Relationship Death + Rebirth: How To Bring Back Love In Your Relationship

I thought, he's going to come home and say, I'm done. I can't do it anymore. And I actually was going to be like, nope, sorry. You're going to figure it out with me.

There's no way we could have gone on. So I actually was done. I was complete with the relationship. You were complete with the relationship, too.

My soul wanted to be with you. And I could see what that was like. I know there's like a big love between us. Like, I can feel our soul resonance so deeply. And then here we are on this earthly plane, ego, personality, just putting us at war all the time.

I saw you both loving each other so much. And yet this confusion of what that needs to look like, because where hereditary generational trauma gets passed on. And I also see all of our ancestors looking at this moment going, we didn't know how to make it good. Can you. And we're like, yes, we are actually changing this understanding of love.

I have to let go of everything that is triggering me and everything that I think is wrong and everything that I'm blaming you and shaming you or judging you about and just be like, like, okay, like, what can I really learn from this? You're. You're not my dad. You're not my mom. But on some visceral level, like, that lives in us, you know, in our cells, and we unconsciously push it onto the. Onto the person that we love. And it's just so sad that we. That we do that. And it's so liberating to have that awareness. Welcome to the podcast. This is Josh Trent. This is wellness and Wisdom. It's the place where we explore these five sides of the wellness Pentagon, our physical, emotional, mental, spiritual and financial self. Look, we signed up to be a human being. Part of being a human being is that we agreed to nourish these five sides of the house we live in. This is the Pentagon. On the screen that you all know that the more you nourish it, the better your life gets. But how do we do this? How do we know ourselves enough so that we can love ourselves, so we can show up in our power, so we can actually do this thing, life, in the biggest and best way possible. Today on the podcast. This is a super special episode. I do not say that lightly. It's probably the most straight up exposed and vulnerable and raw and real episode you are going to hear today, or maybe even this month or this year when it comes to relationships. There's two guests on the podcast today. One of them is the love of my life, my lady, my partner, the mother of my children, Kerry Michelle Boley. We also have a veteran of life, a true wise elder, and I say that with ultimate respect. There's only probably been about six or five people on the podcast that I would acknowledge as true elders, and Margo Running is one of them. Margo is a beautiful soul. Keri Michelle and I have been working with her for six, seven months. We did a beautiful medicine journey that we talk about in this podcast, and there's so much wisdom. I know that's what you're gonna get from this podcast today. The wisdom that Margo brings and the wisdom that Keri Michelle and I are sharing with you is earned. This isn't something that we downloaded from a PDF. We actually went through the trenches ourselves, opened up our hearts, and went through a true death and rebirth process. Now, if you've been in relationship for a long time, or maybe you're wanting relationship, or maybe even you're struggling with the relationship of loving you, this is the perfect place for you to start. No further waiting. Let's dive in right here, right now, with the one and only Margot running, Kerri, Michelle, and myself to go deep on what it really means to go through a death and rebirth. All right, let's drop in with Kerry, Michelle and Margot running on wellness and wisdom.

Whoa.

We're here, Margot. We're here. Carrie, Michelle, we made it. I cannot believe that we're about to do probably one of the best podcasts ever. And it's coming from my heart, which all of them have come from my heart, but this one is really coming from a deep place because just last night we did a ceremony here, and through divine will, divine everything, you were able to come out to Austin. And, you know, Carrie and I have been working with you for. Gosh, is it a year, babe? About a year now.

Six months.

It feels like a year. And, yeah, it's just been. You've touched a place in my heart that's so deep, and I had no plans of having you on the podcast, and I had always wanted to do a podcast with Carrie, so here we are. Um, and I'm not gonna lie, I'm nervous because I think it's gonna be the most real shit we ever talked about, which is amazing. Yeah. Maybe I'll. I'll start with you, Carrie. Babe, why did we. Why did we really feel called to Margot? Like, what did you trust in Margot?

That.

That you didn't trust in anyone else that we worked with?

Well, trust, I think, was the big Key for me there was just a. Well, first I was looking for like an elder, someone who's had a lot of life experience that could really see things from a non judgmental place and maybe in a humble way. So I had worked with Margot before I got pregnant with Nya and I really loved the way she worked and just her gentleness and deep empathy and compassion in each session was really like different to me. And I could tell like she's like figuring it out with me versus like I'm, I know the way and I'm better. So that's kind of what I've experienced in the past with previous therapists and Margot was just very humble. And so we were going through hard times after Nya was born and she, I had been thinking about her like, who would be our next person to work with as a couple? Because I was doing individual sessions. So one, one night she messaged me. I can't remember what it was about but then I left her like a minute voice message asking if she would work with me and you. And I like felt like I needed to prepare her for our fires. And she's like, she's like, oh, I can handle fire. I like being in the fire.

Yeah.

So, yeah, the rest is history. And you know, I'm so deeply grateful that we continued on with her because it has led us to a beautiful rebirthing.

Yeah. And a painful death and a beautiful love as well. I'm just so grateful for you that you've stuck in there and that you've just chosen to love me. It's such a beautiful thing. And really chose yourself, which I know we're going to get into. And I, I chose Me too. Yeah. Margo, I, I. You're one of those people that there, you have no website, there's no marketing, but you're so powerful, you're so good at what you do. Like, what is it? Like, what do you do? Does anybody ever ask you that? Like what do you do?

What do I do? Be present. I've been told I'm naturally a present person, redeemed past, hopeful future. So. But it's, I enjoy nature. I was raised camping and canoeing and had a big backyard and you know, in the 50s you played a lot out in the yard and the streets in the neighborhood. So I, you know, that was the blessing of the time, but still just enjoying. Not, I didn't never felt alone. I had my imaginary world that I played with. Yeah. How am I, who I am? I don't know. But I love life. I Love the times we're in. I've always been engaged with little things, big things. Being a teacher of young children, which I did for 20 years of just really being in the moment with them, they say, oh, how can you manage a whole group of kindergarten children? It's just like, you be in the moment with them. And that became part of my belief that all behaviors are just looking for connection. And so working with young children, you got to work with parents. And I started deepening that and deepening that. Now I'm retired from teaching. I love continuing my work with parents.

I mean, you're kind of always a teacher, though, just hanging out with.

But I never had a. I didn't know that it could be spoken that I could. It took a while for me to find my voice and really realizing this is for sharing, this is for. That's how. And now that all these. The world's always had difficulties and wars and things, and it's like, you know, I don't listen to the news a lot, but I'm very aware of them in looking at the history of them. But what is my. What is my gift? How can I. In working with people's. The war, the real war to me is between the mind and the heart. And if I can really have that conversation and help people have that conversation somehow. It's my work for evolution and for hope to give other people there is hope that I can get at peace here and then to see the magic of. Then get peace in relationship with their child, with their spouse, with their parents, or, you know, that's how we work with the traumas and dramas that we see in the world. You gotta own it and be gentle with it. And again, all behaviors are looking for connection and attachment. That's inward, too, rather than, oh, I'm so stupid. Oh, I didn't do it. Oh, you know, we. We bad talk ourselves and how to just like, say, wow, you're. You're protected. It's okay. It's okay.

Yeah. I was telling you yesterday that there's only been like maybe five or six people on this podcast that are true elders. And after hanging out with you and having you guide us and just be with our family, like, it's. It's. It's such an honor. Like, brings up emotion to me. Like, you're a true elder. And it's interesting because it's like, there's no marketing to you. There's no, like, facade. You're not trying to, like, get a lead magnet and have people go to your website it's like you just. There's this trust in you that's so powerful and, you know, to set the stage like, we. We were in probably the worst place we've ever been, ever. And I've used this podcast as therapy, you know, where I've talked about our relationship with this podcast. So I think it's so amazing to have you here and be able to, like, really share what we've been through, because how much service will that be to others? Like. And of course, there's. There's a lot of energy moving through me because we've been through a lot in the past day, babe.

It's been a lot, so it's a bit vulnerable to.

It is. Totally is. Yeah. But let's go for it.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm. I'm in men's groups, and I've been getting wise counsel from men, and a lot of what I thought would be this breakthrough with you and I was you changing. And what was the craziest part, through your guidance, Margo, is that I realized that, like, I was at least half or more of the disconnection, the. The lack of truth and. And the lies. I'll just pull the E break, babe, if you're cool with that. So the very beginning of our relationship, you were with another man. I was with another woman. And then I had gotten a psychic shattering from Ayahuasca. It was crazy. I was in a really bad place. I was 80 grand in debt. It was gnarly. I don't know if you knew that or not. Now you do. I mean, you knew I was in some.

You told me you were a millionaire.

