Tim Chang: Consciousness, Compassion, & What The World Needs Right Now | Wellness Force #Podcast

Just to give you a quick 10 minute synopsis, this is where we explore physical and emotional intelligence, the likes of which you have deep expertise in both. But I do believe that with the physical and the emotional, there's also a realm of higher power or spiritual, however you want to label it, however you want to compartmentalize it. So in the nexus of these three, I believe is wellness. And so we explore this concept of intelligence on the show. And intelligence is not how smart you are. Right. And so this is what we're going to explore today. The one thing that I want to ask in that same vein though is gratitude. You know what, if you had to put a finger on it, what gratitude do you actually feel today that's visceral.

That'S palpable in this specific moment right now? You know, gosh, where to start? It's like a multi dimensional layer of things that you could be grateful for. And I think it starts with noticing those things because when you tune into all the wonder there is in each moment, it just unfolds so many different layers to be even grateful for, which starts with just even noticing it. I have this kind of metaphor I use is maybe it's not about that the glass is half full or half empty. It's that, oh my God, there's a glass and holy cow, there's water. And that you can even put water in the glass. And that itself is a pretty major miracle as opposed to a glass being half full or half empty, if that makes sense.

Damn, I love it.

What I mean by there's infinite layers of things to have wonder for the fact that we're even embodied in this human form, that you can take a breath and within each breath, between each breath is a veritable lifetime potentially, if you're inhabiting it fully, right? And so, you know, on the surface levels, it's things like, wow, I have my health, that I don't have to worry about my housing, that the basic layers of Maslow's hierarchy of needs is satisfied. There's the blue sky, there's the nature around us, there's the people and the connections we have all those basic things to be noteworthy of, let alone the marvels of the technology and tools we have, our disposals, the fact that you and I can have this deep conversation remotely over pixels on the screen. So even those things are worth taking note of. Another analogy I like to use is what's kind of interesting about today's video games. They're so advanced, especially these sandbox games, even though they're geared for highly violent activities and things whatnot. But if you just stroll around the world of games like Red Dead Redemption just riding around on a horse, it's actually almost just as much fun to note the details of the leaves and the trees and the nature and the sounds of the hoofs of the horse as it trots along. Like, even that's pretty wondrous, let alone the main game line story, if that makes sense.

Yeah, it makes perfect sense. And I love your reflection because sometimes I get the sense that and many people we've had on the show share this, whether they see it through a lens of psychedelic therapy or just whether we're kind of marveling in the mystery, Tim, and that is, are we possibly in a simulation or a video game right now? Because, man, it sure feels like it sometimes. What's your take on that?

I have my pocket theory, which is, what if we are just the 3D creature simulations of four dimensional beings trying to figure themselves out? Because after all, what do we do? We try to understand ourselves and replicate ourselves by modeling out 2D objects. Right. We have, of course, they're represented in 3D, but it's typically on flat surfaces like screens. Right. So I'd imagine that even those four dimensional beings, they are themselves creations and simulacra of five dimensional beings trying to figure themselves out and on and on up the chain. Right. Of N dimensional space. So this is like kind of that version of the simulation version of the joke. It's turtles all the way down.

One of the things that I'm. I'm very enamored with you is your style of speaking. Like you have a deep academic background. And by the way, your story, which I want to explore, I mean, you went from the automotive to the product management, then to the vc, which that, that's not the traditional path. I mean, just that alone makes me curious about how you operate with such integrity and honestly, such warmth in an industry where it's all about zeros and ones, dollars and cents, cutthroat. I mean, it's absolutely insane. The people that I've known that have been in Silicon Valley and just that whole industry in general, like, to me, Tim, you seem like you are a breath of fresh air for that nexus of those things. What is it about you that allows you to breathe that way?

That's really kind of you to say. I don't know if I can fully live up to that. I try, I think. Whole lot of humiliating defeats, stepping a lot of potholes, making lots of mistakes, a lot of feeling like an outsider to the system, having a non traditional background. And in the end probably a whole lot of surrender. And what I mean by that is learning to surrender this attachment to my own story of who I am or surrendering this attachment of like anything that's been successful for me was because of my smarts or my doing. You know, it's both freeing but also very humbling, sort of, you know, I'm probably more the beneficiary of a lot more luck than I'd like to admit. And probably for me the last five years was again that big part of surrendering that attachment to outcome and the story of who, who I thought I had to be, you know, like ambitious, successful VC guy or something. And there was a lot of weight and burden in that role. And I realized I was creating this hefty weight on myself. I was the author of that narrative. And I guess I've really flipped around a lot. Back to the video game simulation analogy that okay, maybe this is all video game simulation doesn't mean it's pointless. And it doesn't mean that even though you don't believe in the point system or winning just to acquire points and badges anymore that you can't play to have fun. And so if anything, I maybe have changed my North Star or my, my wind condition in this game, which is maybe it's not about accumulating points and badges, but maybe it's to play like an art form. And so that's been my biggest reframing is that maybe there's no point to life other than it's just like art. Art exists just for the sake of expression. There's no point to it. There's not necessarily a career you need to build. It's just to find your own voice, your own medium and, and just make art, you know, wow.

But, but the managing director of Mayfield 5060 year old mega mega organization. So I would assume, I'm curious how you can provide us your take on this. Like I would assume that'd be difficult to have that kind of outlook and that kind of introspection. Honestly, this again, this breath of fresh air, I just keep feeling this from you. How do you maintain that in an industry where it is about bottom line zeros and ones and at times can be very cutthroat.

