The New Rich: How to Build Wealth Like Millionaires + Escape Financial Slavery (Mark Moss)

Most of you are slaves and you don't know it. If you don't have six months of living expenses saved up in your bank account, you're a slave. If you can't tell your boss f you, I'm out of here. You're a slave. Right? People have the way to treat you however they want, but you can't say no because you need the money.

Mark Moss has 25 years of experience building multimillion dollar businesses and is a cryptocurrency expert.

Money is not the thing that you chase. Money is a byproduct of the skills that you've developed and the relationships that you have. And so my life has always been like, how can I get more skills and take them to a bigger market? You can have anything that you want, anything in the world. It's all on the other side of work.

Liberation is just this agency of choice. It's not about just having millions in the bank. It's about being free. It's about being liberated. And the lifestyle. The lifestyle.

When I was like 18 years old, it wasn't like, what do I want to do for my job or career to earn money. It was, what was the lifestyle that I wanted to have? And I think most people should be thinking about it in those terms is because if I can figure out the end in mind what my ideal lifestyle looks like, then I figure out, okay, what do I need to do to attain that lifestyle? And then once I have that ideal lifestyle, then I have that plan to get there. I can create the systems and then it dictates what I do with my money.

How do we even begin that process? Let's say that somebody just has 10 or 20 grand in the bank, right? Not a lot of money, but enough to start leveraging it. Yes.

Yeah.

Would they go to cryptocurrency first? Would they diversify in something else? Like what's happening? What's the real intelligence there to start.

I would say the first thing is.

Hey, it's Josh and thank you for watching this podcast. Can you do me a quick favor and click subscribe? It really helps us get this message to more people across the entire world, which in turn allows me to bring on bigger guests so I can bring them to. To you. There's a lot of podcasts out there. We totally appreciate, 100% appreciate the fact that you tune into this podcast. So from my heart and my team's heart to yours, thank you for subscribing to this podcast. Now, enjoy the show. Mark, welcome to the podcast, man. Thank you, it was such a joy to be at your ranch. Experience. And you know, this concept of money, Good Lord, is it more important now than ever? You know, this model that I teach in wellness and wisdom is physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, and financial. It's like the roof of the house if it's leaking.

Is that five?

I'd say it's five, yeah. So think of a Pentagon. It's on the screen right now, y'. All. Just a really rich conversation with you. And I really love so much about what you put out into the work. Cause it's practical, man. So many people out there, when it comes to finance, they're like, give me your money and I'll tell you how to make more of it. And you're like, hey, here's enough content for you to consume for an entire three years. And by the way, I don't want anything for it. Like, you're a very giving man. But I remember I was, I was interviewing Dan Martell and he told me, you'll never earn a penny more than you think you're worth. And I wonder for you, like, it's a different style of interview today because I know typically you go on and you deliver value around practicality and tactical things, which we'll get into. But I wonder for you, like, thinking about money and the wound of money. Like, I was raised on welfare. I was not wealthy. Like, I've had to create my own wealth.

Yeah.

And there was such a mindset shift that I had to have early in my life. And many of the people in the audience, maybe they're both broke, maybe they're in debt and money has become this wagon of concrete that they tow around.

Yeah.

What was that like for you? Did you always believe that you were worth the money you can earn? What was it like from your mom and dad? Like, what was the construct mentally of finance when you were young?

I think, you know, I've tried to sort of reverse engineer this quite a bit and think about it. And I've seen a study that shows that like, typically middle class kids seem to do better because they've. They saw the upper class, but they didn't have it. So it created that carrot that strive for them. Whereas the real low income people never saw it. And so they have more of a disadvantage because they don't. They don't understand it. They didn't see it. They don't believe they can have it. And so I was kind of more in that middle class. My dad was a contractor. He was a construction worker, blue collar, like I'm not a silver spoon kid trust fund at all. My dad's blue collar, but, you know, he worked really, really hard. I could say that my dad's probably the hardest worker of anyone I ever knew. He grew up on a farm, so he grew up working really hard, and he provided pretty well for us. We were, you know, middle class. Obviously, growing up at that time was a lot than growing up today. So being middle class back then, you still had one pair of shoes every couple of months and two pairs of jeans kind of a thing. Right? And, and unlike today, you know, back then, I, I couldn't get a bike. My parents wouldn't buy me a bike. I had to come up with money to buy a bike. Today my kids have, you know, $2,000 ebikes that they're riding around. So it's a, it was a different world back then. But my dad, you know, worked pretty hard, and we were kind of in that middle class, and he, I, I pretty much was raised going to private school, and we weren't really rich enough to afford the private school, but my dad would typically trade out, like, construction work to get us in the private school. And so then, you know, we were around a lot of these, like, rich kids. And so I think that created a lot of desire for me. But I think another couple things about it was that, you know, my parents struggled over money. You know, I, I can remember, you know, arguments and talking about money. I grew up here in South Texas, in Corpus Christi, until I was about 12 years old. And we knew. And we moved to California because of work. We had the oil crisis here in the 80s. My dad couldn't work. There was. Construction was done. We were broke. And we literally loaded everything in a van and drove across the country and started a new life. So, you know, I, I saw it, right? I saw that they didn't have enough. I saw, I mean, and there was, there was Christmases where we were packed out with presents, and there were some presents where my parents were like, hey, kids ain't happening this year.

Yeah.

So I, you know, I saw that. But I wouldn't say I had a bad relationship with money. I think for me, what it was was that my dad was an entrepreneur, it was a contractor. And since I was. I hate this part, but it's a good part. But I mean, since I was nine years old, he would drag me in and I'd have to go work with him, do construction.

You were working at 9?

And on my summers, on my summers, all summer, I'd Be working and, and I would be crying like a baby, kicking and screaming and he didn't care. Get in the friggin van. Like let's go. He grew up on a farm, so that's just how it was. Like when my dad grew up on a farm, my grandfather would loan him out to other farmers, right? Everyone helps get the crops in kind of a thing. So he was just like, get in the van. Like let's go. And South Texas hot hum. I'm doing tile, I'm on the ground, I'm getting dirty, getting muddy, et cetera. And so I had to do that each summer. But I think when I reverse engineer that I saw how the sausage was made. So I would go to bid a job and I'd watch him bid a job and then we'd go to the tile store, we'd get the materials, we'd come back, we'd put the tile in, he'd go back, he'd collect the payment. And so this was like kids learn through hypnosis, right? So it's like how I learned. And so I think for me, what it, what it, what it really turned into was like the lesson that I've learned. And, and maybe I think this is where I got it from. But it's just that I've, I've never had a job. I've personally never filled out a resume or a job application ever in my life. And for me, I've never thought about going to get a job. For me it's always been how do I make money? It's a completely different question.

Yeah.

And so, you know, when I was young, I wanted to get this bike. I couldn't get the bike. Now I'm probably 12 years old. And so I'm like, well, what skills do I have? Well, I knew how to mow a lawn. My dad had a lawnmower in the garage. So can I take my skills to the market? And where's my market? Where's my neighborhood? And so knocking on doors, making flyers, right? Mowing lawns, making money. Got my bike. And so my life has always been like, how can I get more skills and take them to a bigger market? And so it's skill stacking, right? And now with the Internet, I have a giant market. And so I think that's sort of been the life. So it wasn't like I had a bad relationship, but there's always been a hunger. Yeah, A hunger for more and, and skill stacking and problem solving.

Wow. You mentioned this term reverse engineering, which I've Heard anyone that's created success actually do. Like you start with the end in mind, so you begin a path, you begin a goal, you have a strategy, but then what? Why are you actually doing it? Like, what is your vision? To create something. And I don't care if it's personal development or finance, it's all the same thing.

Yeah.

So if you have a very clear vision up front about what you want to create, it's easier to actually create because you know where you're going.

Yeah.

It's like if you're in the ocean and you're a ship captain, you're one degree off, you can end up at fucking Bermuda, you know, you may not make it to the coast. So, so from, from a vision standpoint, it sounds like, man, what a gift that was that your dad actually forced you to be on the farm. It created grit. It was almost like micro or macro diversity that was created for you that probably allowed you to get through the hard times of scaling businesses and real estate and, and maybe people are listening or watching and they're like, well, I can't relate with that. But it's like, yeah, you can. You're actually starting your vision right now by listening to this wherever you are.

Yeah.

So from a visionary standpoint, when it comes to money, let's say that we put aside the, the negative beliefs about money and you just look at money as a medium of exchange. Because that's what I believe money really is. It's just a energy transport mechanism. So put that aside, from a visionary standpoint, how does someone who's currently in debt and they maybe have some pretty negative self deprecating loops going on mentally, where do they begin? From an emotional intelligence or a mindset standpoint to be like, hey, I'm worth this new vision. I'm going to create this vision. Like, what are the ABCs of that?

Yeah, I think first I would just want to go back and say 100% to your point. I mean, if you don't know where you're going, you're just not going to get there. It's like the Alice in Wonderland. Like, hey, which direction do I go? I don't know, where are you trying to go? So if like you don't have that vision, of course you're not going to get there. Which is why, you know, I love the quote and I use often, which is you either build a life of your dreams or someone else will hire you to build theirs. And so. Right. I either figure out what that life is and then build it or just, I just end up wherever somebody wants me to go. But back to, just real quick, I want to go back to the, the reverse engineering. Really what that is for me is like retrospection. And the reason why that's important is because we have to go back and try to understand how we got here or, and the good and the bad of that so that we can iterate and optimize. So all growth comes from optimization. So you know, what I see in business way too often, and I'm sure you've seen and experienced or seen others, is money, like speed. But a lot of business owners, they move too slow. So for example, if it takes you four months to get your promotion going, get your website up and your promotion dropped, it takes you four months, or let's say, let's say three months. Well then it's not going to be that good the first one. So you're going to have to optimize it. Let's try again. Let's try different headlines, try different colors. So then it takes you another three months to try the next test. So now you get four optimization cycles in a year. If I optimize once a month, I get 12. If I can optimize 12 times and you can do it four times, who's going to grow faster? Right. And so the retrospection, the reverse engineering is like, what happened here? What was good, what was bad? And how can I take that and then iterate and optimize off of that? So I just kind of want to hit that point. But certainly you have to have a goal that you're going towards. But back to the question that you asked about sort of that, that mental space and kind of believing that I guess you're okay to have the money.

