Red Light Photobiomodulation Therapy: Heal Chronic Pain Without Drugs

The pain is just the signal. And chronic pain is generally there when it's associated with these type of joint pain issues. When it's married to chronic inflammation. If you've got a fire in your kitchen, the house is burning down, you have inflammation in your joints, you have pain. The pain is that signal. Is that sound coming from the fire alarm? The fire in your kitchen is the inflammation. And what we see people doing with drugs, with opiates, with non steroidal anti inflammatory drugs.

Yeah.

Is taking the batteries out of the fire alarm so that they can't hear this anymore, but the fire is still going. One of the things to think about with photobiome modulation is that much like pharmaceuticals, we're trying to trigger specific responses from the body. When you have chronic inflammation, your body's trying to trigger things. It's just not being effective at that. We just make your chronic inflammation more effective at what it's doing so that it goes away. We see it as an alternative to pharmaceuticals for pain and inflammation.

It's a coach that trains the body in that acute site to heal itself. And it does it in a way where maybe it would take longer or maybe it would never happen at all without the light actually coming in.

One of the things that really picks me up on a daily basis, this is the stories we hear from our users. It's things like, I've seen my wife walking through the grocery store again, and she hasn't walked through the grocery store. She's been in one of those little carts for 10 years and she can walk again. And it's just, it's amazing to hear that we set out to, to solve these problems and we're seeing that on a daily basis, really, with people. Their lives are changing because of this. We're doing what we came to do and that means success.

Forest, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for being here, man.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, I've been looking forward to this. You know, technology is like this dual edged sword, right? Sometimes it hurts, but most times if you're conscious, it helps.

Yes.

And we're talking today, you guys, about this device right here, red light therapy, photobiomodulation. But a specific branch of photobiomodulation, this is called Kineon. And you know, I've been dealing with some elbow pain, some epicondylitis, and most people, man, I would say most people that do any athletics or just live their life well, they kind of get aches and pains. And this is just the nature of life, to be a human being. That's right. This field though of photobiomodulation. You know, we've had Brian from Saunaspace on the show and we've, we've gone into a lot of the science about different ways that red light can truly help us, you know, really actually help our bodies and also help our minds through the gut brain axis. And I was having a couple calls with you before you came to the studio and I was just so amazed by the way that you think. I love people that think at a high level. It allows me osmotically to get more smart when I'm around them. So it's totally selfish. You guys, that's probably why we listen to podcasts because we want to get more intelligent. Man. If people don't know you, what's like a high level view of you today, don't get too in the weeds.

But you know, who, who are you.

And, and, and what is Kenny on, on a, on a super high 30,000foot level.

So I am. My name is Forrest Smith. I'm. I'm co founder and CEO of Kineon. We're a photobiomodulation or cold laser therapy device company with the mission of increasing the quality of life for the largest number of people we can in the most measurable and sustainable and real way that we can. And our first product is the Move plus, which is a neuromuscular pain and inflammation device. I spent almost 20 years in China building innovative supply chain companies, innovative manufacturing companies. I speak and read and write fluent Chinese. I live in Mexico now. I've been in Mexico for about two and a half or three years, which was a whole Covid thing that's kind of maybe worth diving into a little bit. It's been a big shift for us, but it's been amazing. And part of that amazing journey has been the ability to really achieve what we set out to do with Kenion. We've seen some amazing first steps in our products and the stories that we see on a daily basis for getting people out of pain, getting them away from harmful pharmaceuticals and giving them an alternative that's going to be really promoting. I think what you guys do here so well is kind of that wellness and helping them understand and set a foundation of empowerment versus kind of taking the batteries out of the, the fire alarm, which is how we think about pharmaceuticals. So what do you mean by that?

The batteries out of the fire alarm.

So if you've got a fire in your kitchen, the house is burning down, you have, you have inflammation in your joints, you have pain the pain is that signal. Is that sound coming from the fire alarm? The fire in your kitchen is the inflammation. And what we see people doing with drugs with opiates, with non steroidal anti inflammatory drugs is taking the batteries out of the fire alarm so that they can't hear this anymore. But the fire's still going. And there's some really bad physiological impacts from non seroto anti inflammatory drugs. I think most people are aware about opiates, but with the drugs that we get as a gold standard from our doctors for treating joint pain. Yeah, I don't think people really understand the negative impacts that can have from a cardiovascular standpoint from a joint degradation, that tissue that's causing you pain. That, that fire in the kitchen, it's pouring gas on that fire. Taking the gold standard of what the medical community has provided us to date. And it's, it's really unfortunate. It's one of those education things. But yeah, that's, that's how we describe it. It's taking those batteries out of the.

I mean the, it's funny you mentioned the gold standard because if you look at the history of the revolving door between the fda, USDA and a lot private interest, there really isn't any ambiguity now about how much deception and corruption there is when it comes to pharmacological intervention. It's just prevalent. And, and, and this is not a conspiracy theory. We're not wearing tinfoil hats. This is literally just a quick search online like corruption, fda, usda, and basically you can tie in the medical industry and the insurance compound and everything in there. It's all one big mafia. So let's not try to solve that today because it is so bad. It is what it is.

Cynical. It's just such a bad, such a poor way.

It truly. It kind of reminds me of Sopranos. You ever watch this TV shows.

Exactly.

It's like. It's literally like Tony and his henchmen kind of running things. And we all try to apply logic to this ultimate fallacy that is sick care. It's not health care, it's actually sick care.

That's right.

So I wonder how you feel about this forest, you know, when we change the tide from natural things. And by the way, light is natural. You're just putting in a form factor where you're giving people naturally. Maybe what they get through compounded interest in nature. I'm curious how you feel about that as we, we shift the conversation to that instead of people going to pill mills.

Yes.

Like what happened in Florida when there was just the crazy OxyContin thing going down. The changing of the guard, the changing of the narrative is, is really challenging because people have been trained and educated for decades now that when you have pain, well, there's only one way to solve it. Yes, it's complete.

Yes.

So extrapolate on that.

Well, it's, it's also just strange to see how long social inertia carries on because we've, we've, we feel like a lot of the people that we can the most. Where the, the arbitrage is greatest for what people are doing right now and where our technology can be applied the best is really with an older community, an older cohort, so 55 plus. But when we've tried to address them kind of from a social media marketing standpoint, digital marketing, to reach out to them and see how can we get them into this so they can, they can try. We have a 30 day free trial. Can we get you into this? You know, how, how can we message this in a way that you can, you can get away from the drugs and start using this? What we get is, this is snake oil. Why isn't my doctor telling me this? Why isn't like, why isn't this covered by insurance? And I think part of this.

Because it works.

Yes, that's, that's the problem though is it's that it's not a recurring revenue stream. Exactly. And so this, this commercialization piece, although it sounds again like you mentioned, it sounds like a conspiracy theory when you look at the interests that are there. Like you said, it's sick care, it's not health care, it's not wellness care. It is kind of keeping people in a state that the most profitable way to run a pharmaceutical company is to keep people in a state of semi health, provide them some benefits but not never get them well. And I think this is something where preventative care that we're seeing now, value based care, I hope, and I'm an optimist in general and I think that's how we run our company. But I hope that we're going to see the system shifting in that direction as well because we do see more and more grants going into things like we have a brain product that's coming out next year and we're going to be likely receiving grants for this and you know, treating dementia and, and different neurological things, neurological pathologies like this. You know, the pharmaceutical industry has spent billions of dollars developing different solutions that would keep people in that most profitable role of the commercialization which is in semi health and semi sickness and you know, it just. And for, for an infinite period of time, like that's, that's the most valuable customer to have. What's not a valuable customer to have is somebody that you can provide preventative measures to. And so, you know, one of the things that's come out recently as an example of kind of preventative and prophylactic care versus or wellness care, and I really like that, that way of framing it versus sick care is people have been looking at the impacts of what's causing ad. So certain types of dementia. We know exactly what's causing it.

It's essentially inflammation, right, which then leads to neuro degeneration.

That's right. But what we found though is that when you measure this, there's different plaques that the inflammation triggers. And so what we've been looking at is how do we stop this plaque? When what we should be looking at is how do we stop this inflammation? And this, this is one of the reasons that we've seen unsuccessful attempts from a, from the pharmaceutical community to try to develop solutions for this that, that keep people in that high profit area for the plaque treatment. Once you get downstream to that plaque, there's not a ton you can do. You can reduce the inflammation, but the plaque is already there. What you can do ahead of that though is, and we're super excited to be part of this from a, both from a, a diagnostic standpoint with our new products that we're working on, but also from a therapy standpoint is get people into therapy early enough to where you can baseline their healthy brain. And so as you start seeing that inflammation increase, provide them with a solution that, that like transcranial photobiomodulation or laser therapy can reduce that inflammation and is consistent in being able to provide those outcomes of reduced inflammation so that you're never getting to the, the point where you need to remove the plaque because the plaque hasn't been generated in the first place.

Is there a certain test or like a frequency of test force where people can understand the whole body health? It's funny, I'm working with a functional med doc here in Austin at Alive and well, so shout out to Lauren Coletti and she's been really great about giving me the schedule of testing for biomarkers and different things that are going on, you know, from teeth to toe, from, from head to toe. So in your world. And I want to get into the science of photobiomodulation as well because it's freaking fascinating and I love how we could connect it to really fac things that nature does provide. Yes, because we've as a society divorced ourselves in many different ways from nature. But I'm curious, when you talk about this neurodegeneration perspective, is there like an annual checkup or a certain type of bevy of tests that a human being should do to identify when something is happening upstream so they never have to deal with the downstream in the first place?

There is the problem with this right now is that they're fairly expensive. So you're looking at things like CAT scans and fmris and there's a number of battery of tests actually some cool startups working in the space. So one of the ones that. And again, we're going to be working the space from an optical sensor, an optical treatment standpoint, but electrical is much more mature. And so we're friends with the guys over at Wavi, for example. Wavi, they use an electrical system for being able to measure subconscious, you know, or preconscious electrical signals between different regions of the brain and those you can trigger with external visual and oral stimuli. And so they, it's an evoked potential kind of if you're looking at it for, in the, the medical literature. And they do a great job of this. And so you can see things where they're, they're able to start quantifying data around chronic pain, where chronic pain, pain for us has been something where we've been looking, that's how we got in contact with them is we've, we've been actively looking. Our first product is a pain and inflammation device. We don't want to be out here on a limb. We want. And when you're measuring pain, you know, the kind of standard, the gold standard for this is what they call the visual assessment score, which is essentially 0 to 10. How much pain do you feel?

