Tim Corcoran | Vision Quest: Ecology of Life, Purpose Mountain & Spiritual Courage

Yes. You have a purpose for being here. There is a reason you took birth, you took form on planet Earth at this time in this year. And if you're courageous enough, that can be discovered, that can be felt, that can be found. Will it require you to face yourself? Yes. Will it be easy? Probably not. Will you have to face your traumas? Probably. So.

Tim, welcome to Wellness Force.

Great to be here.

Josh, you traveled from Idaho. You live in Idaho. The quest that we went on was so profound, man. If people don't know what a quest is, we're going to share a lot today. We have a lot of ground to cover.

Sure.

But if people don't know anything about you, or if maybe they're just seeing you, experiencing you for the first time, not the deep story, but just the high level of Tim, share with us, who is Tim and what is a quest? We can just start there.

Absolutely, yeah. So I live in a little town called Sandpoint, Idaho, which is all the way up north, close to Canada, on the edge of a big, beautiful mountain lake called Lake Pend Oreille, between the Cabinet Mountains and the Selkirk Mountains. And I live there with my wife janine and our two sons. And we've been there for about 15 years. And up there we run a wilderness school called Twin Eagles, as well as my personal coaching practice where I also offer Vision Quest, which of course you came to Purpose Mountain.

Yeah.

And so a vision quest is probably one of the oldest ways known to mankind of connecting with our deep self and answering the asking and answering the question, why am I here? Why was I born? Right. So in structure, it is a four day ceremony, fasting alone in nature, really shedding all the possible distractions of what takes us away from our deep essence and revisiting that through our connection to the earth, earning it every, every moment, every step of the way. So there's no traditionally, you know, no psychedelics or entheogens involved. And it is truly a fast from everything these days. We see most quests. The only thing you are putting in your body would be water. But there are some versions that involve no water, although that would be an advanced experience.

I can't even imagine that. So it's so surreal, Tim, sitting here with you in my home. We were connected by a brother, by a shared friend, Amre Marcus. And he doesn't necessarily connect me with a lot of people. So when we got connected, I was like, okay, I'm gonna pay attention. And we had some calls and you had this beautiful way, which I'm sure that you do with almost everyone. Or maybe you can give us some context. You asked, like, what do you actually want from the quest? There was this deep intake process, and for me, it was clear and present. It was, you know, my son, my. My lady is here in the home. And this is 39 weeks, 39.5 weeks that we're recording this podcast. And I knew there was something in my soul that just wanted to clean out any residue of shared lineage pain projections from my father and grandfather. And it was just so beautiful the way that you took me in. And so how do you cultivate who's the right fit for a quest? Let's start there. Like, who is the quest for and who is it not for?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great question. Well, there's this sense of a calling that can come forth, right? Like, I remember. I remember being a young guy looking out into a wilderness landscape. Maybe it was a beautiful mountain landscape, or maybe it was the desert. And that feeling of looking out and feeling like, wow, there is something missing, mysterious and powerful and adventurous about that place out there. That's like. It's drawing me. I felt like. Like I was a magnet or something that was being drawn. So this sense of calling to the earth itself can be one. One indicator that an individual is ready. Another indicator is that a person has this sense of. That. What is it? Right? It's this feeling of, I know there's more to my life and more to me than I am currently expressing in the world. I know I am more capable than I previously expressed myself. And. And there's a tension there, right? Like, being in that tension. And, like, I have to discover that and I have to live that. I know that I'm here for a reason. And the great adventure of life is discovering and living that reason, right? So when that's present, like that. That call from the earth or that call, I might call that the call from soul. Right? That call from soul is probably the biggest indicator of readiness.

Call from soul doesn't always have words.

No, it does.

It could be just a feeling, right?

Absolutely.

I remember I was. And I've said this quite a bit. So my audience is gonna be like, yeah, we've already heard this, but Gay Hendricks, about six years ago on the show, he was like, you know, sometimes when the universe or when spirit wants to talk to you, it'll be like a little feather. And then sometimes if you're not paying attention, it'll be like a jackhammer and just crush you. So. So. Voice from soul. Like, how Would you describe that you personally and with your students? Like, what is voice from soul?

Well, that's a big question. And even to talk about soul is a paradox. Or in some ways, we're trying to do the impossible. We're trying to point towards our very essence as a human being. And so it's soul by definition is beyond the realm of language. It's beyond words, ability to capture. So the best we can do is kind of hint towards it. Right? Or maybe use metaphors or poems. But what is my call from Seoul look like? Gosh, I mean, going all the way back. I did my. I'm 47. I did my first quest when I was 25. 26. 25, because it was the year 2000. And yeah, at that point, I mean, I had, like. I grew up in the Midwest and played by the rules. Went to college actually, for computer science. Graduated from Purdue. I was all always really bright, so I got good grades. That was always easy.

One hell of a contrast.

Oh, it's a huge contest. Yes. Yeah. And. But the thought of living my life in a cubicle for the next 60 years was, I mean, literally soul crushing. And I couldn't. I mean, I remember being a kid, right? You remember this being so alive and life was so. Every day was so novel and there was some new adventure. And then I would look around at the adults and I would feel like. Well, I felt like they were all living in the matrix. That's what it felt like. Right. We were just talking about before we started recording, and I was like, is this what's waiting for me? Like, am I going to be one of those. One of the mindless masses? And I was like, no way. And I saw that if I made those choices to sit in a cubicle for 60 years, like, yeah, that would happen. And so at 25, I was like, all right, I know there's a reason why I'm here. I don't know what it is. There's all kinds of things about the modern world that I'm not satisfied with that are clearly very degenerative in nature. And that real change, you know, needs to happen here. And I must have a part in that, right? So. So that was kind of my calling. And then reading about the quest for the first time and just the idea that as a human being, I have a vision. We all have a vision. We all have a purpose. And as I was saying, the great adventure of life is to go out and discover what that is and live that. That was profound for me. And I was like, Are you kidding me? I'll do whatever it takes to find that. So I've shared this before, but when, when I approached my first. One of my early mentors about the quest, his first, he didn't know me from, from anybody else. And he got these questions a lot, you know, would you put me up on the hill? Would you send me off on a vision quest? And so when I asked him that, his first response was, well, not till you go to your sit spot every day for a year. Right. And a sit spot, what is that? Just a little place in nature that you adopt and make your own and just go visit. And I was like, okay. Little did I know that he's had probably said that to hundreds of people.

Sure.

And very, very few, you know, would have followed up on that.

It weeds out the people that aren't truly calls. Maybe just want the novelty, but don't feel the soul's voice.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

So that's what I did. I mean, that was my preparation, if you will. And then after that year, like, yeah, I was ready, you know, I was ready.

Yeah. One thing I've heard you say, and I think you might have even mentioned it during the quest, and that was like, when you get your purpose, when you understand what your purpose is, that could potentially be the easy part. Living it, Living your purpose, sacrificing and working on your purpose every day. Almost like your purpose is a huge oak tree. And every day you're swinging the axe, chopping down that purpose. Living your purpose can be so different. Can you contrast that? Because I think a lot of people are like scrounging for their purpose and they're really white knuckling trying to find it. And I feel like that's preparation for when they do find it, the work that they would actually have to execute.

Absolutely. And let me back up and say, I don't require people to go to their sit spot every day for a year prior to doing a quest. So for our listeners out there, they.

Can sign up, they don't have to do a year prep.

Exactly, exactly. Not that that would be a bad idea. Sure, sure. But we do incorporate a certain amount of preparation, which is maybe a month or so, right? Yeah. So then the oak tree metaphor, I would switch the metaphor, Josh. I would say the metaphor is more like when we discover our purpose, it's like we find the acorn and we cultivate the soil and we plant that acorn. Maybe during those, I mean, as said, you know, I run them as a 10 day event. Maybe during those 10 days, we see the first sprout come out.

Right.

And so the great journey of life then become living one's vision, living one's purpose, is the process of growing that and seeing it go from the sprout to the mighty oak, you know, that is home to all manner of birds and animals and insects and its whole own ecology. But, yeah, you know, it's a big process to prepare and enact and integrate a quest. But in the big scheme of things, you know, I mean, yeah, that can be done in a few months time. Maybe in the full picture, we say a year, right. From the, from the date of the, of the actual quest. Yeah, until the full integration has taken place. But we're talking about a vision for one's life, right. Mark Twain said, the two most important days of your life are the day you were born and the day you find out why. And so I hold the quest as the quintessential, most sacred of ceremonies that a human being could enact for themselves because it literally brings us into a felt connection with our essence as human beings can show us a map for our path forward. And you know, that is, I mean, when I did mine at 25, right, like, I saw I was going to get married, I saw I was going to have kids, I saw I was going to start a wilderness school, I saw I would eventually support people on their healing journey and their journey to discover vision. And I'm still Today, you know, 22 years later, living out, you know, working on fulfilling that vision that came to me on that first quest over two decades ago. So, yeah, it's a way bigger, and I still will be the next 50 years, hopefully, right?

I think so. We have some good medical technology that is going to support us and supplements, and you're healthy. So I was feeling, when you were speaking, like so many people are called to different kinds of ceremonies in life. And for me, my experience Was this at 41, for people that don't know, I went to Idaho to be led by you and Alia and Hayden and Mark. Just such a profound team. I mean, you guys had such beautiful synergy. And like you had said, every quest is different. Like your group will be different, your guides will have different energy based on the level of development and consciousness we have. But for me, I went out there because it was my birthday and I had some residue to clean. So do people have anxiety, depression, relationship problems, like from 20 plus years of this? Tim, you've seen the gamut on what kind of men and women are called to this from an, from an emotional intelligence perspective, like, what are people really struggling with that that pushes them to the quest? Or really a better word, that pulls them to the quest. Like that magnet you were talking about.