It can. And I think you have to have faith that what it's really about is again back to this notion of as an artist, there's room for all kinds of art. The key to success is not emulating someone else's style or looking over the rear view mirror, looking over your shoulder, what are they doing, who's behind me, who's out to get me, but just refining your own voice and being in alignment to what your mission, your purpose, your style is. There's probably room for infinite styles of investment or artists, provided each person finds their own voice. And that's what I've been thinking and learning more in this field is that rather than being paranoid about competition, it's more what do I stand for? Why am I doing this? We obsess so much over the who and the how much and the what and the specifics, but rarely do we ask the why. And something I found in my 20 year career as a VC was anything I thought was a slam dunk. Any formula I had for success always got shattered. Anything that was more out of curiosity or a sense of play or wonder or even a flyer was the something that took off. And so I think that was also deeply humbling. And what I realized too is maybe it matters more. The why am I investing in this? And if it's not just for the ones and the zeros and the dollars and the points on the board, but if it could be more in service to something, then perhaps that is a better orientation. And when I mean service, I think in my earlier days I just cared about putting points on the board. I was living out of scarcity, out of fear, just trying to prove I could make it in this tough industry. And then over time I gave up trying to copy what competitors were doing or keeping up with the Joneses, so to speak. And more just like, what do I stand for? What interests me? And then with that came a question of what best serves people, what best could serve humanity. So these days, a question I ask a lot more even, will this be profitable? Could this be a unicorn? Is actually is this good for humanity? Is this good for the planet? You know, so imbuing that sense of like, yes, it is a for profit business and there's fiduciary responsibility, but underlying that, can you of service with for profit business? Can business be a change, a force of change for good? Can it create things that provide more meaning, more love, more empathy, more connection can be better for the planet? I don't know, I still want to believe you do well by doing good. And so that really underscores what I look at these days and I think that's given me a breath of fresh air, that it helps me tune out all the noise. Missing out on the next TikTok or Whatever. To just look at it like, yeah, that could be profitable. Is it good for people? Is it really good for people?

Such a great question. And this is what strikes me about you is. And really, like, I'm flashing back to awakened futures, that in San Francisco, where I first saw you spoke, and the way that you talked about the new version, the new paradigm of capitalism, of conscious capitalism, you strike me as a philosopher. I mean, I feel like you're a philosopher. First, you talk about consciousness a lot in media, but then also, this is why I think you are that breath of fresh air. You're in a world of money, the nexus of philosophy, consciousness and money. Who would have thought that there'd be someone there to be a beacon of truth? Like, to me, that is what the world needs right now. Like, how do you grow your narrative in the media? Obviously podcasting is one thing, but how do you grow this narrative of consciousness and really being a force of good for the world using money?

Right, right. And your question is really valid because it's always been assumed capitalism creates trauma, and it has over history, and that money is the root of all evil. But what if we view it like technology? It's not good or bad objectively, it's just a tool. So then the only root question is, what is your energy? What's your intention with which you yield these tools? Right? And that is the inner work of looking at yourself. So that's why I. I do keep introspecting a whole lot. What I realize is that there's no work or. Sorry, there's no separation between work as well as work and personal. There's no work life balance, because your work is a reflection of who you are in life. And your inner work, as within, so expressed without. So it all stems from how you are on the inside. If your energy is nervous or insecure or jittery or fearful, you will express that in all your interactions with your teammates at work, with your customers, with your spouse. Right? And so that gets transmitted outwards. So the real work starts with the deepest personal work. Understanding your own attunement, your core wounds, how you've integrated those, your shadow sides, your biases, your lineage, because that will express out in all that you do. And that actually has given me kind of a lens through which to view business and also founders. I think all businesses, all organizations, are an expression of the founders and the management's inner energy. And so if you tune into that, that's truly what shapes culture and values. And so ultimately, the real questions are, who are you and what's your why inside? Because that will resonate and shape everything else that you do.

If you see money as energy, and I love what you said, because if somebody's energy is a signature that's painted all over the company, it's how they live with their wife or their husband or it's how they live their life. Money is energy. You know, it could be that simple for so many. Yet, Tim, there's this pain body that I think so. Eckhart Tolle talks about this, the rippling of the pain body. And with money specifically, I think so many men and women have just a wound around money. Like, have you ever had that in your life? And how did you get through that if you did?

I grew up, you know, the son of immigrant academics. We didn't have a whole lot growing up. My first housing was graduate school dorms housing because I don't think I was a planned child actually when my parents were young, you know, doctorate students and so kind of grew up without having a whole lot. So there was that trauma growing up. I remember going to elementary school and getting teased by other kids because, you know, they had little horses and polo people on their shirts and I had little dragons from Sears, Roebuck or whatever. And so, you know, that was some of my first memories of understanding what money trauma was. I couldn't afford nice clothes like the other kids had and always was like, wow, what's wrong with me? And so I think, you know, there was a part of me that wanted to avoid money thinking like, well, I didn't have it. I had to earn things on my smarts and hard work, you know, screw them, right? But. And then there was a part of me that then later shifted, like, I wonder if I could make money if I tried to as a curiosity of could I get it. I always wanted to view myself as not money oriented. But then there was a part of me that thought, well, money doesn't necessarily buy happiness, but it can afford some freedom and maybe some especially freedom from scarcity mindset potentially, right? So I have always thought about this. Then I'd like to acquire money but as a tool and a resource to amplify back out to others. And so what I think most about money these days is how to actually give it away in the most impactful way, how to have it be an evergreen asset, to amplify it back out. And personally, I hope to die with zero in the bank. But what I'd like to do is have as much amplified impact with that to pay it Forward. So my new view of it is this money was never for me. I'm just a steward of it, to try to re amplify it back out and do as much good as I can. During my time here, it was nice to prove that I could make it and generate it. Now I don't have to worry about that in the sense of, like, I know how it's generated and created, but now it's sort of great. What positive energy can we apply towards it?

There had to have been a massive shift inside of you, or maybe it was cumulative. That led to a tipping point where you started to actually see money in the way you've just described. What was.