Right. It's so ambiguous, it's so subjective. What if they had a bad breakfast that day? It's going to cue the score.

Yes, that's exactly right. And so we want to be held to a higher standard. We feel like part of the responsibility of building a company and promising people outcomes is that you have, you have the accountability to deliver that and to measure yourself to a higher standard. And so what we see with that is as we start reaching out for different solutions is that there are a number of things that you can measure with. There are ultrasound brain scans. For pain, it's very limited, but for brain health in general, ultrasound is something that people have been working on for some time. And I think we're going to see some breakthroughs in that space in the near future. But the main measures for this right now are electromagnetic spectrum. So again, FMRI and, and CAT scans and things like this. But it's nice to see that there are again startups starting to address this in a more meaningful way. And we feel like what's happening right now in the, excuse me, the, the optical space is, is unparalleled. The opportunity that we're going to see to move from simple measurements of very strong signals in the body, like, like for example, the whoop straps, you're, you're essentially using kind of decades old technology from a hardware standpoint to measure extremely strong signals from your heart. Heart rate signals are very, very strong. And, but the stronger the signal is, the easier it is to measure the less kind of noise relative to that signal there is. And so one of the things that we've seen is that the, that over the last 10 years there's been kind of a boom in moving forward in both the emitters that you can use. So this, These are using LEDs, micro LEDs and photodiodes to measure these very strong signals. They're using machine learning overlay to be able to interpret that into something that's going to help us change our behavior. How is your sleep, how is your strain, how is your recovery? All of this you can kind of, you can derive from and with broader numbers of data on this, you can derive effectively to a degree from ancillary but strong signals that you can measure from a body like heart rate and heart rate variability. Those aren't really direct measures though that we'd like to see, you know, either for the body and the general physiology or for the brain. And one of the things that's happened in the last 10 years is the emitters have moved from the capability of building micro LEDs in as an emitter to building in next generation lasers like vertical cavity surface emission lasers. And this is something that we built into our products early because the lasers had a substantial and a measurable difference relative to LEDs for internal tissue dosing. And so we've built these in for our products now from a therapeutic standpoint. But what you're able to do right now from a sensor standpoint, and it's going to get even better over the next 10 years, is you're able to use these great new emitters and there's new where these have been using kind of photo diodes for the last, you know, 30 to 40 years. If you think about a pulse ox that you that you put on the end of your finger in a hospital. Yes, those have been around for ages and ages. Yeah, because they're measuring strong signals. You don't really need to be able to weed out that much noise when you're trying to measure things like hemodynamics in the brain. When you're trying to measure things like metabolic dynamics in the brain, you've got to be a lot more accurate with those. And the sensors that have come out over the past years, uh, a photodiodes have gone much more effective in, in the sensitivity that they can provide and much faster, which is also important for keeping this, the signal as strong as possible. But one of the things that we're looking at right now is a kind of revolution in what we can, what we can apply to this from a sensor technology. And the revolutionary step that we're working on right now is silicon photon multipliers. And they are so much faster and so much more sensitive that it's insane. They're in the same kind of development step that when we started our development for this product, the lasers that we're working with now, the vertical cavity surface mission lasers that we use, they were roughly 30 times more expensive than they are now. But one of the things that we do from a supply chain standpoint is we try to find large industries that are going to adopt these. Because when you have volume in production, particularly for these upstream part productions, the prices drop off a cliff. And so what we're seeing right now is that when we're building our brain sensors to be able to measure hemodynamics and, and metabolic dynamics in the brain, silicon photomultipliers are going to be something that, that really pushes the technology forward. But they are probably even more, they're actually, I would say about 150 times the cost that we would need to be able to adopt them into a product that people can use at home. And again, that goes back to our mission. We don't, we don't want to have something that you have to go to the clinic, you have to go to the. Yes, the doctor to use. We want to, we want to empower people in their hands. And to do that, we're assuming that with the adoption of these silicone photomultipliers by lidar technology, potentially by cell phones and by different medical techniques in, in larger medical devices, that we're going to see these drop off the same way we saw the lasers drop off in cost. And we may be off by some, but I don't think we're going to be rough by an order of magnitude. And because of that, we'll be able to be very early in dragging in new sensor tech.

It's pretty badass, actually. It's really amazing because if you look at every industry like, so you're in health, fitness, wellness, longevity, and look at education, look at real estate, look at the Turo for renting cars or Airbnb. Everything is being democratized. True democracy. Not just like this whole dog and pony show that we have here in America, like true democracy, we're seeing people being empowered where you don't have to go through the old ivory towers in any industry anymore. You can actually take it into your own hands. You can do things at home. There's a company, shout out to Cy Fox, they're using some of this photonic sensor tech for blood and they're able to use dried samples on cards and you send them in and they're good for two weeks. And you don't have to go for Quest Labs or Lab Corp and do the whole blood draw and everything. It's absolutely exciting. Like, we live in the coolest time. And so, you know these people that have the doom and gloom about what's going to happen and what's going to go down, we can't control any of that.

That's right.

All we can control is our openness and our heart. The way that we can learn, the way that we can become intelligent. Like this conversation. So y' all share this podcast. If you know somebody who's in pain, maybe your is in pain, let's shift to pain. Because pain management, if I had to guess, and maybe you know, the actual statistics on this, it's probably 60% or more of Americans, or maybe North Americans, even Canada included, that are dealing with some type of definitely acute pain for sure. But chronic pain is the big one. And that's unfortunately what drives the unconscious model of the pill mills and the pharmacological intervention paint a picture of that for us. Because I'm sure that was a huge fuel source for you to do what you do.

100%. It's rampant. And we're seeing things like, and I think we talked a little bit earlier about seed oils. Systemic inflammation.

Yes, don't eat them. That was our whole conversation. Don't eat seed oils because they're poison.

But what we're seeing right now is this impact of the lack of movement and the dietary gaps that we have. And so one indicator for this is for us particularly, we, we treat osteoarthritis Very well. So we, we reduce inflammation in the joint. We see a lot of people with bad knees and, and, you know, bad knees is kind of a downward, is the, is the kicking off point for a downward spiral where when you can't move the, the joints, when you can't or don't move, the joints just get worse and worse. And it's extremely highly correlated to depression, increased chronic anxiety. A lot of neurological impacts of that because of lack of movement. In the early 2000s, the adult onset age, the average adult onset age for osteoarthritis was 67. Over the past 20 years, that's dropped to 52. So we're not seeing this as kind of an old person's disease anymore. These, these people who were in chronic pain, it just keeps getting younger and younger and it's all tied together. And so, so, you know, when you see this, what you'd like to be able to do is help them with the inflammation that's causing that pain. Because again, this goes back to the kitchen fire. The pain is just the signal. The pain is telling you. And chronic pain is generally there when it's associated with these type of joint pain issues. When it's there, when it's married to chronic inflammation. Chronic inflammation is a scourge. And I wish if people take nothing else from discussion today, they can take home how bad local inflammation can be for your general system. And there's a few ways to illustrate that. But the main thing is when you're looking at someone's knee as an example, if you've got I tore meniscus in my knee when I was young, grappling. One of the things that we'll see with this, and this is with professional athletes with really fit people as well. This isn't something that's kind of, if you're in kind of metabolic disorder or diabetes, this is, this is really with healthy people as well. There was a 3500 player study with the NFL. The players who half had 50% had had ACL tears, 50% had had not, though the 50% that had the ACL tears had a greater than 50% increase in severe cardiovascular disease. And they looked for kind of the smoking gun for what's driving this. And what it came down to is you have increased chronic inflammation in that joint almost forever after that, after that traumatic tissue damage that you have with the injury and then the surgery. And that doesn't really go away and it doesn't stay local. It impacts and impairs your cardiovascular endothelial tissue. And One of the measures that they use for cardiovascular endothelial tissue, which is just the kind of tissue on the inside of your blood vessels, is what they call a shear strength test. And so shear strength is, is when you have pressure coming down the pipe of your, of your, your blood vessels. How much the, the more blood that's going through there, the more stress gets put on kind of at a, at a perpendicular angle angle to that endothelial tissue. And the, the sheer strength drops off when you have inflammation chronically in your body. And that's, that's when you start seeing stiffening those. That endothelial tissue can't, can't expand and deliver blood as easily. And, you know, part of the validation for this has been, let's go back and measure the tissue that's around this injury to validate. That's what's driving it. And when we do, when we see somebody who's had an ACL tear as an example professional athlete, they can be five years on or 10 years on, but when you measure the temperature of their quad above that, that unhealthy joint is 1 to 2 degrees colder than their, the one above their healthy joint. And it doesn't sound like a lot, but that, that's severely impacting the amount of oxygen and blood delivery to that tissue there. And so it essentially goes kind of really bad. Local inflammation impacts degrading tissue tearing down your cartilage, making you have worse outcomes from a mobility standpoint. And then you go regional and you look at the muscle tissue and it's getting worse blood delivery, worse oxygen delivery, and you go systemic, and you looked at endothelial cardiovascular tissue, and the shear strength is dropping. This is, this is something that's crazy across all of these different parts of your body.

So really that's nature giving us the signal. Hey, pay attention. There's something that needs to be addressed here. And so people can go like 10, 15, 20 years plus with back pain. It's like, oh, it's just what it is. It's almost like this psychological excuse that. Because people are so overwhelmed and busy. And you know what? I definitely fell into that in the past where there's so much going on. You know, you're a father, I'm a father. For the parents out there, or for the busy single peeps, like, there's a lot to do during the day. There's a lot of stuff going on. And so unless pain is like really screaming at you or debilitating you so that you can't do normal activities, sometimes the Motivation, the internal locus of control to actually change what's hurting cannot be there. It's like it has to bark at you so loud. But, but, but it's so fascinating what you said, because it can literally change the strength of the way that our heart feeds our body with fresh blood because of that local inflammation source. And this is where I think the photobiomodulation conversation for me is absolutely fascinating because think about what we would do back in the day, like, before you and I ever had computers, before there was phones, like, if we were to just pull the E bra and go back to like 1850. Right. If we were living in harmony with nature and we had had an injury, we would address it through being in sunlight, through using different mobility and massage. Or we would rest. Yes, we would actually be forced to rest because we couldn't go out and plow corn or whatever we were doing. So now it's like we lead these lives of, you know, computers and technology. And I feel like what Kineon is, is it's this answer. It's a Trojan horse for people to address the pain early so that they don't have to wait decades before it actually makes their heart weaker.