Yeah, well, that's a really interesting question. And it has, we kind of have to back up and look at our culture at large, right? The, the classic modern calling might look like someone oftentimes maybe midlife, right, 30s, 40s, who has achieved a certain level of success in what we sometimes call the first adulthood. Meaning they grew up, they found their way in the world, they found a job, they found a path for themselves to make it to experience independence from their family, from their parents, and that's a good and wholesome thing to do. But then they hit a point of like, wow, this isn't working anymore. Now maybe they heard soul when soul was just whispering as we were talking about a little, a little while ago, and they, they got on the proactive side of it. Maybe not. You know, these days we don't live in a world that, in a culture that supports soul, right? We don't live in a culture that holds nature and soul at the center, unlike the realm of our ancestors, the worlds of our ancestors. So oftentimes, for modern folks, soul has got to knock pretty dang loud or be that sledgehammer to get people's attention. So oftentimes it looks pretty tough. Divorce, a failing job, an intense sense of, wow, what the hell am I doing with my life and am I really going to die and have not discovered who I am? You know, and that tends to awaken in a very strong way for people in their 40s. We know this, developmentally speaking, so oftentimes we see that. But in my own story, as you, as you heard, that wasn't the case. My life wasn't falling apart when I was 25. I was just finding my way. So while I didn't even realize it at the time, I was super blessed to have, I don't know, a certain level of sensitivity to my calling in life. Why did I feel that so strong when I was 25, when all my peers were going off and starting their first adulthood? I was kind of jumping ahead. And not to say that that didn't come without problems, because it did. You know, I didn't receive the benefit of all that foundational work, but I did get on a conscious path with my vision very early on. So it can look a lot of different ways. I mean, the other perspective is that when we look at place based culture, right? And this is A whole conversation to be had. But one of. One of your fellow participants. I'm thinking of Oscar. Sure. Right.

At 19, 19 years, I was so inspired by this dude. Can you imagine at 19, oh, my God. Doing a vision quest?

Well, that. Well, this is. So we get into age and stage. You know, ideally, if we're all in line with our own developmental process in connection with the earth, in a culture where there's mentors present, our developmental process matches our age. Right. So traditionally, that would have been the time. Yeah. When you first step into adulthood. 18, 19, you know, thereabouts. Maybe early 20s, maybe a little earlier, maybe 16, 17. You would naturally go after your vision like that. That makes sense. That doesn't happen so much these days because of our degenerative cultural paradigm. But for Oscar. Right. He's a guy who I mentored at my wilderness school since he was 6. So I had 13 years of mentoring experience in with him and took him through a rite of passage when he was 13, formally marking leaving behind childhood, entering into becoming a young adult. And then, of course, as you know, this vision quest served as not just a quest, but also a rite of passage for him out of adolescence, out of being a young man, and formally marking his entry into adulthood into the realm of man. Right. And we were very consciously marking that. So that's a whole other one. That when we have a community that we have where we're enacting cultural restoration and bringing these pieces back together, we see that young people align their age aligns with their stage of development, and that calling, you know, is very, very different and, say, his personal experience compared to someone who's just entering into this for the first time.

Well, Tim, a lot of people in their 30s and 40s, unfortunately, never had any rite of passage or really any connection to nature or to teachings or to facilitators like you to even know what that means. Right, right. So so many people are walking around, and we were talking about King Warrior magic before we hit the record button. And I'm just fascinated by the way that we are all seeking that kind of teaching. Now, maybe it's not conscious for everyone. Maybe it's on a subconscious level. And I can speak specifically, you know, as a man for men, of course, this applies to women as well.

Sure.

But from my perspective, from. From where I see it, I never had, when I look back, any kind of threshold support where I would move on from boyhood to being a man. You know, football. I played football in high school. Right. And I think a lot of us Feel like whenever we do hard stuff, that means that somehow we're growing stronger. And. And there's some truth to that. Yeah, but not total truth, because there is a ceremonial and a spiritual aspect to truly crossing that, that chasm between boy and man. Yeah, can you, can you talk about that? Because this is the part in our society, like you said, in our place based society. So, dude, contrast place based on. And also the ceremonial aspect of the threshold.

Right, well, so you were saying it's ceremonial, it's spiritual, and it's also community based. So what is a rite of passage? I mean, that terminology is used a lot and in my perspective, it's misused a lot. I hold a rite of passage as a subset, a type of initiation that formally marks the transition from one major life phase to the next. So there's only so many life phases we go through as humans. We're talking birth, childhood, adolescence, adulthood, maybe becoming a parent, becoming an elder, and death. Like that's less than 10. Sure. Right. So a rite of passage would be a formal community, ceremonial initiation to mark, formally mark that in community, where you're witnessed, you're seen by your. You go off, you know, you separate from your normal role, you have your ordeal, your threshold moment and you return in the new role and you're seen by community. The rite of passage is as much for oneself as it is for the community, because you're going to bring to discover gifts that you're going to then give and share with community. So it's absolutely an essential part. And in place based communities where human beings live committed to one place, one physical place, then by definition those people are also committed to one another. You have a conflict with somebody, you can't run away from it. Yeah. You're gonna, you're gonna have to face that.

That's why in Hawaii there's so much of the localism. Because they're on an island.

Yes.

So you can't go and flip off your neighbor because you're gonna have to pay for it at some point.

Or you can, but the consequences big. Yeah. The other piece is, think about it. When we commit to a place, then we develop a deeper relationship with it. And if it's getting destroyed, we feel that all the more because we've been there like our whole life. So I think it was. Yes. Magazine did a great article on this. They were talking about climate change and the destruction of our planet. And they said one of the greatest things we can do to save our planet is actually commit to one place. Right. And I Understand it. That's not going to be for everybody.

Sometimes your job changes, right?

Yeah, yeah. But that said, what happens when we do, you know what happens when we do. So, yeah, it's a huge discussion place based culture, which is a traditional earth based approach to life versus the modern experience that's so capitalist in nature and. Exactly. That one's job would change and then one would have to move. Like that would never happen in a place based culture. You would discover your role from an early age and be supported in the living of that. And if you evolve, which of course we all do, then the culture would hold that and you would find a new role within the culture. Were there cases of maybe a small percentage of people moving one place from another? Sure, it's not like it was rigid, but on the whole, we're talking 90 plus percent of people maintaining that connection to one place, to the same tribe, to the same people over eons, over thousands, maybe tens of thousands of years. And the ceremonies and the songs and the language all emerging of that place from that place. You know, these days we see a lot of localization efforts. We talk about local food and we talk about local this and local that. And really what I'm holding a vision for Josh is a relocalization of our spirituality. What happens when we do recommit to place and our spiritual ceremonies and practices emerge very locally from that place? You know, what are the ceremonies of the hill country here? Austin, Texas? And how are those different from the inland northwest mountains and lakes where I live? Right. I would imagine years from now when people are returned back to connection with the earth, that those ceremonies will re emerge as well.

We just had a ceremony here that really. I haven't told you this yet, so it's perfect timing. We had our baby blessing for Nova and we sung a song that we sung in the sweat lodge. And that song was Peace Like a River.

Yeah.

And the whole room was singing. And Kyle Kingsbury, who's a friend of ours, came to me afterwards. He's like, brother, I haven't sang like that ever. And I was like, how is that possible that, that Kyle Kingsbury has not sung like that, even with the whole fit for service and all they're doing. It's so easy for us to become victims of intellectualization in this world.

Yeah.

Where we, you know, we go do the, the trainings and the 20x and we go do the athletics and all these things. But singing and prayer and sitting around the fire, these are arts that are slowly decaying. And I feel like with your work. You know, since we're talking about the place based culture, man, how do we practically put that in place other than someone having the courage to just be like, hey guys, we're actually going to get together and we're going to sing right now. Because there is medicine in that. There is so much potent medicine in singing. I just interviewed Dr. Michael Ruscio and he was saying for people with sleep apnea, they know that when they play the didgeridoo or when they sing, their sleep apnea gets better. Who would have thought that. That Mother Nature gives us these, these beautiful, natural, easy things to do that are. That our current society is literally programming out of us. Right. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Yeah, absolutely. So songs, right? When, when, when. When we look at a good portion of my adult life, Josh has been focused on learning as much as I can from indigenous cultures. Right. And that's a huge, there's a huge amount of respect there. Right. I'm not talking about books or, I don't know, YouTube videos or something. Right. I mean I've went to great effort to befriend personally indigenous peoples and, and go to them, seek them out. Right. And humbly learn what I can not to, you know, take ceremonies and bring them back, but to. Because I know in my heart that there are pieces of traditional culture still alive and present today 2021 that have something to teach us. Yeah, those living in the modern experience. Which is, which is who I am. I grew up in the Indiana in the 80s, you know, like I'm a white guy and I didn't grow up in an indigenous culture. And yet I see that there is so much that has to offer us. So one of, one of the things I look are common cultural points. Like, okay, if we look at Earth based cultures worldwide throughout history, what are the cultural elements they had in place and how can we begin to use those in a respectful way in our culture? So song is a huge one, right. What happens when we're together with a small group or maybe a big group and we hear the shared resonance of our voice? We, we feel our unity not as some intellectual possibility, but in our bodies, feel those sound waves moving and feel our voice as one. One of my mentors from years ago, it was Gilbert Walking Bull, traditional Oglala Lakota holy man, said that as human beings, the only way we can achieve and actually experience, experience, true power is through unity. You know, it's not something that can be experienced on one's own. It is only through coming Together around a shared vision that we will experience that. So when we look at these cultural points, things like coming together around song. Coming together around. Yes. Birth ceremonies, blessing ceremonies for your children. I had those for both of my sons. River and forest.

The whole room was crying, too.

Oh, my God. Totally, right?

I mean, grown adults and something just. I'll let you go here. But like, something that also hit everyone's nervous system is I was looking around the room, and right when I sat down for us to sing, I looked at Carrie and I just started crying. Then she starts crying. And back in the day, I would have judged the shit out of myself. I. With my old programming, before the quest and even the seven years and all the training I've done to get to you, I would have looked at myself and I've been like, hold it together, brother. Hold it together. Why are you crying? What are you doing? But that unlocked the entire room. I looked at the faces of everyone, and when I started crying, she started crying. Then one of my buddies starts crying, and then all the women are crying.

Dominoes.

Yeah. And it's like there's actually in the salt water that we cry. There is so much medicine and there is so much healing that happens. And that's really the genuine aspect of song that you focus on so much in the quest. So I'll let you continue. But I had to say that because it was actually the tears and the song that unlocked the entire room and that allowed for greater connections and things that we can't even imagine if we're just willing to go into the fire of our own discomfort and really face our own programming, which is, don't be a pussy, suck it up, don't cry in front of people. It's fascinating the ways that we absorb this programming. And I feel like the quest is a really great UN programmer or an unlearner, really, in a big way.

