The Hidden Reason You Can’t Heal (IFS Explained)

If we get triggered, these protectors are doing the talking, they're doing the battling. They're little inner people, little inner personalities who are stuck in these protector roles. They don't care about the impact to your body, to your relationships. They just think they've got to get you away from those feelings right now or you're going to die.

Dr. Richard Schwartz is a family therapist, creator of the internal family systems branch of therapy, and author of no Bad Parts. When you say there's no bad parts, what do you mean by that exactly?

That we all are born with these subpersonalities I came to call parts that are all valuable. They all have different roles to help us in our lives. But for most of us, they get frozen in time during the trauma. They're forced out of their naturally valuable states into roles that can even destroy your life. The step that ifs takes is to go to these parts and embrace them and listen to them and help them as you would, as if they were your kids, because you see them as suffering beings rather than just random thoughts and emotions.

This is grounded in science, but it's deeply spiritual. How is it much, much different than just inner child work? What exactly are parts and what is parts work?

So parts are equated to subpersonalities is another name for them. And my belief now that's been panned out over 40 years of doing this, is that we're all multiple personalities. Not in the sense that we have that disorder, but that we all are born with these sub personalities. I came to 12 parts that are all valuable. They all have different roles to help us in our lives and talents. And if you've made it through life without any trauma or any what are called attachment injuries, they would just be in harmony inside of you, helping you and thrive, really. But for most of us, we've had a lot of trauma. And so when that happens, they're forced out of their naturally valuable states into roles that can interfere in your life or can even destroy your life. And that's partly because they get frozen in time during the trauma. And they also take in all the feelings and beliefs, the emotions that come with the trauma. So these we call burdens. And once they get burdened with these extreme beliefs, like the world is terrible and dangerous or you're worthless, then they have a lot of power to influence your life. So to counter that, we almost naturally try to get away from them. And some of them we succeed in locking away in inner basements or abysses. Then to keep them contained so they don't Overwhelm us with all the raw pain they carry or terror. We have other parts that are forced to become what we call protectors. So the basic idea is that these good parts, and so you've heard probably the term inner children, so the younger ones, before they get hurt, we love because they give us all kinds of playfulness and liveliness, and they're fun to connect with others with and creativity and so on. But they're the most sensitive parts of us. So they get hurt the most by what happens in our lives. And once they carry that burden of emotional pain or terror or worthlessness, they have the power to overwhelm us with those feelings. So make it hard to function. So we almost naturally try to lock them up. So we call those exiles and spend our life trying to stay away from them, thinking we're just moving on from the trauma, we're just moving on from the memories or emotions that came with it, not realizing that in doing that, we're locking away our most precious qualities simply because they got hurt or scared. So. And when you have a lot of exiles, you feel more delicate, the world seems more dangerous. So many things could trigger you. And if an exile gets triggered, it can burst out and overwhelm you with these raw flames of emotion and pull you back into those scenes. So other parts are forced out of their naturally valuable states to become protectors, some of whom are protecting you by controlling the outside world. So maybe no one gets close enough to hurt you again, or so you look perfect so that you don't get rejected, or you perform at a high level to counter the worthlessness, or you take care of everybody, so they depend on you, and. But you don't take care of yourself. So these are some common, what we call manager protector roles. And most of us have a bunch of managers, especially those of us who've made it this far. Other systems call that the ego or the defenses. But for me, they're little inner people, little inner personalities who are stuck in these protector roles. Despite their best efforts, your exiles will still get triggered. When that happens, it's a big emergency. So there's another set of parts who immediately go into action to either douse those flames of emotion with some substance or get you higher than the flames, or distract you until they burn themselves out. And in contrast to these managers, who are big into control and pleasing everybody, these parts we call firefighters because they're fighting those kinds of emotion, are impulsive, reactive. They don't care about the impact to your body, to your relationships. They just think They've got to get you away from those feelings right now or you're going to die. A lot of the time they feel it, they believe that. So that's the. As I was exploring all this inner work, I tried to come up with a map. And that's the map I came up with. That's pretty simple. And it's held up as a good, useful map over all these 40 years.

It's profound because the thing I've learned the most about it's been two years now that I've been exploring your work. And in those two years, one of the things that I recognized in myself is that I was actually speaking for the part at some times and then from the part at others. And I'd love for you to talk about this. What could be perceived as a dichotomy, it's all one in the same. The part of Josh that had a firefighter come on so strong through pornography addiction for two decades plus, that firefighter was putting out a fire of an exile inside of me that really just was afraid of not being loved, was afraid of not being worthy enough for sexual connection. Which then stemmed to deeper discovery about me being 280 pounds, having a mother that was bipolar, having a father that had his own demons that left very young in my life and just really feeling alone and hopeless. And it wasn't until I really started to do this podcast, Dick, 10 years ago, that I opened up an entire world that now you've put such incredible simplicity to. One of the things that I love most about the IFS approach is that you're taking massive psychotherapeutic models and you're breaking them down that any human being can understand if they just looked at it. So could you please go back to this speaking from the part instead of for the part? I think this is really, really interesting.

Yeah. And I love your self disclosure. Really helps everybody feel safe to do that.

Well, the audience knows at this point they've sat through many episodes of us doing the work together publicly, so.