So I was. You know, I came to you with my own. My own suitcase full of stuff. And you know, what I. What I didn't realize and what came clear to me this past week, you know, we took a separation through Margo's guidance. And you know what came. What came through for me from, I'm just going to say, like, JP Sears and Mark Groves and my friend Brad and just other men that were sharing with me. It took me to this place where I was just crying for three days, and I realized that this anxious avoidant dance that we've been playing, I had a massive role in it. And it was so fucking freeing, so liberating to just be like, okay, how am I contributing to this? And why am I wanting her to change so much? It's because from the very beginning, we built our relationship on sand. You know, I built the relationship on sand. I didn't choose Myself. There were certain things that happened where there was the line in the sand needed to be drawn for me to be. To be good with myself and be cool with myself. And I chose to abandon in the very beginning. So there was this complete death of what I thought the issue was and what I thought the problem was. And I think what's clear. What's very clear to me now is, like, the way that I was wanting to protect myself, the way that I was projecting my fears of the relationship ending on you was just adding to the anxious avoidant dance. Like it was making it even worse. And so, yeah, I just, you know, I told you yesterday in the ceremony, but, like, I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that you chose me, even with all the stuff. Even with all that I brought in. So thank you. And. And holy, what a ride we've been on with Margot, you know, in the past day. Plus. Yeah. I just love you. I love you so much. And thank you for choosing me and thank you for choosing us and being the mother of my children. I just want to honor you to the world. I just want to tell the world how much I love you and how much I care for you. Yeah.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Yeah. So beautiful. Your share. And thanks for, like, being truly honest and vulnerable. Yeah, I really respect that you're sharing it from your perspective. And I have a different perspective on the beginning of our relationship. You know, I. I hear you say a lot that we built our foundation on sand and that you came with your baggage, and I think most relationships do that. And I think there's like, a true unraveling in relationship that you. We become really idealistic. Like, you so want to just stay on the lane of that vision that you have as a couple that you kind of have the rose colored glasses on and you just continue on and you ignore all the signs and signals and, you know, my perspective is that you don't really know that until you got to where we've got. And we can actually look back in retrospect, and now it makes sense.

Yeah.

But then it's like we didn't know. We thought we're just doing the best with what we knew. And yeah, through this relationship, I've definitely. You've mirrored so many, like, deep, deep. Yeah. Wounds in me that I probably would have never move through if it wasn't for our relationship. So you're thanking me for staying. I'm thinking you for staying through all the. The hard times. And. Yeah, you're really such a solid Devoted man. And I'm so glad we're coming out on the other side. I know there's still a lot of work to continue, but it just feels good to be honest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And be in truth.

Yeah. Yeah. So about it, for. For everyone here. What. What it was was I. I knew that I. I should have left. I should have given you more space in the beginning to heal, and. And you mirrored that back in your own way. And so going. I think you even mentioned something to us, like, if. If you honor the past, then you can actually live free in the. In the present. Something like that. You can speak to that, please, in your own words in a minute. But, yeah, for me, it was, like, really, really going to the parts of myself that I had left when I met you, because I had this grand vision of, like, I saw the sunset with us, but I, like, missed the tar pit. You know, I was just, like. I was so focused on the sunset, which, you know, we're in it now. I mean, I'm watching the sunset with you now. Like, holy shit, we're on the other side of it, you know? And of course, there'll be other things that come up, but, like, I love you enough to stay committed to this 2.0, to this new relationship that we've created. But I'll tell you, it felt way different than I thought it would feel to, like, be in true union and be in honesty. And I think it really. It. It actually forced me to become more of an adult, more of a responsible man and just be fully honest with you, because that's all you've ever wanted. You've just wanted me to be honest from the very beginning. And there was this thread of, like, me not being honest with me and not loving myself enough to say, like, no, you. You actually need time to heal, and this doesn't feel right for me. And here we are anyways, like, we're here. So, like, the honoring of the past is so good, because, God, it just creates some spaciousness. It creates this. Like, I don't have to lie to you about anything. Like, we were at the fire the other night, and you're like, well, just don't tell me anything that you think will make me upset. And I'm like, fuck, no. I'm gonna tell you everything that. That may or may not make you upset, because that's choosing me. I'm choosing myself. And then. Then you can rest in that. You can actually be like, okay, Josh. Josh trusts himself. He loves himself enough to be honest with me about Everything, which is. It's literally, I think on some core cellular level, your body was, like, crying out for that, which was adding to the resistance, like, the. The separation with us. So, yeah, I think in the past, I was like, it's all you, but it's not. It never is.

Never. Yeah, I would. For me, it really felt like in order for us to be good, that I needed to change all these ways about myself and that I was the source of all your pain, and that. But no matter how much suffering and pain you were in, you weren't going to leave. And if you were going to leave, I was the one that had to do it, which was, oh, just so heartbreaking, you know? And I think all along, I'm just like, if he's not happy, why can't he just be honest with that and be. And decide to, you know, separate? Like, why do I have to be the one to do that? And I think, yeah, you talk about this all. All along, I needed this truth, which is true. Like, ever since you've come back home and you've shared that part of, like, just being honest about everything, about the beginning of our relationship, what you really felt and you didn't honor, like, and you feeling okay if we stay together or not was such a hu. Something shifted in me.

Yeah.

Like, you freed up space for me to be. Like, now I can fully choose you. Because a lot of times you feel like I have one foot in, one foot out, and I'm like, God, I didn't want to admit that to you, but I did, and I didn't know what that was. And I. Now I can see that I didn't know if you were gonna love me bey our relationship. And that was something I was, like, graveling with. I couldn't really get to the root of. But when you came back and said, I will be okay without you and I will still love you, that, like. Yeah, that deeply, deeply, like, shifted something for me because now I know that you're choosing me from a place of love and that you really want us, and. And now I can choose you. Like, this is the man I've always. I've been waiting for and that I've always wanted. And something feels really different about that. It feels different when you can truly choose someone and you're not playing from. You're not choosing someone out of fear of losing them or wanting to keep them from all these places. It just created. Yeah. It just created that whole. Yeah, avoid it and anxious attachment, which I hated. I hated so much.

The Anxious avoidant dance sucks. Yeah, it sucks for everyone. Yeah. Yeah. So I wrote you this 15 page letter that came, you know, through guidance of Margot. Like, a lot of things have come through you when I'm with you and when I'm not with you. Like, just little things you say, like, all of a sudden click in when I haven't. Like after our session, actually. And yeah, so in the letter, I really searched my soul. And I had heard, like, shout out to Josh McMurtry, our friend. Like, he had told me once, three, four years ago in Encinitas. He was like, yeah, you know, if. Aaron, if my wife decided that her soul wanted to be with someone else, I would have to choose to love her and respect her and honor her and the fact that. That she wouldn't be with me anymore. And at the time, I was like, what the fuck? What are you talking. How do you do that? How do you love someone even when they're not with you? Like, that feeling of us not being together actually felt like death. It felt like somebody stabbing me with a sword. Like true physical death almost. Now I know it was nervous system tied to egoic death, but. But yeah. And then I heard my brother say it. My brother James told me this about his wife, too, once. And same thing. It was maybe a year and a half ago, two years ago. And I was like, how is that? I had no idea. I didn't have, like, the faculty of how to do that. Like, how do I love you regardless of if you're with me or not? And so, yeah, I'm like, kind of shaking right now because my nervous system is still learning this. Like, it's still learning how to be in that truth. Like, that's from my heart. Like, I'm going to love you no matter what. Like, if you're. If you're with me or not. Like, you're the mother of my children. I knew from the time we talked about it that it was true. And so, yeah, Margo, I'd love for you to speak to that. This. This true, like, death of fear of abandonment, fear of. Of someone not loving me. Fear of how this plays out in relationships. You know, you don't just work with us. You work with a lot of people. I'm sure you feel this. Yeah, a lot. So I think it's like, whoo. I mean, it's a lot of energy for me to share right now, but. But it's real. Because how many couples are literally killing each other? They're just killing each other because they just don't they just don't have the awareness of this. This anger and projections that they learn from their parents or grandparents or lineage or whatever. It just. It plays out in relationship. And people that really love each other end up splitting up because they don't have the courage to go into the darkest, blackest pit and be like, well, why do I feel that for me, why do I feel that in the first place? Like, what. How did that even get created? And of course, it came from my father, you know, speaking really terrible things about my mom and my mom speaking terrible things about my father, and just seeing how that was an unconscious example that I was living out, and I was literally, like, shoving that onto you. And of course, that's not fucking fair at all. So what do you. What do you make of that? Like, what is that with people, with men and women or just any. Any couples? Like, how. How does that play out? And what's the true. The truth of that?

Well, what is. You know, we all, like, what is love? I mean, all the love songs in the world, and love is not grasping. Love is not I love you if I love you. And we put that on our children and our parents put it on us. I love you if you get good grades. I love you if, you know, and that's not love. And we're. You know, I'd say one thing I love about getting older, I see proof of evolution. We didn't have language for this 20 years ago. We didn't have language of trauma 10 years ago. I've worked closely with Gabor Mate and compassionate inquiry. So compassionate inquiry. And that's how I've been working with you. And I say, it's actually helped me how I relate to life. You feel this warmth, you feel this connection. You feel this attachment. So you see behaviors and you connect with them or not.

But.