Yeah.

I don't know if I have a real good answer for that, to be honest with you, because I never really had that. I don't really understand that where people feel like they're not capable of making money. I would just say overall it's, it's the example, it's often used of, of a drug addict. And you have these drug addicts that are homeless people. And drug addiction is not cheap. I mean, it can be hundreds of dollars and somehow these drug addicts find a way to get that money, to get that hit every day. And I think most people that have problems with money just need to be more like a drug addict and focus on just making money. Garrett Gunderson, he was speaking at my Mastermind at the ranch this weekend. He said most of you Guys can solve all your problems by just making more money. And so I don't know if it's about this concept of, like, I don't believe I can have money, so I squander it whenever I get it. Most people are trying to manage, like, too little, and so there's just no way to make it work. And so you can be the best organization and you can love money and you can have the best relationship, but if you don't have enough of it, it's not going to matter.

Yeah.

And so I think most people should get out of their head and get to work and go to school, make some more money, focus on money, be like a drug addict and just like, chase that money. Not that money is our highest pursuit, but. But in that game that we're talking about right now, I think most people should just really, like, focus on that and just try to make more.

Yeah. I remember Mike Dillard was in the studio a year ago and he was like, I would make a bunch of money and then I would lose it. He had this really negative mindset about, and this is a very successful man. I mean, I know you're close to him, and so I do. I want to push back on that. Right.

But that's a different topic.

It's a different topic.

It's a different topic.

It's a different topic. However, like, so he made a bunch of it, but then he lost it. So there is this dichotomy of, like, how much money is enough? And then when you make enough, do you actually feel worthy enough to keep it? Right. A bit esoteric and spiritual. And maybe that's not a world that you play in.

I would say it's.

But it's real for a lot of people.

It is real for a lot of people. And I would just say it's probably not, like, worthy to keep it. It's that you haven't developed habits to keep it. And so easy come, easy go. And I've done it. I mean, I made multi, multi millions and was retired and lost it all. Almost millions of whole and had to redo it again.

So you've been completely broke before?

I've been. Well, I was broke, yeah. I made tens of millions of dollars and then I was millions of dollars in a hole and I had to come back out of that. I mean, I'll give you this super quick story, but I started buying real estate right out of high school, started fixing and flipping properties. Within about 10 years, turned that into about a $20 million real estate portfolio. I built up two different businesses, High tech, medical equipment business and e commerce business. Sold both of those Fortune 500 exits on those. Crushed it. I had just gotten married, I was 28 years old. Got married, built this sick house overlooking the ocean, six bedroom, six car, garage, elevator, white water views. Got married, had my first kid and I sold everything, sold to businesses and I was all in. And I was done. 30 years old. Achieve the dream. My wife thought she hit the hit. The louder she stoked about a couple years later. Within four years, the California real estate market dropped 60 in 12 months. And I couldn't hang on to all my real estate because I had no income because I sold all my businesses and we lost everything. And now I'm millions of dollars in debt and I have no income, I have no job, I have no businesses, no one's going to hire me, I have no resume, I have no skill. Like, what do you even do? And I got to tell my wife that we have to move out of the house and I don't even know how we're going to afford to even get an apartment. And now you have nothing. And now you have worse than nothing because you have this massive hole that you got to pull yourself out of and you've got a family that you got to take care of at the same time. And so, so I've been there. I've been those people who spend too much money. So anyway, I think that's a different set of problems. It's not that you're wor. I wouldn't say it's that you're not worthy to have the money. It's that easy come, easy go. You think that that money can just keep coming all the time, so you spend it fast and furious, but you don't realize that that money can just turn off at any point.

Yeah, there's a discipline aspect. So do you.

It's a, it's a discipline. But it also comes back to what you said in the beginning, which is understand the end in mind. Where am I even trying to go? And I think if most people thought like, what is my ideal life? And this is what I preach, and you were at my last event, so you heard me talk about it. I think it's lifestyle over retirement. And so for me, when I was like 18 years old, it wasn't like, what do I want to do for my job or career to earn money, it was what was the lifestyle that I wanted to have. And I think most people should be thinking about it in those terms. And so for me I was, it was my friend's neighbor and he would always have a. A dune buggy out front, motorcycles. He had an rv, a boat, and he was always going and doing these things. And I was like, I want to live like that. And so it wasn't like, I want to do this specific job. And the reason why I say that is because if I can figure out the end in mind what my ideal lifestyle looks like, then I figure out, okay, what do I need to do to attain that lifestyle? Well, I probably need some passive income coming in so I could have time, freedom to go travel around the world. Well, then how do I want to get the passive income? Well, I guess I could do real estate. I could build a business and create good systems around it. And then once I have that IDE lifestyle, then I have that plan to get there. I can create the systems and then it dictates what I do with my money. So now when I'm getting money and it's coming in fast and furious and, oh, look, I got an extra 300 grand in my bank account this month. Instead of going out and buying a new Bugatti or whatever it is, like, it's like, oh, why don't I just get the cash flow to get me to my dream destination I'm trying to go to? And so what I would say, I think, in that, it's not that they're not worthy. They haven't done the hard work. Yeah, Henry Ford said, thinking is such hard work. That's why so few people do it. They haven't done the hard work to what do I really want and what is the plan to get there? And then how can I go down that path? Because otherwise they'd go, they'd go, shoot, I could go blow this 300 grand on something I don't care about, or I can get to my goal faster. And let me give you a practical example of this. So right now I'm building a house in Mexico, Dream house for my family, mansion on the beach. Sick. But like, of course it's costing more than we thought it would. And now we're at this point where, like, every decision is like, do we need, really need imported tile from Italy or should we just put ceramic? Do we really need this, like, commercial grade ice machine or should we just get this one? And now, like, now we're looking at every cost because we're like budgets overrun. Right? And now what that's done to the rest of my life is we're like, maybe we shouldn't take a Vacation this summer. Let's just put that money into the house. Maybe we shouldn't do this thing right now because now we're looking at every expense that we have in our day to day lives that we would normally spend and not think about. And we're going, but wait a minute, we're thinking about money on here. Wouldn't we rather just put that money into the house in Mexico? So we have that forever. And so the point that I'm saying is when we're going after our dream and a goal and we're seeing it and it's attainable and it's right in front of us, it changes our daily habits. So now I think about all my spending decisions based off of this goal that I'm trying to attain.

Yeah.

And so I think back to the mindset. The mindset is they just haven't defined what success looks like for them. They have no goal or plan to get there, and so they don't know what to do with the money when they get it.

It's probably a big deal too, when you lost the house and everything that taught you some of what you're sharing now, that pain of that. Yeah, you don't want to repeat that. It's like you don't want to have to have that conversation with your wife again. What did she say when you were like, hey, we're done, we have to rebuild?

You know, I mean, it was so long. I can't remember the exact conversations. But I was actually talking to Garrett this morning. We were working out and I was kind of giving him that, that little story and just we were talking about wives just in general. And I was just saying, like, I've tested my wife.

Right.

She married me at the top and had to live with me all the way through. The downside of that, you know, I don't remember the exact conversation, but I can say that it was 100% support the whole time, 100 trust. And was just like, okay, like, we'll just move to an apartment and like, let's do it. And like, it is what it is. And, you know, it was obviously, I had to start over from scratch. So I had, how do I even make money again? And, you know, like, businesses don't start overnight. And so she got her real estate license and she started crushing a couple deals. And like, that really carried us through, you know, and so it was more like collaborative, like, okay, like, let's roll up our sleeve. Let's do this thing and let's, let's get it going. So I don't remember the exact conversation, but. But that was the actions that we got out of it.

It's so important who you marry. Oh, my God. Is there anything more important? It's like the top three.

I mean, it's your part in life. I mean, it's your biggest partner. So obviously a partner for a business, a big deal, but your partner for life is. Is an even bigger deal, for sure. Yeah. We've been married now almost 22 years, and I mean, I love my wife probably more now than we did when we got married. I think there's also a lot of nature versus nurture in there. Meaning I've seen a lot of friends that have, you know, bad relationships with their wives, and they complain about them and things like that, but then it's like, have you cultivated this relationship to get it to that point? Like, have you done everything you could to, like, change it? So, like, an example would be, you know, I'm really open with my wife. I do the things that I want to do. I go on five or six dirt bike trips a year. I go on surf trips with the boys. You know, I'm on business trips quite often, things like that. Right. And obviously there's lots of other things I do. I don't. I don't want to sacrifice my family life. I want to be with the family. But, like, it's not like I'm worried like, oh, my wife's going to be like, oh, you can't go. And I know so many friends who can't take that surf trip or dirt bike trip because, like, oh, my wife would never let me go because they've never, over the years, they haven't been doing those things. And all of a sudden they want to spring it. And their wife's like, whoa, you can't leave me at home with the kids. Whereas, like, we've built this relationship where those are the things that we kind of do. And then obviously that also requires lots of support back in other ways. Right. So it's like a bank account. I have to make sure I'm giving more. But, like, over the years, we've built this relationship, so it works that way. And I think a lot of what I've seen with a lot of people is they sort of like, hide a lot of things that they want. Maybe the things that they discuss or open with or their desires. And then they. When they want those things, maybe there's some resentment there. And then when they want those things, that relationship, that foundation is not set for them. And that's what I mean by that nature versus nurture kind of a thing.

