Paleo f(x) 2017: Mind Pump Radio LIVE In Austin, Texas

Wellness Force Radio. Feelings are essential, but they can't dictate our actions.

We literally infect each other with our emotions.

We came here for a special purpose.

Let the purpose unveil itself. Knowing without doing is the same thing as not knowing.

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Help me do the right thing.

Hey, what's up? It's Josh, your host. I think this is gonna be a totally new experience for you on Wellness Force Radio. Today. You're coming behind the curtain with me. We're sitting down live and in person with Adam, Sal and Justin from Mind Pump Radio, where I got the chance to visit them and talk for almost two hours, completely unfiltered and unedited. Which, by the way, I want to warn you, all the moms and dads out there, if you have kids or if you're sensitive to swearing, just a heads up on this episode. And on Mind Pump, there is a lot of swear words, so pop in some headphones if you're around ears that shouldn't hear. But this was one of my favorite talks at the Paleo FX Conference a couple weeks ago in Austin. If you're not familiar with the Paleo FX Conference, it's this global meetup for all things primal, Paleo and ancestral living where pretty much the top speakers in the world come together to discuss these changes we all need for the wellness world. But total transparency. I really flinched at publishing this episode, but as we've learned together on the show, with so many guests, it's pushing through our fear prs and being fully seen and openly expressive that allows us to really connect and uplift and inspire others. Looking forward to your feedback on this type of show format. Do you want to see this type of conversation flow on the podcast or do you like The Wellness Force Friday? 15 minute and longer, more researched and in depth content you've been hearing on the show. Let me know. Shoot me a message. Joshwellnessforce.com so in this episode, not only do I open up about dealing with anxiety, what that's been like while being a wellness entrepreneur, but the guys from Mind Pump and I talk about wellness technology and what it was like to work at 24 Hour Fitness as trainers, to see these broken parts and the ugly parts of the fitness industry. What changes we need to happen so we can radically shift this obesity epidemic in our world. All right, let's drop in in person, raw, unfiltered with the guys from Mind Pump Radio live in Austin, Texas.

Oh yeah.

Welcome To MTV Cribs. We're here with Mind Pump. We're just hanging out here talking about real shit. Hey, is that an Apple watch or is that a Nike watch?

Both, my friend.

Welcome to Mind Blown.

Yeah, yeah, it's whatever I want it to be today.

Yeah, yeah.

If you went like this, you're like, what do you think it is?

Yeah, that would have been a better answer for sure. Damn it.

We'll talk tech.

Yeah.

You and me.

Yeah, great.

These guys, them, you know, let's do this.

Cool.

I'm on it.

Yeah, yeah. So back to what I was bringing up to you is a guy that's been in the industry for as long as you have, you grew up in the same company we did. Learned a lot from them. We were just talking about how, you know, we don't want to sit here, bash or talk about a great company like that that we all learned a lot from when we started. Right. So I always, I refer to, I refer to them as like my bad parents. Like I love them. I still love them because they're my parents. And I learned like they did a lot of things the wrong way. And so that's how I think of 24 Hour Fitness.

They're good providers, but they're a little abusive.

Just a little, you know, like a little bit.

Yeah, you can say, you could say that. But I find it fascinating when you see, when you see that and then you, you have kind of like what Mind Pump is about is where we talk about all this stuff and we've exposed a lot of the gimmicks and the bullshit in the fitness industry and a lot of the ways that we do that is by sharing our own stories that we used to, we used to do all that shit. I mean, I used to, we used to close hard on people's emotions and feelings. And then you see a company like Planet Fitness that's coming up and this company is the extreme. Even worse than company, they are targeting people that they know are not going to stick to anything and they put the membership so low that, you know, it's like a no. Oh, to have a gym membership. $9 a month or 19 or whatever the fuck it is. Yeah, it's like it's a no brainer. And they get, and I could get free pizza. Let's see if they do the math. I mean that pretty much free pizza Monday. Seriously. I mean, it's such a.

It seems kind of blasphemous though, doesn't it?

Well, yeah, just a little bit.

Or how about Gems that have Coca Cola and Pepsi in the, the machines. What's up with that?

Yeah, that's, that's true.

That's like going to a church and swearing. Yeah, that's really what you're doing, right?

Yeah. I mean, you know, Planet companies like Planet Fitness, you can't really blame them because they're doing, they're, they're utilizing a tactic that's very effective. It's been proven.

Shame on us. Shame on us.

It's, it's, it's been proven to be very effective. We were part of a company that kind of mastermind a little bit of that model. Right. Like, the big box model is you sell a lot of memberships, you hope people don't use your club, and you make sure the price is low enough to where it doesn't make sense to cancel it, because I'm only paying X amount of dollars per month or per year. And knowing that model, understanding that model, that's where a lot of the money goes. We were just talking about, like, most of our training. I'll tell you what, I worked as a trainer at 24 Hour Fitness, and you know, you had your certification, and most of the money and energy from 24 Hour Fitness goes to teaching you how to sell training. It does not go to making you, like, the most awesome trainer ever. Not at all. So. And that's just that, that's just that model that just seems to work so well on our emotions.

Well, it was, it was six years into my career before I'll never forget seeing this slide. I met, we were at a big kickoff meeting, and I'm like, I'm five years into being a fitness manager at this point. And we've, like you said, we've been so focused on training sales. That's. I just, I taught sales all day long.

That's what I taught as a fitness manager for five.

Yeah, right. For five years of my career, that's what I taught. I taught people how to close and how to, how to like, sell somebody on a program and based off of, like, whatever you wanted to create. And I told, I used to tell my trainers they could create that for them. You create that. Right now, it's not something tangible, you know, so it's something that you paint that picture for them. So I put that much energy on, on the sales piece. Five years comes in, I'm looking up at this projector, and they have the stats of a trainer with a level one certification, level two, level three, level four, and then a master trainer. Right. And in order to be a master trainer back in those days, you had to have 5,000 hours and at least three national certifications and or degrees.

You got the special black shirt as well.

Oh, yeah, that's right.

The white lettering.

Oh, man, you better believe. You know what I got.

So this was, what was crazy was when I saw. And then to the right of all that was how long they stayed in the retention. Yeah. How long they stayed in the company, the average sessions that they service, the amount of money they sold every month. And it was like, holy. If we can just get them educated and get them up to this level.

You're the only one that really hacked into that. Like I.

Well, in our area for sure.

In our area.

Yeah.

Because I remember that was the big push then. It is to get us all enough certification so we could move our way up in, in the pay grade. Yeah. And it's like I, I felt like there was just. That wasn't, that wasn't the vibe. That wasn't the thing that was taught, you know, is how to maximize your time there and make the most amount of money. And it was getting more educated at the same time. It was a no brainer.

Well, I think gyms aren't the only one that are at fault. I think the whole industry is like that. I mean, it's, it's everywhere.

How did, how did you start your career in fitness? Was it as a trainer there?

Yeah, I was actually in Hawaii. I was 280 pounds at one point. Oh, shit. Yeah. When I grew up, when I grew up, I did not have the right psychological or physiological tool sets from my parents. So at some point I just realized I was actually. I remember, I'll never forget this. I was at a party, I was drinking beer out of a red cup and I slammed the cup down because I tried to lose weight for like a year on and off. And I was like, there's more to life than this. And I just got so angry. I ran home drunk for like three miles. And when I got home, I pulled over my HP, the old school laptop that weighed like 50 pounds. And I typed in, how do I be healthy? And that was what led me on this path.

Wow. Fantastic.

Yeah.

So then I ended up selling everything I owned. I moved to Hawaii. No, I was 22 years old and I was just like hiking, surfing and fishing. And I was working out at a 24 Hour Fitness there. And the fitness manager come up to me, he's like, hey, have you thought about being a trainer? And I was like, what's a Trainer. I didn't know what personal training was, and so I was, like, trying to do this path of wellness on my own, and I thought, oh, my God, this is a catalyst. I can help other people to do what I'm doing. And so then that led me in my career. Yeah. And the next 10 years was just, like, absorbing as much fitness as I could and certifications and just. Yeah. The master trainer shirt with the black.

How long were you at. How long were you at 24?

For, like, six years.

And then did you do something afterwards?

Actually, I. After I got out of 24, I took all my clients and went to a private studio across the street.

A lot of people did that.

Yeah, it's called High Voltage Fitness in La Jolla. Right across the street.

That's great.

So, yeah, the new fitness manager would come in upstairs and look down at the new studio across the street. But, yeah, that was my journey, man. It was. It was birth from pain. Like, I felt so uncomfortable, and I hated my body so much that I knew there was more. Like, my authentic self. Just knew, but I wasn't exactly sure how to do it.

You just 180 right away? Yeah.

Well, it was over the course, like, two years to really lose weight. Yeah. Well, it's really like your mindset, though.

Did you.

Did you find yourself gravitating to a company, a brand, or any message in, like, general out there? Were you listening to podcast?

Yeah, Podcasting is going on 2004, 2005. Not really mean, even having a laptop then. I'm old enough to know what it's like to have a pager.

Okay, we're all the same age, then.

Come on.

So. But no, you know, the brands that I gravitated towards at that age was like, honestly, just music. Like, I was 22 years old. I was listening to, like, ludicrous. I was listening to, like, Incubus. So I didn't have any fitness brands or any personalities and wellness that I was, like, really attracted to or really felt pulled to. I just knew there was something greater. I didn't. I didn't know exactly what it was, but I knew it was something, you know, And I think people find their catalyzing power through fitness first, and then along the journey, they're like, oh, fitness is actually the first step. It's really wellness that we're looking for.

Right.

And that's what led me to found wellness force in my company.

That's cool.

Yeah. I think looking at. Look, it's really interesting being. Because I've been doing this for 20 years as a professional, I've been fitness for that long and, and I've seen more.

Notice the gray hairs.

Yeah, that's right.

Wisdom. Wisdom.

It's wisdom. Those are wisdom hairs. It see, it feels like, and I don't know if it's because I'm in it so deep now. And I don't know, maybe you guys can agree with me, but it feels like the last. I've seen more changes in the last five years than I did in the previous almost 15.

Well, isn't that across the board with everything though? I mean, I mean it feels like everything is Moore's Law, right? Everything or everything is like compounding like it's trained.

I tell you what, man. So I owned a personal training studio. So I had my own gym in there. So I worked out in there for 12 years, which meant I wasn't in big box gym. So I had my clients did my own thing and I wasn't really paying attention to the trends of the big box gyms. I went in there into one of them. I think it was, it might have been Gold Gym. And you know what surprised me? That there were so many squat racks. I mean, nobody was squatting when, you know, back when I was in these big box gyms, we had in a massive 30,000, 40,000 square foot facility. You'd have like two squat racks, all machines. Yeah. It'd be like, honest to God. And then I go into a gold. And I went into a 24 Hour Fitness. I'm like, whoa. They got cages. Like, look at all these cages. This is interesting. And people started lifting weights a little bit differently.

Oh, I was a, I was a fitness manager before I even taught a squat. Was literally a fitness manager telling teaching trainers what to do before I'd even taught my first squat on somebody. That's how much it was neglected back then.

Well, I think there's that part. And then there seems to be this wellness piece that I'd say over the last five years I'm really starting to see a little bit of crossover into that world. You know, that was, that was our.

Message from the very beginning was like, how do we. We saw like a big gap there between fitness and wellness and the division there of like where, where the message really was in fitness. It was just, I mean, we weren't really helping people on that level where we were helping their health. And we just, we're trying to figure that out. Like, how can we combine the two together? How can we get people back into the wellness mind of things And. And Sal had, you know, that experience coming from his gym, kind of already having people in there that were part of that wellness, you know, physical therapy.

Well, I really started to notice it when I started to put two and two together. Being a numbers guy, and I love looking at analytics. I started looking at, like, I thought of myself as a really good trainer, and my clients aren't really that successful if I'm truly honest with myself.

Yeah.

And that was when it really, like, dawned on me. Like, wait, I think I'm good at this, and I'm still like 20% successful. That's not good. So something's wrong. Like, the message is wrong, whatever it is, and I'm part of that, giving that message. And so for me, that's when it really started starting to question that. And it took a long time, because it took me a long time to go, well, I've trained probably thousands of people by now, and it's like, why.

Haven'T I kept them?

Yeah, yeah. Why don't I. Why don't I have these relationships with these thousands of people that I've. Because I know when I do change someone's life, especially now, where you really, really help them connect the dots and. And work on the relationship with food, with their relationship with exercise and themselves, when you really help someone, man, they're forever connected to you. And I should have thousands of people connected to me for that reason. But the information that I was sharing and given was all the wrong information, in my opinion, because. And we just got into this debate recently on. Who was it? It was. No, it wasn't Lane. Was it Lane?

No, no, no, no, no. It was what it was that doctor. I don't remember his name.

Yeah, we were. We were going back and forth on, you know, there was a recommendation for protein powder instead of burger and fries. And it was just. It was like an old Slim Fast.

You remember Slim Fast commercial?

Yeah.