But then you inquire, like, all of this work is, well, what do you want of this? Like, when I saw you both loving each other so much, and yet this confusion of what that needs to look like. Cause we're hereditary, generational trauma gets passed on. And I also see all of our ancestors looking at this moment going, we didn't know how to make it good. Can you. And we're like, yes, we are actually changing this understanding of love. That's why it's such an honor to be with both of you. And I saw this great potential, the love you had and the willingness to really search within and this strong woman that said, oh, excuse me. And you calling it feminism or whatever, it's like, and now there's some softening in you. And you're not calling it feminism. You're not calling it. You know, you're just like, oh, you just wanted me to be present and be honest. Like, I remember that look. Like, what? That's all. You know, it was just so. There's so many beautiful little moments of working with this clay. And when I sat with you not too long ago, and you're just like, I just need time to rest. And your sinuses and your heart felt so hard. And I went, josh, this could kill you. This could make you really sick. You do need rest. And that was like, maybe you go stay in your studio and just, you know, it's not like time out. It was just time away of this man needs his rest. And then mama bear here saying, I have two babies. I can't go just rest. And it's like, well, just go with the flow with your babies. You know, there's something I trust that you can. Can do this. And you both found it. And it wasn't like, you know, break up the fight at all. It was like, find your essence. And then within that, because you know how to do self work. You. There was so much information. But I. You. You led. I just inquired, you know, and that's the work. And so everything I'm doing with you now, you get to put it out in the world. I'm just going to go float in the ocean in Maui. Thank you very much. Yeah, that's how I take care of myself.

Oh, yeah, it's. It's beautiful. I. This table has had, like, so many amazing conversations. Like, people have cried at this table. And I thought it was really special and super fucking unplanned that we would sit here and do ceremony last night. Like, we ripped out everything, and, like, we sat on the floor and, you know, I. I've had, like, a journey with plant medicine. I know you have, too. And. And it's not always, like, a good thing, you know, the. The space and the setting. And I've shared on the podcast, like, yeah, I'm neither for nor against plant medicine, but I know it has a time. And, like, last night was, like, the special time, the most sacred time to do it. And I thought about, like, all these people in Austin. Like, I don't really trust anyone here because everybody's trying to be a coach. And I knew that Carrie wasn't going to trust them either. Like, there's just a lot of phonies in Austin. And so I. I was having A conversation with my friend Brad. We were sitting right here at this table and while he was sharing something about his life, I was like, I wonder if Margo would guide us. I wonder if Margo would guide us in ceremony. And there was like a true unfolding and surrender about that because I, I thought you wanted to, but I wasn't really sure. I was like, okay, I'm literally just gonna ask her, you know, and if she says no, then fine, we'll find someone else. And when I asked you, you were like an immediate yes, I'll come. And how did that play out for you? Like, it was so beautiful the way it happened. It was so we didn't have childcare picked or anything. We had nothing covered.

I live by the yes. I mean, how do we trust our heart? Like I said, the biggest war is between the mind and the heart. The heart goes, yes, and then mind goes, no, you can't, you're not good enough. I don't do that. I don't worry. I don't second guess this place. And it's not like. But I still okay mine. I need to logistics, to budget, to schedule to time. I saw my calendars was clear for five days. And I've been really curious working with couples. What if I go and live with them for a few days? That would be so amazing. And I've done a lot of plant medicine since my hippie days and here and there, and mostly in traditional ceremonies, really respect that, that it needs to be held. The whole idea. In the 60s, we didn't know about setting intentions, but how that really deepens. So this heart, all these past stuff that we bring can be cleared but with intention and withholding really sacred space. And so that you had used it. We had all been there, but it was such a conversation. It wasn't you just going inward and. And all this watery psychedelic word. It wasn't that at all. A little bit inward. But mostly we were conversing and we were working on, well, here was an intention. What do you think about that? It just came so organically, like kind of what else? What else? And then your conversation was just, yeah, and the medicine added that heart opening like it's safe, creating safety. That's what any conversation that goes off. It wasn't safe. So how do we create safety in our day to day life when we're not doing ceremony? Every moment of life should be a ceremony, devotional. Every word I come out is so special to come out to anyone, especially our children. So I've been working with you guys too, about the child's crying. The child's making a lot of noise, and not, what's the matter, but, oh, I'm here for you. That's good. You had a good cry. And that's society. It's new language. It's like you're just. You're bringing something. Some tension. But the minute we go, what's the matter? And then, you know, 10 years from now, I love telling parents when young children, when they're teenagers, and you go, what's the matter? It's like, oh, you're bringing that information. That's inquiry. Tell me more about that. How is that for you? So I think that's a sentence we kept coming to, is, how's that for you? Yeah.

I didn't know that you work closely with Mate and his work. That's really amazing. I love the compassionate inquiry.

Yes. Good man.

Yeah. Like, in order for me to really inquire with you, Carrie, like, I have to let go of everything that is triggering me and everything that I think is wrong and everything that I'm blaming you and shaming you or judging you about and just be like, okay, like, what can I really learn from this? Like, what can I actually learn from you? Like, what. What is hurting in you? And how can I. How can I really hear you without cutting you off or. Or closing the conversation or shortening, however long it might take you to share that with me? I think. I think for men, that's really fucking hard, especially men that might have an anxious tendency, that have grown up with, like, a mom who's bipolar and a dad who's cognitively not there. Like, one maybe wanting to be there, but he was just dissonant. Yeah. And I think I get this sense, like, why this conversation is so important and so meaningful is because I know you and I are living this out, and I'm 100% positive that there are, like, hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of couples that are in this, like, shame, blame game. And there's this truthful unpacking of, like, okay, what did you come in with? Like, we're at this table. Like, what do you. What have you brought to the table? What have I brought to the table? And can we just be honest about that? Can we actually just love each other with all the stuff we brought without me wanting you to be a different woman, without me wanting you to be anything other than you are? And that's the most deep work for me as a man. What do you. What's your sense on that?

I think the biggest work for me in this relationship is. So I feel like most of our relationship, especially in the last couple years since Nova was born, I feel like it's been like battle of the sexes, and you standing strong in your manhood and what you think is right as a man, and me standing strong in my womanness and defending what I think is right for a woman. So my biggest work here is, like, how to truly be in a relationship with a powerful man as a powerful woman, and also to acknowledge, like, the deepest wounds and. And also just to feel safe with a man. I don't think I. I don't think I feel safe around hardly any men. You know, maybe from my childhood wounding, you know, I had a. A brother that wasn't so kind and mom with an abusive man. So I have a big imprint that men are not safe or the opposite sex is not safe. So, yeah, learning to trust you, trust that you have my best interest. That was a big question mark for me until this past week. Yeah, trust that you have my best interest, even if it has nothing to do with you. So I really been learning how to just let my guard down and know that you are safe and. And fill you in that way. So, yeah, it's messy relationships. Super messy.

And.

I have to acknowledge that part of me that's afraid to be truly intimate, like, just in conversation, just with my truth and vulnerability and trusting that you can hold me there. So how can we nurture each other's wounds and still find a pathway to love, to. To being together? I don't know if that answered your question.

My mom told me something like, I think we were in Tennessee. I think it was last year, maybe the year before. And she was like, send me this passage from the Bible. And it was like, love does not keep score. And that's, like, so true, because I think I was just really keeping score, you know, and on some level, maybe you were, too. Like, all the hurtful things that have been said and, yeah, love does not keep score. So the Bible was right. The Bible's not always right, but I was keeping score because I thought, okay, well, if it doesn't work out, then I have all this evidence stacked as to why she hurt me and why everything transpired the way that it did. And I was really building a case as to if it didn't work out, then it was her fault. And so what was missing was me actually not still learning how not loving Josh, not choosing Josh, not actually fucking choosing Josh, like, not even knowing what that is to even choose Myself. We've heard about this in life and in the work that we've done. How do you actually choose yourself? What's the truth about choosing oneself? What even is that? And for me, it's actually honoring my true boundaries and still loving you enough if those boundaries don't gel with you, like, in the beginning, and now I'm like, okay, well, now I'm going to be completely honest with her about everything, because that's the greatest gift I can give to you, to be fully honest, which I love. So I'm like, you know, I'm blasted apart from this Margot, because we. Yeah, we've done so much work. I said it was a year. You said it was six months that we've been working with her. And it's felt like. It's felt like this is the work that I always wanted to do, but I thought it had to be from, like, some type of other healer or other person like you. You are so not the traditional healer like you are. You've blasted out the. The boundaries and borders of what I thought a healer really is. And. And it's because you have this. There's this vitality in you. There's this trust in you. There's this playfulness in you. Like you're. You're 74 years old and you're like this youthful spirit. I think maybe that was what, you know, you speak to it. But, like, I felt a trust in you because I always think to myself, whenever I get advice from anyone, I'm like, would I want what they have? Like, would I want some of what they have, what I want, some of their energy, what I want, their life? And maybe with all the therapists we had in the past, probably not. I probably didn't want what they had.

I always just received what you gave me. And I asked you questions. I never said, why are you putting all the fault on her? I never said, have you looked at yourself? I never. You know, and I didn't really think it either. I just, like, this guy's intense. He's showing how much he's love. He's showing me confusion until it was only a few weeks ago. Finally, you could very intimately share me, the hard heart you had. And I just said, this man needs rest. You know, I didn't. And we kind of said, can you go into the. No, I can't. The heart is so hard, I can't even go in. Well, just sit on the edge of it. Just be with that hard solidness. And you had a really good sleep that night. Just getting that close, that close, you know, and it's never like, oh, you know, bang on it, go in it, you know, it was just, you gave me what you were willing to give me. And that's the gentle healing. That's the compassionate inquiry, if I can say of just where do you want to go? You lead. Because if I lead, it's not about me at all. It's just. It's being a patient elder, I guess. You know, let's sit on the porch and chuck peas, you know, and talk about the weather. But it. Talk about the inner weather. That's the difference.

