Top Therapist: “This 1 Phrase Ended 90% of My Arguments”

One of the things that's really helped eliminate about nine out of 10 arguments in our home. When somebody's telling you about something, are you looking for comfort or solutions? Males? You know, my first impulse is, get in there and fix it.

Me too. Just, boom, where's the problem? I got the solution. Yeah, that's like the go to for me.

Yeah.

For most men, communication that we all deal with as human beings is something that I am constantly interested in mastering.

And that we're really struggling, struggling with today.

We definitely are.

And that's like, we shouldn't be doing that. There's another way.

What a treat to be able to sit with you. It's been so many decades of you diving into this work. You're the author of Nonviolent Communication the Basics as I Know and use them. If you're on YouTube watching this with us. This book is so powerful. You distilled all the wisdom from one of your colleagues, Marshall Rosenberg. How did y' all even meet? This is the question I want to lead off with. How did you meet Marshall Rosenberg? It was 1986.

Is that how you came six? Yep. And he had been. Some people somehow stumbled on him and said, well, why don't you come to a training? We've got some people that will join. And so he came once and then people said, oh, they really like him. And I'm like, whatever. Well, then I started to date a lady who spoke in ways that were very triggering for me and Marshall in the way he presents nonviolent communication. He uses a Jackal puppet to represent the unhappy ways to speak and a giraffe puppet to represent the non violent communication ones. So this lady was very well trained in the language of Jackal, and it was just getting harder and harder and I really didn't know how to deal with it. So the two of us went. And that's what got me introduced to it. And I just realized after going through it that there was a lot of improvement and change that I could make in how I went about communicating. And that this really had the potential to make relationships easier, to create stronger and deeper in bond and to be able to repair them, because repair is needed. I mean, I've had people say, ask me, well, do you talk like this? Because there's a format which will cover. Do you talk like this all the time with the four pieces of information? And I go, oh, no way. That would be. That would be overwhelming. I said, I asked that of Marshall once and he said, no, no, no, I don't. I don't do that. But what I've done is I've got very good at cleaning up my messes. So that's when I want to quickly create or try to quickly create a deep connection with somebody. Then I will be very conscientious about conveying certain pieces of information regarding me and them in particular ways that I have learned really create a great opportunity for that connection to happen. For instance, I could say to you, I feel such deep gratitude that you're interested, that you have a channel that this can go out to people, because it's something I very. I very much have enjoyed exploring. But today, people are having so much difficulty talking together and working together that, yeah, more than ever, I want to just sort of bring out the basic point, which is we all come from the same evolutionary process. In recent times, say the last 60,000 years, we split and, you know, set ourselves up in different parts of the world, and then the individual groups decided their own little rules and their own little, you know, culture and all that kind of stuff. So there's a lot of diversity there. But prior to that, there's about 50, 45 million years of our primate ancestors working out how to live in a group format as a collective. We've been successful at doing that, and it's, I believe, the reason that we are the most successful species and have been able to spread so broadly, because we have really learned how to work and take advantage of the group phenomena. So we don't need to have everybody be brilliant. We need to have one brilliant person and then a whole bunch of people that could implement that. Whereas if you live in a small group, well, you know, I want a smart person in my group, you know. But we've been able to divide up the work and do the specializing. And the pace of what we're learning about and capable of doing is really been accelerated by the whole digital, you know, showing up in our pathway.

Because, no doubt what you're doing, it's almost like we're in a vortex. By the way, I feel like I'm 42 and. And you think you're in your 50s now. Right.

So 72.

Okay. Well, you look great.

That's because I use some of your product.

That's right. He was using the. The spray for his synapses. No, the reason I was saying that is because we're in this cyclone where consciousness, like my experience, at least, I'm curious what yours is. It feels like it's accelerating the faster we go. It's almost like the law of compounding. Returns where everything's stacking upon one another. Do you get this? The reason I'm asking that is because in the relationship construct, in my relationship with my woman and I think so many people's hearts, there is just this complete misunderstanding and a deep wounding of being misunderstood. And that's really the most beautiful deep dive we could do to kick this off is like.

And there's some very simple, very simple things if you know, to make that happen.

And from that misunderstanding comes the closure of our hearts, comes more walls that we put up with one another. So, you know, with that as a pre frame, tell people what NVC actually is in its most simplistic form. I know we'll go deeper into it, right? But on a 30, on a 30,000 foot level, what exactly is NVC?

Well, let me start with what NVC isn't what Marshall refers to as violent communication. And I had a, I had an inmate once who was in an outpatient program and I was teaching him non violent communication. He goes, do you mean you think we talk violent? Like, oh, no, no, you're fine. That was funny. But at any rate, being judgmental, diagnosing people telling us that they're our opinion, telling them our opinion of what they've done, of their intellect, of their reasoning or whatever, making demands, speaking more really from the analytical part of our, ourselves. You know, let me tell you how I think you've been doing. And all of that kind of stuff tends to really disrupt the ability to communicate to each other the most important stuff, which is, well, how are you doing regarding whatever it is we're talking about and how am I doing? That's what we want to talk about. We don't want to talk about my opinions of you. Your opinions of me. This is my belief based on what I read so far. There are parts of our brain that are, that operate automatically that, that are out of our purview. And I think that's because it's more efficient if you know this particular process, like an initial assessment of threat or safety that happens. Boom. Like that.

It's like our brain's always trying to save calories. That's where heuristics come from, these shortcuts.

Yeah, yeah. So one of the things we've had to learn to do as a species and other ones have as well, is to make very quick assessments. When we first encounter something, we judge it as being good, bad, worthy, not worthy, safe or unsafe. Safe or unsafe. And that happens just automatically inside of us. Now if I just vocalize and I Say, well, you know, I think you kind of, you know, that was a stupid thing to do. Well, now that's my assessment. Non violent communication. We're not wanting you to talk about each other's assessment and you know, blaming and all of that stuff because it doesn't really get you anywhere that you really enjoy going. Yeah, and that's the point. Just get somewhere that you enjoy. What we do instead is we focus the conversation on how are you doing, what's going on in you, what event. So there's that the sort of standard structure is. The four topics that we want to address as we're communicating with each other are. Number one, what is it that I've thought about, observed what's been done? You know, I want to convey in a value neutral way a description of where my reaction is coming from. So I might say when I was talking the other day and your eyes slowly closed and I kept talking and you fell asleep. Now that's a value neutral description. I could so you that at least you know what it is that my topic is. That's where my so you're literally focused.

