be a good match anymore once you do the work. And you have to be strong enough to say, listen, like, I'm going this direction. And there are some things now that I have to change about this container. Like, my boundaries need to change or, I need some more of this from you. You know, is this possible? Are they willing to work on it? And if they're not, you have to be willing to say, okay, this. This is no longer a container that aligns with me. Because when you stay in a container that aligns with you, you find somebody else whose container also aligns with you. And you guys don't need to compromise in order to work with each other anymore.

But there's a healthy level. I want to play advocate here. On the other side, there's a healthy level of compromise in relationship. Like, relationship is truly two beings intimately into me, you see, relating to one another. So if there was a carbon copy of Elise, you probably wouldn't be magnetized to date her anyways because you wouldn't learn anything about yourself. So there's. There's a juxtaposition between standing for healthy boundaries. And this is really good, like being who you are and serving yourself and your own growth and simultaneously being there for the growth of your partner.

Yeah, well, absolutely. And so it's. It's the balance of, like, are both partners capable and willing to compromise and change? Right. Because also, this is something I'm really glad that you pointed out. You might have boundaries that are actually ultimatums and you don't understand that and your partner reflects back to you. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Like that's some bullshit. And are you self aware enough to realize they might have a point or are you just going to keep jumping from partner to partner hoping that someone is just going to only adapt to the things that only you want. Because at that point you are also continuing to ignore the things that you need to work on about yourself.

So then what's the differentiation between a boundary and an ultimatum?

A boundary says. So this is really great that you asked is I just found a really great video on this last night. An ultimatum is like, if you don't do this, I'm leaving the relationship. Right? A boundary is if you keep doing this, I'm gonna have to, you know, go home tonight and I won't be able to re engage in this conversation until we can find a compromise. Right? It allows space for negotiation. It's not giving a hard start and stop. It's not trying to control your partner. Some people use ultimatums and say that they're boundaries because they're trying to control their partner. Like you can't do this to me anymore. Or you know, you need to stop doing this. You know, like it's a command.

That's fascinating. Let's go a little, let's go one layer deeper on that. So on one side there's the ultimatum, which almost feels more like a sword, like a cutting, like you either do this for me or fuck you, I'm out. Then on the other side of that, there's the softer boundary. It almost feels like it's more of like a, like a contemporary silk sheet that you'll know when you're rubbing against it. You'll know when you're at a boundary because you'll receive that stimuli, that input. But for some people, go deeper into the confusion about why people sometimes feel that an ultimatum is a boundary and vice versa.

You think that they feel it's a boundary because that's the way that our parents mirrored it to us, right? You, you go, why do I have to do this? And your dad says, because I'm the dad. And I said so it's like, and maybe that's not a good example of a boundary, but it's a good example of how we learn things, right? It's, it's black and white. It's right or wrong, it's this or that. And so if we're not mirrored healthy boundaries where we gotta say, or we got a true understanding, you know, a Boundary is kind of like you're going down the road and you see a warning sign that says you gotta go 10 miles per hour around this curve. Like, you know, if I go faster than that, I am at risk for danger. That's, it's like a warning sign. A boundary is an invitation of how can I connect with my partner in a healthy way. Or, you know, it's kind of like the rules of engagement for yourself. Whereas an ultimatum is like, it's just, it's a command, it's a, it's a do or die type of thing.

What is needed, what is freaking needed right now? And it's not just the same, like, long, drawn out, masculine, feminine conversation. It's. It's really about. I mean, I'll just say this for me, it feels like in my world of media, it's been over eight years now. There has been this narrative that I cannot turn the cheek to. And it is this hardcore fifth wave feminism narrative and it is infecting the minds of young women. Specific. You could call it woke culture, you could call it woke mentality. But this, like, you don't need a man. Men are scum. Focus on your career, Children will make your body fat and then you won't be sexy like this. It's just this weird broken glass that unfortunately a lot of 20 and early 30 year old women are being forced to look at and they're being forced to look at it by whom? I'm just trying to figure out like, what is the origin of this narrative? Is it, is it the Rothschilds that, that brought it in when they brought in education to rip children out of the home? Like, what, what's the origin of this broken glass that women are hating men through? It's very. It's unsettling.