Yeah.

And setting intentions, too, is part of it. And then ceremony, and then it's. The big concern from both of you was, what's the integration? It's like changing your diet or going on a fast. It's afterwards. Do you just start eating your hot dogs again? No, it's after the fast, after the switch, after the retreat, the spiritual retreat or whatever you do. It's the after that is almost more important than the actual doing it. And so you were both really concerned, how do we maintain it? And that's part of our ongoing conversation. And you were asking. So you come on intense. And Carrie goes like this, which she protects so beautifully. And part of what I really learned is this is not bad. This is not wrong. But how does the other person honor. Oh, there you go again. Rather than, oh, there you go, you're shutting down. Rather than, wow, you're protecting yourself. And then what you said is, all I need to know is when you'll come back out, you know, and just, I want to hear you, but not right now. I'm protecting myself. Rather than it being a life negative, that all these protections that have maybe been there since infant time or beyond are really healthy. It kept us. I mean, look at this beautiful woman that was so, so protected, and yet it contained her beauty. It protected her. So now that this opening, it's like, thank you for this. And when she needs to do it again, it's like, oh, yeah, you know, I will hold that space. So you were saying, what I need is for you to know is I don't need to be fixed. This doesn't need to be fixed. And then what you said back was, oh, you just needed to know, how long are you going to be there? I've been abandoned so much. I need to know this isn't forever because I get really lonely out here without you. So it was just such beautiful. You finding each other's language. How do we carry it on, because it come up again. She's going to go like this, and you're going to be like this. Basic male, female gestures. But how do you go, oh? And she go, okay, I like your truth, but that's enough for right now before I. Before I go like that, you know, so it's just. Now it's just a flow rather than, oh, yeah, it's so beautiful working with both of you. I was like, yes, let's continue, because I can feel the love, and I'm so honored to be. Be with us.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. That's what was so confusing to me with us is like, oh, I. I know there's like a big love between us. Like, I can feel our soul resonance so deeply. And then here we are on this earthly plane, ego, personality, just putting us at war all the time. And, yeah, a lot of time when I would shut down, it's like, I. You know, in retrospect, from our ceremony yesterday and you kind of guiding us, and it just made me really see into this beautiful part of myself that, yeah, I was protecting myself. I also needed to know that you weren't gonna ridicule me or I could trust that you wouldn't try to kill me or not really kill me, but, yeah, you know, a survival thing. And I didn't feel that with you before. I felt like I had to continue to protect myself because if I open up to you, I don't know what's going to happen. That was way too scary for me. And, yeah, really exploring that in our ceremony yesterday. Like, I. I don't feel like that's going to be a big issue as much. I mean, I'm not saying that I won't ever shut down, but I think, like, and feel that I can trust you in those moments that you're not going to really hurt me, you know?

Yeah. It's like I shared my nervous system. Still getting used to just being open.

Right.

And. And learning how to be in this 2.0 with you. So I. I cherish and honor the fact that your nervous system is still getting used to that, too. Yeah, that's fine.

It's.

It's welcome. It's all right.

Yeah, this is all new.

It's brand new.

And it feels so different than any time, any healing sessions before. So, yeah, I kind of was, like, thinking, like, oh, maybe we're doing, like, a interview too, or a conversation too soon because we haven't really, really truly integrated yet. But.

No, this is the best time.

Yeah. But I. I just feel the shift on a deep, somatic level. Yeah.

Yeah. There was a part. A deep, cellular, energetic part of you that just had to know, like, you had to know that no matter what, that I was gonna love you no matter what. And, oh, yeah, that's true for me now. And I don't. I know that wasn't ever true for me before.

I had to know that you were gonna love me even if it wasn't in service to you. I. And have to know. I have to know that that just frees up so much space for me to, like, choose you before. It's like, yeah, it's really. It's. It's deep in the aspect of, like, I could feel that part of me that was like, oh, I couldn't leave Josh. I wouldn't want to hurt him that bad. Know how much that would just hurt him. And, yeah. Just questioning, like, do I want to be in relationship? Like, oh, but we have children. And then also going back to this vision and deep soul resonance I have with you is really what kept me there. But. And I. I know there was possibility with us to clear this and having this space away for that week. I was really angry at first. Like, how can he just leave?

And.

But it was so necessary. So necessary. Yeah. And it was very necessary for me to, like, clear the fog of, oh, I do really want to be with him. And now I'm going to do anything I need to do to get to that higher union that we.

Yeah.

You thought I was going to come back home and say, I'm done, and you were going to be like, nope, oh, yeah, I'm not letting you do that.

I said that to John. I said that to him last night.

Yeah.

I said I thought he was going to come home and say, I'm done. I can't do it anymore. And I actually was gonna be like, nope, sorry, you're gonna figure it out with me. And I'm ready to just uncover what you think I need to. What I think I need to in order to be in better union and vice versa. So, yeah, we owe it to ourselves. We owe it to our children. We owe it to our ancestors. And it's easier to walk away, I think. So I had to really look at those parts of myself that. Where is Josh Wright? In some ways, like, yeah, I know that my behavior is triggering his deepest wounds, and his behavior triggers my deepest wounds. And if we could just let go of the battle of the sexes, I think. I think we would. Would do great. And I think since you've Come back. You haven't said anything about how a role of a woman or what do you think a man should be.

Yeah.

So it doesn't have to be like a. A fight between men and women.

Yeah. What I trace that back to was I, you know, my dad, he really allowed. He made really poor choices in women and women that would walk all over him. And I used to resent that so much about him. I'd be like, why do you. Why do you let these women just blatantly disrespect you? And I. I didn't even realize this until now. I didn't even say this in our ceremony. I haven't said this to you at all. But, like, I was like, I'll never be like that. I will never be weak like my father. And I think that definitely played out in the. In the previous version of our relationship of, like, I'm never going to let a woman walk on me. I'm never going to let a woman disrespect me. Like, I saw them. He. He allowed them to disrespect him. And also, looking back on my previous relationships, I totally let women walk all over me. And I think I had some of that resentment that was wanting to be cleared as well. Like, it's. I even feel like it coming out now, like, it's like off gassing, you know, just still letting go of that and just knowing that, like, you're not them. You're. You're not my dad, you're not my mom. But on some visceral level, like, that shit lives in us, you know, like, in ourselves. It's. And we unconsciously push it onto the person that we love. And it's just so sad that we do that. And it's so fucking liberating to have that awareness. Not that the road ahead has to be perfect. I'm sure that, like, off gassing will continue in some way. But, yeah, the commitment I made to you and that I'm. I'm solid in is that I'm committed to this version of us. I'm committed to this version of us. And if the old version comes up, I don't need a guarantee that I'll be able to handle it or not, because I know I'll be able to handle it. And so my. My commitment and my love to you now comes from that place. I don't need a fucking guarantee. I think in life, I've always. Even in my business, and just in general, all relationships, I've needed some kind of, like, tacit guarantee that I'll be okay. But in a fucking paradox, like, I actually took away the intimacy of friendships, business, you. Because I needed some kind of guarantee that I wouldn't be hurt or I wouldn't be loved or I wouldn't be abandoned. And to that I say, fuck, no, I'm not interested in that. I'm not interested in playing that game anymore. And that feels freeing. That to me is liberation. Like taking off the fucking cuffs from myself, thinking that you were the one that was cuffing me. But, like, I. I actually showed up and I'm like, what the. Where are these cuffs on me? And I have a key and I can just unlock my own cuffs. So. So that's the place that I. That I get to love you from now, is that place that I don't need a guarantee. And it would crush me if we broke up. Like, I would. It would be really sad. It would devast. Be devastating, but I would still love you and I would. I would still eventually be okay. And. And. And I know that you need that. And I feel like every woman needs that. And I. Like I said with Josh and my brother, like, I truly didn't know how to wear that. Like, I didn't know how to embody that before, and now I. I know how to embody that for you. And that's fucking power. Like, I've always, like, signing my email sometimes, like, peace and power. It's like, well, I can't actually have power unless it's from peace. I can't do that. You can't. You can't feel my power unless you can feel my peace. Especially with what you've been through. Like, it's just. It's not going to be possible for you. So in this crazy way, in the same way, in the beginning of our relationship and definitely now, like, you, you were always. You were always calling me forward. You were always calling me forward. And there's real truth in that. Yeah. And I just love you for that. So thank you.