Well, part of the process. I mean, you were talking earlier about emotional intelligence, Right. And I think part of what we're seeing these days, for those of us on the evolutionary path, the visionary path, is redefining what it is to be a man. Right. And so this idea of masculine emotional maturity, that, yes, as men, we have feelings, of course, we're human beings. We always did, you know? And so what is that? I mean, I define masculine emotional maturity in a very simple way. It's the ability to be aware of, accept and express the full range of emotions that we have in a healthy way. Right. Be aware of, accept and express our emotions in a healthy way. And generally stated, we could say that's a reasonable definition for emotional intelligence in general. Sure. For all genders.

It sounds really. I mean, it's very succinct. I think everybody can understand. A 10 year old can understand what you just said.

Yeah, absolutely. So your example of the blessing ceremony for Nova, the baby coming, you opened up. You took that risk of. Because it's hard. Right. We still have that programming. Even if we've consciously removed it, it's still. We still. It's still the water we're swimming in. Right. And the shadows of all that still exists. So it's still hard. It's still hard for me to open up and cry. And yet I know it's. It's good. I know it's good for me on so many levels. So when you did that. Yes. What happens? It gives everyone else permission energetically. Everyone's. The mirror neurons start firing and everyone's like, oh my God, Yes. This is such a sacred, precious moment.

Yeah.

And. And then we. You feel your. The shared vulnerability. We feel our humanist. My God, you struggle too. Yeah, I do too. You know, and here we are in this moment. You feel that depth of joy. Yes, I do too. Here we are in this shared moment. Right. We, I think about quality of connection, human connection versus quantity. Right. And that old thing we've all probably experienced of the neighbor that we've lived by for 10 years, who we've never connected with, even though we're right by him or her every day. And then the friend we connect with once or twice and like, oh my God, we totally open up and this deep quality of connection unfolds and we feel so much more connected to that person we've only seen once or twice compared to the neighbor who we've seen for 10 years. Right. So this quality of connection, you know, also what you make me think of is with your baby coming, is this really what you're enacting? What I'm hearing is a certain rite of passage for yourselves as parents. Right. Consciously acknowledging in community that your role is about to change. And also what that includes is the spiritual welcoming of life. You know, by coming together in that way, opening your hearts and your spirits, you are calling in the spirit of that child and saying, okay, the time is now, or we're getting very close now you have a place. You are welcome here. I had a mentor years ago, an Anishinaabe Odawa peacemaker, who, who talked about the. The welcoming of life ceremony as the original rite of passage. Right. People hear that term and they oftentimes think of just the trend, the adolescent transition, because that's when it's used. But again, rite of passage, right? Any formal initia marking the transition between life phases. So the first one then would be the welcoming of life. And he talked about that and said, you know, what are the consequences for me as an individual for receiving or not receiving a welcoming of my spirit when I was born? Like, maybe so many of the problems I have are actually a result of my spirit still trying to catch up with me from birth itself. And what gift are we giving our children when we come back to that? When we slow down, when we take courage, open our hearts and bring our people together and welcome that spirit in? You know, like, I will never forget him saying that. And that's like a haunting question. Like, I almost hate to even voice it because it's like, good God, I can't go back and undo that. You know, I can't. I mean, in a way, we can make up for it, right? Like, we can catch up, but. But there's no changing the fact that, like, for me, that didn't happen, right? I was born in a hospital and didn't feel the warmth of my mother or father's skin for the first six hours of my life. That has an impact, you know, that has an impact compared to a natural birth where the child is brought in and the ceremonies are done, Right? So big stuff here.

Oh, my gosh. When we get back to the. It's so funny because in the. It's actually not funny. It's perfect with you because I felt a resonance with you right, when I got on the phone with you. And then especially the way that you led me through the quest. It's hard for me to be led because I'm a leader and I lead people. So, like. So there was. There's a certain quality to. There's a richness to the way that you guide people. And in my experience, it only comes from somebody that has experience, like experiential learning. One thing you said is spirit talks in synchronicities, signs. And one other thing. Synchronicities, signs. And there was one other piece, right?

Symbols, omens, dreams, symbols, omens and dreams.

I had no idea you were going to talk about the healing medicine of song and how it brings unity. And I'm wearing a shirt today that says unity, right? So here's a synchronistic moment that's coming here with you. And it's these little breadcrumbs, Tim.

Yeah.

That always give me evidence that I'm on the right path. Yeah, and that's something that like you really have to train yourself to look for. Because we can become victims of, like I mentioned, our intellectual mind, where we're only going to feel safe when our external environment provides us the evidence that we're safe. Like enough money in the bank or you know, good luck with that certain level of health. Or we have our society, our whole society is built to not just disconnect us from self, but also to harvest us. Whether it's social media and our clicks, whether it's the way that we feel like we need to compete with neighbors. Who's got the better truck? Who's got the better boat? Can you unravel and unpack some of these aspects of our current society that disconnect us from the self? And then we can open up and talk about the healing of the quest. Because really the pre frame is the reason why people are driven to quest is because they feel disconnected from self in some way. And our society is built to completely fucking disconnect us from self all the time in subtle ways that we couldn't even imagine unless we presence them and we're aware of them.

Well, and what I would add to that, Josh, is that the reason people are drawn to quests is because they feel disconnection from self and disconnection from the earth and disconnection from soul mystery, which some people, maybe that's included in the term.

There's a lot of disconnect, right?

Yeah. Yes. Oh my gosh. That's a huge, huge question.

We got time, Tim.

So. Well, enter the matrix, right? Yes. Enter the matrix. Oh my gosh. I mean it's so big. So one of the first things I say when we, when I bring a group together, you know, for a quest, and you might remember this, Josh, is that the big lie that the narrative of the mainstream culture is holding, the big lie is that we're separate from nature. You know that you and I sitting here, these cameras, these chairs, this room, these lights, that this is all somehow not nature, right? That I am somehow and you are somehow not nature. Like what are you talking about? What is nature? Nature is life. Nature is this entire earth, this entire experience we're having. Tell me one thing that's not nature. You know, like you can't, you can get the most man made object, whatever it comes from this earth, it didn't come from Mars. And even if it did, that too would still be nature. Yes, right. So we, but it's the story that we Hold. We hold. I am different from nature. I am different from the trees out there. Qualitatively, you know, at a core level, I'm somehow different. And. And I've got to make this journey back. Like, it's so funny. People come to me all the time and they're like, oh, Tim, I can't wait to do this program or this retreat or this quest, whatnot with you, because I need to get back to nature. I hear that so often. And I just kind of chuckle. I'm like, are you kidding me? You are nature. And what happens when we take on that mindset and realize, I am as wild as any mountain, any maple, any moose. I have that wildness in me, and that is a core part of my essence. So when we go and we immerse in a ceremony like the quest, we immerse ourselves in wild nature. And that reminds us, you know, we find our nature when we immerse ourselves in nature. Right. And so back to your question of the. All the modern programming. You know, it's like the way I look at it, if we send our minds back many, many hundreds, maybe thousands of years ago, we all had ancestors who lived close to this Earth. That was the origin of human species. We evolved on this Earth. I mean, of course. And so we have this. It's in our DNA, this connection to the natural world. And it's only, what, the past few hundred thousand years, depending on how you want to look at it, whether it's the advent of the information society or the advent of academia or the advent of maybe agriculture.

It feels like it's the Internet that is driving that narrative these days. Computers, Internet.

Yeah, but we've only. It's like we're in an experiment as a human species. I feel like we are. We have disconnected ourselves from nature in mind. And we built these houses and we build these, you know, cars that zip us around. And as one of my elders used to say, you know, a person can go. Can wake up in the morning on the 14th floor of a high rise in New York City and take the elevator down and walk on the sidewalk and get in their car and go to another building and go up, and those whole 24 hours, their feet never touch the earth, you know, and what happens to us as human beings when we. When we do physically disconnect ourselves from the earth in its wildness and ourselves from our wildness, you know, then we start getting sick in body. We start losing our wellness, right? Our minds start to struggle. And now we have all kinds of weird Mental issues, mental health issues that we never had before. Emotionally, we cut ourselves off. Spiritually, we cut ourselves off. And then we wonder why we struggle. You know, we wonder why we struggle. And yeah, each year, my God, the machine just picks up more and more pace, more and more technology, and. And we're being patterned by, oh, my God, I mean, cell phones, like, oh, my God, right? Smartphones, like, I didn't grow up with smartphones. You know, these days we're addicted to those things. And the dopamine hit upon every Facebook, like, and every email that pops and, oh, my God, I gotta have that. But it's like there's a great void in our hearts, right? A great void that came about when we first left our natural roots. And the whole time we've been looking to fill that. And so how do we fill it? You know, give me that better car, give me that better job, give me that better this, that or the other. And it can never fill us up. You know, there's a quote I like which says we can never get enough of what we truly don't need. We can never get enough of what we truly don't need. So what is the antidote to Desire? Connection.

Right?

And that's what you experienced on the quest. That's what people experience. You come out and in an unassisted way, you earn every ounce of it, like we spoke about. You make that connection to the earth, you make that connection to mystery on mysteries terms. You make that connection to your deep self in a very natural, organic manner. And that hole that we fill up with so many freaking crazy distractions and addictions is suddenly, maybe for the first time, actually filled up, you know, and we feel that sense of belonging.

There's a. There's a wholeness and a completeness that. That I felt that was more profound than any ayahuasca or mushroom or even some of the deeper catharsis breath work that I've done. And the only way I could describe it is. And I'll. And I'll just point out one quick moment from the quest that was profound for me when I came down. And we'll talk a little bit more about the functioning parts of the quest, but this one's true for what you're talking about. And that is. When I came down the hill, it was still dark. I didn't know I was the first one, but I just was sitting out there after 96 hours. I actually did the math. It's about 100 hours. It's a long period of time. So I'M sitting there, and I'm just listening to the birds kind of chirping. I'm sitting in the blackness. I mean, it was dark. And I just see, like, this tiny line on the horizon. And I just felt, okay, it's time to go. And so. But I couldn't really see, so I was just trusting. I'm like, I'll make it back. But I was doing what you and Mark told us, and that was the fox walk, this slower, natural gait of how we're designed. And I got to the threshold, and I think you were trying to bless me or cleanse me from the mountain. And I just came in for a huge hug.

