Teal Swan: Feminism Is Eradicating Men! Women Can't Do It All on Their Own

If you would like to know what keeps me awake at night, it's this one. I feel like I spend my whole life trying to undo what other spiritual teachers do. We are in a crisis.

There's something off, and I think I've felt it deep inside me for my whole life. Yeah, I think most people do.

There's no other way to put it. We are literally eradicating men. Male children are going to become more rare and more rare and more rare because the wounds that feminine has experienced with the masculine have gotten to the point where there's a desire for them not to exist. We're in a scary point right now where most women are realizing that they're doing everything. The question is, where do men fit in? It's not actually possible to be a single mother. As women, we want to think that we can do it all, and even when it causes us pain, that we're expected to do it all. And because of it, children are suffering. We are suffering, and we're unable to actually set up the right structure within society to make it so that children can thrive. And we're always thinking about how to improve society that we live in. And the answer is with children.

But it takes us to parent ourselves first. How can we genuinely support mothers right now and give them the sacred honor they deserve?

Well, by recognizing, first and foremost the importance of the. You have every memory of every single ancestor in your body.

Yes.

That means that we are literally inheriting memory. So many of the ancestral patterns that we are experiencing are the byproduct of extreme traumas, traumas that most of us cannot even imagine today.

Do we go from there? Teal, thank you for being here.

It's good to be here.

Wow. I. I am, like, so excited. I want to say, five years ago, I. I learned about you, and I saw documentaries, and I saw all these things, and I'm like, you know what? I want to really know who she is, and I want my audience to connect with you. And. And I think a good way to do that would be this mission statement that you have on your website, which is. It's powerful. The transformation of human suffering to an empowered and authentic life. No pressure. You've been through suffering. You experience a lot of suffering at your conferences. But this mission you have, like, when. When did that actually come online? That's an interesting phrase. Come online.

When I realized I wasn't the only person who was struggling in this world, I guess. I mean, I had a really, really, really, really rough start. And, I mean, when you're Sort of looking out at the world and trapped in your narcissistic bubble of pain. It's very easy to feel like you're the only one in that position. After a while, when you really wake up to the reality that actually most people on this planet are struggling and you realize that you have some answer in that. It's like the picture makes a lot more sense. And there starts to be almost a desire for the collective, not just for yourself, because you stop telling yourself the story that everyone's fine and I'm the only one that's not.

Yeah, we're definitely not fine as a humanity with a lot going on, you know, the concepts that you've been exploring. One of the things I want to talk to you about today is the impossible task of single mothers, which at first glance, it may not seem impossible to some because they just force it. They're in such a force mode. And I feel like there's this unconscious integration that's trying to make itself conscious, which is moms actually taking hold of being a mother and loving that. And I see it in Kerry, Michelle, my lady, and I see it in my children just how sacred that is. That is actually how we heal the world, by raising children that are truly conscious. But it takes us to parent ourselves first. You're a mom. Your son is Winter. How old is winter now?

He's 14.

14. So one of the things I love that you said in one of your pieces was it's actually impossible. I'm gonna piss some people off, but it's impossible to have 100% presence as a lady, as a mother in her mission, and be a hundred percent powerful mother at the same time.

Yep. It's not.

And that. That flies in the face of so many hashtag boss bitches out there. What do you make of that?

Well, I mean, it's not a fun thing to hear. It's not a fun thing to have to say, but, I mean, I'm in the business of telling harsh truths regardless of whether we want to swallow them or not. I feel like, as women, we want to think that we can do it all, and even when it causes us pain, that we're expected to do it all. But we keep fueling ourselves with this illusion and fueling each other with this illusion. And because of it, children are suffering. We are suffering. And we're unable to actually set up the right structure within society to make it so that children can thrive, and let's say people in general can thrive. It's not just about children, you know, yeah, women cannot. It's not actually possible to be a single mother, nor is it actually a design. But I'm gonna go even more aggressive than that and say the single family household is not a design that works. So it's not like, you know, a man and a woman find each other and they're able to set up this little nuclear unit and that works. It doesn't work. Even that doesn't work. There's no way for that to provide enough resources for a child, and there's no way for that to provide enough resources for either parent. So what we've got as our norm now is drastic starvation and undernourishment that we have labelized, labeled as normal. We've normalized it.

How do you think we can nourish mothers? I think there's just this societal norm where it's like, okay, you're either a stay at home mom and there's really not enough grace given for that.

No, there's no grace given for that.

There's almost none. I mean, I, I look at the way that Kerry, Michelle and Naya and Nova in my family operate and I'm just like, oh, it's so hard. I actually have it easy in what I do.

I know.

Compared to Kerry, Michelle. So how can we not just as men, as human beings and right now, in 2024, and as we move forward with all that's going to happen, which, whoa, we're kind of in a crazy rollercoaster, how can we genuinely support mothers right now and give them the sacred honor they deserve?

Well, by recognizing first and foremost the importance of the, I don't want to even call it a job. The mission, the purpose that they have. I mean, it's like the tragedy is that we have drastically underappreciated the difficulty of the position of motherhood, especially full time motherhood, when somebody has made that their mission in life. Right? And we don't seem to understand what that job leads to. I mean, we're always thinking about how to improve society that we live in. And the answer is with children. Okay, so then who is more important, honestly, than the people who have their hands on our children? Be that whatever parent is home with them or whatever teacher it is that has got them in schools. So first, this journey towards being able to support women in that way is to acknowledge the importance. Once you acknowledge the importance, there is a proper level of esteem that's given to the position and not only a proper level of esteem. Usually there's some drive towards societal support for that Position of esteem. Obviously, though, in a. I mean, the prices within society are going to have to change because the reality is the majority of people in today's world cannot support a family on a one person income. So there's all kinds of structural issues that are presented by society itself that make this whole thing difficult. So what I'm watching is that the women who are really wanting to be in this position and are not necessarily in a relationship where, you know, a man has a job where his income alone is able to sustain the family, these people are having to get wildly creative with, you know, communal living situations so as to put themselves in the position to give them their children what it is that they need, you know, or we've got people who are going completely off the grid.

You know, everybody wants to live in like a 100 yard by 10,000 yard parcel and have like 5 families support each other. I think it's kind of cool.

Oh, I think it's way cooler than cool. Like this is literally the wave of the future. And I. And it's the younger generations that are going to take us there.

Okay, so if, if, and I believe what you're saying is true, and you know, I'm not here to stoke your ego, like I'm here to have a genuine conversation, but when I've watched your content, I have never found something where my body says no. And so at first glance you might be like, oh, you're trying to, you know, blow smoke at me. No, it's actually true. I was talking with Kerry Michelle last night. I'm like, there's nothing she says where I'm like a fundamental disagreement to. And when I heard you speak about the motherhood and the work, I'm like, yes, this is what is needed right now. And you know, on a personal note, like, how did that unfold for you? Growing Teal Swan, the community, the global community, while at the same time being a mother. Because I can see the challenges in that.

Well, you know, I would love to sit here in front of you and say that I have mastered it. The reality is it's been one of the most painful aspects of my whole life. The best decision that I ever made was to get very serious about my son's needs and figure out how to provide those needs while at the same time pursuing this purpose of mine. It's very difficult to have as much conviction towards what motherhood should look like and what children need as I do. And at the same time know that that's not my place. I know that I'm not meant to be at home. I know that this is what I'm meant to be doing, but that doesn't mean that I get to neglect my son's needs. So it became very obvious to me that he needed multiple attachment figures. Now, I'm going to say that all children do. Children are supposed to be growing up in tribe, and that is by far the more healthy model for not just children, but people in general. I'm somebody who practices what I preach and who applies what I see. So when I realized, especially when I realized that I was going to be taking on such a large mission, which would require so much of my time, I decided to get very creative with making sure that he had multiple attachment figures. Now, I raised him in intentional community his whole life. He never knew any different. But once I went into this career, it became, no, I need, like. I need, like, a great many people.

How many people?

Well, when he was younger, it was 22. Right now it's about seven.

22.

Yeah.

People.

Yeah.

How did you go about organizing that?

Well, I bought a retreat center, and I saw how many people wanted to be part of this movement. Movement life together. I'm not gonna lie. A lot of things went badly with that, but a lot of that has to do with fame. I think it's about 10 times harder for me to do what other people could do quite easily because of the fact that there are elements involved with me in my life that aren't introduced into the average person's life. And it creates a whole host of different issues. But my son has grown up with anywhere between, you know, six, seven, eight parental figures and most of those who have been with him his entire life. So when I go off on trips like I'm on right now, and he's not with me, he's with the other people he's attached to. And he's never. He's never demonstrated any type of attachment and security, which, you know, it was definitely an experiment for me. I was like, well, let's see how much mommy really matters. If from, you know, day one, essentially, he's got all of these people who are always there, you know. But also, as he's getting older, I'm bringing him with me on a lot of these trips. And obviously, if you've got, like, an entourage of people, then, you know, I can be doing an interview like this, and he could be, say, playing on the lake over there, you know, and it's been incredible just watching the way that he has bloomed and learned about the world in that way. But all of this, you know, being said, I still am a part of this society enough to be influenced by all kinds of things. You know, like, it's definitely an interesting situation that I've got with his schools because over the course of his life, even though I found some very good schools there, there's definitely an attitude of, you know, what is a mom doing with this type of profession? And my son, of course, I wouldn't put him in public school if you paid me to.

My children will never touch public school.

That's my attitude, too. So basically I was like, look, either. Either I'm gonna get real creative and hire somebody to do this with this kid, or I'm gonna find a school that is off the hook. Amazing. I've done that. But it doesn't mean that, you know, when you've got a school that's off the hook, amazing. It doesn't mean that they're outside and completely exempt from this, you know, societal projection or expectation. So he goes to a school which is primarily full of incredibly wealthy individuals and their children. And I want to tell you that by far and away, the majority is men who, you know, are incredibly successful. They're trophy wives who do nothing, and their children and these women can do whatever they want, whenever they want. So I'm always the one who shows up at these meetings. And, you know, because the emails for winter school get sent through six different people, like, I hardly hear about this kind of stuff. So I'll show up at the parent teacher conferences, and they're like, oh, did you hear about this drive? But it's. It's always said in a kind of way, of course you do, because, you know, you were somewhere else.

So there's implied shame there.

There's tons of implied shame. Not only that, you know, I'm not the one that picks him up from schools. Like, I'll sit with him for an hour every single morning because it's really important for me to connect with him that way. And I'm the one that puts him to bed every single night. Right? But the school never sees that. All they see is, you know, one of the other members of the community picking him up and dropping them off. So they really don't have a sense of the connection that I do have with my son. And I have felt the shade on such an extreme level. It's like an attitude of. And especially around the fame. What's interesting is, like, if you've got, like, a famous dad, there's not this projection that you're ruining your kid's life. I definitely have that projection from so many of the parents that are in the school. What are you doing dragging your child into this world of fame? Have you ever thought about the impact on him? No. You know, I teach about all the psychology stuff and never thought about it, not even a single day in my life.

You know, there was a point in one of your videos, you said that, you know, if you can run from fame, you should do so. Yeah, why is that?

Because fame introduces like a magnification on a level that majority of people cannot handle. And even people who can handle a lot will reach a point in it where they're like, I don't know whether I can handle this. I mean, obviously when. When you've got a high degree of fame, it's like you're in the spotlight where everything you do suddenly is a problem for somebody else or is an item of gossip for somebody else. But I can actually handle a lot of those pressures. What it was for me, and the real reason that I said, you know what I said about that, is that the majority of people are not actually compatible to those types of pressures. There's a lack of freedom that comes with fame. That is not normal for people. For example, it magnifies the human ego. People are really only interested in getting to know you based off of who they think you are in the world or what they think you can do for them. So the level of intimacy drops immediately and your level of loneliness goes way the hell through the roof. But most people are not really compatible to things like that, you know, not being able to trust people and so forth. So they back out. So what most people are not really prepared for when they hit the world of fame is what it does to your social life. Remember how I mentioned we had 22 people to begin with? Yeah. Most people are not really compatible to this. And so you end up losing people left and right and left and right. So not only are you underneath an intense amount of pressure, everyone around you is bowing out.