You're just observing a neutral event.

Yeah, I'm describing a new. I'm describing an event in a neutral way. It might be, you know, when I remember how blah, blah, blah, blah blah happened, you know, and then so that's letting somebody know what's basically what's the origin of my need to talk or whatever, then I want to talk about the emotions that are tied into that. So I might say when I noticed that your eyes closed and then you finally fell asleep. And a further addition to that what happened piece is I was right at a point in sharing with you that I thought was the most important point. Now I've just described everything, talking about me and describing just in a neutral way, objective way, how what was happening. Okay, now I move to the feeling part. So when I noticed that and I thought about Guy, this is really a really important thing I was talking about and I wanted him to be able to track. I just feel really sad, frustrated, puzzled. Okay, so that's the feeling. Those are the feelings. What am I needing relative to this situation or what was a needing that generated these emotions. So that's the fourth piece. So there's the event talked about in value neutral way. There the emotions tied into it and then there's where those emotions come from, which is my need. If I'm very good in talking a non violent communication way. My need was really to see how what I shared with you Touched you.

Is that the request? Because the last phase is the request.

The last phase is to make a request. Yes, that's me just telling you what my need was at that moment. Because when that need wasn't being met because it looked like you fell asleep, that's where my hurt feelings came from. That's. I was puzzled why you lost attention. I didn't know what it meant. So I've now described to you sort of three aspects of what's going on in me about that situation. The fourth piece of information that is part of the standard protocol for non violent communication is for me to, if there's something specific that I would like you to do or to have be done to make a, make that request. So I might say, could you tell me what was going on over went on your side? I might ask that. Or I might say, can you tell me how you feel about what I've just said? But I, I end it with. And I might just say I want to check. Do you feel like you understand? Is any, any part of that confusing? So that's the. What would I like? That would sort of be the next dedicated step for me. So you've got the event that's being reacted to, the emotional part and the fact that those emotions are the children of the needs that are tied into it that weren't met in this case. But I could have been talking about, you know, when you're, when you lean forward and you really like got really enthralled. That might have been what happened. Well, then the feelings would be. I was really pleased and happy because I wanted to see if you really were touched by this. And I saw that you were. So that's what I was needing. I wanted to see if I could touch you or see what your reaction was. So the thing about emotions is they come in two basic flavors. They come in pleasant, comfortable and distressing. Painful.

Yeah. Because practicing NVC in this model, when you're triggered and you're tasting the dark bitter fruit, is not always as easy. Right here. It's a beautiful space for in your home. You're explaining the model of nvc. There's no triggers. We're not angry at each other.

That's right.

But with a partner, I can definitely say this in my own experience. Experience when I'm triggered from past resentments, from past pain, from even trauma.

Right.

Especially around couples that have been through traumatic birth experiences, stuff like this. Do you find that it becomes way harder to practice this NVC model?

Absolutely. In that experience, higher the intensity of what's going on in you.

Yes.

The more challenging it can be.

And why is that? Is it a psychological or a biological or both?

Well, I. I think it's both. I think it's. Well, I don't know. I'm sure I would separate biological psychological. Because it's all one package. Yeah. You know, my psychology is the product of my biology. You know, my brain's doing whatever the heck it's doing, and thank God it knows how to do stuff I have no idea how to do.

Yeah.

But I think the more intense the pain is, the harder it is to kind of have that ability to step back. Back away from a little bit and talk about what event, the anger and all that kind of stuff is usually because anger. Marshall said this, and I found it to be completely true. Whenever I'm angry, the way I go from being hurt or sad to being angry is some part of me decides that what was done was not right or wasn't supposed to happen. So I bring a moralistic sort of, like putting on glasses that have moralizing lenses, and I look at what happened in a way where I see what's right and wrong about it that makes me really angry. If I just go with that anger, then you're probably gonna have a very hard time hearing me, and you're not gonna know the vulnerability that's really the driver of my angry reaction. So it's. It's really hard to have that ability to kind of step back a little bit. And I very often don't pull that off initially, But I've gotten very good at, like, oh, all right. So where did I go in terms of, you know, this process and what I know works and what did I do? Okay, let me see what was missing? All right, so let me give you an example. I was talking with a friend a couple of weeks ago who was having trouble with her gait. Now, being 70, everybody generally has something rather that they struggle with. All right, so he had adopted this kind of shuffling gait, and he was tripping a lot. And he said it was that because during the COVID he just. He was retired. He just sat at home and read. And he thinks he just got really deconditioned. Well, when I heard that he'd fallen down several times during the week, I got scared and I worried. So I started asking him questions, like, because he was saying, I don't really know if. You know, I don't really like exercise. And I said, but if it is deconditioning and you don't do Something about it. Are you gonna. Are you. Are you. Would you prefer to live with the consequences of that or live with the discomfort of having to get yourself conditioned? Well, and then somebody else said something or asked him a question, whatever, then he stopped us all, and he says, you know, you're making me feel like a little kid who's done something wrong, and you're guilting me, and I just don't want that.

How would you describe that behavior? Because you're doing something from a neutral space, right. Where you're with this person and you're applying, you know, all these decades of learning that you have working with patients in a clinical setting. So from that lens, what behavior? How would you describe the behavior of that person? I am 100 sure that everybody with us right now has experienced that exact behavior from their partner.

Oh, yeah.

What is that behavior? How would you describe.

Well, I think he heard me critic. Critically appraising what he did or didn't do or wanted to do or didn't want to do, and. And trying to push him to do the right thing. So for.

So he felt pushed.

Yeah, he felt.

He felt like he was trying to be coerced into something.