Yeah, it took a while. It was. I'll be candid, was like making that first million or two, because I never, ever thought I would have achieved that in my life. You know, just like that was such an abstract amount to me. And then to hit it and to realize that's not such a big deal. It's just a tool, and money begets money, and it's a tool to create more of it. Yes, you could be on the rat race of just accumulating more of it, but why? And, you know, I went through a phase of accumulating, you know, shiny toys and, you know, I got a Tesla, and I was like, oh, it's cool to have a nice car. And then the big awakening, too, was like, oh, my God, your possessions come to possess you. And just notice the amount of headaches that all these things had. Big houses, you got to fill them with furniture. You nick the wall, you know, like, damn it, I got to fix that. You know, you have a nice car. You're more worried about it getting dented than enjoying it. And so, you know, these days, I'm just thinking about, how do I purge my possessions? How do I give them away? How do I donate them? How do I loan them to the community? How do I get others to get more benefit out of them than me? So I think a big part of this has been freedom from the burdens that possessions and money can create for you.

Yeah.

Trying to get to that.

When you speak about this, you know what. What I feel is I feel that just in my community here in Southern California, you know, San Diego is close to Los Angeles. Los Angeles and New York are considered to be, like, the epicenters of creation in the United States. And a lot of people that are in these areas, L.A. and New York specifically, money is king. Money is everything. I mean, it becomes this golden carrot that people Just chase for a lifetime. And then if you look at the books on the regrets of dying, it wasn't ever about like more time spent at the office or more money that they made. Yet there is this, you know, there's this Goldilocks zone where I think most people want to be Tim, and that is leading a life of purpose, making enough money to be outside the lower levels of the Maslow's triangle, but then also taking care of pursuits of creativity and enjoyment and love and connection. Like, what are the ingredients to that for us here in this modern world?

Great, great question. You know, I used to say everybody's first quote, unquote job is just get out of scarcity so that you can at least have, you know, maybe a good living and have more room to be abundant to find your form of and then find out how to turn that play into service. And a couple of ways to do that. It could be accumulation of money, but it could also be simplifying your life. You know, I think there's a shift towards living in community, intentional communities, co living, that's another way to do it. So instead of everybody trying to get their own white picket fence and McMansion and have their own car, you know, maybe living in community, like how humans were wired to be in tribes and villages before, is a way to provide connection and reduce that individual financial burden. Like these days, I think a lot about, I don't know if I want to buy anything or have possession unless it can be shared with, unless it's for like group use, you know, that would be more pleasing than having it for myself. Right. And so I could see a return to more intentional communities, the co living where you're sharing assets, you're raising kids together, you know, not worried about just maximizing your own space and in your own set of possessions. So that could be one on reducing that cost structure. There's also a demand for people to be more nomadic. You know, like they're global nomads that are working more digitally and remotely. But another thought I had too was that perhaps if you're really tuned into your form of play and your form of service, that you'll attract that income. It'll almost be a happy byproduct of all these other things that you're tuned with. That's my hope. It's not always that way because I have a lot of friends who are brilliant healers and artists and poets, and they have fear of money. They don't necessarily feel entitled to ask for it or to be paid for what they're worth. And so that's something I try to do in mentorship. On the side is this coaching of you don't need to have this poverty consciousness. There's no need to ascribe to the narrative that you don't deserve money or that it will corrupt you completely.

So then where does that actually come from, Tim? Has it come from lineage? Does it come from past life? I mean, is it epigenetically enforced in the brain? Is it activating our default mode network so we're constantly seeking out evidence that we're in scarcity?

I think it's because capitalism has had centuries of traumatic effects, you know, in the pursuit and accumulation of that money, feared based on fear and scarcity mindset. And so people have been victimized and traumatized by that. And so the response is, I don't want money. It'll be corrupting at all levels. I just want to avoid the system altogether. But perhaps it's not so much that answer as, again, seeing it as just energy and a tool and being super clear with your own energy of how you would wield it and how that you could attract it and generate more with it, but. But deeply aligned with your purpose. I think if you don't have that clear attunement of. With yourself and what you stand for, then yes, it could be corrupting.

Yeah, I just got a full body chill. I know everyone watching and listening did too. Because money has been the topic for so many people when I've worked with clients even in my own life. You know, to break 10k a month was like a godsend to me. I never thought it'd be possible just to make $10,000 a month. And then once I broke through that, I'm like, okay, well, I just, I just. That's my baseline now. I'll never get lower than that because I know it's possible. Do you feel like in the same way, in therapy, Jordan Peterson talks about this systematic desensitization where we go to the thing that scares us. We systematically train our psychology, our synapses, to be able to handle that load. Could money be the same thing? What would systematic desensitization look for allowing money in?

Great question. So there's a couple effects that are kind of interesting, is that, you know, if you give, if you double somebody's paycheck, they somehow always automatically double their spending of it. So it's sort of like, you know what I mean? Our. Our mindset.

The cost of living creep, right?

Yeah. It gets adjusted to that salary level. And somehow with that spending just floats up in line with it. It's just human nature. It happens all the time. I see it with companies too. When they get a ton of funding, they just suddenly start spending more on fancy artwork in the hallways and in all sorts of like, you know, gourmet catering. And just it's, it's that notion that you expenses to match that level of that income regardless of your attempt at discipline. Right. So that's one form of desensitization to it. There's a similar parable on bandwidth. If you had like 6G networks of bandwidth, we'd find ways to use all that bandwidth tomorrow, you know, streaming, VR or something else like that. Right. So we'll always use, we'll always take as much as we can get. And so part of that is figuring out where does that come from? What is that longing? What is that hunger? How do we let go of that a bit and base it more on what do you actually need? What is it that truly serves you? I will say this is a bit of a disease even in the venture capital investment management side. The way the structures are set up, you take this fixed percentage management fee, typically 2% of the assets you manage and you take this 20% profit share, it's called the 2 in 20 model. Right. But if you were working on just hey, I'm just going to give you 2% of however much money you manage, then isn't your incentive to manage as much money as possible? Right. As opposed to being based off a budget? And I've always found that so weird in even the investment world is why is it just this arbitrary flat 2%? I suspect actually historically it's just because some of the first people to manage money, their investors say, all right, what kind of fee do you want to take? And I don't know, how about 2%? Okay, sounds good. And it just stuck, this sort of anchoring effect. And just very rarely do we just ask why is it that way? And go back to first principle and say, hmm, maybe we should do this on a budget as opposed to just like 2% off the top, you know what I mean? Yeah.