Yeah. I have no idea what the origin is, but it is, it's just like what feeds into the minds of men that they shouldn't express themselves. And we're just. It's such polarities. I think it's all part of population control to be hon like that. I think that's what Covid was trying to do. So they didn't have to pay for people's Social Security because we're already all in debt, like, for sure. And like. But you think about how both sexes are driven to kind of hate each other, but from the beginning of time, we're driven to be drawn towards relationship. And at the end of the day, people want relationship, they want love. So then you get to this point where then you're older and you're a female and you're like, holy crap, I'm like 40 years old and I have all these degrees and I have this career and. But I'm freaking alone. And then the dudes are feeling the same way and they don't know how to connect with each other, and then they feel like, oh, my God, I. I literally missed the mark because I bought into all this propaganda my whole life. And, like, I literally just realized within the last year, like I, I said I did, I never wanted to have children. Like, I wanted kind of like a life partner, but I was in the masculine and, and the, the theme of, like, I've got all this covered by myself. And then I just literally, like, had this total awakening during the summer of, like, no, I think I really don't care about being so super mega rich anymore. Like, I think I actually want a partner and maybe a family, like, because this, all this crap doesn't matter. Like, even generations from now, if you have a legacy, it's still going to be forgotten. So, like, what is your actual legacy in this life? I don't want to have a bunch of trophies and die alone.

Mic drop, Elise. Mic drop. I think that expands to what makes people monetizable. Because when you divide people, they're monetizable. If you can be at war with me, then you're going to buy all the tools that make you better at fighting me, and I'm going to do the same for you. So this war of the sexes, it actually does not exist. It doesn't exist. It only exists because of the propagation of the propaganda that people continue to consume because they feel uneasy in themselves and they saw it play out with their mother and father. It's all meaningless and meaningful at the same time. I don't know how else to explain it.

Sometimes I'll add one more thing that I think you would totally buy into is like, not that I'm trying to sell anything, but, like, when you're talking about the propaganda and how it feeds into the profit of the. Of the top guns, right? We, we say to women, oh, be your independent self. You know, sleep with whoever you want. Like, we say it to men too, but women are the ones who are fed the birth control. And when you think about birth control and how many years and how many abnormal hormone supplements that we're taking, and then what. What has just happened recently? Women can't get pregnant. And so what do they have to do? Ivf. How expensive is ivf? Yeah, so we're telling people and then, and then also it manipulates your hormones to the point where it's like you, I guess you're attracted to people who are similar to you when you're on it, when you're naturally supposed to be attracted to someone who has different genetics so that you can have the healthiest chance of survival. So then you're, you're with someone all throughout this birth control period, get pregnant, and then you. Then you don't like your partner anymore. So we have divorces, single family homes, and it just feeds into this cycle, right? It's a total polarity cycle that just. It's crazy.

It's. It's crazy, but it's actually controlled craziness. It's. It's like being fed to people bite by bite. And one thing that's like, no one wants to talk about it, but I talk about it because it's like, if we don't put dark in the light, how is the dark ever going to evolve? And it is this whole gender dysphoria thing where you have girls that are thinking they're boys and boys that are thinking they're girls. And yeah, if people are going through trauma, the first thing I think they need is, is time and understanding and compassion. But we don't need to be freaking glorifying it and appropriating gender dysphoria as a talking point to drive clicks. And that's what's really going on right now. And that's also another kind of vein of evil that's seeping into the minds of young people, specifically the TikTok scrollers where they're like, oh, I don't like my life. So I'll just like do this whole gender dysphoria thing. And it gives me meaning, it gives me purpose, it gives me something to believe in when I can't believe in the world or God or anything else.

And just like the body weight issue, like glorifying obesity.

Exactly.