Never forget it.

And when I hugged you.

Yeah.

It was like I was actually home, you know, it was like I was actually home. And when we sat down by the fire, I turned to you and I said, you know, this is the first time in my entire life where I had been seeking in ayahuasca ceremonies. I had been seeking for this wholeness, this completeness, this really peace for so long. And I realized, ah, I had to go through getting my ass kicked in an ayahuasca ceremony. I had to go through the constant scrapping for peace so that I could really understand what this medicine was about. And this medicine was the only medicine that I'd ever received that actually grounded me into the earth.

Yeah.

Which is what my nervous system needed. My little boy inside, which we all have. Right. No matter how evolved you are, connection to our young man is pivotal. And so for me, my young man didn't want me to blast up into the stratosphere with ayahuasca and all these things, and those have a time and a place, but it was so profound. And I had just this, like, outpouring of joy. I remember I kept laughing. I kept laughing. And there was just so much wholeness and completeness and love present there. And I can feel it with you right now. It's been a month, but I can still feel it with you. And it's what I brought back home. And that's what I want to share. For everyone who is seeking, the quest may not be something that you want to sprint to, but a lot of people, they sprint to different ceremonies when it comes to psychedelics. And so this is a pivotal part. I mean, there's so many threads that connect to all of our conversations so far, but where we are now is, like this moment that I shared with you that no amount of money could get me that moment. I had to earn it. And I Had to earn it by going through all the contrast of like having my psyche split and having 18 months of healing happen from me using my egoic mind, saying, well, if I'm going to do one ayahuasca ceremony, I'm.

Going to do four.

I'm going to do four ceremonies and that'll get me. That'll heal me, right. That'll allow me to have peace. Whole time, Mother Nature and the trees just watching over me, just waiting for me. Just waiting for me to come to you. Waiting for me to come back to her. So can you share what you were experiencing in that moment? And also that can lead us to this conversation of psychedelics and that medicine versus the medicine of our mother, who really most of us are disconnected from.

Yeah, well, it was such a beautiful moment. I mean, as you said, you were the first one to come down off the hill. It was early. I mean, it was. I remember waking up at 4 o' clock that morning.

I had no concept of time.

Right. Of course not. No time is gone. There's no time for four days out there. Forget it.

Yeah.

I remember, Josh, the feeling, mostly the feeling, you know, of you coming down and Alia and I think Hayden were there, our assistants on the quest, and you coming down. And I remember that feeling that here is a man coming down, which is what's a big part of your journey. Here's a man coming down who is of this earth, a man of this earth, a man who has found himself, a man who has found his place. And these are all again, words trying to point to something that's probably impossible to speak about. And that hug that you just came in and there was such an incredible level of vulnerability in that moment, but it just brought me to tears. I mean, it's moments like that that like, God, Josh, I mean, those moments like, fill me up. Those moments are what I live for, brother. I mean, that's like, to hold that kind of space for someone who's authentically on the journey, that's like the greatest thing, you know, that's like there's my purpose being manifest in the world through another, through my service, in this case of you and Yeah, I always remember you saying that you said, you know, my. For the first time, my little boy felt safe and holy moly. You know, that's quite a statement. And your statement on. Yeah, the quest versus psychedelics. Oh my gosh. I mean, it's a huge conversation. But I think the thing I want to point to because you spoke about wholeness.

Yeah.

Again, we are Nature, we are of this earth and it matters. And there are. So you're familiar with attachment theory? Of course. Right. Okay. So last 50 years, psychologists, right. Brief, brief overview is art. As babies, our connection, or lack thereof, with our parents, particularly our mother, has a huge, huge impact, a massive impact on the quality of our relationships throughout the rest of our life. Can we experience healing if that wasn't there? Yeah, of course. But it's going to color things dramatically. So I hold that similar to attachment theory, that there is a. Consider a nature or earth attachment theory that we have evolved from this planet, this is our home. If we have a conscious relation. So having a conscious relationship with it is essential to our development as human beings. As essential as like drinking clean water and having a healthy relationship with our parents. And if we, we don't have that, that's going to impact us negatively in the same way. And I would hold the same for a soul attachment theory. Right? That we have a developmental need if we're going to experience our fullness of life to have a secure attachment to soul. Right. Just like we need that with parents, just like we need that with nature. So people talk about this as. People come to me all the time. Right. And I don't think we spoke about this after. So I'm curious your perspective on this. But, but I oftentimes get the comment that, wow, Tim, I came out, I made this connection with the earth, and it was like a veil was lifted between me and Mother Earth that I didn't know that veil was there until it was lifted. And like I now one of the other. One of the indicators I look for in terms of the earth attachment being secured is that an individual primarily identifies as being of this earth. The first way of identifying oneself is as a natural human being. More so than any job, any, any role in life, any human community. That first and foremost my identity stems from being of this earth. And that's a piece of our wholeness. Right. And so on a quest, sometimes that's conscious for people, sometimes not. But that, that, that reconnection is made. It can't not be made. When you, when you go give yourself 96 hours out there fasting and praying on the land like that, that connection is restored and it just, you know, it. I mean, people just cry and cry with the, with joy and just the fullness and like, oh my God, I've always wanted this and never known it or maybe never realized or maybe they did know it.

Yeah, I can speak to that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So.

So the veil, you're talking about. There's multi layers here. One of the things that hit me the hardest was the very first night I had the most earth shattering nightmares I've ever had. The dreams on quest for people who don't know are profound. Like all caps and stop profound. Because the veil out there to the underworld that you and Mark talked about is very thin. So I think the reason why people reconnect to the wholeness of mother and didn't maybe realize that a veil was there is because they've never touched the veil of the underworld in other parts of their life. The bugs, the creepy crawlies, the animals. My sits, my spot was like, there was droppings all over the ground. I didn't know if it was bear. They told me that bears have logs. So I was like looking around for logs because the trees in my spot were like scratched. And I'm like, is that a deer? Is that an elk? Is that a bear? And so the veil that I experienced out there was like the dream world and the waking world blended.

Yes.

I mean there was a blending of these things. And the dream was so profound that I woke up that morning and I just wept.

Yeah.

You know, because the sun was so beautiful. And in the dream I had, and I've shared this before and it's. And it's cathartic and beautiful to share. Like I, I had experienced a lot of addiction around sexuality in my life, which, which I'm open to share about because, man, it's healing for other people. There are million men specifically, I'll speak to men, women too, that deal with this. And in the dream I, I came on a prostitute because I had made a choice in Thailand at a lower stage of development many years back to engage in that.

Yeah.

And I woke up that morning after going through the most visceral, like churning nightmare. Like, like truly the caterpillar and the chrysalis.

Yes.

Like just in its own liquid. Like that's what it felt like, man. And when I woke up, I was just like, thanks. Thank God for my life. Thank God for my life. And, and that I don't have to leave my woman and that I can be a father to my child. And I think the veil you're speaking about, we have to go to things like the quest in order to know that there's even a veil in the first place. Then we can reconnect with the veil that may be blocking us from mother Earth. Yeah. So I'd love for you to speak about maybe both of those veils because. Because they're both. They deserve equal importance, for sure. And I think we operate so much neck up here in this society that potentially we don't even know what they are, how to access them, what they mean for us.

Well, sometimes we talk about the five. I consider more minor initiations, but in nature, right? So cold, wet, bugs, alone, dark, no fire, no tent.

I was angry at you and Marcus.

Oh, yeah, no tent. How dare they.

Just a little tarp for the rain. And then he was like, dude, an animal is going to get you if you're in a tent or a tarp, it doesn't matter.

Exactly.

But yeah, you take away all these things that give us comfort, and then what's left?

Exactly. What's left?

What's left?

That's the question. I opened up the podcast talking about how the quest is the ultimate shedding of distractions, right? And because what are those distractions, whether it's tense or warmth or Facebook likes or whatever it is, those are the trappings of the ego. That's what brings us safety, security, and comfort, which are all illusions of the ego. And so as that is stripped away, the quest is an intentional process of shifting one's identity from the place of the ego to the place of one's soul. For that to happen, the ego has to loosen its grip. So there has to be a shedding process. And that's not comfortable, you know, so that's why it's important, as we've been talking about, that people feel this calling, because it is like, if you're listening right now, I'm thinking of our listeners and feeling drawn to this. Like, there's a certain courage that's called for.

Damn right.

Of like, I'm willing to let go of those things that make me comfortable. By definition, that means you're going to get uncomfortable. And that's a healthy thing. There's nothing wrong with that. We live in a society that. That worships the God of comfort, right. And we lose our souls, literally. And maybe we'll lose our planet as a result. And so this is the courage, this is the bravery. This is maybe a part of that warrior aspect of ourselves. I'm wanting and willing to face myself and willing to let go of these comforts, even for a time, so that I can see what is really left when all of those distractions are stripped away and what's left. What's left is your spirit. What's left is your essence. And you feel that not as a separate thing floating out there, but in connection with the ground, in connection with Your life purpose. Yeah, Dreams come in. I mean, I'm a huge dreamer. I love dreams. I love working with dreams. Working with the signs and symbols and synchronicities. We spoke about that earlier from nature is very similar to working with dreams, but dreams are so cool because it's literally an unlimited canvas. It's like the dream weaver, creator, spirit, whatever, however, fill in the blank with whatever you're comfortable with, has a canvas that they can pick whatever they want to paint. Exactly what we need to see to face ourselves. And in your case, Josh, you know, you had to face all of that really intense, you know, that nightmare of the scene with the prostitute and all of that, because that was the pain that was living in your spirit on.

Its subconscious, deep level that I had actually thought that I had done work.

On, which I did when you probably had.

But there was a level of connection to the shame and the guilt.

Yes.

That was still the most cathartic in that environment. Why do you think that is?

Oh, well, that's a big question again, because. Well, because you entered that ceremony with a deep level of courage.