Eat a sensible dinner, you know, sensible lunch and have slick Fast for dinner. Yeah, it was equivalent to that. And so it was. It was showing option one, sensible dinner, fast food, lunch, sensible. Or excuse me, sensible breakfast, fast food, lunch, sensible dinner. Then option two was, you know, breakfast and dinner were sensible, and you had a protein shake instead. It's like, you know, great. This is a great way to lose weight. And the message just hit me, man, like. Like, right, my nerve. And, like, I gotta fucking say something. And it started. Sparked this freaking huge debate online and, you know, with people arguing semantics. You know, it's. A doctor's an obesity specialist. And he's saying stuff like, look, cut your calories, you're gonna lose weight. And I'm like, nobody's arguing that. That's, that's, there's no, you can't argue that. Of course that's gonna happen. But having done this as long as I have and having worked with as many people as I have, there are ways we can do things that will give people long term lifetime results. And not just the cosmetic of weight loss, but actually being healthier and feeling better about themselves in true ways. And then there's ways that we can, you know, train people or teach people that we've been doing for the last God. Meal replacement powder has been around for a long time. Doctors have been prescribing people for a long time. They don't fucking work. It's not as easy as, you know, taking less calories, move more and that's it. And so.

Yeah, but this calories in, calories out model, we've known for so long that it's broken. It's not true at all.

Yeah.

So I think what you're really touching on is the old system of you see somebody twice a week, there's 164 hours where you're not seeing them. So even if they have the slim fast shake or whatever it is, they need smarter touch points.

Yeah.

These people need real emotional connection with their coaches or their trainers.

Well, not only that, but.

And training is never going to go away.

Yeah.

But it just needs to evolve and I think technology can help it too.

Well, I remember, I mean, I remember one big turning point for me was I had a client who, you know, we were training together and I had her on the schedule for three days a week. And she came to me and told me she can only now train once a week. Life circumstances weren't allowing her to make it to the, to work out with me that much. Plus it was a cost issue because three days a week of personal training becoming quite expensive. And I remember thinking like, I'm gonna have a come to Jesus talk with her. Like if you're only gonna work out.

Once a week as he's wearing a Darwin shirt.

Exactly. If you know, working out once a week. Irony exactly is you can't use a.

Jesus reference with the Darwin show. You get away with that. I know. Lightning, bro.

I didn't have it come to Darwin talk.

Thank you.

And you know, I was gonna tell her, look, you're wasting your time. I was gonna try and motivate her. If you're not working out Three days a week. And, you know, and she didn't come anymore. And it hit me like, man, I'd done that so many times before. Like, wait a minute, this woman now is doing nothing. I have not benefited her at all. She's gone because I have this mentality of fitness that is super ineffective. And so you just start looking at things, okay, how can I become much more effective with my message so that people do this for themselves? They maybe don't need me anymore. The funny thing is, clients would stay with me at that point now, 10, 12, 15 years, but it was so much more effective from that standpoint.

You had built such a connection with them, though. You had shared memories and you had PRs that you had helped them through, and you had really kind of built them up from the ground as far as their physical ability, right?

Absolutely, absolutely.

So, I mean, that's a big reason why they stayed with you. I mean, sometimes when I'd be in a session, I'd realize, like, this was just something they do after their nail appointment. And, like, that's the real thing for some of these people. So how do we shift this training model to work? I think we do it because people are on their phones. People are using technology. Like, let's harness tech a little bit so we can help these people get healthy when they're not in the gym. Because to be honest, like, I love the gym, but who wants to go to the gym so much when really, like, nature's calling out there?

Oh, absolutely.

So let me ask a tech guy like you then, over the last 10 years, what tech have you or what do you think has been some of the best tech for fitness? And what are the things you think that are worse or set us back?

What's going to lead the way?

Yeah, I think what's going to lead the way is smart wearables with virtual coaching, like taking something in the gym, not changing the trainer element. Think of it like Spotify. Spotify is awesome because you can get any song you want at any time. What if you had a Spotify model to training where you came with your trainer, you train once a week with your trainer or even bi monthly, but then you had access to them 247 through an app where you could talk to them, you could send exercises to them. It would be like going to the trainer, but you're not actually in the gym, but you're still held accountable because your data that your body creates doesn't lie. Like, if you're not sleeping correctly, if you're not stepping Correctly if you're not doing enough workouts, the trainer can see that. And so then it turns into like the old beat down model was coming to the gym three times a week and you know, I'll kick your ass, I'll crush you in a session and you'll feel great. But then how does that really help your wellness? What helps your Wellness is the 165 hours out of the gym. So if we can have this mirror of mindfulness for clients through the device. That's powerful, man.

So you know who's building all the content for that right now? Probably Apple Mind Pump's building a lot of that content, right?

That's what we're trying to.

Yeah, the idea of, of what we're doing with the podcast coupled with the YouTube channels is to. And every day there's a new video that's getting dropped and they compliment all the programs. And the one thing that we knew was going to be so tough for us was, okay, how do we. Especially since we're all like anti classes and it's all about trying to individualize it for a person. And how do you do that when you're speaking to the masses or in a group? And so how do we create these individualized programs? So what we do with people is we help them understand when they're going through these exercise programs that you find online, they're learning how to program for themselves. And we use all the videos on the YouTube to complement each one of the programs based off of what they need. And it has like a full assessment that they take on themselves and that kind of guides them. And each one like guides them through steps and then explains why. And if they have issues that they can't do it, then that shoots you over to the YouTube channel for these exercises for you to work on or these priming movements or corrective exercise you. So I mean we've been building those, all that content out now for about two and a half years. I mean we still, I still feel like we have quite a ways to go and we're probably what, 300 or so youtubes plus another 600 plus videos for.

So I mean information has been out there for a long time and there's a lot of ways to access that information. But I mean, is that going to be the solution, do you think?

Yeah, there's a bridge between knowing and doing. Just because information's out there, just because people know of something doesn't mean they're going to take inspired action.

So how do you do that? Right. That's the question.

You do that through smart touch points and human connection. So you have somebody like, for example, I work with a company called Nudge Coach. I have a platform. All my clients wearable data is there on a dashboard for me. So I can see everything they're doing. I can see how they're sleeping, I can see their quality. I can see how sedentary versus active they are, which is huge. If somebody is like sitting on their ass for 13 hours and they work out for an hour at a CrossFit box, like that's great, but it didn't really take away the 13 hours that they were sedentary. So it's getting smart data so you can actually give somebody the right message at the right time. So I can check in with people throughout the week without spending an hour with them. I can just shoot them a message because I get a notification that they've been sedentary for too long.

So it's another, it's another way for virtual coaching, but with much more information on your client, much different.

And you try to coach it from being a co. Like you're not trying to get them super fixated on their numbers, right? You're trying to oversee this and you're.

Curating their psychological pieces, which is the.

Way that I see it will work. I feel with all this biofeedback and what's out there currently, I just, I feel like people can get stuck on these numbers or they could, you know, misuse these numbers or not understand these numbers completely. And for, for most of it, the only relevant ones in my opinion happen to be, you know, step count and, you know, maybe heart rate to some degree. How do you feel about heart rate variability, for instance?

I think it's Awesome. I use HRV4 training, which is you put your finger on the camera, on the iPhone. Awesome. And so I just know if it's red, green or yellow. Should I train hard? Should I relax? It's a very simple thing for me. There are people that use HRV for like predicting heart attacks and they go way deep like hrv. There is so much information out there about it. I just think like, should you train hard, should you rest or should you take it like a normal training day? I think that's the biggest.

But at the end of the day, it boils down to the trainer. It's always going to boil down, always going to boil down to the trainer because I think it's information has been out for a long time. There's lots of ways to access information. You can Push yourself to try to motivate yourself to get in shape. But what I look at is I look at the industry and I say, okay, what are the things that have worked and how can we take that and maybe make it even better? And the one thing, the one thing that I can see that has actually worked is feeling a sense of camaraderie. And you see that with fitness facilities, these small facilities that you walk into everyday, people who've never worked out before go in there and then they don't leave for like 15 years or 20 years, which is insane because the average person exercises for you know, one to three months and then you know who's.

Doing this very well right now? That's Orange Theory. Orange Theory is doing that model very well of building this tight little community.

And that's, that's what I'm saying, that's what's working. I mean they're exploding. CrossFit blew up because of that. That's really what made CrossFit.

Well, I'll tell you what's here. And here's the thing. You watch the difference of a company like Orange Theory and crossf is pay attention to how fast Orange Theory catches up to them because of the way they're, they're more tech, like the way they're evolving tech wise is so much faster. And they're, I mean they're already on, they're, they're more organized about their growth. Where I feel like CrossFit right now, I, I feel is having to put.

Out some right now. And I can point, I can tell, I mean, I think what, I think some of the, some of the holes that Orange Theory will have, which is why they're tapping into that camaraderie and that group, you know, energy together, which has always been successful. But you know, I think they need to have an area for individualized training to be comb to combine with that.

Just.

So that's how Boston Burn does it.

Like box and burn does.

It really is really brilliant.

Absolutely brilliant. So I think it's got that, you know, that component to it. And also if you look at, now this is the trainer in me talking, right? If you analyze the workouts themselves, the intensity focused model of fitness has a track record of short term success and it has a horrible long term success rate. I mean things that are real intense and exciting and make you jump a lot and sweat a lot. Yeah, they taibo or whatever, they get real popular because people love them for like, you know, a little while before.

They go into adrenal fatigue.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah.

So, I mean, let's say I'm taking it a step further. I mean, we're talking about all these different ways we can communicate with clients, but let's talk about the message. Like, you know, what if a place like that also had a meditative aspect to it or something? Now you're talking about long term success.

I think what you're touching on too is like, everything needs a proper orientation. So the way that you would assess a client, like you need to assess their emotions just like you would their overhead. Squat. It needs to be the same thing. And so like the behavior change component, a second podcast that I have is Fitness plus technology. And so I interview all these different companies and leaders that are trying to bring tech into the fitness industry. And a lot of them are so focused on like the platform or how cool the tech is or the gadget, they forget about the behavior change behind it. They forget about, like the emotional. Yeah. Like why you're doing it, why are you doing this? And so if you look at people like Bobby Cappuccio, he's a speaker in fitness industry. He is so intelligent when it comes to like neuroscience and behavior change. And how do you combine those two things and put that into a wearable and put that.

Now that would be, that would be absolute money.

That's where the industry is going. That's, that's truly where the industry.

You really think So I believe that's.

Fantastic because this is what the people are talking to that have the money.

Well, here's, you know, here's what I'm thinking. Like, you know, instead of asking you, you're like, your weight and how many calories you weigh? You know, it's like, okay, what did you eat? Why did you eat that? How did you feel? Were you happy? Were you?

Well, this is going.

How's your, how's your energy today? Like, all these different kind of questions. And then because of the, you know, whatever's in the app, the, the, the, the algorithm or whatever that they decide, it's able to connect dots for people.

Yeah.

When you can get those emotional connections to things like, oh, man, every time I eat, every time I eat chocolate.

Coupled, imagine that, coupled with urine, what.

He'S building right now with a continual glucose.

Yeah.

Have you.

Oh, Rob Wolf wore that on his arm. He did that for where?

Yes.

Did you read that book?

I loved it. I interviewed Rob, I read the book and I was like, that is the coolest I've ever seen.

How interesting is that?

Individual variants we have.

I Feel like we have to put him together.

We do. Yes.

Yes.

We're gonna introduce you to those guys.

You're gonna.

Yeah, you're gonna yank the out.

But I mean, how. How insane is that? That you had people with these continual glucose monitors who were. They would eat a cookie, get a spike in glucose, eat a banana, and not so bad, and then eat spikes, but then. No, then you get people who are the opposite. They would eat a cookie and have a great sugar response, and they eat a banana and it would spike through the roof. Or you had people eating, like, a fat meal, and then they'd get this crazy glucose response. And I think they were speculating that it might be, like, an immune response to the food or something, maybe a food intolerance.

It's also because, like, all of us have a thumbprint, but it's so different. The same internal thumbprint. Our bio individuality is different for every human. No one is alike. Everybody's different. So we cannot apply a metal.

All those factors.

Yeah. And then you factor in epigenetics and then. And then everything else that we encounter, pesticides and our environmental toxins.

State of mind.

State of mind. So, like, there's so many things that go into. Like, if a nutrition program or a movement program, training program will work, it's not. Just because your neighbor does it doesn't mean it'll work for you, period.

Yeah.

No.

And so what have you found that does work for you now or, like, in the last decade? Like, I have a handful of tools.

Name specific tools.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. I want to know a lot of them out there. Yeah. That you have used and then you felt very useful for you.

Well, I have. My whole life. I've had anxiety issues, like, my whole life. And so I actually, I just recently did Mark Devine's Seal Fit event, which was the 20x, which brought me to my psychological knees, like, one of the most challenging physical events. But I did the physical. The physical crucible because I wanted to figure out what it would be like for me to have a moment in my life where the voices were completely turned down. Because when I wake up in the morning, still, even as a wellness coach, even as somebody who's been banging away at this craft for years, like, I still have those voices inside. And a lot of people talk about this, like, the voices don't go away. It's how we can respond to the voices instead of be reactive to the voices. And so what do I think is the best for me, for technology? It's meditation.