Yes.

I didn't know that, that you could have a meniscus or, or even for me, my elbow issue or anything at all that can actually make your heart weaker over time. That's freaking wild.

Yes. It's crazy. And I, I think you've nailed it, though. I think the, the, one of the other things that we see a lot of that's really, you know, it's kind of heartbreaking is that you see people just ascribing this to age. Like, I'm just old. I'm just going to have this pain. And you know, part of our job is to educate and say, you don't have to. You can get out of this. You know, it takes consistency. It's not going to happen in a week when you've had, the longer you've had it, the, and the more damaging that trauma has been to the tissue in the first place, the longer treatment like this takes to, to help you. And, you know, we've, we've committed to our users to be able to keep it, Keep it as long, as long as you're using it, keep it as long as you can. If you ever feel like you're not getting the results that you were expecting out of it, it send it back to us. We're not here to sell devices. We're here to change your life. So it's you know, that again, that's our commitment as a company is, is the mission for moving that needle. We don't want to be forcing something onto you. We get a lot of skepticism about like, oh, like and reasonably. I think if you think about it from an outside looking in, it sounds incredible. Like I'm going to shine light on my body and I'm going to have physiological adaptations because of that. It, it, you know, even when I started looking at this from a medical research standpoint, that sounds, that sounds incredible. And so I can appreciate the skepticism. But when you get, you know, we're, we're now, I think over 6,500 studies that we've cataloged and then kind of drilled down into and kept all of the dosing data from that because it's, it's one of the things that you've mentioned, and I think it's worth diving into a little bit is when you're out in sunlight, you're, you're also getting infrared light. You know, there's, there's different ways to get light and there's different reasons that we've developed these photo acceptors in our body to be that, that do trigger different signaling impacts. And you know, the, the difference with using photobiomodulation is that you can essentially work backwards from what you want to do or what you want to achieve from result and trigger the photo acceptors that you need to at the right level with the right number of photons to be able to do that. That's essentially where we've spent tens of thousands of hours with our technical team is building out these mathematical models and then baselining them with physiological responses. And so there are a number of different existing kind of off the shelf models. One of the ones we started with. So how, how just to kind of describe how most red light or laser therapy devices are dosed, most of them are dosed more from an engineering standpoint. So there's, there's two metrics that are used quite commonly with particularly the commercial and really most of the medical level devices that are out in the market. That's irradiance and power density, optical power density. And that's essentially how much light's coming out of the device and how much light's hitting your skin. Those are interesting and to some degree give you a rough order of magnitude understanding of the light that you're, you're dosing with. What we wanted to start with and hold ourselves accountable to a higher standard for this was start from what you want to do, start from what you want to impact from a photo acceptor standpoint, we know which photoacceptors we're trying to trigger, we know how many photons we need to be able to deliver to those. And we know essentially how light we can model mathematically. And the models are getting more and more complex. So I say that, that we can model mathematically how light distributes through tissue. And that's what we've done is we've started with kind of off the shelf models of we want to trigger these photoacceptors at these level of tissue to be able to get the best results. We build the model to that and then we use again, what's gotten us into the optical sensor side of things is we use existing optical sensors to be able to measure what's happening within the physiology. And that gives us in. We can't measure every photoacceptor output downstream signaling, but the larger ones we can. And so when we make our mathematical model, we build that and say, here's what we're delivering to this depth and here's what we're expecting for the outcome for serum nitric oxide, which is something that we increase as an example, then we can measure the serum nitric oxide and if it's up or down, we have to go back in and understand with our dosing what drove that difference with the physiology relative to what our mathematical model was predicting.

Is the serum nitric oxide one of the ways that it calms down the inflammatory cytokines or is that something different?

It does from a more macro level. It opens up the, the blood vessels. So when we're, when we're interacting with hemoglobin, our infrared wavelengths interact with heme core kind of based molecules like hemoglobin. And so hemoglobin is a carrier molecule that carries oxygen and nitric oxide in the body. When we reduce the affinity of nitric oxide to binding sites on hemoglobin, it dumps a bunch of the nitric oxide into the blood vessels and your endothelial tissue takes that on. And what's been very interesting, and we have one of our friendly companies that does sensors for this, is there's almost kind of a paradigm shift in how people are thinking about cardiopulmonary function where it's been kind of a two molecule oxygen and carbon dioxide kind of paradigm and it's shifting into the nitric oxide one being built into this. There's these, there's some really smart people doing some really cool work in this space. But for us the, the main thing is that when you reduce that affinity and you kind of cleave the nitric oxide from the, the hemoglobin, you do this in a form called, there's a number of different forms of, of nitric oxide in a form called S nitrocethiol, which is very effective at increasing or dilating the, the blood vessels. And so when you dilate those blood vessels, you provide more oxygen, more blood to these areas where you do have chronic inflammation and you'd like to be able to get that out. This is one of the signaling molecules and one of the impacts that we have there. There are other ones that are cellular level where there's another heme based protein called cytochrome C oxidase that's part of your oxidative phosphorylation chain in your mitochondria or in the kind of phospholipid bilayer or cell wall of your mitochondria. Yes, we trigger that as well. And that's, that the, the downstream signaling from that is essentially to, to balance and, and I, I would say reduce in most cases, but it actually, the literature shows us that it's, it's. If your oxidative stress is very high, it's not healthy for you. If, if your oxidative stress is very low, it's not healthy for you. And what we found is this actually balances that, that oxidative stress at a cellular level. And so that's where we're seeing kind of the cytokine reduction and, and there's a number of, of that. There's so much happening in the biochemistry of it that that's, that's a little bit of a simplification, but I think.

That'S the simple version. Everybody's listening to this for a third time. They're like, I followed him and I had to look up 10 different terms as he was speaking because I'm in my mind, maybe you can break this down for us. You know, imagine somebody's standing in line at Sprouts and they're like, they see your face and it's talking about inflammation. Can you break it down in a simplistic way? What's actually going on in the body when we get acute inflammation versus chronic inflammation. Is there a simplistic way to describe that?

So I, I think one of the best ways we've heard describe it is just the acute inflammation is actually, actually impacting things that it's trying to impact. And so it's triggering your body to send healing factors to that Space. So, you know, hgh, you know, a number of different human growth hormone, a number of different hormonal changes happen when you have, have acute inflammation in an area. When you have chronic inflammation, your body's trying to trigger things. It's just not being effective at that. And you know that. That's actually a reasonable way of saying that. It's a very good way of saying that, which is that we just make your chronic inflammation more effective at what it's doing so that it goes away. And, and you know, that's, again, that's also a simplification, but I think it's a reasonable and not inaccurate simplification.

Yeah, because I, I've always read that cytokines are harmful, but no, they're actually great if it's acute and it's short term. That's their job. It's like, that's why when you get a bruise, there's a hematoma or there's water retention. Like, these are physiological processes that have been around since the dawn of time. So we're not trying to like, fight those. We're not, we're not trying to change these natural adaptations to stress. And by the way, like getting bruises and cuts. And you know, my, my son is a little bit over two and he gets bruises all the time. And I have this response as a father. I'm like, oh my God. Like, I don't want him to get hurt. And it's like, well, that's how he's going to learn. You know, the unconscious mind and the memory storage for us is so vast. It's like the consciousness. We were chatting before we got on the podcast. I was referencing Jud Brewer and like, you know, the things that are going on with the brain are 90% unexplored. We just simply don't know what's going on. And we, you know, people like you that are at the cutting edge of science and figuring out how photobiomodulation and red light therapy can actually adapt a human body to something similar to nature. It's freaking fascinating. But it's still a science. You're still using Socratic method to prove it or dispute, disprove it. So this is the big question, right? Like, when it comes to photobiomodulation, what do people get wrong? What do people usually not know? Or what is important for us to know? What do we get to know about photobiomodulation that maybe is a false narrative in the media right now?

So I think one of the things that we see a lot of is, is people out using panels. And panels are not terrible. They're, they're typically, they're kind of what we think of as a, a first generation product. They're a manufacturer friendly product. We're strapping a bunch of LEDs to a board and we're going to put a power supply on it and we're going to get people in front of it and expect some level of outcome from that. And I think one of the things to think about with photobiomodulation is that much like pharmaceuticals, we're trying to trigger specific responses from the body. And so dosing is key. If you're not controlling the dosing, it's kind of like we've used the analogy of the panels being a little bit more like a doctor saying, here's a bottle of pills, hold it two feet in front of your face and shake it. And whatever falls in your mouth, that's the dose that you need to take. It's just not very measurable. And it's great because it exposes people to the fact that it can be red light and laser therapy can be a positive impact for them. And actually there's a number of these that can be used reasonably well for the dosing relative to the shallower in your body. Photoacceptors is more reasonable out of those.

And acceptors and receptors are the same or different.

Photoexceptors?

Yeah, photoreceptors, it's the same, just different nomenclature because I had learned a long time we have photoreceptors in our skin and our eyes. So acceptor and receptor is the same.

Yes, I'm saying acceptor because I'm thinking of it from a biochemistry standpoint where it's kind of accepting and, and essentially the photons power. But receptors, you can think of it as a receptor as well.

Almost like a catcher's mitt.

That's right.

Essentially.

That's right.

Okay.

And that comes down to things like melanin. And there's a number of different photo acceptors or receptors in our body. But with the panels, you see these triggering the shallower ones more effectively. And so if you want to use those to be able to trigger things like wound healing is one that it's actually not a bad trigger for. We're going to see an order of magnitude more efficacy out of the lasers because you're triggering the tissue beneath it for most of these. But when you're looking at wrinkle reduction, so kind of anti aging things, those panels aren't a bad solution.