You.

You said, okay, I want to face myself. You said, I'm willing to. To let go of all of these distractions. And you really gave yourself humbly to it. You know, as you said, you're a leader. It's hard to come out and be led by some. But you. You did the. You were ready, and you made the choice of really opening yourself. And then in that space, spirit said, soul said, okay, here we go.

First night.

First freaking night. You got courage. Here you go, brother.

First night.

And it. It took you to your knees, man.

Oh, yeah.

And I mean, I can only speak about this because, you know, how many times have I gone through that? Sure. I've been humbled so many times, over and over and over to release the trappings of the ego and embrace my real calling. Why did that happen? It happened because you earned it. You know, that wasn't assisted. I mean, thinking about entheogens and psychedelics, you. Your psyche was ready for it. And there's an old saying that on quest, we get exactly what we're ready for and no more. So unlike psychedelics, psychedelics can blow people out. And we can have experiences that are way beyond our capacity, actually our capacity to integrate. We always talk about integration this, integration that. Well, there's some real hazards there. And there's lots of folks who experience trauma during those scenarios.

They can actually go and be more harmed when leaving and Theogenic experiences.

Yeah.

Than before they Arrived. Right.

And like, I'm not going to come down and say that's impossible in a quest, but I have never experienced, and I've never heard of a story of that happening. And I've, you know, been doing this work, I mean, professionally my whole life, if you. My whole adult life, if you had to guess.

And the number doesn't even matter. I'm just genuinely curious. How many individuals have you directly led and indirectly led over the course of these decades?

Oh, I don't know. I mean, thousands.

Thousands of people. And you've never had one experience where someone had a psychotic break? Maybe they. Maybe they broke a part of their mind they were holding on to that wasn't serving them.

I did have one.

Okay, can you share about that?

This was. I don't know. God, what was this? This was like eight, nine years ago. And this was a woman who came in with very significant trauma, very significant trauma from throughout her life. She's like in her 30s or so.

I love how honest you are. You could have been like, nah, but.

You'Re going for it, I'll go for it.

Why not?

Look, I'm just a human being like anybody else. And she let me think here. So we were kind of lucky in that she didn't. I wouldn't say she had a full psychotic break in our program structure, but she had the early stages of it. And there was a deep unwillingness on her part to face herself. Right. There was a deep, deep unwillingness to face herself. And what was that? That was, I mean, a ton of empathy and compassion for her because she had heavy duty trauma that she was trying to heal. Sure. And then as she came forward in the process, it was just too much. And she had a story, which was actually a story I held for years, that it was only a traditional earth based wisdom or healing context that she was open to. And what she had closed herself off to were more modern approaches that would understand the modern psyche. And she had really closed that off. And she had kind of, for years she took that route of a traditional healing practices as far as it would go. And that brought her a certain amount of healing. But the next stage in her development was actually to open up to a more modern approach because, look, traditional earth based ceremonies, you know, inspired by indigenous peoples, they were for those people at that time. And do they have healing and wisdom and power for us? Of course. But we are modern people. You know, I grew up in the suburbs in Indiana in the 80s. I didn't grow up on the back of a Horse, you know, hunting and gathering in an intact tribe. So our healing ceremonies, a certain part of it, I firmly believe, Josh, have to come from our modern experience. And so I have a great respect for, like, modern psychotherapy, men's circles, women's circles that. That aren't, you know, drawing from Earth based traditions, but are drawing from a modern understanding of the psyche. So just to finish the story, this woman was unwilling to embrace that side of her. She had a story going that only the old earth based approaches would work.

For her, which feels almost like sabotage on a very deep level. Like, I'm only gonna do this way because that's the way it has to be. Anytime we're not, as you say, honoring the mystery. Right. Then we're not gonna get the gift.

Yeah. And in that process, she had turned her back to a whole side of herself, maybe the biggest side, you know, and in that unwillingness, yeah, I mean, she had a break and it was not pretty. You know, Thankfully, I had elders present. This was at a community held process with. It was a big workshop with like 100 plus people. And I brought in all the support I could get. I called on my men's group, I called on my elders, and we formed a circle and helped her out. And, you know, it didn't get worse at that time, thankfully. But yeah, those are, you know, that was a scary situation.

One big thing is our ancestors were incredibly wise because they were living and connected to the earth. There wasn't a veil of separation if they were conscious, if they were doing their work. I'm sure there was probably just like any time in society, there's people that weren't doing their work. But one thing that I was feeling when you were speaking was our ancestors, if they lived today, would have had the wisdom to combine modern day science and modern day healing because it's in their environment. They would have been smart enough to know, okay, well, there are certain things about this day, this earth, this experience that I will bring in. You know, those things didn't exist back then.

Right.

So to not blend the two. And it's a perfect moment for me to share this with you. Because of you, man, and because of the quest and what I went through, we have completely changed our branding, our messaging for wellness force.

Wow.

Because I realized what this unlocked for me was we really weren't being present for people's eyes and ears to connect them to three things. And that is the wisdom and the honor for our ancestors in the past, which is why we now have trees in our branding we now have Earth in our branding. We now have stars in our branding. Alan and I are creating something magical that everybody's going to see, and that is this abstract art. The abstract means the technology. Kevin Kelly calls it the technium. Right. It's consciousness experiencing itself through technology. So in the middle of this, there's. There's the vision quest and the healing honoring of our ancestors, my grandfather and Mother Nature, with the abstract of technology. And in the middle, there's spaciousness. There's spaciousness for us to decide from a place of wholeness. Okay, well, which one is more important today is today's medicine or mission that I take in technology and I use that from spaciousness, or do I need to go and connect with Mother Nature? And it's so funny. I'm in, like, real time feeling this with you. You know, the whole mission of this podcast since we started was how do I gather physical. And how do I discover physical and emotional intelligence so I can live my life well?

Yeah.

How do I do that?

Yeah.

And the only way we can do that. And this is why the brand has evolved, really, because of you, brother. Because of you and because of your teachings that spaciousness in the middle is now this really fun, exciting place that we get to create from. And we can pull from the abstract and the tech or we can pull from Mother Nature and her teachings. So I just wanted to thank you here on the podcast for that. And.

And what? Honored. Honored, welcome.

What does that bring up for you? Like the concept of the three, right? The nature, the honoring of the past and. And the now, the honoring of the future, which is really our future generations. And then the spaciousness in the middle to be the arbiter of decision from.

Yeah, well, again, such a big topic here and so much to say.

I like to ask big questions.

I love it, bro.

How else are we going to get intelligent?

Exactly. Exactly. So I think one of the big things, and this is not, you know, so be mindful of the trappings of the mind here. This is not something to be intellectualized. This is something to be experienced somatically in the body.

Everyone take a deep breath.

Is the. Thank you. The importance of experiencing ourselves as one link in the bigger chain of the ancestors who've come before us and future generations to come. You know, I remember being in the sweat before the sweat lodge, before the quest, and saying over and over, just feeling I could feel them, like, right behind my right shoulder. The future generations. I remember saying this over and up. I don't know if you remember this moment or not. But future generations are coming.

Oh, yeah.

Future generations are coming. I repeated that three times. Future generations are coming. And it was like, you know, that's much of my work.

Right.

I always think of. It's not so much about Tim. It's more about Tim getting out of the way so I can be that hollow reed for something else to speak through me. Those are. That's always my prayer, you know, is, help me get out of the way so something else can come through me.

And when you say, it has a different resonance. A lot of people speak in tongues and they go, oh, my God, let me get out of the way so spirit can speak through me. I'm like, get the fuck out of here. But when you say it like it's from. It's from this peacefulness and experience, which is where I believe true power can be trusted. From. From that place.

Yeah. And I never quite know when it's happening in the moment. I mean, sometimes I'll get a hit. But, you know, it's. It's typically in retrospect that I get clarity on whether that was successful. Because I'm still a human being. I'm still a guy. I make mistakes. There's all kinds of moments when Tim gets in the way, of course, you know, that's the journey of being a human being. Yeah. But that was a moment. Looking back, like, I think something else was coming through and. And that's so important that people feel that, like, we're going to die one day and there are future humans and trees and birds and animals waiting their turn to live on this earth, wondering, you know, this is the image I always hold, wondering, how are they taking care of it? What kind of a world will they leave me? I mean, our children, our grandchildren, right? One day they're going to be here. What will we have left them? And similarly, our ancestral path. Right. And this was a big, of course, a big theme at the quest that you were at, Josh. So just as important, but of course, this is looking to the past. So a lot of people. Let me just back up and say this. So a lot of people associate the vision quest with. As a Native American thing, you know, and that's understandable. That the term itself, I think, came with the understanding is that it came from a. An anthropologist who. That was an English term that he put on this process of four days fasting alone in the natural world for North American indigenous peoples.

Right.

But if we look back across time and cultures, we see that as a practice. It was something that existed cross culturally, right? There are Australian aborigines who had their version of it. There were Celtics who had their version. Christ in his days in the desert, or Mohammed in the cave, or the. The Buddha under the tree. Right? Those were all vision quests, we could say. And so at its heart, it is a human thing. It is not a Native American thing. And that's part of why Mark and I choose to use the terminology vision quest. Because our hope is to actually help redefine that, that this is something that all of our ancestors did at some point in time that is accessible to us. We all come from this earth, and there's no comparing one culture or one group of people better than another. And so that's important. Now. It's important to acknowledge that we spoke about this during the quest ahead of time, that we all, as most of us as modern people, come from an ancestral lineage where our connection to the earth was severed, right, that by colonialism, capitalism, you name it. But there was a time in our ancestral lineage history where our spiritual connection to place was cut. My last name is Corcoran, right. I come from County Cork, Ireland. My paternal lineage, right? That's five generations back. Those are my people. Those are my ancestors. There was a spiritual connection to that place. We talked about localization of spirituality. That's my ancestral connection. Connection. I don't have Native American, you know, blood in me. And so what was it, you know, what was the bomb? This is kind of pulling from. From the quest, you know, what was the bomb that went off in my lineage that. That forced my ancestors to leave this sacred connection that we're now talking about working so hard to re. Establish to. To reclaim. You know, that was. That. That was the. The potato famine, right, in Ireland.

Sure.