We said a few times to be here now, what keeps us from being here now with what is. Because what is, is love. And it's those parts of us that, you know, the dad parts, the mom parts, the experience parts, and it just go, well, that's a part. Thank you for doing your job. But, you know, when you come into self and you're really present, you go, oh, and it's not a bad part. It's the shaming and blaming of those parts. Like my dad and my mom and my brother, you know, but when you don't blame it anymore. Go, well, thank you. You had a role. But just step aside. You can still walk with me. But I'm. I'm here. And that's that maturity you're feeling. I'm here. And, you know, you can come and say, hey, you know, remember, that's like, yeah, I do. Thank you. You know, and then they calm down. But how this is going to change your parenting, you know, of. Just to find out that all voices are welcome, all moods are welcome. You know, getting close. We've talked a lot about that. Getting close with your child. If he's having a tantrum rather than, what's wrong? What's wrong? You know, because that's how we treat ourselves. What's wrong? Why are you doing that? Like, you know, shame and blame and internally. But when that's calmed down and you see your child being upset, you go, oh, yeah, you're having a good cry. I'm here for you. And not trying to fix it or make it better, you just. You just be with it. Like, be with. When you're intense and Carrie shuts down, you just be with it. And when he gets, whoa, whoa, it's like, whoa, I see that power. But, you know, okay, where are you going? I'm here for you. I'm here for you. I'm here. It'll help you be with your children. So, like I keep saying, when they're teenagers, they trust you, that all feelings are welcome and you won't judge them and you won't try to fix them. You know, it's just. It's. That's the magic. And so this became. Becomes a generational shift of how to be in the world that. I'm so excited for you.

It's so different than I thought it would be. I've, like, intellectualized, and I've probably told you like, a thousand times, like, you know, we gotta heal for our family and we gotta heal for our lineage. And, like, I didn't actually know how to do that, but. But now I know how to do that. And I'm not saying that it's easy and our path is unique, although I get the sense that it's also similar to other couples. I feel that, too. It's pretty. It's pretty fucking similar to other couples. It just played out with us for a long time, to the point where I actually did feel like I was going to die at times. I was like, wow, I'm getting sick so much. I've had to reschedule so many podcasts, like, I'm just like, something's got to give, you know, something's got to give. And, yeah, I just. It's what I wrote to you in the beginning of that letter. Like, I don't think God is a bearded dude in the sky, but I know that we need God, and I know that God is in our relationship. A divine. A divine energy, a divine presence is in our relationship. People have, like, a wounding about that word God. And I. I feel like God, for me, is the thing that allows you and I to see that sunset. The thing that when we hold Nova or when we hold Naya, as they're asking for us to mature, for me to mature, for you to mature, they're. They're. They're like asking from this, like, such innocent place, like, you know, please, Mommy, please Daddy, like, what's the truth? Mommy and daddy, show us how to love. Show us how to. Show us how to live. Show us how to love each other. And. And that was a big piece of what I wrote to you. And what I feel now is like, that's actually how you heal generations, is by having. And growing and being the guardian and shepherd of children. That fuck. They've taught me already. I can't even imagine what else they'll teach us, but they've already taught me so much about myself and about what actual generational healing is. And also I want to respect my father and my mother and my grandparents. Like, I'm not. I'm not here to. To demonize my dad or to demonize my mom or to demonize your dad or mom or anyone. It's like, damn, maybe they just didn't know. Or maybe they knew, but they didn't know how to heal it or how they didn't have the tools that we.

Had where it couldn't just not be.

Their path or it's not their Dharma.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which is a whole nother mystery school.

They're doing the best they could, really. Believing about every soul on the planet. They're doing best with what information they got. And just because we got different information doesn't mean we're better. It's just, you know, am I really even somebody that's down and out? And I could judge on any level. Am I meeting them where they are and giving. Giving them some hope? Maybe they never were seen by anyone, you know, some lonely old lady walking down with her walker on the. You know, good morning. How are you? It's like, maybe no one has talked to her for a week. You know, we just don't know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Whenever I'm in the grocery store, which is rare because we do the orders now, but I'll, like, make a point to connect with the person. And I did it this morning, actually. When I got the. The bread and the yeast, I was like, hi. It seems pretty light. I was trying to connect with her, and it was like I saw her light up. Like, nobody does that. Hi, how are you? Did. It's like, that's. That's the normal thing. And I'm like, how can I. How can I choose from my heart to do that all the time? You know, maybe that's pie in the sky, but it. I'm a dreamer, and so how can I do that all the time? How can I connect with people all the time? And, like, even your presence, Margo, just. How can I. How can I bring my playfulness and my youthful spirit to. To healing work as well? Because healing work is hard. But you have, like. I even. I laughed in the ceremony because I was like, how do you have this youthful spirit stay connected to your kid? How do you stay connected to your little girl? And what did she say?

Well, I've always had braids, and I.

Just, like, bust out laughing, like, yeah, like that. I think. Why people get old. When I feel you, I don't feel that you're old. I feel that you've. You've had this connection to your little girl the whole time.

I've always believed in fairy tales. I live in that world. And because fairy tales and myths, they carry such a deep truth that to me is that's. That's the story of our soul and, you know, being given a little gift along the way. And you, you know, two hours before you thought, I wish I had that. Like, I was looking for scissors to cut off a little tag I was gifting your children. And as I was leaving the airport, someone had dropped a little letterman tool, little tiny precious one had scissors on it. I'm just like, oh, whoa. This is amazing. Yeah. How do you be awake to those little gifts that the old lady gave you when you're on the path to the high mountain and receive them and be awake to them? And that's my. I don't, like, have wish lists or prayers or, dear God, help me. It's more, I want to get there and then being really awake to, can I be awake in the moment? Rather than, oh, I could have had a conversation with that person, like, okay, I saw that two hours ago. How can I be awake in the moment? How can. That's Working with you guys, really, I feel like we've been awake in every moment in our relationship, and that's what. Yes, let's work more. Let's do this. And passing it on to you. So then just exactly what you said. You desire to be awake in every moment and really see. Feel the love in your heart and see a moment to share it. Because people need hope so much these days. And even with a real connection, not a text, not, you know, a really human eye to eye, heart to heart, that is so needed in the world. So thank you for taking that on.

Yeah. People need hope. People need inspiration. I think that's why people are drawn to podcasts, because they're thinking like, oh, can I feel some hope today? Or. And I have some inspiration today. And I can see how there's so many podcasts out there, probably most of them, honestly, like 90 of them, they're just like, entertainment, which is cool. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but. Yeah, I just feel like we need. We need a lot more conversations like this because this is what people are, like, thirsty for. They. They want this. And. And, you know, they have Joe Rogan and they have these other shows that, like, entertain their mind, but really, in a way, I feel like it pulls them away from the work that their heart's wanting them to. To lean into.

Well, we're so educated to the mind. The mind knows it. It's been part of the patriarchy of. The woman has all these emotions and they're messy. So let's just analyze and chart it and get the mind going.

The feminine energy is right there on the table. The upside down triangle. Water. I put that in my body business logo because I knew on some level that I needed to understand the water, right?

The.

All of this of the feminine. I'm like, whoa.

So when you. I mean, this is part of Gabor's gift of, like, okay, you have these perceptions of the world, and then you kind of say, hold on, let's. Let's drop that perception into your body. Where is it? Is it in your heart? Is in your belly? And just have a person really go into their body, which, you know, they've ignored because we're told to ignore it. It's all heads. That's where you get graded. Drop into your body and go, oh, it's really tight in my heart. Whenever I think about that scenario that keeps happening to me or that relationship, it's like, okay, go into your heart. Feel it. What does it feel like? Describe it. What does that heart need. How old is that? If it wants to go back? Because we did that with you, and you said, oh, it's all Carrie. My heart is heavy because of Carrie. And it's just like, I just let that be okay, all right. That's as close as you want to get. And just, you know, just, okay, I hear you. I hear you. And then you touch in. It's kind of like you touch the wound and you don't make a big, like, why did you do that? You know what? That's touching the wound, and that's making that wound, that trauma even deeper rather than just like, okay, touch it. Okay, let's go over here and go over there and, you know, make a joke or, you know, it's just like. But it's there. We acknowledge there's a little. There's a little owie there that's been there a long time. And it could create an ailment, a deep. A deep wound, a deep illness in our body that. Let's address it. And actually, there's healing by going into. Because the body knows, the mind makes stories about it.

I remember when you told me, you're like, you need to sit with that black tar in your heart. I was like, the fuck is she talking about? And, yeah, I. I got to sit with that.

And I.

Which was the beauty.

Yeah. Thank you for that feedback. Because really, I try not to say you need to do this well, but I really.

It was good. It was timely.

It was. It was very delicate.

It was needed. And it didn't feel. I didn't feel like you were barking at me. It just. It felt like, I think, what. What kind motherly energy I've always wanted to feel, you know, and I love my mom, but I. I felt that. Yeah, I felt that true feminine wisdom from you of, like, go sit with that.

I think I said, yeah, I said, if you don't, that's very hard. That's very heavy to carry. If. If you don't look at that, it could get worse. I'm just like, that could really make you sick. You think you're sick now? Because it was more an intuitive. Like, that's why I said, go rest. Go take time. Yeah.

What do you think really shifted you while you were away? Like, you had all these profound awarenesses where you needed to choose you and love yourself and trust yourself and honor your truth. Like, what was that for you? Like, what brought you to that?

It was conversations with Mark, JP And Brad and also with Margo, and also my desire for Us. I think it was, like, amalgamation of all that put together. And I also think there was some mysterious timing around it. Like, who knows? We could have. Well, actually. Actually, that's part of it. There's no way we could have gone on.