Yeah, yeah. Don't try to guilt me into it. Don't try to, you know, manipulate me into it. Don't try to shame me into it. You know, I don't want that. All right. So fortunately, Helen, my wife, was next to me, and she goes, why don't you tell him what you're feeling? Because she knows. Not in violent communication.

Yeah.

And I go, oh, okay. I want to have you able to be my friend and do things with me, you know, indefinitely. And I'm frightened. Okay. That just dissolved the tension.

Yeah.

Because he saw the dream I have, which I was afraid couldn't be met. And so I went into a strategy which was trying to do these things that didn't work for him. But the dream I had, which is the need and the fear that it couldn't be met, those are the two central pieces for nonviolent communication. Feeling in the related need. When a person is able to get to that level of recognition of what's driving them, what really matters the most, and share that with somebody else, it can completely change the ball game. And that's one of the wonderful things about this method is. Well, let me give you another example. So years ago, we were. My wife started a book club probably 40 some years ago when we got married 20 years ago, I started to go, well, reading is difficult for me. And I'm very slow at it. So, you know, after several years I said, you know, I often don't read the whole book and you know, I feel badly about that. And then I feel a sense of pressure thing. And I'm just kind of thinking I, you know, I just don't think I'll go to book club anymore if that's okay. She started to get very upset about the idea of me not coming. And I thought she sort of tried to answer the problems I was having, like, well, maybe if you and I could just see there was something really bothersome that was going on. And I said, what is it about me attending book club that makes that mean a lot to you? So see, I'm going right for what need is driving your sort of not exactly desperation, but your tension. And it was, well, I started this 30 years ago and I'm really proud of how it's stayed and that we've had men and everything. And I just, I want to share that with you. And I go, so when was the next book club scheduled?

That melted you?

It just melted me. Yeah, it just melted me. And that's the power. Nothing magical about nonviolent communication. For me it's powerful because it's really understood some really key things about what creates connection between people. That what is talked about is done in a value free, non judgmental way. That what's talked about is what's going on in each person on a vulnerable level rather than let's have a dialogue about this, this, this, you know, debate. And then when we are able, and sometimes it's like an archaeological dig, I go, well, okay, so you want this. And then if that happened, what would make that good? Well, that and we finally some where you will get to. Oh, that's why. And yes, the outcome is a bi directional desire to be, to cooperate, to help. And it's spontaneous.

Do you feel like this method could work even if one partner was unwilling to allow the method in? In other words, if, let's say for an example, I'm in a relationship and my woman is upset about the house being dirty or me not being home at a certain time and I chose to close my heart, not apply any of this methodology whatsoever. And it could flip the other way too.

Sure.

Where, you know, I'm upset with her because she didn't hang out my laundry or whatever it is.

Yeah.

Something that means something to me. It means that there's an unmet need. And I loved how you talked about that because really it is simple. It's observation, feeling Needs and request, like that's the framework. It's not like we're reinventing a square here, but the way that you've described the square and what you learned with Rosenberg and, and also your clinical practice and everything you've seen. Can you take us to a situation or maybe we can even role play it right now, where one partner is actually unwilling to allow the NVC in and to allow any kind of healing to happen?

How do you do that? Let's do, let's do a practice.

Let's do it.

Okay. So assign me my role or whatever I do.

That's okay. Let's say you are the mother of my child.

Okay. Yes. Hi.

We live together.

You're really handsome.

And let's just say, let's say that I'm not feeling respected. So I experience. My observation is that I've been experiencing a shortness, attention, a bit of anger, and certain things that around the house, specifically this, this and this haven't been completed. Can you tell me more about that? So that's, that's what I would observe to start with. So why, why, why do you feel like that is. Or am I, am I on the right base with you?

Which sounds like. Now, am I supposed to play the person who's having trouble doing nvc?

Yes, and I've never practiced this, by the way.

Okay.

All right, so I'm going to do my very best with the observation, the feeling, the needs and the request.

Okay, so I'm going to give you the unenlightened Jackal.

Yes, give me the Jackal. You know, and for everyone with us, too, before we even go into this, because I can already feel it in my stomach. This ain't going to be comfortable. And it's good because we need to, we need go here. All of us need to go here. The, the. Quickly explain the giraffe and the jackal. You've said I heard in media that the giraffe has the biggest heart.

Marshall wanted to use puppets for some reason, so he could demonstrate the different ways of talking. So he have the Jackal talk in what he called jackal language, which, you know, criticism, blame, guilt, demands, you know, that kind of stuff. Yes. And then the giraffe was the model for nonviolent communication. Well, he chose Jackal because for some reason, in the English language, the term, the label jackal represents somebody who's a scoundrel, who's a troublemaker, and you can't trust him and whatever. Whatever. Well, the reality is that jackals are very sweet animals. So I teased him about that. I said, you know, I think you've heard a lot of Jackals feelings because they're very sweet, they're very family oriented and everything else. And he just, well, I'm so sorry. I wish I'd not done that. But he chose the giraffe because they have the largest heart of any land animal. And also because they are so tall, they can. They see the long view. So they're not just getting stuck in.

The moment and their neck is very exposed.

Yeah.

They're literally.

Yeah, yeah.

Sticking their neck out into nature and.

They'Re willing to stick their neck. And that's, that's part of what you're doing. If you, if you speak in the kind of. You address the things that people address in non violent communication, you're sticking your neck out because you're revealing your vulnerability.

It behooves us to be the giraffe if we want to be loving.

Oh. And if we want to be loved, you know, it really helps.

Yeah.

So anyway, that's the jackal and the giraffe.

Okay.

So.

So my goal right now is to be the giraffe.

Okay.

That's my goal.

Okay.

But I'm gonna experience a job.

I'm gonna be the jackal. Well, it sounds like. God, you have no idea how hard I work. All the crises, all of the. This is. And that's the day to day Monday. All this stuff I do. It sounds like you're just criticizing me because I'm not perfect. That just pisses me off.

I hear you. That must be really hard to feel that way. And I have some feelings of my own, too. I'm feeling sad because maybe you don't want me to be in the house with you, or maybe you don't want me to be around you. And that makes me feel grief and despair, actually.