Tell me You've used Brain fm.

I haven't used Brain fm, but my tool. You guys asked me about a tool. So I am aware of the anxiety. The tool that I use is mindfulness meditation. And what I do to track that is to get into my Alpha 2, which is really like the flow state. And I do that through the muse, the brain sensing headband. So that's, for me, that's been the ultimate.

Now when you're so you. How does that, how does the muse work? Are you trying to stay within a certain. Because you can't be conscious of that right. While you're doing it.

Totally. It's. It's a continuous practice where you wear it and you breathe. You either do a visualization meditation, you could maybe do box breathing while you're meditating. But when you're done with your session, you can look at, hey, this is showing me from my temporal lobe. This is what state my brain was in for my entire session. And so you can see like, all right, next time I meditate I'm going to do the breathing one because that worked better for me.

I see.

Or oh, I noticed in meditation I keep having this thought come up from my ex girlfriend. That pisses me off. Okay, how am I going to work on that in my life? So it's little mirrors of mindfulness that can not only help to quiet the voice, but also put you in the right state that's going to help you for the rest of the day.

Have you been doing this for a while now?

I've been doing it for two years.

For two years. And it made a big difference with your anxiety.

Huge difference.

So you were still dealing with that kind of anxiety up until about two years ago?

Absolutely.

Wow.

Well, well, guys, like, like total transparency. I still have anxiety, so what's the difference? Yeah, the difference is, is that I recognize the feeling. I'm aware of the feeling, but I don't allow it to bridge to my actions.

So I have practices.

Yeah. Like I have the awareness. Like, like even before I came over here, I had anxiety. But like, I'm not going to let it affect our cool conversation.

Sure, sure, absolutely.

So it's just something I'm aware of. I just, I just practice at it so that I'm not allowing it to control me.

This one, she was on Tom Bilyeu show show that, that lady, the Five.

Second Rule lady, Mel Robbins.

Yeah. And she was talking about anxiety. And this one blew me away because it's. I mean, when you hear it, you're like, oh, shit, that's obvious. But, yeah, all of the physical things that happen to you when you're anxious, the excitement in your chest, the cold hands, the, you know, all the. All the physical things that happen to you are the same things that happen to you when you're excited. So being excited and being anxious from a physical standpoint is the same thing. And so she was like, maybe just tell yourself. Maybe just tell yourself you're excited. I was like, holy shit. I was fucking mind blowing for me. Because once. I mean, I too, can get anxious. I can feel anxious, which a lot of people when that know me, they. They typically don't. You know, they think are. You know. You got to be kidding me, right? Because I talk so much. That's part of my.

People don't know. Like, you're so good at that. People don't know.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But that one rule right there of kind of being like, oh, wait a minute, I'm just excited because half the time I am. Most the time I am. Most of the time I'm not anxious about. I'm just excited because something new's about to happen.

I felt that I felt that way about box breathing the first time I did that. I was, like, blown away because you mentioned, like, we are. Where we're all very similar is none of us sleep at night. Everyone has that going around. And Brain FM is what changed it for me. But before that, when I first started doing box breathing, I was like, holy. I just totally. I could feel my whole body right after it. I think I did like seven. Seven or eight of them. Not even that long. And it was like, whoa. And that for me, that paired with, like, Brain FM is because you're.

You're getting out of fight flight. You're turning on parasympathetic nervous system. So you're just dropping in. And I'll be even more. Let's go like three more fathoms deep.

Yeah, let's do this.

Warrior breath. At Mark Devine's event where it was kind of like a Wim Hof method.

Yeah.

Where we took it for 30 minutes breathing, half the room was in tears. Grown men. Yeah, tears. Because we have emotions that are stored in our muscle tissue in our nervous system that come out through breathing. Holotropic breathing, through ayahuasca, through psilocybin, through intense exercise.

Massage.

People who do marathons cry. Yeah, Massage.

Deep massage can do this. You know, I have some personal friends that are massage therapists, and they'd be like, you wouldn't. You wouldn't Believe the people that cry on my table when I'm working on a tight area or whatever. Do you think memories are? I've heard people say, you know, and I worked very, very close with a very impactful massage therapist for years and I learned quite a bit from her. But she would say things like, you know, literal memories are stored in our body and she's kind of that, you know, out there kind of person. So I was like, okay, well, you know, I think I know what she means, but whatever.

Yeah.

But then I've heard other people say that they're literally stored in your body as if it's got a memory to these types of things. Do you think that's what it is or do you think they would use it just as a way to explain?

Yeah. I asked Dr. John Sullivan about this. He wrote the Brain Always Wins. I had him on the podcast, incredible guest that you guys get to talk to. And he said, we don't really have muscle memory. What we have is neuron memory where every time we move it tells our brain to code that signal in. So when you ask, is there memories that are stored in the muscle tissue? I don't think they're physically stored in the muscle tissue, but I think when that tissue is activated, like through smr or through like, you know, egoscue, whatever makes perfect, whatever it is, the brain remembers that, that part got excited and then the brain might have the memory stored in there. But I don't think physically now that.

That makes perfect sense because I think.

There'S a great explanation.

That's a great explanation. And I'll tell you, we've all experienced this. Have you ever smelled something and instantly you're taken to a memory hell week.

In football when the grass is just right, right?

Or you just, you smell something, you're like, oh, fuck this. This is like sixth grade classroom or whatever, Mrs. Whatever's class. And it's because there's a part of your, the part of your brain that remembers things is so close to the part of your brain that perceives smell that they kind of cross a little bit. So what you're saying makes perfect sense.

Brings me back.

That's a memory of its own mass building days. But yeah, it makes perfect sense that, you know, certain movements or exercises or massage will activate these types of tissues. You brought up the, you know, things like psilocybin ayahuasca. That's on a whole other level.

That's a whole other level, man. And I, and I think that it's not for everyone like there are some people that, there are some people that should play in that realm and there are some people that shouldn't. Right?

Yeah, I know. For me, I've used cannabis as a tool for, I first started using it for, to help me with my gut health because it was so effective with its anti inflammatory properties. And I had gone through a period of time where I had pretty severe autoimmune issues and I used cannabis on vacation. I was on vacation and we had bought some, you know, pot and it was shitty weed or whatever and I had, I had had someone else see.

Weed with seeds in it.

Yeah, it wasn't brick weed, but we smoked it all day and I could eat whatever I wanted. And all of a sudden my gut was fine, but I didn't connect the two. I come back and I thought to myself was because I was relaxed, I was on vacation. That's why my, my, my digestion was so good. I come back to the States, I start eating better than I was on vacation and I had all these issues come back and then I started making connecting the dots and that's when I started using cannabis. But I also find cannabis can be effective at helping with anxiety, but it can also make anxiety much worse.

Yeah, I feel like it can produce anxiety. The only realms I've played in is psilocybin and also ayahuasca.

And I think, man, you went for the strong.

Yeah, I went right to our mom. And the reason I did that is because there was a point a few years back where the anxiety was really tumultuous and I had tried everything like going to therapy and doing EMDR and, you know, just me going through emotional trainings and just all this stuff. And so what I found was, is that when you, when I experienced ayahuasca, it took me to a place where not only did the voices go away, but I was connected to something I didn't understand, but I just knew it was there. And so I can't really explain that with words. I think if you feel called to do ayahuasca, Tim Ferriss said It was like 20 years of therapy in a night. And that's kind of what I felt, actually.

Wow.

So I don't know if you, I don't know if this is like forbidden territory to talk about.

We just, we had a three and.

A half hour last night.

Okay, so how does it get away from this? How does this relate to our wellness? I think it's a piece of it. I think we have all these pieces of wellness, you know, Fitness being one of them, technology being another. Like doing some kind of plant medicine can be a powerful tool, but you have to be ready for it. I think people need to do float sessions.

Yeah, I love.

Totally.

I did that. I did that just one time and I loved it. But how much, you know, it's funny, we talk about anxiety and those, you know, the feelings that surround it. I would, you know, I would make a bet that a lot of people's issues with food stem from that, you know, to where they feel uncomfortable a little bit and, or, you know, uncomfortable with themselves or the situation or their thoughts or their stress because of their kids or whatever. And here's this anti anxiety medicine. Food. Food is very good at putting it kind of distracting you or putting you in a particular moment or taking away that feeling. I wonder what I would, I would venture to say that would be a large percent of the problem.

I believe it's. We train our nervous system as kids and that sticks with us as adults. That's what I feel like. So we know that something takes away our pain at a certain age and then that's coded for later on. So we just looks like a go to, like if you drink or if you smoke or if you eat food at a certain age, like it's gonna filter through.

So making those good connections with kids is really where it needs to start. Those good connections with food.

And I don't know, I think sometimes our parents are just doing the best they can. So I don't know, I don't know if we can always go retroactively back and fix things. We can just be aware of them as adults, which is why you guys exist, to help people that had really kind of up things happen to them when they were kids, which led to their habits as them being adults.

Well, I'll tell you what, like, I have kids, right? And nothing will blow your mind more than having kids and then realizing the, that you're parenting them with the way you parent your insecurities and you're doing them out of love, you know, plays out in front of you and you're being. And then all of a sudden you're being objective about it and you're looking at it. You're like, what am I do? Like, that's wrong. I shouldn't be like, I should. Why am I getting angry? I won't eat their dinner. Yeah, absolutely.

I'm forcing this issue and like, eat your dinner.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's just like Kyle Kingsbury, ladies, we gotta make sure we get a Picture.

My God. Is there anything we can get you, sir? You just wanted to.

Have a good swim, brother. Yeah, yeah, no problem.

That's awesome. Yeah, sweet. He's that standard for mind pump.

That's our bodyguard.

You know what?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

His own podcast will be starting to be. Used to be a pro UFC fighter. Now he's got a great podcast he'll be starting, so. Good guy. But yeah, I, you know, having kids blew me away because, like, you know, I would get upset with them for not cleaning their plate. And it's coming out of love. Like, you got to eat all your food, like, finish all your food, and.

You have to great depression kind of mindset.

And I'm like, what am I. Like, what am I doing? Like, my kids are never going to starve. That's never. That's not going to happen anytime soon. Like, why am I force feeding my kids? And you realize, like, all this shit that's taught to you as a child and you grow up as an adult, no wonder we have all these issues with food. It's absolutely crazy.

Yeah, man. When I was a kid, food was my friend. Like, that's why I gained weight, because food, Food allowed all those tension feelings in my chest that I didn't want to feel. It just quieted them. So I can remember, like, as a kid, even in high school, I would go train and then I would get like two carne asada burritos after training.

Do you still. Do you still catch yourself, like, having. Having to deal with your childhood stuff?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

The difference now, as we talked about before, is awareness versus just like reactiveness.

Right.

That's mindfulness. Like, real mindfulness takes work. It's not sexy.

Right.

People like mindfulness.

It's not always successful. Right. Sometimes you fail.

Yeah, but. But the thing is, you keep getting back on the horse.

It's.

It's. It's being perfectly imperfect. Like, that's really what it is. And so how can we use people, communities, technology to fortify that knowledge, that awareness?

Now, do you think at some point being. Being aware of that process, that you'll end up where it becomes automatic, like the old process was?

I believe so, because I think self mastery has layers of onions that get peeled.

Are there things now that are? Because, I mean, you lost a lot of weight.

Yeah.

I mean, how long ago was that?

2002.

Yeah. Statistically, you're an anomaly. Most people who lose that amount of weight don't keep it off for any real length of period of time, so. And you're Obviously a very self aware person. A lot of those processes must be more automatic now, right? Like what. What other.

What do you think?

There's just always been like this fire of curiosity inside me. I feel that from you guys too. Like I want to know how things work and when I know how they work, I can better understand how I can optimally be like the whole self mastery thing. Hopefully all of us that are listening to this are wanting to be better at self mastery or become more self mastered. And so I've always had just that desire. I don't really know where that comes from. Maybe it's why I like podcasting as well, because I want to ask people questions about why they do what they do. Like Gretchen Rubin's work fascinates me. Just anything that involves behavior change and habits. Doesn't that dork you guys out?

I can identify completely, especially from the technology perspective because I geek out all the time on all the. This new information that we have access to in ways that we can understand the body even fuller and our sleeping patterns and the amount of force we can produce and all these different cool tools. But it's just more information for how I operate and how I can optimize so many different facets of the human body. So I totally geek out on that. That's what drives me. I'm very performance minded. And definitely the getting into breathing and, and slowing down and mindfulness and. And that's. That's been the biggest tackle, you know, for me to, you know, spearhead and so that's.

That's more.

Most of my focuses these days is like how can I create more space and, and be more present with all this stuff I'm working on.

You mentioned flow. You. Did you read Rise of Superman or have you.

No, but I've heard of it.

Oh. Oh man, I can't.

This flow state is very elusive, right?

Yeah.

Pro athletes try to attain it.

Yep.

Actually the team at Muse just built it into sunglasses. They built in the temporal of monitoring to sunglasses so that athletes can do it like before they drop in on a bowl when they're snowboarding or whatever it is.