Fantastic. Yeah. To do that, I need to introduce the other big piece about ifs. The big deal about ifs is in addition to these parts, there is a kind of essence in everybody that I've come to call the self with a capital S. And I just stumbled into this discovery because I was trying to figure out how to work with these parts, initially thought they were what they seemed. So I was having clients fight with them and ignore them, but ultimately learned they are these valuable qualities that have been forced into these Roles very much like in family, a dysfunctional family. A kid has to take on a role that isn't who he is, but to protect himself or the family. He's in this role all the time. So it's basically the same with these parks. So as I'm talking, trying to change that, I'm helping clients listen to these parts, even the extreme ones, rather than fight with them. And as I'm doing that, like, let's say I'm having you, Josh, work with your critic. And as I'm trying to get you to listen rather than fight with the critic, you're doing that, okay? And then suddenly you're furious with the critic. And it reminded me of family sessions where I'm trying to have two family members talk to each other, and a third one jumps in and is siding with one against the other and goes south. I thought maybe the same thing's happening with his internal system. So I would ask you, could you find the part that hates the critic, and could you get it to just step out or just relax back for a few minutes so we can just keep getting to know the critic? And when I would do that was like this other person popped out who not only was listening to the critic, but also had compassion for it out of the blue and had what's calm relative to it and confident. And in that state, the critic would relax and share its secret history of how it got forced into its role, and we could get a lot of transformation to happen. And when I would, I would do the same process with other clients of getting certain parts to open space. It's like the same person would pop out with those same C word qualities and four or five others. And when I asked clients what part of me was that, they'd say, that's not a part like these others. That's me. That's myself. So that's why I called it the self, the capital s. And now, 40 years later, thousands of people using this, we can safely say that self is in everybody, can't be damaged. And it's just beneath the surface of these parts, such that when they open space, it pops out. That's the big deal about ifs. Now back to your question. So most of us, if we get triggered, will have a protective part that'll take over, and you'll just feel this rush of anger or whatever the feeling is. And the words that come out of your mouth will be generally provocative or not nice or at least tense with a lot of affect. And so when we're working with couples they get into it. These protectors are doing the talking, they're doing the battling. And what we learned was that if we can call timeout and have both partners focus inside and notice what's going on in there and notice the protector part that's taken over and noticing it separate from it a little bit and then stay inside until they can actually find out like you did what that protector is protecting. Like you were saying about the porn guy was protecting this other little guy who just wanted love and then come back and speak for those parts from what I'm calling self. So from those C word qualities, the receiver of the message has an entirely different experience and the conversations go much, much better. So that's part of what I'm trying to bring to conflict resolution. And we already bring it to couples therapy. But yeah, yeah, yeah.

When I'm speaking from the part, it always brings chaos. And I say always. I know that's a very reductionistic term, but it's the truth. For me, in my now fiance 6 years relationship, whenever I'm speaking from the trigger or the part, the exiled part of Josh, that is actually just a call for deeper work. It's actually very beautiful. You know, these, these exiles, these parts there, we tend to focus on so much positive thinking and there's such a spiritual bypassing and in especially social media that we get to this place and even practitioners have fallen into this space too where you can think your way out of something. But thinking and feeling are so different. And what I love most about ifs is the feeling aspect when I'm speaking from the part instead of for the part. For the part feels to me. And I'm curious your clarification. When I speak from the part, I'm really in my head, I'm very heady, I'm very projective and I'm really speaking words that don't really connect with how I'm feeling. When I'm speaking in connection with that exile part of me, there's vulnerability, there's curiosity, there's the capacity for something new. Am I getting this right?

Absolutely. And you're connecting with that exile and you're speaking for him, but you're doing it from that open hearted place rather than from that thinking that protector that's in your head and your fiance gets an entirely different message.

Yeah. The hard part for me has been, well, the greatest thing is that, you know, in your book, no bad parts, I realized that all of these are just messengers. They are all actually fundamental aspects of my healing. Yet I had to unlearn dick. So many parts of other therapy methods, and honestly, so many sessions in psychedelics with the wrong practitioner or the wrong shaman that would really focus on the solution instead of going down deep into the voice of the exile itself. And honestly, not having the faculty or the skill set to be able to determine the firefighter, the manager, the protector themselves. Have you found that people get most confused because they just simply don't know the working mechanisms of ifs? And, and how is it much, much different than just inner child work?

Okay, that's a couple big questions. So, you know, I know something about inner child work, but as far as I know, they don't have a concept of self, which is the big difference between ifs and most arts work kind of models both that and also what I was describing earlier, the map to the territory and this sort of systemic approach rather than just getting to know one part at a time. And maybe the therapist is forming a relationship with it. I'm having you form a relationship with that younger part, that boy inside of you. So you become that primary caretaker, that primary attachment figure. And that frees up your fiance so that she doesn't have to take care of that little boy. She can become the secondary caretaker of that little boy. And that's in a relationship that's very freeing for your partner to not constantly have you pulling on her to take care of that for you. But that's the big difference itself between ifs and lots of other parts models.

Essentially, what I'm getting from you is that the self could be what Eckhart Tolle might call the observer, or what Alan Watts mentioned as the awareness of the all. It's a very spiritual work, this IFS work. Yes, it comes from 40 years when you discovered it in the 80s. But also the spirituality component to this, I feel, is a living, breathing portion of ifs. Could you clarify a little bit more the self and also its spiritual connection to. To the all?

Yeah, and I'll make distinctions between both of those. Because many, many spiritual traditions do see it as a kind of passive witness or observer that has a lot of nice qualities. And mindfulness involves basically separating from your parts and observing them, but from a passive place. The step that IFS takes is to. Because you see them as suffering beings rather than just random thoughts and emotions. You're not just gonna. You'd separate from them, but you're not just gonna witness them suffer because yourself has a lot of compassion and also has a lot of ability to act. And so you're sort of naturally Inclined to. To go to these parts and embrace them and listen to them and help them as you would, as if they were your kids. You know, you mentioned psychedelics. And there's a guy named Michael Mithofer who is the primary researcher for MAPS and is also an IFS therapist. And he found because in their protocol when they were doing the research with mdma, they didn't have any kind, that the facilitator or therapist was basically just following along and staying present. There wasn't any kind of imposed theoretical framework. But he found, because he started keeping track, that 80% of the people on the medicine spontaneously started doing ifs. They saw that, they suddenly saw these parts and they started to have compassion for them and starting to embrace them. So that's the big distinction between this, what now is the spiritual practice of ifs, and others. They talk about the self in a similar way, but accept that it's pretty passive in most of these. And I come from a very scientific, kind of atheistic family, and it was really hard for me. I was sort of forced into believing more spiritually by the data because I was first seeing that I was working with people who had not just good enough parenting, but had had horrible, traumatic, tortured on a daily basis kind of basis parenting. And yet that self that I'm talking about, when we would get to it, was the same as people who had decent childhoods. And so that challenged my psychology background, which was, I don't know if you know anything about attachment theory, but promise is that to have any of those C word qualities. And again, they involve curiosity, calm, compassion, courage, clarity, confidence, creativity, and connectedness. Those are what I call the eight C's of self leadership. To have any of that, you needed to have gotten it from a relationship, either from your parents when you were young, or from a therapist or from your spouse at some point. Like, it's not inherent in us. And I was finding it in people who, like I said, had been tortured on a daily basis. There was no way to account for that based on attachment theory or psychology in general. And so I. I had some students who said, well, maybe this is like Buddha nature, or maybe this is like Christ consciousness, or maybe this is like Neshama and Judaism or maybe this, you know, just. And it turned out, yeah, most every spiritual tradition has a word for it, but again, they would describe it similarly, but again, most of the time like a state to achieve or a passive kind of witness state. So anyway, that's a long answer to that question.