Well, sometimes it is hard. Sometimes there are ways that you act or, you know, treat me or whatever that are really a struggle. See, I'm having a hard time staying in Jackal.

But you've trained yourself enough to not be in Jackal mode for so long.

I'm gonna, so I'm gonna try to stick with, why don't we do this?

Why don't we just flip it then? Because we started the exercise.

I was going to suggest that we.

Started the exercise of me just kind of fumbling through it, which is so cool. We don't edit this at all because this is what most people are going to do. Yeah, they're gonna. I actually modeled what most people Will do. Which is they'll fumble through the start. So let's flip it around. So you're the master. You're the giraffe. And by the way, I definitely know how to be a jackal.

Oh, but see, that's not your fault.

Right?

That is how we train people to speak.

Yes.

You know, it's yes, get the right answer, make the right, you know, appraisal. Things are supposed to be judged right and wrong. There is no. Not there as of yet. There's no understanding in my mind of how human being really works. And therefore, let's structure communication methodology that takes advantage of that. Well, that's what nonviolent communication does. It's why I want to talk about it, because intellectual, judging opinions, you know, criticism that just keeps us in a miserable loop and. But we don't know how to do something different. So that's what. That's what nonviolent communication is about. So.

So I'm going to be the jackal. I'm going to be the. The language of.

Okay, okay, you're.

I'm going to be demanding, and you're going to be the giraffe, which is loving.

Okay. All right. So are you going. Are you coming at me with the complaint that you're not getting enough respect?

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

I need you to mature.

I need.

I need you to mature up, be a man.

I'm not sure what you're describing. Could you tell me what mature would look like? Because, I mean, a lot of respects.

I just need to feel more supported. I need to feel more supported, and I need you to ask less of me.

Okay, and what kind of. What do you need that would give you a sense of being more supportive? What is supporting you more look like?

I don't know. I just need things to be more easy. I need us to be in harmony.

Well, we're on the same page there. I really enjoy being in harmony with you, and it's sad and worrisome to me to see that you're in so much pain. But rather than sort of, you know, defending me or whatever, I'd really first like to take the time to understand what you're meaning, what you're addressing, and the ways in which it matters to you and how you feel about it.

So there's just so much resentment I have towards you. That's probably what this is about. I just resent you so much.

And can you tell me if you gave that resentment a voice? What. What does it sound like? What does it. What does it say?

I need More. I need to be more free. I need to be more independent.

Ah. Okay.

I feel like you're squashing me. I feel like I can't do what I want.

Ah. So. Okay, so what I'm hearing is that it's really important for you to feel that you have free agency, more free agency, and you can kind of follow your own timing or inclination or style or whatever. That. That's just really, really important to you.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

You're saying that you're not given that. Can you tell me some of the ways that that's so heavy.

I can't deal with this. I just feel like you're, you're coaching me. I don't like this.

Well, I don't like being coached either. And can. Can I tell you what I am trying to do? I guess I'm wanting to talk about this in a way where we can get some resolution. And so some of the stuff that I'm asking for, it just generally is helpful to be able to talk about that stuff. And I don't want to coach you. I'm what I wanted. I'm wanting to. I'm wanting to learn about you and what this is like for you. That's all I'm. That's all I'm seeking. Because I don't really understand when you say you really feel like you don't have the freedom, you don't feel like you're respected or whatever, it's just because.

You'Re part of the patriarchy.

Oh, what can tell me what the patriarchy is? What does that mean?

You know what it is. Don't play stupid.

Well, now. Now we need a brain transplant so that I would understand what Josh means by the patriarchy. So I'm.

I'm really being a hard jackal here because, Because.

No, but I, I. Well, okay, but you're going to have to sort of like, I don't know what you mean by that.

So you can say, I don't know either. I'm just saying it because this is something that I've heard and I've, I've.

I've seen this in the hierarchy, like how men treat women and men are. So you're supposed to. So you're acting like the hierarchy? Is that what you said? That I'm acting like the hierarchy? Okay. All right. So the hierarchy is. My needs are more important than yours. You should be subservient. You should be. You should grant me what I need. And is that. That. That what the hierarchical way of relating looks like? All right.

I'm still in the role, y'.

All.

Yes, yes. It just. Men. Men, you know, the patriarchy is about controlling women.

Wow. Boy. That is not a way I would like to live with you. And if I'm coming across that way, I want to find out what it is I'm doing so I have a chance to do it differently. Because I see the beauty, the intellect, the wisdom, the intuition, all that stuff in you, and I want to be able to enjoy that and not have you, you know, really unhappy and shutting down with me. And so can you. Do you have any idea about if I did this instead of that? What would be non hierarchical for you? Because I want to change. Obviously, I'm doing something I'm not aware of.

Yes.

Because my dream in marrying you is I really want to have great time with you. And clearly I'm really, really sorry to hear that you're in so much pain about this, and I just want to be able to work our way through and learn from it and try to figure out something to do different. I don't want to keep doing whatever it is that I do that leaves you feeling that way and your tension gets up because.

Yeah. Wow. Let's break roll for a minute. That was so. That was mastery. You know, what I experienced from you, obviously, we don't have history together, so there's not a lot of subconscious memories that triggered that are resentment based. But what I experienced from you there, if we can all learn how to do that, is. You really would pause after each one of my statements. You wouldn't. There. There was more of a response. There wasn't like an immediate reaction to what I was saying. So that. That was key. I don't know exactly where that falls into the. To the model, but it's in there. And then the second thing I felt from you was like this genuine, almost loving curiosity that I think.

Exactly right.

Gets lost when there's layers of resentment.

Why the hell am I married to you in the first place?

Yes. Like, what are we even doing here together?

Yeah. And are we doing it in the way that the needs are being met? Heck, no.

Yeah.

But I married. See, what I did was I went down to the deepest level of the dream I have for how things would be. And I told you what it was just like when Helen said, this is really special. I'm very proud of it. I'd like to share it with you. That's the deep level. It's not. She wasn't throwing a rule. Well, you know.