That's where it really started. I remember I was back in the day, I was talking to the juve guys and his wife actually had, like, skin issues. And then that was where, like, the photobiomodulation came online. But there's a huge crossover between what you do and what the panels. This is a totally different science.

Yes.

It's a totally different form factor. I mean, you, like, literally wear it. It's perfect. This is size for me. Right now. If you guys are watching on YouTube, you can wear it on your arm, you can wear it in your neck, your back. And the laser is actually right there on the skin, so it's able to penetrate in a way that like, you know, shout out for the panels. They're good for some things, but the form factor is different because the delivery mechanism is meant for a different thing.

Thing. That's right.

This is a totally different way of speaking and knowing about photobiomodulation.

Yeah. Dosing internal tissue is essentially optimally. Dosing internal tissue for inflammation and pain reduction is essentially what we built these for. One of the things that we've found in the meantime that's been a massive benefit to our users is that there's a great soft tissue remodeling outcome for this as well, where if you'd like to be able to increase your mobility, you can do loaded stretching after using these on your joint caps. And you just. It's so much faster than doing a regular stretching program. It's. It's insane. We're actually working with a number of chiropractors on things like. Also when someone has a neck injury, they'll have protocols where they, they use these foam pieces called dinner rolls.

Yes, the dinner all.

Yes.

Think of dinner roll, but dinner all.

That's right.

It's.

It's.

And, and there's a guy neck nest. I'm not going to probably. I'm not going to probably go deep into the science of that because I want to stick to photobiomodulation. But when you're addressing soft tissue and you're adding red light, the results can be 20x.

That's right. That's right. And it's amazing because you're just seeing. One of the things that we see out of this is that we increase the, the rate of proliferation for stem cells, mesenchymal stem cells, and not only do you have more stem cells, do you generate more stem cells, but those stem cells actually. So stem cells like these mesenchymal ones self select into becoming different types of cells. One of the Ones that they select into at a much higher rate when you're using laser therapy like this is osteoblasts and chondroblasts, which are the fast growing bone generation cells that you have. Although both bone and, you know, cartilage and ligaments are soft growing tissue, they have one type of cell that's very fast growing and it's on kind of the growth edge. And then these fast growing cells emit what they call extracellular matrix or kind of build out this like fibrous collagen matrix around them. And so it's a slow process, but you can increase the rate of proliferation for these and your soft tissue just becomes much, much healthier. And so we're starting in with experiments we like to kind of, you'll probably notice there's a theme in this. We like to measure our kind of objective results for what we're providing for this. We're doing a lot of things like before and after X rays, comparing people using and not using this relative to kind of. They, you have a, you have a, a straight neck. The curve needs to be in there. Okay, here's your dinner roll protocol. Let's, let's do a B comparisons relative to people who are using and not using the laser therapy. And it's, it's really different.

You know what? Okay, so if you're watching on YouTube or Spotify right now, on the screen there's a picture of pre Kineon ankle and then post kineon ankle and we'll give the, to the blogger that did this. It's really cool. I mean you can actually physically, visually see the increase in blood flow, but there's way much more going on than just the increase in blood flow. And this is really like, I guess this is the crux of the conversation, right? Because photobiomodulation, yes, it does help with inflammation, it does help with the soft tissue and a myriad of other things. But if you were to like put your finger on one thing, scientifically, physiologically, that's actually happening. When that laser starts to penetrate the skin, it starts to move the blood to the area. What is actually going on there? And why does that heat map show such a radical difference? That cannot be ambiguous. I mean, you can't, you can't say that it's not there. It's like literally black and then red.

Yeah, we actually, we did a. And I'll try to send you some more photos of it when I can. But we, we have, we use flir, FLIR mix infrared cameras and we use these to Kind of see, see how we're, we're treating people's tissue and, and a couple of things that happen really effectively with this is we, we dilate those blood cells, we deliver more blood to the area. The other thing that's very exciting about this is that you're also coaching that tissue back into how to deliver blood more effectively to the area. And so as an example, when we did those FLIR measurements for people's quads where they've had an ACL tear, it was 1 to 2 degrees colder, which, again, that doesn't sound like a lot. That's really a lot for your body to be constantly in that state of under delivering oxygen and blood to that area. And when you start treating these acutely, you see blood rushing to the area and it opens up and over time, and I think we, I want to get it right because we had the study for it. But five to six weeks in, you start seeing that level out that blood flow, that endothelial tissue has now been taught how to deliver blood to the area again effectively. And the last thing that happens even longer term is angiogenesis. So you start growing new blood cells or new new blood kind of cardiovascular delivery tissue to bring more blood to the area as well. So you, you get it really kind of short term that, that, that burst of blood because you're, you're dilating the cardiovascular tissue and delivering more blood and oxygen in the area. Middle term, you're increasing the, the efficacy for your own tissue to do that without the lights. So to do it by itself, to fix itself longer term, and then the long term is that you grow more blood vessels to the area.

It's so cool because I was doing a ton of research for this podcast because it was necessary. This is such a vast freaking subject, and really you could spend your entire life studying the effects and the science of photobiomodulation. One of the things I loved though, and it's very simplistic, was that pbm, we'll just use PBM as the acronym. It balances the body's inflammatory response without impairing acute inflammation, which is the critical mechanism that's right. For the body to heal itself. So this is not like, you know, you've heard the old adage, if you wear a brace, then you make it weak. And that's true. If you always wear an ankle brace, if you always use a belt, when you're lifting your core in, all the different muscles in your sailboat right there, they're gonna get weak. If you always have A belt on.

On.

This is. Can you talk to us about the acute inflammation pathway and how this is not a brace. This is actually that coach, which is a cool way to say it. It's a coach that trains the body in that acute site to heal itself, and it does it in a way where maybe it would take longer or maybe it would never happen at all without the light actually coming in.

I love it. I think it's a much better way of saying what I was trying to say earlier with the oxidative stress is that, that when, when you see something that's bringing these systems back to normal, what you're, what you're not seeing is you're, you're seeing if your oxidative stress is too low. So, you know, exercise brings oxidative stress to your cells, but it brings it in a healthy way. When your ox. When your oxidative stress is too low, you don't have that. And so this actually can get things back up from a, A, a low oxidative stress standpoint. But the same thing when you're. And this kind of goes back to what you're saying about the, the, the acute versus chronic inflammatory cytokines. It's helping you find balance in these systems, in these signaling systems, and it's unblocking the bottlenecks for how those signals proceed and do what they should be doing in the first place. So it's really helping your body just find balance through the signaling systems that.

It already has and in those signaling systems. Maybe the part that was most confusing for me, I had to read a few studies a few times for me to actually get it, because when it comes to certain subjects, I'm thick. Because I was taught a certain way about how things work when I was a personal trainer and, you know, shout out to nasm. Their, their model was great back in the day when I learned it, and I think it was 2003, 2004, was when I first became a trainer. And we were always taught that when you have inflammation, you either ice it, depending on its local area, or you heat it. And that was it. That was. There was no photobiomodulation talk at that time. Like, you know, the tech maybe didn't exist, or if it did, it was in its infancy stage. What continues to excite you the most about this field? Like, maybe from an emotional standpoint, like, you know, improving the quality of lives for as many people in the world is not an easy task. And I'm sure when you meet natural roadblocks and hurdles as A founder, like, you know, it can get pretty challenging. Like, there's gotta be something in your heart that makes you want to do this on a super deep level, because just to quote Steve Jobs, when you do something you love, it's not always going to be easy. And you have to love it so, so much that you actually can get through the hard times.

One of the things that really picks me up on a daily basis is the stories we hear from our users. You know, and it's. It's things like, I've seen my wife walking through the. The grocery store again, and she hasn't walked through the grocery store. She's been in one of those little carts for 10 years, and she can walk again. And it's just. It's amazing to hear that. Ooh.

And I can. Like, you're tearing up right now, which is like. It's so beautiful, man. This is why I connect with your company. This is why I feel a special connection with you, because I'm here to help people live their life. Well, you have that same mission. What are you feeling right now emotionally? Like, what is that for you? It brings up a lot of emotion for you.

It does, it does. It's just. It just means that we're doing what we can. Like, we're doing what we came to do. And. And, you know, that means success. That's. That's, you know, growing the size of the company, like, that's. That's great to see. And. But for me, that's kind of vanity metrics. That's something where you're like, hey, we're. We're making more money. Yeah, that's. This is what we came to do. We set out to. To solve these problems, and we're seeing that on a daily basis, really, with. With people. You know, their lives are changing because of this.

I. I bet you didn't think you were going to cry in the podcast today, but that's how. I mean, honestly, that's how the best things in life are really articulated, is through human emotion. So I just celebrate. I totally celebrate the fact that you're doing what you're doing, because, gosh, this world of science can get so heady at times. And the fact that you can connect your head to your heart in the way that you just did. I mean, that right there speaks your. To. Speaks volumes about how much you believe in this technology. And that is. Is really infectious. Like, when a human being believes in something so much that it brings up tears and emotion in them. How could people not take an Honest. Look, it's on the screen right now, you guys. Joshtrend.com forward/kineon. And the discount that. Thank you, by the way. The discount is huge. It's not cheap to make this. You had to travel the world and circumnavigate the globe.

The.

The code is Josh10. So it's 10 off. It's on the screen. We're going to keep talking about it, but I wanted to, to, you know, inspire you to do that because obviously this works. You have thousands and thousands of people that have shared stories with you. And I'm just visualizing this woman in the store right now, like, getting out of her motorized cart. Holy. That's amazing.

Walking up the stairs again. Who couldn't walk up the stairs? You know. You know, even one of our, Our co founders from the company. He's. He's in his 70s, played rugby for his whole life, and now he can go. He. And he, he at this point was not able to walk up and down on the field and follow the play anymore. And he can now, and he's back into. And like, this was early into our company where we, we got our first betas in and, you know, everybody's, you know, our. Did. Did our model work. Have we dialed this in? Is the. Is it right? And he gets one of these and he's like, two weeks in, he's back up, no pain. Walking up and down the. The sidelines of the rugby field again. It's. It's those things that, like, it just makes it much easier to come into work and face whatever you got to. Like, that's. This is. Yeah, that's the foundational passion of the business is, you know, and that's why we've. We spent so much time even before we started developing, even before we selected the product or the technology to go into to set the mission. And, and, you know, we. I think we've stayed as true as we can to the mission with our. Both our current products and our product roadmap going forward. And we're. We're, you know, we're in every day, seven days a week, hammering this because it's. It's great to build something, and again, it's nice to have something where you can earn money to pay for your family and take care of things, but when you have something where you're able to see the outcomes and the success that you've been shooting for, impacting people's lives like that, it's just a different ballpark.