My heart goes out to you for what you have been through. I have, like. I don't have sympathy for you. I have compassion for how much drama was created from these documentaries that were created. It's such bullshit. And honestly, I don't even want to spend time on it, really. It's like not even a game I want to play, but the fact that it's there. There's something in the human psyche, Teal, that we put these people on pedestals and. And then we want to knock Them down. Now, when I say the we, I mean the unconscious part of the I. What is that about the human psyche where we, you know, aggrandize people and then we love tearing them apart? It's so unhealthy, yet I see it everywhere. What is that in us?

I mean, I just see that as the ego in a state of competition. I mean, we get a lot of needs met out of putting people on pedestals. We feel like we have something to look up to, something to look forward to. We. We feel like we have some guidance. Right. There's a lot of needs that we have out of somebody being above us, but we've been wounded by people who are above us. So we've got power issues as well. So the second that we feel like somebody on top of us, the unsafety kicks in and the feelings of lessness and so there. That then kicks in this other side of us, which is like, I need equality, or actually, I need power over that person, or actually, I'm just as good, if not better than you. So you start to see this awakening of the competitive ego in response to the very thing which we have glorified.

It's so wild. I got access to your program, and I absolutely love it. I'm like, four or five videos in the ancestral healing course, which shout out to one of your staff members here in the studio right now, and she's actually in the program. This work, it's not for the faint of heart. Like, once you actually go down the spiritual path, you can't stop the ride if you're truly committed.

Yeah, there's no way.

I even heard somebody on Instagram. She says, you know, spirituality and spiritual growth is not all puppy dogs and candy canes. It's Iron Maiden.

Yep. It is. Totally Y.

So how has that played out for. For the people that have been taking this course? Because this is, like, the crux, the fundamental piece which weaves a tapestry into parenting and being a conscious parent. It's actually healing the ancestry, but not by pushing them away, by bringing in all of the things the dark and the light from. Our parents are great greats. I have a altar right here that honors my ancestors. I put it out today, and there's pictures of everyone, and I'm like, huh? How can I take an emotional inventory of all the ways in which I've rejected them? But you talk about this being a actual protection mechanism, which I love. Can you explain that a little bit?

Explain which bit? The importance of the ancestry.

Well, there's so much there I Think I asked you, like, three things, but basically, let's dive into ancest ancestry and the healing of that. And the concept I want to explore with you first, before we get into other layers, is when we reject a family member specifically. I rejected my father for a long time, and because there was deep pain there and it was necessary that I went through a grieving process. But just yesterday, actually, from watching your course, I reached out to him, and I'm just like, hey, I want to connect with you. He actually reached out to me New Year's Eve, and he's like, I want to have a relationship again. It had been three years since we've spoken.

Wow.

That's how we heal ancestry. It's not by rejecting them forever. It's by putting down the swords and the shields. That's what the fuck is needed right now in the world. So can you talk about this model of. Of the protector and the rejector?

All right, so as it applies to ancestry, if we have had some kind of damage, usually with a parental figure, it can be with a grandparent, if we had direct access to them. What we tend to do when we are in rejection of them is we close ourselves off from that very powerful ancestral stream that is coming through the family line on that side to us. And when we cut off that stream, we prevent not only the, let's say, negative, detrimental patterns that are running through that line. We cut off all of the ancestral gifts that are running through that line. And it's a lot of energy. Like, if I was to show, you know, a typical person the amount of energy that is coming through the consciousness of a family line straight to their being, and said, you're about to disconnect yourself intentionally from this. It would shock you to see how much of an energy stream that's cutting off. Not only that, a sense of fitting in and a sense of belonging. You know, which is why it kind of makes me sad sometimes when parents, you know, cut off a specific family line for the sake of their kids, not understanding what that's just done to their kids. Right. It's part of why we have this saying in genealogy communities that that which the grandfather wishes to forget, the grandson wishes to remember. Okay, so we've got an aspect that essentially wants to protect ourselves by cutting off our ancestry. Now, we can get into abusive relationship dynamics later because this is not me inviting people to just go and keep all kinds of toxicity in your life, but it's like it doesn't matter whether an individual within a family line is toxic that doesn't mean you should cut off the entire family line. Right. In the same vein, with that protection dynamic, this rejector is essentially trying to keep you safe from all the pain that you have experienced in relationship to those family patterns. Right. So knowing that, where should we go from there?

Well, I think it's a really big. It's an. It's an. A misunderstood thing where there's a lot of bullshit adage out there in the spiritual world that's really. Spiritual commoditization. Spirituality has been commoditized like rice or grain. You know, it's like, here's my spiritual PDF. You know, go ahead and take that, and you're fully healed. I love how you go against that, because actually, I don't even know if you go against it. I think you're just for something else. I don't think you're pushing against that. So this piece I really want to explore with you is. It's not about just love and light. And if somebody doesn't make you feel good, then you push them out, and who cares if they're a family member? It's not that simple. And I think as human beings, we intellectualize, we reductionize how healing can be.

Yeah, well, it's tempting, isn't it? Because we all want that one answer.

It's an easy path. It's like, if somebody makes me feel bad, well, then just do what feels good, brother. Yeah, just do what feels good. But when it comes to healing our lineage and really addressing ancestral trauma, it is not that simple. No, it's not a complex weave.

It's very complex.

How so? What's the complexity there that we. That we really should understand?

Well, the complexity is that once you understand where some of these negative ancestral patterns come from, you can't stand in such powerful rejection of them. Even if you can, say, look at them and judge them as something that's detrimental and you needs to be changed. I mean, so many of the ancestral patterns that we were experiencing are the byproduct of extreme traumas, traumas that most of us cannot even imagine today and that are still. I mean, it's like it's the. The family line or whatever person that you interacted with thinks that that pattern is going to save them still, otherwise they wouldn't be continuing that pattern. So there's a drastic lack of ownership that occurs when we don't have that information. And I. You know, it's definitely when you have that information, it's less black and white, you know, when you understand that you Know, say, say the aloofness with which you were raised is because of the way your ancestors lived in Scandinavia X amount of years ago. Or the hypochondria that you see in your family line is because everybody in that family line left every lost every person they knew. When you have that information, I mean, really in your hands, and not only you have the information in front of you, you can feel it in your body. It is alive history. All of a sudden, it's not as simple as, oh, I need to cut my mom out of my life or my dad out of my life because they keep making me anxious about medical conditions, for example. All of a sudden it's like, wait, wait, wait. I need to take more ownership of the fact that this is a pattern that's been running rampant through my entire family line. It's mine. Now that I know that it's mine, what am I going to do with it? How can what I do with it benefit not only me, but all of the ancestors that have come before me? Mom, grandma, great grandma, whatever it is. And it's actually, what's interesting is that when I'm working with people with this ancestral healing stuff, it puts people in so much more power. And without exception, I've seen this where. When they really are able to track where things came from and almost see the picture of their parents and grandparents as victims of that runaway train. It's like I'm watching people rise up and be like, wait a minute. It's like I have a memory that I deliberately came into this to change this. And maybe that's why I have the information that other people didn't have before. And maybe that's why I live in this time period where I have access to this kind of resource that other people didn't have before. So it's no longer like you're underneath the whole system. All of a sudden you're above the system. And people are even. Even scapegoats of families are able to see themselves instead as the saviors of their family line.

That's so good. Okay, so if someone is feeling the deep wounding or even anger that on the scale of healing, anger is a piece of it. It's not like we want to bypass anger.

Oh, yeah.

So if someone's stuck in the anger around ancestral healing and they're really using that rejector mechanism, which is essentially, would you call it, their unconscious that is protecting them, or how would you describe that protection mechanism?

The. It's just an aspect of character. I mean, we are able to fragment Our psyche. Right. So the aspect that is protecting ourselves in that way is literally just some aspect of us that has a personal truth. And what it doesn't want to experience is an avoidance.

It's painful.

Yeah. And is carrying out that avoidance in a specific way, that aspect has to be heard out. So that's the first. First thing. It's why, you know, one of the first things that I lead people into, if they've got any resistance to ancestral healing, is to actually go into and look at and resolve that resistance first, not to bulldoze yourself into it. You know, I'm not encouraging people who are like, I absolutely hate my mom. I don't even want to know when they're in that mode. For example, I'm not going to be like, no, bulldoze yourself because it's good for you. No, Like, I'd much rather have the person work with the aspect of themselves directly that's got this. All this resistance so that they can really hear what are the fears. Because I'm not suggesting that you should, like, bulldoze into ancestral healing. I'm saying, well, maybe that aspect of you that's in resistance has some really good boundaries that it wants to express to you. And maybe that aspect of you gets on board once you've reassured it that you're not going to do that. Like, one of those boundaries may be, you know, my mom's like an abusive alcoholic. I don't want to be in contact with her. I really don't. Okay. So if that aspect of you is like, this is my thing right now. I don't. I'm too afraid of my ability to not keep my boundaries. You might be like, all right, I'm not going to force you then to go contact mom. We're not going to do that. But let's start asking maybe aunts or uncles about some information, or maybe go hire a genealogist that can tell us some of this information. You start to work with the whole family line without having to make it about, I need to be in contact with mom. Right. So, I mean, these parts that are in resistance often have very powerful information about our personal truths and needs that we have been ignoring. Right. You only really see that come up in a person if they have been behaving in zero sum game ways with themselves. Right. So they can't trust themselves.

And by zero sum, you mean I'm safe and you're unsafe.

Yeah. And we're doing this on an internal level all the time. It's like a zero sum game. Is I win, you lose, Right?

Yeah.

So we're playing this game with ourselves all day, especially when we have been raised in environments where we have a poor sense of our own boundaries. It's like you've got the aspect of you that's like, I don't want to go. I don't want to go to the party. I don't want to go to the party. But you're going to end up there anyways. Right. So the aspect of you that was like, no, no, no. Is like, it doesn't matter what I do. It doesn't matter what I say. Right. It's just difficult for people, I guess, when they see themselves as un individual. It's difficult for people to conceptualize of themselves as like a amalgamation of selves, multiple selves, and that those cells have a very complex system of relationships so as to do the integrative work to make it so that these selves are in coherence with one another. And you see that arise a lot when you're working with ancestral traumas. Why? Because the traumas that we went through with our family, specifically of origin, is the genesis of so many of ourselves. So if you want a parts calamity or a healing crisis to arise, a really good way of making that happen is ancestral healing because it has a way of, like, bringing them to the surface. You know, all of a sudden you're seeing your own protectors as like, oh, that's not an original protector. Here I am thinking, I'm all original. That's the same one my dad uses, copy paste, you know. Oh, and it's the same one that his dad used, Copy paste. Yeah.

There have been so many moments where when I have a conflict with Kerry Michelle, I'll reflect and I'll be like, wow, I just acted exactly like my father.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Have you found that in your own life? I mean, look, you're far along on the scale, right?

Yeah.

But there's so much to learn at every level. So have you found that in your own life where you're like, wow, I just acted like my mom or my dad?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

How so?

So the patterns that I have taken that are definitely the most problematic in my life are my mother's patterns around anxiety. Like, a lot of anxiety. You can see it when I get on airplanes, for example. You know, I hate airplanes. Oh. I feel completely out of control. Have a very hard time with trusting that life is going to pan out.

Well, it's wild that way. Big tube of metal flying through the air.

That's my thing.

Yeah, it's wild.