It's beautiful because I Think about even the depths of Carl Jung's work, which I'm, you know, know, 20% into Carl Jung's work. I don't know if you could ever have total mastery. Did Carl Jung's work inform your ifs creation in any way?

Not. Not in the early days. Again, it was one of those things. My background is as a family therapist, and I was one of those obnoxious family therapists back in the day who kind of eschewed any. Anything intrapsychic. So I avoided studying Freud or Jung. And then I ran into this parts phenomena because my clients started talking that language. And I got intrigued. And again, being a systems thinker, I just tried to map out the territory. And then as I was doing that, people would say, well, this might be what Jung was calling complexes or archetypes. So I would go look into it and lo and behold, yeah, I think it was very similar what he was finding. And yeah, my take on Jung is that he sort of saw this also much earlier than me. He didn't organize it in his clear way, I think. And also, like I was saying, he had a concept of self, but it was something to achieve and it wasn't an active leader. So those are some of the main distinctions I would make.

It's much more liberating. And obviously I fully, deeply respect Jung's work in so many ways. I've learned a lot and I've grown a lot from his work tremendously. The part that's so interesting is that in your book, it's on the screen right now for y' all watching on Spotify and YouTube, no bad parts even in the title. There's liberation even in the title. To accept all of one's parts as not necessarily inherently being evil or bad is a. Is a jumping point for discovery of self, to strengthen the self so that we're not ruled. And if I came across this work 20 years ago, good Lord, how much suffering I would have had eased and how much more deeper I could have gone into the creative faculty of my mind. When you say there's no bad parts, is that pointing towards the fortifying of the self or. Or is that fortifying some other part of the psyche? When you say that specific term, which is a beautiful title for the book, no bad parts, what do you mean by that exactly?

I mean what it sounds like. And I didn't believe that. You know, I started out working with. I was doing an outcome study with bulimia. And so I was working with these parts of these kids who would make Them binge and then purge and also had really nasty critics. And initially I made the mistake of thinking they were bad, that the critic was some kind of internalized critical voice and binge was an out of control impulse. And I would do battle with them. And then, long story short, I learned that that wasn't true, that they were these parts forced into these roles. And I thought that's pretty wild, you know, given how most other therapies try to, you know, deal with them. Yeah, yeah. Could it possibly be that there aren't any bad parts? And it wasn't until I actually consulted for a couple years to a treatment center for sex offenders and would work with a guy's part that had done the sex offense. And you know, it took a while for the person to just be curious about it because he was so ashamed of it and hated it. But if I could get that person into self and get curious and ask the offending part why it did it. He would see scenes of when he was being abused as a child, not necessarily sexually, but abused. And he, the part would say, would look around the room and says, who has, who has power in this room? It's this guy doing this to me. I'm going to take in his energy to protect my person from him. And then that part got stuck in that time period and also got stuck with that perpetrator energy and then had this kind of impulse to hurt vulnerability thereafter. And when I got that and you know, when we could get those parts out of where they're stuck in the past and heal them, they transform too into their naturally valuable state. So it wasn't until I had worked with those and I worked with murderers in a prison and similar, similar thing. At that point I started to think maybe it's true, maybe there aren't any bad ones. And so that's another distinction, I think, from a lot of parts models that sort of radical acceptance that there aren't any bad parts. I don't think there are other models that would take that same position.

You had to have done an incredible amount of work. And how much work was being done to you? When you're meeting with rapists and molesters and murderers, how did you not judge them so deeply that it would bar you from doing the transformative work with the client?

Well, I did, you know, I had a part that was very judgmental and sort of hating what they did, hating them. But I, you know, by then, and this was some years into it, I had learned how to get my parts to trust me myself. And to step back. So I'm working with one of those kids, and I'm feeling disdain for what he had done and say, okay, I get that, but just give me a break. Just, I'll talk to you after the session. Just relax back and let me open my mind, let me open my heart a little bit. Just let you see where it goes. And then by the time we got to the part and who told us secret history, now I'm just feeling nothing but compassion for this kid and what happened to him and how he got stuck with this burden that drove him but wasn't who he was. And, you know, he had very little control over it. So, you know, it's just a very different paradigm.

The paradigm is so confronting because I look at the tragedies that are happening in the world right now, and we've all heard the phrase, dick, hurt people, hurt people. And everyone accepts that phrase is true. But it's so interesting to me how if a human being could accept that phrase as true, that hurt people, hurt people, how could it not make a perfectly clear lens into the truth of ifs? It's one and the same. Yes.

Yeah, totally. And now we're partnering with a woman named Fritzi Horseman who runs the Compassion Prison Project, and we're bringing ifs materials to prisoners all over the country so they can do this work inside with themselves. So it's one. Yeah. I have a big passion for helping people that have been so vilified by the culture and help them. I mean, just the idea that it was a part of me that did it is very liberating for a lot of people. And that there is the self in everybody. Yeah.

The part of Josh that he struggled with for the most of his life was this feeling of abandonment. And when I was abandoned, I would start managing. My exiles would manage, and they would hyper control the women I was with. And then the firefighters would come in when the manager would get exhausted. At least that's how I understood it. And the firefighter would say, well, you need peace, so why don't you just go look at a screen? Because you'll find this pseudo peace in a pornography screen. Or you'll find some pseudo peace by womanizing, or you'll find some pseudo peace by taking a bunch of drugs. We are in a very sick society. You know, Krishnamurti said it best. Right. It's no sign of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. And the sickness that we have, it's palpable. I mean, I can feel it. Every day I really get to do work on letting people have their own sickness and not attaching to it. One thing that I realized, and I'd love your clarity on this, is that in the creation of emotional epigenetics for my podcast audience, which will be the next 10 years of my life, the big profound aha moment that I got doing psychedelic assisted ifs with my mentor Mike Zeller was that I'm not here to fix my mother. And I never have been. But that exile, the young portion of Josh, this 11 year old Joshi that watched his mom get carried out of the house on a stretcher, he chose to make that a moment where he would decide he would never lose his caregiver. So he would control all the people in his life and he would manage them. But it created so much pressure and it was like dragging around a wagon filled with concrete every day and every moment. And the really big aha moment just happened. I gave a talk at Dave Asprey's biohacking conference and I just shared with the audience. It was so liberating. If you had a moment like this where you just say, the aha moment is that I'm not here to fix my mother. And none of us are. We're not here to fix each other. We're actually here to be a compassionate witness, because that's where healing occurs, in the compassionate witnessing of ourselves first and foremost and then others that we wish to serve. What comes up for you when I. When I share that?