Well, you're such a emotionally intelligent man because the way that you self reflect in all phases of your life, you know, health, wealth, I'm sure relationships, not just relationships with others, but relationships with you, with yourself. What can you share about this self reflection aspect? And I want to go back to the money piece because I just feel like there's a residue there still for somebody with us, for somebody Listening. If somebody has that pain body that they feel or that limiting belief that they actually feel, what are the thoughts and the beliefs that you've seen, not just maybe in your own life, but just in general around money that people could possibly identify with and let go of?

Yeah, for sure, for sure. It's something I wrestle with a lot. I didn't come from a whole lot growing up, but ironically, my family lineage had some pretty prestigious folks in their background. We got cut off from that when my family immigrated to the US But I just never kind of expected that I would be entitled to a whole lot. So my narrative was like, you got to fight, you got to crawl every inch. You got to struggle, right? And it was always my narrative, too, was my parents told me, just get good grades and then get a good job. Truth is, the way money works, that's not really what it's about. Just having a job will never truly get you financially ahead. It's about being a creator. It's about being an entrepreneur. It's about mapping your own destiny back. That notion of, like, if life is an art form, it's not taking someone else's art class, it's taking those art classes, but mashing them up and figuring out your own medium, your own voice. So really, everyone's true job is to be an entrepreneur in their own way, to figure out their own voice, their own medium, starting from their own purpose and their own values, their. Their why. And then from there, like an entrepreneur, be creative about how you can attract money. I've had an idea, too, which is that what you do to earn money doesn't have to tie to what you do for work necessarily. In my life, I originally wanted to be a performing artist. I wanted to be a musician. I want to be an actor. Until I realized trying to make a L off of that is really, really hard.

The stress of that could potentially kill the love for the craft.

It did. I had a band that. We were booked as the house band at the Hard Rock Hotel in Bali. Dream gig. You know, being flown there, being in residence, playing. Until I realized, oh, my God, I have to play Tracy Chapman's Give Me One Reason seven times a night. The audience, you know, come up on stage, and I was like, I hate playing music for money. You know, that just destroyed my love for it altogether. And, you know, I'm lucky. Now I have a day job that does okay. But I'm more active in music now than ever because I'm freed from having to generate income from it.

I have a question I have to ask you because in the creation of this lifestyle, and I love how you're explaining it, the entrepreneur who finds their love and this new concept of not making money by doing something that you love so you can afford the space to do what you love. Don't you believe that there is an energy bleed though? Because in order to really create and, and really be in that place of abundance and revenue, to me, in my experience, and I'm open to this changing, it takes so much energy and chi from us to generate that that I could almost think that one might have such a hard time creating that. That disparate space between earning money so one can fuel their dream versus having their dream be the way they make their money. Can you go into that a little bit?

That's totally true. That's a great, great example. Um, this is something I've been working with some friends on to try to create more money literacy. It's. Here's the weird part about money. It's not taught in schools. I went to Stanford Business School. They didn't really teach us how to manage personal finances. Or.

Are you kidding me?

No, it's just not taught. It's also a taboo topic. That just taught my. I've been trying to get friends together to literally have financial hacking dinner salons and just open source, talk about it, open the components, like, hey, what do you do with your money? What do you invest in? How do you manage it? And just crowdsource and share the learnings. It's the weirdest that we don't talk about it. And it's probably the thing we need to teach children and each other about and artists and healers and folks that are dedicated to their craft. More and more about, first, get rid of the taboo that money is bad, it's damaging. And then second, increase the literacy of like, this is the way money operates. These are different models for it. These are different ways you invest it. This is how it compounds. These are different business models and revenue streams that can come with it. So it's just getting rid of the fear and then showing people, hey, there's many ways to do it. And you kind of hack some of them together. In fact, you can kind of mixtape them together. So you have this revenue stream from here and that kind of, you know, is a complement to this other revenue stream there. So it's a creativity of a different form. Recognizing that it's just a tool, it's just an energy. You don't have to be enslaved to the pursuit of it, but you could employ it with different structures and, you know, maybe we could have shared platforms and tools and knowledge that we use to help each other out. Because there's so many ways to actually make money out there. You can be creative even about that once the fear is gone.

A philosophical question that I'd love your insight on is if energy and money are really just the same and human nature is this evolutionary curve where we're figuring out who we are really at every moment. Tim, Every moment I'm figuring out who Josh Trent is. I'm sure you feel the same. So with those two, with those two blended energies where, you know, money is energy, human evolution and the understanding of ourselves and consciousness is another, do you think that those two will at some point in our lifetime be egalitarian? Can we make conscious capitalism in our lifetimes something where the evilness of money is taken away? Or do you think that's part of human nature where the evil will always be there?

I love that question. I fundamentally believe that we have altruism baked into our genes. We can find better structures and models to do this. Case in point, I don't think for profit businesses or models are bad inherently. It could be the way we exercise them. Another way to ask that is where's all the profit going to if it's just there to be consolidated in the hands of one or two people? Maybe that's not the best model because that's just about zero sum accumulation, right? What if there are for profit models that are a little bit more regenerative, that feeds a big chunks of those profits back in the form of donations or tithing or grants or whatnot? Could we blend the worlds of what for profit and nonprofit are, so that for profits are more responsible members of their community, more responsible members to planet Earth, that shareholders and inclusive stakeholding includes even Mother Nature as an owner on the cap table or maybe future generations or maybe, maybe disadvantaged populations. Right? Because I think the realization is a company doesn't operate in a vacuum of just the management, investors and customers. It is a member of a local community. It is a member of Mother Nature overall. It has a footprint ecologically. And so how do we make sure that it's not just shareholders, but stakeholders? And this was a topic at Davos this last year, which is so encouraging, this move away from just, just shareholder capitalism, which is just a handful investors, more towards broader stakeholder capitalism. That's the broader community, the planet, the populations, you know, the ecosystems of people. That could be a way to make it more egalitarian. To your question and a way to, you know, have it be more generative and benefiting more than just a couple.