Yeah.

Men are supposed to do this and did it. I was able to walk with her to get to that point of tell me what makes that so important. So that's what happened. And the pausing is, is just me wanting to really try to absorb and understand what you're saying and sort of figure out what might be a good next step to facilitate kind of the opening up of this and whatever.

Would you say that if you had, let's say, a 10 year history with someone and there was a lot of unresolved trauma, unresolved resentment, and the flavor of the interactions, even if one person was really standing strong. Let's just use for an example. And it could work both ways. The woman could be practicing NVC with the man who's triggered, or vice versa. I'm just doing it because I'm a man, I'm in a man's body. So if I was holding the space, if I was really being the anchor, I was breathing, I was pausing, I was practicing the model. And I have inside of me so much pain, so much resentment towards my partner because there's things that have not been washed away. Do you think that NVC alone could actually handle this or is there other tertiary work that needs to be put in place?

Oh, I don't think I could, you know, make a, you know, a sort of a general declaration in that.

But in your clinical experience, is NVC enough?

Here's my clinical experience. My clinical experience is that 95, at least percent of the time the couples that I worked with, their problem wasn't that they didn't have the same values or goals in life or whatever, you know, the laundry or whatever it was that they didn't know how, they didn't know how to repair when they got into a miserable kind of a thing over something. Yeah. Now, if they do the basics of non violent communication and tried to approach the issue using that, then they might not get into a pickle, but it's the ability to repair. And the what for me helps me repair is I have this framework and I'm going, what's going on with each of those four pieces of information? Does she know what I want right now?

Yeah.

Have I really clarified, even within myself, why such and such is so important to me? The feelings. Da, da, da. So, all right, now you're talking about a situation where you got two people in a heightened state of pain, totally unregulated.

Yes.

Right. One thing that's huge is for me, what I call it, trying to reside in the heart of the giraffe. And that is I look at that person and I go, they have the same set of needs for connection and whatever, you know, respectful. They have the same thing that I do. The way they're going about it is really not working, but they're not. They. They've gotten somehow, for whatever reason, desperate. But there is a very positive vulnerability down behind all of that stuff in the front. And I just hold that awareness that this is a good person, because I know they're a good person. And we're just really fumbling and stumbling because we haven't figured out how to really sort this thing. And that person may only know to take my inventory and, you know, try to shame me or whatever, whatever. But what they're wanting is something I know that's good. So the whole thing of people on the left being able to talk with people on the farther right and, you know, people. We're just having a crisis there. So we were going up to my wife's best friend's brothers for Christmas, and I was told before we left, do not bring up politics, because the man, we'll call him Bill, Bill, is a staunch Republican, and it just won't go well. He's just. Just don't. Please promise me you won't do that. I don't want you to ruin Christmas. So I go, I won't do that. Well, Bill and I have become close, and we really enjoy each other. And so one morning, he goes, I go out every morning to have coffee. You want to come with me? So I go with him, and I don't bring up politics. We're talking about this, that, and the other. And then the subject somehow comes up of the turmoil going on in our country. And I'm going, all right, where do I go with this that I think might end up being constructed? And where I went was, I think, underneath all of the ideas and da, da, da, da. We all have exactly the same needs. And we don't realize that we're forgetting that.

What do you think those needs actually are?

We want a government that is efficient, that does what it needs to do for the people, that reflects the people, that is, you know, financially responsible. We want a government that really works.

How about honesty? How about a government that's just honest? There is that which actually subverts the entire structure of the government that exists now.

Okay, but. Okay, so what happens to me when I hear you say that as you go. Alarm turns on. Because that sounds like a complete blanket, you know, application to the entirety of everything, you know, that the whole government is dishonest And I always get very worried when I hear that. Because sure, it's. I can share why so much more complex.

It totally is. But look at any water source. So if I had water that was coming down from a melted glacier and someone flew a helicopter on the top of a glacier and sprayed cyanide all over that snow, would you say to the people at the bottom of the river, hey, the water's safe? Or would you let them know, hey, it's been poisoned?

Okay. There are specific functions and subject areas I guess I might use where I really am not happy with the honesty, with the intelligence. Just common sense.

Yeah.

The open engagement with people. Like, instead of making a rule, why don't we sit down and talk with them and say, we're concerned about this and we're thinking that would be, you know, how. What do you think? So I don't like edicts. And, and there's, There are everywhere, whether it's the government or a corporation or a church or a family, there's always stuff that's really wonderful there as well as the stuff that just sucks.

I hear you. And I think we actually are in agreement of the same thing. I think within the government structure, just like in relationship, people are doing the best they can with the level of fuel source and consciousness that they have. In other words, in other words, if upstream, if upstream, it's tainted and the very source of all the power, which is finance, because finance is energy, is actually fueling the entire system, then wouldn't you say that downstream, everyone is affected by that, no matter where they are.

When I look at our situation, if somebody said, what would be the number one change that you'd recommend to improve things? I'd say get rid of public campaign financing. I'm not public, but private.

Yes. You know, yes.

We need to get the people, everybody out of that and make it simpler. And it's still not going to make it pure because you've got a lot of immaturity. People still growing and evolving. You didn't know and practice the good things you do today 10 years ago or 15 or 20 years ago. Well, you know.

Yeah.

Again, it's sort of assuming, staying in that place of the, of the heart of the giraffe, just recognizing those people are exactly like me. They may be misinformed. They may be not really using, you know, their brain in a sufficiently logical way. They may be scared and hiding, but they're trying to survive.

Yeah.

And we are just a really immature populace.

Oh, I agree. You know what? I've done as a. On different podcasts, as a metaphor, we're like a 13 year old at the wheel of a Ferrari. What would you do if you gave your son or daughter a Ferrari? They would crash.

But no, I think the average, I think the average developmental age is around 12.

And that makes sense.

There's a lot that you know are back down to three or four and there's others up. But in general. And there's a long way for us to go. But the, the bottom line is making. Try to figure out what the most constructive, productive steps would be and try to make it. And that's what we're doing here.