Well, you're right. There are so many, what we call exile, little kids who are in that position with their parents and you know, for them, if they don't heal that person, then they're not going to get taken care of. So they're desperate because, you know, they feel like their life depends on being able to take, to make their parent better.

Yes.

And so, you know, if I were working with you, and I, and maybe you've already done this with that boy, but I would have you find him in your body and I would get you to a point where you just had nothing but compassion for him and then have him show you what it was like back there, show you where he's stuck back there with the mom. And then I would have you as yourself, enter that scene and be with that boy in a way that he needed. And I mean, we could do this if you want at some point.

I mean, I can feel, I can feel in my throat the emotion of that boy right now.

Okay.

I just had my mom here for two weeks. It was the biggest spiritual journey that I've ever been on. I intellectualized a lot of my healing, and even what I spoke at the conference in front of all these people, it was true for me then, it's true for me now, but I can also feel the building of energy coming to my throat chakra as you're even speaking about him right now. So I'm not here to get a Dr. Schwartz, Dick Schwartz, free therapy session, but I. I think it would be profound to be able to show people the power of your work through me. If you're open to that.

No, if you're open to it, it really. Oh, people don't get it unless they see it. So I'm.

I'm here. I'm. I'm here, and I'm grateful for it. Yeah.

Oh, fantastic. I. Yeah. So you feeling it come up in your throat mainly, or where do you feel it? Where do you feel the.

Right. In my throat.

All right. Yeah. And as you notice him there, how do you feel toward him?

Like he's going to take me to a place that I can't escape from.

Okay, so you have some fear of him, a fear of that happening?

Yeah, there's actually frustration because I. I'm 45 years old and I've feel like I've done so much work with him, but yet he still is running the show a lot of the time.

Yeah. Well, we can probably fix that if these other parts, the frustrated guy and the one who's afraid of being taken there, could give us the space. So just see if those guys, those parts, could open some space in there so you could open your mind and your heart to him and just see how possible that is. Josh. Yeah.

He wants to be in peace.

He.

He wants to be with me. He wants what I want, so we're.

Going to arrange that. But how are you feeling toward him now?

I'm feeling like I'm just so sorry for him. Like, I just.

Yeah. Yeah.

I just want to hold him. I just want to. I just want to hold him. And I'm feeling sorry because I've held him so many times, and then now it's like he doesn't trust me to hold him so that he can actually let the emotion move through.

Yeah. So just go ahead and hold him again in this compassionate way and just see how he reacts now. If it's true he doesn't trust you, that's okay. You just want to.

He wants to trust me. He doesn't. He doesn't fully trust me.

Yeah. So ask him about that. Ask him why he doesn't fully trust you, given that you've tried to be with him so often.

He says you'll. You'll let me feel and you'll let me express for a time, and then you. And then you silence me.

He's okay. So does that make sense, that he would feel that way? Yeah. Yeah. So if it's sincere, maybe you could apologize to him for doing that to him over and over.

I'm so sorry. This is my life's work, is to hear you. I just want to hear you.

That's great. Yeah. And there is some other part that would silence him, right?

Yeah.

So tell him you're going to work with that other part, too, so it doesn't keep happening. Yes. And see if he wants us to do that first or if he's okay trusting that you'll follow up and do it on your own.

He says he just wants to play, and he just wants to trust that he can play, but he can't play until he knows I've got him.

Okay. So how's he feeling in terms of trusting you now?

He really trusts me now because you're here. And he wonders what it'll be like with. With you gone.

Well, that's a really good question. So do you have an answer, Josh? In other words, on your own, can you come to him in this compassionate way and not silence him? Yes.

Yeah. I'm here to listen.

Yeah. Just let him know that. That either today or on your own, you'll work with that silencing part so he doesn't have to worry about that. Yeah. So. Yeah. So now ask if there's more. He needs you to know about what happened to him in the past. And don't think, just wait and see what comes from him.

He always was. He always felt like sex was wrong, like it was a bad thing.

Okay. And that's more about why he thought that he.

He saw Playboys on my dad's table really young, and he thought that's what sex was. But then my dad was hiding the Playboys, and then. And then he suppressed his own sexual energy and put it in this shame locker that sex was shame and sex was not good. Yeah, he was just learning from his father because his father did the same thing.

That's right. So let him know. That makes total sense that he would do that.

Makes sense.

Yeah. See if there's more he wants you to get about it. How about a West.

Now? I'm going to this place when I'm 17 and my, he's, he's. This, this like nine year old is connected to this 17 year old. And this 17 year old was, was already feeling shameful and wounded about sex. And the 17 year old had his first girlfriend. And the, his father found condoms in the laundry. And then the 17 year old didn't have a trustworthy relationship with his father. So when his father confronted him, he lied and said that the condoms were his brother's. And then his father went behind his back and told his first girlfriend, his first love of his life, that his daughter was having sex with my son. And I ended up breaking up. And then I came home and it was this argument and I left home at 17 and there's just so much sexual shame. Like, it's like, it's almost like the energy of my father didn't want me to have sex and had his own sexual shame. And coming from his own Pentecostal father with, with dogmatic judgment of sexuality. And it's just this weird. I'm like, it's almost like, like I feel like I need to throw up. It's like this sexual shame throughout my lineage on the male side.

Yeah.

Like sex had to be, had to be hid and sex was, was not good. And he's just feeling that shame.

So, Josh, this is what we call a legacy burden. So this is. You're right. It's passed down through the generations.

I can feel it.

Yeah. And you know, it doesn't belong to either of these boys. They inherited it and let them know. You see that now.

Yeah, I see it.

How do they react to being seen now with that?

They just want to like lay down and take a nap because they're so exhausted in fighting.

Yeah. First ask if they'd like to unload this legacy garden of sex being bad. Yes.

Yes.

Should we do it one at a time or they want to do it together? Just check.

The nine year old is angry that he got introduced by pornography to sex. The 17 year old is angry that his father tried to shame him for loving a woman and having sex with her.

Okay. Yeah. So let's, let's do it one at a time. So let's. You want to do the 17 year old first?

Yes.