Yeah. See, this is why I love the very first time we ever connected. I think you had people do, like an intake video to come to the ranch. I was like, look, money for me is about liberation. It's about freedom. It's not about, like you said, hey, if you're. If you're having issues in your life, like, there's not a lot of problems that money won't solve, which is true. And I think really, people get so twisted about money because they've never had it, they don't know it, they don't have any relationship with it. And so I think about in my own life, coming from welfare, like, I can remember standing in the lines at school where, like, you'd get the lunch for free, like, the O line. And I felt shame about that. So I had to work through, especially launching this podcast business. Hey, I'm actually worthy of money. And I had to really work through that. It's a blessing that you didn't have to work through that. But there's so many people out there that are just like, okay, how do I even cultivate this relationship with money? And what does money mean? Because at the end of the day, they just want freedom. Isn't that really what this is about, man? It's what I mentioned to you when I went to your event.

It's what it's all about.

It's not about just having millions in the bank. It's about being free. It's about being liberated. And the lifestyle. The lifestyle. And in a total paradox, it's like, I'm only as liberated in my relationship with my wife, my husband, or money as my darkest secrets. I am only liberated as my darkest secrets.

Yeah.

Either the views that I have about money or being honest with myself about not knowing how to hold it, not knowing how to make it, not knowing how to share with my wife and have emotional intelligence. It feels like it's all the same thing, dude. It feels like it's all about the same thing.

I think that a lot of people think they're chasing money. Well, they are. And if you think about, like, a business. Business, right. There's like, two ways to grow a business. You get more customers, increase the value of the customer. Basic, elementary. However, most people are all chasing, getting more customers, which is the hardest part. You could just make the customer more valuable. That's much easier. But also, when it comes to money, it's sort of the same thing where it's like everyone's chasing money. I got to change my relationship to money. I have to go make more money. You know, all these things. But money is like a byproduct. Money is not the thing that you chase. Money is a byproduct of the skills that you've developed and the relationships that you have. And so what happens is we have to develop the skills to get the money and keep the money. So, for example, how many people go on diets and lose a bunch of weight and then all of a sudden gain it right back? For sure, because they haven't built up the discipline and the skills necessary to keep that weight off. Right. And so it's. It's through the development of skills, lots of skills to make it and also keep it, and then the relationships that bring those deals together. But like, chasing money by itself is. Is sort of impossible. Right. And so if you focus on the skills, learning the skills that I need to make the money, I think you have a much better chance of keeping it. Right?

Yeah. Also, communication. Have you always been a good speaker? Is that something natural?

I. I guess I would say yes, although I never was a speaker, but I do remember many, many, many times. I can't even count dozens of times, people were like, man, you should be a speaker. Like, you'd be a good speaker. But I never did. I never did any public speaking. And as a matter of fact, it was my old business partner. He forced me to do a YouTube video with him. I didn't even want to do it.

Who was it?

Jacob Canfield is his name. We did. We were selling a cryptocurrency research trading service and research newsletter, and we were running paid ads to do that. In 2017, when Bitcoin ran from a thousand to 20,000 in that year, markets stopped going up and there's no more buyers. And so what they did, they. The government's banks colluding together and big media, big tech. And December 2017, they block blocked the ability to transfer money from bank accounts to cryptocurrency exchanges. They credit cards blocked transactions, crypto exchanges, and Facebook and Google banned all advertising for it.

So you were shut down.

So we were shut down completely. So we're like, oh, shoot, well, how are we going to sell this product now? We can't even talk about it. So my partner at the time started a YouTube channel, and he was just doing technical analysis online all day. And then after a couple months, he's like, hey, you got to get on this channel and do some content with me. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, I don't do that. But. But once I started doing it, I found that I like it. And, and you know, I feel pretty comfortable speaking now. So. Yeah, I think that's definitely a skill. I think that that should be learned. I think it's maybe today. I mean, you're a podcaster, a content creator. I think it's top.

It's. It's probably one of the most important things I've been.

I've been talking quite a bit about what I call the real law of attraction and not the non new secret stuff where you sit in a room and think stuff's going to be attractive. But the real law of attraction is, number one, we've already talked about having a vision. You got to have a vision, a big vision first. Number two, you have to be able to craft a compelling story about the vision. And then number three, you have to have a platform to tell that story. And if you do those things, the people come, man. Like, now that I have these platforms built, I mean, the amount of deal flow and connections and opportunities, it comes so fast. Now it's a completely different skill set. Now I have to learn discernment.

Yeah.

And focus. But that law of attraction, I mean, if you want good people, you want more deal flow, like, whatever, it's just like. So the storytelling is a big, big, big piece of that.

And then I heart came along. When did you start? You were the first host for Bitcoin on iHeart.

Yeah.

How did that come about?

It was, I think, 20, 21 maybe.

Did they approach you?

Yeah, yeah. So I got a. I got a direct message, I think it was on Twitter from this guy, Joe Robinson. And Joe Robinson, I think, is like the number two person at the iHeart. IHeartMedia network below Bob Pittman. And iHeartMedia is massive, obviously. I think it's the largest media network. They bought out Clear Channel and like they. Massive. So I got this DM from this guy, Joe Robinson. He's like, hey, you know, I'm. I'm at iheart and you know, blah, blah, blah, and we, I'm a big fan and we'd like to get you on the network. And I thought it was like a fishing message. I thought it was kind of like a scam thing, you know, and so I kind of like ignored it at first, but he kept following up and finally I'm like, oh, I should probably chase this down. And. And sure enough, I mean, it was. It was the guy and he's the top. One of the top guys at iHeart. And he's like, hey, I'm a fan. I love your content. I'd love to get you on the network. We want to give you a radio show and we want to. And we want to do your podcast. And I mean, it seemed like a huge opportunity. The radio seemed kind of weird to me because, like, who listens to the radio anymore, right?

Like, like, why don't you input radios in cars? It's like cassette decks.

Yeah. So I'm like, I don't know if I want to do the radio, but. But I just thought, you know what I mean? I'm trying to reach as many people as I can. If I can get to more eyeballs or ears at this point, I guess that's a good thing. So, yeah, so they gave me a radio show and it was interesting because I was recruited by, like I said, the top. And because it's such a big company and as you can imagine, like, they can't like, usurp the people below them. So it was like, well, let me talk to the head of the podcast channel and the head of the radio and see if they'll bring you on. He has to kind of get their permission. Obviously, they're buying. So Julie, who runs the radio and Will runs the podcast, and they're like, yeah, let's do it. And so we got the deal going. I spent about maybe two and a half years doing the radio show.

People call in?

No, no, we.

We would.

We would prerecord on a Thursday and then it airs live on the radios over the weekend. And different rate because the radio is syndicated. So each radio station is owned independently. Not each, but most of them are independently. So it's syndicated. So some would run it on a Saturday morning, someone run a Sunday afternoon kind of a thing. So it wasn't recorded live necessarily. It would. It would air live in a. In a radio slot. Yeah, I did that for about two and a half years. I shut it down about maybe four or five months ago. The radio side, I. I still have the podcast with iHeart, but the radio was just like, well, interesting enough. I had a lot of people said they heard me on the radio, which was kind of surprising to me about that many people still listen to radio, but it is a dead platform. And I spent a lot of energy, was a three hour show a week. So to go live for three hours, there's a lot of prep that goes into that, obviously. So it was like a day, a week out of my schedule. And I'm like, I'm building on a dead platform. It's not growing. I, you can't get any data back from it. You don't get like YouTube views or, or, or retention time. You don't get anything. It's like, I don't know, they're like, well, it's in these markets we estimate these many people listen in these markets.

Yeah, it's wild. Like I look at Ramsay and some of the advice that he gives out and it's really cool for the boomers, right, because they're like, oh, just save more and terrible advice. It is probably the worst advice. If you could wave a magic wand and like literally, let's say for a month you got paid whatever you wanted to make. To sit in Ramsey's seat and actually share real financial information that could create legacy wealth, what would you do?

I would, if I was in Ramsey seat, I guess I would try to sell, say what I already said, which is, you need to build up the skills. Because what happens is Ramsey's telling everybody, don't use debt, pay off your debt, don't have debt. But if it doesn't take into account that we are currently. And he's so old, maybe doesn't realize this. Put about 50 years ago, we transitioned from an equity based system, a gold system, into a debt based monetary system. So the answers change. Einstein was a professor and every year he gave out the same test. And one year one of his assistants came up and said, Einstein, I don't know if you realize this, but you're giving out the same test that you gave out the year before. And Einstein's like, yeah, so. And then assistant's like, well, the students have the answers from last year and they probably shared them and they could cheat. And Einstein says, yeah, but the answer's changed. So what that means is that new information comes available and our answers have to change. So like a lot of people still say, well, look what happened in the 1940s in the markets and look what happened in the 1970s. Yeah, but the answer's changed. The markets are completely different today. That same thing is not happening. So anyway, 1971, Nixon took us off the gold standard and we went from an equity based system to a debt based monetary system. And what that means is that money is created through debt issuance. So when I grew up, my parents were like, what do you think? I got a money tree in the backyard. Yeah, we do. We all have a money tree in the backyard. We can go down to the local banking, I can get a million dollars right Now I can get a boring business from Cody Sanchez that's trading three times value. I can buy a million dollar business with $300,000 of free cash flow. I get a loan for that. I have 150, 000 of debt service. And I have 150, 000 free just coming to me just because I went to the money tree at the bank. So he is saying don't use debt. But the way we build wealth is by money is created through using debt. And so you hear like Donald Trump, he's like, he was known as the king of debt. Right. He became a billionaire. Robert Kiyosaki, he's a billionaire, used debt to get there. So Robert Kiyosaki says that Dave Ramsey is right for the majority of people because the majority of people have never built up the skill set to use it. Now leverage and debt is similar to fire. I, I say fire can heat my home or it could burn my house down. Kids should not play with fire. You have little kids, you don't want them playing with fires down in your trees because they could start a fire. But hopefully you get old enough and you learn how to use fire responsibly. But the problem is most adults have never learned how to use debt responsibly. And so I would say rather than telling people, stay away from wealth creation, stay away from debt, I would maybe teach people how to use debt responsibly because that's the way to achieve wealth really fast. So that'd be probably one thing that I would change again, it reminding people that it is dangerous and you do have to be careful. But there is a right way to wield that sword that could achieve massive.