Glorifying an unhealthy lifestyle. And I don't know if you've seen this interview. You might have. If you're big about the mask thing is like they did an interview about like Russian strategy or something and how if you want to take over a country and do the long game, you have to first confuse the people and make them like, make them stupid. Right? Like the ultimate way to take them over. So China, like has TikTok for us and it feeds us all the stupid dancing and stuff, but for them it's like architects and engineers and, you know, science stuff and Then. Then we're confused. What is a man? What is a woman? Right. We're totally confused about everything. What is actual health? Is it fat? Is it not fat? Like, we're being totally confused and made to feel like we have to believe these things that are not true.

Yeah.

Or else you're going to get taken out of society.

Well, one of the. One of the core components of communism or dictatorship is to make the truth a lie and the lie a truth. And if you can do that on a grand scale, look at how Hitler came to power. Look at Stalin. Look at what's going on in freaking North Korea. Oh, my God. If people actually knew the atrocities and the heinous, disgusting things that were happening in North Korea, there would be a world revolution. But we're compartmentalized in our attention spans because of this tool called artificial intelligence and social media. So the only thing you and I can do, Elise, is to fight it with love. We can't fight it with anger. You can't fight fire with fire. If I tried to go out there and be angry about gender dysphoria and angry about communism and angry about all these things, that just feeds the beast, that just makes the beast stronger. So I'm. I'm on the other side of it, and I feel like you are too, where it's like, hey, let's talk about the dark. But we don't need to focus on the dark because that just makes it more dark. Like, let's talk about the solutions of how we get out of this.

Absolutely, Absolutely.

This is so good. And I cannot let you go unless we talk about the ultimate dynamic, which is narcissism and people pleasing. That is a big one. We haven't had time. Maybe we have you back at some point on the show to go into the attachment styles. That's a whole different podcast, right. With the. The anxious, avoidant, insecure. But when I really feel into this dynamic, I would say. And I wonder what you would say when we look at the people pleasing aspect, which maybe is more. More yin on a. On a Chinese medicine perspective. And then when we feel into the narcissistic adaptation to life and the narcissistic way of being that feels more yang or more ultimatum based. Can you express how you see this in your work? The. The people pleasing versus the narcissism. And what are the hooks for? Watch out for.

They're perfect matches for each other. A people pleaser and a narcissist, because both are deeply, deeply wounded. And both of those wounds complement each Other, because the people pleaser feels the need to earn love. And they feel good by giving and giving and giving. Right. They, that they feel that urge, they feel the, the need to do that. And a narcissist needs to be given to, needs to have all the attention, needs to be, needs to be pleased. And so for a time, they, they really fulfill each other's roles. Until the people pleaser is like, wait a minute, I'm, I'm literally not getting anything back. But they will, they will stick it out for the longest periods of time. Like, they will not give up.

Why?

Because they feel like they can please their way into a loving relationship and they simply cannot. They feel like, they feel like it's on them that they can do more because they've learned that in order to receive true love, it's, it's on them that they need to give in order to earn. So they just automatically take responsibility and say, well, you know, I, I just need to do this. And even if it ends, they're like, I just don't know what I did. They cannot accept that they were deserving of any type of reciprocation or that they didn't need to do all those things in order to get that love.

Because on the flip side, there is that demand ultimatum from the narcissist. And I don't know the data, but it's, there's a large percentage of the population that are most likely narcissists. If you had to guess, like what?

Actually there's a small percentage. Only 3.5% of people are actually classified as NPD. So this is another dangerous part of social media. Everyone's throwing out the term narcissist. And not everybody's a narcissist. We all, a lot of us have narcissistic tendencies.

That's what it is.

Yes.

What's the difference then to actually be an NPD versus tendency?

Well, I mean, there's a whole list of things that classify as a narcissist, but the, a huge difference is like a lot of people who have narcissistic tendencies but aren't narcissists are like questioning, oh my God, am I a narcissist? And they're like going to get help for this. And they're seeing people. Narcissists don't even look at that because everybody else is the problem.

Yeah, they're not like narcissists going to get help.