All right. So go to him in that time period and just tell me when you're there with him.

I'm there with him.

How are you being with him?

I'm just putting my hand on his back.

Perfect. How's he reacting?

He's confused.

He's confused about who you are or what's he Just confused about.

He's confused about why. Why God wants to experience it. God's self through my father. And why my father is carrying this legacy burden. He's. He's trying to understand. He's just trying to understand.

So can you help him with that? Can you explain some of this to him? Yes. So go ahead and do that. Yeah.

This came long before you and it's not yours.

That's right.

It's not yours. I'm so sorry you had to experience this, because this isn't who you are. I know. Your love for that woman was pure. And sex is not wrong. Sex is beautiful, Josh. Sex is beautiful.

It's beautiful. How's he reacting? How's he reacting to this? He.

He knows. He believes. He believes that in his heart. He believes that's the truth.

To ask him where he carries this legacy burden. In his body or on his body?

He carries it in his and in his heart.

Yeah. And ask if he is ready now to unload it if he could.

He's ready.

All right. Then ask what he'd like to give it all up to. Light, water, fire, wind, earth, anything else.

He wants to give it to the earth.

All right, so tell him to let that all out of his body and let it go into the earth. There's no need for him to carry that anymore until it's all out of them.

He's smiling, he's happy. He wants to play. He wants to play.

Perfect. Have him check his body, though, to be sure we got all of it.

Yes. Yes.

That's great. So, yeah, he can play. And then now let's go to the nine year old. Yes. And same thing. Go into that time period with him and be there the way he needed somebody. Okay. How are you being with him?

I'm actually holding him on my lap. I have my arm around his whole body and I'm holding him on my knee.

How is he reacting?

He's like, thank God you're here for me.

Yeah, that's right. Let him know he's not going to be alone again. And same question for him. Where does he carry this shame about sex? In his body or on his body?

He says that he just. He learned it from dad.

Huh.

And it's like this weird. Like he felt bad that his dad had to use magazines and porn.

Huh.

Like he, like some like 9 year old Josh is telling me, like, a part of him knew this was weird. A part of him knew this was distortion.

Yeah.

But he did it anyway because he's a kid. He's a little kid.

Right. What do you say to him about all that?

I say to him, I am so sorry that your father thought that that was real, that your father thought that that was the way sex was. Yeah, because he learned it from his father.

That's right.

And that's not who you are, Josh. That's not who you are. You're a beautiful being that doesn't have to walk that path. You don't have to go that way. I'm here for you. And that's not the truth.

How's he reacting?

He just wants to, like, cry for half of a day. And he wants somebody to teach him what sex is, what sex really is.

What do you say to him about that request?

I say, I'll teach you. Yeah, I'm here for you. I'll teach you right now.

That's fair. How's that sound to him? He.

He's interested. He's like, what is sec. What is sex? That's what he said. What is sexual? What is it all about?

That's great. Now, before we go further with him, see if he'd like to leave that time and place and come live with you somewhere.

Yes.

Yes. All right, so take him to you or wherever he wants to go and just tell me when he's out of there.

Yeah, we're at the park together.

Okay, good. And Ptolemy never has to go back there and that you are gonna teach him about sex. And you are gonna be a good parent to him.

I've got you. And you never have to go back there ever again. And you are fully released from ever having to enter that realm ever again. I'm right here for you.

That's right. And see if, with that, he's ready now to unload the feelings and beliefs he got back there.

Yes, he's ready.

Where does he carry all that? In his body or on his body?

He carries it in his heart.

Yeah. What would he like to give it all up to? Light, water, fire, wind, Earth. Anything else?

He wants to give it to wind. He wants it to blow away.

Perfect. So bringing the wind. And tell him just let it out of his heart and let the wind carry it away when he drove. Make sure he gets it all out. Wow.

It's almost like he. He's telling me, like, well, what will I do without it? I've attached to it for so long.

Yeah. Tell them we'll figure that out.

Okay, we'll figure that out. Yeah, we'll figure that out.

Yeah. I mean, if he's too scared to let it Go. He doesn't have to, but.

No, he wants to let it go. He's just. He's having an identity transformation of like, who am I without it.

Yeah, we'll figure that out. Just reassure him. But tell me what. It's all out of him.

Yeah. Now there's just joy. Now there's just joy. Because there can be joy where there was once weight.

That's right. And that, you know, in terms of who is he going to be? He can be this joy.

Yeah.

He can just be a happy little kid. Yeah.

Yeah.

How's that sound to him?

Oh, he's ecstatic. He's ecstatic. Yeah.

And then, Josh, before we stop, let's bring in the parts that we had to get to step back in the beginning. Do you remember them? The.

The silencer.

Yeah, the silencer. The one who was afraid of these guys. The ones who might be ashamed of them. So have them come in and see both the 17 year old and the 9 year old. They don't have to worry about now and just see how they react.

No, it's like my whole body just melted to the floor.

That's right. Yeah. They've been carrying a lot of weight too, So they can relax into new roles too.

Yeah, they're actually really happy. They're like, thank God.

Yeah, it's great.

They're like, thank God. Like, they want. They want to go rest and like read a book.

Yeah, Just.

They just want to be.

Tell them they can do that and go.

Yeah.

Okay. Does that feel complete? For now?

It feels liberating.

Yeah, that's right. So this will stick if you follow up. So on your own, mainly all you need to do is maintain this by checking in with these two boys frequently, making sure they're still in their good roles, and reminding the others they don't need to silence them anymore. They don't need to fear them or feel ashamed of them. Wow.

Thank you. So. So I actually. I had some nervousness about people seeing this part of Josh, but I just don't give a shit. Cause I know that what you just gave me, this gift, you just gave it to thousands of other people in this same moment. Yeah, thousands, thousands.

I trust that. And you gave it to them because you had the courage to do it. Yeah.

I'm so grateful. Because getting this from your heart and your mind and you as a soul is profound and fundamental in ways that other mentors, coaches, and therapists have attempted to do. And I really appreciate the fact that you said the sticking power comes with the continued Conversation of the parts of the 9 and the 17. That is something I am taking very sacredly and very seriously.

The nine year old initially said that you would give him a voice for a little while, but then you would shut him down again. Yeah. So it's really incumbent on you to got to earn his trust and show that you're not going to do that. It's a lot easier to not do that since he's in a good place now.

Yeah. And especially since we've just done it in public on the Internet at the same time. So my team and my woman and people are going to say, how are you checking in with 9 and 17 year old Josh?