You've talked about in your work. When I try to coerce someone, when I try to force someone to do what I want to do, and there's many examples of that, it can be sometimes very subtle. Like the coercion that people do one another versus can I just allow. Can I be in that curiosity that you walked me through earlier in mastery? Can I be in loving curiosity? How do we make sense of the two? Like what's a good starting place to make sense of not choosing a side to where you have to believe in my side, but still choosing a side to where you have the choice to choose your own?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you. You, you brought up the word that I think is probably one of the key components of being successful in communication and that is curiosity. I'm curious more than judgmental. I am assuming and I, because I believe it's true, there's a goodness going on over there trying to achieve something that I also can identify with and man the tactics I don't like. I might try to, you know, prevent whatever, but I assume there's goodness there and I'm curious to find out why does this make sense? How does it make sense and what do you like about it? So that's what I wanted to know. Curiosity rather than I'm gonna dialogue to try to. Well, tell me why you think that. So I'm looking for ammunition that I could debate. Yeah, no, it's about being curious and granting from the get go that person over there, regardless of how they're behaving, they're trying to do something that, you know, that would enhance their life. They believe in some way or they're trying to protect it from being taken away. They're good. Human beings are good. We can be trained to ignore that or suppress it, but you don't get to be as successful as we are if you are. If you don't have a great ability to help each other to be like. There is a good Samaritan instinct. You see it all the time. You see it enough. You see it in animals as well.

Wired friends, somebody.

Yeah, that's right. So there's a Good Samaritan instinct. There's an instinct, I think that there are actually, there are certain mortal instincts. They're just, they're hardwired in us now, our culture. And what happens in our life is like a software piece that can, you know, work on changing. How important is that? What does it look like if software changes the hardware? Yeah, yeah. Well, it works when there's a need for justice. But I might have it defined differently what justice looks like. So that's the software part, but it's still the need, a need for reciprocity, that there's a give and a date. These are things that we, I believe it's built into our nervous system that these things automatically matter. And there's a whole part of our brain that was evolved to enable us to have empathy. And so that's a natural ability that we have. And we may forget to use it or whatever, but it's there. We're all trying to enhance our well being as best as possible. That's the bottom line. Nervous system. Their whole job is to provide the information and the guidance and the propellant for the being to create as constructive a state of well being as is possible. And that's what our emotions are. Emotions tell us a whole bunch about what's going, how we're doing socially, how we're doing emotionally, how we're doing physically. That's emotion's job is to inform. So they're kind of like status reports, but also to give us information about specifically what do I need to do? Am I feeling hungry? Am I feeling lonely? Okay, so that gives me kind of a guidance system of oh, you know, this is an unhappy feeling. It's telling me I need more of that.

This is the energy in motion, this.

Is the emotion, right? And then the emotion also provides the propellant for you to go about doing something that might end up improving your well being, taking care of that thing.

See, this is why earlier I was asking you, do you feel like NVC and this framework, very elegant, very powerful. Do you honestly feel like it's enough? And I'm going to circle back to this question again because I'm feeling it. I know people are feeling, this is NVC enough. What are the other things that we can stack in alignment with NVC so that we can regulate ourselves properly so we can be present for one another and honestly so we can stoke that loving curiosity.

Well now that's a gigantic question. You've got maintaining good basic health and well being.

This is how my mind works.

I like the big questions, that's fine. But I'm just saying it's going to have, you know, multiple components.

Yes.

As an answer and maybe you can.

Just give us a few. Maybe we don't have time to go into 50.

Yeah, yeah. No, it's, it's, it's, you know, you have to, in order to be able to sort of give a chance for you to act in a way that improves the quality of somebody's life. Well, it's good if you are in the best quality state of life that you can be physically.

Yeah.

You know, there are a lot of people who are out there serving the poor who have, you know, they've got pain every day or whatever, but they're. Their internal need to. The Good Samaritan instinct is so powerful in that person that they can deal with not feeling comfortable. But for a lot of people, if they're tired, they're short on food or whatever, they're just more cranky. So if I want, it's not just a matter of me being grounded in this basic understanding of how people work and what, you know, curious curiosity about these sort of well being states. If I've also got to take decent care of myself, I also have to. There's an old Buddhist thing where they talk about doing something at the right time with the right place, in the right place with the right person and in the right way. So what I'm wanting to do might be the right thing to do, but now is not the time.

Yeah.

Or you're not the person for me to do it with. Or I don't know how to do it very well yet, so I probably shouldn't do it. So those factors really factor in and I, my wife is far better than I am at discerning what's the right thing to do at the right time. You know, I'm like, I just sort of start going and she's going. Didn't you realize that was the wrong time?

Has she been one of your greatest teachers?

Oh yeah.

And how so?

Oh, just because I think that in general, again, as a product of evolution, the female brain has a better ability to kind of understand the subtleties of social consequences and dynamics and all that kind of stuff.

So like from a multitasking perspective or different.

Just because when you're when you are raising a human child and you've got to have them there for whatever, 15 years or whatever, you're going to have to have help from friends and grandparents and they're going to be other kids around. That's a lot of social, you know, stuff going on.

Yeah.

And so there's a hoeing. I think again, this is over millennia. It's not just, you know, like wow, you know, that one generation, they really got it and now it got passed on genetically. Nah. But I think that's part of what. And if you think about males, you know, my first impulse is get in there and fix it.

Me too. Just boom, where's the problem? I got the solution.

Yeah.

That's like the go to for me.

Yeah.

Well, for most men.

My wife was really cute the other day. She ran across a quote from somebody and they said one of the things that's really helped eliminate about nine out of 10 arguments in our home is learning to say you. When somebody's telling you about something. Are you looking for comfort or solutions? Because for my wife it's probably 80%. I just want to be able to talk about this, air it out, whatever, you know.

Yeah.

Work my way through it. I don't want a solution. But I'm a male. We make things, we fix things, we do things that, and of course that's what we had to do, you know, back when we had to, you know, fight for those, the resources for survival.

Oh my God. So good.

Tracks me up.