People with the ventures that you have. There's so many fascinating ones. My favorite is Trip, the mind altering technodelic VR company. And the way that you even have another company too. The Grove. Collaboration, Growth, Collaborative. These healthy products that you're giving, these healing tools that you're giving. One of the things that I used to talk about on Wellness Force for the first two years of our broadcast was wellness technology. You know, the blending of the technology and actually helping humankind. And I then soon realized when I was on stage at CES and I was leading panels and I was understanding that so much of the driving force for unfortunately many of these companies was just the revenue it wasn't really about. If you looked at the founders, their personal health, they weren't an ambassador embodiment of their health. And it goes back to what you said, where if there's an energy about somebody at the top, it's going to bleed to the whole company. My question for you is this. When we look at wellness Technology now in 2020, what is the most, what tugs on your heart the most? What makes you the most excited about wellness technology now in 2020?

A couple things. I think we have a few vectors we're starting to get people aware that they need help on. The 80s was about physical fitness, right? And then the 2000s, 2010s have been more about mental wellness and now em emotional fitness. Right. Things like meditation and flow and those sorts of things. But I'm interested now that people realize, oh, I should sleep eight hours a day. So we're going to see rise in things like sleep coaching. We're going to see more support systems for relationships, family relationships and parenting as well, how to be better parent for newborns as well as have better dialogues with each other, nonviolent communication dialogues. So I think we're going to see more use of technology and coaching meshing together to provide more support systems for humans as we try to up level ourselves. So I'm a big believer in what I get, I would call tech augmented coaching that could use technology to help us be the aspirational versions of ourselves that we want to be. Right now the story has been tech is making us disconnected. It's horrible. These devices are making it right. But again, it's a tool. We could use technology to also make us better versions of ourselves as well, you know, and that's what I'm pretty excited about.

I love this because we had Kevin Kelly on the show three months ago and he explored this concept with us about the technium. You know, technology is an expression of consciousness itself, which was utterly fascinating to me because I realized that it's not the phone that makes me disconnect, it is my discipline and my awareness about how I use my phone. Like, let's just put that out there, people. That's what's really going on. And so there are, there are some things though, Tim, and this is my question for you. There are some things. When we look at the work of Charles Duhigg or even we had Near Eyal on the show, these companies, Facebook and Google and Apple specific specifically, they hire behavioral engineers to make sure that people are addicted as humanly possible. What do we do about that as a collective?

It stems from the business model. The business model drives everything. I have a lot of friends who work at these big platforms. They're not malicious, they're just optimizing the playbook they were handed. The first principle's question is, is that the right playbook? Right. And what I mean by that is these business models, when you are selling people's attention to others by nature, you're doing cognitive strip mining on them, right? You're taking their attention, you're fracking it and selling it out to others, farming it out to others. You're not truly serving your customer. You're giving them something fun and addictive and like a digital opioid, but you're not truly serving their true interests of what's best for them. So the next act of companies what could unseat Facebook or Google is perhaps something that is truly just your advocate. That you have behavioral engineers all there trying to help you keep on the rails of the goals that you set for yourself and, and that no one sees your data but you, that it's all based on your wishes, your input, with guidances and nudges throughout the day. And chances are this will not be a free advertising based model. It'll probably be more like coaching or subscription based. But it's there completely, utterly, just in service to you, to make you who you want to be based on your goals.

What do you see that being? I mean, what's your. If you could wave a magic wand, sure. What would that look like?

Here's a. Here's. I'll paint a couple pictures for you. I've used this example before, but imagine something that's kind of like Alexa and you've got your calendar into it. It's got your top five goals on what you want to do lifestyle wise. It studied your patterns and behaviors, doesn't share with anyone else. It's not trying to sell you stuff, it's not selling advertising for anybody else. It's just there for you. It's maybe a coaching type subscription model and it says, Josh, hey, I noticed you're binge watching altered carbon season two. It's awesome and all, but hey, it's 11:30pm you remember when together it's. Yeah. And it would say remember we set together at the beginning of the year that you really want to up your sleep to seven and a half hours of quality cycles. Your calendar says your first meeting tomorrow is 8am you need to go to bed now. I'm turning out part of the house. Go to bed. And so you could joke that it's like a digital nanny, but it would provide these nudges and maybe even take away these impulse temptations to help us stay on the rails of the goals we set for ourselves. Right. The next version of this, if you remember the movie her, we're getting there. Apple AirPods, that's an example of hearables as a compute platform. If we had these in our ears all the time, imagine little micro nudges that it's there for you. It's not selling any of your data to anyone else. It's just there trying to be your personal pocket coach. And it says, Josh, you're having a heated argument with your partner right now. I noticed that your phrasing starting to get a little elevated for this. Next thing you're going to say, why don't you try phrasing it this way? You know it. Imagine the benefit of like a therapist or a relationship coach in your ear at all times. Like I would love that. I've done so many workshops and things like imago and nonviolent communications and I can't remember how to access those tools in the heat of the moment when I'm triggered emotionally. Yes, I practice those in coaching and therapy sessions, but I wish I could have that nudge in real time. Especially when I'm like getting pissed off at my 7 year old daughter or something like that. You know what I mean? That'd be an example of something in your ear helping you with those dialogues and reframing things because I'm a huge believer it's not what you say, it's how you say it. And just teaching us even little reframings and nudges how to say things in more effective ways makes all the difference in the world to the health of our relationships.