Yeah. You got a lot of people holding you accountable.

Oh my gosh. I'm.

Wow.

If I may just take a breath and just go deeper into the work with you for everyone else, if that's all right. The learning that you just gave me publicly. And there's no concept of time right now, Dick. I don't even know how much time that was. I don't even know that was. Time is not real. The. The depths of the loving myself that you just incredibly facilitated. That love is blocked by so much societal conditioning. I myself was like a East county, you know, Caucasian male, played football. Feelings were not open to be shared love. Self love was actually vilified. If you talked about self love or if you talked about accessing parts that you and I just did, there would be shame. And I would be sufficed to say, I hear you.

I played four years of college football, so I totally hear you.

Okay. So you know the phrase throw some dirt on it and get back out there, you little pussy. I mean that, that's literally what we were told.

Totally.

And so what position did you play?

I played running back my freshman year and then they moved me to cornerback. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. So I was. I was 280 pounds. I was the center and the long snapper, and so I was like the center of the whole thing. So everything rested on me. And that. That pressure that I felt really kind of continued on in my life and. And the manager in me, which is such an easy to understand metaphor. My manager was all about achievement, all about. I remember my first year of podcasting, I would go through and edit the whole podcast myself so that everybody would see how perfect Josh is. Now this is like 2015, 2016. Can you provide clarity? Can you shine light, please, on achievement versus fulfillment and what a healthy manager, in parts work would look like? What is a healthy manager?

Yeah. So like You I had that. I came out of my family with a lot of worthlessness for various reasons we don't have to go into. And to counter that I had this super achiever part that when, when he found ifs just took off with it because that was going to be my redemption and get my father to value me. And I value that achieving guy because he, he drove me the first 10 years, but he, he didn't make a good leader. When I once I got a community, he was so driven and could be very defensive and you know, very arrogant too that I was lucky to have some people that called me out on it and told me I better do more work on myself. And so I went to the parts like we just did that he was protecting that carry this worthlessness and did the similar process to what you just did. And that freed this achievement guy to not have to drive all the time and it could be found. He got to know myself and could trust myself to lead and he became a kind of trusted advisor or a discerner, you know, of where I should pour my time. And so he became an assistant or a helper rather than the driver of the whole bus. So that's what we aim to do with these protectors because they're very valuable when they're not in their extreme roles, when they're not driving the bus.

The achievement. How many buildings are built downtown Austin or downtown Chicago that are built by the exiles and really managed by the ultimate manager, which is. I'll show you, dad, I'll show you. I'll prove to you and all of society that I don't need, need you and I can do it all on my own. How many buildings, how many businesses, how many things are built in this world that are just really the trigger and the pain of the exile and the manager, if you had to guess.

Totally agree. Totally. I would say 90%. You know, I, I work with various CEOs and generally they have that part and it's generally protecting some kid that was either too much of a nerd and got shamed or, you know, bullied or, or had a father like the ones we're talking about.

Yes. So then we're looking at a societal evolution where right now with AI, with you and I talking to tens of thousands of people across the world in a moment where we're all hyper connected. There's also this dark side that I feel collectively that you could call it an entity, you could call it. I interviewed Paul Levy, he has a concept called Watiko, which is the Native American mind virus. And so we could call it whatever we want to call it. I'm curious your professional opinion and just your opinion as a man, as a soul. We're in this illusionary bifurcation of we have to keep having year over year growth. We have to have AI run the show. It's inevitable. It's incessant white knuckling of growth.

Yeah.

And we see it in personal development as well. Where is the healthy point of growth for the evolution of soul and society versus the white knuckling of growth just because we can. From a hedonistic or almost greed point of view, where does that live?

That lives in what I'm calling self. And you know, I'm working with some of the leaders who are trying to slow down AI and put up guardrails and just trying to support them to do that work from Saw. And they're really scared because of what you're saying because you know, we've got to be China or China's going to beat us. And, and so there's no really thought about the consequences. Just striving and striving and striving. It's all about competition. And so. And if I can help, and I have helped even some of those people access their self and get that striving, competitive part to step back. Part of the problem is there's some truth to what they're saying that, you know, China will beat us if we. They don't keep going. So. Yeah, so that's partly a much bigger issue. It's like a global issue. Yeah. But my whole thing is if I can bring more what I call self leadership to the planet, then a lot of stuff will change. It'll change fast. So that's my guidance. The last couple years has been to try to not just focus on training therapists, but to bring this to larger systems and to bring it to the culture in a bigger way to try and change the paradigm that the culture operates on so that everybody knows self is in there and everybody knows to love their parts rather than fight with them. And you know, if you can love parts of you that you used to hate, then you can love people who resemble those parts even though you used to hate them. So that's the bigger vision is really to change the paradigm.

Well, it's happening in a grand scale. You were just at the, I believe global, or was a global psychedelic conference. What was the name of that conference you just attended?

I think it was called Psychedelic Science Conference.

So I love the name Psychedelic Science. It is A science. Yet it's also so deeply spiritual. I wonder, from a spiritual sense, if you had the opportunity to sit in front of political leaders that are deep in their exile, actually deeply disconnected from their exile, would you take it?

Oh, yeah, I would. I don't know that. I think I have a sense of who you're talking about, but I don't know that they would go for it. But if I had the opportunity, sure. Yeah.

But if enough of us. And this is, this is where all change can really start happening. If enough of us are committed to knowing and loving all of our parts at. At scale, Dick. At scale. I'm talking like millions of people that have already seen you. I mean, tens of millions of people that have already seen you and your content. This is how we can change the world. This is not some airy fairy, pie in the sky thing. This is grounded in science, but it's deeply spiritual. What is the next layer of this unfolding look like, feel like for you in the movement?

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to discern. And, you know, I think, I think I mentioned earlier that I got this whole model from guides. And so I'm still asking for guidance. And what they're saying, the next step is to set up a website where they'll have a lot of free material for people when they get wind of it, can come and try it and play with the ideas and have even specialized. If you have addictions, then here's more material and if you have this and that. So that's one of the goals. We're also gonna. And you might be interested in this. We're gonna have a training for leaders like we call level one training in ifs for leaders of various kinds and hopefully some politicians. Just, you know, there's a. The guides are great in the sense that they lay out specific things that I should be doing, and I, I'm just a servant of theirs now.

So how do your colleagues in psychiatry feel about you speaking of guides?