It's almost like the mindset he gives is the same one where you go to a doctor that's maybe smoking a cigarette with a belly and he's like, just take this pill and you'll be okay. It's like this reactive approach where the physician or the financial advisor doesn't trust the person to be sovereign.

Yeah.

Doesn't trust the person to grow the skill set. It's actually quite disempowering. So it's like a band aid that you put on. Yeah, but that's what I feel like Ramsey's doing. And I interviewed John Deloney and he was talking about like, oh, we need to save more and sell our cars. And I just cut them off. I'm like, I do not want to have people get in this mindset of like, save money and earn more. Although there's truth to that? There is this leverage that you talk about that's so fascinating. And it is actually going into smart debt. Yeah, like using money to make more money. Because still money doesn't do anything. Right. People that have like huge amounts of liquid in the bank, like they are missing out on something really big here. How do we even begin that process? Let's say that somebody just has 10 or 20 grand in the bank. Right. Not a lot of money, but enough to start leveraging it. Yes.

Yeah.

Would they go to cryptocurrency first? Would they diversify in something else? Like what's, what's the real intelligence there to start?

I, I would say the first thing is making sure you're making enough money. And so I would invest most of my money there in the beginning. So do I need to take more classes on acquiring more skills, whether that be copywriting or Facebook advertising or, or video editing or whatever? And can I grow that my wealth creation first? Right, because nobody invested their way to wealth. Warren Buffett, he's known as the best investor in the world, but really he started a business and he still goes to work every day at a company called Berkshire Hathaway. Ray Dalio, famous investor, built a business called Bridgewater Capital is a business. And so we have to create the wealth first. We can't invest our way there. So I would say, number one, if you only have ten grand, I would probably try to figure out how you can make more money with that. Now once I have my wealth creation going, I have some, some sort of, now I have enough money to, to work with, then we can start investing. How would we do that? I think a very simple way would be, I mean real estate is where most people make their money because it's elementary level education. I mean you could buy a rental property, you put the 10,000 down on a hundred thousand dollar house, it makes you 200 bucks a month. You put the 200 bucks a month in the bank account. In four years you had enough to buy a second house. Now that goes in the bank. In two years you have enough to buy another one. Now one year you have enough to buy another one dot now six months you have enough to buy another one. And in seven or eight years you got like six or seven houses. You probably never have to work again. That's very simple. There's faster ways to achieve that. So then for example, I talk about like in the bitcoin space, people say, well, what's better, Bitcoin or real estate? I'm a big bitcoin guy, we can talk about bitcoin, but bitcoin or real estate, which one's better? Well, better for what? So I think that's the wrong question to be asking. The right or the, the better question would be how do I use multiple assets in the proper sequence to end up with more with both. So big real estate is actually a pretty bad investment in my opinion. Well, factually it is unless you use debt. If you pay cash for real estate, it's not that good. Like bitcoin's going up. On average it's up 142% in 12 months. Up 250 in 24 months. Real estate's going up by about 8%. So 150 sounds better than 8%.

Right.

But real estate, you use debt so I can put 10% down and leverage that asset. So I can leverage a hundred thousand dollar asset with $10,000. So number one, I get the leverage. So now if I bought a property for a hundred , I put 10,000 down. In three years that property is worth 130,000, 140,000. It's up 30% on the 100,000, but it's up multiple times on the 10,000 I put.

Down. What about the interest rate and the home fees? Like I spent like multiple hundred thousands here just getting it to a place where it could be.

Comfortable.

Yeah. How do you take that into effect? Because like you said, real estate is a great elementary step, but it also has some opportunity costs that maybe people don't plan for. You're experiencing that with.

Mexico. Yeah, for sure. So how do you factor my place here as.

Well? Yeah, how do you factor that.

In? Well that's what we call a value add. And so that's taking it to the next level. So now we're talking about adding more skills. So then if I was going to buy that proverbial house for 100,000, that hopefully makes me 200 bucks a month. I maybe I'm making a 10% cash on cash return. I'd like to make a 20% cash on cash return. So how could I get that from a 10% to a 20%? Well, maybe I could add a garage. Maybe I could remodel it maybe. Right. And then I could increase the rent. So I put 20,000 down to add a carport, but I'm able to increase my rents by 300 bucks a.

Month.

Right. So now we're talking about value adding. And so back to your example here at your house, is this house worth more now that you've done the Work than it was before. Yeah, of course. Right, exactly right. So the goal, no different than what Cody does with buying boring businesses. Buy a boring business and then update the marketing and put technology in and you've increased the value of the business. So that's just a core basic principle. And so back to the real estate. I mean, my house in Mexico, I bought a piece of dirt on the beach. On the.

Beach. It's a good piece of.

Dirt. And now we're value adding. We're adding value by putting a structure there. And it will probably be worth, I'm guessing it's worth two to two and a half times more than it will cost me to build it. So. Because I've added that value. Right. So that's how I kind of think about it. So you could start obviously in the beginning by buying places that don't need that, that, that extra money, your returns are going to be lower. If what I say is like passive income or income is sort of like. It's a scale, right. So the least amount of work is my least return. I can buy a U.S. treasury and make 5%. I have to do hardly nothing. Right. I could add passive income in my business and make 50, but I have to work a lot more for it. So real estate fits on that scale. I could buy a piece of real estate that's done, ready to go. My cash on cash return will be very low. If I'm willing to put more value, more work into that, then I can increase that, that.

Return. That's trust with the contractors. And maybe you have to do.

Work. Man. I'm sorry, I. I told my people at the Ranch Experience this weekend. I said, look, first of all, what is it that you want? Number two, you can have anything that you want, anything in the world. It's all on the other side of.

Work. It's the work part. I think that maybe people don't feel they can do it or they don't know how to do it. It's like, well then just learn. Right. Just like everyone else did. It's like the first time you do any. The first time you went on the radio, was it super comfortable? Did you feel like you were the best day one versus year.

Three? Yeah, certainly.

Not. Okay, so it's like the first time we do anything, there's always a crunchy learning.

Curve.

Yeah. And I think that learning curve applies massively to bitcoin. Look at the fear mongering that's going on with bitcoin. It's run by the cartel. China can track it, it's decentralized, but the government can see who's doing everything. And by the way, they're not going to let it continue. It's too late. Like the genie's already out of the bag. There's no way. Can you educate people on a high level? There is absolutely no way that anything or anyone could stop bitcoin. It's just impossible at this point right now. I know this because I've done some research, but this is your world. I mean, you eat, sleep and breathe this world. So when people come to you like, let's say you're out at a coffee shop and you have a bitcoin hat on and some lady says, oh, you know, that's. The government's not going to let that.

Continue.

Yeah. What do you, how do you respond to.

That? Yeah, that one.

Specifically. Just that.

One. Yeah, so let's talk about that one specifically. So first of all, they, they will never allow something like big. Okay, so for who, who are they? Okay, the government. Okay, so is the government a monolith? Are we in a dictatorship? No, we're obviously not in a dict. We're somewhat in a republic or democracy. I don't even know what we're in right now or who are, who's leading the country, but whatever, it's not a monolith. Right. So what we have obviously two parties, right. There's multiple ideologies within the party. And bitcoin has now entrenched itself inside the government. So Patrick McHenry is head of the Financial Services Committee. He runs. He has the bitcoin white paper up in his office. So we have a lot of high ranking government officials who are bitcoiners now. And literally putting the head of the Financial Services Committee putting it up in the, in the paper. Senator Cynthia, Cynthia Lemons from Wyoming just put a bill forward and it's already gone, getting into the House to put bitcoin reserves on the US Government balance sheet. So we have a lot of like prominent people in the government who are pro bitcoin. We also have a lot who are very antagonistic, like Senator Elizabeth Warren, for example. And she wants to ban all.

Cryptocurrencies. Why, why does she want to ban.

It? You know, some, some would, some would argue that she's a mouthpiece for the banks, you know, for, for Wall Street. Big, big.

Banks. But those banks are also buying.

Bitcoin. I agree and we'll get to that. Some would argue, and this is probably more of my opinion, I mean, there's multiple regimes inside the government. And really what we have is we sort of have this globalist regime which is really sort of the wef, NATO and the west, really. Right. And so like I would say the Biden Obama administration is part of that, but obviously Trump is not in that cabal. Right. And so we have this sort of NATO, eu, west kind of conglomerate, if you will. Right. And they want to ban it 100 because they can't have control over it. So they want to ban it. But then we have, we're still in America. Like, we still have a lot of freedom loving people. Like, what's on the ballot is freedom. That's what's on the ballot. So rfk, when he was still running and Trump were both like, hey, we're going to make Bitcoin 100. Of course, like, why would we make it illegal? Like what president of America for the land of three, would run on a platform of taking away your freedom? Makes no sense. So they're like pro freedom, so pro bitcoin. But this, this cabal, like this global cabal wants total control. So that's why Elizabeth Warren would want to take it. So Elizabeth Warren is one of the highest ranking members of the Biden administration. There was some horse bargaining that was done for her to step down. She was going to run for president. She stepped down, but they gave her a lot of power. So that, that's part of it. But the point is, is that the government is not a monolith. So some people are super pro and some people are super against. And the government is set up in a series of checks and balances to sort of create that gridlock. So back to the question. The government could just ban it. So number one, the government's not a monolith. It's going to be very hard to do that. Number two, you would probably agree the government is working very hard. The Fed, the Treasury, the government is working very hard to not have recession, sending out stimulus to people. Right. Trillions of dollars to keep things from crashing. So what would happen if they seize the wealth of 25 million Americans, trillions of dollars, Would that cause a problem? So they're literally trying to pump money in to save it, but they're going to just suck all the money out and crush 25 million Americans and bankrupt like that seems counterintuitive to what they're trying to do. That's number two. Number three, if you understand how the government works, it's not good. Unfortunately, our lawmakers that go create laws don't actually create the laws. It's the lobby groups that create the laws. What they do is they give them to the lawmakers to sponsor or co.