So you, you haven't interviewed Kyler or Jamie Wheel, any of those guys yet?

They're on my list.

Oh, bro, for sure. We'll send you over to the. Because those were amazing interviews and those guys, what they're talking about right now. And you'll dig this then because what I was so fascinated. I read Rise of Superman first and then I did Stealing Fire and Rise of Superman. It tripped me out because I remember as a kid, I used to watch like, BMX racing. Like, Rad was like one of my favorite. Like.

I just interviewed Dan McDonough, who was in that movie, the redheaded kid. I just interviewed him for my other podcast. That's a trip. Look at this. Look at this. Full circle.

That's so crazy, dude.

That's.

That's crazy.

I'm the only one that hasn't seen that movie.

And he makes fun of us.

And as an adult, right, you guys are all connected to. Because your kids, right? As an adult, I'm like, what is this movie? I put, it's a shitty movie, but it's great when you're a kid. It's one of the.

It has the best. Come on, bro. It's.

You don't have. Is it Rocky four level montage.

Well, it's different, okay? You know, if you're.

If you're spinning, you can't. You can't go Rocky BMX pipe.

You know, if it's.

It's.

It was bmx. So my point was, what I. What I found so fascinating about it was I remember being a kid, being into that, watching all that stuff, and I remember the first time a backflip happened, it was, whoa, such a big deal. And then it took years for someone to do a double backflip. And then you never thought it would even be possible that. That dirt bikes could do that. They don't do that, dirt bikes. They're too heavy. It doesn't make sense. Like, I didn't think the physics exist. I didn't think that was physically possible to happen.

Yeah.

And when that happened and then. And they talk about this in Rise of Superman and nothing else, and nothing else in life have we accelerated as fast as we have in extreme sports. The. The growth as far as records, breaking records and on everything on all sports that we've ever done the last 20 years in extreme sports. And they attribute that to getting the. Forcing yourself in a float, say, die. Do or die. You're upside down with a motorcycle like you. You better slow down some.

Pretty high stakes.

Yeah.

High stakes. Right. And. And so that's what they're finding out. And they. These, these athletes and Red Bull's heavily invested in this. Like, that's where a lot of their big. Their money goes.

They're spending a lot of money on helping people get into that flow state.

They're building. They're building some badass facilities. Yeah. Facilities all over the country.

You know, I can only imagine, you.

Know, who's investing a lot of money on getting people into that flow state and who's like really pioneering that. You look at tech tech in terms of like Silicon Valley tech, like those companies, I mean though they, they're starting to re like Halo. They are experimenting what's happening and some of the experiments are working, some of them aren't. But because all of them are competing for this talent, they're really trying to maximize every bit of frickin brain power that Canada's people.

An incredible resource for. What you're talking about is there's is a digital health. It's rock health. Rock health. You can see where all the money's going and all of the.

Oh shit.

Wellness fitness. You can see who's spending money on what.

Oh and there's your trend reader as your predictor.

Oh yeah. So yeah, if anybody listening is like I wonder what's going on with wellness and fitness and digital health.

Like venture capitalist money that they pour.

Into different follow the money in any industry.

Right.

And so that's, that's a good place to go. But you're right, like it's all going there because people are realizing, oh my God. Someone mentioned this at Bledso's talk today. Our attention is the new currency. That's, that's really what's going to be most valuable.

Great statement. That's 100% accurate statement.

I think it was the guy sitting next to. I forgot his name but I remembered his quote.

It was.

Yeah, it was Bledsoe. Shout out to that guy.

Shout out to the guy who said the cool quote. But, but the same thing happens with our data. So what we're see in the fitness industry is like data is the new oil. And, and the CEO of Under Armour said that at CES this year, data is the new oil. Attention.

So why did Nike abandon it?

Because they were beat years ago. They got the tech. Under Armour bought Endomondo, my fitness pal Matt, my run. They have the ecosystem. It's 200 million plus too late.

Right?

It's too late. All the changes that we're going to see in the next three years have already been decided. And I'm not saying that that there shouldn't be more innovation, but if you look at the where we're going, like we all have on us right now, like you have a watch, I have a watch. We use technology every day so we.

Get to be more open now trip off this, right? So we're talking about like the behavior like we need to really change people's behaviors on a fundamental Level.

Yeah.

There's no company on earth that I can think of that doesn't have more data on its users than Facebook.

Of course.

Imagine if Facebook got an.

I believe. I believe they all dominate the. I've said that for so long.

You imagine if there's like virtual fitness.

Coaches through Facebook, they would know everything about you. They'd know what you said, your comments.

You will. You would be able to match the trainer and client to perfect a level of like, all the things you've liked over the last 20 years. Like, oh, by the way, your trainer looks like this, that. That all these things that you are into, you talk about you. The things you buy. I mean, it's. We've been cattling ourselves for the last, what is it, 20 years now? How long we had it now? How long we been in Facebook?

Not. Hasn't been 15 maybe.

I think 2006 was Facebook, dude, it's nothing.

Facebook, you're thinking my space.

10 years ago.

It's only been 10.

So they have 10 years of data on us. Yeah. So in 10 years, imagine.

But they're the most informed company on its consumers by far than anybody ever has in the history of the world. And there's what, a billion users on Facebook? I mean, if they were a country, massive and they know everything. You imagine if they were able to get in the fitness industry or work that information somehow learn how to get that information and put it together, they'd be incredibly successful.

I think it goes back to where we're talking about. Just because they know something to people, how are they going to create the bid from like having data and knowing to making people take an inspired choice.

Right.

There's still ambiguity there. Like, we don't exactly.

There's a lot of mystery there still.

There's still a lot of mystery.

There's levels of awareness that that person has to get to before they're even ready for that and that. And everyone's on different levels. So that's the part that's tough. That's what makes it so challenging, I think, think is to speaking to so many people. It's what we have our greatest challenge. It's so hard to. When we know, we know that each person has a special message that they need for themselves at whatever point they are in their journey. And to me, it's all that's. It's just trying to help everybody get to that next level of awareness and whether that be their relationship with food or the relationship with exercise or the relationship with themselves.

Well, you know, I'll tell you. So we, you know, very heavy in the whole, like, cosmetic side of fitness. Mainly because my goals were extremely. They were based on the cosmetic. I wanted to build muscle. So I was very. In that whole world of build muscle, burn body fat and all the supplements and stuff that surround them. And when you, you know, you look at all of that and you see how ineffective it was, but how much people wanted to buy it. You know, one of our messages really is trying to how do we get those people? How do we get those people? Which is most people, most people who are like, I want to work out really have goals that work really well for these retailers, for these marketers. And, you know, how do we get to those people? Because their goal right now is they just want to lose weight. They don't really care. Like, you talk about wellness and loving yourself, and I said, like, look, I need to lose £20. You know, how do you get those people to where you can communicate to them and give them the right information? So now they've made lifelong changes.

I think you have to embody some kind of polarizing viewpoint that people can connect to. Really? That's. Polarization is what draws audience. You don't have to be a dick. You don't have to be like the guy that used to attention fat.

Get their stupid.

You just got to get their attention because that's the new currency. So, like, you guys being you is what draws people to your podcast and what draws people to your online programs and everything. And it's what I'm in the process of creating with Wellness Force. Like, I'm still getting clear on exactly what is that channel like. I know I want to have people live life well, but what is my polarization?

Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about your business and your podcast and what made you go that direction. And, you know, what are you liking about it so far? What are you figuring out where you at right now?

I love podcasting is the most beautiful medium because you're in someone's ear, you're able to reach them in a way that no, never in history has this been able to be a real thing. And so I'm most excited about reaching people where they are, in their busy ass, life in the car, whatever they do. And really, like with Wellness Force, what I want to do is I want to give people things they can trust. I want to give people tools so they can live life well. And that's the message behind it. And whether that's mindfulness, whether it's Exploring physical wellness or emotional wellness. It's bringing on people. Like, I'm stoked to share this episode. This is something that people get to know because these are all the things that they won't hear if they go online. Right now. We have so much information. The hardest thing, it's almost like we have so much info that we don't have enough info because it's too hard to find the right stuff that we do actually trust.

I don't remember what movie it was, but where this guy's walking down the street and all these ads just. Just pelt him in the face, you know, as he's walking down, and they're all, like, super targeted to him. And it's on this crazy level. I just feel like when you're on the Internet, that's what it is. That's what you're experiencing. Like, just constant. A barrage of ads hitting you, and. And people just don't really know how to navigate to solid information anymore.

But the cream will rise to the top. I was at onit last night, and Sean Stevenson had a question from the audience, and they were like, if we're really, you know, caring about what we do in health and wellness, how do we know that we'll be successful? What divides the good from the great? And he was like, get a massive body of work under you. Do something for years and years and years. Be consistent. Be truthful. Be genuine. And when somebody finds you years from now, they'll look back at everything you've created, and they'll be like, wow, this person really cares. And if your message has any kind of polarity or polarization, they'll trust you even more if they're part of your tribe, because they'll just love who you are authentically. Right. And so I'm in the process of creating that. So I'm at, like, 120 right now on the podcast. I've interviewed some incredible people that, like, we all respect. And so I'm really interested in figuring out my specific voice. And I don't even care. Like, I'm just being honest with you guys right now. I think a lot of people try to have all their shit together.

Yeah.

And, like, be perfect. But this is such a cool. I don't know, maybe you guys.

Sorry. Have you identified your polarization? What you. How you.

Yeah, I think. I think really, like, right now, for me, today, 2017, my polarization is around the people that don't think emotional intelligence and emotional health have anything to do with our physical fitness. That's my Polarization, I think the, that's been in our industries for a long time has been like, eat less, move more, suck it up. You know, do your best, work hard and everything.

Great new days off beast mode.

Right?

But it's, but it's, but it's like how does that take into effect our stress load, our cortisol, our emotional health, our decision making power, our decision fatigue, all these things that we've learned from like incredible people like Paul Check. You know, just the way that wellness affects us is so different now because we're in an age of technology where our attention and currency constantly under attack for our attention bandwidth. So we have to approach wellness in a completely new way. There's no way that we can compare where we are now to 10 or 20 years ago when maybe the whole calories in, calories out model worked. Then I don't know.

Well, we've, we've. Okay. I mean the, the numbers are easy. They're simple is what I should say. Not easy. They're simple. We know people know what they need to do. Generally, they might not be super informed, but generally to be healthier, they know they should move more, they know they should eat less. They know it's better to eat more vegetables, they know it's better to eat less processed foods. They know these things. But what they're missing is what people who are, who've done it for a long period of time, people are consistent people who love it. What they're missing is what those people have. And they have a different experience with food and with exercise. They experience exercise not as, gosh, I need to move, but like, I can't wait to move. I mean, this is so much better than watching YouTube or you know, Netflix or going on the Internet and Facebook or whatever or you know, this is what I really enjoy doing. They have a different connection, same thing, same move. Now people are on this side or running or moving or walking or exercising or whatever, same thing on the other side. But for some reason they have a different connection. And that comes from what you're talking about. It doesn't come from here's your numbers, move more, eat less. Here's your packaged food, now you're eating less calories. We've already answered the problem. That is not the answer. The answer is getting those people to connect to those things in ways to where that's what they prefer to do. And then it's easy.

It also comes from intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. If you look at self determination theory, intrinsic motivation is sustainable for A lifetime extrinsic motivation is dependent on everything else. I want to look sexy for my wedding. I want to look sick for the beach. Whatever it is, like, that's temporary. And I can remember the first time I tried to lose weight. It came from anger. I was pissed off.

Most of us are, if we're honest with ourselves and we share this on the show all the time. What drove all of us to most of our success in fitness and in other things was our insecurities. Let's be honest. I mean, I was the skinny kid who didn't want to get made fun of for being so skinny. And that's what put me in the weight room, hammering the weights like crazy, nonstop. Sal was the same way. You know, each. Each of us have had these insecurities. And in fact, if I'm honest with myself, man, I was a fitness manager for 10 years. I must have had hundreds of trainers that work for me. All of them, the. The. The ones that everybody looks up to have some of the most. Most issues that they're still dealing with. You know, here these trainers are training these clients, but a lot of them are. They still are finding themselves. They don't realize. And that's what I have a hard time when I look at the fitness industry as a whole, especially when you look at social media, when you look at, like, Instagram and. Which I know that's bad because that's not an example of the entire fitness industry, but the direction we're going with everything being on social media and having to be connected that way. It's the new website. Yeah, it is. It's a new website. It's now I'm starting to see. And it's sad because there's people like you and us and like this great place we're at, Paleo fx, but you're still seeing us. We're losing the race still, because you've got all these trainers that are pouring out terrible information because they don't know better, because they still have a long ways to go in their. Their own personal journey. Well, hopefully they figured out the mathematical piece they under. They figured out protein, carbs, fat, you know, if it fits your macros, train hard, beast mode. And it got them to where they. But they have so much deeper shit they have to get through.

We just got to be louder, I think, and be actually more effective. We gotta be more effective. We just have to be more effective at communicating. I mean, you were talking about being motivated by anger, but obviously you're not angry anymore anymore. But you're doing it still. How did you move past that?