You know, what's crazy, bro? Is on our. We have a video on Facebook that's almost at a million views now. And it was from one of our partners, Mana, which, you know, was that Sheila Jeet Ormus product that I was talking to you about before we started started. And there are literally hundreds and hundreds of comments that say, this changed my life. And then of course, there's the negativity bus where people. And you probably get this too, where it's like, this is snake oil. This is. It doesn't work. And I just. I just always either don't respond. If the comments are real negative, I'll be like, wow, what are you drinking? I'll just delete the comp block and bless my friend Luke. And then sometimes on the comments, I might just take a breath and feel into the. Their pain because really their unconscious is trying to sabotage them. And this was a big one. When I was a personal trainer, I remember one specific client, she said, oh, I'm going to buy this 20 session package. It was over two grand in training. She never used it.

Oh, wow.

And I kept following up with her. And I realized later on, like five years later, that her negativity bias around something not working was actually an excuse for her to pay for it. It or a person on social media to write a negative comment, but to not actually ever have to use it.

Yes.

To not be the gladiator in the stadium that's willing to be vulnerable and heal themselves, that's willing to take on a new mindset and actually have their heart and mind be open to something being different than the pain they're currently experiencing. So I have compassion for these people that hate so hard on social. And the more this video grows, the more comments we're getting. How do you deal with that? Because, you know, at first glance, it's on the screen right now. Like, there's lasers in this thing. I think about like, you know, Austin Powers where he's like sharks with laser beams on their heads. But how do you deal with that? Because, like, you know, the. The stories bring up tears in you, which are so palpable and so real. It just makes me trust you and want to help you even more. By the way, like, men were taught for so long to like, not show emotion and not be vulnerable. That shit's done. I think the real warriors are the ones that are able to fight and cry. The ones that are able to really live life.

Life.

So how do you deal with that? I'm sure a lot of. A lot of people, as you change the tide in this pain versus pills conversation. They fight against you, they might hate on you. How do you navigate that?

We've just tried to be as honest as we can and say, here's the research we've done here, the doctors we've worked with, here's everything. And we've tried to do a reasonable job of recording all of that. Here's the people we've helped, here's a bunch of testimonials, here's the, and okay, those are paid. Okay, they're not. But, you know, here's the doctors that are using this and you know, here's why they're using it. And here's their testimonials for how they're seeing this in their, in their clinics. And you know, one of the things that we've noticed and was unexpected for us for this was, and I think it's helped us with addressing kind of the older users because they're very much, when they use it, they become flag waving, like they become rabid, avid fans of the product. But if, if you see them on social media, they're the first ones to say, this is snake oil. But when they go into a medical professional, so we've had a bunch of medical professionals reach out to us and say, I bought, then the typical ARC is I bought one, I tested on myself, it worked. I bought five for my clinic. You know, my, my patients want to buy them. Now can you guys send me some stock for it? And so we're working out on how we can do that. But what we found with this is the people who we can really touch by way of this channel that we couldn't any other way is the, the people who are 55 plus because they, they, they feel, and I think part of it is similar to what you're saying. There's this compassion for that. I, I have an empathy for it. I think they're targeted by a lot of unethical companies, no doubt. And so I can, I can, I can see if you get, you know, 99 unethical companies targeting you and there's one ethical, you're, you're going to respond in the same way. You've already kind of had your Pavlovian trade training for it. But when they come in and see this in a clinic and are able to use it at their physio or, you know, their, their orthopedic surgeon says, oh, you're after your knee surgeries, use this. Or if it's at their, their chiropractor, whoever's recommended it to them, yeah, they. They get it. They can use it there. And they go, this is amazing. How does that work? Why is that working? And they can ask their questions with someone that they trust. And I, I think, you know, they. They haven't grown up with social media the same way way. And again, this is the bulk of what we get from the. The skepticism is. Is really that kind of 55 plus group. And, and for me, that. All of those things that I, That I just mentioned where it's. It's, you know, a, they're targeted. B, they didn't grow up with that kind of targeting. Yeah. And see, they have. They have a response to it. That's. That's reasonable. Which is. This seems incredible for me. Even. Even starting into it, even now, it still seems incredible.

It seems like freaking magic. It really does. But, like, so is EMF and what, WI fi. And we don't battle ash at that. There's so many things we can't see there. How about when you plug a plug into the wall? Y', all, like, people forget, like, electricity is magic. There's so much cool in this world that you cannot see. Like, we don't know exactly how our phones work. We love them, though. Somebody might be watching this on their phone right now. It's going into outer space and coming back. Like, do you ever just stop and take a breath and fly as high as you can in the sky and look down and go, wow, what a magical place to exist.

Yes.

What a beautiful place. What an amazing opportunity that our ancestors would have died for. And by the way, they did die for. And I think about my grandpa in World War II and, like, what my ancestors went through coming over from Ellis island to New York. And what were your ancestors?

English? Scottish?

Okay, so look what the tyranny they had to fight to achieve their freedom. And I think about William Wallace and like, you know, that's all still within us on a cellular level. The water that. That supposedly, if you believe in this, and I think that he probably did exist, the water that Jesus drank is still here.

That's right.

Because matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can only be moved and transmuted.

And there's an interesting piece I heard about that as well, which is that we all likely have a molecule of that water inside of us. Like, anybody alive, just. Just by how nature of. Of kind of the statistics for this works, which I haven't validated that. That's an interesting thing to think about. If it's true.

Well, it makes sense if we all Believe that Einstein was correct and the matter in this table will eventually go back to the Earth. At some point, the matter in you and I will definitely go back to the Earth because we ain't getting out here alive. The matter in everything will eventually change and transmute and transmutate into a different form. Then really, the best thing we can possibly do to actually heal the planet is to just heal us.

Yes, that's right.

And we've heard that on some level. And I think the logical mind is like, oh, yeah, heal myself and do my inner child work and make sure I'm in a healthy body and make sure I'm feeling good. But are we actually doing it?

Yes.

Like that's. That's where the rubber meets the road, is are we actually doing it? So, you know, it's funny, I didn't know we were going to go here in this podcast, but I'm going for it because I think it's really important. This is a scientific device. It's very logical in the way that, you know, your team of 30 plus people now across the globe in 15 different time zones is like meeting on how to get this into people's hands so they can actually heal their bodies. But in order for somebody to take the device, use the device, there has to be an internal locus of control in themselves that they actually want to heal. Which goes back to close the loop that I had opened before when I was a trainer and my client that sabotaged herself, she never used her sessions. And I really reflected on that and I was like, wow, what makes people write negative comments, pay for things and not use them? We have over a thousand students in our business Breathe program, and so many students have never used the program. And I just can't understand that because if you're willing to pay money, if you're willing to do the first step, why not finish it? There seems to be a bit, and especially in your world of chronic and acute pain treatment, there seems to be a huge mental block for human beings as to how they sabotage themselves. I wonder if people even buy the device and then not use it. Like, what do you make of this? The psychology behind pain and pain management and healing.

I think one of the big things, and we touched on a little bit earlier, was that chronic pain. And so I was talking about osteoarthritis at the time, but I think chronic pain is very similar in the numbers with the correlation to depression. And when you have that, when you feel unempowered to make these changes for so long, when you've had this chronic pain for so long, it takes away the power. Like, you haven't been able to address that, and it makes you skeptical of the ability to address it. And so I think when somebody comes and says, you know, this is something where you can take an active step, you are empowered to be able to address this, to improve the outcomes for the situation that you're in. There's a resistance to that. There's a kind of a pushback of, oh, you mean I just wasn't doing it this entire time. Like, well, actually, the technology still wasn't there. Like you didn't have that or you weren't exposed to it. And so, so part of it is kind of working through with people. My partner Tom and I have put our calendaries out there with our community. It's very important for us, I think, to be able to interact with them and make sure that we're not selling them a product, we're delivering on it. And anybody who's had a problem with the product, we just say, hey, booking a call with us, we'll walk you through protocols that get you through 99% of the problems that you would have had with this. And part of, of these discussions has been, has been just that, has been a little bit of that, that internal resistance based on that, that depressive state they've been in.

Yeah, I mean, look, neurons that fire together, wire together. And so if I've been stuck in a state of pain and just survival for 10, 20, maybe even 30 years, and I just accept it at some level, it's not about shaming human beings. I mean, gosh, for me, with my weight and just with my own health, I've fallen into that really fallacy trap many times where I think that, oh, it's going to be this way forever. Like, even when I'm going through lack of sleep with my son, I'm sure you've dealt with this, right? Oh, my God, my life is going to fucking suck forever. Like, my son is up at three in the morning last night because we're doing some like, sleep, not sleep training, but like sleep protocols. And you know, the WI fi is off. We're doing all the things, the dark room, the supplements, but still I find myself. And even with all the intelligence training and all the hundreds of guests that I've had on the show, like the brightest minds in our world, Forest have been teaching us and coaching us on wellness and wisdom, how we can get out of the mind trap. And yet I still find that me as a human Being even as a leader, I fall into it just like all of us do. And so I don't know if we ever win or we beat it. I think that it comes to a degree and I'm curious how you feel about this. Like it just comes to a degree where we shorten the cycles of pain. So instead of one cycle of pain being five years, maybe that cycle of pain is five days, maybe it's five minutes. It's about shortening the cycles of recommitment towards a positive mindset, towards a healing mindset of our pain. And it could be physical pain or emotional pain, vice versa. Like what do you make of that?