I really enjoy your perspective and I want to provide a different mirror too, because we've explored internal locus of control and external locus of control, specifically with the interview with near two years ago. And in my opinion, I found that in my own life, when I'm connecting to community, that fortifies my values about how I eat, sleep and move and how I believe, think, feel and act. When I'm doing that, to me, at least it's been way more powerful than an AI or hearable or anything else. Do you feel like these tools could really just be a stepping stone for behavioral modification to get people to connect to community so they don't always have to depend on the device?

That's what they really should be? I think these tools, these technologies, are kind of like training wheels to develop the sensitivity, awareness skills and intuition that we would call wisdom that then gets embodied and practiced. But the learning curves of these are sometimes really hard. And like you said, I do believe community and connection is the ultimate cure for depression, anxiety, disconnection, all these things. We're wired for community. So as we shift towards more intentional living structures, co living, co working, those will help a lot. And you know, the thing is, when you do live in a community house, that can be tough too. And so perhaps these tools can help us smooth our relationships in those areas as well. Especially, you know, if they're really our advocates and helping us. Right? So I think a lot about that.

What is your. If you had to advocate for one thing, and I know you advocate for many, but if you were positioned in a corner and someone said, what is your number one thing in the world that you are advocating for now? Like, what is that?

That for you right now? It's how do we give tools and frameworks and support and resources to help people do this inner work so that their outer work flows from that. I now realize there's again, no differentiation between the me to the we to the all. And so how do we start with the me, get everyone healed so that they're free to discover their form of play, and then have them resource enough that they can put that play in service to something bigger. And so really with that, the way I want to figure out a structure for that is I have this dream that we would have these ethics pledges in all different businesses. Kind of like there's a Hippocratic oath for doctors, right? What would that look like for investors? What would that look like for founders? My friend James Joaquin at Obvious Ventures helped pioneer the world positive term sheet it's not economic terms, but it's values terms. And it's a dialogue investors have with the founders that these are values we stand for. How about you? Does that resonate with you? Which ones? If so, how. How would you bake them into your operating principles of the company? And then to go one step further, like Grove did, could you even put that in the charter of the company? Like a B corp structure? Right. So I'm thinking a lot about how do we turn values and principles more from just bullshit kind of abstract, you know, like fortune cookie talk, to things that we really live, embody and put into practice, maybe even into corporate structures, stakeholding structures, you know, ethics pledges we sign, you know, and, and have community, peer pressure on, like a positive kind of culture around. Around this.

Yeah, creating the culture that's really. I just got another full body chill. Because what we've created this year is we purchased Breathwork IO, we have the BREATHE program, we're integrating the CBD vape, the safe vape technology. We're combining all of these things that are, I guess you could say, trends. Like, what's more trendy right now than cbd? I think it's on everyone's tongue. Right? But, but I found a way. And we work with Dr. Lynn Morsky from ThePlantMedicine.org and we found that when we did do the safe vape and we combined it with the, the breathing, it produced so much more relaxation and so much more longer creative states that I actually am looking now for somebody that might want to do a clinical study on it, or somebody that might want to actually prove scientifically beyond just our anecdotal groups that we've had. And so this is what's most exciting for me too, is how do we use these ancient tools? You know, community and connection is one of them. Our breath is another. The power of plants, whether it's cannabidiol or whether it's ayahuasca, this is a realm that you play in so much. Can you share with us about tripping? Can you also share with us about this concept that honestly is pretty brand new and it's really funding the psychedelic movement too?

You know, I think we're going to see technologies that try to approach the edges of what these medicines can provide in terms of perspective shift and consciousness expansion, and those could be good training wheels into deeper self inquiry, whether that takes you in the realm of plant medicines or meditation or whatnot. Right. And so that's, again, can we employ technology in the service of Expanding consciousness, shifting perspective, you know, kind of elevating awareness. That was sort of the thesis behind Trip is that could it give you some of the slight benefits, preview benefits of what an ayahuasca sitting would be like, but in a digital, immersive environment. And then someday in the future, as these modalities get legalized, you can imagine the merging of technologies old and new, from plant medicines to augmentation of journeys with sound, with sight, with haptic feedback, et cetera, to provide, you know, kind of additional augmentation for even set and setting or, you know, kind of the healing power of these. So, you know, Adam Gazalie at UCSF is studying the stacking of these different modalities together. But I'm a big fan of the notion these are just all tools and technologies. And the fun part is as we mash them up, do more clinical studies, understand the A B testing effects of how they work with each other. Right. Someday we'll even, maybe even have, have like clinically validated playlists for journeys, you know, and this is where machine learning can get real interesting because it's studying, you know, real time biofeedback of all different people and it can help with personalization, can help with understanding efficacy in different vectors. So like, this can be a smorgasbord of learning between all of the biofeedback sensors we have and all these different modalities that we play with.

You've been to Burning man multiple times. How many times total?

Probably 10.

10 times?

Yeah.

So your journey in really understanding of money and potentially in these entheogens. Right. And also just walking the path of being conscious about the way that you consume things and just the way that you lead your role with your company. How do you continue to maintain the North Star, the integrity piece? Like, what does that actually even mean to you when it comes to these psychedelic therapies? How do we maintain integrity as we fund these and as these things, things grow?

So I've been helping with the creation of a trade association in this field and it's a bit of a moonshot because typically trade associations are often created after the fact. But this is an attempt and it is called North Star, actually that trying to create values aligned, ethics driven trade association in advance of the coming of that industry. Because already we're seeing former cannabis and crypto bros throwing psychedelic investment summit. Like, here's where to get in, here's what make money with the same mercenary transactional energy that kind of pervaded cannabis and crypto. And to me, kind of ruined those movements. We don't want to see that happen with this field because it's got so much potential. But something I think a lot about is that shouldn't we see business and commercialization take place that embodies the same values and insights that those medicines would provide. Connectivity, empathy, inclusivity, justice, compassion. You know, shouldn't that be the way that business is wielded with the these. It's really made me think a lot about my own levels of privilege, my lineage, you know, how can I be more inclusive, how can I better foster diversity, how can I make these things more accessible to more people than just the standard playbook of like, oh, we'll start with rich people, they'll help subsidize the cost curve for everybody.