Sponsor.

Right. So who do you think the biggest lobby groups are? I mean, pharma for sure, but the financial services industry are pretty big. So you have BlackRock, which is arguably a semi quasi arm of the government. And I say that because, let's say like through the 2020 pandemic, they became the outlet for the Fed to start injecting money in here. Or when the banks collapsed in 2023, we had three banks collapse. Blackrock sort of worked to bail them out. So there's sort of like a quasi arm of the government. They have a Bitcoin ETF. It's the largest Bitcoin ETF. BlackRock, Fidelity, etc. There's several of them. They've spent billions of dollars probably to get these products to market through compliance, etc. Now they're making billions of dollars for people buying them. Would they want the government to make it illegal, do you think? They would probably fight that. So we have like this massive coalition of, of interest that, that probably would not want to see it be illegal. And even if the, even if the government wanted to circumvent all that and get around the Financial Service Committee, get around blackrock, get around the politicians, get around all that, then what? They're going to crash America by taking everyone's wealth? So I think the probability of that is very, very.

Low. Yeah. All right, so for people that maybe are just starting to do the dca, like I just purchase bitcoin every week. That's my strategy. But for people that are just beginning to enter the world of bitcoin, I'm sure you have people that come to your channel, they're like, where do I start? Yeah, where do I. What's the first step for bitcoin? Is it just as simple as.

Dca? The first step is to, is to learn about it. You know, when people ask me, hey, Mark, what's the best asset to buy? What's the best crypto to buy? That's like someone saying, mark, what's the best wave to surf? And I'd say, well, the best wave to surf would be pipeline in Hawaii. Now, you should not start there. Certainly not start.

There. Wear a.

Helmet. Yeah, you'll die. Right? Don't, don't go there. Yeah, but that's sort of the thing. So what I would recommend is like, you sure, dca, but how much should you dca? What percentage should I put in? And you don't know those answers until you've done a little bit of the work. So what is this thing? Where do I think it's going? A lot of people say it's too late. You know, I missed the boat. It's already $60,000. Well, it's too late for what? Humans are comparing. We compare things compared to what? Compared to another crypto that's 10 cents. Or compared to where Bitcoin will be in five years. And so you don't know those things. So you have no conviction. And without any conviction, you have no idea how much you should be allocating to it. So in the beginning, sure, put in 1 or 2% of your net worth and then start learning about it until you build that, that conviction up. But, yeah, DCA is a great way to do it. There's two ways that you can do it. So let's just say, hypothetically, I want to put $10,000 in. I could either lump sum in, just buy the 10,000 today, or two, I could say, well, what I'll do is I'll put that 10,000 in every two weeks, or I'll just take, you know, whatever X percent of my paycheck, and every two weeks just automatically smash by. And so those are both ways to do it. Now, which one performs better? It sort of depends on when you get in. If you happen to smash by at a low, you're going to outperform someone who dc8 in all the way up to a higher high, obviously. But there's lots of tests that show even if you started at like, say, Bitcoin's peak in 2021, and then it crashed all the way down from 69,000 down to 20, about 16,000. If you would have started buying at the very top peak and DCA'd all the way through, dollar cost averaging in, like, you would have been way into the profit in a short period of time because you started buying a 69, 000, but then you were buying at 15,000 too. And most people, when they smash by, they miss the highs and the lows. So dollar cost averaging helps you do that. So it sort of depends on the timing. They're both good strategies. I typically, the way I do it is I buy frequently. I use Bitcoin as my store of value. That's my unit of account. And so while everybody's being hit hard by inflation and home prices are getting more expensive, more expensive, everything's getting cheaper for me because I price everything in bitcoin. And so what? Whenever I have an Extra surplus of money. I, you know, I don't have any big business initiatives going on. I'll just put it into bitcoin. So like I, you know, a couple of times a year I just move big chunks in and I'm not really trying to like time a perfect top and bottom because nobody knows top and bottom, but I'm dollar cost averaging in that way. But more like I said, a couple times a year as opposed to just like on a bi weekly basis. And one of the better models that I can just throw out real quick to finish. This is Michael Sailor who owns Micro Strategies. You know, one of the largest bitcoin holders in the world now, right? He's bought billions and billions of dollars. I think he's whatever $8 billion of Bitcoin. His company Micro Strategy has turned that into their unit of account and their reserve. And he just announced yesterday they put in another couple billion dollars. And like they just buy whenever they have money on a regular base, just like clockwork, regardless of where the price is. And he's like, yeah, I bought the last bitcoin top and I'm going to buy the next bitcoin top and I'm going to buy every bitcoin top there.

Is. It's just because it's this long term strategy, it's actually the opposite of delayed gratification. So it's seen things 5, 10, 15, 20 years down the road. Like I think about my son and my daughter. Yeah, I buy bitcoin for them. It's not for me. I'm not buying bitcoin so that I can become wealthy. It's about leveraging it for them. I mean, look at real estate being an actual physical thing, right? Bitcoin isn't a physical thing, it's a digital thing. And I think that's the construct that people have a challenge getting over is like, well, if I buy a piece of real estate or if I invest here, like those are things that are actually tangible. But bitcoin is tangible. It's a tangible item. Can you explain.

That? I think anybody who in this day and age thinks that something digital is not real is not being honest about what their argument.

Is. How.

So? Well, we live in a digital world. Where's all your, where's all your DVDs that you stab or where's all.

Your. Dude, they're at Tower Records.

Right? And so like we, everything we have is digital. Like I don't have a printer or a scanner in my office or my home. Everything's digital. Like I don't have paper. Everything's on my phone. All my music, my movies, all my records, my stock certificates, everything I own is digital. So, like, how can anybody say it's like, it has to be tangible, really, because most of the stuff we own is all digital. So that's what I mean. Right. We live in this digital world. Anybody who's making that argument, I don't think it's being, you know, on honest with themselves. But what bitcoin really did, though, to. To their argument is bitcoin solved a problem that had never been solved before. And it's called a double spend problem. And so what the problem means is that when, when I get something digital, I can make a copy of it. So if you send me a photo or a song or a book, I can make a copy before I pass it on. And so how do you use money in that way that doesn't get.

Copied?

Yeah. And so bitcoin solved that problem. It was a zero to one moment. It was creating fire. You can't do it again. And now we can have this digital money like a book or a music or a movie, but it can't be duplicated. And so it is a little bit different. And so then someone might ask, well, how is it digitally scarce? And then we start getting to like, technical questions that I think are more than most people should ask. Like when I flip that light switch over there, how did, how did this light my face up? I don't really understand. I don't really understand how when I push this button, I can see my kid's face on here. Like, could you explain to me how my kid's face shows up? Like, do we need to understand all those things? Sure we can. I can break it down in a technical definition that's easy to understand if you want me.

To. Well, no, I think the better analogy was you mentioned Henry Ford and he said, why do I have to do all these decisions? I just have a button on my desk and I can push it and I can hire somebody who's the best at what they do. It's like speed in business is big. If you as a leader or a wealth creator have to sit and figure out why or how everything works rather than just looking at clues. Right. Tony Robbins says success leaves.

Clues.

Yeah. Then you are literally stunting your growth on so many level levels, there's just no way you're going to be able to grow. Is that so? Have you seen that play out in your life and with all.

Entrepreneurs? I mean, certainly that's like the who not how I think argument. Right. So it's like, who can I get to help me with these things versus trying to figure out everything out on my own. Yes, so, so certainly. Right. And that's like a delegation piece. But I want to take it back to the bitcoin piece for a minute just because since we opened this Pandora's box, I'd like to just like maybe maybe just kind of put something here for people, please. And, and I can do a lot of people. You asked if people come up to me and ask me these questions. One question I get asked all the time is explain bitcoin to me. Like I'm five years old and in, in two minutes and it's like, no, a five year old can't grasp it. Yeah, like it just doesn't. Like life doesn't work that.

Way.

Yeah. It takes time to learn things and it just.

Does.

Right. We talked, you talked about this. Like you have to learn these skills. But let me just, let me, let me, let me throw some bait out that maybe would just motivate people to go learn a little bit more about it. So you mentioned about money and, and, and really what it is. So from a philosophical level, if we think is like a store of my energy. So the law of thermodynamics is that energy can't be created, it can only be transferred. And so like the sun puts energy into the plants, the food, I eat the food. A food is measured by a calorie, a unit of energy that gives my body energy. I'm digging a hole for four hours, expending my energy, and I get enough back to live for that day. Let's say I work an extra four hours that day, but I don't need that. Well, I can store that extra four hours of energy I exerted in money. So tomorrow I could use that energy to, in the money as opposed to me having to work. So we understand that that money is sort of like this store of value. And, and then you have to have to understand this concept that, that we as people don't want money. What we want is the goods and services money can get us. And money is a, a parking lot, It's a place in waiting until we want the goods and services that we want. And so wealth is really goods and services, not money. Wealth is goods and services, not money. Money is just a way, a medium exchange to get the wealth. So then if you understand that all the wealth in the world, all the goods and services in the world, all the real estate, the buildings, Etc, all the wealth of the world is divided by all the money in the world. So the reason why, when they print more money, the cost of things go up is because they're diluting the value of that money. Right? This is just a division of this. The goods and services divided by the amount of money. Now, if you think about if you invested into my company and I sold you 10% of my business, but then I went to go raise more money, then you could get diluted, and now you only own 8%, and now you own 6%, and now you own 5% of the company. And that's exactly what's happening. So when you hold your money, every time they print more, I'm being diluted in my percentage of ownership of the goods and services. Okay, but bitcoin is a, a fixed monetary supply. There's only 21 million. This is a little economics here for a second. So there's only 21 million. So it's a fixed supply. So now where I believe, and I can break this down from an evolutionary standpoint, but money is an emergent process. And we've gone from feathers, rocks, seashells, to gold. And now we're in this fiat monetary system for 50 years. It's an experiment. Most of us don't realize this, but out of thousands of years of history, we're just 50 years. The first time we've tried this, and it's failing miserably. Eventually, I believe we'll move to a new neutral reserve asset. As the world breaks up, the world is screened for a neutral reserve asset. That's what gold was. Anyone in the world can dig gold out of the ground. It's neutral. Now we have a money that's weaponized, like against Russia, for example. And so the world will move back to a neutral reserve asset. I believe eventually bitcoin will become the new unit of account. And so you'll have all the wealth of the world divided by all the bitcoin of the world. The difference in that system is that if you own, like Michael Saylor owns 1% of the Bitcoin supply, that means he'll own 1% of the wealth in the world. And he can't be diluted because there's no way to print more of.