Right.

There's no fucking way that that previous 1.0 could live any. It didn't have any more breath for me. So I actually was done. I was complete with the relationship. You were complete with the relationship, too. And so I think it's a mixture of all those things that just kind of blasted me apart.

Yeah.

That's the best way I can explain it.

Yeah. I don't think I've told you this, but a lot of, like, I know my higher, higher self and my soul wanted to be with you, and I could see what that was like. And I know we were just arguing and in disagreement so much about almost.

Everything, and with two kids and lack of sleep and just.

Yeah, like, you know, yeah, we're both changing so much, as a man, as a woman, and individually. But there were a lot of times where I just felt like I was, like, the source of your pain, that I'm just like, gosh, I. I couldn't do it, but I was like, I think if I just ended the relationship, he would thank me one day. But I also. I just had this hope between us that one day we would just get it. And, yeah, I really have to just thank Margo for just holding us in that deep fire and container and helping us find our way out of the. The forest that was burning.

It takes a village. It takes a village.

It really does. And I think for me, a lot of times, I just want to go inward, and I'm so private when it comes to relational.

This is a edge for you?

Yeah.

This podcast.

Oh, yeah. I'm like, I don't know if I want all this, but if it. I hope that it inspires. I do notice that most of my friends are going through similar stuff. So, yeah, I hope that this finds somebody and really gives them hope that, you know, if their relationship seems, you know, on the rocks or even complete, that it does take two. Like, it. It does. And it can't just be one person. So, yeah, I. There is hope that you guys can find your way through, but, yeah, I'm just. I'm very thankful that we're sitting here today and talking about it. It is an edge.

You told me before we recorded, you were like, I didn't think we'd ever record a podcast together.

I didn't.

Why?

Well, I thought we were just on different kind of wavelengths with what we would. Well, really, I just thought me and you were in agreement about everything, so it would probably be like, a polarizing conversation. So I'm like, I'm not gonna go on there, but I'm. I'm so looking forward to doing life with you and truly navigating those hard times together as a team. Because that we. I wasn't feeling that before. Yeah, I'm sure you weren't either. Like, we weren't doing anything as a team. We're just so in conflict and. And are different to. So I'm really looking forward to navigating our lives together as a union.

Yeah.

And it's exciting. I'm like, oh, this is what I've been wanting all along, and. Yeah. It just feels so good to feel that hope kind of coming to fruition.

Yeah. Yeah. The ceremony was powerful.

So how would you describe your heart from the dark weight that felt so painful to now. What just drop into your heart? And how would you describe it now?

The ceremony was powerful, but also the timing of you and I was powerful, too. The ceremony just put a magnifying glass on what I needed to see. We needed to see the. The. My heart feels like almost like, you know those rock hounds where they have the chipper? Like. Like the chipping away of some of that crust. And it's funny because I. I've told people, like, they asked me, like, what's it like to be a father? And I've said, oh, you know how, like, to find a diamond, you have to carve out this big piece of a cave to find the diamond? Like, that's what having a. A child or children does. And so that's what this feels like, too. It feels like. Yeah, just a softening. A softening, which is a word that in the past had triggered Carrie, and I get the sense that it won't trigger her now.

Yeah. I don't even feel the charge to it.

Yeah.

In the past, you would want me to soften.

Yeah. So really, like, what she was wanting from me and the beautiful, beautiful ownership of this is like. But when I come to you with a soft heart, it's a lot easier to give me softness back. And I think that that's real. And so the chipping away of that black crust of that tar is what I feel. Yeah. And you know what that feels like? It just feels like a. I was telling Carrie in the truck last night when we were driving the kids around feels like a hot air bubble has Been popped.

What's inside?

Space.

Space.

The flow of life. The. The ease and grace of organic. That word so, so chastised. But, like, true organic living, like, just a natural. A natural, organic life. To live organically is what is. Is what was in there. And it was being covered by. Yeah, this. This really. I think if I'm. If I'm really tuning in, like, it's been there for as long as I can remember, that. That chip. And in a way, it drove me. You know, it drove me to. To want to be of service and to want this and to want a family and to want these big things, to want this big life. But now I'm just like, wow, what even bigger life is possible without that fuel source? You know, like, what. What's possible now to create from that place? Which is, honestly, I think, why. Why people. We've plateaued. Right. As a podcast. And so I feel like this will amplify and accelerate and explode potential that maybe I didn't even know was possible because that stuckness that I. That I feel from a lot of other shows, like, the person leading the show has, like, almost like a barking ness. And maybe like, David Goggins, right. Like, he wrote that book, you can't Hurt Me, which is so funny. It's like, he's obviously very wounded, and he's wrote a book about his anger and everything, but, like, I think there's room for both now. I think there's room for, like, me as a man to know when to. When to strike and when to cut, when to protect, but also when to soften. And let's be honest, the softening is. The majority of the time is the softening.

You know, what I call this is treasure hunting. And there's this big demons and dragons at the cave, and they look really scary, and they just really want attention. That's their behavior that we've put up with. And we fight. You know, that barking and that fighting, it's like he just wanted to play, you know, he just wanted a friend. And then when the dragon's your friend, the dragon image of fairy tales, he's got all these jewels and treasures. So inside is this sparkling, glimmering life force that we've so wanted, but it needed to be so protected.

Yeah.

Because of all the stuff and just making friends with the dragon and it just, you know, like you said, you have a dragon toy with your son. It's just. It's making. Yeah. Play with him. I just wanted. He's lonely, too, and. And not shame and blame him like, how dare you?

You know, I'm connecting a huge dot right now. There's this movie called Finding Joe, and it had, like, gay Hendrix and all these others, some people from the Secret in it. And there was this one scene in that. In that documentary where it was this young boy fighting a dragon. And I get it now. I don't think I ever got it because of what you just said. It's actually, oh, how can I just put the sword down and just give the dragon a hug? Because I'm creating the dragon anyways, which is maybe a cosmic fucking joke. We're creating our own dragons now. I mean, there's evil in the world. There is evil forces in the world collectively that. That we're dancing with and I think righteously battling with, too. But, yeah, that's what's in there. That spaciousness that you asked about is. Yeah, this. This agency and authority to. To not have to be in protection all the time. To not have to always be in, like, hyper. Vigilance has been a thing for me where I'm like, okay, well, if that person fucks with me, then I'm gonna, like, draw a line in the sand and I'll never talk to them again. It's like, is that. Is that actually the best thing to do? No, it's not. It's not the most loving thing to do. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot more there.

Well, one thing is posture, too. How do we. You know, as people get older, they get burdened with life and all the baggage they're carrying. And so most, you know, and. Yeah, yoga and stuff and body awareness and dance, but it's just like. And this. This feels protective, just. And it's more a feminine gesture of protecting this, where actually people can get at you to be aware of dark forces, the light forces. This is protection. Full wings out, Full angel presence. And you. I've. I've been walking down some shady places, and they're like, what's a person like you doing in a place like this? And I was walking like this, and they would. They would protect me as I walk through, you know, the area. It was just like this. And it's not shoulders back so much military. It's heart open and how do we not be wounded? Well, I've been wounded so many times, and sometimes it is this gesture of walking away, but mostly, if you like, I love going to store, and I'm like, I open it and see what comes. And it's usually magic, but if you walk in. Okay, just. I Gotta get bread and I gotta get the. You know, it's just like you're walking like that. But if you walk in with his presence and I mean, I've had a fellow with a baby come up to me, my baby needs to meet you. You know, it's just like you were the ones we have been waiting for, you know, with that kind of. Yeah. So I just invite everyone to do that just before you, you know, even when you come home from work, you know, open it up. Ah, there's my family rest in that, you know. Yeah. And that's what you're really deepening that you can rest in your relationship and your family. And I'm. Again, it's just so beautiful thing to witness.

Yeah. Like, I. It's funny I haven't asked you this yet. I've been wanting to ask you this, you know, with. With what you've been through in your life. The. The men and the. And the. The loss and the hurt. Like your ability to still keep your heart open is fucking amazing. That's really amazing. If you could share about that.

Well, even though, you know, I wasn't so versed in wounding and trauma and none of us were, I could see where their beliefs were because they were very spiritual people. I wouldn't have it otherwise, but it was like, that's not my path. And yes, we both had children with both of them and you know, what that did to the children and all, you know, I didn't. It's just like, I know that's not my path and I didn't have language like, I'm working with you. If I had somebody work with me and them, it would have been a hole. But that wasn't the story. And even my last marriage, it was like, go do what you need to do rather than trying to hide it. Go be that person you need to be. It was kind of loving you in freedom and we still have a relationship, you know, and I. Yeah, sure, I'd love to talk to him, but no, he doesn't want to go there. So I just let him go in freedom and out of due respect for our child. I knew that was so important not to have any animosity because of the child. It's like we are separate. I honor him and I honor me, but there is no animosity that sometimes I had to work at because the children will sense that even when they're adults, and that will burden them. That will. That will bring them to trauma. So it's so important to just work through all of that they're in their freedom, I'm in mine, even no matter what had happened.

Does that sound familiar?