Eventually, yeah, there's the trickle down and then there's the being with what is and the being with what is. I feel like right now the majority of people who are suffering and who need the most assistance and the most help are the ones that are economically impoverished. You know, those are the ones that really need the help. And so that's why with Wellness Forest, and I'm curious how you feel about this with your work. This is why we really want to serve people where they actually are. Instead of like you had just said, go to the people that have the most money. I create products and I help people connect to products that are actually affordable based on the mass population. Because I don't believe people can afford 2,000, $5,000 at a time. Which is why we made the program $90, $97 so that people can actually use this for the long term. But how do we do this? How do we price things specifically when we look at Tripp or even the natural products delivery that you have, how do you go about pricing things so that we can help people where they are that need it the most?

I think we'll see more innovations in pricing models. There could be sliding scales, there could be buy one, give one, there'll be, you know, PVCs, B Corps will be foundations, I think for profit companies set up specifically to help with the accessibility part. So dream is that we see the for profit nonprofit worlds merge a bit more in terms of these hybrid models. So there's always this notion of giving back more regenerative economic models in there as well. Now I always get the criticism, well, what about like the companies like Uber who will just do hyperscale and drive costs down to the lowest? There's always going to be that threat. Actually. Oren and North Star this group I've been helping out published a wonderful story called we will call it Pala P A L A, which painted a very vivid, detailed picture of if there was an uberization of, you know, psychedelic clinics and what that nightmare that could look like. And part of addressing this too is that we prop up new innovative models and set positive culture from the start so that you've got these templates for others to learn from versus just the typical tech bro, scale, fast, break things at all costs kinds of model. I think the world is ready for that too. We've seen the effects of break things go fast, hyperscale, I like to say. Instead of growth at any cost, how about health at every scale? You know, in health, meaning viability and balance and sustainability. With this realm, what it might mean is instead of massive mega clinics that are venture funded, maybe they're local, community focused clinics that are community funded. Maybe with models more like microlending like Kiva or my favorite. There's a great example steward, my friend Mark Weinstein's working with them on regenerative agriculture. It's like a crowdfunding platform for independent regenerative ag farms that's got a viable business model and that also gives them tools with software technology for farmers to run their farms more effectively. Because you know, you don't expect a farmer to go build software to manage their business. Could we have something similar here? Could there be community crowdfunding platforms for these kind of local clinics designed for universal access at sliding scale rates that also give software tools to help them manage these clinics better so they don't have to learn to be world class operators and businesses, you know, so.

And also increasing the demand for just healthy organic foods in general and making them more cost effective. I mean, in the same way that Uber drives the price down. Don't you see the tipping point happening with this? We're doing a series with Rodale Institute called the Truth Organic. And so what I'm most focused on right now is how do we actually make the organic conversation something that is applicable to where people are regardless of the economic spectrum? What are your thoughts thoughts on that?

You know, I'd love to see more and more decentralization and micro farming even at the suburban home level or city level. Right. And we've got more and more tech tools that enable that, that you can grow things in small spaces in urban places, that you get more awareness and understanding and mindfulness of where your food comes from and what it takes to produce food. So maybe it's not your whole food supply, but more and more, could it be literally garden to table at smaller scales? I think this notion of decentralizing these big centralized systems is the next trend. And it's what we're going to need in an increasingly frag centralized system that's going to be hammered on by climate change. So, you know, I live in Marin county and I think one thing interesting is that the upside of all these wildfires here, it's taught a bunch of us, you know, rich entitled people that oh my God, climate change affects everybody, including us. And now the discussion is like, huh, I wonder where my power comes from. PG&E is going to have regular outages for weeks at a time every season. Maybe I should generate some of my own power. And then, you know, that leads to mindfulness of how much energy you consume and where it comes from. Then the next conversation, conversation is, huh, where does my water come from? Where does my food come from? So, you know, technology in this first act is we created giant centralized systems for the sake of convenience, right? But as things become more fragile and broken down with climate change and all these other effects, maybe it forces all of us to be more mindful of our inputs and outputs and as we get more decentralized, we get more self reliant, self sufficient on our own systems and maybe also doing this at a community level, that's sort of my hope. Hope is that the pendulum swings the other way and instead of convenient centralized systems that we don't even understand how they run, we become more self reliant, more mindful, more resilient on producing the things we need.

Do you ever get the sense that you're from the future?

I don't know. Time is this weird linear dimension. But I do often think to myself as like, what would my 90 year old self say to me now? Just like what would I have said to my 20 year old self. So I do often try to picture who I'd like to become, but I think my ultimate answer is I have no idea.

The reason I ask that is because I just get that vibe from you, the way you speak and what you put out there into existence with your words as being possible is so radically different. And honestly, again, this analogy, since we're talking about breath, work and it's this breath that the world needs right now, I feel like we are seeing in the wellness industry specifically there is this return to the ancient, ancient tools, whether it's plants or breath or just traditional lifting, gathering, movement or sitting in a circle and playing music or singing like don't you see this, Tim? Do you see? We're just returning back to what we've always done, but we're doing it with this lens of technology.

Yeah, that's true. Backwards to the future. The thing is like people figured this stuff out millennia ago and you know, I slightly known for biohacking stuff back in the day, but after all these explosives experiments with wild supplements and crazy modalities, it just came back to what I jokingly call smile, sleep, meditate intermittent fast, have loving relationships and exercise. And the thing is, people knew that for millennia, right? And so it's just a blinding flash of the obvious to return to these healthy habits and lifestyles from before. But to your point, with a technology lens, maybe what we're able better to do is describe the mechanisms, have data to show the efficacy, and more importantly, have it be reproducible and translated amongst domains. My big dream in the next five years is that we'll even have a electromagnetic spectral understanding of how things like Reiki or acupuncture work. Because until now it's been viewed as it's a mystery. It seems really woo. But the difference is once you know how to characterize it and measure it and reproduce it, then it's called science. Right? So will we have a bridging of these worlds of east meets west, old meets new, wisdom meets technology. And I think we're on the verge of that. Like these things that were formerly less understood become more understood and therefore reproducible.