I mentally can't deal with it. And I realized that I've had, like, engineers try to explain this to me, and it doesn't help. So. But, yeah, I mean, when I'm watching myself, that is the. That's the pattern that I noticed the most. And I'm like, oh, there's the Cleveland again. But, I mean, it was. What has been very transformative for me is to understand where the hell that came from, because it's. I mean, the anxiety is so extreme on that family line that we get each other going. I mean, it's like my joke around my mother, and I, you know, she'll send me, like, some update of some calamity happening, which nobody can do anything about, you know, and I'm like, you know, instantly panicking, and I'm just like, what is this? Like, what our family does is just remind each other of all the crises that could possibly happen and, like, how it's going to ruin everything. Okay. So I go back in that family line, and it's. At this point, I'm getting very overwhelmed by the amount of calamity that is being turned over by the team of genealogists that I have hired. Things that even my family didn't know, has no memory of. It didn't get passed down. It's the kind of stuff that people just don't want to talk about anymore.

How do you go about hiring these genealogists? How do you decipher which ones are talented and not?

I. I literally did not even go about finding out which ones were talented or not. I found people who had, like, specialties. So let's say that you've got. You find out that you've got, like, Chinese ancestry. You're researching somebody who specializes in a specific area of China. Right. They're going to be the ones that have just poured all of their time and energy into understanding the history in those regions and the families, prominent families in those regions. And so I was looking specifically for people who specialized in the regions where my family was from. I mean, there's all kinds of sites out there. It's really not hard to find genealogists. There's all kinds of sites. Also. The Mormon Church is obsessed with. I mean, capital O, obsessed with this kind of stuff. And they're very helpful for a lot of interesting reasons. So you can contact them and be like, I need somebody who specializes, say, in, like, Mexican ancestry of this region in Mexico. And they're very good at being like, oh, let's just help you. We have 5,000 volunteers today, you know, so I got lucky in that way because I'm close enough to them. Yeah. But these genealogists have just been turning over information just left and right about how many horrible. I'm talking truly horrible. Blindsiding events keep happening generation after generation, and family. And I'm like, my gosh, no wonder we're this way.

This is what you talk about with the indirect inherited trauma. Is this an aspect of that?

Yes, it is. Yeah.

One thing in your course that I loved. I'm not going to give away the farm because the course is freaking awesome. It's so well done.

Thank you.

Like, there's so much you can tell that you really care. You know, people, a lot of people out there in the spiritual world, they're interested in making money. And I think money is just a byproduct of us here in the 3D we incarnated. And money's here, so let's do the best we can. And all I have to say about that is, like, wow, there's certain things, like my great grandfather, I didn't have a relationship with him, obviously. My grandfather was a brigadier general in the Marine Corps. So I know that's within my lineage as well. But one thing that fascinated me about you is you had this irrational fear of whales.

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

And it was like. It was to the point where you were like, oh, I just. I would get nauseous or I'd get bothered paralysis. Bring up a whale. Yeah, talk about that with this indirect inherited piece. Because I don't think many people know about this.

Okay, so indirect inherited trauma is where you didn't have a direct interaction with some kind of a problem, and yet it's in your body. And they've done all kinds of studies around this. This is not like, you know, I'm telling you some out of this world spiritual concept that people don't know about yet. They've done all kinds of studies with mice. For example, they've been doing even more interesting ones with worms. But these mice studies are entertaining where they. They introduce the scent of cherry blossom to mice, male mice, while they shock them with an electrode, Then they separate the babies from both mom and dad immediately upon birth. What this means is that there's no way for there to be some kind of a mice communication that we can't track. Those infants of those mice, they still show a reaction like a hyperactivity to the scent of cherry blossom five generations later.

Yes.

That means that we are literally inheriting memory. Now, I'm going to go one step further and tell you that you have every memory of every single ancestor in your body, whether you have conscious access to it or not. And some of those fears are active because it makes sense for them to be active and some are not. Now, if. If you're in an environment, it just makes sense, you know, in terms of evolution. If you're in an environment and there is a threat in that environment, doesn't it make sense for that to be downloaded without you having to teach your young? Hell, yeah. Makes sense. Okay, so this is where it gets really super entertaining with me in Wales, right, Because I've always had this issue, like a. Like a big one, right? And it's funny because I'm like, I'm complete animal lover, right? But whales, they come around, panic. One day, my dad just casually drops when he watches me have one of these reactions to a whale on the screen. He's like, what's that about? I'm like, what are you asking me that for? You know, you've only been with me for the last 30 years. Of course I have an issue with whales. He's like, hmm, that's kind of funny. I think if I remember it, we have a whaler in the family. I'm like, wait, wait, wait. You are just now telling me this? Turns out my dad didn't even know. So let's go. Two years later, I hire these genealogists. They go down the trail and they're like, oh, your fifth great grandfather was literally the father of whaling on the east coast of America. And it was four generations of whalers. I go out there, I walk through my family home, right? And turns out that I have one great grandfather who was actually lost at sea in a fight with a sperm whale. And like their entire. For so many generations of so many grandfathers of mine who were all in the whaling business, their nightmares would have revolved around this. Because the whaling gold, right, was the sperm whale. And the sperm whales were the ones who had this tendency to turn on boats. That's what Moby Dick was about, this Essex incident, right? Whale, where they went after a bull sperm whale, and it took down the whole damn ship. Whaling was intense business. It's not like these guys went down gently, right? And it wasn't like, you know, now where you're harpooning them, right? You would get out in this little boat with four men and try to spear this thing to death, and then it would drag you for Miles and miles and miles and miles and you know, the whole time bleeding through the water. So at the end of it, you've got sharks that are up sort of trying to feed off the carcass. It was grizzly. So, you know, these men, this would have been the bulk of the content of their panic attacks. And it is in my body, even though I have literally ready for this, never lived near the ocean. I have lived in the mountains my entire life.

So because of that inherited piece or. Yeah, that is so wild. So it fascinates me because it makes me inspired to go get a genealogist and. And this trauma piece is like Mark Wolin I've had on the show a couple times and I don't know if you know of his work. He wrote a book called It Didn't Start with youh. But, you know, regardless of it not starting with us, it's our responsibility to heal it anyways. And so what I thought was so fascinating is that you and him both, whenever I get wisdom from different sources that are trustworthy, I start to really do my best to embody that. And one thing that you said is that, you know, healing relational trauma, if you have real deep relational trauma, you cannot heal it outside of relationship. It's just not possible. So you had this inherited piece with the whales and I'm sure you did healing work on that. So I'll let you finish that actually first before I ask the other question. Finish how you actually healed that, because there's a take home there for all of us.

I haven't completely healed yet. This is something that I'm in the ongoing process of doing. So with me, this is an intense enough fear that I have no intention of getting in the water with a whale right now. Like, it's that bad. Okay.

It's a work in progress. Yeah.

What it is, is, like I'm understanding. It helps a lot to understand where this fear comes from. Right. Which is not necessarily the nature of the animal. It comes from the ways they were responding to my antagonistic ancestors. Right. When I was in Sag harbor, which is where this whole family essentially settled and built this entire business, I went out into the water and the first thing that I did was to send out this. It was like a very deep meditative prayer where I was sending out this apology to the oceans and to the life in the oceans, especially the whales. Right. And I mean, this is going to sound odd unless you're really tapped in esoterically, but it was like the second that I set foot there it was like everything knew that I was there. And it was like. It was almost like a rub, an energetic rub there with the oceans being like, are you going to be just like them? Of course not. I'm a total crunchy granola that way. Right. But I was, like, sending out this prayer to say that I'm. My. My promise is going to be the opposite. I know that I came from this line of people, but my promise is to do the exact opposite from the exploitation that. That you, being the ocean, experienced. And it was a really healing thing to experience that. Not only that, to have my son there with me. Of course, I took him on that trip, right? And he was paddling around in this bay where my ancestors used to be and his ancestors used to be. And he was, you know, totally the opposite of just going after things to the detriment of, you know, we've got this very gentle child who has been raised vegan and who is very much like a friend of all the animals and loves the ocean. Not like me, Right? So he was paddling around and playing, and it was just absolutely magical. So we can go from there to, you know, I'm watching documentaries on these animals and, you know, every time that fear arises, it's like I'm trying to understand them. Instead, I am doing meditations where I'm going into their perspective, because the more you understand, the less you fear now, you know, And I'm assuming that this is going to lead me at some point to interacting with them. Most likely, I'm not going to go.

For the sperm whales first, maybe some dolphins. That'll lead you there. Okay. So thank you for sharing that and also thank you for your honesty. Like, you know, one thing that you've shared in the past that I want to touch on is, like, a couple years back, you had this complex that you recognized in yourself, which is super humble and also just very trust. Trustworthy that you realize there was a superiority complex. You could sit here on the pod and be like, oh, it's healed, I'm good. But it's not like that. No matter. And this is what I said earlier, no matter what stage you are, you're very far along compared to most people on Earth. Very far along. And there's still work to do.

Oh, yeah, always.

There's always going to be work. So I feel like. And I know you feel this way, too, based on what I've seen and heard from you. We cannot. This is my earlier question, we just cannot heal certain aspects of relational trauma unless you're in a relationship, we are in committed relationship. And this flies in the face of so many spiritual commodifiers out there who say everything you have is within you and it's just so not the case. And I've always, I've always felt actually an aversion to that statement.

Good.

So when I heard you speak it, it was like my spine said, yes, go deeper into that for us, please. Because there is one way of thinking where it's like love and light and everything you need is within your heart. Not the case. If you have trauma around relationships, you have to be in that round circle of relationship to heal it.

Exactly. Well, the first thing that I feel like people need to understand is that the vast majority of people who are pushed towards the spiritual field are pushed there because of relational trauma. They've experienced enough pain with people that they're no longer looking to people for their answers. They're looking to connect with something else. Usually that's when people turn to the spiritual realm. Right.

Or they get sucked in by a church.

Yeah, something like that. Now that can. I'm not going to be able to make that whole entire process negative because sometimes that's exactly what turns people towards their non physical self and towards the awareness of this whole other dimension of life. However, we can go towards that in rejection of. And that is very much something that I'm watching this huge demographic of relationally traumatized individuals do is they're like, oh, I can now disconnect from other people in human relationships and I can be in connection with myself and in connection with God and tell myself all kinds of stories based on even true principles that exist about the universe that enable me to be avoidant of relationships and make it so that I'm never back in that vulnerable position that I'm in in a relationship. As people, we are running away from the vulnerability of relationship. It's really as simple as that. Because it takes two to make a relationship work. And there's no way to get around that. You are dancing a tango. Okay? So dancing a tango, you can't get around the fact that the other person can mess up the tango. That's what you're stepping into by virtue of getting into that in the first place. You say I'm in a relationship, right? Then you're automatically in a vulnerable position because the other person can either dance with you in that dance or not. We don't want to accept that. And I find it kind of, I mean, I understand it because being in the powerless state is not Fun for anybody. But people want to either think that they can do something to be able to control the entire relationship so it's no longer about what the other person does or doesn't do, or that they can just withdraw from relationship entirely. And then all the needs they would be going for in relationship, they can get some other way. It feels more empowered, it feels less vulnerable. But you can't eradicate your needs that way, number one. Number two, that is not the mastery of relationship. The mastery of relationship is a mastery of the tango. That's. It takes two. And whenever you get damaged in relationship, you have to heal what was damaged in relationship. In relationship. That's what people don't want to accept about relationship damage, whereas they would never think that way with any other type of damage.

Yeah.

You know we were just talking about whales, right? I got huge whale issues. Oh, good. Well, you can definitely fix that. Never going in the ocean again, Teal. I mean, that's essentially what you're saying when it's like, oh, I've got all kinds of relational trauma. Luckily, I found everything I need within. That's the same thing as me being like, I've got issues with whales. I figured out how to heal it within myself. I will never go near whales, and that's okay because I've got whales within. I mean, like, what the hell is that about? I mean, it makes no sense relative to every other subject.