Them. That seems like the most really salient point. That is a huge. You can't dilute.

It. And why is that important? It goes back to what I said. While everyone's cost of living is going up, my cost of living is going down. Why is everyone's cost of Living going up because they're constantly being diluted. But if you hold your wealth in an asset that can't be diluted, like bitcoin, then my cost of living goes down, means my purchasing power goes up. And you know, I say one of the greatest. There's that quote. The greatest trick the devil ever played is convincing it's not real. The greatest trick the Fed ever played is convincing us that the money supply always has to expand and that assets going up is a good thing. Neither of those are true. If we have a fixed monetary supply. And I just ask people this question, would you rather your money buy you more goods and services in the future or less? Less. More, of course, because we should be working. It should be less and less work. Life should be getting easier and easier. Easier. Technology was supposed to solve all these problems. In 1971 or 1970, before we got off the gold standard, a cup of coffee was like 10 cents. Today, a cup of coffee is like 4 bucks. Don't you think with all the technology we have, it should be cheaper and easier to get a bean from Columbia to my coffee cup here today to why to go to $4. Our life should be getting cheaper. I should work less hours to have the same quality of life, but because of this monetary system. And so that's what, that's what bitcoin really represents. Now, is it too late at 60,000? Well, where could it go? Well, bitcoin isn't just a new technology. It's a lot of things. It's a new technology. But what it really is is competing against, is not technology companies. It's competing against value itself. So what you hear now is like, well, bitcoin is sort of like a store of value. It's a good place to save money. So you look at what are the store of value assets from a venture capital standpoint. If I, if I was going to pitch you on investing into my Ride Helene app, for example, you're like, well, how much is this app going to be worth? I'm like, it's a hundred million dollars. And you're like, what an app? Well, I'm going to disrupt the taxi industry. It's worth this much if I get 5%. The Disrupt the van share the limo If I get 5% of those markets, Right. So if we look at the value industry, what are the assets that we use to store value? So people park their wealth. They don't. Most people, most smart people don't store their money in dollars fiat. They store it in real estate. They store it in stocks, they store it in bonds, they store it in some in currency, right? So when you measure up those assets, you have about $350 trillion in real estate, you have about 120 trillion in fiat currency, you have about 150 trillion in bonds, you have about 40 trillion offshore bank accounts, you have about 30 trillion in fine art. Right? Fine art, collectibles, all these things that people store their wealth in it. It's about $900 trillion. Now the question from a venture capital standpoint would be, right Now, Bitcoin represents 0.1% of that. Could Bitcoin get 5% of that bucket? I mean, it's certainly better than an offshore bank account. It's certainly more portable than gold and fine art. It's more divisible than a, than a Mona Lisa or a car. So it seems pretty reasonable. It can get to 5%. I think you get to 7% within about 20 years. At 7%, that puts Bitcoin to about 13 million per coin. And I wouldn't say that's unreasonable. So we're at, I don't know, 55, 60,000 today. Is it, is it cheap or is it expensive? Compared to what? Well, compared to the 13 million it could be in 20 years. What other asset in the world could potentially go up at that high of a rate? So, and then just to throw one more thing here, another shrimp on the Barbie, and I'll wrap it up on this. But, but currently, right now, we're heading into an election year not to get into the election, but Donald Trump, per Nate Silver's election poll that came out about a week ago, is favored 60% to win the electoral vote. We can get into that whole. That's a whole. Another convers. But as of right now, so, so investing is always a game of probabilities. There's no certainties in life. It's probabilities. So he's predicted to win by 60% of the votes. 60% chance. The base case, if we will. He has said that he will put Bitcoin on the reserve balance sheet of the United States. RFK said he would do it. Now, RFK has joined his platform and Trump did a lot of things he said he would do last term. He probably would do that as well. Now, in the world of game theory, what happens is the world's competitive, but especially in the world of investing. So if a hedge fund were to add gold on its balance sheet and outperform other hedge funds, other hedge funds are like, shoot, I better add gold. If they add Bitcoin, they have to Bitcoin. El Salvador adopted bitcoin as a reserve standard a couple years ago. But El Salvador is one of the poorest countries in the world, so it doesn't influence a lot of other countries. However, what has happened there has been so transformative and phenomenal that other small countries are like, what the heck is going on? We need to learn this now. President Bukele has been going to lots of other countries and showing them, and now we have Omar and the UAE who are now moving on to a bitcoin standard. It's happening from a small level, but if the United States, the leader of the free world, the US Dollar, reserve currency of the world, if they put bitcoin on the balance sheet, what do you think the other nations of the world do? They all move, every single one of them. So Trump has favored 60% odds to win. He said he would do it. Maybe there's a 90% chance he does that. And if that happens, every other nation in the world moves on this and we're still sitting at 55,000. And so from a betting perspective, those are pretty good odds. Now if Kamala wins, that's a whole different story. But I think that could put bitcoin somewhere. And this is a broad rang because of the extraneum and circumstances we have, but between a hundred thousand to four hundred thousand by the end of next.

Year. It's inspiring because I interviewed Kevin Kelly and I don't know if you know, he's the founder of Wired magazine. I don't know, one of the big early Silicon Valley people that trained Tim Ferriss and he was just an outspoken person on the power of technology. And he said on the podcast, he's like, you know, technology is really just consciousness experiencing itself. And so when I think about bitcoin being a store of value, not dilutable. It's actually the equation, the lock and the key that everyone's searching for. Because this old money game, dude, we've seen our fathers and our mothers and our grandparents trade money for time. We've seen the pain and the torture that's caused them. And yeah, they're smart investors and the stock market is what it is. But this is really exciting because if you're in alignment with Kevin Kelly, it's essentially consciousness expanding itself so we can actually have this abundance that's all around us. It's like Bob Proctor says, you take from abundance. Abundance is still there. Yeah. And, and it's so crazy for people to have this mindset where it's.

Like, well, I have to have, I have to.

Hoard. I have to have like people that are preppers. I love you, Mike. You're a.

Prepper. But, but he's a prepper. But he has an.

Abundance. Of course. Mike is very diverse.

Fighter.

Yeah. But, but when I think about what Bob Proctor's saying and what Kevin Kelly is saying, it's like, like we're all pointing towards more connection to the creator, the creator self. I think God is actually bitcoin. I don't know if I've ever said that before. I definitely have not said that before. I think that the creator who gave us abundance and who we take abundance from and give back to because it's a never ending. Well, that's how abundance works. That actually bitcoin is a product of consciousness of our creator. That's what it seems like to me. That's what it feels like to me as.

Well. There's some interesting parallels there. There's a book written called thank God for Bitcoin. Really good book. It's about a four hour audible book if you want to listen to it. It's really, really good. But they lay out a whole bunch of parables. But a couple, couple parallels would be that, you know, God is truth, right? And per the Bible, right? God is truth. The devil is the father of lies. The devil only has deceit, right? So those are like different parallels, right? So truth versus lies. And if you think about our money system, so a lot of people think that money is neutral. Money's a tool. Money can be used for good and bad, right? It's neutral. It's not. Our fiat monetary system is evil. It's a system built on theft. Inflation is theft. It's a system built on lies and deceit. How many dollars are there? What's the monetary policy tomorrow? They're tightening. Really? Then why are they injecting money in the bank? Right? So the fiat monetary system is a system built on theft, lies and deceit, the tools of the devil. And so because of that, anything built on that is inherently evil. Now the flip side of that is bitcoin, which is completely open source, completely transparent, and it's code that can't be changed. It's truth. Code is truth and it's transparent. It's open. So it's not deceitful and it's not lying. It's the exact opposite. And I'm, I'm not saying that bitcoin is God, but the, but the parallels between the two are completely opposite of each other and run down that.

Track. Yeah. Maybe I can say a different way. Bitcoin is a creation or emanation of God. I'm not saying that bitcoin is actually.

God. Well, I mean, however, I believe that God, you know, God's a creator. We're made in God's image. We're creators. And we created, you know, man created bitcoin.

Right? Yeah, well, the imagination. And there's some theory that it's this satoshi person that created it, but no one actually knows. That's the crazy part about bitcoin. No one actually knows who created it, how it was created. It just kind of of came.

Up. It's not. That's not totally true. So what happened is there was a group known as the cypherpunk. So when the Internet started kind of taking off and. And really was in the late 80s and into the early 90s, this group of the cypherpunks became very worried about how do we, as we the people, keep our privacy and. And. And defend ourselves from this overreaching government that would in. Inevitably come. And so they created this like, mailing list, email list, and they would email, and they had, like, these message boards. And there was multiple attempts at creating a digital. Lot of people think that bitcoin is this like MySpace and then this Facebook is going to come out. That's not. That's not true. There was multiple iterations of digital currencies, but they. Each one failed. And there was multiple people that were working on this, and they were all on the same message boards on the email list, and they're all working together now. We know a couple people. How Finney, we know Nick Zabo, we know Adam back. They all worked on versions of this. Now a. An anonymous person, Satoshi Nakamoto, appeared into the message boards and started saying, hey, you guys did this. You did this. What about this? So they all started working together. And Satoshi Nakamoto, whoever this person, a group of people were, introduced some ideas that filled in gaps that these people couldn't see. But they all worked on it together and took. Let's take your idea that you had Adam back. You had hash cash. Let's take the hashing function. Let's take your signature thing. And then they put it together and they got it working. Then Satoshi Nakamoto disappeared. The anonymous figure that was known in the message boards, we know all the people that were involved. We know the process of how it got there. So it wasn't like someone magically appeared and just gave it to us kind of but it was. We did see this collaborative effort that happened. We don't know who Stoshi Nakamoto is. We. We're better off not knowing. We just saw the. The founder of Telegram get arrested in France, and the government will come for everything. Like Elon Musk is, you know, threatened to be arrested in multiple countries at this point. And so it's probably better off not to know who the founder is and not have a figurehead that can dictate this. We call it this, like, immaculate conception almost most. But. Yeah. So there is some mystery, but it's not quite as mysterious as people make it sound. But I think it's a good thing, not a bad.