And I've studied this. I've looked back. What was going on back then? Well, the blight came, the potatoes went bad. And it wasn't that. There wasn't other food. The Irish people were growing lots of food, but they were under the tyranny of the English, who were completely just brutalizing and traumatizing them, taking all of their food, sending it back to England so that all that was left for the Irish at the time were the potatoes. So when those potatoes, that blight hit, that was it.

I mean, it was death.

It was like either leave your spiritual homeland or die. What would you have picked? Of course they left. Of course they came to the U.S. that was the only hope we had. This quote that Mark and I work with, the only reason a person leaves home is if the home is the mouth of a shark.

That's right.

The only reason a person leaves home is if home is the mouth of a shark. That was it. It was either stay and die or go and live, you know, so that, so that their future generations at the time, me today could have a chance. Right. So. And this is why I say the quests we lead are not traditional Native American. Right. It's. It's. These quests are, are adapted for modern people in modern time. Do we draw from traditional universal cultural points? Yes. Is there wisdom there? Of course. And do we incorporate a modern understanding of the psyche and the whole human being? Yes. But the spiritual basis for the work we do, the work I do is that I want people to make the connection that you made. I want people to get that at some point in their history, their ancestry, a bomb went off and they lost that connection that did used to live in their beings and their ancestors beings. Right. And that means grief, like to actually sit with that is an incredibly, incredibly grief filled experience. But that's like the sin of our times and even beyond before our times. And that maybe through feeling that grief of that tremendous, tremendous loss, you know, back when people were still connected to the earth and their souls and themselves, maybe through experiencing the fullness of that grief, we can have a chance of re establishing that. So it's not about, I want to go out to the Lakota or I want to go to the Navajo, or I want to go to this tribe or that tribe and take their ceremonies and that's going to fill the hole. That's a losing approach. It's not going to work. And it's also not respectful in most cases. I mean, that's cultural appropriation. You know, the approach is what is my inherent connection to this earth and how do I go about, about reestablishing that spiritual connection.

There's so much wisdom in the grief that we forget about because the grief can be so overpowering to our nervous system. And one of the things that was really, really deep for me on the quest was what grief am I not allowing myself to feel? What sadness am I not allowing myself to feel? And I connected with my grandfather in such a deep way out there.

That's right.

Obviously I've shared with you, but I'll just share quickly. The middle name of my child is Mara because that's my grandfather's first name. And so I want to honor the best that he possibly could, the way he provided for our family, the pain that he went through his parents coming over from Sicily on a boat. Can you imagine? Can you guys imagine to what Tim is speaking about? Having to let go of your home, your sheep, your farm, your wine, everything, Burn it to the ground because of the tyranny that they were experiencing in.

Sicily at that time, Generations of ancestral connection to that place, and then come.

To Ellis island and get a stamp and be like, well, here's your name. I mean, to be treated like cattle. And I was feeling that out there for him, and I was just feeling so grateful. So grateful for what he went through and the way that he left, what he left for our family. I mean, it just brings tears to my eyes right now just to think about it. And so that's the honoring that I'm doing in my life with my son is Nova is the brightest star in the universe. That's right. The supernova. It's the brightest thing we'll ever see. And I think all the children that are coming in right now, for parents that are on a path of spirituality or just growth, they're coming in to change some things.

Yes.

So it's an honoring of the future generations. It's an honoring of my grandfather in the past, but it's also one of the times that I've really been able to touch that deep level of sadness for what he went through.

Yeah.

Have you experienced that yourself? And then can you talk about the healing mechanism that happens when we honor the grief and honor the wisdom of the sadness?

Yeah. Well, that's such a big piece. You know, and again, we live in a modern. Our modern culture that doesn't. It doesn't hold space for that process, certainly as in general, and then certainly as men. Oh, my God. You know, we're not allowed to cry. Right? As that's a cultural narrative. Yes. Real men don't cry.

The most sinister one is Big boys don't cry.

Oh, yeah.

Big boys.

Oh, yeah.

You guys, of course. Just please don't do this to your children.

Oh, my God.

I'm gonna tell my son. Your sadness is safe with me.

Yes.

You want to cry? You're safe with me, son.

Welcome.

You don't. You don't.

Don't.

Big boys do cry.

Yeah.

Because we all cry anyways. It's important to note. It's important.

Hugely so. Hugely so. So what. What do we unlock when we do that? Well, I mean, this kind of goes back to the journey of emotional maturity that we were talking about and how much healing we all have. We live in a world where, you know, our world today, there's so much more trauma that we're facing because we live in a disconnected world. Yeah, right. So each individual on average has way more trauma these days, say, than our earth based ancestors did 500, 1,000 years ago. And we have less cultural support to process that. Back then they had the old ceremonies they had built into the culture that knew how to address those issues of trauma and grief. And I mean, we're working on it. We've got modern psychotherapy, which helps to an extent, but is not the whole answer.

It can unfortunately sometimes be very heady and very intellectual.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I'm not a proponent of just doing talk therapy.

No, no. God no.

It's a part of the wheel, but.

Yes, part of it. But not the whole picture. Absolutely not. And so, so when we do start to open up and we allow ourselves the opportunity, you know, to feel our feelings, what tends to come up first for most people is issues of trauma from their own personal life history. Like for me it was some abuse as a young kid and then bullying and then my parents divorce. Those were like the three heavyweight traumas I had to contend with. That took me some years to begin to get on the other side of. And this is just a generality, there are exceptions to this. But for most people, when we come to the other side of that, and I'm not saying that we can ever fully, we can't change the past, but we can change our relationship to it and we can change our inner narrative and the impact of that on us. Someone once said regarding trauma that the worst part of trauma is not the trauma itself, but how we hold onto it and internalize it and then continue to traumatize ourselves. We adopt an inner abuser, an inner oppressor unconsciously that continues to traumatize ourselves over and over. So we can get to the other side of that. And that kind of healing work happens as you experienced and many others in a quest or in a therapy room or in a men's group or in a women's group. There's lots of different places where that can unfold. But when we do begin to get to the other side of that, right. And it doesn't, I like to speak about it as the transition from a wound driven life to a vision driven life. Right. First we've got to catch up with ourselves. We got to address all that stuff that we're not at peace with in ourselves, then we can really put our energy towards that bigger vision. But when that happens, and we see this more and more, then A doorway opens up to the ancestral grief. To the grief. What happens to the grief my dad or granddad or great granddad had and didn't address? Does that just go away? No. We know there's some epigenetics that shit sticks around. And whatever my ancestors didn't deal with, I'm gonna have to deal with. You know, I mean, I don't have to. I could choose to pass it on unconsciously.

You could, which is what a lot of people do. And I'm not saying that to belittle them. It's just the awareness of what is like. A lot of people choose to not deal with it.

Right.

And that's, that's okay on some level.

Yeah. But if we're gonna, you know, be serving a greater vision for the future. Right. Then it is our responsibility to do so. And so many of us, and I'm sure many of our listeners have made that commitment. Like, the trauma stops with me. I'm not going to repeat the sins of the past. But what we have to recognize, and this is the other piece I know we spoke about this during the quest, is that it's something that my elders, an elder, told me. God, I mean, this was like, yeah, 20 years ago. And I remember being so depressed, so, so trigger warning here for people so depressed when I first heard this, that he said to me, he said, it will be 500 years before the full fruits of our efforts of this vision are known on this earth. Meaning to fully come back to an intact, regenerative society with a deep connection to the earth, with a deep. Where that's the norm, you know, where a deep connection to soul and purpose and vision and a fully intact community. And all the rites of passages and the ceremonies and the rituals are all back. It's the 500 year plan. And that was so upsetting to me. I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, that's, you know, my life. Even if I live to 100, that's not even. That's 20% of that.

You're barely seeing the foundation get built.

Exactly. And that's the metaphor we use of like, we're building a house for our future generations. That's beyond anyone I'll ever know in my life. Maybe I'll probably meet, hopefully meet a grandchild, maybe a great grandchild, but that's multiple generations forward. And so, oh my God. I mean, as a dad, like I said, I've got an 11 and a 14 year old. And I remember in those early years, like having such a Strong vision for community up in Idaho and being so, I mean, full of intense rage and just like, fuck screaming, fuck you at God for the fact that, like, my kids aren't going to experience the full shelter of that house. I'm so upsetting. I can't tell you. I wanted to dynamite everything because I had this idea that, oh, you know, five years in, we'll be able to recreate the whole community. And even if it's not for me, at least my kids will get it. And then when I realized, wow, nope, maybe they'll get to hammer a few nails into the studs of the wall. But this is way bigger than any of us, you know, and this is seven generations thinking both backwards as well as forwards. What is my work to do to heal the grief of the past of my ancestors? What is my work to do now? And can I do it well? Can I build that foundation well? Or am I going to jump ahead or be antsy about it or be sucked in by all manner of distractions rather than actually doing the work of my time? You know? And that's, like the hardest thing. And it has been for me, you know, as a man committed to vision and. And again, I make all kinds of mistakes. But to see that, wow, it's just foundational work, and that's all it's probably going to be. I mean, I'm open to something else, you know, and if there's a shortcut, fucking A, bring it on, you know? But time and time again, it's like, nope. Foundational work. Foundational work. Foundational work.

And there's such a wisdom in the acceptance of that that. Because a lot of people might choose, well, if it's not going to be. If the fruits of my labor aren't going to be seen in my lifetime, then what's the point?

Yeah.

Well, the point is, is that it's not about just us.

Yeah, that's.

That's really the point.

Yeah.

And I think that the more that this kind of narrative can be heard and honestly, more just felt.

Yes.

That's the kind of peace that it can bring to people. Because I think all of a lot, every single thing we've talked about today is running when it comes to the disassociation from self and the way our society teaches us to disconnect, they're all happening on a very subtle, subconscious level at all times.

Yes.

And so if anyone is with us and you're feeling in your life. Okay. There's just this existential kind of background tension that I feel you're probably feeling that.

Yes.

You know, and there's probably some other things that you can have the honoring of your sadness and get the gifts of the wisdom that your sadness is bringing. And I'm curious how you feel about this concept of pain being a teacher.

Oh, yeah.