So it's a trap. People fall into this trap where it's like, well, if it feels good, do it. I can't hear in Austin. I mean, it reminds me of LA a lot.

Oh, I just said that this morning.

Yeah, there's some LA vibes here. I lived in California for 40 years. We moved out here because of the COVID Theater. And I realized when I got out here, I'm like, wow, so many people exited that it kind of has a mini Cali vibe out here.

Like, yes, it does. Yes, it does.

And so, you know, to piggyback on what you said, it's like, God, there's no way I could be able to hold the space financially, energetically, to learn about integration of the masculine feminine in me. Unless I was with Carrie Michelle, there's no way. And especially being a father of two children. Oh, my God, y', all. It's no joke. There's no but I'm so grateful for it. There's this. We've heard this before. There's a gift in the pain. There's a gift in the growth, but it doesn't feel like that, when we're in the middle of the contraction, that's the hardest part for us to be. So when we're there in that sticky spot and we're feeling massive resistance come up, where do we go from there?

Face the resistance.

I mean, it sounds so simple.

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's not comfortable, but that's the only place to go. You never want to. Whenever resistance presents itself, you have to look directly at it. You have to dive into it. You have to understand it completely. Also, whatever it is that that resistance is opposing because it's essentially your own being indicating to you that you've got an internal war going on. Your goal has to be to end that war. And the only way to do so is to understand both sides as deeply as is possible, to find wherever their alignment actually is.

Hence the parts work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love it. Yeah.

Wow. And. And that. I want to go a little bit more into that because intellectually I think people got it, but I really want people's hearts to open up to this. I was in an NLP training and we did some parts work, we did parts integration where we close our eyes and we listed out all the good qualities and actually all the painful qualities, all the loving qualities. And at the end of the day, what I really wanted was peace. And I wanted power. But I can't have power unless I'm coming from a place of peace. Because power that take, that is taken by force, you can't trust that shit. It's not trustable. Have you held those two worlds in yourself? I mean, the platform that you've created and like here you're speaking for, I think 300 plus people right in a room. People come to you in a very disempowered state at times.

Yeah.

And so how do you hold the peace and the power in yourself? And what kind of parts work have you done personally to hold your own peace and your own power and really make that something sustainable?

You know, it's come not from parts work itself necessarily with aspects of myself, but it's come from developing a level of awareness where I cannot disconnect from other people so as to lose the truth. And I mean on a very deep felt sense that other is a part of self. What this has moved me into is, is almost in alignment with the peace aspect of what you're describing is there is no part of me that wants to be in a situation with an other person, whether it's an individual or a group of people, and do something that's against their Best interests. What that creates is what you would consider a peaceful power, where you're essentially pulling an entire audience in as an aspect of yourself. And there's this deep level of care and positive ownership for how things are landing with them, whether they understand it or not, whether we're pushing them in the direction of something that's beneficial for them or detrimental for them. A deep attunement with whether something is actually in alignment with them or, you know, as a projection of what somebody else would benefit by or, you know, prefer. So it's. It's like taking the best interest of other on such a profound level that it has moved me into, I would say, deeper and deeper levels of a power which I think you can only possess as a genuine leader, as opposed to somebody who's just wanting to be in the top position for the sake of keeping themselves safe in that position, which is the majority of the reason why people want to go for power. They think that's a safer position.

That's really the fuel source for unconscious capitalism. And I'm not here to debate politics, but, like, there's definitely a unconscious vein of capitalism. Like, I love my team so much, I'm happy every time I pay them. It's like a true relationship. So in that way, I'm a conscious capitalist, right? But I also know that no system is perfect. I think we'd all love to be in Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory and be like, hey, everybody's got a golden ticket. But even if you look at Ken Wilber's work and understanding who we are, we cannot have no hierarchy. There has to be some type of hierarchy. There has to be some type of system where there is checks and balances. Because otherwise it would all just be eventually chaos. There's got to be some order in there. What do you make of that? Where we are in that specific lens of just beingness on planet Earth and capitalism as a whole.

Well, for now, that's accurate. Because human beings are not at the point where they can take each other as a part of themselves. Not just each other, other species as a part of them, themselves. Until we develop that capacity, we cannot be trusted with each other. So a lot of these checks and balances you're describing, quote, unquote, need to be in place. Because of that lack of consideration, we have not become yet a species that is capable of the mastery of relationships, even though it's a potential of ours. There's so much about what we're living in that's flawed. I mean, obviously we're living in the byproduct of a lot of desires that have hatched before. Right. So capitalism is one of those desires that was hatched from levels of limitation which people did not enjoy before. So what we are is standing in this position to launch a new design for what is an improvement, you know, and that looks much more like a design where we're prioritizing, caretaking each other whilst at the same time not limiting each other. That's ultimately what we're all looking for. Right. Because so many of the designs for government or economy that seem to be come up with are something that limits us and our growth and our potentials and our. All the things that make humanity what humanity is whilst meeting the needs of people who are not doing so well. Right. So what we're looking for is a blend of both. And I have not, as of yet, not that I have taken in everybody's ideas across the totality of humanity, but we have not yet come up with that perfect model.

Something just hit me. So when we look at ancestral trauma, what is the ancestral trauma that is asking for collective healing? A lot of what you and I have talked about is individual healing, but on a collective, maybe even a collective unconscious level, where we are what is asking to be healed through our collective ancestry right now in the way that we interface with each other.

Oh, there's so many things I'll do, like top hits. Okay. So in terms of collective ancestry, there is a deep drive for there to be a merging between freedom and connection across cultures. If I was to take the whole world in, right? There is this tug of war that's been happening for generations between wanting very deep, very intimate connections that you can rely upon for the totality of your life without those connections being the limiting factor in somebody going for what makes them happier, going for a sense of personal success. So it's where the personal meets the collective that you see the greatest amount of drive and desire emanating out of the collective. And that's. That's one of them that I think is quite.

Do you feel like that's an expression of integrated, healthy ego at that place, or is it something else if we actually get there? Yeah, yeah, that's the goal, right? Yeah, I don't think I'm there yet, but yes, that's the goal.

That's the goal. There is a drive for understanding that is emanating from everyone on an ancestral level. It's been entertaining for me to look at that particular vibration because it means that so many different demographics feel completely misunderstood in their perspective. And I'm really excited to see how this plays out in terms of politics specifically, because the wave of the future is that politicians are going to have to drastically and deeply understand whatever it is that they are teaching to. It's no longer going to be something which we accept that they are making comments on experiences they've never had. Right. Which means what? It means that we're going to have leaders who have to be practicing consciousness work in order to be able to grasp the concepts that they themselves are passing policy on.

That's the kind of world I want to live in.

Oh, me too. That's the one that's like, maybe I'll stick around a little. Yeah, but that one, that place that we are headed is the direct result of so many ancestral cultures and ancestral individuals feeling so incredibly misunderstood and so decisions, the wrong decisions being made about them. Right. Okay, what's another I'll do, I'll pick three because otherwise we're gonna be here all day long. Like, this is one of my favorite things to look at. You've really brought me in the direction of what I love looking at, by the way.

I love it too, because ever since I was a little boy, I'm like, what the fuck is this? This what's going on here? Like there's something off. And I think I've felt it deep inside me for my whole life. Yeah, I think most people do an interstitial tension, if you will.

Yes, I think feels it. That's a very, very good way to put it. Yes. Okay, so if I was to pick the third thing that is emanating from like the collective subconscious that relates to our ancestry, it's like coping would be the next thing that comes up. There's this feeling of powerlessness amongst people in general. It doesn't matter where you are looking in the world. That feeling of powerlessness is that I can't change certain aspects of my circumstances. And because I can't change certain aspects of my circumstances, I am coping with them in this way and at this very deep primal level. Whenever we are forced to cope in some way, we acknowledge that we cannot change a stressor which we want to change desperately. So there is a dreaming of a being able to change the circumstances and change the stressor so as to not have to cope with what we don't want to cope with. Now this ancestral trauma is what we can point to for movements, movements like the feminist movement, movements like even what you're seeing within right now, the Gen Z culture, is bringing in a movement around. Why can't. Why isn't it enough for us to just be. They're actually ending the toxicity of the workplace condition which is, you know, brought in by the industrial era when everybody came in and your worth was really about what you could do in front of a machine. Your worth is what you do. And that's the end of it. They are, they are literally and legitimately ending it right now. We can talk about all their dysfunction later. But these movements within a generation and these movements within an entire culture happen because of these ancestral pains like what I'm just describing. I have to cope with this thing I do not like there have been. I'll tell you where the, where the Gen Zs got this from because they would probably tell you it came from some form of disillusionment in their own life. But actually it came because their grandparents and parents were so miserable eking their life out for the sake of the pennies they got in their job and really not experiencing any life satisfaction as a result of all that hard work they were doing that they have imbued this strong, powerful desire to really be in life and in the enjoyment of life. Interesting, right?

I felt that with my own father. Like, he kicks his ass, he's miserable. Why would I want money? I had to go through so many layers of wounding around money before I transcended and I was like, okay, it's actually just a unit of exchange. It's literally just a way that you give and receive energy. That's all that it is. But what you're talking about with Gen z, I'm like 1980. So I'm like one foot in the old generation, one foot in the other one. I don't know. Depending on however you believe these dates actually mean anything. But it's so fascinating to me because what you're saying is true. Like there's so much pain body around people seeing their parents and grandparents suffering for fucking money that they themselves reject it. But isn't that a form of the protector and the rejector that you speak about?

Yeah. And anytime we're dealing with a protector that is using rejection as a strategy for staying safe, you run the risk of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. And so you see the manifestation of the shadows of that. Let's say in Gen Z you've got the oh, why can't I just enjoy life and be celebrated in my value for being. At the same time as you've got a generation of individuals who are not willing to take Any pushback, Therefore, you don't really see this strong commitment to whatever value they hold and whatever challenge meets them. They don't go, wait a minute. Challenges an element of life. I'm going to stay the course regardless of the challenges of life. It's a. Give that up, Give that up. So it seems like a very weak culture and a very weak generation because of that. So we run the risk of falling into the shadow anytime we step in any direction. And that's something, honestly, for those of us that are on the path of consciousness, I feel like this is one of the most important things that we can be aware of, is that anytime we commit to a path, that path can get us in trouble. We have to be aware of the trouble that path can get us in.

No doubt.

Otherwise, we ourselves become dangerous.

It's what Castaneda talks about, I think it's like he has the four pieces of life. And the second one is clarity. Clarity has a shadow. If you think you know exactly the way, then there's a shadow that comes there that you could possibly not even know. You don't know.

Yeah.

The shadow of clarity, by the way.

That'S the one that makes me the most panicked. If you would like to know what. What keeps me awake at night, it's this one.

How so?

You never know what you don't see. I'm somebody who, I would tell you, has much more clarity than the majority of human beings that have been walking the earth ever. This is the one that scares the crap out of me. Nobody can account for what they don't see that they don't see. So it's almost like a phantom that's chasing me at all moments. I can feel it on my back.

Dishonest. It also points to something I brought up earlier, where you said a couple years back, you're like, wow, I have a superiority complex.

Yep.

Was that part of the shadow in which you speak?

Oh, yeah.

How did that unfold for you?