Thing. Well, through the lens of truth and lies, like you talked about, if there was something that was being shined through that lens, it is truth. And then if truth is God, then bitcoin is an emanation of.

God. Yeah. The reason why it doesn't matter is because bitcoin is truth because it's open source. If it was proprietary code, then whoever found it is a big deal, because how do we know if they're trustworthy? Did they put a back door in? But because it's completely open source code, we don't have to worry about that.

That. Okay, so what are your thoughts on the AI emanation? Because if AI, you use AI in your business quite a.

Bit. Oh.

Yeah. Yes. Okay. And by the way, for y' all that are in any business, if you're not using AI, start right now, because the hockey stick, the Moore's law that's come. I mean, it's probably already quintupled 20x50x100x. AI is moving so fast that even when we have weekly meetings with our team, it's new every week. Yeah, every single week, there's a new platform, there's a new thing. Thing. So I think about the way that AI is also the technium that Kevin Kelly talks about. What's consciousness experiencing itself through technology. And if that's true, how do you blend AI and how do you blend AI with.

Bitcoin? It's a very, very big.

Question. How do you blend AI with conscious capitalism and conscious.

Entrepreneurship? It's a very big question. So something I. I spent a lot of time thinking about. I have a bitcoin VC fund. So we. We're sitting on the front end of this, funding these types of. Of companies. So what happens is about every 50 years, we have a cycle. I call it a quantum leap cycle. A lot of people may know it as A K wave, a conjoive wave cycle. So about every 50 years we have a technological revolution. There's been five. So 1778 we had the industrial revolution. Created machines that could do the work of 5,000 men. Then we had steam engines and railways. Now we can move stuff across continents. So, so each one represents a. A quantum leap for humanity. So for all of humanity, we could walk and have horses. And now we had trains that could move stuff across. It was a big deal. Then we had electricity, heavy equipment, and steel. Now we could build skyscrapers. Before we could build, build bricks. Two story size, like these were big shifts. Then we had 1908, we had the oil. Oil fuels, automobiles and mass production. So now all of humanity, people walked. Now we had cars. It was like a big deal. 1971 we had them birthed the microprocessor that brought us telecommunications, personal computers and Internet, big deal. So about every 50 years we have these. And what they represent is a cluster of technologies. Not a single technology. It's a cluster of technologies that what they do is they give us a new set of building blocks to build things we could have never imag imagined. Humans are not good at imagining the future. We all thought, you know, 30, 40 years ago we'd have flying cars. We don't have flying cars. Because what humans do is we imagine better versions of what we see today. But the new building blocks allow us to build things we didn't know. So for example, we don't have flying cars, but our cars to hook are hooked to something called a cloud, using social media to navigate us around traffic. We didn't even know what social media or cloud was. So how do we have known that? Right? And so we're witnessing a new new quantum wave leap right now. And there's a new cluster of technologies. It's bitcoin, AI and decentralization. And here's why this is important. Again, it's not just bitcoin. Obviously bitcoin's good AI, but it's, it's how they work together. So bitcoin has a lot of attributes and, and really bitcoin solves a lot of things that are impossible to do today. For example, how do I send 35 cents to somebody in another country? You can't. It's impossible. You can't do it. Our financial system doesn't. It costs 50 cents to send a transaction. How do I send 35 cents? I can't do it. So micro payments, you can't do them. Our, our system has a lot of censorship that's another topic. But also our system, the financial system. There's about 2 billion, about 1, 1 1/2 billion adults in the world today that do not have access to banking because they don't have permission to join the banking system. So our system is permissioned. So if you go open a bank account, you have to have a whole bunch of documentation and it requires you to be a person. People can open bank accounts. Bitcoin is both permissionless, borderless, and it's personless. So that means that a machine can have a wallet and do economic transactions. So now we have AI. Elon Musk said, By 2030, we'll have millions of robots that'll be down to about $20,000 each. You go to Phoenix right now, it's like overrun with autonomous robot taxis. The who's right? And so now we're at this point where these AI powered robot taxis could have their own wallets and could go do their own economic transactions on their own. What does that open up? So now already, and, and we can't imagine, but we were starting to get some ideas. So for example, using AI now, what a lot of people doing are building these AI agents. So you basically get like, I don't know if you've played around with that, but you basically build an agent that can do multiple things. So instead of just like waiting for one command, right? So I can create an agent that can do lots of things. For example, it can go do research on all these inefficient markets, it can go find all the betting ones, it can go back and do the research, and then it can place all the bets for me, for example, right? Prediction markets, things like that. And now it can have its own wallet and it can be buying and selling now in, in probably just a year or two, definitely before the end of the decade. What we'll see is an AI bot will go find the best performing company in the world. It will go hire other AI BO to write the copy, build the funnels, kick off the marketing campaign, fulfill the product, and AIs will be hiring other AIs to build businesses. And they'll do that because they'll have their own wallets powered by.

Bitcoin. So when do we upload to.

Skynet? I don't believe that. I don't believe in that future. I don't, I don't, I don't believe there's a point where computers take over intelligent humans. I don't, I don't, I, I don't think that.

Happens. And why do you believe that.

So strongly because I believe we are created by God and I believe that humans have creativity. Humans are creators, and machines work off ones and zeros and they don't have a spirit and they're not created created that.

Way. So you think the spirit will always trump a.

Machine? Yeah, 100%. Machines are work of ones and zeros. It's technical work, right? And so if you think about the difference of technical versus creative work, right. We supposedly have a technical brain and a creative brain, right sides of our brain. And our entire system was built for analytical thinking. And matter of fact, hundreds of years ago, they thought we didn't need the creative side of our brain. They do lobotomies on. It was insane. Our entire school system was designed for, for analytical workers. SAT scores, right? Doctors, lawyers, attorneys. It's all analytical. And that was important. My mom wanted me to be a coder when I was a kid or an engineer. But today I can hire an engineer for five bucks an hour because now what the Internet did, we've moved from the industrial age. Now we're in the information age. And in the information age, it takes creativity. And so I can now if I can see a problem and come with a creative way to solve the problem, then I can get the technical people to create a solution for that. And so machines are, they're technical, right? Ones and zeros. There's no creativity, there's no ingenuity. I believe the creativity comes from our creator. And I don't, I don't believe machines will get there now. Never is a long time. I think there's a couple caveats to that. Number one, I think if you look at AI today, I'm not an AI expert. I have a VC tech fund, so I'm sort of sit sit here, but I'm not that much of an expert. But I did get a sit down with Naval about a year ago and have a conversation with him and he's a prolific VC investor. And you have narrow AI and you have broad general AI, right? So NAR AI is where we train. Say I do a very specific task like drive a taxi or play chess or whatever. Broad a general AI is where it has to learn on its own, like a kid does, like a child does. Like, how heavy is this? Like how heavy compared to what? Like, how do you build a machine to like figure that out? Right. And so according to Naval and from my research, he said that generally narrow AI is making massive leaps and bounds, obviously, right? It's iterating every week. But general AI hasn't really improved much in the last several decades. And so we're not really any closer to that. Like, they're finding that, like, just one brain cell has so many facets to it that they can't even get a computer even close to that. So that's why I feel confident it's more of a worldview, I guess I would say, which is based off of, like I said, God being a creator and us being made that way. Way. And not everybody believes that, but that's. That's why I come to that.

Conclusion. Well, beliefs are really interesting because how does the belief make you feel? And what kind of quality does it create for your life? It's like everything's a story, right? Like, you're a character in a movie, man. Do you ever feel like that? Like, did you ever think you'd be Mark Moss with a radio show on podcast with millions of people teaching about these decentralized technologies? There's no way that could have come into your consciousness when you're nine years old on a.

Farm.

Sure. No.

Way. I wasn't on my job card when I was a.

Kid. Yes. So now, isn't it just so utterly fascinating that you're doing what you're doing now? Where do you think you'll be in 10.

Years? Years? You know, my daughter, who's now trying to figure out what she wants to do with her life, I. She gets stressed out. She doesn't know. And I'm like, babe, I didn't. I didn't know three years ago I'd be doing what I'm doing. Like, you don't know. You just figure it out. So, you know, my thing, and I said this earlier, my thing was always like, what is the lifestyle that I want and how do I live that? What do I do daily for work? That doesn't really matter. It's the lifestyle. So I know what my lifestyle will look like in 10.

Years.

Yeah. What will I be doing? I don't really know. I'm guessing I'll be doing similar things, but less but bigger. Meaning I probably have. I told my wife I probably have five more years of, like, going hard on shows and podcasts. And, I mean, I'm speaking once a month, at least, traveling. Right. I probably have five more years of that, and I'm going to probably pull way back on that. Not that I'll stop making content. I mean, I. I love, you know, educating doing that, but I'll probably pull way back on that. I'll probably increase the amount of deal flow that I'm doing. So like I love investing in these startup companies, I love building buildings and developments. I'm working on 25 acre development in Mexico right now. So I'll probably do bigger projects like that, but less running around and so I can enjoy my lifestyle a little bit more. So probably more time on the beach with my wife, more surfing, things like that. But yeah, I, I believe in building the world we want. And the world I want is to have this. Right now it's freedom tech, dissident tech as I call it. And so I'm really trying to spend a lot of money and time focusing on.

That. What do you mean by freedom.