It's really freeing. Yeah. I really love that aspect of relationship, to let someone go with honor and love, especially when you do have children, because on some level, you're going to be with them the rest of your life. You're going to have them in your life. So. And that was a kind of thought for me. It's like, even if me and Josh do go our separate ways, it's like I. I still have a duty to do the deepest work to heal my relationship with myself because that's going to affect my children. It'll affect our relationship even if we are separate. So the commitment was really to doing my own deeper work. And I do find it that you are the best person to do it with because you want to. You're willing. And for so long, I think in our relationship, I just didn't want to, like, budge in that way with you because you're telling me, like, it's you and you need to do this. And some things were very true. Like, I'm like, yeah, I can see that. I can see that. So now I just. I don't know. I just feel like. Because you don't. I was gonna say because you don't need me now, I feel like I can actually trust you. Like, I can trust that I can lean into you and that you're. You're.

Well, he doesn't need you to be a certain way.

Yes. That's it. That's it.

I'm. I'm open. I mean, what is. What is commitment? I am open to supporting you to grow.

Yes.

No matter what. But please communicate. Yes.

Give me something when we're in the.

Give me some hope. Yeah.

Tell me. I'll talk to you tomorrow at 5. And I'm good with that. That's all I need.

Yep. The hardest thing for me.

Sure.

Yep. But I don't. I don't. I don't know. I don't feel like it's going to be such a charge now. I don't. I don't know. There's like a deep sense of renewal. Deep sense of renewal and trust. The trust part is big for me.

Yeah.

So, Yeah.

I also want a presence too. I think sometimes, for whatever reason, I even saw it in that video I sent Margot, the Anxious Avoidant video. I'm like, this is what's going on. Look. And in the video, it talked about, well, the anxious has a role to play as well. Yeah. And I think sometimes one might be seen as better than the other. I actually know now in full honesty, both the anxious and avoidant, none of them are better than the other. They actually play a dynamic role in the way that the really gross dance happens.

Right.

Which I'm not interested in playing. Like, I'm interested in a totally different dance.

Yes, same.

But, yeah, you know, I. I think that's something that really needs to be. Presence as well is like the anxious isn't the good one and the avoidant is not the good one either.

Right. Well, first in our relationship, I definitely felt like you took on the honorable anxious person and you cared more and.

It was a way for me to be in control.

Of course. Of course. Yeah.

And you would shut down.

Yeah. And I felt like everyone just understood Josh's pain because, oh, poor Josh, his heart's hurting and here I am like this, like, closed off, shut off person, which isn't my true nature. You know, this has shown up so deep in relationship with you.

Yeah.

Because. Yeah, it's like that polarizing energy is pushing me into that because I'm actually anxious in all my previous relationships. So it was so funny. But yeah, there just became this, like, narrative that I. I just felt like everyone understood Josh's pain and felt for Josh. And I'm like, well, what about me? Like, I'm actually very soft hearted. And anyways. Yeah.

And.

And I felt like you took that badge with anxious, like, as it was better than avoidant because avoidant didn't give a shit. Didn't care.

Yeah. The unconscious projection was that my dad was extremely avoidant and my mom was kind of just boundaryless. I mean, I love my mom, but she. She didn't have the even understanding of boundaries. So in a way, I think she was also sometimes. Actually, it's perfect. She was sometimes anxious, she was sometimes avoidant, which is truly bipolar. You know, it's. It's like this. It's like my little nervous system, my little boy nervous system, never actually knew. Like, and, you know, if my mom watches this, I just want to share with you. Like, I love you, mom. Like, I. This is not. You did absolutely the best you could 100% with everything that transpired. But the result of that was that I never really knew, like, what home base felt like. And so anytime that your behavior would. Would elicit the same feelings in me that I felt when I was younger, I would go into, like, damage control mode because I could think about moments of, like, having to do the dishes for my mom, her being in the room crying, and me, like, making my own dinner and just like, what the fuck do I do? Like, how do I. How do I feel at home in myself? How do I. How do I feel at home? And then being with my dad and that. My stepmom when I was in high school and just the craziness that happened and. Yeah, just feeling so much deep pain around this. This wound with my father that, you know, through. Through your guidance and insight, I was able to like, just really actually treat it in the same way that I would treat my son. Like, oh, you're. You're being avoidant. Okay.

Yeah.

Okay. You're. You're. You're not wanting to be part of Nova's life or Nova or Naya's life. You're not wanting to meet Carrie Michelle. You're not. You're not wanting these things. Okay? Like, how do I. How do I be okay with that? And I think. I think I'm on the road to that now. Like, actually understanding how to. How to be that, how to embody that. I don't have it mastered. Like, it's not. I'm not going to bullshit, but. But I think there's a starting path for me there to just, like, just let him be. And the last thing I'll say is that, you know, I had another one of the six elders that has been on this podcast with you is like, he sat right there and he said, maybe. Maybe the greatest gift your father could ever give you is the absence of his presence. And there's. There's definitely, like, there's pain there, you know, because, like, who. Who doesn't want their father to be in their life? Who doesn't want their mother to be in their life? But. But there's also. There's truth there. And maybe on some level that. That actually is the truth. Because you asked me in ceremony, like, do you want your father to be in your life? And I sat with that, and I was like, no, I don't. I don't. But it's not a fuck you. It's not a. It's not a hate you. It's like, I. I can't. I can't bring you into my family when you behave in that way. Like, it's not safe for my woman. It's not safe for my children. It's not safe for me. So. So there's. There's emotion there. Like, there's freeing, there's liberation there, but there's also pain. And that gets to be felt in due time. Yeah. And I can see how that. It's so. It's. It's. It's nauseating that the projection of that onto you and, and the. Just the. Actually the. The real. The hardening of my heart most likely was attached to that as well. Because if I can't trust that God would bring me a father that loved me or that God would bring me a mother that was safe, then there is no God. I've even said in times in the past, like, fuck you, God. I've said that anger towards God, and now it's like, okay, let's choose a different game. Let's choose a different way to be okay with this, rather than me having. Because all that is is me just wanting to be in control and looking.

At what strengths those parents brought you, like finding little tidbits because it made you the amazing man you are. Yes, the tensions and the difficulties. But he brought me that, and he brought me that. And then also to keep going into the heart of. I had some difficult relations with parents. And I go, I didn't know then. That's when I am taking care of kids and I tell their parents, I have trouble with this behavior. And I ask the parents, what do you do at home? Because it's me rather than your child's problem. So I look at that as parents. It's like, my parents were a problem. They didn't give me what I need. But it's like, I don't have the strength right now. Maybe I will later, but it's good to give space so I don't keep projecting on these old patterns that cause these things. So just how. I don't know, like even to a parent saying, I'm feeling sad right now with you, but I don't have the tools to really have a deep conversation. I want to, but I really hope we do in the future. So it puts out this. It's all self. It's all about me. It's not about, you weren't there for me. And that kind of turns it around of, I'm going to work on my heart. I'm going to protect my heart, but I'm also going to work and hope that it softens and maybe I'll have the word someday. Right now, my mom is long gone, but I still like, oh, Mom, I wish you could see me now and look at the gifts you gave me. We weren't that close, but I see her community and her, you know, all their crafts and it's like, what gifts did they give you? And just kind of put Those in your little treasure bag.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean he, he definitely gave me the gift of perseverance.

Yeah.

And of commitment because he was very committed and perseverant.

Yeah.

So, yeah. You know, if my dad ever sees this, like, I love you to the best that I can. I love you in the way that I can. And there's, there's a line. Right. There's a line for me and the people I love as well. And you know, I love you to the best that I can. You know, it feels very freeing to say based on the resources that anyone has in any moment.

Just talk about medicine just a little bit. Like because some people don't have access, it don't believe in it. What did you do? You know, it's like, it's more to me because I've done mostly traditional ceremonies. Except for the hippie days, we didn't even know anything and it was just kind of like, oh, there's different ways of being. And this opened my heart and this opened my vision. But to me the most important is setting intentions, feeling a perception, feeling it in your body through therapy or just yourself feeling where is this? In my gut, in my heart. And just really giving it space and thanking that tension that protect you. And it's not, I'm not comfortable with it anymore and, and asking for praying. Just be with guidance of how do I, how do I without the whole world word of spiritual bypassing. It's like, okay, I'm going to meditate now I feel better. But oh, it came back again. It's like really go into the tension and then with the tension, give it attention because that's what it's lacking. And then set intentions of where you'd like to go with that. We spent a whole day setting intentions before this. You know, I look forward to you reading those again. And then in your daily life say, you know, show me where it is. Oh, there it is. That interaction brought it that little behavior and I judged it. And just really looking at your way of being with yourself and then your self criticizing thoughts. And then when you get some aha moments, it's really good to write these down. The before and the after of of just their daily interactions. Like oh, that it's kind of binary. It's open and close, open and close. And we have to do that breathing in and breathing out. It's like, but when the close gets stuck or the open gets stuck, then we're in trouble. Then we're not in good health. So how to just allow this to happen? And then the integration afterwards. Okay. Now I feel like I want to take a breath before I go into the store and be open. Okay, well, I went into that store and I didn't want to be open and just kind of looking at, like just. Just listening. Listening more and feeling more and not just trying to make it a headspace and. And different plant medicines that have been used as long as the history of humanity has been on the planet. They use it shamanically, medicine wise to open different areas with guides, you know, with. And it does very gently, you know, if it's. If it's very. And they're doing a lot of research on. On how much and when and what kind of set and setting and environment. It's so important. There's. I know so many young people, my interest now there's so many young people that still look like, well, we had fun. You know, it's kind of like a party thing.