I was noticing how much it bothered me that people were questioning my authority, and I was a match to it over and over again. And it's this especially. It was like. It's a huge issue in America, I'll be honest with you. So, like, as a spiritual teacher, when you go to other places in the globe where there's a lot more respect essentially, for hierarchy, you don't have to. It doesn't feel like you're fighting people. Right. It's almost like you step off the airplane and they're, like, rolling out red carpets, and it's like, everything. It's almost the opposite form of scary. You could be like, you know what you need to do to turn your life around every morning? Hop on your left foot. And it would be, like, religiously, they'd be doing it. Not only that, they'd be like, telling you, oh, it's changed everything for me. And it's just placebo. So it's like the opposite issue. When you land in America, the attitude, especially more and more recently, is like, who the hell do you think you are telling me? And then what's worse than that is you got people who are like, you know, they. They do one ayahuasca journey. Or, like, they get interested in, like, reading things on. In books or on YouTube. And then it's like, oh, I'm a spiritual teacher, too. And, like, I don't agree with you on this. I'm like, who are you to disagree with me on that, honestly? But I was more and more in my career, I was watching myself get in these types of power struggles. So naturally I'm like, what is my deal with this man? And I started realizing that, like, I definitely wanted to be on top of that totem pole because of how terrifying it felt to me for anybody else to be on top of that totem pole. It didn't only relate to things like, you know, the information that I have. It related a lot to, you know, things like, look, I know that if I get behind the wheel of a car, I'm going to be able to drive better than anyone else. Even telling myself stories, you know, at that point, which are completely irrational things like, okay, let's put me in a position where I learn how to drive a race car. I'm going to be able to do it better than Jeff Gordon. And I'm watching myself have these types of thoughts. And I'm the type of person, when I have those types of thoughts, I'm disidentified enough to be like, what the fuck was that? Why do I need to tell myself that story? Because I know it's not accurate. I have this larger, objective perspective where I'm understanding that the ultimate truth in this universe is that because of the nature of our design and what we have intended, even for this life, we have intended vessels even for a physical body where it doesn't matter how much you train, you will never be better than somebody else. And that is something you intended. Now, I have that awareness enough to be like, I'm using this some way. So when I got track of that shadow, I essentially looked at the aspect of me that was doing that, right? And it was a protector who was like. It was all about trust. It was like, if I'm not the best at everything, I mean, anything that I could potentially do better than anyone, then it means that I'm ultimately vulnerable to them and unsafe, because it means at a certain point, you have to put your trust in somebody else. That never went well for me. So, you know, I was just, like, watching this as this unsafety strategy. And when I started caretaking the unsafety aspect, the desperate need to be in this position of superiority all the time started to wane. I got better at working with people who are in power struggles. I really dislike it still, but, you know, when it happens, I'm, like, much more attuned to the pain behind it. I'm much more able to see my own reflection, ironically, in the power struggle. The aspect of a person that's so terrified of authority that they're, like, trying to rip me down as fast as they can. So being attuned to that pain, I'm able to respond to it better than to just get in that sort of pissing contest.

When you're working with someone on stage and they come up, maybe they're trembling. I've even seen people crying. Maybe they're hysterical. Sometimes they're. They're literally wanting something different. They're wanting a different result. How do you meet someone who's in a completely dysregulated state, Right? And you could even say that this happens in relationship. It does, y'. All. It happens, like, sometimes, I think all human beings, depending on our level of, especially capital T trauma, but even long, prolonged lowercase T trauma, we get to this place where we don't even know how to regulate ourselves. And when somebody comes on stage with you like that, how do you. What kind of an attunement process do you go through where you can actually work with someone who's super dysregulated?

Intense levels of presence is really that simple. What I do is I slow all of the processes in my body way, way down.

Your heart rate.

My heart rate. Sort of. When that happens, it slows down. The way that the blood is flowing through your body, I slow down the ways that my cells are vibrating. Like, I bring everything so slow that they're not really conscious of it. But, you know, if I'm sort of right now, I'm excited, right? So you can feel that I'm kind of z. Like, if I was to put a sound to the way that I'm vibrating right now, it'd be like, right, I want to bring it down so low that I'm vibrating kind of. Or like way like lower, right and slower. That has an effect on the other person where it starts to down regulate them. Because of the. The property of entrainment, when you are able to, you know, very powerfully practice consciousness work to the point where you're embodied enough that you have a very strong vibration, you can start to use it consciously to impact and affect whatever you're around. So I'm using my own vibration to calm their vibration down through the lava and entrainment. And I'm essentially sending the message, regardless of what I'm saying, to the audience. It's difficult on stage because you have to entertain everyone in front of you at the same time as work with the person next to you. But, you know, even though I may be talking with the audience in a certain way, the message that I am sending to this person is, I have all day. You are not rushed. I will be here for as long as it takes. Our contract that you and I have is I am with you.

That's beautiful.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think as men, we can definitely learn how to practice that in a deeper way. Yeah.

Because men usually go to problem solving immediately. Yeah, sure.

I mean, I'm like, hey, babe, what's wrong? That's where I go. And I know that on some level there are times, though, I will give myself credit where I really, for me, it's breathing. So if I can breathe, inhale, fill my belly, exhale, slow, it really helps to settle the space. That's a huge part of it for me.

Men have an issue feeling their own emotions for a lot of reasons. I mean, it's not like society has been like, hey, little boy, let's figure out how to process your emotions. It's been like, don't have those. Right.

Good. Boys don't cry.

Yeah. So men do a real terrible job because of a lot of reasons that are not their fault at being with their emotions. And so when women have emotions around them because they don't want to feel their own, they want to immediately, you know, get it away. I want to make. Do whatever it takes to get the emotion away. And that resistance to their own emotions ironically causes the resistance to the female's emotions. And that is what causes this response of, let me get you out of this immediately. It's very different when a man does not have resistance to his own emotions and at the same time has the. The deep desire to remedy the Pain of other. It makes it so that he's grounded enough that there's no scatteredness in his perspective. He's not trying to rescue himself out of the situation so that he feels better. Right. But of course, the gaslight is, I'm trying to make you feel better. And because of it, he's able to attune to what would actually cause the improvement. That's a guy who solves problems very quickly and is also a guy who doesn't fall into this trap with women where, you know, the women kind of plant their feet and are like, I don't want you to solve the issue right now. I just want you to be with me. Like, if a woman pulls that, believe me, all women want their problem solved. But if a woman pulls that, it means you're not doing what's correct right now because you're not attuned right now, because you're making it about the way you feel. Feel right now. You're trying to solve me so you can solve you. That's what a woman's reacting to. So, yeah, a man learns how to feel his emotions in a very deep way. So he's not in that type of resistance. He's able to actually bring the solution that works for a woman. And sometimes that solution is, I want to understand you, because you were never understood. Wow.

I had a memory flash of my mom being carried out of the house on a stretcher. She was manic bipolar when I grew up. And so with Carrie, one of the things that I've been working on is my hypersensitivity to feminine emotion, to feminine criticism, specifically, because everything. Much like your mom, right, where she catastrophizes. Did you hear about this? My mom still to this day, I don't know if it's like a Sicilian guilt thing or what, but, like, she's constantly just focused on the negative. I love you, Mom. I love you with all my heart. What is that? For us that have dealt with a bipolar parent specifically, this relates to generational healing tenfold. How do I. How do us who have been raised in. In a bipolar mother environment start to really do the attunement process? That speaking as a man with a woman, that it's actually okay for us to be in this shit. It's okay to feel these things.

You have to unhook your perception that it's a threat to your survival. When you're young and you have a caregiver, specifically, who is in this type of a dynamic that registers as, I'm going to die. Because you depend on them. Your entire existence depends on something that is fundamentally unpredictable. Children can't live with that. It's absolute terror. And so what they learn to do very quickly is to take control of what is unpredictable and try to make it predictable. This is where you start to get into codependent behaviors to try to rescue mom away from how she feels so you can be okay. And then that just transfers to the adult relationship. But what's happening essentially is as an adult, when let's say, you get into a relationship with an adult female and that female exhibits emotions, it brings you right back to. To. And this means fill in the blank. And this means I'm unsafe. And this means I'm going to lose somebody I care about. And this means. It means all kinds of things it doesn't really mean in the present moment. So you have to unhook the association that you have with that state of emotion in order to be like, oh, you know, it's not about what it was about when my. When I was with my mother when I was younger. It's not about the fact that she's potentially going to kill herself. It's not about the fact that she's going to be gone and I'm going to be by myself. It's not about whatever it's about. Right. Could be different for each person.

It feels like this awareness in which you speak. It's almost like consciousness is sandpaper. Sometimes it's 40 grit, sometimes it's a thousand.

Yes.

But it's, it's. It's a frictional process. The understanding of how to actually be embodied consciousness.

Yes.

Does it feel like that for most people or are there some people who are born in their dharmas and I have so much friction? I always wonder about.

Yeah, some people do. Chosen to lies with more, much less friction. Yes.

Do you ever get jealous of those people?

Yes.

How do you deal with that jealousy?

It doesn't weigh me down every day because I understand why I chose what I chose. It's like. It's more like a funny thing I don't get. I don't think I get envy of people who are on that path to the degree that I really hate what I chose. It's just like sometimes when I'm really struggling, I'm like, why did I not come in as fill in the blank? You know? But yeah, I mean, the lack of being bogged down is that I understand what it is that I came down here to do, and I love doing it. These types of conversations, I don't know if you feel the same way, but, like, when I'm sitting here having these types of conversations, like the whole rest of the world doesn't exist. It's funny because we're talking about the rest of the world, but it's like, you know, the hours just start to condense, and I'm just in my energy, complete. I feel like all parts of me are here and in alignment. And because of that, I don't feel like I'm caused as much pain by the idea that I didn't, say, come into wonderful parents and open a pie shop somewhere.

In an interesting way. And I want to be very intentional about how I say this. So many people, I don't care if it's yourself or Zach Bush or many mentors that I've had, even people that I've done vision quests with, it seems like they've all had an intense vacuum of pain. And to quote Aristotle, nature hates a vacuum, so. So that vacuum wants to be filled. Do you connect with that line of thinking or line of awareness where the deeper the vacuum, the lower the roots touch hell, to quote Young, then the more the branches can actually reach heaven. When you pull the arrow back, you shoot farther. Do you connect with that at all?

I think it's an empowering thought. And there are certain principles within the universe which would point to that theory, but it's a potential. Otherwise there would be no suicide. Otherwise there would be nobody sitting in mental hospitals. Yeah, a lot of people don't recover from the types of trauma that they go through. And that's why I'm in this line of work. You know, if it was as simple as, like, oh, your roots touched hell, and so you're going to reach high.

No, it's a great platitude.

I think it inspires and helps people when they have touched levels of pain where it feels like you can't come back from it and you're permanently stained. I will say that the people that I know that have touched a level of suffering, they definitely have a greater capacity for relationship, but at the same time, they could completely mess relationships up and tend to exhibit patterns where they mess relationships up. But it's like, you know, if you've touched the level of pain where you're no longer afraid of those depths, it is much easier to stay with other people through the full range of their life experience rather than just bouncing out when it's like, ooh, that was a little deeper than I used to, you know.

Would you call it a mixture of Dharma or karma that it depends how people turn out to be. Let's say twins are born to a mother. One's an astronaut, one's a drug addict. Why the hell does that happen?

Oh, a lot of that is. A lot of that is life experience. It's not progress, intention.

But we have free will, so I don't believe in. I'm curious how you feel. Nothing's completely destined, of course.

Yeah. Well, that's part of what I'm saying. And not only that. It's very important for people to understand. Even with twins, no two twins had the same childhood. No two siblings in an environment ever had the same childhood. There are drastically different childhoods lived under the same roof. Again, that creates a parallel perceptual reality that's difficult for people to swallow. But we love to tell ourselves stories because we're not looking at the minutia stories like they're twins. They grew up at the same time under the same roof. They had the same life.

Yeah.

No, no, no. Subtle variations can cause one to go down the road of heroin and the other to go down the road of chasing success.