You know, I'm not, I'm, you know, there are psychiatrists that are into this, but psychiatry as a whole, I, I, you know, I, I developed this model in a psychiatry department. I was shooting to get promoted, and I just found I couldn't make it down if I was gonna really pursue this. I had to leave after about 10 years, so I decided to go grassroots with it. So I haven't even tried to return to psychiatry. Yeah, but, but it's, you know, there are certain pockets where it's midsummer, but, you know, I Kept quiet about guides for years. And also about. You alluded to this earlier about these kind of entities we run into. So I've said there are no bad parts, but we do find these little bundles of nasty energy that aren't parts inside of people that shamans have known about for centuries that I came to call unattached burdens, but other systems call entities. And I tried to keep quiet about that for years and years too. I just, you know, I'm a phenomenologist, so I would run into the phenomena. And my father did give me the gift of stay with the data, even if it doesn't fit your paradigm. So guides, you know, I didn't know from guides I didn't know from these things, but they kept saying there weren't parts. They could even tell me where they came from. And so anyway, as I got to my age now, which I'm pretty old, I began caring less and less about trying to impact psychiatry and instead trying to. Trying to bring it to the culture more. And my guide said it was time to be open about all this stuff. And there's a book by a guy named Bob Falconer. I wrote the foreword to that. I begged him not to write for years about this UB phenomena, the unattached burden phenomena. It's called the Others Within. I think it's the name. But then I asked my guides and they said, no, he should write it. It should be out there. So since then, I've been much more open about all this. And it feels good. It feels sort of like it's about time.

Yeah, it makes so much sense too, because for 40 years, it was in the 80s that you really discovered or that maybe the guide sent you the methodology in the 80s. It would make sense, though, for the logical, linear minds in America and in the world that need the proof, which on one hand is very good for you. Now to be open and honest about these bundles of energy or these. These burdens that are. That are carried through generations. Do you feel like what you helped me see in our IFS process was part and parcel? An entity that's in my lineage?

No, because it was attached to your parts, so it was an attached person. These entities are just kind of running rampant inside of people. And.

How do they get installed? How do they get in there?

You know, if you ask them that question, they can tell you exactly when they came in.

They wouldn't lie.

For whatever reason. They don't lie. I don't know why.

Wow, that's. That must be some kind of universal rule that they can't lie.

I think that must be because, you know, it would really serve their purpose to lie a lot, but they just don't. So, you know, they'll tell you. If I say, are you a part of something else? They say, no, I'm something else. And then, how did you get in here? And they'll tell you. And most of the time, it's at a point where you weren't in your body, like yourself was disembodied. Yeah. And that's one of my concerns about psychedelics, is that you're opening the door for some of these things. And also if you've had a lot of operations or you had a lot of abuse as a kid or, you know, most anything that takes yourself out leaves kind of portal for them to come in. So it's. Yeah, it's been a fascinating ride.

I had heard about this when you did a phenomenal interview with Andrew Huberman, and it's come in many different conversations on this podcast. Both the safety and the danger of psychedelic use when it comes to internal family systems. I've even seen some people be so brash as to do ceremonies with a hundred people in the room, which I don't. I don't believe is. Is safe. And I have direct experience with that and also with entities myself. Thank God for Paul Check who helped me clear the entity. If I would have told you 10 years ago, Dick, that I'd be talking to you about this on a podcast, I would have never believed you. But the more that I learn about in what you so beautifully say, the self, if I'm disconnected from myself, these entities can be more easily installed. Did I hear you correctly?

That is correct. Yeah. So I. I do retreats with ketamine and ifs, and, you know, with 30. About 30 people usually. And we have a bunch of assistants, and before we have anybody do the medicine, we make sure we're all the assistants and me are in self. And there's a way you can extend self energy throughout the room so we keep everybody covered. In other words, so you don't pick these things up. Yeah.

The amount of care that I feel from you is so profound, and I felt it two years ago when I came across your work. Work. You're an incredibly caring man. I don't get any energy from you that you're doing this for some kind of egoic gain. How have you continued to maintain that purity even with the rise of your popularity?

It turns out that this model works. So I've done a lot of work on myself and the guides have any time I started to get really egotistic about I'm so great that I'm ringing.

This, you felt that at times they.

Would slap me down. Yeah, they would, they would force me to go and work with those parts that needed that. So what you're sensing is really true. I don't feel a great need for any kind of accolade or, you know, famous thing or anything like that. And, and sort of ironically, I think the more I've been able to, to be pretty much in self as I bring this, the more it's grown. But, but it's, you know, the humility that you're sensing is hard earned. Yeah, yeah.

The practitioners that maybe don't have that humility could potentially be a threat to the work. I'm not coming from fear, I'm just coming from awareness. If someone is a, you know, trained facilitator, let's say in neuroscience or nlp, or maybe they've gone through some of your curriculum and your teachings for ifs, if they have not cleared themselves and know how to fully contain and be in the self during the process, what might a participant want to look out for? In other words, what, what might a participant, someone who's longing for the healing that ifs provides. What would be a telltale sign of a facilitator who is not in self?

During a session, you know, you would pick up this need for approval and praise about what a great therapist you are or whatever, or how smart you are that you're getting me to do this or you know, that there's telltale egoic kinds of parts that'll be lurking around there. You have a concept we call self like parts. So these are parts, these are managers who can imitate self and they, they'll initially come with a lot of those eight Cs but it doesn't last. They have a kind of behind the scenes agenda that you can sniff out as you stay, as you spend more time with them. So yeah, yeah, that's the way I can tell.

So it's a palpable agenda that one can feel even though what is being presented might seem like a perfect situation.

Exactly. And you know, I'm not saying that self doesn't have an agenda, though it's. Agenda is not the right word. Self has a desire to bring healing and harmony, but there's, it's not attached to that agenda. And these self like parts are attached to an agenda which often, you know, comes back to being egoic.

Are there Any situations where a certain type of medicine, whether it be mdma, Ayahuasca, psilocybin, would not be beneficial paired with ifs.