Everything to me feels lately like a paradox. Science exists, but if we only exist in science, there's no room for spirituality. If we only exist in spirituality, we're wearing a white robe with a purple thing around our neck and we're on top of a mountain. And then there's no science. And then there's there's charlatans and there's imposters in every category. And so the navigation of truth. And this is why I was so excited to get you on the show. It's been almost a year since we met in person and so this is so rich for me because you talked about this SLEEP acronym which we'll link in the show notes. We have a BREATHE acronym and it's beliefs, recovery exercise, actions, thoughts that actually serve my dream, habitual feelings. And then obviously eating, hydration and nutrients. So the BREATHE model, I get the sense that it's from 20 years of my studies and understanding of what makes us well that we need these things. And honestly, we are essential, sentient beings that deserve these things. How would you Describe wellness. You know, if you had to encapsulate wellness, if you had to define wellness from just everything that you're up to, man, which seems to be an incredibly exciting and really reciprocal life based on love and service. How would you define wellness? If you had to define wellness, it.

Really is that it's not an individual vector or it's not. Not some individual practice you do of just one thing of fitness or just what you eat. It's. It's a systematic type of thing. And that's why it's so challenging for our current healthcare system because we bucket things into silos and we just look at things from different specialties. But it's all interrelated like, right, Like a, like, like mother Nature. Mother Nature is a giant symbiotic system of things that are interrelated and all the pieces play a role from the smallest bee to the ants and everything else. I think wellness is like that as well. We've got the layers. I talked about the wellness of me, the wellness of we, the wellness of all, the whole ecosystem, the wellness of our habits, the wellness of our thoughts, they all link together, right? Perception is reality. Those shape behaviors, right? Our identity and our behaviors are interlinked too. So it's even wellness of our sense of self or identity, wellness of community. All these things together, you know, it's it as within, so without. And it's all this, like I mentioned, this fractal like interlocking system of all these different roots. So it's not just one thing you go fix. It's not just go pump iron 20 times a week and everything else as well, right? But that ties into what you eat. Are you sleeping properly? Are you in good community? So it is a systems level problem I think as well. And the thing is we've had these systems which we're optimizing for just one or two vectors like shareholder value or maximum production and consumption. And I think the lesson from nature is that everything is interrelated, interdependent and symbiotic. And whenever you oversimplify things to just maximum maximizing one variable, unintended consequences happen. I think that's the same for wellness. So you want this wellness at all scales, all levels.

Chang for president. We gotta have you in politics so you can bring some, some truth there, which I don't even know if that's possible. At times it seems like it could be, but just I'm so enthralled with what you're up to. And honestly this was such a gift to our Audience and to myself, like the experts, exploration of truly what's possible when we look at wellness through this lens. And really this concept of intelligence that I am so committing my life to exploring is intelligence. You know, it's the gathering information, it's the applying of the information, the testing, the iteration. And then lastly, Tim, which, which I really feel like you're an embodiment of is. Is the embodiment of the lessons, the practices, the tools, all the things. As you say goodbye to us here, what is someone's, what can you give someone as far as guidance to properly harness their own intelligence? The gathering, the application and the embodiment. Like what's helped you the most on those three?

You know, for me it's been not so much some of these peak experiences that might crack you open. It's really this notion of integration. And I've actually learned a lot studying the AA manuals, you know, of this integration, culture and community that is so robust. 100 years of this, it's no commercial model needed, it's decentralized, it's consistent everywhere. And what I kind of thought is that what AA provides is maybe what church used to or was supposed to provide. Sense of community, accountability, witnessing, you know, group transformation. And so I, that's the thing I'm looking for and I would recommend for everyone is to have that support community if possible, that integration, community, community. And those folks that will, they'll call you out on your stuff just like you're there to witness and call them out and support them on their things too. Right. So it's not just that Vipassana retreat, it's more. Okay, great. What downloads did you get? How will you bake that into your daily behavior? And what support system and community you have to hold each other accountable for then living and embodying those downloads. Right?

So yeah, Tim Chaim, thank you for the gifts you've given us today. And also I just want to leave people with another thing we're going to put in our show notes. It was an interview that you did and you had this quote where you said, what does any human really want? And it was this 50 second video. And in that video you gave us really the recipe for every single thing that we talked about today. And it was the answer to be witnessed, seen and heard. That right there is what I believe will be the new fuel source for wellness, for conscious capitalism, for everything in the world. And it's conversations like this that help it go that way. So thank you for coming on Wellness Force and please let us know how we can be involved in what you're doing and support what you're creating.

Thank you for the work you're doing. It's an important message, an important mission, and I'm here to support you in the community. Thank you.

Thank you. And where's the best place that we can actually engage with you or play or just go to this community aspect with you? Do you. Do you even do social media or do you play on there?

Not so much anymore. I used to and then I realized I was like, boy, it's. It creates a lot of workload for me. Right, sure. So I guess it's going to be maybe just, you know, email. Email. T changayfield.com is one. I guess it could be. Well, yeah, I don't really use Instagram or Twitter as much anymore and trying not to be as much on Facebook, but. But, you know, Facebook friend me, you'll send a message there too. I do use Facebook more as a messaging platform now, so that is a good way to just connect with folks. So. Yeah.

Well, thank you, Tim, for coming on and we look forward to another conversation at some point, maybe in 2020, 2021. Just so rich. That's the word that come up for me here. This. This richness of conversation that you're able to hold. So thank you again for coming on.

Thank you so. Such a privilege. Appreciate it.