The analogy I've heard is sometimes it's good to just get a trash can, take the lid off, have her throw up in it, just get it out and just pay. Say, is there any more? Is there any more? Like and, but not, not, not in a disingenuous way, in a really genuine way. Like, hey, let me hold this trash can for you. I want you to vomit everything you got.

Yeah.

And then I'm going to ask you from, from my heart, I'm going to say, is there anything more?

Right.

That that can be the ultimate, ultimate strength for me.

It can't. My only problem is that if she's dumping into a trash can, the implication is that she's got trash. And for me, no, what she's working with isn't trash. She just got a lot of built up something and she needs space. Yeah, I need space to explore it, get it out, diffuse the energy, whatever. And just that alone, if it's a pain thing, just that alone, it's the equivalent of what you're talking about having them throw up in your trash.

And as long as we're not holding the trash can in us, I mean, because this is.

No, no. Ye. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's what I'm leading to the next question here. Because this is a perfect segue. Like, you've given us some very unique skills. And if maybe this is somebody's second time around watching this or listening to this, this for me is like the part of the interview that really tugs on my heart. It's something that I am learning myself.

Okay.

And that's why this show is. Is done. The, the best that it's done is because I'm just honest about my stuff. So one thing that I'm working on is a concept of loving detachment. And there was an article that you published that just rocked my world. And I'm going to read a quote from that. Yeah, you said I developed my first understandings of loving detachment at the same time I was developing my first understandings and skills in nonviolent communication. You talked about the addiction brain in this article. You talked about the atypical brain. This concept of loving detachment, it is not spiritually bypassing. It is not ignoring problems. It's not about sweeping stuff under the rug. But it is so counterintuitive to people that were raised in an environment like myself, which was absent father, bipolar mother. Right. So I learned at a very young.

Age as a survival pick up responsibilities.

I'm going to handle it. Oh, mom's sick, let me handle it. Dad's gone, let me be the man, right? Whatever it is, I would just handle it. And so that created a hyper vigilance within me that I recognize now as a father myself.

Reaction pattern and a reaction pattern. I got this habit kids will do, show me something not going well, I'll do something. Right?

And I. And even your physicality where I. I lean into things. So what I'm learning to do and today, like specifically is I'm learning to lean back and I'm learning to have what this is. This, this loving, healthy detachment. Let's start there because it's a really big topic to unwind. But how would you describe that? And then, of course, I would love to go into your own personal experience with that, with the addiction, with your. With your child.

Loving detachment. There's a number of parts to it. One is recognizing that there are times when somebody needs the difficult experience as something to wrestle with and find a solution to. They need to develop the skill. They need to find out, learn something about themselves. If you're like, with the addictive situation, I lose my job. Well, then I that get to the opportunity there is for me to learn that what I'm doing, drinking as much as I do, is making my life unmanageable for me. I'm not able to work. And so that's an opportunity. But if I'm in there calling the office and, you know, giving excuses or with the kid writing notes to the school to excuse absences or whatever, then what I'm doing is, I guess it's based on a silent assumption, which is they probably won't be able to take care of this themselves. And that's something I just am kind of, you know, like, oh, wait a minute, I think you found a nail to hit on the head there. There is an assumption that they couldn't figure this out for themselves or that it's too dangerous in the case of a parent, it's too dangerous to allow them to do that. So that's where in that article I say a Parents dynamics. The struggle of the issue is far more complicated than if this were an adult, you know, a sibling or spouse or friend or whatever, because you're not responsible for parenting and keeping them safe. But when you're a parent, it's like, where does being a response, having responsible responses and doing, you know, what I can in the way of constructive interventions, where does that stop and allowing them to encounter the natural consequences start?

How do you deem when. When it is the right to such a nuanced question like how do you. How do you deem that?

I came to a very simple solution eventually and was I asked myself, which action, which turn if I take or action I take, which one do I think I can live with the best within myself in the long run? Am I. Do I think that by allowing my child to do whatever they're doing and not intervening, and if it turns out badly, do I think that's something that I can live with reasonably well in the long run? And if it's not, then I don't lovingly detach. I look for different, you know, option. And so do you apply the same.

Model to a partner?

Oh, yeah, sure, sure.

But in a different way. Right.

It's just, it's tricky because the issues that you consider, the sort of thought patterns you follow with a child, a lot of them are really different from how it is with the partner because the partner, I assume, is probably going to be able to take care of themselves and I don't have a sense of responsibility to protect you. Necessarily. I mean, I. I often talk about mothers and their instinct to protect their children. I mean, that is one of the most powerful forces on the planet, I think, is that. And I call it the mother bear.

Instrument, Mama bear energy. I mean, it's like that's why you never get between a mama and her cubs.

You know, maybe daddy bear energy is here and then mama bear is like. I mean, yeah, it's amazing. So. So, you know, a parent, child and a partner. Partner thing. It's. They're similar in some reasons, but in other ways very different.

See, but you have firsthand experience of this because when you went to your counselor, this is a long time ago, I assume many years ago, you said loving detachment. The counselor made it sound like a gift. How could it actually be a gift? Loving detachment? Because in a way, when you detach from something, there's going to be a grieving process, there's going to be a uncomfortability, a painful process in the detachment. The uncomfortable.

Yeah. And pain can end up being. And very, very often is place a positive role in the evolutionary process that. What the counselor said was loving detachment is where we allow the other person the opportunity to encounter the natural consequences of their choices. So fundamental to that is I grant them the dignity of not trying to. Leaving them to the, you know, having some faith in them, at least some measure. And the. The dignity of being autonomous and capable. And so that's where I got love. Oh. Because I always thought life and detachment sounded like abandonment.

Right, Exactly. Or like a bypassing.