You know, I have learned so much in my life from going through the most painful experiences. I mean, even this podcast, man, the fruits of my labor, for you and I to sit right here and for us to have what we have. And I'm so grateful for it because I earned the wisdom.

Yes.

I tried to take the shortcuts and actually they were long cuts.

Wound up being a big ass distraction.

There's no such thing is shortcuts when it comes to being authentic.

Yes.

And I think our. Especially in marketing for, for podcasting, there's a lot of coaches and people out there that, that try to hook people and try to pay me ten grand and I'll give you the shortcut.

Sure.

There are some easier paths. And this is what I would love for you to. To share and expound upon, man. When it comes to learning from the wisdom of our pain as a teacher, one big massive thing in my integration from the quest and we were journaling, I'll never forget that we had just done the sweat lodge. I was like, I don't know if I can make it through another sweat lodge, Tim. And you're like, no, you're going to be okay. And I was laying after the sweat lodge and I was writing and I was like, wow. When I actually surrender to the wisdom of my teacher who is bringing pain, it allows me to be resilient like a tree who can blow with the wind in a storm and not snap. But if I'm resisting the wisdom of my pain teacher and I'm like, fuck you, pain. Get out of my life. I want the easy road, I want the shortcut, whatever it is. That's what actually makes me fragile.

Yes.

Is resisting the wisdom of my pain teacher. So how have you seen that come through in your own experiences? And also how can you practically apply that for people interested in Quest?

Yeah, again, big question. So a couple of thoughts. When we argue with reality, we lose straight up, Right? And of course, when we argue, when pain is our reality and we argue with it, we're going to lose. And I love this little equation. Suffering equals pain times resistance. Pain is part of life at times, and suffering is option.

Right.

And suffering is that function of the amount we resist the pain that we have. Now, I'm not Saying, I've got this mastered, but boy, is this one that I continue to work with. So pain is part of life. We live in a world that has this narrative that says happily ever after, that happily ever after is a thing that could be achieved. Bullshit. You know who, who has experienced that? Come on.

Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs or the Princess with the Glass Slipper. Disney taught us this.

Absolutely, absolutely. These are the really insidious narratives that get in the back, unconsciously into the back of our psyche. And then when we don't have that, when I'm not living happily ever after, there's a problem and there must be something wrong with me because everyone else around me is happy, right? That's the story that everyone's portraying. I mean, I grew up with this, right? Like in my family, household, we had all kinds of tension and conflict, but as soon as we left the front door, put a smile on, pretend like it's all good, and we're all doing that. And then people have pain and trauma and they think they're the only one. The amount of shame I've gone through thinking I was the only one, only to open up and realize, oh, my God, everyone around me has experienced their trauma too. And they've all that gratitude of like, thank you so much, Tim, for opening up, because, you know, it helped me, give me permission to address mine. This is a big, big stuff we're talking about, you know, big, big stuff. And so when we embrace that, you know, when we, when we can embrace the fact that, yes, you know, there's pain, and, and that has something to teach us. It's an empowering stance. Right. Like, my belief is that every moment in life is a teacher and there is some opportunity, a gift from every moment. And I know that's a big statement. This is someone who's speaking, who's experienced sexual abuse as a 6 year old. And I can say that statement and mean it about that experience. Does it mean that that was okay? Of course not. Does it mean that pain doesn't exist? No, pain is a very real thing. But is there something to learn from that? Is there a positive side to that? Yes, if I'm willing to hold that possibility. And so that goes for the worst of the worst trauma, that goes for all the minor stuff, everything in between. Otherwise, what's the alternative? Pain's not a teacher. Okay, then I'm in a victim standpoint, then I'm a victim to life, right? And when I'm in a victim standpoint to life, I lose, you know, I lose then that, that. Then I get into that negative spiral. Everywhere I go, everywhere I see, woe is me, you know, all. Why is all this shit happening to me? As opposed to, wow, you know, this is happening. It must be here for a reason. There must be some teaching here for me. There must be. Okay, I'm experiencing pain. It's hard. I'm willing to open up. I'm willing to share, I'm willing to receive support. I'm willing to feel vulnerable even though it's hard. And yeah, I'd rather have my Starbucks latte. Nope, I'm gonna open up and like, share the pain in my heart here, right? And from that I'll find a deeper connection. I'll connect with you vulnerably and oh my God, you know, there's something here for me. There's a bigger opportunity. I mean, I think of myself, you know, Josh. I mean, I. I had such toxic low self esteem the first 25, 30 years of my life from that abuse, from that bullying, I mean, intense bullying for like, you know, 8, 9, 10 years grade school and my parents divorce. I just thought I was a piece of shit, you know, I mean, I mean, that was. The message was like, everyone else is more important than you. You know, you don't matter. And so I internalized that and I believed it was true. And it was nature connection and the vision quest and all of those old practices that really saved my life and that turned me around and gave me hope, and that took years to come onto the other side of. But I have made it to the other side of that. Does it mean that it never shows up? No, of course it still shows up. But as I look back at my own visionary path every step of the way, when I look back and the actual actions I took to found my wilderness school or start Purpose Mountain or offer quests or get on podcasts each step of the way, I mean, I've had anxiety come up, right? And there's a certain amount of pain there. There's another layer of the story that I'm not important that comes up for me to face, and it's rearing its ugly head and it's sure as shit so believable. And it would be so much easier to just sit on the couch and watch Netflix and eat Doritos, then step forward and claim my authentic voice and take a risk and all the reasons in the world come up. What if people don't like it? What if I make a fool of myself, this, that, or the other, and all that Pain, all that old pain is back there because it wants to be healed. And if I'm courageous enough to say yes to that, to face that stuff and say, there's a bigger vision, there's a bigger truth. I know this is not real. Real. Yep. I know this is. These are my shadows coming up. Boy, it sure seems convincing. But I'm willing to step forward anyway. And sometimes my knees are fucking shaking. Sometimes I don't even know what words are going to come out of my mouth, but I'm going to say yes, I'm going to do this every time. Every time. Beauty, healing, transformation, vision, purpose comes forward each time I rewrite the story. Each time I learn to relate to those experiences in a different way and open up that possibility for somebody else.

It's so exciting to actually see the printing press, the one that's scripting the beliefs. Oh, my God. And be like, hey, I'm not going to be angry at this printing press anymore. The one that said I wasn't good enough or I'm too fat or I'm stupid or whatever it is. And I think that this phrase gets said a lot, but it's so perfect for this moment. And that is that hurt people. People hurt people. Yes.

Yeah.

And let that land for a moment. Like, don't try to intellectualize that. Like, we've talked about, when. When people are hurt, they unknowingly, subconsciously hurt other people. And I've done it in my own life.

Oh, we all have.

On the quest, many memories come came up where I was like, oh, yeah, I could have actually handled that a lot differently.

Yes.

And I could see my own projection of my own unhealed stuff with many of the women that I've had in my life and even in the relationship with my father, which has. Has transformed in such a beautiful way from. From this quest, in this process. And so. And so thinking of that metaphor of the printing press, you know, we're just getting the printing press from our father, our mother, who got it from their father and mother. And I said this a lot, but it completely is here for us. Alan Watts, one of the mentors that I would love to interview, he was like, it's all wretch and no vomit. Everyone's going, I know I shouldn't believe that printing press. I should probably treat my children differently. But no one ever throws it up, up, because vomiting. The beliefs of these printing presses can be really challenging. And so it's not to shame people and say, like, why aren't you being more crazy? It's more like if you're feeling the spark to, to be honest with the printing press of the beliefs, just have the courage to gather the support, the experiences like a quest and the, and the different scaffolding around the human being that you are. Because who you are is love.

Love.

That's who we really are.

Yes.

Like a feeling in my body just talking to you right now, like, yeah, we're loving beings. We're here on the planet to share and give and experience love. But we've become so, so muddled and, and so distracted by the trappings, you know, the things. And so in all the ground we've covered, man, which has been so awesome.

Yeah.

And I knew it was going to be great. But with all the ground that we've covered, is the, there, is there anything else that, that wants to be spoken by you about the specificity, the timing, the power of doing a, A vision quest and, and really the. How this relates to us climbing our own mountain? Yeah, everybody's. Everybody's climbing their own Purpose Mountain, which is the name of your company, purpose mountain.com.

Yeah.

So. So please unpack that a little bit. Is there anything else that wants to be shared? Shared?

Yeah. Well, you know, again, if we look at the times we live in, I imagine many years from now, a time when the humans have come back into right relationship with the earth on the whole, on the mainstream, right. That come back into right relationship with mystery, with spirit, with themselves. I imagine that the kids or the young people of that generation will look back into the past, which is like these days we're living in now. And they'll wonder, they'll wonder who were those brave people who lived in those dark, dark times, you know, who had the courage to stand up for what was right when it felt like everything was working against them, when to do what was right was completely going in the opposite of the flow of society itself. They'll wonder and they'll think, who had the courage to make the difference so that we could live this good life today? And my work, each day I wake up, my prayer is that I can be one of those people. I know I'm not going to do it all perfect, but I know that I can make a difference. I know that I'm thinking of our listeners like, yes, you have a purpose for being here. There is a reason you took birth, you took form on planet Earth at this time in this year. And if you're courageous enough, you know, that can be discovered, that can be felt, that can be found, will it require you to face yourself? Yes. Will it be easy? Probably not. Will you have to face your traumas? Probably. So is it the only life worth living at the end of your day is when you're laying on your deathbed, looking back, back? I can't see any other life that's worth living. I can't see any other way of living with myself other than discovering and seeking, discovering and living. My purpose, my vision. And so what I want people to know is that is available, whether it's me or there's others. But there is a good golden path forward. And in that, the connection to the earth is vital, and there's no substitute for it. I mean, feet on the ground, butt on the ground, getting dirty, cold, wet, dark, alone, bugs. All of that, plus all the beauty of sunrises and owls and coyotes howling in the night. And every other beautiful moment, there are raindrops falling from the pine needles. And that. That is available to each human being. That, that path, that connection to the earth, that their connection to their vital essence, their place in this world is possible, no matter how lonely, how afraid, how broken, whatever that is available. And my message is that to listen to that pain, be brave, take courage, reach out, get support. We're all waiting for you. And when you make that choice, when you say yes to life, life says yes to you. We talk about this in our programs. People talk about the crazy synchronicities. We ran this vision quest in early May in North Idaho, which is like, normally we would have had total rainstorms and cold, and the whole quest was beautiful weather. And I remember in the last few days, it got a little colder, and we had a little rain and clouds. And one of the participants came in and she was all nervous. She's like. Like, oh, is this a bad sign? Did we do something wrong? I said, no, my God, no. No. You don't realize. It was a good sign. The past week that we had all that amazing weather. That was a huge blessing, you know, And I can't tell you, Josh, how many times I've seen that, that when we serve the earth, the Earth serves us right. And all manner of synchronicities begin to unfold in our support, you know, cheering us on, supporting us along the way. When we say yes to our vision, you know, life opens up and meets us, but it's not about waiting until the perfect time and all your ducks are in a row. The old Odawa peacemaker I mentioned earlier, the Anishinaabe man, he used to say, you know, if you Wait till you're ready. You'll never be ready. Right? I mean, there it is. So, like, what are you waiting for? When you look. When again, I mean, the deathbed perspective. Looking back on life. I know I go through this all the time.