It's interesting because one of the things you mentioned is that this skill of oration is in your family, being able to speak like you're a verbally fluent woman. Like, you. You got it. Like, some people have the gift of gab, some don't. And then, yeah, we can cultivate that. Personally, I don't recommend Toastmasters. They click the thing that makes you, like, paralyzed. I don't enjoy that mode of training. But the more you do it, the better you get. As long as your intention is pure in the way you do it. The inherited piece that you got, though, is really cool. I wonder if you can go into that, because your skill of oration and being able to be on stage and, you know, be comfortable and confident in yourself, that was inborn. That wasn't something that you own. Always, always, always had to make for yourself.

No. And what's funny about it is. So I was a model for a while, right? And I got a lot of offers when I was a model to do, like, movies and things like that. And I always turned the opportunities down because I was like, I don't want to talk. Like, I can walk on a Runway. I don't want to talk. I was super embarrassed about it. Which is so funny because, like, you know, the first time in this career I ever stood up on a stage, it was like I never had to practice. I could just. Just talk to an audience and I honestly, from day one felt like if I was in front of an audience of 900 people, I was having an individual conversation with each one of those people. It was so easy. Yeah. And I mean, I mean that skill of oration comes through my father's line. And essentially, if you want to sum it up, I'm related to almost every US President throughout history. It kind of scares me that they're all related to each other, by the way.

But wait, how are they related to each other?

Because the vast. By when I mean the vast majority, I mean by far and away, the vast majority of them are the byproduct of individual pilgrims who came to this country.

So 1776, Plymouth Rock. And then they're all related. All US presidents are related.

Yeah.

Can you go into that?

Well, I would. I don't know how to go into that. It's just like terrifying. I mean, when you look through my genealogical chart, it's like fifth cousin, eighth cousin, third cousin, fifth cousin. Like every single. It's like so many of them. I'm not kidding you, it's like 20 plus. It's so many that it's like, what the hell is going on here? My father comes from this intensely political line of just like leaders. And all of them, oration was the way that they lived their life. Right. So on the one hand we've got, remember the whale story, we've got that inheritance of the terror, but we've also got this inheritance of these leadership qualities, one of which is the skill for oration. And not just the gift of gab, the gift of having a very powerful voice. Right. Not something that's very common for women.

I wonder if that is something that is. Because for so long. And it's easy for me to say this, but I don't actually know how it felt. For so long there has been a shadow of patriarchy. Even that word's interesting, patriarchy. Because I feel like on an ancestral plane I'm paying for the sins of my fathers and grandfathers in many ways, even in my own relationship. Right. And it's not to. To put down my partner, I love you. And I think all of us are just experiencing things right in the time that we were born. And so I wonder how you could explain that to people that may not know how this actually unfolds on a practical ground based level that we are truly paying for the sins that of the darker side of the patriarchy. And by the way, feminism has its shadow as well, for sure, which I think we feel that now and we've done many episodes of many different people on this. But can you please explain that in the best way you can, the dark side of the patriarchy and how we can actually be aware of that and do something different, play a different game.

The dark side of patriarchy is essentially any masculine quality taken to its against others rather than for others, extreme. So let's take control. Control is an element of masculine. Right. I think it should help viewers first of all to say that you can actually divide every single thing in existence into masculine or feminine, except for things like neutrality, which by themselves define neither. But okay, so if we take everything in existence, every polarity, and divide it into either masculine or feminine.

Right.

We're dealing with so many things that we. It's very difficult to whittle them down. So I'm going to have to cherry pick here. So control is something which would fall into the masculine side of the scale. Control over the environment is what enabled us to become so incredibly powerful, did it not? Control is what enabled us to, say, go into environments that we are not innately, biologically designed to go into. And yet, oh, look, I've taken control of the environment enough to build a shelter, control of the environment enough to find food that I can actually eat here. Control of the environment enough to build tools. And now we've got this incredibly complex society. That's a fundamental element of masculinity, right? But the shadow aspect of that, when it starts to go towards the against others extreme, you know, things like control lead to. It doesn't matter what's in the best interest of the female that I've got next to me, I'm going to take control over her as well. Doesn't matter whether it hurts or not. So what we really need to see when it comes to the problems with the patriarchy and the sort of sins of the father, is any of those masculine traits which themselves have been exacted upon the rest of life on earth, whether it's their sons or their daughters or their wives or other animals or the environment itself, that does not account for the best interests of other. So we could. I want to make it the simple. Why? Because a man who is able to practice taking other as a part of the self, his masculine traits are not a problem. In fact, the things around him surrender to his guardianship. Don't you think it's pretty?

I love it. Yeah, I've touched that at times. But I would love to learn how to embody that state of being wholeheartedly. I think all men would And I think all women would want their men to, or however y' all want to relate, like whoever holds the masculine pole. Right. So I wonder, the only women who.

Would say no to that are women who have been so damaged by masculinity, they don't even want to put themselves in a position to have to trust to that degree.

And do you believe that part that wound feeds the shadow of feminine, of feminism? Yes, in general.

Oh, man. I spend most of my. My time right now against that shadow, honestly, because I'm in a time period where we're experiencing many of the benefits of the feminist movement, and yet we're running smack dab into many of the shadows of the feminist movement. And so a lot of my job in my position is to speak to those things. And we are in a crisis. It is tragic to see what women have done with themselves and are continuing to do with themselves because of the reactivity to the wounds that they've experienced with the masculine.

How do you see that playing out?

Men are getting killed. I mean, not even physically killed. You know what I mean? I'm almost like using a metaphor, but it's. There's no other way to put it. We are literally eradicating men. And what's really interesting, if you want to know, is that I'm also watching this correspond with what science is going to turn over pretty soon, which is that male children are going to become more rare and more rare and more rare because the wounds that feminine has experienced with the masculine have gotten to the point where there's a desire for them not to exist. Now when women got to the point, right now we're in a very scary point right now where most women are realizing that they're doing everything. The question is, where do men fit in? And a lot of women are going to nowhere. So I'm like, watching us go down this road and be. I feel more than panicked about it, you know, obviously more than panicked about it, because what our lives truly look like without men. More than panicked about it because I have a son myself. More than panicked about it because I see the amount of pain that men are going to be in because they're getting edged out of having a place within society and within lives of women in relationships.

It seems like in both shadow aspects, there. There gets to be this kneeling at the altar of humility and be like, here's our wounds together. Yeah, here's my wound, here's yours, and here's our collective, mutual, shared wounds. Instead of, you did this to me on an Unconscious level, therefore I shot my heart, or I don't think you're safe, or. And there's. There's real rational fears around that. I get that. But really what I feel like is being called forth here, and I'm curious how you feel is true warriors, like, not people that want to kill each other, but a real warrior that actually, like Sparta, opens his heart or opens her heart. That is the most vulnerable, deathlike warrior in the world.

Yes, I agree. It's just that female warriors look very different than male warriors.

How do they look?

They look at face value, much more vulnerable because they're. But it's just because they're a very different element. You know, a female warrior is fully in wisdom, energy, fully in openness, fully in the capacity to understand. She's taking in information as a motive, you know, establishing personal safety, if we want to put it that way. She's feeding that information directly to the man is more proactive.

He's looking for the environment to be safe, but he does it in like a second. She feels maybe the threat of the environment and life every half second. So it's his job. I've heard you speak about this with containment, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So if. And this is. This is a bit of a juxtaposition. And I felt this in my life many times. Teal.

Okay.

If I don't have a space in the place, I'm not inspired to provide containment if I don't get a space to show up in because of the darker side of. You could call it feminism or just, you know, women. These terms are really interesting because I want to say this is not always like 100% man and woman. We have these energies inside of us, right? That's why there's an upside down triangle in our logo. Because I am so fascinated by feminine energy. It has been the bane of my existence. And I also need it. I'm like, how do I do it all? You know? So what do you make of this containment piece? Because, gosh, I really do. I genuinely, genuinely want to provide containment. I really do, from my purest place in my heart.

Not just that, you must, in order to be in alignment as a man.

I must. But how can men and women work together so that she actually gives him the spaciousness to provide that containment?

He needs to demonstrate the capacity to understand her enough to do the correct thing for her. He has to demonstrate. I see. I get it. I'm taking action in your best interests. He essentially has to make trust his holy grail. That's Number one, two, she has got to allow herself to be vulnerable enough to be inside that container. That is scary. It's like an emotional version of, you know, that falling. I don't know. It's like an exercise they did in the 80s a lot where they're like, trust fall. The trust fall. Yeah, it's like an emotional version of the trust fall.

Shit sucks for women.

Oh, yeah, it really sucks. You're putting yourself in somebody's hands.

It's almost. I mean, you know, with respect, it's almost like in sex, the woman is penetrated. The. The relaxing that she has to go through. It's the same thing with containment in many different ways. I mean, do you see a similarity in that?

Yes. Hell, yeah. It's a huge parallel.

I think us as men, we just don't get it. So we're trying to. We're trying to understand it. But the feminine. And I'm saying this with, like, let's say in a relationship where the man is predominantly polarity. Wise, masculine, and there's polarity for feminine with the. With the female. I know they express in different ways, but, gosh, in that dynamic, if there has been trauma and wounding that brought them together, I know that's my case. It's really this understanding that we see what we see. But there's lots of stuff that we don't see as to why I can't provide containment and why she can't create the place for me to actually provide that containment.

Yeah, but that's the mastery of the tango. That dance you're describing right now is the mastery of the dance.

So how do we dance?

We get as conscious as possible about that dance. I mean.

Yeah, we don't step on toes.

What I would say for somebody. I mean, obviously I would hope that everybody would be into this, but, I mean, if you're on the path of consciousness, which there's no way in hell anybody's listening to your stuff that isn't on this train.

No, we're here.

If you guys are here for it, then you got to sign up with somebody who's also signed up for this. There's no way that you can really master the tango with somebody who's like, yeah, I just kind of, like, want to dance, but, like, not really try that hard. Like, no, you got to be with somebody who's like, yeah, yeah, I'm showing up for this. I actually understand that that growth is a big part of the game here. And that I'm gonna have to communicate. This is gonna have to be A back and forth. And we're not gonna do it perfectly. And when we don't do it perfectly, I'm not gonna automatically make it mean that I'm just gonna give up because I'd rather be with something more simple is if their grass is greener on the other side. Of course, in this digital age of dating apps, it's very easy to just become paralyzed because there's a perception that there's 5,000 people out there.

Holy shit. We're in the age of choice. There's so much choice. I even heard some stats that our grandparents would see 100 times less things than we see now.

Oh, yeah. And we're not designed for this.

The input on the limbic system and how the prefrontal cortex works and just our neurology literally can't keep up with how much input we're experiencing. And I wonder how that translates to relational dynamics as well.

Oh, it translates to everything. We've done this with everything. This is the problem with humanity. We are able to create above and beyond our capacity to evolve, to meet the criteria with which we ourselves created. So we've done this with the food system. That's probably the best way to look at this first before we transfer over to the relationship sector. Right.

Okay.

Okay. We're wandering around as hunter gatherers, foragers. Right. In that type of environment, we would be really drawn towards sweet things. Right. We'd be drawn towards fats. We'd be drawn towards sweets. We'd be drawn towards carbs. We'd be drawn towards anything that gives ourselves energy. Honey, which would have been difficult to find.

Yeah.

Okay. So biologically, we are hardwired to only be able to deal with so much of that, but because that's what we prefer. Makes sense to prefer that because we're going to go, you know, around, picking through the wilderness and, like, you know, so naturally, when we want to take control over the environment, we want those types of things. We want it to taste like the fat. We want it to taste like the sugars. Well, now we've created a food system where what we're producing, our body can't deal with. We have not biologically evolved to the very food system which we ourselves have created specifically for our own taste buds. Okay, well, we're doing this with everything, whether it's creating concrete cities we were never meant to live in or whether it's, let's say, these dating apps. We are not designed to take in that many partners or potential partners. We're not designed to evaluate that many social connections. Our brain has a very difficult time understanding the difference between what's real and what is seen on a screen. Also, the reality is we might be filming somebody and they're sitting in their apartment for an entire week straight, but in their head they've met 100 people because of the way that they've interacted with them online.