Well, yeah, a lot of situations where the facilitators don't know how to be in cell, so. And also, you know, what I'm trying to bring to the psychedelics world is there are so many opportunities being missed because the medicine and Michael Pollan has a lot to do with the lot to be blamed for because he really popularized the idea that the medicine is the healer. And so you don't need therapy, really. And for me, the medicine is a very useful expedient. It's a tool and it has the effect of almost putting to sleep or taking offline the manager parts. And when that happens, you get flooded with a lot of self. You just really, in those C words. And that's a big invitation for all these exiled parts to come and get attention. And. But if you don't know how to facilitate that healing like we just did, you're gonna miss these big opportunities because these parts will come in and. And then it's like your little boy said, okay, you met with me for. Gave me a voice for a few hours, and then that's it. Yeah, he was pissed about it. So it's more like. That's what I'm trying to bring is that it's not that hard to actually help people follow up and actually take that experience and make it an ongoing piece of work in their lives.

I look at the way that all these evolutions of thought, if you look at the early 1900s with the new thought movement and then Jung's work and then the new age spirituality, I feel like you're bringing a beautiful cap and a holding. It's almost like ifs to me and definitely experiencing you. Now you have a container that you're holding people in. And that container feels so pure and so sacred and so powerful that it's the one we've been working on embodying the whole time. That's what it feels like to me.

Well, thanks for catching that vision. It's not everybody that does and not sacredness. And, you know, my father was a physician. I have three brothers who are. And I take that first do no harms motto very seriously. And yeah, so our trainings are extensive. And to become a trainer, it takes like five to seven years because I. I really want this to be taught in a. In a pure way. And with its popularity now, there's a lot of people claiming to be. And teaching very sort of shoddy versions of it. And that's driving me crazy. But, yeah, you know, we're still working on getting the copyright, so I'm glad you could see that, actually, what I'm trying to say.

Yeah, I can see it, Dick, but I can feel it. Because ever since I was a little boy, I always knew. I was like, there's something greater than this. There is something. These adults and their pain and taxes and fighting and war and just all this insanity. It's truly insanity. Like Krishnamurti said, what is the vision that you hold when you're gone? You know, maybe with AI and medical tech, you might live to 120. Cool. But let's say after 120, you're no longer here. What would be the gift you would like to leave with ifs to human beings?

Yeah, well, you know, the guides, because, you know, things look pretty bleak these days, but when I go to them, they'll say, you know, it could go really poorly for humanity. But there are sources of light around the world that are bringing light to darkness, and much more than we're aware of, because it's the darkness that gets all the headlines. But ifs is one of those sources of light, and that if we keep bringing enough of it, which is partly why I want to bring it to the culture more. Like the unburdening we just did has ripple effects. It's not just your personal unburdening, like the legacy unburdening we just said, run all through your ancestry will have ripples much beyond what you're aware of. And so as I can help people, another vision is to have these collective legacy unburdening groups, large groups of people who come together and together find those kind of legacy burdens and send them off all around the world. Just, you know, we're. We're in 51 countries now, so if we could have IFS therapists leading these groups. Because for me, these legacy burdens are what's behind so many of the conflicts in the world. Yeah. And if we could really unload a lot of that. You know, I've worked with clients who, when you start out, there's no self to be found, and their histories are really intimidating. And you just feel like, what's the point? There's no way this could change. But we get a little sliver of self accessed and everything moves really fast and improves. And I have kind of confidence that writ large, that can happen on the planet.

I can feel that. I know that. Thank you for being this mentor to so many that you'll never meet. There's so many people that you're mentoring that you'll never meet. And I just love the way that you were able to facilitate me today. That was very unexpected. I'm super grateful for it. I know that it reached people exactly where they were so that it sparks curiosity in their heart so that they go into this work. Where can they go to begin this work, whether they want to become a full fledged practitioner or not? Where is a beautiful starting place for them for this work?

Well, as our initial offering to the public, we put out a workbook which is, you see, thought it was on my desk, oddly enough, called Internal Family Systems Workbook. And that is for the public. It's a bunch of meditations and ways to work with, at least with your protectors. We don't take people through the whole exile process because it's good to have a therapist with you when you do that. But most people can do a lot in terms of getting their protectors to let them access more self and then getting to know and honoring their protectors. So that's where we're starting with the public. And like you said, no bad parts is a good to read that most people can understand pretty well. Yeah. Our website has other materials. Many of them are for therapists, but many aren't. And the website is rfs-institute.com and like I said, that's my big ambition now is to create more and more for the public that is easily accessible. You know, therapy is expensive, so I want to bring it to the people that don't have a lot of money too.

It's profound. I'll let you go. Thank you for being here. Just from a self to a self, especially now, I feel very grounded in self after our time together. If someone out there is struggling and they. They're really wanting to make sure that the evidence of ifs is real, but they're also at war with a part of themselves that says, I've already done 15 years of therapy and this probably won't work. How do you. I'm sure it's a question that comes up a lot. Can you. Can you say goodbye and just speak to that human being that's having that internal war about giving this a curious try or, you know, compartmentalizing it and saying ifs won't work without even trying it?

Yeah, well, we do have a research base which you can find on the website, but that doesn't always work with those skeptical parts. So, you know, that's the key, really. If you can get your skeptical parts to give you the space to just try it. Once people try it, they usually can see, oh, there is something to this. Especially if you try it with a part of you that ordinarily you've hated or felt thought went all your life, and then you suddenly learn it's not what you thought and you can have an entirely different relationship with it. So, yeah, my. You know, it isn't for everybody, and there will be people that. That and particularly, you know, it's been a. A challenge to bring this idea that we're naturally multiple to a culture that pathologizes multiplicity. So there are a lot of people that. Their responses. What do you think? I'm Sybil. You know, things like that. Which is a dated reference I'm sure most of your audience doesn't know about Civil, but maybe you don't either.

I don't. What is it? What is.

Was a movie a long time ago about a multiple personality disordered client that became famous at the time. So people my age will say that. What do you think? Yeah, mainly, you know, just give it a try and, yeah, if it doesn't work for you, that's okay. But, yeah, you won't know till you try it.

Thank you for bringing such simplicity and elegance to such a complex field. Dick Schwartz, thank you for being my guest on the podcast today. So enjoyed this. So enjoyed you. Thank you so much.

I did, too, Josh. It's not everybody who gets the vision of it as deeply as you do, and. And who I enjoy talking self to self with as much as. Yeah.

Yes, profound. Y' all share this podcast with somebody who's struggling that does not have to struggle so much. You know them, maybe they're you. This is a core, integral piece of emotional epigenetics and everything we're building. Thank you so much, Dr. Schwartz. I know you go by Dick, but I have to call you doctor because really, to be a doctor of something, it means do no harm. So thank you for being with us.

Thank you, Josh.