Usually if you are accusing someone of being a narcissist, that person is usually more likely to Be a narcissist.

Interesting.

Ironically.

Well, that makes sense though, because in some way, or depending on how deep you go into young perception is projection. So whatever I'm calling out in someone else, where does that live in me? I remember when the mask BS came and the plan Demic and all the insanity around the mind control. I was like so angry at the mask wearing people and I had to look within myself. I'm like, why are you so angry at these people? And then I went through the emotional ladder and I actually just found true compassion for them. Not that I'm better, not that they're better, just true compassion. Like if you don't trust yourself and your life and your immune system and your physicality, then not much is going to save you, especially not a diaper that you wear on your chin. So I'm really like amazed at how this aspect tumbles out into relationships where when a man or woman doesn't trust themselves, they lock and key, seek out a partner that is really sussing out through pain the things that are freaking calling to be healed. And as we round out, I have to ask you this, like, have you looked into your lineage? Have you looked into your mom, your grandparents, your great great grandparents? How far back have you gone to identify the ways that you help people now? In other words, how did you find that living inside of you, what was actually possibly toxic in your lineage?

I love that you asked this question. I haven't dove in too deep, mostly because I don't necessarily know my lineage. I would have to get some DNA tests done or something to really dive into it. But just from what I know, I thought about this the other day, actually, on my father's side it's been a lot of. What do you call it, a lot of strong nuclear families. And on my mom's side, not at all. Tons of single, single family dynamics, lots of abuse, lots of alcoholism, lots of, you know, just. Just a lot of wounding, a lot of mother wounds, a lot of, a lot of father wounds. And so it's just really interesting that, that you said that because I had an, like an esoteric teacher when I lived in Mexico and we were talking about children and how I didn't want to have children. And he said, do you feel like some part of you is toxic and you're going to pass that on? And I said, yeah, you know, I kind of think so. I really don't want to pass on these genetics or this DNA. And he said, no, let me stop you right there because you are 50% your mother and 50% your father. No matter how much you want to run away from this or deny this, you are part of that lineage in that family tree. So when you think badly about your family or what. What they've done or what they've gone through, it's like stabbing yourself. And so in order for you to really feel good about yourself, no matter where you've come from, you have to give healing back to, like, your lineage, because then you give hope to the family tree, right, Instead of. Instead of carrying on its curses. So I think a lot of, like, looking at your own lineage is also like, what you can forgive, right? And. And when you. When you look into those things and heal it, you really do stop the. The transition of the generational trauma.

Amen. I love. I love that. I love that because so many people, they wildly accept that you can be born with type 1 diabetes, and no one bats a finger at it, right? A physiological, epigenetic expression. But from an emotional, spiritual, epigenetic expression, I think they are exactly the same thing. The mind cannot live without the body and vice versa. So if we applied spiritual or logic to this quotient of, like, why are we the way that we are? It's both. It's absolutely both. How could it not be, Elise? How could it not be both? That literally, if. If you look at the work of Mark Wolin, and we've talked about this quite a bit on the show, we'll link it right here. If you. If you think about it like, when you're. When your mother and my mother were in our grandmother's womb, we were already a cell, an egg inside of them. So how could it not be that we absorb the trauma and the things that they have gone through, and then that is the color or the fabric in which we attempt to. To live in this world. I mean, I think it's just fascinating that anyone could. Could fight that, you know, And I, I really, as we say goodbye here, like, I really think it's a big deal for people to not just have to do the work, not hard charge and do the work. And, you know, if you're a man with us or if you're a woman with us, and you. You see these men coming to you, or maybe you're in a relationship with a man that needs support. Like, the website is Elise Michaels.com. it's E L I S E Michaels.com. reach out to Elise. But, Elise, you have to tell us before we go, if someone has identified themselves with maybe one of the woundings that we've talked about today. Is there a place where they go to get some of your work without actually working with you yet? In other words, I know working with you is a significant financial investment, but where do they go if they want to just begin the journey and figure out if they want to work with you?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean on all my social medias I try to post a lot of content. I try to give actionable items in those things so you can always have self discovery there. On the website I have a free masterclass that you can take the four pillars of men's mental health. So like I said, that's free. And Elise Michaels M I C H E A L S for anybody who's listening. And I have free resources, other free resources on my website as well. So there's tons of stuff and from those different pieces of content you might be inspired to go find a course of your own or. And I have a free list of books in my link in bio or whatever it's called as well. So there's tons of stuff that I try to put out there to help even if it's not working with me one on one.