Oh shit.

We're becoming more and more and more and more and more and more isolated, which is also something we're not designed for. We are designed for contact comfort and we are losing contact comfort. I mean, you and I could do our own, like a whole show on just this, you know, but we're. Again, it's like our technology has pushed us above and beyond what we can handle biologically. And I mean even we were even going there with the news, you know, as a species, we're only able to deal with so many threats. If you're reading the threats that exist in every single country and identifying with like 70 threats at a time, the nervous system can't actually handle that. There's a complete shutdown. So we are not, we're not creating anything that is conducive to human health. I mean, it doesn't take me, I don't even need to tell you that. I mean, we're not doing well.

So how does the watering down of our nutrients and our food system and subsequently the watering down of human relationships impact consciousness?

Well, whenever the temporal aspect is out of alignment with the non physical aspect, a person can't maintain enough energy to progress at the rate where they are capable of progressing. I mean, it's very difficult. I mean the problem is really in the connection between the temporal and the non physical. Right. I think it's easy to see this with things like fluoride. Right. I don't know if you were around back when I was in school, but they used to, I don't know if you remember this, they used to take low cops. Exactly. They would come in with these like bubblegum tasting fluoride. Yeah, it's terrible. Well, okay. It just so happens that that particular, you know, compound disconnects the capacity for non physical information to come through the brain. Now we can go down the road of, you know, conspiracy theory or we can just back up and say, who cares whether we're personalizing it in that way. What we're doing is ingesting something which is causing there to be a difficulty in that connection between non physical and physical. Well, that's an issue because so much of what we are meant to do here involves information that's at a non physical level. Whether it's pre birth intention or the capacity to tap into information that's beyond the senses or the capacity to completely reset. Or I could go down a whole long list. We are doing all kinds of things with our food system, our water system, the way we have relationships, technology that is making us more and more and more and more profoundly disconnected.

It's like the. It's the pain of our time. Our ancestors had their own pain. Like we have air conditioning and we're on podcast and it's reaching all these people, people in the world. Like that's. Our ancestors would have dreamed of what we have. But their pain was more, if you want to look at Maslow's lower level, just survival. Right. That was their deep pain. And I'm not, you know, I'm not taking away that that still exists for many people in the world. It's not like you and I here in Austin are the only people in the world. There's many people in the world. But the pain of our time is. It's so sinister and I think it's so deep and it's so unconscious behind the scenes. It's easy to survive when you have to get food, you know, that's your struggle. When we don't know what our struggle is, it's almost impossible to heal it.

Yeah, you see this with emotional neglect. And we can almost relate that back to what we're dealing with right now in this conversation we're having. But with emotional neglect, which happens rampantly in wealthy families. On the surface, a wealthy family has provided everything physically that a child could want. So the attitude is, why are you so messed up? The answer is that person is in a complete desert emotionally. And the needs that are being met in sub Saharan Africa are not being met in that home. And they are needs nonetheless. Right. So most people who are growing up in these affluent families have no idea why they are so messed up, because they don't know what they're missing. In the same way that if we have grown up only eating rice and all of a sudden all of us are getting unhealthy, we're like, what are we missing? We don't know until we see it. And that is definitely something that applies to a lot of the pains which we ourselves are experiencing. We are normalized to certain traumas. We have no awareness of what we actually need. Some things which our ancestors did have that we don't have. And that's a big reason why we're suffering. Our disconnection with the Earth is a big one of those.

What do you think our ancestors had.

That we don't have connection with the earth that they lived on?

Is that the foundation of all?

I don't think it's the foundation of all, but I think it's probably the major one. At no point in history was it an option or a luxury that our ancestors had to be out of attunement with the environment that they lived in. They had to understand it, they had to be connected to it. They had to be able to perceive it. They had to be in some kind of a symbiotic relationship with it. Now it's like, meh. I mean, how many people even look at the weather report? Do you understand what our ancestors were doing? They're like, wait, wait, wait, you didn't understand. You didn't even.

Like, there's rain coming. Yeah, we have to prepare.

Yeah. I mean, look at what's happening in Southern California right now. I mean, we live with this mentality that our ancestors couldn't have of like, oh, it's just the environment. Somebody's gonna take care of it. Well, guess what, you just lost your house. I mean, they were living much more in that reality every day. And what it created was this profound connectedness with the environment that they live in. That feeling of connectedness with nature itself does more for even our biological organism than most people have any awareness of. Which is one reason why I feel like it's so important for us to preserve these natural places where people can actually go out into them and feel what it is to put their feet on the earth and, you know, raise children to have a sensitivity to, you know, this earth that they are so incredibly connected to and that they generate from.

Ultimately, I think at first audible, somebody might say, well, of course, Teal. But are they actually doing it? I think knowing and doing are very separate. So someone knows that nature, literally on a cellular level, can heal you, because that's what our ancestors did for millennia. Then why do you think we make up excuses not to connect with nature? Like, what's the story that we're telling ourselves there about why we can or why we shouldn't?

We're too busy. It's not shouldn't. It's just everybody's too busy. It's just priorities. We prioritize different things. You know, there are people here who really prioritize their connection to nature and they chase it their whole lives. I grew up with two to such parents. They decided very early that the most important thing for them was nature. And so they raised us in the middle of effing nowhere. Okay. And I resented it.

Where's the middle of effing nowhere?

In the middle of effing nowhere is, like, in between the Idaho and the Utah border. Like, literally in the middle of the wilderness.

How far to, like, the store? Like, 30 minutes, 45 minutes by car.

The closest store was about 42 minutes or so.

Okay, so you had a lot of solitude out there.

That's an understatement of the century. There were. There were weeks that went by where we didn't see a single soul, and there was no way to communicate. We had no electricity, so there was no phone. All there was was a handheld radio, which belonged to the government. Right. Because they were forest rangers. So the most exciting thing in the universe was hearing somebody that drove down that driveway. They would just stop in. It was like in the old days. Oh, look, the neighbors come to visit. There was no neighbors. It was, like, usually another forest ranger, they would drive in or a car that got lost. Oh, my gosh. Right. So I'm telling you that this importance of connecting with the nature, being somebody who is greatly damaged by the level of isolation that was created in me by virtue of my parents having made that decision. I should be the person who's sitting in front of you being like, no, it's much more important to be in connection with people. I'm literally telling you that we must be in connection with nature. It is not a joke.

Yeah, there's radical. It's almost like a missing nutrient of our species right now so badly. It's a missing ingredient. But then there's also the challenge you went through. And I'm just thinking about this in real time with you. You had all these crazy. I mean, they're not crazy, but to us, they might seem crazy. You had all these gifts coming online. You're young. You're out there in the middle of nowhere. How did you even begin to be at peace with those in this lifelong journey of having, you know, you can see people's energies. Have you been seeing my colors, by the way? Have you been seeing anything with me at all?

Yeah, like. Like. But that. That's always the case when I'm interacting with people.

That's amazing. And it never even now. Can you juxtapose now to back then when you first started to see energies and see things?

I was. I was born this way, so I didn't start at any point. I was born.

So it's Just always been there.

Yeah, it's like. It's like at a natural point where a child shuts down, you know, their capacity to be seeing all this kind of stuff. Or I. It's not even like. It's not even like a shutdown. A child progressively plugs more and more and more into this matrix for the sake of becoming a part of this and using it as an expansion and learning environment. And I never plugged in fully. I was not able to do so. So the natural process of tuning out all of this multidimensional information never occurred. I will tell you that it's a lot easier when you've got those types of things going on to live in nature than it is to be, you know, living in nature.

It's almost like your life is like a micro dose.

It is.

No, it is a natural microdose all the time.

Well, that's the thing. So, like, most people only grasp what I'm seeing normally when they are taking huge amounts of dmt, because I'm seeing fractals everywhere. Like there are fractals everywhere in. There is no solid object. There's no space between objects. It's just energy fields bleeding into one another. And I see that way 24 hours a day. I don't understand how other people see, which is.

Do you feel like that's why maybe sometimes people can't understand what you're saying or what you're teaching because they just don't have the same lens?

I hope that's not the case because I need people to. I need to be able to find a way to get people to. To understand what it is that I'm saying. I do think that it tends to be the more extreme views of mine that people don't understand because of what I'm able to see that other people are not able to see.

I think they're the most needed. I think contrast is so needed because it creates movement.

Well, people struggle with that type of thing. They're not making connections that I'm making. And that is something that, you know, when I've been going around the world right now saying that we have no option for our survival but to master relationship and most people can. Cannot follow the connections that I've just made.

Well, it's an easy connection. We. Well, for you, we have relations. Well, for all of us here with us, this is why y' all need to share this podcast right now. Because if we master or. Or in mastery from a. From a intentional place of mastering self, then we can master relationship Then we can raise children and we can do it in this beautiful conscious way where it's not pie in the sky, it's real, it's practical, it's right here. It's here for us right now. But yet there's this multidimensional aspect which you mentioned, that we inherit things. We get stuck with luggage we don't want to carry. It's fucked. It sucks sometimes. How would you describe. Well, I was going to ask you. How would you describe this in a simplistic way? It ain't simple. Multidimensional awareness, not simple. But you mentioned that when you were out there in nature. So for people that don't know this concept of multidimensionality, what even is that? It's the place where you see things that others don't. But how do we understand what it is if we have never even heard of it?

I feel like a scientist could probably explain this better than I can, but we live in a universe where there are multiple dimensional realities. There are different laws that applies to each level of reality. And so just to make this make really simple sense for us here, in one dimension, we perceive time, right? In another dimension, time does not exist whatsoever. And so therefore neither does space and neither does travel. It's almost like in those dimensional fields, what we perceive as going from point A to point B would be as simple as tuning, like a car radio dial frequency into another frequency. And because we have switched that frequency, we are there. There's no journeying, right? So in these different dimensional aspects of this one universe, there are different rules and truths that apply. When we are tapping into the multidimensional universe, we have to all of a sudden expand ourself to be able to hold vast amounts of dichotomy, vast amounts of contradictory truths that are simultaneously true. Something like here in the physical, there is death. In other dimensional realities, there's no death at all. Death does not occur. It is literally just a recycling of energy. So you didn't lose anything. Does that help somebody when they've just lost a child? No, no, don't even say it. It's a truth at another dimensional level. So really, the truth you're perceiving depends upon which level of dimensional reality you are tuned into at a given moment.

See, this is where I take. I actually take offense where there's a lot of spiritual teachers out there that just teach only that there's one bane of existence and this is it. And it's one place and there's only one source which may be True, actually. And it feels like it is more and more and more every day. But yet if God wants to experience God's self or the Creator wants to experience the creator self in unlimited ways, then there would need to be duality. So yes, it's all great to say there's a singularity and we all come from one. And that's true. But that doesn't practically relate to this 3D reality and experience. It just doesn't.

Well, just like you, I have a problem with negation. And the issue that you're having, if you want to put a word with it, is spiritual teachers who use higher dimensional information to negate lower dimensional information. And even the use of the word higher versus lower creates a construct in our mind where one is better than the other.

Yes, it's all one, brother. I'm like, what?

So rather than using higher and lower, let's use objective, More or less objective. Right. When I'm using the word like a higher dimensional reality, it accounts for more of the story of the lower dimensions. However, it doesn't directly reflect it. So I've got an issue with. And so do you spiritual teachers who use say 11th dimensional information. Information like, you know, pain is a construct. Pain is primarily about beliefs. Are they right? Actually they are. But when you use that to negate the reality that somebody has gone through in the, in a 3D type of trauma experience, for example, it's damaging and it's negating and it's avoidance and it's resistance and there's all kinds of issues with it. So if you're tuned in at all to whether somebody is in an integrative mode or not, immediately when they start to teach from that negating space, you're going to feel the resistance in them and it's going to feel like inside your internal system, it's going to feel like a no cheese grater rub.