No, I think that's exactly right. I think it's a moving target always. If you ever feel like you've got it 100%, you don't take a step back, you don't. You could build in processes for how to go kind of in the weeds with it and then pull back to a meta view to try to notice or try to recognize those blind spots that we all fall into. It's that cycle of identify it, fix this, fix that, come back, relook at it though. I've made it. No you haven't. Re look at it and then refine that over time. And I think if you take it like that then you can have, have kind of this positive spiral upwards versus you know, the negative spiral that you know with, with like you're saying shortening those pain cycles, whether psychological or, or physical pain, you can kind of move out of those through an upward spiral versus the, the depression one is just so invidious because it's, it's, it's one of these things that takes your energy to be able to solve problems. It removes your ability to go and proactively engage with these things. And you know, either if you take it in an idea of either I'm never static, I'm either moving down or moving up. You have to keep kind of involving some level of step back into the meta and then some level of engagement at the kind of problem level to be able to keep pushing up your entire life.

I guess we get to remind each other for you to share with the entire World Surf League this technology because, because a few years back I was, I had partnered with a company called Intelliskin and they made these postural garments and it was Dr. Tim Brown's baby and some stuff went down in the company. He actually got kicked out, much like Steve Jobs and Apple, which is wild. Where the founder that makes it actually gets Removed from greedy interest. That ain't gonna happen to you. We're free and clear of that. Okay, but, but what was interesting is Tim said something at his house in Newport and I'll never forget it. He's like, when it comes to the body, you're either a swamp or a river.

Yeah.

And that's exactly what this photobiomodulation is telling us is like when we're. And people don't realize this either. And we talk about this in the BREATHE program. We have four diaphragms and one of the diaphragms is on the cranium where it actually, the cerebral spinal fluid gets recirculated throughout the system when we're not breathing, when we're not moving, when we're essentially that swan swamp, we start to have a lot of things exacerbated that would have never been deleterious before. Can you explain this in a scientific and a simplistic way? I know that's a hard question for a scientist to answer, but, but this concept of swamp and river, and I really do want to introduce you to Tim. I think that'd be a phenomenal relationship. KENNY ON because how many pro surfers are dealing with shoulder and elbow and those guys get crushed by waves? I mean, the hundred foot wave with Garrett McNamara, that series, it's absolutely incredible. I'm sure he could benefit too. So how would you describe it in a simplistic, scientific way, this concept of swamp and river? Has anybody ever asked you something like that?

No, but I think it's a great question. I think that goes back to the kind of thing we mentioned, edema before. And one of the things that we treat very well is edema. There's a functional piece to edema, but also a lot of times you'll see that, that carry on longer than it should because it, it, it brings blood to the area. So you sprain your ankle, it swells up, you have, you had this edema around the, around the area. And it's one of the things that we've treated extremely well or extremely effectively with people in the past is while it's bringing cells that are effective and in improving the quality of the tissue there that's been damaged, they can also be gummed up. And so it can stay around a lot longer than it needs to. And so what you'd like to see is the river version of that. So instead of being the swamp, where that edema just sits, we'd like to see these useful cells come through, do what they need to, and Then keep moving on, kind of like. Yes. And so I think it's a great analogy for how particularly with the edema, you know, the chronic inflammation in the joints like osteoporosis, osteoarthritis that you see, it's very similar. It's just a longer term version of that. The edema, it happens much faster. You're in days scale where with the kind of chronic inflammation that you see, particularly with the damage that you typically see, before we even kind of get to these guys for osteoarthritis to the cartilage and the soft tissue there, it takes longer to remodel that. And you know, people see reduction in inflammation and increased blood flow relatively quickly. But the remodeling soft tissue like that, it's, it's not something you can do quickly even with the increased rate of chondroblast production.

And it doesn't matter how old someone is. I mean somebody could be like 10 years old.

That's right.

Or 90 years old. And they're going to get effectively more of a river from photobiomodulation. And especially if they use it on the regular. So is it, can you use it two, three times a day? Like when does the efficacy go down? In other words, when does the curve of use affect the curve of impact? How many times per day, per week?

It's an amazing question. There's, there's something called an Arnt Schultz curve or the biphasic dose curve, which applies to the dosing models that we've built. But also just dosing photobiomodulation in general, which is, you know, you're never going to be damaging. The, the lasers and lights that are used in this are not. There's two types of kind of lights that you could think of as damaging, particularly from a laser standpoint. And that's above an ionizing kind of ionizing radiation knocks, you can think of just knocking electrons out of their, their normal path. And that's not great. You don't want to have that to happen. It'll, it's, it's what UV does and it damages DNA and a number of different kind of negative impacts. There's an even higher level of energy that you can kind of push through with these, which is ablative lasers, which is essentially what they use for surgery. So how you cut tissue. So it's essentially just burning super powerful lasers. Okay, that's right. And so those are called ablative and those are actually just burning tissue. But we're, we're way below ablative. We're way below ionizing. And because of that, you have this curve, which is, here's your baseline of where you are now and dosing up to a certain point. The higher the dose, the better the outcome. And then past the, the peak of that, then you start getting, it never goes below zero, so you, you approach zero, but it'll go back down with, with regards to the, the outcomes that you get from it. And that's, it's important to understand because, you know, people, we get people like, hey, these are lasers. Is it going to zap me? Is it going to, like. Yeah, you know, so that's, that's the first thing. But with the, the dosing piece of it, we, we suggest the maximum you want to dose is to hit the kind of peak of that curve is 15 minutes. And you can do that twice a day because the molecules that you interact with, from a signaling standpoint, reset for lack of a better term. And so you can do that optimally twice a day. And yeah, across all ages. I have two boys, 4 and 7, and they love it. They're kind of wild. It's two of them. And so they're always getting skinned knees or sprained ankle or, you know, cut this, cut that.

Oh, yeah.

And they, they, the first thing they come back and ask for is the light. Now, particularly with the sprained ankles, you'll see the wound healing on this is great. It's, it's really impactful for being able to increase collagen production. And it actually helps to structure. And there's some very good microscopy work that's gone on in this recently where you can kind of see a standard tissue from a scar that's, that's just matted, and it's bigger and thicker and less mobile. But when you see one that's been treated with a laser therapy, there's more collagen, too. It increases the rate of production of collagen, 2 type 2 collagen. And it also makes these align more effectively. So it keeps the scars smaller and it makes them more mobile and a little bit more flexible. So just makes it healthier tissue long term. We've had a number of folks who have been using this for cesarean scars as an example and seen great results.

Interesting. Okay, so let's say, for example, like, I know on my left big toe, I have mobility issues where I can't necessarily flex the toe like I can on my right. And so that impacted my calf mobility, and I wasn't able to have as much ankle dorsiflexion. Which then hurt my squat. And then I, unfortunately five years ago I actually tore my medial gastroc. So when people have, have significant trauma like that, like let's say scar tissue at the toe and then in the calf muscle or just any muscle in the body at all, I know that this device can't restructure the way the muscle spindle actually appears or, or you know, how it is in there. But how could it, how could it actually improve blood flow for something that's been, let's say scar tissued for five years or more like, is that even possible? Would you have to use an extreme dose? What is an extreme dose? All the things.

So if it's been, if the scar tissue has been there for time, for some period of time, it's not going to happen quickly that that scar tissue still dies and then is replaced by additional scar tissue. So it will do it over time, but that's years kind of cycle. So high, high months to years. But with that said, if you have a, that muscle tear in your gastroc, I would, I would treat that regularly because what we see with that traumatic, traumatic tissue damage is that it can create cold pools of tissue in, in the body. And so we, we've worked with some top tier CrossFit athletes where you put them and they've, they've got kind of a recurring issue in, in you know, with the muscle in their back and they're trying to do overhead work.

I can't imagine why. Those guys are warriors and ladies too. So wild. They cannot believe the stuff they do.

Oh, it's, it's amazing. Like it's, it's really impressive to watch and I, I like it's, it's, it's, I consider on a wash it all day but they'll do, you know, six or seven hours of training in a day and it's, it's just so heavy from a workload and the central nervous strain that it puts on. I, I, you know, it's hard to think of, you know how, and you know, it's, it's kind of the, you know, how do you eat an elephant? It's, it's one bite at a time. They've grown to that by decades of training but it's still impressive to see. Once you, you can kind of see that relative to what a normal person's performance anaerobically and, and from a strength standpoint is combining those two things, things into something like that, it's just crazy. But yeah, what we noticed is putting them on the infrared cameras, they would have, you know, where. Where they had recurring injuries. They would have this cold pool of tissue where the blood flow there was a swamp again. And I, I think that's a great, A great analogy for it. And so it's the same thing where we're saying where you go back and treat the quad five or six weeks, you teach that endothelial tissue to deliver blood more effectively. Again, it was exactly the same thing. And so if you have. And. And those cold pools can stay around for years. So if you have, you know, a torn muscle, that's. That's traumatic tissue damage, likely you have some kind of impairment in the area because of the inflammation that that's triggered longer term, just a. If you have. So FLIR makes a pretty cool camera for this called the flir one that's, you know, you can attach to your cell phone and, and measure these things.

No way.

Yeah. It's all awesome.

That's so cool. So you can actually get it for like an iPhone and attach it.

Yes.

And you can use the device, the photom modulation. And then see on the heat map in the body where the treatment has.

Been done, if you put the devices on there, you'll be able to see before and after, you see the colder area, and then you'll see these kind of like outlines of where the blood flow is just kind of zoomed over the 15 minutes that you treat it. How.

That is so amazing. You could never get that. You'd have to literally go to a specialized medical office.

Yes.

To get that. And now you can get it on our phone.

Yes.

It makes me. It makes me wonder, like, so when I'm 60, which is a crazy thought. How old are you?

43.

Okay, so I'm 43 as well. So when we're 60, like 17 years from now, the technology that's going to exist, we cannot even imagine what it's going to be, what it's going to be imagined into it. It's just impossible to think what would happen because, you know, back in the day, there was the Moore's law theory, and maybe that's still applying. And then there was the human evolution curve, which I just talked about this in a podcast, but this is perfect timing for us. So I think seven or ten years ago, the. The evolution of technology became a hockey stick.

Yes.

Where it just exploded upwards and there's really no telling where it'll go. But human evolution from, like an epigenetic expression has only actually changed 2% or less in our entire lifespan. So the body and the consciousness and just our human physiology is like struggling to catch up with the speed of tech. So I just wonder like, could this be the technium that Kevin Kelly talks about? Could this be the healing through technology itself that humanity has been asking for on such a deep level? Could technology be truly loving consciousness through the technium that allows us to heal in a level that we could have never even imagined. Imagined?