Time.

I'm going to look back and really look back at my life and say, you know, where. Where did I hesitate? And my God, in that moment, wouldn't I give. What would I give to have one more hour, one more day, one more year, you know, to make a difference and have an impact and leave my ripples in this world. That day is today. We all have that opportunity, whether that's on the micro, on the macro, macro, whatever. Wherever your stage of development is, that's possible. So, you know, I just. I love life, you know, and I believe in life. I'm a hopeful man, you know, because when I go out into the natural world, what I see is life regenerating itself, right? Life keeps coming. And when I surrender to my purpose, my path, when I see others do the same, what happens inside of our hearts, inside of our spirits? Regeneration, you know, I can't help but to be a hopeful man when I see everywhere around me. When we say yes to life, good things emerge. So that's my message to all of our listeners right now, is say yes. If that's with me, then great. If it's with somebody else, that's great, too. But say yes.

All right, well, I'm going to go on record and say. Make sure you say us to Tim from my own experience. Right. Because that's the greatest gift we can ever give to anyone is our own sharing of our own experience. And the greatest disservice I feel like we could ever give is trying to speak from unearned wisdom or speak from something that we don't really know, but we think might be good for others. So what I can share, man, that I'm so grateful for with every single cell in my body, like from my toes to my teeth, is thank you for the ultimate gratitude of reconnecting me. Not just to dissolve the veil between myself and mother, but also to really come back home to me.

Yeah.

You know, for a long time in my life, I was searching, searching, seeking, scratching. And I still will. But my search is more at the pace of nature. Because when I go and I take intentional time to be outside and to be with the earth. Yesterday, Carrie and I walked with our bare feet and we took photos of her in her pregnancy. And just, like, feeling the natural discomfort of that, and then Relaxing into discomfort. Comfort of just being barefoot and having it be wet with mosquitoes and all these things. This is who we are. So thank you, man, for in part and parcel, connecting me back to a part of self that really I wasn't truly aware of. And that is the greatest gift that I can give to Wellness Force. So with all that said, at the nexus of everything that we experience in life, which is physical, emotional, spiritual, and even financial, the quadrant plus one one. How would you, at this current level of your development, the father you are, the business owner you are, everything you're doing. How would you define wellness? What is your definition of living life? Well.

Well, first, let me say you're welcome. It's been an absolute honor to support you on your journey.

Feels good to receive that from you, man.

Yeah. How would I define wellness? Oh, my gosh, that another big question. Well, I do hold the four realms of life as sacred. Sacred, Right. Physical, mental, emotional, spiritual. And that includes a lot more. I mean, it includes our relationships, it includes our finances, it includes our connection to the earth. But wellness is. Is a state of being where I'm living in integrity with all four of those realms, right? Like, I am taking care of my body. I am listening to my body.

Body.

I'm experiencing physical health, right? I am looking at what I'm putting into my body. I'm looking at what's coming out of my body. I am looking. I'm in a state of wellness with my. My mind. You know, I'm using my mind for what it's designed for, you know, to talk. We didn't talk too much about meditation, but a big part of the medicine of the quest is learning to cultivate the quiet mind, the sacred silence, Right? And I was always taught by my elders that the power of the mind is about. It's not about the insanity of the thought monkey that we all experience these days, but the true power of the mind is the ability to hold a vision, an image of the future, and see that take shape in this world, manifest in a beautiful way. Also, the power of the mind is learning to quiet the mind. And when we quiet our mind, a whole doorway opens up to an entirely new realm of connection. Spiritual connection. Right? So the body, the mind, wellness of mind, wellness of emotions. You know, this whole piece of emotional maturity. I would say wellness of emotions is. Yes. Awareness of acceptance of and healthy expression of our emotions and sharing that. What does that imply? That implies relationships, healthy relationships. Does it mean that conflict never happens? No, of course not. The goal of life and Relationships isn't to avoid conflict. It's to learn to relate with that in a good way and see relationships and conflict as teacher just as much as pain. Pain in relationships as teacher, then spiritual well being, you know, to recognize that we are of this earth and our spiritual connection stems from it. We are of this earth and it matters, right? And that's a practice just like we eat food every day, you know, practicing staying in right relationship with the earth personally and in community. And then the spiritual wellness in terms of, of the ongoing journey of seeking our purpose, our vision in life. And never, you know, I mean, again. My experience is I oftentimes don't know in the moment, I still don't know. I've 20 years in, you know, I still oftentimes don't quite know. Is this it? Is it not? I think it is. I slow down and more and more I'm able to feel it and get, and get more connected there. But typically it's still in hindsight, you know, until I'm very, very clear about it. But I know that the journey of life means continuing to seek my purpose and not settling for the status quo, continuing to seek that vision, not settling for being in a rut and push my edge in a healthy way, not into crazy overwhelm. Although sometimes that happens. And working and giving everything I have to that vision. You know, maybe the last thought I'll share on this. I'm sure you're familiar with Abraham Maslow and Maslow's hierarchy of nature. And his first iteration that's most well known puts self actualization at the top, right? With the basic physical needs on the bottom, and then social emotional needs kind of in between. And boy, did that always push my buttons that the very top of that whole pyramid was self actualization. I mean, if that's not a concept rooted in the disconnection of modern society, I don't know what is, you know, and what I later learned is that he spent time with an indigenous tribe, I think it was the Flathead people of western Montana, which is fairly close to where I'm at. And he redid it. He made an addendum to that. And he actually voiced that that is not the ultimate goal of life, but the ultimate goal of life is to give oneself to the land and to one's people. And that brought so much hope for me because that's always how I see it. The goal of my life isn't to actualize myself and be the best I can be. The goal is I want to lay on my deathbed and look back and say, I gave every ounce of my life energy to my people and to the land. Then I think I can die fulfilled.

Tim, I got so much respect for you, man. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for being here in my home. And the one thing I'll leave people with before we give people a place where they can go and experience this is this phrase that was told to me on the podcast four years ago by a man named Ted Rice. And he was sharing with me. The graveyard is the richest place in the world because in the graveyard there are trillions of dollars of great ideas, purposes and dreams totally unfulfilled. And so let this be a beacon for all of us to not like white knuckle and strive, but like to really ground into what your purpose actually is and have the courage to not die with it. And that's really what we've explored today, man. So purpose mountain.com is where people go?

Absolutely.

But just share with people. There's many different aspects of your work. So there's group and individual and there's also the, the quest. But did I miss anything? Like, what are the other ways that people engage?

Also.

Also younger dads with. With sons for your Wilderness school?

Yeah, yeah. So in terms of what we're talking about today, Purpose Mountain.com is definitely the place to check out and get on my list there. I do offer one on one mentoring in person and remotely on the phone as well as in person, Vision Quest. Those are the two big offerings at Purpose Mountain. And then I also run the Wilderness school, which I referenced a few times. That's Twin eagles wilderness school, www.twineagles.org. and my wife Janine and I have been running that for, yeah, over 15 years. That's much more locally based, working on cultivating that place based community. Yes. Up in Sandpoint. So we're serving Sandpoint, Idaho, Spokane, Washington, Coeur d', Alene, Idaho. And so we run tons of programs year round. Youth programs, adult programs. We've got a big giant summer camp season that's about to start up. Yeah, I do father son wilderness programs that are actually really, really increasing in popularity. And guys are coming out from all around doing those.

What's the earliest age that kids can be to six, six years old? Okay, so I got six years and I could come bring Nova to the school.

There you go, man.

That's gonna be, that's gonna be a cool moment, man. I really look forward to that. Anything else that you can direct people to? I also know, you know, what was helpful for me when I first met you was the purpose discovery kit that you have on your website. So even if, obviously if you're feeling the. The call, answer the call. But if you're curious about the call, Tim has a purpose discovery kit on his website. Yeah, so just share a little bit about that too.

Yeah, yeah, that's like a. I don't know, it's a few. It's a PDF workbook I created just to help guide people through a little. Get. Get a little taste of the work, you know, connecting to the earth, connecting to their. Their soul, their purpose. And so it's a free download. People just hop on there and. And grab that and yeah, I have. I've been doing more and more podcasts, you know, you and Aubrey and Ben Greenfield and a bunch of different folks, so people can. Can get online and search and, you know, hear me speak more in other podcasts as well. But I got to say, hey, man, this is like, so cool. And in many ways, this is kind of my dream come true because for all the podcasts I've done, it's rare that I have the host who has actually personally experienced the full depth of my work, you know, and that obviously is the case here. So I just want to say it's an honor for me, Josh, to have been here and. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful to connect here with you and your home.

Thank you, Tim, for being a part of my growth, growth. And you guys, we are wishing you so much love and wellness purpose. Mountain.com we're talking about this in the Wellness Force group, wellnessforce.com so until Tim and I see you guys next week, or maybe Tim can be a Facebook live, I feel like there's all kinds of good things that are going to come from this. I'm seeing things in the future. Depending on how many people want to engage, maybe we could do something really special with Wellness Force and have an outing in nature. If you guys want that, let me know in the comments. So until Tim and I see you again, again, we're both wishing you love and wellness.