Such a great question. I found something bigger than me. I think anger is always about us. It's a selfish thing. We're pissed off. We're pissed off at our mom or dad or whoever it was that didn't give us what we think we needed. Meanwhile, radical ownership in life comes from just accepting what is. And so when we accept what is, the anger goes away. And it's not about just us. Mind pump, wellness force, whatever word. Paleo effects is not about the entity. It's about what the entity is serving. So I feel like that's the true answer.

So you just. You just no longer angry because you. Was it the difference between exercising and eating right because you hated yourself and exercising eating right because you loved yourself?

I think it was facing the anger that I had inside that made me eat in the first place. It was understanding that the anger is what made me have these bad decisions be in my life, like food or even, like, you know, there was a phase where I was drinking a lot too. Even as a trainer. I would, like, train clients all day, and then I would go drink and party at night, and then I'd wake up, you know, three hours later and go train 10 sessions. And it's like I was living a false duality. So how did I transition? I transitioned by taking real ownership of my anger and apologizing to people that I had upset.

Oh, wow.

Going through a few different specific. One of them was called Mitt in Los Angeles. That was pretty powerful experiential learning places where you can release stored anger and take radical ownership. A lot of people go to landmark for this, but I did a few of those and that made the big difference. And I'll tell you, even more transparency like, that anger was still there. The first five to six years I was training, the anger was still driving me.

Did you apply that when you were pissed off and you were a trainer? Did you find yourself? Were you looking back now, were you training people not as good as you could have? Because you were.

If I could give people back for the first two or three years of me being a trainer, I would love to.

Yeah.

Because I, you know, I'd get just hammered them. Well, I, I, you know, we, we'd do an assessment and mobility and then I'd periodize them and I'd ramp them up and they'd be like, sweaty and then they'd be stoked. But then I would just crush them because I felt like that's what they wanted, right? But I didn't have the emotional awareness or the intelligence enough to figure out what do they actually need?

Need?

Yeah, you know, like what do these people really need? And so if I'm honest with that, the first three years of my training, I would probably give the money back.

Oh, that's what I mean. I mean, yeah, yeah. And that's a lot. That's still, there's a ton of, that's the, ton of trends and that's, that's what's hard for me is to sit back in silence when I see a lot of this stuff on, like I said, social media, where these, these train trainers and they have air quotes are, you know, because some of them are just virtual coaching trainers and they're giving out all this information because they got, you know, 2 million followers. The amount of people that they're impacting and you're, and I know what they're setting them up for. And if I, and I can't come on there and say anything because that's, that's not the tactful way for me to do it. All I can do is to continue to try and provide good information where we're at. But it's. Talk about a challenge when we live in this, you know, this fake virtual world. I mean, I don't know how many times I've met somebody who, you know, I'd seen on social media and they put off this facade that, that, you know, this, this life of training this way. I mean, half of these, these guys and girls are shooting photos in a six week window and they have all this professional. Spread them all. Yeah. Spread them out through the entire year. And they're putting this, and they're making people believe that this is how they look year round. And they've got it all together and you guys got to train harder. If you got to want it bad enough, you don't want it enough. If you don't have the. And it's just, it's an illusion. Yeah, it's a total illusion. And it's, and I think it's making things worse before it's making it better. I mean, with all the technology and all the great tools we have and what we've learned about the body and where science is coming, the fact that obesity is still on the rise.

Well, you make a good point because people's issues with body image are, and I've read statistics on this now with kids, especially young girls, is just getting horrible.

35 minutes to plan the right selfie.

Yeah, it's getting really Bad because they're going through Instagram and going through all these pictures and it's like, fit chick that looks a certain way, Perfect angle, perfect lighting, whatever. Next, next, next.

Get mad when. When their friend tags them and they don't look good.

Dude, think about it this way. Like, when we were kids, it was bad. There was still lots of body image issues. My God, you know, 20, 25 years ago. But that. And a lot of that was based on magazines that kids saw. Sometimes, like, they're looking at their phones all day. Like, we're. We're dealing. We're gonna. I think we're gonna have to deal with inundating an epidemic of body image issues. And my one thing that makes me hopeful is I'm seeing a trend. And I don't think it's not huge yet, but I'm hoping that this is the direction everything goes of just being real. Realism. You're starting to see a little bit of backlash to the whole perfect, you know, whatever. And I'm hoping that continues because, I mean, I have a daughter.

Here's where you have to ask yourself, is, is it really though? Or is it in our world? It seems like, you know, when we look at our small little bubble.

I'll tell you why I think it's a trend, a real trend, because celebrities that were once untouchable now will do their own live Instagram video or their own live picture, and they're posting their own stuff, and you're humanizing themselves. And I think that's a strategy. Now it's become a strategy to separate yourself or make yourself look as. Which is fine. I like that strategy. Keep getting more real. Keep showing yourself. And you're more unflattering. Whatever. So that these people looking through these pictures, these kids or whatever, aren't developing these horrible.

See, I don't know. I don't know if I think it's a trend. I think it's just the counterculture to. To that. And it's. You know, the pendulum has swung this far and now it's trying to swing back. And we'll probably go the other extreme. I don't know if it's an actual sustainable type of trend versus it's just the answer because. And we know that what, meditate. Meditative businesses and like that. Your retreats and. Sure, yeah, those are up by like 80%. I mean, and that's because we're getting so plugged in that we're not disconnecting. And so now people are having to go find these places. Dude, I Haven't really just breathe and do some stuff at home.

I have an online client that just went and did a digital detox.

Right.

It's like, it's like it's exploding.

But what I'm saying is, what's unfortunate, it's exploding as another band aid to what the real. What the real problem is going.

Well, the real problem. Problem is that people are hungry for experiences.

Right.

People want experiences that make them feel great.

Yeah.

They want to have fun. They want to enjoy their life.

That's why Soul Cycles.

So yeah, of course there's an 80% increase in retreats and things like that because people are thirsty for something real that they can actually have fun with instead of just like being connected on social. I mean, how many times have people reached out to you and been like, I love what you're doing or you know, I really connect with this message. But like if they were to meet you in person, person, like this is a conference you guys will be at and people will be coming up to you and meeting you. Like that's what we're all here for.

Yeah.

And that's what you can't get online. So these tools, this social, this tech, whatever, it's the intention behind it. I think people forget that. I think people forget that a lot.

Well, and it's, it's easy for all of us in here to say this because we're a different generation. I mean, you talk about Generation Z now, which they came, they come out with Snapchat like they don't know anything other other than that. So. So it's hard to get that the message that you're trying to get across and we're trying to get across is only getting more difficult, I think as time goes on. Because these kids, they don't know how to detach. Yeah. And it's getting pumped faster and harder at a much quicker. So even if we are doing all these good things and meditation is on the rise, I feel like it's a never. We can't win because of how they're brought into this world immediately. And I think that's the, the, that's the conundrum that we're all in is how do we, how do we impact those people and tell them that when they've never seen anything but that they don't know different, you know, different. We all, we grew up like you said in pager era. I knew it was like to go knock on a kid's door and say, hey, do you want to come out and play? Like, you know, yeah, but these kids don't know that that and that that.

Reflects to every area of our life. Amanda Steinberg, she came on the show and she was talking about how people really want women. Specifically they want men to be analog in a digital world. Analog meaning old school. They want men to physically go up and talk to them. And people are scared to do that now. It's like who cares if you get rejected? Like train your nervous system to get rejected and make it okay. And that's the scary part that social media, it's creating this false facade where people can have perfect selfies and perfect life. You get the freaking highlight reel of who they are. But what's missing right now is the vulnerability piece.

Yeah.

Where it's like, hey, even as men, like men are scared to approach women more now than they've ever been before.

Right.

Because they can just go get whatever they want from social. They can just go get that same neural response from social.

Right.

And that's the scary part. It's the same thing with porn. It's the same thing with anything that's.

Just too easy, too easily accessible.

We need to become a little bit, a lot more delayed in our gratification.

Well, you know that like erectile dysfunction is, is at an all time highs.

Of course it is at a younger.

Age, 20 years old, getting that never existed before.

You're literally training the brain that way. I mean it's, they've actually shown physical changes in the brains of young men who watch lots of porn online. It's a, it's a, a system of perception.

Andrew Hill. Andrew, Dr. Andrew Hill talks about this.

It's a system of perception that was based on a certain level of scarcity and non variety. Just like the system of the way we, when we perceive food. Same thing by the way. Food and porn, very closely connected. I'll make that connection for you.

And together. Awesome.

But like a ham sandwich on your.

Chest, I mean that's my Saturday night.

Right. Hand on the sandwich. But yeah, you know when, when with, with porn. Right. These, these guys are seeing these images one after another and opening up different tabs. And it's creating a scenario in the brain that would have never existed through most of human civilization where they're getting this constant new stimulus, this, what do they call it, novelty effect. And it trains the brain to only react that way to where you have these 20 year old guys who are having issues getting a boner with their girlfriend. When you know that's never supposed to happen at that age. The same thing is True for food, we evolved with these perceptions for tastes and, you know, palatability that were. That evolved in scarcity. You know, like if you tasted something sweet in nature, it was likely accompanied by vitamin C. Vitamin C otherwise is quite hard to find. So you better believe you crave the fuck out of that sweet taste. And when you found it, you ate the hell out of it, because you're probably not going to find it again for a little while. But now we live in the modern world where you have whatever you want all the time. Just like with porn.

Anytime you want it.

Anytime you want it. Any flavor, anything you want. I mean, mean, we engineer food at such a scientific level, the amount of money that goes into engineered processed food is insane. Like, these foods, there's. There aren't foods that exist in nature that are this palatable on all these different areas. Sweet, salty. The. The way it tastes right color, the smell. Like they have really never.

I share on mind pump all the time. I don't think I even ate any fruit until I was like 25, because I was allowed cereal and candy and.

Like, man, I grew up on welfare. Seriously.

So did I.

So, okay, so like, we're talking kick cereal, government cheese, and that was basically it. So, like, for me, a big treat would be when we got to go to Burger King.

Right.

Like, that was awesome.

Right.

And so that was what was wired into my limbic system.

Yeah.

So my. That novelty got coded into my limbic brain. And so now as an adult, I just get to be aware of that stimuli all the time.

It's in there.

But there's physical change.

Well, I still trip out on the day. I mean, I remember it clear as day, and I never. I never noticed it as much until when I got into competing. When I got into competing and it forced me to be unbelievably disciplined and eating all whole foods for, like, all the way up into a show. It had.

So it's like 12 weeks.

Yeah. So it cleaned my system out. And I remember, like, biting into a strawberry one day and being like, never in my life did I like strawberries. It was just. I didn't even care for. Hey, candy all. Exactly. They tasted like nothing to me. Did. I didn't. I couldn't taste a blueberry strawberry.

Your brain literally could not. It just didn't register because it wasn't used to that little of that, you know, those.

Yeah. What is this?

Yeah. And. And when that. And when that happened for me and like, I've. And I haven't craved or wanted Candy and God knows how many years now. But I never knew that I could love fruit as much as I love fruit now. Because I was, I had, I've totally desensitized my body to, to that sugar. And now because I was getting such an overload of it all the time. And so I find that really fascinating. And how many people probably go through that and don't realize it's like you may actually really like that type of stuff if you would just clean your system out.

I think this is why a lot of these 30, 60, 90 day challenges work so well. It's because it cleans out and kind of does a hard reset on the limbic brain, which is why people go through frenetic withdrawals.

Yes.

You know, they start scratching at the.

This is why, this is why fasting. Fasting is actually quite effective for a lot of people. Now, of course, fasting, if you have really bad relationships with food, fasting can actually make things worse. Of course it can lead to extreme forms of, you know, starvation and whatnot. But fasting itself, if you, for a lot of people, it does that. Like you fast, you don't eat for a while, things feel heightened because they become heightened. Literally, things change in your brain. And then when you go back to eating, rather than becoming hedonistic and eating all this, you know, quote unquote bad food again, start eating the healthy stuff and you would be surprised at just how palatable, you know, kale is. You know, it's. Here's a trip off this. They've actually have evidence that suggests very strongly that infants, their brains learn what to find palatable based on what their mother ate when they were in utero. Now, from an evolutionary standpoint, this makes perfect sense, right? A baby being born into the world will probably should be find the food that they're going to be eating when they're born, or as an adult, as a child, palatable. So the brain actually starts to wire itself in utero based on these signals sent from the mother. But a lot of people don't realize that those. That brain's wiring, although a lot of it is done by the time you're a certain age, a lot of it is malleable. So you can change a lot of these behaviors, or at least the cravings that lead to these behaviors quite a bit. With being smart about what you're. And understanding that is very strong for some people. Like when I had clients, one of the most successful techniques I used is I was very good at informing people the actual science of what's happening. So here's what's happening in your brain when you're eating these sugars. Here's what happens when you stop. And you know you're gonna get a better dopamine release now with strawberries versus, you know, candy that you were used to before. And we'll go down the list, and I'll explain it to them. And then when they understood from a scientific level, then they could be like, oh, that's why I'm feeling these things. And they became more connected to what they were feeling. And then from there, I was able to get a lot of them to change their habits.