I, I think it's, it's in the mail. We're, we're super excited about it because we feel like there's, there's something that we have now that can be a gold standard for pain and inflammation. But even more exciting than that, our, our next product, which I, I think I, I started on early and we agreed with my partner to keep, keep the first product a little bit more simple. So my druthers was, was kind of my baby, which is this brain product that we've been working on, which combines photobiomodulation with sensor technology to be able to measure hemodynamics and metabolic dynamics in the brain. That kind of begs the question like, why would you want to, why would you want to measure those two things? And it's super exciting, but basically both from a performance standpoint. So we're both relatively healthy guys. There are things you can do to improve the metabolic dynamics that can improve your cognitive function function on a day to day basis. But also there are really over the past five years of testing and this is the assumption that we're making with kind of going into this device. What we've seen from medical literature is that everything, not everything, very many behavioral pathological pathologies that you see from the, from, you know, know from the brain. Neurological pathologies from the brain are based in metabolic health. And so you see kind of major depressive disorder, bipolar, chronic anxiety, adhd, a number of different dementias, and also things like addiction that we can already treat kind of in a sweet spotted, non dialed in non personalized way with photobiomodulation. So there's, there's great literature on, you know, treating a single hemisphere of your brain in the prefrontal cortex and being able to increase the rate of getting people out of addiction for opiates.

Is this the remote photobiomodulation that you're talking about?

It's paired with that, it pairs in with that. So we're, you know, remote photobiomyodulation, if you've, if you've not heard the term before, is essentially using the light therapy, laser therapy on tissue that's not local to to what you're trying to treat. And people have been doing testing with this mostly, mostly successfully around two different areas, which is your, the long bones, your femur's in your legs, and then your gut. And these are two areas that generate downstream signaling that shows up in your brain. And so when they're paired with brain treatment, these are additive and are able to increase. So with the gut treatment as an example, we're actually working on a gut microbiome therapy device that we'll be releasing later this year that can increase dopamine that can help balance the FB ratio. The FB ratio is a ratio that's indicative of gut health. That's a ratio between two different classes of bacteria in your gut. To your point about where this is going in 17 years, the measurements that we're able to take relative to these for the brain, we're working on our own technology for how to measure that with broadband near infrared spectroscopy and provide a feedback loop to the brain treatments for the gut. What we're looking at right now is what they call metabolomics, which is essentially there's a number of different omics kind of areas.

Nutrigenomics, yes, all that gut proteomics.

But the one for us that we're looking at for the gut is metabolomics, which is all of these different things in your gut produce metabolites. With a fecal study, we can measure those and then we can use machine learning to be able to interpret or interpolate kind of behavioral, dietary, what's benefiting, how do you measure? And again, this comes back to one of the things we work on a lot of which is when we're making a device, how do we know it's successful? What, what measurements can we put in place to make sure that we are holding ourselves accountable to the expectations of our users and our own expectations. And the metabolomics work that's been happening over the past five to 10 years is just crazy. It's, it's, it's really giving us a solid measurement point to be able to do this. We feel like long term, it's very powerful technology. We can measure a thousand different metabolites that come out of your gut and then we can say in what quantities and what bacteria they're relative to. And we can use machine learning to map back to interpretive things for behavior out of those. That's still just a picture. What we're, what we're most excited about is, and again, we're taking our first step into this with the brain product is what's happening with the technology around optical sensors. And so there's been huge boosts that people are quite aware of I think in AI and machine learning from a software standpoint. What I think people have been less exposed to is there's been huge boosts and steps forward from a technology standpoint in emitters for lasers, there's new classes of lasers. And the lasers that we are seeing in these kind of less new, but still relatively new technologies are coming down in price and coming down in size and being able to be ramped up from a volume standpoint to use for a number of different applications.

Why are they getting so cheaper?

They're being adopted by larger industries. So if you look at, if you have a phone that's later, if you have an iPhone that's iPhone 12 or later, they're using a similar LED, assume a similar laser diode, then that we are called a vertical cavity surface emission laser for being able to scan your face and let you into the phone tone. When larger industries adopt these types of upstream components, the manufacturing processes get a lot more money to go into them and the machines and the tooling and the, the scale of everything gets a lot larger. The cost of the actual materials, typically, especially when they're quite small parts like this, isn't huge. And so it's just this, it's really how much, how many dollars, how much volume can go into the scale. And we really focus on this from a supply chain standpoint point because our, our goal is to be the gold standard for photobiomodulation. And if we are, then this is an alternative we see as an alternative to pharmaceuticals for pain and inflammation.

Absolutely.

Which means we need to erode the price curve so more people can use it. That's, that's our mission is to, to get this in as many hands as we can and, and to move the needle from a quality of life standpoint as measurably as possible. Well, on one side we're, we're starting to measure things in the physiology that really justify the quality of life. On the other side we're really focused on how do we erode the prices of this and how do we make it less friction to adopt and so making it, you know, battery driven, making it transportable and travel friendly, making it wearable. All of these have been steps that we've taken with the assumption that by reducing the friction points that people have for this and by reducing the price, we're going to, we're going to see be amazing adoption for it because it should be. It's providing great results and it's treating. It's putting out the fire in the kitchen, which is the big thing. Like, instead of. Instead of taking these. These batteries out of the fire alarm.

Yeah.

Let's. Let's really focus on how do we put out the fire in the kitchen in the most effective way.

Imagine that, you know, when you're in China and you spent 20 years plus in China, right?

Almost 20 years. Yeah, that's right.

So when you're in China, I'm sure you saw so much, much go down. And, you know, look, I'm not really that stoked on a political conversation right now, but we all know what's going on in China. You can just do a quick search and see the absolute horrific genocide, abuse, neglect, torture, famine, regime. Throw any kind of nomenclature you want on it. It's happening in China.

Like, yeah, yeah.

I really do feel. And, you know, I'll probably lose and gain some people for saying this, but. But I feel like China is a focal point for demonic energy in the world. China's got a lot of beauty. There's a lot of history in China. But unfortunately, with, you know, Ping and his regime and everything that's going on in China, thank God you got out. And I. I feel pity for anyone who's there, really, truly, we're so grateful to be in America. I'm so, so, so grateful to be here where, yes, we have our issues and our problems, but. But we also are free to some degree. And the more free we are, the more autonomous we are, and I believe that. And I'm curious how you feel about this, coming from 20 years in China and dealing with the hurdles that you dealt with, and also just maturing as a man. And were your kids born out in China as well?

One of them was.

So what could you share with us about what you learned from China? That is something that we want to move away from. And also, how can technology that. That we get from China actually help us here in America? Like, it's a sticky subject because that almost feels like opposing forces with the politics of China. And then also what is needed here in America and in the world for our healing?

It's a. It's a broad question, but a very good one. I. I think I have a whole.

Podcast on its own. It's like we're not even able to cover the. The depths of that, but on a high level.

Yeah, at a high level. Let me. Let me just say I did feel very lucky to be in China at the Time I was the, the, the explosion from the late 90s to the 2000 and tens that happened in China. The, the industrialization, although they got a lot of things wrong, they, they did in this time pull a number of people from relative poverty to kind of lower middle class to middle class. I think what's been worrying about the last years is that what we saw over the time, the majority of the time I was, there was an opening and a liberalizing and a westernizing acceptance out of China. Even if it was slow, it was, it was, it seemed to be moving in the right direction. I think what you've seen with the current regime is that that's gone 180 degrees back in, in the wrong direction. And I, I, I do feel lucky to have had with. I, I left with my family from China because of COVID Because you could feel the lockdowns coming and I, I didn't want to get locked in there. And then when.

God, you got out. Yes, my God, but it's great.

And, and it forced me. And it's one of these things we were talking about earlier where, you know, you, you, you don't notice your own blind spots. But I, that was default for me. That was a comfortable space. I, I speak and read and write, you know, fluent Chinese and I, I had been operating my businesses in Chinese for some time and I was comfortable there. If I had hadn't been locked out when we went traveling with my family, I would have gone back and been in that same lifestyle. And I think it was the right time to be out. And I, I feel like this was kind of an outside intervention of some sort where it put me into a new life. I now live in Mexico and it's been amazing that the lifestyle there has been much better. The growth path for myself and my family really just, just everything has been so much better. But I wouldn't have questioned that. I would have stayed in my default mode and not come back out to meta. And it's wrong. I think this is the same thing we were talking about earlier with those dynamic views to things is you really have to go out to meta and then back into the problem or you get stuck in these default positions. And it's unfortunate, but it happens to everyone.

I bet when you eat a taco in Mexico, you feel more free than when you eat food in China. And it could be any food. I'm just talking. I love tacos. Who doesn't love tacos? Tacos are amazing. Yeah. The reason I asked that is because we're we're, we're being pushed and pulled in different ways. And so in order for health to be a conversation that's fluent, that everybody speaks the language of health, there has to be an adoption of health on a very unconscious level. But in order for that unconscious adoption, there has to be things moved out out to create space for actually empowering ways of thinking to be present. And so it's not just China, by the way. Like we have the same type of regimes here. I mean, I truly believe that the Biden regime is controlling things in a way that's quite similar to China. When you were there, did you have to participate in the social credit scoring and all that?

That was just ramping up as I left. But it's not really like the episode.

In Black Mirror where the woman had her score in her phone. I don't know if y' all have seen this.

Yes, that's. But that's exactly. That's going on there now.

It's there now for sure.

Yes.

You can literally have your bank account shut off if you don't participate in the way that the government wants you to participate.

That's right.

It's absolutely insane.

And it's becoming more of a nanny state and that's. That intrusion into your personal life is becoming heavier and heavier. And again, that, that's the opposite of what was happening while I was there there. Even though it was a very heavily controlled state, it was moving to opening. And so a lot of things in life, whether it's training or diet or anything, is as long as you're moving in the right direction, that's what's more apparent to you, I think. But when you see that go completely 180 and not take two steps back, take 10 steps back like it's happened with the past five years really is, is disappointing. And I think it's something where it's going to trigger longer term international friction. I think you're looking at something. There's a lot of risks that China has right now. Their food systems are necessarily import based. Their economy has been slowing based on the decreased amount of foreign direct investment that's going in year by year.