Tech? What is that? Dissident tech. Right. So if you, the way that I sort of look at it like a frame would be that the entrepreneurs and the builders are the ones that build the world. We're the ones that solve the problems, create, have the creativity, we build the world. The, the, the politicians of the parasite class. Right. And if you think about it from this way, like an economy of, of people, of builders is, is a healthy, functioning person. And the politics is sort of like a parasite. And the goal of a parasite is to not overwhelm and kill the.

Host.

Yes. But if we look at like the Bolshevik Revolution, we look at ma Great Leap Forward or Hitler, the parasite is too restrictive and it killed the host every.

Time.

Yeah. And so politics is trying to find this perfect blend where they can suck off enough nutrients without killing it. And so, but what we're seeing right now is unfortunately in the west, this NATO sort of coalition, if you will, the globalist coalition, is that the blob or whatever we want to call it, is that it is becoming, the parasite is becoming too restrictive. And right now we talked about like banning bitcoin for example. The censorship that we're seeing I think is the greatest, bigger problem, the greatest, biggest problem that we're facing right now today. Censorship. And. But I'm bullish on humanity, I'm bullish on entrepreneurs, I'm bullish on when entrepreneurs backs are against the wall. And so as entrepreneurs, we need to continue building faster than the government can stop us. There was this quote I saw the other day and it said right now, somewhere in the world, right now today there's an, there's an entrepreneur thinking of a way to solve your problem, which is awesome. And also right now in the world today, there's a politician thinking about a way they can stop that person from doing it. And so we as builders need to out compete. We need to out build, we need to outpace what the government can do and we need to create tools that can restrict what they're able to do. So for example, Bitcoin. Right. So the governments, governments, all the governments will get all of their power from the ability to print money, the ability to lock you down and send stimulus out, the ability to create these censorship programs, the ability to hire 86, 000 more IRS agents to come, you know, find your 600 Venmo transaction. Right? All of those things come from the ability to print money. If we could create our own form of money and use that instead of theirs, we take away all their power. What would that do to reduce the size and scope and power of the government? Just that alone. Now they. Censorship is the number one thing now. Now Elon Musk is sort of taking the brunt of the world's, you know, force against that right now for us. But we just saw the founder of Telegram get arrested in, you know, France. So like they're coming hard for censorship. They want to put Elon Musk in.

Jail. On what grounds did they arrest.

Him? They said that he was not moderating the platform properly and people were doing illegal things with.

It. Huh. So he's held responsible for that. That'd be like me saying I have to control what goes on in the street.

Outside. No, it's like. It's like Chevy's response responsible because a terrorist drove a Chevy to a shooting or.

Something. So just some and imaginary.

Thing. It turns out that terrorist probably drank some arrowhead water on his way and that they're probably liable to. That's basically what they're saying.

Yeah. Now this is the overreaching that you're talking about, where the parasite, the only way it can live is if the host doesn't know it's sucking the.

Blood. And they have to. And they have to censor everybody. So nobody starts talking about. They need everybody to live a lie. Because if anybody lives the truth and everybody wants that truth. Truth, right. And this is, this is also part of the Marxist communist doctrine, right, where they need everybody to be conforming and be the same. So anyway, we have these problems and, and Elon Musk is not going to be able to withstand this for much longer. The lawfare is amazing. As a matter of fact, in Brazil now he's wanted for a rest. They just see Starlink's bank accounts, which is not Starlink, is different than Twitter, obviously, or X or whatever. So like it's, it's aggressively ramping up, Right. A rapid Rate. Kamala and Wallace are running on a platform of censorship, right? Saying they want to do that. So we need platforms that are not promising not to censor us, but we need platforms that are uncensorable. We have a new one. It's called Noster. It's a new protocol and it's very similar to, like, how email works, right? So, like with email, I have my email list and I can use a client, an app to send that email Gmail. But if. If I don't like Gmail, I used to do. I used to use mailchimp, but mailchimp didn't want me to talk about crypto, so they kicked me off. So I took my email list and I went to ActiveCamp Campaign. I could leave ActiveCampaign, I can go to ProtonMail. If I want privacy, I can go, right? And so NOSTR is a. Is a platform that's set up like that where you can build. You have this open communication platform protocol and you can build applications on top of it. So I can build it. There is right now one called Primal, and it basically looks just like Twitter. It performs exactly like Twitter, except for it's built on this Noster protocol. And what that means is that if Twitter, if this protocol wanted to charge me money like Twitter did, or censor me, I can just take my entire audience with me and just go to Twitter client number two or Twitter client number three, Twitter client four. And there's no founder to arrest. There's no Satoshi Nakamoto. See Satoshi Nakamoto. Back to being sort of this immaculate conception. Who are they going to squeeze to shut down the bitcoin network? And so now we have this communication architecture and I think, what does that open up? Well, we know, for example, probably, I don't know, hundreds of thousands of people, I would imagine, have been killed trying to smuggle bibles into communist countries, for example. But now we can take the entire Bible. It's already done, and it's put onto the bitcoin blockchain that's completely censorship resistant. And now it's complete digital. It's everywhere in the world. They want to take away our guns. Kamala says if they don't, if the Congress doesn't act to restrict guns or take away guns in the first hundred days, she'll move by executive order. Okay, so we know the governments are going to come for that. They all want that. Well, now they have 3D gun schematics, which are illegal and they want to censor that. But now they're put onto the bitcoin blockchain that they can't stop that. And what happens is technology moves faster than the government, and we see that it makes the government look both irrelevant and incompetent. So dissident tech. That's what I'm talking.

About. This whole conversation for me has been so exciting because it's about freedom, which is essentially. Ever since I was young, I was like. And my audience has heard this like a thousand times, but I'm gonna say it again. Adults were so stressed when I was young and people were fighting about money. It's like this existential tension that I knew even at a young age was complete bullshit and falsity. And the world that I think technology is opening up now is this world that I've known ever since I was a little kid that actually existed. A world of creativity, a world of truth, a world where we can be liberated, which is all that's our birthright. That's why we're.

Here. Yeah. That's what drives liberty in the pursuit of.

Happiness. That's what drives you to be an entrepreneur is freedom. Doing things of your own creation, expression and accord. And I think that's a great way to end the podcast right there. So how do you define this? How do you define liberty? How do you define liberation? Actually, let's go to liberation to be fully liberated. I believe we're only as liberated as our darkest secrets. And also a secret could be something that I know I must learn, that I refuse to learn. So how do you define liberation? Because at the end of liberation is.

Freedom. Yeah, I. When I think of freedom or liberation, I would just take it back to that. I think the word liberty, I mean freedom or liberation seems to be freedom from something. Liber. All of those words, liberated from something. Liberty. Right. So freedom from what, Lib? Liberation from what? And so when I think about that, one of my favorite authors, F. A. Hayek, H. E. Nobel Prize on authors, he wrote the Road to Serfdom. But his seminal book was called the the Constitution of Liberty. It was a seminal book. In this book, he had 1900 citations in nine different languages. No one will ever be that smart again. Anyway, I'm going to give his definition because it's my definition. And he defines liberty as freedom from coercion. Coercion being take the jab or lose your job. I'm given a choice. I'm given the illusion of choice. But both of those choices lead me to your illness ends. Right. Whether I choose, quit my job or lose take the jab, I don't like either of those options. I want option three. And so freedom from coercion, meaning that I have the right to choose an option that leads to my own ends in a place that I want to go. So that's how I would define it. Liberation would be, what am I liberating from? Am I liberating from drug addiction? But drug addiction doesn't allow me to choose something that I want, right? Because I'm addicted to that drug. So that's how. Probably how I'd frame that up. Freedom, liberty. And so the way that we do that is by optionality. Right? We're moving into a more uncertain world than we used to. Like, I mean, you know, Texas is sort of this B, this land of the free, but it's a battleground state right now. Texas is under serious attack. Will Texas stand? What if it doesn't? Then what? Where do I go? What about the U.S. right? And so this, like this world is very uncertain. Will they lock us back down? Will monkeypox be the next.

Thing?

Right. All these things and. And we don't know. We don't know. So the world's very uncertain. And so we want is. We want as many options as possible to. To handle that uncertainty. And then that allows me to have liberty. Because now I have that now back. Just taking it back to money so we can put a pin in this. I talked about at my ranch event this weekend. I said that most of you are slaves and you don't know it. And what I mean by that, and there's a way, a bunch of ways we can interpret that. But back to money, is that if you don't have. Have six months of living expenses saved up in your bank account, you're a slave. If you can't tell your boss f you, I'm out of here. You're a slave. Right? People have the way to treat you however they want, but you can't say no because you need the money. You have your own business, but you have these horrible customers that you hate and you can't fire them. You're a slave. And so really, you need really a base amount of money to then give you the options, to then have that freedom of coercion and not being forced to choose somebody else's.

Decision. Wow. In so many words, what I heard from you is that the end of liberation is just this agency of choice. Like you can actually choose something. You don't have to go option A or B. There's this C. Damn, that's liberating. I mean, that's what we all want. That's what we all deserve. So thank you for coming on the podcast.

Man. Yeah.

Thanks. Where can people find.

You? Yeah, Mark Moss on YouTube. You can find my stuff there, or you can go to1markmoss.com and I have everything linked there. I have a free ebook called how to Retire Tax Free off of Bitcoin that lays out a strategy, what Bitcoin is and how we can use it, where it's going and things like that. It's free. There's a calculator, so check that as.

Well. Look, I totally trust you. I went to your event. You're a phenomenal speaker. You're brilliant. I mean, there's a reason why you had the first radio show. This executive at iHeart saw something. And so thank you, man. Thank you for having the courage and the joy. It seems like you have a lot of fun in what you.

Do.

Yeah. So thank you for doing what you do in the world, man. Really appreciate.

You.

Thanks. Okay, until we see you again, again, we're both wishing you love and wellness and liberation. Make sure you share this with somebody who's been struggling with money. It is a wound among wounds among wounds. But it doesn't have to be that way. All right, y', all, we'll talk to you.