What I'm feeling from you is people have to unlearn what they've learned. And it goes back to, like, the beginning of our conversation when we were talking about emotional intelligence and what we absorbed, years one through seven. Everything we take in, we have to unlearn as adults. So what are the things out there that can help us do that? That's a real question.

Yeah.

What are the things that can help us relearn what we've learned that doesn't.

Well, I'll tell you something that. And I was actually searching for you to drop this tool, because for me, one of the best tools that ever came out was. Well, it was originally Body Bug, before we.

Yeah.

And I'll tell. I'll tell you how to me, that has hustled those like crazy, Ev. Yeah, I know.

And that's, like 200 bucks.

And it was 404.99 when they first came.

And then I'd sell them a box of Apex cookies.

That's right. Apex cookies.

Don't worry.

They're.

They're good for you.

But what, what I, what I realized was a big game changer for me was when this one hour, you know, I, I. I prided myself so much on being great at programming and, you know, putting together this diet. And I realized, like, all the other hours in the day, like you earlier, that they don't see me, and I started thinking to myself, like, man, I'm really not helping these people whatsoever. Like, it's. It's crazy. When I showed them their Fitbit and I would bodybug back then. Yeah. And I would show how many steps that they would have in a day. And it tripped me out that the average American was stepping about 4,000 steps a day. And if we were to go out and we'd walk for one hour, all of us right now, literally just walking for one hour, we would step, like, between six and 7,000 steps. So that means that my client, in the entire day, that they're awake, that they are awake for 24 hours, they didn't even walk around and move for more than an hour of time. And that just was like, holy shit. And I'm putting all this focus on how hard I'm working them for that one hour that they see me. If I could just get my people to increase their movement and activity throughout the day and throughout the week, week, I can impact them. And that alone was such a game changer.

Well, you know, I would say.

And that was just the awareness.

That's it.

It's the awareness. It was just because in their mind they're busy. I was here, I had to pick up the kids and I want to do this. I started at 6am I didn't get done till midnight.

You don't understand, right?

Yeah. You don't understand. I was, I'm moving, I'm busy out, I'm active.

You're not moving.

Yeah.

And then when you look at it and you, you help them connect, connect those dots. To me, that was, that was a major game changer for helping people put that piece together and, and help them be aware of how active they really are.

Yeah.

And, and then understand you're always playing.

Catch up when you actually see them.

Well, this, this is the number one thing. It's like when people get little reminders, little touch points, little nudges to make better choices through smart coaching, through wearables. That's a, that's a huge difference. Difference. Like why do you think that Lifetime Fitness and all these major chains are putting so much money into wearables and tracking right now? It's not because there's not a huge opportunity. There is a multi billion dollar opportunity, massive that we're talking about that I've been making work for the past year and a half. But the only way it's going to work is if somebody's committed emotionally first. So data is awesome, but I feel like our whole show we've just talked about awareness, Right? It's about the awareness, dude. So if you have the important part, you have the tech to uplift the awareness. Awesome. But if you just want to be, you know, savvy on tech, that's not gonna help you, right?

No.

Right. No, that's it. That's like, to me, that's what we find wrong with Ike. It fits your macros is, you know, it's the first level of awareness is being able to track and understand that. But then if you get Stuck in there, which I found in the competing world. This was crazy. You know, I remember when I first got into it, I thought, oh, man, it's gonna be great. Like, I'm gonna be hanging out with the most elite physiques out there. I can't wait to pick these brains, like, get around him.

And I remember brilliant.

Getting my first show and like, asking guys questions that have done this, you know, nine shows under their belt. I'm on my first show and by myself, no coach anything. And I'm talking to these competitors and asking a lot of questions about their nutrition and how they were training. And I'm thinking, like, what? You have a coach? Your coach told you? Okay. And then. And then I remember thinking, like, well, okay, this is the amateur level. Maybe as I work my way up and then I get to the professional level, I'm thinking, okay, these are going to be the guys. If I mean, these are pros. They all cover the magazines. Like, these dudes are gonna know the. And I remember getting in there and asking the same questions and realizing, like, wow, these guys are. Not only are they really don't understand anything more than how to work really hard and restrict the out of. Out of calories, they would go on these crazy binges afterwards. I'm on. I'm on season, off season. And it's like that relationship that this elite person who's got millions of followers on covers of magazines giving out all this information to help people have one of the worst relationships with food and exercise than the average client that I would take over. And they're the ones delivering this message. And that's when I realized how fucking bad it was that the. The elite of elite that people looked up to or that we look at it on our magazines, have some of the worst relationships.

I mean, looking at tech for the last, you know, five years, one of the most effective things that I've seen that has come out that's actually worked. Not sold old. It did sell more than anything also. But it also got a lot of people moving. It got a lot of kids moving. Was the Pokemon Go thing. Oh, yeah, it worked. It legit.

We Fit actually did pretty decently.

We Fit did another one. Let me tell you something.

Yeah.

Do you know how hard it is to get kids to do outside now? It's like a punishment. The opposite of when we were kids. When I was a kid, it was.

Like, you get to go outside and play now.

Yeah.

Now I'm like, get your ass. I mean, go outside.

Attention currency, right?

Yeah.

Hell no.

I gotta be outside. For how long? 30 minutes.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

And they stand outside, don't even know what to do.

They have to win things to go outside.

Well, you just picture your kid right now, like, go outside. He's just standing at the door for 30 minutes waiting for Pokemon.

Bizarre.

Where are you?

Okay, man, I'm done.

But, you know, Pokemon Go did a good job in the Wii Fit. Did a good job of getting people.

What happened to that? Did it keep. Did it die?

Yeah, it might have died. But look, there's a ton of game gamification.

Yeah.

Ways to make kids move more. There's a ton of them out there, and we're seeing it. I got hit up on Twitter by this guy. He's a. He's PE coach in the east coast, and he uses wearables. And they have this big screen and they all have to jump around so that the characters move on the screen in a more fun way. So we can use technology for these kids to make them realize, like, oh, when I.

That's how we're gonna get them.

See, that's gotta get them early. We gotta get them early.

It gets it. It brings it back to play, too, which is, you know, it's a lot of what. Where we've gone away from fitness, I feel like, you know, from physical education, obviously, we've kind of moved past, like, even putting a lot of money into that direction. Like, we've taken programs out of school and, like, different options for kids to have to even be physical anymore. And that's the kind of stuff that gets me hopeful and that if we can create, recreate that sort of that fun vibe, that feeling that's inviting for these kids, that, you know, they're obviously getting stimulated like this from their Xbox, you know, can we just take that same sort of feeling in that.

That.

That fun thing to do with your friends and now make it physical?

You have to force them at first. I hate to say that I know your kids. You know, I mean. Well, I went to Yosemite with my kids, right? We're out there, and it's fucking gorgeous. And at first my kids are like, you know, what are we doing? When can we go back to the hotel where we have the WI Fi? And I'm like, guess what, kids? This entire trip, no electronics at all, no tv, no nothing thing. And we're out there, everybody cried. So at first, I was like the worst dad in the world, right? And I'm like, oh, my God, I'm being so. You know, but let's see what happens. And we're walking. I think we were gonna go see Bridal Veil. I think is the waterfall which is fucking beautiful. And we're walking over there and there's these huge boulders along the way. And I'm telling my kids like we'll go, you know, go play, go climb. And they're like I don't want to go. I don't want to. And then I'm thinking to myself, I'm like why am I not climbing? Like why am I standing over here telling him what to do? So I'm go climb some boulders. So next thing you know, they joined me and I swear to God the rest of the trip my kids were begging me to take their shoes and socks off so they could feel the grass with their feet. They were running around outside. It was like pandemonium. Luckily nobody got hurt because of course you're big paranoid parent nowadays anything without a helmet is dangerous, right? But it was, it was great.

Could you imagine putting his kids in helmets when they're just running outside a field?

Come here.

He's like wiping his face real quick.

But. But you know, they had a blast. I think you have to fucking force them. And it's funny too because you've got this, this epidemic of like ADD and adhd and it is an epidemic like kid like kids are prescribed a high level. One of the best things you could do by the way, this is clinical, 100% proven. Your doctor will tell you, even the doctor that's prescribing you the rillen will tell you this. The best thing you could do. One of the most effective things you could do that's non drug is get your kids to make move. It's so effective at dealing with add.

I was going to bring this up earlier where it was like leading by example. If you lead by example, like your kids watch what they do way more than listen to you. So I have a 13 year old nephew and it was like really hard for him to do certain sports. But then when he started having fun playing the sport he was like in momentum. He was loving it, but he needed that push. And that's parents job. Like I'm not a parent so I have mad respect for parents. But I can only imagine what it would be like like if the parent wasn't leading by example and if the parent didn't want to make the kid feel uncomfortable to make them physically active. That's a recipe for disaster.

Well, which is another issue that poor trainers have to deal with right now. It reminds God I remember this time, I had this, this guy come in and he brings. His kid was around 10, 10 or 11 years old, and he was overweight, and he was buying him personal training. And he's like, you know, he needs to lose weight. He needs this. And I'm like thinking, like, I'm cringing, like, listening to the way I'm like, talking in front of him.

His kid is quivering.

You know what?

I'm quivering, listening to him going like.

Oh, my God, dude, we all have those clients.

And it's like, you know, and let's be honest, I mean, it's. I. I need. I'm over here as a trainer and I'm trying to make a sale so I can have a client and make money. And I'm thinking to myself, listening to the father saying that, going like, oh, my God, you can't say that. But if I say something right now, I'm going to piss this guy off.

And he's just going to.

He'll either walk out, no buy training.

Then you can't help him at all.

Yeah, I can't. Also, I'm just like sitting here listening. I'm just thinking to myself, I'll wait till he goes, and then I'll hopefully build this kid back up, up. And I'll never forget, I think it was like his second visit with me. And I was going, I was looked with his father wasn't there yet. And I was like, where's your dad? Oh, he might be out in the car. And I said, okay, let me walk you out. I'll walk you out to his car. So you make sure he's there. And he's sitting in the car eating McDonald's, waiting for his kid. Waiting for his kid. So the kid's in the gym working out with me for an hour. He's in the parking lot eating McDonald's, and he opens the door, and I'll never forget that smell just hitting me in the face, going like, dude, what, what are you doing? You think you're doing your kid good because you bought. You spent a thousand dollars on me, you know, to train him and push him, you know, to get him to lose.

You know, I feel so bad, and I feel so bad for those people because you know, that the father hates that about himself so much probably that he's like, you're not going to be this way to his kid. But he doesn't have the, I guess, the strength or the awareness or just even care about himself enough to do. Do it for himself. You know what I Mean, so just like, look kid, you're not going to be like me, I'm spending a thousand dollars, I'm gonna force you to do this. And then they're in their car just feeling shitty and can't really do any makes, it makes you sad, right?

Yeah. People aren't swayed by anything other than emotion. And emotion for kids is watching how their parents behave, period. So like your kids, like you have a, you have a road cut out for you, man, where you're gonna have to really be the example that you want them to be. And that's not always easy easy.

Right.

Especially in this society where your attention is under attack all the time, which then delineates your mindfulness and your awareness. That's the real issue.

Oh, let me tell you, let me tell you, when you have kids, you like, here's a great story. I was driving home one day, had my two kids in the car and was in a bad mood already. So I'm in a bad mood, I'm in the car, I'm driving, pull around the corner and there's these teenage boys playing basketball in one of those, those hoops that you roll out to the middle of the street, you know, ones with a water filled base or whatever.

Yeah.

And they're playing basketball and they kind of slowly get out of the way. And as I'm driving by, one of them throws the basketball at my car and it hits the window next to my daughter and it's boom. Real loud. And I look up and as a father you get real protective, right? And we're talking about like behaving the way you want your kids to behave, right? So I get real protective and I am a, I mean I'm a papa bear 100%. So I flip the bitch, I go back, these kids scatter, I get out of my car and I pick up the frickin basketball hoop and I slam it on the floor like a gorilla. Like, you know, don't ever fuck with me. I get in the car, I get in the car and I'm driving and my son, who's probably 8 at this time, yeah, I think about 8 years old, and he goes, wow. He goes, you got really mad. And I'm like, oh fuck man, I totally the way I act kid. So I'm like, yeah, I did. So I didn't say anything yet. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I got angry. And he goes, why'd you get so angry? And so now I'm trying to think, like, how can I defend like my behavior? Like I Got out of car, and I broke someone's property. So I said, hi. You know, I just got real protective of your sister. I mean, I felt like, you know, they might have hurt her or whatever. And it just makes me get this emotion where I got to go back and just, you know, scare them off or whatever. And he goes, you actually put us in more danger by turning the car around, pulling up to the. To the basketball, you know, hoop, opening the door, getting out of the car. He's like, you actually put us in more danger. And I totally apologize to him. And it really makes you. You want to talk about self awareness. Like, wow, I need to behave in a way that I would want them to behave. And that was such a stupid decision. And that's just a funny example of, you know, one time that happened. But think about all the examples that we give our kids through the way we eat, the way we talk about ourselves. You know, more kids develop eating disorders not because their parents tell them that they're fat, but because their parents constantly talk about how fat they are themselves.