Yeah, I've heard of this.

They have a huge amount of risk. They're also an extremely old population and getting older and not quite to the Japanese level, but growth, unemployment's, you know, 20% there. Growth has kind of stopped and is reversing in some areas. The real estate market has been overinvested. They have huge real estate companies that have been going bust evergrande is huge Hu. I mean the size of these, the scale.

Have you, have you seen these ghost cities? Yes, I think it's something like over a million.

Yes.

Different spaces in China or more and I might be undercutting that number by a lot. But there's these ghost cities in China where they're literally just massive cities that are dormant. Almost like a scene from I am Legend where it's just like there's deer running around and there's these massive complexes. What is going on there and how can we learn from that as entrepreneurs, as men and women, as, as parents shepherding the new generation? Like what are they doing?

So one of the things that's driven long term investment in real estate in China is the fact that it's been rescued. It's been too big to fail. So this is, we've, we've had our own too big to fail issues. And I, I think this is maybe the, the correlation that we can learn something from. But when we see so, so first, what drove this massive investment for real estate, one was demographic trends. So you had a larger number of people moving from West China where it was lower pay and more countryside to the cities. And that drove a need for a lot of real estate. The second thing is the government wouldn't let any of these real estate companies fail. They, they saw them as key to national security. And so normally what you see with any kind of, particularly with the possibility of speculative investment kind of segments is that people invest, invest, invest, over invest, market, correct, come down, invest, invest, invest and then overcorrect. And then, and so you see this cycle, what would happen with China is they'd do that, they'd hit the peak, it'd start coming down and the government put additional spending into, generally into the economy. But also just backing this with language around our, we're still growing, we're not going down. Their economy was generating enough cash at the time from exports to be able to support that. Over time their debt as a country, but also on a personal level has increased and so the risk of that has increased as well. So as you, as you're higher leveraged for this and as you slow down with the number of people moving from the west to the east, basically all of the trends that drove it in the first place are starting to kind of peter off. And also you go through four or five cycles where you're supposed to correct and you don't, you end up with massive amounts of overbuilding in the space and inflation as well. And that's what's really driven these kind of ghost towns, but also the building out around of the large cities of China. You know, look at the difference between the pictures that always get circulated is Shenzhen, where in South China in the 70s, late 70s, it was a fishing village, you know, 30,000 people. And it ends up being at the time when Deng Xiaoping opens that area as a test to see in what he said was philosophical turn away from communism or turn into testing away from communism was black cat, white cat, as long as it catches a mouse, and this is paraphrasing, but as long as it catches a mouse, I don't care. If these entrepreneurs can make this area grow, then we're going to let them kind of essentially operate under a more capitalist model. And that area went from 30,000 people to 20 million plus in a couple of decades. And all of this has been government backed, but it's also been supporting the government supporting these real estate companies for this. But right now you're starting to see them backing off of that. So they a. They don't know, they don't. They no longer have these cash positive economy to be able to support it. From a cash flow standpoint you're starting to see more consumer debt in, in. So debt in general is just ramping up and they're also allowing these companies to fail. So there was a very large one called Evergreen grand which has been allowed to fail, which is from a signaling standpoint from the Chinese state, a really big signal that we're not here to really save this anymore. This needs to be self sustaining. You're now probably five or six cycles in of where it's been buoyed by the government. They couldn't let it completely drop because if it does, it's going to be a massive crash. They would put some cash behind it in general for the economy there. But these cities are been building out, these ghost cities have been building out for, for decades now.

It's so insane. We had some on the screen when you were talking so people can actually feel the weight, the gravity of how honestly bleak and dark this is really becoming. And you know what comes up for me when I hear you speak and just this entire, when I, when I sense into it what's going on over there and I've never been there. That's why I was genuinely curious because you spent so much time there. I just wanted to know what you felt because to me it seems like if, if there is a spiritual teacher on the earth and he or she could shout some wisdom, I bet you they would say, well, this is really about you understanding what happens when you fill yourself with pride. Because the Japanese culture, with what happens with the nuclear meltdowns and the way they hid that information from the world, and then they later came out that it was actually their fault. What went down with Wuhan and even the origin of the coronavirus were supposedly some bat ate a watermelon and then made out with a bear or something. Like, who the hell actually knows that story? We all know that now there's evidence pointing to things going down there. So I think that spiritual teacher call it God, call it the omnipresent energy that loves and guide all things. The energy would probably say, well, this is your lesson. This is the lesson for you as a humanity as to what happens when you saturate yourself with pride and with envy and with greed. Like, I'm not going to get biblical with it, but there is some wisdom in the Bible. I'm not a Christian per se, but I do acknowledge the fact that there's a higher power. It's the same higher power that brought out tears in you when you think about alleviating the pain of millions of people in the world. It's the same God inside of me where I feel the swell of emotion beyond just this podcast about how many people have had their lives saved or impacted by just hearing what's going on outside of their own consciousness. Like that, to me, is God. So I wonder how you feel about this as we round out this incredible podcast. I didn't know we were going to go so philosophical and so deep, but honestly, the more that I felt into the tech, I mean, these questions arose naturally anyways.

Absolutely, yeah.

What do you make of the evolution of consciousness, the evolution of humanity right now on planet Earth? Especially when with all of your geography and travel and everything that you've been through and being an entrepreneur with employees across the world, like, what do you make of all this? What is some wisdom that you could share with us about how you live your life?

Well, so I would say that I may not be the one to follow for this because I am a wild and kind of unbridled optimist. I feel like the. There's so much we can do with the technology and the correct steering that our lives and our children's lives can benefit from this. And it's so worth the time for us to go build these things in the correct way that I think, again, my willful optimism aside, I really feel like there's a new world out here. There's so much happening, so much faster, both from a hardware and software software standpoint that we really need to focus on personally. And again, I don't want to put this on anyone else. I feel led to focus on where that connects with us and our human experience. And I really feel like that's the key. Having podcasts like this where you can see new information and bring to people something that's going to move the needle for them. Where was that 10 years ago? Where was that? It just hasn't existed.

It wasn't on a black and white TV screen that was owned by five of the major networks in the world. It was. Wasn't there.

That's exactly right. This feeds my optimism more. So you probably shouldn't encourage me, but the information is more free now and there's going to be. I think the issues with that is that you have more sources and so it's harder to filter it. So there's going to be filtering kind of steps that, that happen for qualifying and quantifying to some degree what sources of information are going to be most effective in changing the daily lives from a quality of life standpoint, kind of, again, it goes back to measuring like we do with our devices. I'm sure you had a similar thing where I was meeting with some friends of mine who ended up playing professional ball that I played with in high school and talking about the programming and the fitness and the diet that we had then versus what we have now. I'm stronger and fitter at 43 than I was at 20 years old. That's crazy, for sure. And that's, again, that feeds my optimism and maybe pushes it to an almost unreasonable level, but I think that's something to live by. I think we can take this optimism and turn it into empowerment and turn it into steps that we can take action on. And I hope that people are taking away from these type of podcasts all the information they can, but also that sense that you have this information now, you can do something with it, you can change things and that impact is real and it's going to be ongoing. So every day that you do it, it every day that you can make a 2% change, that's. That's not something to think about next week with. That's something to think about, you know, when we're 60 with and when our, when our kids are 60, you know, that's, for me, that's kind of change the timescale. Keep the optimism and commit to, to what you can to be able to make a difference.

Yeah, I mean, the reflection here, and I know all of us can feel this is. You're one of the most integrated CEOs I've met, and we had a preparatory call where I was, like, learning more about the tech. Because, you know, to understand the depths of this, it requires some time. I mean, you've done a good way of articulating the simplicity of it at the 30,000ft. And we've also gone into some very spiritual and philosophical areas, which I appreciate, because why are we doing any of this in the first place? Why does this technology even exist? It is to serve humanity. This podcast is here to serve human beings, otherwise it wouldn't exist. Because that's how the reciprocity of abundance actually exists, is we inhale, we exhale. You take from abundance. Abundance is still there, to quote Bob Proctor. So, you know, I wonder this. I wonder if somebody's watching and maybe they're watching for the second time. And by the way, absolutely share this with somebody that is going through pain. This will truly change their life. Just the emotion that's been in this podcast and just everything that y' all have been experiencing, this is an episode to share. This is definitely one that you want to share with somebody that's experiencing chronic pain or maybe even just depression or anxiety, because the concepts here, here can lead down some pretty awesome rabbit holes when it comes to being well and living your life well. So, you know, to say goodbye. It's on the screen again. Joshtrend.com forward/kineon. The code is Josh10. You can try this. And by the way, if it doesn't work for them or something goes on, they can just send it back.

Send it back 30 days.

Okay, so you have zero risk. You have literally nothing to lose, which is kind of rare in the world. You have nothing to lose. So it's on the screen. Give this a go. Go. Make sure that, you know, it's something that you've been struggling with for some time and give it some time to heal. I mean, they would need at least a month or two. Right.

And we've always extended out. Again, we're here to solve the problem. We've extended out everyone who's ever asked for those more than 30 days.

Yes.

We've also given our calendly. So if you have a problem with it or if you're not getting, if you're not feeling what you should be out of this, reach out and call. We're here to help support sport. So hopefully, hopefully that can make people more comfortable with that. That that step of. Of taking a. A positive step and an empowered step to get out of pain in. In their lives.

Yeah. And I think that the. The form factor of this is the most interesting thing because you can do it on the airplane. You can do it in the car. You can literally do it anywhere. I mean, you can't take it underwater, though, right?

Can't take it underwater.

Okay, don't take it underwater. You don't want lasers underwater.

Lasers and sharks.

No, lasers and sharks. I really enjoyed this, Forest. I. I feel a great connection with you. I know that the audience and everybody that gets touched in their heart by this podcast is going to feel the same thing. So until we see you again, Forest and I are both wishing you love and wellness, and we'll talk to you guys soon. Hey, thanks for watching this video. If you love this video, hit subscribe. That way you'll be automatically notified when new videos come out, new episodes, and also share this video with a friend. If you loved it, they're gonna love it, too. Check out some of the videos on this screen that are perfectly curated based on the video you just saw. Make sure you follow me and I'll see you in the next video.