That's what I feel. Yeah. And in a way I also can see that it really disrespects and kind of slaps people in the face that are struggling. It's a way to create a holier than thou system where if everything's all one and they teach from the 11th dimension, well, that dimensionality and the laws and from that dimensionality don't apply to here in the same way they do there. That's what people miss so much.

Me too. You're like, literally you're taking me. You're just like preaching to the choir at a level that this is like, this is one of my biggest problems.

In My field is this something that comes up in crowds. Oh my. Someone will stand and be like Teal. It's all one. You don't understand. It's all one.

I feel like I spend my whole life trying to undo what other spiritual teachers do. And it drives me crazy because I hate when we are at odds. I actually hate it. People are oftentimes they don't understand me in this way. I'm going to tell you how I'm majorly misunderstood. Right. I hate confusing people. My favorite thing in the world is when I've got some kind of congruence with other spiritual teachers so that the people who are coming into this vulnerable and learning don't feel like everybody else feels in the world right now, which is like this person says the exact opposite of this person. How do I decide? Yeah, guess what? You don't have the thousands of years worth that somebody like me has put into this. You don't have it. So it's a horrible position to be in. I very much appreciate that. I can't stand it when we disagree. But yeah, most of my job, a large majority of my job, is undoing other spiritual teachers teachings.

Yeah. Wow. Okay. One thing that has come up time and time again in this podcast has been something that I learned from a mentor. And I know that this will probably ruffle some feathers, but I want to get your take on it.

Okay.

And I also know from your teachings and your work that you don't identify with religion because religion is divisional in nature. Is that still true for you in the same way?

Yeah. I mean, like there's obviously in any religion you can find these grains of absolute truth and whatever it is. But as a whole, religions were created for controlling people. They were used by individuals in charge to try to feed a narrative that achieved an aim that they were looking for. Is it for the people? No. It's a giant mess of things that help people and things that deeply harm them. So I've got issues with it. I would. I think it's a much more in alignment track to bring people towards this reality where each person realizes that they themselves have access to what we've been calling the divine. Not only that, they themselves are a manifestation of that very energy which they've been trying to go to a priest to access and things like that.

Yeah.

You know, we, we are much more powerful as a species when we become essentially the vessel for the thing which we've been going to religions for. And we'd be wasting a lot less money. Right. We'd Be putting it in better places, I think, if we weren't feeding it into building these ginormous buildings at the risk of taxing everybody in society, which was the story for so many thousands of years.

In Texas, the mega churches are next fucking level. I mean, they're like football stadiums with, like, chalices flying on the ceiling. It's. It's wild out here in Texas. The reason I brought that up is because I wanted to get your take on this phrase, and it's something that I hold dear, because like you said, in every religion, there's nuggets of wisdom. There's always good there. And it's Isaiah 45. 7, and it's from King James version. I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things.

Love it. Absolutely love it.

What do you make of that? Because I think it really overshadows a lot of the spiritual teachings from the 11th dimension.

It's perfection because it recognizes the truth that what we've been calling source, what we've been calling God or collective consciousness is the same thing. We're using different words to describe the amalgamation of all energy and consciousness that exists, contains within it all potentials. And it has reached the point where it recognizes that within itself. So it really highlights the concept of free will. If we have all of these potentials within ourselves and we also have free will, then we get to choose what it is we create, whether it's a heaven or a hell.

I've actually read and heard from multiple sources that that portion was cut out in the later versions. Of course it was cut out, because who wants to believe that God is the devil and devil is the God?

And that's the greatest teaching of all.

How could you possibly believe in something where you'd be burned in hell forever, yet the very thing that creates the all, creates the dark and the light at the same time. That's pretty fucking confronting.

It's confronting, and it's accurate, and it's true. And people absolutely have the capacity to expand wide enough to hold that truth. And they must. They must. Otherwise they will never be able to contain this aspect of themselves.

I feel like in every part of this podcast, we've touched on this, this core essence of not just doing the inner work, but actually having the courage to look in the mirror and be like, wow, I'm dark and I'm light.

Yep.

And see it all.

Yes.

In every piece of what you've shared, there's this crux. And it's like, okay, well, you have to actually choose to. You get to choose to look in the mirror if you want to use NLP on that.

Yeah.

Looking in the mirror, I think, can be really helpful when having a guide because the very thing that scares me and all of us, I think at times is am I good enough to do it? Do I have enough? Do I have what it takes? Do I have enough to lead the podcast? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's all these stories all the time. And this is why I love your program. So thank you so much for sharing the program with us. You gave us a special price, which is amazing. Like you guys, I don't go into content that much online unless it's mine. I'm going into your content. The link is joshtrand.com forward/teal. It's 30% off for this Ancestral healing course, and it is the bomb. I don't just say that like your team really did a good job. There's modules, there's handouts. It's an actual way to get guidance and courage to look in the mirror.

Thank you.

And I think that that's what we really need right now. We need trusted guidance. And I think you've really demonstrated. I just want to acknowledge you for demonstrating that you are a guide. Compared to so many people that if, like, let's say they've been in real estate and they made a billion dollars and now they're a spiritual teacher. Yeah, yeah, that shit's rampant. Yours is very unique. And I wonder, you know, as we wind down, it's like, how do you see the rest of your time on Earth unfolding? I know that's a bomb drop question, but if you had to go three, five, 10 years, if you were to hold a magic wand in your hand, what would be the ultimate change you'd want to produce in the earth and human consciousness?

I mean, if I could have anything, it's that I was able to change humankind's mind enough that they were able to reverse a lot of these damaging processes and start to create, in whatever field is their mastery, the ultimate change within that specific field. I see that as a greater change than anything that I could do individually. Like, if I'm able to change the mind of parents to the point where they parent differently, then I've changed the next generation. If I'm able to change the mind of engineering years, we've changed the structure of society that they're building. So I see a lot of the ideas that I'm offering as laying the foundation for the change that individuals who are listening to this content will be the ones to exact upon this Earth. And that's the one thing that I think inspires me the very most. But what you're going to see from me in the future is more of what you do see. Now. I'm a female, ultimately, first and foremost, as a teacher, which is a very rare thing on this earth. And what it means is I'm highly responsive. Rather than having this vision which I want to exact upon the Earth, I am playing a very profound game with whatever arises. So I will be teaching to whatever humanity shows me.

And as you go on this path, do you feel the openness towards intimate relationship, or are you so deeply called to your work that there's no space for it?

No, there's a lot of openness towards intimate relationship. It's just that what's a match to me is very rare.

Where do you think this person is if you had to pontificate? Guess.

I'm not entirely sure. It's just one. I actually don't know where this person is that I would be looking for. Let's say, if I'm going for the first member of this group, maybe in an old age home or in a nursing home somewhere. Why do I say that? Because for me, specifically in my career, I need a nurturer on a physical level, which is an unusual trait for somebody who is in the masculine energy, unless they are essentially stepping into caretaker dom status. But, yeah, I need somebody who's able to provide containment in a primarily nurturing way in order to thrive here. Because where I struggle and where there's a big opening for a man in relationship is in the area of the temporal world. I struggle with the temporal world immensely.

What's that biggest part of that struggle for you?

Navigating physical life, whether it's, you know, fixing this or driving here or, you know, arranging that, it's like the sort of practical, tangible elements of life I find quite difficult.

Yeah.

And, you know, I could go down the road of trying to practice that. But, like, let's get real here. You've got me in front of you. Where do you want me to go? Do you want me to channel my energies first and foremost towards my excellence here, which is to bring in more and more and more of this information and have somebody else handle those things? Or would you rather me just be like, no, it's really important to do those things? And so, you know, Teal Swan learns how to get from point A to point B on Earth calendar. Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm saying. So I've gotten to the point where I've really. I've. You know, it's interesting because a lot of this process of becoming more and more aware, it's like sometimes you choose your shadows. You're like, you know what? I'm actually not going to channel my energies towards working on that. I'm going to allow myself to be skewed in this way and accommodate for that, that, you know, element of being skewed. And this is especially the case when I see people who are here for a specific mastery, whether it's like surgery or, you know, whatever it is. It's like you almost have to accommodate for and accept the skewed nature of your being for the sake of your mastery. And I definitely have chosen that. I have gotten to a point where I am not going to try to master a lot of the elements of this temporal world. Instead, I'm going to bring people in where I have to lay back into them and trust them with those elements of my life so that I can do more and more and more of this as much as I can before I die.

You're doing the trust fall?

I'm doing the trust fall.

Yeah. That's beautiful. I've so enjoyed our time together. This has been magical. And that word gets thrown around. This was fucking great.

I love that.

I know people are gonna feel this on such a deep level. You know, we explored multidimensional healing, ancestral healing, the fact that moms can't do it all and pretend like they are. There's been a lot of really cool cul de sacs that we've gone into. But I wonder, you know, with everything that we've touched on and some things we've gone very deep into, what do you feel needs to be said? What else needs to be said?

I feel like what needs to be said is that right now it's very tempting, especially for people who are part of the younger generations. It's very tempting to look at this world and feel like it's so beyond your personal power to do anything about this world. And it is very important that people remember that what you have opted into by coming into this time space reality is a consensus reality. You came here to make this a collective painting. Never forget the amount of impact your paintbrush has on the overall picture that we are painting here. I would want people to understand that if they want to change, they have to actually put effort towards creating that change. Otherwise, this picture that we call life on Earth will not Change.

Thank you. Yeah. As we say goodbye, I just want to from my heart say how great this has been for me and how fun it is. And this is my favorite question in the world that I'm about to ask you.

Okay, okay.

No pressure, no pressure. And I ask every guest this because, you know, on. On the mic flag, it's wellness and wisdom. And this is something that I personally, publicly have been doing my best to embody. You know, the bloody parts, the fun parts, the crunchy stuff, you know, for you, and especially at this stage of your life and being a mother and teaching people and the load that that is for you and practicing the trust fall and everything we've discussed, I believe that in order to be well or have true well being, we actually have to be in the mastery process of embodying wisdom. Because unless I embody wisdom and do my best to do that, then I'm probably going to miss out on a lot of intelligence that would allow me to live well. And I wonder for you, how would you define wellness? You know, what is. What does wellness mean To Teal Swan?

Wellness for me means alignment. Alignment between the physical, the emotional, the mental, and the spiritual. It's like when they're all on the same page. Of course, I'd say this as a teacher of integration. When they're all on the same page, heading in the same direction together, they're pulling forth a stream of energy that is so strong that all of them are being fed with that energy and are therefore put in its proper state. And when something is in alignment to that degree and put in its proper state to that degree, there is an actualization of potential. Is that an okay enough definition?

I think that's what we all want, right? The actualizing the reality that we're living that we know is possible. It's like we've heard this, like, can we all create the beautiful world we know is possible? It's like, well, starts with you.

Yeah, yeah.

Doesn't start out there. So, Teal, thank you for being here. It's been so enjoyable. Really appreciate you.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah. Okay, you guys make sure you share this. If you don't share this, then that's your own choice. I'm not here to tell you what to do, but this is worth sharing because you've felt something from this. I know you have. Because I have felt so much here. And if you have gratitude for this, if you've learned something from this, please share it with a friend. Share it with a family member who you love. Who you care about. And until we wish you love and wellness again on another episode, maybe in a different dimension, probably will be here. Teal and I are wishing you love and wellness. We'll talk to you soon. Hey, don't go anywhere. Now that you're here, let me say thank you for being a part of this podcast. Click any of the buttons on this screen here, or here or anywhere, because these are specifically matched episodes that you'll really love based on what you just saw. Just tap one of these buttons on the screen, and while you're at it, subscribe to the podcast.