Man, I can remember so many times in my life where my dad would look at his stomach and he'd be like, look how fat your dad is. That's burned in my memory forever. Wow. And I think that's just one example of what a lot of people go through. Like, by the way, he did the best he could. Sure. That's part of the emotional healing is like, just recognizing, like, well, how did his dad treat him? Can I have compassion for that?

Right.

Because there's been many moments in my life like that that I remember that were just, like, burned into, like, cattle prod brain that were just so unhealthy and so not positive for somebody to go through. And you're right. There's always a choice for you as a dad or a mom or whoever it is. Caregiver. There's always a choice, man. But the choice is not always easy. Like, your emotions took over, you know, you lost the awareness, but then you took radical ownership, which that makes it all okay.

And now. And I think hopefully that became the lesson. The lesson was, wasn't go break some when people pissed me off, hopefully the lesson was like, wow, my dad made a bad decision, and he totally owned up to it. And so now maybe if I make bad decisions, I can own up to him.

Like, how powerful is that? Oh, yeah, you know, emotional intelligence.

Do you know how hard it is.

Just your son to ask you that question?

Yeah. I'm thinking, how smart is his son? Ask that Question, right?

Oh, my kid with me all the time like that.

But I say so good though.

Oh, great radio. But I tell, I tell you, man, you, you, you talk about a test. Like I'm all, I'm pissed off, you know, of these stupid kids throwing a basketball that you almost could have broke the window, you know, like I'll go out there and like, you know, incredible Hulk everybody, right? You know, I'm angry about that. And now I've got this eight year old trying to tell me what I did wrong. Nobody wants to hear that from an eight year old. But you know what? When they're right, they're right. I don't give a shit who tells you the fucking message. You can learn from anybody. Sometimes it's a little kid, you know, and you take that message and you go, right, you're right. I gotta change that.

What perspective for him to see it that way? Well, you actually put us in more danger.

You know what's really cool is like you're not the clarity your 8 year old had. We all have that clarity all the time. What gets in the way is like the dirt and the soot of all the distractions we have in life. That's what gets in the way. So why do people need a coach? Because they just allowed themselves to become distracted. Good coaches cut through the and they get you from A to B be. So I think that that childlike intuition is what every coach is really coaching. Right? It's coaching us to get in touch with the inner child.

Do you have, do you have any companies that you watch right now or that you're really intrigued by what they're doing, what's going on with them, or do you follow a lot? Is there a few you really like?

I'm really stoked at this conference to talk more with Dan Party from Human OS because he's blended self quantification with paleo and ancestral lifestyles and he's put those two together other and they've done a ton of research and meta analysis about the Mediterranean diet and just some really solid programs.

Interesting.

So I follow Human os. I think like if we can combine self quantification and natural ways of living, like eating, moving, sleeping, the way that we're designed to, if we can do those two things together, that's going to be the answer to this technological revolution that we're seeing. Tech is not going away.

Right.

And so what I'm trying to figure out, what I'm in the process of learning is like how do we use the other side of the sword where we can cut towards people's progress using technology instead of allowing technology to just make people sedentary and disconnected.

Make it worse.

Or we could just. There's another choice where we just turn our head and don't give a shit. But then technology is going to do whatever it does.

Well, let's talk about how challenging that is as an entrepreneur who's trying to build a business when it's easier for us to buy into the bullshit, the gimmicks and to hop on board with.

All this, make some money quick, but then lose our integrity. No, let's not do that. That. Let's play the longer game. Yeah, you guys are in it for the long game. Yeah, I think, I think the people with the greatest integrity are not interested in how many Instagram followers they can gather.

Right. So Human. Human Force. That's the name of that one.

It's called Human os.

Oh, Human os. Are you familiar with that? Oh, I'm not.

Yeah, yeah.

And they're here. They're here.

I think they're going to have a booth. And, and honestly, you guys, like, I believe I, I know you've talked about nootropics on your show at some point, Right. So Qualia and what Daniel Schmachtenberger is doing, they have a booth at Paleo Effects the way that their nootropics have up leveled people and allowed just the clarity to exist. I mean, talk about like increasing your bandwidth. Nootropics. Dr. Andrew Hill talks about this. Jesse from Smart Drug Smarts podcast talks about this. If we have more decision making power, then we won't succumb to decision fatigue, aka it's 9am or 9pm and we won't look at the chips or a busy mom won't look at the chocolate and make that emotional decision decision because she'll been able to have had more bandwidth for decisions all day long.

Yeah, yeah, I like that. I like the direction of nootropics. I like that they're now talking about the, you know, supplementing your body and mind in a way that helps you become more optimized on a total whole level. I like that message. I just think that, that you can accomplish, or most of that is accomplished through the way you live, the way you think, the way you sleep. And that's the part that I really, really want to focus on. And that's why we're not making any money on supplements right now, because nobody wants to partner with us. We talk about that so often that.

So on the other side of the coin from that. We've been talking a lot about nutrition, but, you know, like to talk about quality of movement and how to provide these better patterns, these better recruitment patterns throughout your day to optimize your posture, to optimize your strength, your mobility, all these types of things. Like, do you see any kind of technological advances in that direction?

I love getting a push notification if I haven't stepped for an hour. Because sometimes if I'm at the computer, let's be real, I'm just, like, working. All of a sudden my wrist buzzes and I'm like, oh, movement snack. I have a trail by my house. I'll just hit the trail for it.

It's crazy how the simplest things, right?

It's the KISS principle that really works. The most basic movement patterns. When we look at, like, Juan Carlos Santana was my mentor back in the day. I went to IHP in Florida and, like, did his mentorship and he's like, listen, we only do a few things. You know, we have level change. We have lunging and twisting and pushing and pulling. That's all we do. So master those things. And you don't need a lot of time to do it. You can do all those in five minutes. Five minutes every couple of hours. Just a quick reminder. Oh, do my movement snack. Boom.

Frequency is key.

Frequency.

Frequency is key. Which we've touched on a few times. Like 13 hours of sedentaryism versus one hour of, like a, you know, a crazy wad or like, doing Murph and then sitting for 13 hours. You know, that's not going to help you. I think push notifications from tech, to answer your question, are huge. That's what I've seen with my clients. Be the most successful is like, they're not with me. But what can I set up for them so that they feel like they're with me? It's the little notification now.

What do you do when they say, when they stop listening to the push? What's the conversation at that point?

Then it's you and me versus your data.

Okay?

It's, hey, how do we partner together to figure out how we can get your data that reflects the progress we both want for you? And are you not keeping your promises to yourself? That's really what it is. But it's not a guilt thing. It's not like, hey, you're not doing your shit. It's more around like, hey, we're committed. In the intake. You told me you wanted this. This is what we need this week for you to get there. Let's do this together. That's what it's really about.

What's a day look like for you? Are you still training a lot of clients?

I don't train in person at all.

Okay. You know everything.

I haven't trained a couple client in four years.

Okay.

In person. But I have a video library I used nudge coach. I coach everyone online and so that's how I keep them accountable. And like tonight before I go to bed, I'm going to look at everybody's stuff and send them quick messages.

Now this is cool because I, I, I did online coaching for about a year and a half and really I did it just so I could get involved in it. See what it was like to try and scale it up. Like how much I could scale it on my own and then what it would take to build something larger than that. Because I see a piece of that feeding into mind pump down the road. And I was, I was really fascinated in the opportunity with it because I think there's a lot of bad coaches out there and there's a lot of ways that I think if you have a lot of footage and content and now some companies that you can use videos and apps to really get connected to somebody and really work on those things. Because let's be honest, the workout part is, is, is a very small sliver of, of the help that they really need from you. Right. So, so I, I think that there, where, where it's going is really cool. What I had a hard time with was once I started getting beyond like 10 to 20 people that, that range.

I thought it's hard to manage.

Yeah, it felt really tough to.

Yeah. I think right now I work with less than 20. I work with like 16.

Okay, so you, okay, you found the same thing.

But the value that I'm giving them is increased accountability, which means I don't have to have so many clients.

Right.

What crushes trainers is, is coaching from 5 in the morning till 10 at night. Right. Because they have to.

Yeah.

In order to make money. But if you can charge enough because you're giving somebody tangible value based on increased accountability, dude, that's the future of fitness.

Right.

That's the future of what all these clubs are trying to do. They see it before anyone else and they're trying to see how they can. You know, there's two ways to look at it. Either parasitic or capitalize on it. Either way they're going to make their money. These clubs, clubs. So how are these clubs going to use virtual coaching compared to this Traditional model that we all know is probably.

To supplement their physical brick and mortar facility. It's probably come in here, work out and you get this online, you know, this virtual.

Oh, I mean support. And we're talking about 24 Hour Fitness. I mean we, we've watched that. They've been doing that for the trainers. I mean, their pay and what a fitness manager makes there now is. It's crazy what it is. It's like an hourly. I think the fitness manager makes like 15 bucks an hour or something like that. They, it's a terrible pay. You can tell that they're, they're trying to go just like they were doing. The sales people.

You think they're trying to eliminate that?

I think, I think they're trying to eliminate all of it. Eventually you'll come in to get your membership, be like, yeah, swipe your card. I want, oh, upgrade to a Virtual coach for six weeks. That costs this much. Virtual coach for 12 weeks cost this month. Oh, I want the fat loss program. Oh, I want the muscle build. And then you'll get, it'll have 24 Fitness app or whatever company we're talking about how will have their app and it'll have all the videos logged in.

And, but you know, it's missing what a human being.

Right, right.

And that's why these people won't let go of old weight.

Yeah.

Because there's no human being watching it. Tech is great. You have to have a human, an educated human directing it, controlling it. So I don't think trainers need to be scared. I just think trainers need to evolve.

Yeah.

Until AI that's it.

Just like don't be so resistant to the changes, you know, like.

Yeah, I, I see a lot of these.

You got to grow with it.

Yeah. I, I, I, I, that's probably how they would do it because they're losing ground right now. These big boxes are losing ground to the small boxes.

Small boxes, they're dying. Orange theory is crushing it because they're creating experience and they're implementing tech. They're using like my zone and all these different tech pieces. So this is, I mean, it's like, it's crazy. We're in this time where there's so much change that it can feel overwhelming for any, like health and wellness Pro. But then we're in this time where there's so much opportunity.

Oh, yeah.

Y so the duality is pretty hard.

Oh, no, I, I'm, I'm excited about some of the nutrition information that's getting out as well. Like all the stuff that we grew up believing about fat, about, you know, what was healthy, you know, what you.

Need, non fat milk, all that stuff.

Like, it's all been turned on its head. I just read, you know, I shared this on our. We have a private forum that we share a lot of these articles that we find. And I read an article that basically the whole sodium, you know, eating too much sodium, you know, that we've been told, you know, by doctors, a lot of it's bullshit. And eating, eating too little sodium is more dangerous for you than eating too much sodium.

Have you guys heard of the Salt Fix? Some guy that just wrote a book called the Salt Fix. I'm gonna try to interview him. Because what you're saying is correct.

Yeah, yeah. And. And I'm. It's like all this information now starting to finally come out and people are starting to question now. Of course, you go to, you know, you go to the supermarket now and you're seeing foods that are, you know, they're trying to market to some of these kind of these buzzwords and these key terms and whatever. And, you know, now you've got supplements geared towards fasting. And here's the new fasting shake. And it's like, that's not fasting, it's a shake. But. But you are getting the information now. Seems to be a little bit better, I think. You know, like paleo, Paleo diet, ancestral diet, Mediterranean diet. Those are all much more accurate in their information.

One cool thing, because you guys asked me, what companies am I following? Human os, Dan Pardee's company, he did this meta study. He came out with a course. And you know what really made the difference. Difference for like blue zones and nutrition wasn't their diet. It was human connection.

Oh, yeah, that was a big one.

Community.

That's what they all had in common.

That was the missing piece. It was more important than the diet itself.

Well, that's what Fitbit, I think, has led, you know, bounds over everybody else that was trying to get into that space. They created that with the intent to pair each other and their friends and their family. And so everybody could kind of cheer on. On and have that sort of.

With a good tool because. With a good tool because Nike made. Try to make it and they made it sexy and it's super, like connectable. But it was terrible technology. It was awful.

And then they just focused athletes, which.

That's why they quit.

Athletes don't need.

Yeah, you could tell. I mean, that's. And that's why I, I could never recommend I remember I went out and bought it. I went out and bought it because I buy all the toys and try them out firsthand, and then I start diving into them. And I mean, it was like, I think it was 45 or 60% accurate to people's, you know, BMR and stuff. So far off, I'm like, that's. That's not helping me.

So I have the blade. I did a split test from the radial pulse to the brachial pulse. And the brachial was so much more accurate because you get a stronger signal, especially people that have, like, tattoos. Like, like, you would not work that well with like a Fitbit. Right. And so it has. It shoots light emitting diode into your skin and it measures back. It's 10 beats off per minute.

That's huge.

It's 10 beats off per minute. So I don't use my heart rate tracking here at all. If I wanted to get, like a really specific heart rate tracking monitor, I would get it at the brachial pulse. But let's be honest. 90% of people just want to let go of weight.