Yeah.

And then they come back and they have a hard life. They're just suffering. And it's like, how can we use this to really open? And so just, just. Yeah.

That's so beautiful. Carrie and I know couples that have done way more medicine than us, and they're not in any better place.

Yeah.

Medicine is not the ants, the ultimatum, the answer, the golden ticket. It. It. It's a microscope. It allows us to see if we have the courage to see. But it's not like by you and I doing medicine that. That's how some going. Somehow going to save us.

Yeah. And the medicine we did, I feel like, was only. It was truth serum. Like, it only put us closer to our truth.

It was truth medicine.

And I think most medicines are like that if you're willing to look.

Yeah. Truth ain't always easy, but it's necessary. I'm. I'm really curious, Margot. You have some things that we shared. Like, is there something that you think would be of service to other couples watching or listening that. That you could share in learning about Carrie and I, you know, from your notes or from your own memory or just something that you really saw us battling with that. That you could actually bring some. Some relief and a different direction, a different game to another couple.

Yeah. Looking at when you shut down and when you open, when you have hope and, oh, this relationship. Oh, there he goes again. Of just going, you know what I'm feeling triggered. This is the most important sentence. I really want to hear you, but I can't right now because of. Within me, not because of what you just said or what you Did. Those are so critical that you have to, you know. When I learn new language, like, through nonviolent communication, I'm like, okay. It took me a few months to, like, integrate that. Say what you see, tell what your needs are, and ask permission. Like, when I come home, all the clothes are on the floor from my daughter. And can you just pick them up? You know? So I brought it to Marshall Rosenberg when I did a workshop with him. What do I do? And he goes, well, say what you see. There are clothes all over. When I come home, I want to sit down and relax. Would it be possible for you to pick up your clothes? Do you need more hooks? What do you need? So then she just did it. It blew me away. But it took me a long time to, you know, say what you see. Like, what does that do? You know, Place is a mess, you know, and then talk what you need. So, like, I really want to hear you. Like, it's coming out a lot of information, a lot of hurt and pain. But I can't right now because it's triggering me that really point. I want to hear you. It's really missing. I want to hear you, but I can't. You know, you're blasting me too much. It's like, once you start doing this, it's just then the person's offended, and then they got to say something. Then the war goes on and people take out the big guns. And this is like, I want to hear you, but I can't. So really honoring beforehand.

Carrie's got a bazooka.

Oh, yeah. Why is there big guns here?

I have a Gatling gun. I have a Gatling gun.

We need these. We need these for protection rather than. And it's just like, but I need to work. So what are you. And then what I learned from you is saying, well, how long do you need? Like, give me some hope. Like, you're not going to go. Just retreat for two days and look at me. Really mean. It's just like, how can I hold space for you to work on this? And then I hope. And not even the attitude of like, well, you're going to take all day. You know, it's like that it hurts. So really looking at language is divine or sacred or however you put it. Our words are just like these jewels. Even if we're really upset and they come out all backwards. But it's also retake. It's like, even when you yell at your kids, like, you know what? Take two. I don't like how I said that, especially when they're older. What I really meant to say is this. And that teaches the child to go, I'm going to blow it, but wait a minute. And then be able to. And it happens quicker and quicker. What I really mean to say is this. Can you hear me right now? And really always. That's what we worked on a lot yesterday. Permission. Can you. Can you hear. Can I share this right now? Is that okay? Yeah, I'm here. And you know what? Oh, that's. That's enough. I. I'm full. Because I don't want to zone out on you. Because when you're talking to someone and they zone out, you feel it. You're like. And you want to get more intense and more like, you need to hear me right now.

Listen to me.

And the person to be able to say, I can't hear you right now, but I want to. That's the or. And I want you. You know the. Yes. And the law of improv of, yes, I hear you and I'm full right now. It's like, let me digest that. Because it's really so. It's always, how do I stay connected even though I'm closed down? I want to hear you, but I'm really full. So can we talk tomorrow? And then to honor that. But I need to tell you right now. It's like that person to go, oh, what did she. Or he just tell me? So that's really the languaging that I found is so important to your kids or anybody.

It's so good.

I love you guys.

Love you too. Yeah. To speak to that. What happens in me that I shared with you is the previous version of Josh that I'm cool if it comes back around again because I know what to do with it now. Imperfectly stumbling, whatever, is that there was a tyrant that lived in my mind. And it would be like, you can't fucking rest. Why would you need rest right now? Your business isn't where you want it to be. Like, you should be doing something else. Like, just exhausting. And so then I would dishonor my body and I would just continue to push through and push through and push through. And then I would show up at home exhausted, completely exhausted. And there'd be no spaciousness for, like, conscious communication or, you know, I want to hear you, but I. I can't right now. That doesn't exist when I'm. And I'll just speak for men, because that's what the. We do sometimes. We. And women do it too. But I think it's present in men. Like, there's this, like, just get it done. Just even that phrase. Like, I think there's even shows get shit done. It's like, yeah, there's a time and a place for that, but not all the time. Like, not all the time. And so I can see that. That kernel of wisdom as well. Like, actually truthfully honoring where I'm at, even if it's like 10 minutes laying on the ground and just breathing. So, yes, men, we get to do that. You get to take a break. If you need a break, it's okay to take a break. Like, you don't. And actually, I show up more full after I take the break, which is so counterintuitive to the tyrant that's barking.

But before, that felt very feminist, very, you know, emasculated.

Yeah. Almost like a weakness. You take a break, you're weak.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's what I'm saying. With these other influencers and other shows, they're all about, like, just get it fucking done. And it's like, well, yes, and not all the time. That's. That's not always necessary. All the time.

But isn't that spiritual or whatever you call it, where two or more are gathered? It's like, what lives between. What energy lives between us? And if you give. We have energy, we have being and being, but what. What lives between us? What is. You know, you could call it love, you call it the spirit, you call it. But there is something tangible. You know, it's between. You know, you can feel the heat between your hands. And it's a tai chi practice. How big can you feel that heat between your hands? You know, and that's what's living. How do we give that space? And I really believe that's how we create more space and time in our life by giving that space. I mean, martial arts masters knew that that's how they move through space so masterfully. But you gotta work on this. What lives between us. And that's tantra, right? That's like. It's not like I'm gonna. I'm gonna receptive and you're gonna be aggressive. It's just more like, can we just. What is that? There's the mystery, and that's all you were wanting, right? Can you just calm him? And he's like, what?

Yeah. I was like, how do I honor you as a woman?

And I said, just be peaceful.

And I was like, that's it. That's all that I do.

That was the moment. That was the only.

And I actually didn't get it. I was like, what? Then? I was curious. I was like, okay, what does she actually mean by that? Like what? I mean, I understand that was a pivotal moment.

Yeah.

What else needs to be said?

I believe that we have the same deep core wounds, and I think those were triggering each other. Fear of abandonment, fear of it not working out, just. Just recognizing that we're actually like, almost the same person, just in male and female bodies. And. Yeah, you're my perfect mirror, as much as I didn't want to admit that. But I'm. I'm. I'm proud of us. I'm proud of us for working through it, and I know there's still a lot of work to do and integrate. It's fine from this. Yeah. Yeah. But I. I do feel like you're my other half. And I asked you last night, I said, are you my other half? And you said, yes. And it was so real and so true. I'm just act. I'm just happy that I can access that part. I've been wanting so long. So. Yeah. I think it's an ongoing mission together to stay in union and be part of a family. That's been my biggest dream and goal, is to have a thriving family. So it starts with us individually turning the microscope on ourselves and finding our ways back to each other so we can give it to our family.

Thank you, my love. Thank you for being here. I love having you on the podcast. I love it.

Thank you for having me.

And thank you, Margo, for just answering what you felt, answering the call. So beautiful.

Look for the yes. That's my advice. Don't. Don't question it with your mind. You can look for the yes with your whole being, and then your mind can help you figure out the pathways. And you'll know this pathway goes somewhere else, but it's guided by your whole being.

Yeah. It's profound that we did a ceremony right here underneath this terror, underneath this table. Like, it's. It's really special. That's really special. So thank you. Thanks, y', all for joining us. Go and share this podcast with somebody that needs it, because I think so many people do. So many people do.

So.

Yeah. And my. You can find the elders in your world. There's so many lonely elders that have so much wisdom to share.

Yes.

Yes. Yeah. They lived in a simpler time. Or not. And just make friends with your neighbors, especially indigenous elders.

Yeah.

I've sat with many.

Yeah.

We need this Earth wisdom.

Yeah. And now we get to sit with you. Yeah. It's such a blessing.

Such a blessing. Thank you, Margo for sharing with us. Thank you for letting us share with you. My Honor, thank you for coming on the un unplanned podcast episode too. That totally worked its way in magic. So just deep gratitude for you. Thank you babe, for being here. Okay, Peace.

Aloha.

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