Do you like Instagram?

I love Instagram. I love all the social media platforms.

Because it's a place for you to speak truth or.

Yeah, I mean, you know, Instagram is my favorite because people can send you messages and I love connecting with people on a personal and like they can respond to your stories. And like I talked about this on a different podcast, but I just feel like the community that I've been so blessed to have and to build is like they're the most beautiful people. Like I don't get any. Sometimes I get weird messages but like for the most part it's just like beautiful messages and people just trying to express their pain and like, you know, thank being so thankful and I'm just like so grateful to be surrounded by this beautiful community of men. And that's really what I want to, to help and then to show the world that like these men are out here really trying to like live their best lives and it's. They're not all pieces of crap like social media would have you believe.

It's so comforting to know that you've done your own work and you help men who are really looking at the parts of themselves that need the most work. It's so beautiful and it's so, like I said in the beginning, rare. There's so many men's coaches out there and, and there's a lot of men that are doing great work too, that have balanced that energy inside of themselves, the. The polarity, the masculine and feminine. But it's interesting, in the beginning when I asked you that question, you know, do you feel like you might lean towards more of a feminine core? I do think there is something to be said about the trustworthiness of someone who's been massively wounded, a man who's been massively wounded by his mom, to receive guidance from a woman. I think there's a trustworthiness that naturally unfolds there. And I think that you definitely embody that. And that's honestly why I reached out to you. We connected naturally from ignorance. And I popped you a message. I was like, I think I actually saw the ig that you did about the way that a man gives and receives love from his mother. I think that was the actual clip, the real that you put out. And so as we say goodbye, what did we miss? What did we miss when it comes to the topic of men's mental health and our society having the trauma informed or the trauma ignorance.

That's a loaded question because you could say we've essentially missed so much. But I think to highlight the things that are most important is that men matter. And if you're a man listening to this or a woman listening to this, don't disregard the men in your lives because they're so important and this work is so important for everybody to understand just so that we can be a healthier and better community as a whole and so that the next generation doesn't have to suffer unnecessarily from our blind mistakes.

That's right. Two things is that I don't want my son or my child. We don't know if it's going to be a boy or a girl yet. But I don't want them to suffer financially and I don't want them to suffer relationally. If they want to suffer in other ways, like their career, their goals, their purpose, fine, you know, get bloody, go on the skate ramp, but not financially or emotionally. And I think it's a testament to why we do what we do with wellness and wisdom and why we had you on the show today. So just super stoked that we shared time. And as we say goodbye for real, leave us with this answer. How do you define wellness in your world where you help men, and in your world where you've helped yourself with this trauma information and the mental health aspect of you and of others, how do you define living life? Well, what does a life. Well, lived, feel and look like for you. And how do you define wellness?

I would say it's being self aware enough to always come back to that place of alignment and peace and trying to always align with your joy. If you can be self aware to know that you can come back from the downs and come back from the the ups and and be at a place where you trust yourself, I think that's wellness.

I feel that's wellness too. Thank you for coming on again, Elise Michaels, from my heart and Elise's heart, until we see you guys next week, multiple times per week, we're both wishing you love and wellness. We'll talk to you soon. Hey, thanks for watching this video. If you love hit, subscribe that way you'll be automatically notified when new videos come out, new episodes, and also share this video with a friend. If you loved it, they're going to love it too. Check out some of the videos on this screen that are perfectly curated based on the video you just saw. Make sure you follow me and I'll see you in the next video.