Right?

They're not interested in, like, HRV and all that stuff.

Yeah, that's for your Strava people.

That's. That's the fringe. But then there are people that need the fringe. And I bet you a lot of people listening are wanting some of this heart rate variability data, of course, important to them, but a lot of people, man, they just want to feel better in their body. They just want to feel at home in their body. They want to let go of some weight.

Yeah. Favorite, favorite guest that you've had.

That's a really hard question.

How about the worst?

Let's go. Let's go that way.

All right, I'm going to. I'm not going to say their name. I'm not going to say the same sign language, though. People will figure it out. In my first 10 shows, I interviewed like a bunch of people from the fitness industry because I was just starting out. Like, I didn't have any guests. So I hit up all my friends, you know, and. And one of them, one of them a woman. And it was the most canned, non emotionally open conversation with the same kind of perform better verbiage circuit that she had pushed out for 10 years and that it just made me feel gross to have the conversation. But I think, you know, what I'm really interested in right now is like, physical and emotional wellness. That's my path. That's what I'm trying to learn. I loved Rob Wolf's episode just absolutely. He crushed it. He talked about things that I don't think he's talked about on other shows. I don't know. I haven't listened to your episode yet. Oh, check that out. But. And I also love Tom Bilyeu's episode. I thought Tom Bilyeu crushed it on wellness for us. I think that he's one of the most. When we talk about emotional intelligence and positive psychology, he's one of the top guys. He is up there with the highest business genius.

So I felt. So I think for wellness and that side Paul checks my guy. Tom Bilyeu's been my business guy. I think Tom Bilyeu was like, I'm so fascinated. I was just telling somebody last night, I'm like, if you're not watching what Tom is doing right now, what he's building and you're in. In this space, like, you should be slapped because he's literally doing it before your eyes and he's killing it now, mind you, he's coming off of. He's got a ton of money.

He also has a massive team in Beverly Hills Mansion that run his show.

Yeah, he can afford. He can afford.

You know, we were bootstrapped.

You know, we.

We had all.

All of us.

Well, you also have each other.

Yes, That's.

That's pretty rare, what you guys have created.

Yeah, we need to see, which is.

Why I've, Like, I've really enjoyed this because I can feel that you're. You're team.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. We definitely, you know, who was a great guest that. Who was one of our early guests. And it was in the old studio. So when we first. When we first started. We first started recording, it was in Doug's living room. And then we had this little, like, box studio that we kind of, you know, we foamed up the walls and everything. We're like, this is where we're gonna do our recordings. And he was one of our first big guests. It's Tate Fletcher. He comes in.

Oh, yeah.

And we were like, oh, like, power outage. Yeah, yeah. So we're like, oh, fuck. We're gonna have Tate on the show. Like, he's like, you know, big fans of his. He was a, you know, MMA fighter. He's got caveman coffee. Just cool dude, right? So he comes in and we're like, nobody. He walks in, and the dude made us feel cool. Like, he was just. Everybody kind of chill. We sat down, we started talking. Power goes out like, 30 minutes into the episode. And I'm like, are you kidding me? The power is going out. Like, we have like one of our first big blew it. And you know what? We just kept going, going. Doug turns on his iPhone, freaking light. And Tate's like, no, no, keep going. Let's have a great time. And I'm like, this dude's great, man. It could have been a totally. It could have been a ruined interview, but the guy was like, no, let's keep going. Let's do this. And he's a great guy.

Podcasting is such an art form because anybody can, like, ask questions from a list, right? But to have a real conversation that has direction and has meaning, that's an art form. And that's what I am in the process of getting great at is directing that art form. And I really look up to people like Tim Ferriss and Tom Bilyeu. Incredible interviewer, and he's an incredible storyteller. That's incredible storyteller.

And that's why, I mean, you.

He's a great guest.

I remember the first time that we had him on the show. It was funny because we were just going through something currently. We had been dumping money into something. We had a big event, all this stuff going out. We had a slow, slow week, business. And so I felt the stress on me. And I remember he was in studio and he was talking and I remember being like before the interview, like, my mind was elsewhere. I totally was. And I caught myself and being frustrated with where the business at this and that, and it made me. And I was. And then I also got sucked in to him telling his story. And he pulled me in so much that it took me from being one way, all the way to another extreme. And then I totally reflected on it and went, wow, Mike, I get so focused on the day to day and in the business and like, how awesome is this that I get to ask this man questions, anything I want to ask him. And. And right before that, we had Rob Wolf. Right before that we had Paul Check. We just had. I mean, the lineup that we had in the last. That. Those two weeks and how I was worrying about some like, I mean, I could have spent my whole life and never got to speak to a man of that. That level as far as business intelligence, self awareness, and then someone like Paul Check. And it's like, man, those were really power. He's a really powerful storyteller. Check is awesome too. I mean, I think he was. He's polarizing and not everybody can handle him because of the way he delivers his message. But he's a very intelligent, very self aware man. That was really cool to hang out.

And he's a badass. Yeah, I mean, he's a legit badass.

Well, his results speak for themselves. Right? Well, one of the things he talks about, the four doctors.

The four. The four doctors.

Yeah, he's. He's saying that to us while he was painting in between Deadlift.

Yeah, it was great.

See, and by the way, San Diego local. Okay. Like Vista, that's where the Check In Institute was formed in San Diego. And I have so much respect for him because he was doing that before anyone else.

Right.

People were calling him kooky and crazy.

We look at holistic lifestyle.

Oh, he started that.

He started it.

Okay.

He's like the Jack Lane of wellness. Yes, exactly. That's Paul Check man.

Totally.

Yeah, he's the man we had. Yeah, I had a great time talking with that guy. Really blew my mind. Yeah, we've. It's. Podcasting has been just such a blessing, right?

It's been.

I get to talk to people, people.

It's been the best thing in my life, really. Like, look, it's allowed me to meet you guys.

Fantastic.

Podcasting has been such an incredible relationship maker and memory maker for me. I've been able to grow in so many ways and a lot of it is, is getting out of fear as well. Like sometimes I interview these big people and I'm like, oh, I'm about to interview this. Like, really, I respect this person so much. Don't it up breathe.

Yeah.

Right.

So, yeah, podcasting is awesome, man. It's been such a joy.

How long have you have you been.

Been on? Almost two years.

Oh, good. Awesome.

Yeah, almost two years. So I feel like one of my early mentors. I joined this podcasting group, John Lee Dumas. You probably heard of him, entrepreneur on fire. And he was like, I really found my voice at about a hundred shows and I feel the same way. I feel like I'm like more relaxed now. I feel like I can really connect with somebody and talk about the things that are going to serve someone else instead of just being in my head.

Oh. It took us a long time to get the dynamic of the interview. So we did over a hundred shows by ourselves before we got with each other.

Most of our, when we first started was just us three and we just, the three of us have just great chemistry. So it was like right, right from the get. I mean, we got better because we were able to relax a little bit, but we had great chemistry with each other as soon as we threw a person, another person in that to interview, chemistry was all off. It took us a while to really learn.

Stepping on each other's toes sounded really formulaic, where we were asking questions like an interview, not really listening, just waiting.

To ask the question.

You know, a lot of stats I.

Used to have, fans would be like, oh, I love the episodes where it's just you three. And when you guys have guessed, it's not that, damn it, we got to get better.

That's what I've been stepping into with Wellness Force is like, the only thing really missing from the show is just episodes of me talking and teaching and educating. So that goes back to the polarization thing we were talking about. Like, how do we polarize? By being our freaking selves.

Right?

Yeah.

Well, this is why, unapologetically, just be yourself.

This is why, like, you know, cross promoting like this together. We will drop both these on both our podcasts is, you know, you get a chance to have a conversation on your podcast. I bet you your fans will love this.

I think they're going to connect to hear you in a way they've never connected with before.

Right. And that's what we had that with Lane Norton. Rob told us that, like, all these guys that have been podcasting for a really long time, it's going to be.

Our first explicit episode, too.

Oh, really?

Because we don't cuss on the show. Majority of my audience is like, busy working moms that want to get more. But you know what?

Hey, wait, I got. I'm going to say a little warning. Little warning. If you're going to come over to my.

Very explicit now, our message been coined as the Howard Stern of fitness.

Our. Our message is very much on good relationships to food, good relationships with exercise, like understanding yourself, loving yourself, nourishing your body, nourishing your soul. But we, you know, we're three bros that talk like that. And so you're going to hear some bad words.

You know what's funny, though? Like, you know that these words are dropped by the very moms or people in general that would say them themselves behind closed doors.

Actually, we have a huge female audience.

It's just the fact that it's, like, perceived. Like, oh, why are they cursing so much? It's like, well, can you just get past that and realize that those words are placed in there for impact, right? And not just for filler.

And I feel like when we first started, and I'll be the first to admit this, the. The nerves, like, when I go back and I listen and it's. Oh, God, it's painful.

Over the top.

Yeah.

Too many.

Yeah. You can hear our nerves. Nerves swearing a lot.

It's like when people say, yeah, bro, I went to the store. What are you doing? What are you doing?

Get to the point.

Yeah, so we, we did a lot of that at the beginning. You could hear all of our nerves. So now I think where. Wherever it gets dropped in there. I felt like it's.

But really, it's just, we just. The thing is, is like we're just. When me, Adam and Justin are in a room together and we start talking, it's come. We're in the flow state and it doesn't matter if the podcast is on, if we got the mics on or off, it's always the same. In fact, I had Adam and his girlfriend over not that long ago. And after they left, my girlfriend was like, you and Adam just fucking. Like nobody was around. You guys were just talking and going crazy. It's like we all have this chemistry and so whatever we feel like talking about, we talk about. And however passionate we are, it comes at out and sometimes it's, it's unfiltered.

And it's, it's a genuine look at, at us interacting. It's not like, oh, we're joke around. We're not reserved about it. Yeah. Cuz I mean, going into it, that was definitely concern especially for, I think more so on like me and Doug's end of it because, you know, just the professionalism aspect of it and you know, that was a big concern and was just so liberating. Once you're just like, let's just stop.

That was our model with this whole.

Yeah, please, zero bucks.

Yeah, we sold T shirts.

And then it just.

From then on we just wrote it out like that. And I think, I think certain people appreciate it. Of course certain people will get offended right away because it's, it's not part of the way they talk and interact with people. And I get that, you know, it's not for everybody, but I mean, if you're, if you're going to try and not like that, then if we go from here and we try and correct that, it just.

It's now. Now it doesn't work. Well, let's. Doesn't work. There was. Not only is it being true to ourselves, but there was. There's also us being. We were trying to be polarizing about things. We knew too that we weren't going to take on academia. We weren't going to go after there and try and say we're the smartest.

Guys in the room.

That wasn't like going to be our message. We're going to be ourselves.

That wasn't a winning message. Yeah, yeah.

But we knew we had a lot to offer and a lot to. A lot to share and a lot of experience. And we know a little bit about fitness and I think that we also didn't want to pigeonhole ourselves just in fitness and that's why it's mind pump. And yeah, we try to branch out and do a lot of different fact. Well, sometimes we actually have to go and say, man, we need to do a fitness pod episode. We've done like five, six episodes and haven't even talked about fitness, you know, because we really like to try and expect this. Well, and it's. I think it's good. You know, if you love podcasting, like we love podcasting, I think is that's just a great way to challenge yourself to branch out to other topics. Otherwise we do. We end up pigeonholing ourselves into this one demographic of people that will. That will only appeal to where. I would love to see the evolution of our show to where it's seven days a week and you have segments. So maybe you are somebody who, you know, just can't handle swear words. And I. That's fine. I respect that. And I can put. We could put together a show where we keep it as clean as possible and then It's Family Fridays, 10 minute episodes. Yeah, but, but.

Hello, Sal.

Yeah.

How are you?

Yeah, I think, I think, I think it would challenge our skill set to do that. And I think we could still deliver a pretty good impactful message to people because I would love to get into the schools and to churches and places like that that I think need the same. Same message. They're getting fed the same as everybody else.

Sure.

So. And they obviously mind pump Raw Fitness truth is probably a little too raw for most those places. Yeah.

So for kids, I'm excited that we're the first cuss. So we're the first cuss words.

Well, I think there's been a few peppered in, but not as many as this one.

Oh yeah.

So.

But I think what. Yeah, but I think what people will connect with is the way that we've explored topics in the most genuine way compared to when people just go deep into something just to sound smart. I think this has just been a real conversation about how all these topics intertwine and why people should. Should give a.

Right.

Right.

Excellent, excellent. Great time, man.

What a great way to tie it in there.

Do you like to do a sign.

Off or I really enjoyed being on the show. If anybody got upset with anything I said or is curious like I'd love you to reach out to me, it's Josh.

Wellnessforce.com Excellent. And we still have 30 days of coaching for free@mindpumpmedia.com Also, if you want to ask us any questions that we can answer on our Q and A episodes, head over to Instagram. Go to Mind Pup Media. We also have personal pages, Mine's Mind Pump Sal, Adam's Mind Pump Adam and Justin is Mind Pump Justin.

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