Yeah, ignoring. But sometimes it's. It's a. It's actually that's what makes it loving, is that I am doing it because I feel like if I intervene and try to prevent this, that and the other. That's really not going to work well in the long run because I'll have to just keep doing it. And maybe I just need to allow this. You know, natural consequences are what trigger a whole lot of our growth. So, you know, I don't always. It's not always a good idea to get in the middle and try to mute that. I'll give you an example with my daughter. So we had a lot of consequences as we led up to where she. We finally ended. You know, she got kicked out of all five schools in the area and special programs for kids like that. She ran away from home at one point. And so my loving detachment involved. I think I'm going to allow her the opportunity to experience the natural consequences of that for several days. So I was able to Keep track of where she was and that kind of stuff behind the scenes. When I got to day five, then I went, you know, if things go south from here because I keep detaching, that's not something I'm going to live with in the long run.

You went back to that choice point like you described earlier. Can I live with this detachment for the rest of my life? And that's the government.

Do I think I could live with that? Very well. You know, if things went south because I stayed detached, do I think I could live with that? The answer was no. And that's just me. You know, somebody else might say, oh, I'm good for another two days, or I would have stopped after one day. Whatever the bottom line is, it's beautiful. What it's a bottom line is what do I think I can live with? Because we have to live with the consequences of our choices. And if my child, you know, ended up having something really terrible happen, I just, so I said, you know, now's the time. So we mustered the, the her mother and the grandparents and we found out where she was and, and basically communicated to her that she had to get into the car. We were going to just let her go. And so she went back there. So that was a bad consequence for her. You know, she got had to be in a locked ward for five days while we got her to a point where she was willing to go there. Okay, so that was bad. Okay, so she's at the program in Minnesota. 28 day program, day 25. They kick her out because she's just not been willing to go to the program. Well, prior to that, they had been working with me for a couple of weeks to get the next, you know, thing set up. So the next thing ends up being a foster home husband who's a recovering alcoholic and a wife who's been an alarm forever. For some reason, they decided that their mission was to take in these really hardcore girls that just couldn't, you know, make it in some of these big time programs and work with them. Well, normally the girls would stay three to four months. Well, Christine ended up staying 11 months. So I, again, I, I didn't intervene until the first place. No, you've got to keep her. No, no, no, no, no, I didn't. I just went, I trust these people. I mean, Hazelden is just, you know, planet wise is one of the most skillful and expert at dealing with addiction that there is. So I trusted and let that go. And then, so she came to the brink. They would, they told her two times that, you know, pack your bag tonight, because if you haven't changed your attitude in the morning, we're putting you on the airplane to go back home. That happened twice. She changed her attitude each morning. The third time it came, it was a very serious threat, and she needed to encounter that consequence because it was her turning point. You know, we talk about people reaching bottom. I would have never guessed that the threat of being kicked out of this would be the reason. And the reason for it was she said, this would have been the seventh thing I got kicked out of. I would have failed seven times. I didn't want to fail anymore. And. And that was her springboard. And she. That's the thing about bottoms. You can push up.

And this whole time you're as a father waiting in the wings.

Yeah.

Dealing, monitoring, watching, dealing with whatever anguish, whatever turmoil was inside of you.

What.

What were the ways in which you did deal with that, to allow that pain, that anguish, that sadness, support.

I. I went to Al Anon meetings and there. There was a very large meeting just for parents at that time down at the near Scripps Hospital and that I went to that every week. And I went to other ones on a regular basis because that was a place where I could unload, I could share, I could talk. It was where I heard people talk about what was working for them and, you know, or what how was this was hard for them. So I got my. I embedded myself in community of support people as well as, you know, reading and learning as much as I could and stuff. I had a counselor that I could, you know, go into. And so it was by me basically setting up residence in a support environment for myself that I was able to do that.

There's so much wisdom that I'm sure you pulled from that experience, both and.

How painful was it? Lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of. Of pain. And I pulled a lot out of that that now I can share with other people. Would I say, oh, yeah, sign me up for that again? Because, you know, I had really good outcome. I'd like to squeeze another good outcome. No, I wouldn't do that.

How long did it take for the outcome to be the outcome?

Well, she eventually was let out of the home after 11 months. Okay. So she was back in Minnesota for a year. She came out here, started in. They have a special high school for kids who need to catch up, and she wanted to graduate with her class. So in two years, she completed three years worth of work. She graduated with high end of honors that she got a merit scholarship to a college back east, Went back there, you know, succeeded there, then went to a graduate program in Washington, D.C. on political management. Worked for AARP for a while, and then the Women's Health Group that got Family Leave act passed. I mean, and she's got her own business now, and she's just thriving.

Why do you think she was successful when some aren't?

I think it was in her nature that she found her own limit about what can I live with? I can't live with failing one more time.

Did you teach her that mode? Was she involved in NVC in any way with.

With you? No. Well, no, she was involved with nvc, but this whole idea of what could I live with? That really didn't come from nvc. It came from. I kind of had an insight. It one day. It's like, could I live with that? Well, that's really a good yardstick because nobody can tell you, you know, like, oh, no, let her do that. No, don't let her do that. Go this far. That's. Nobody can do that. But your own internal guidance system can inform you about what you're imagining you can live with.

Yeah.

And I could have been wrong. I mean, who knows? But that's how she just happened to be built. And then she, in herself really wanted to graduate with her friends, even though she'd lost a year. And that was just her drive and all of that willpower and energy and enthusiasm that she took bad ride with when she got turned around. She just built her life with it.

I think that it's so powerful, and I approach the subject with respect because I don't know what it's like to be in your shoes, but I can only imagine. And totally sucks.

Yeah.

But also, you know, you said that you pulled something really powerful from it. What. What actually did you pull?

Oh, I learned so many, you know, in addition to figuring out what. Loving detachment, a workable definition for me, which was huge. I learned about letting go and letting life go on its own, you know, life on life's terms. And I'm continuing to learn about that. There's a music producer that knows Paul Czech. His name's Rick Rubin. I don't know if you. That rings a bell. But he's written a book on creativity, and he was about to send it to the publisher, but he wanted somebody who was an expert in nonviolent communication to look through it and see if any of the language that he used, the ways he formulated things, wasn't consistent with nonviolent communication. So he contacted me and I did that for him. But one of the things that he said in terms of what helps you achieve the best creativity is being open to what life sends you. Like the synchronicity of this happening, that happening, that happening. Oh, it led me to want to write a book and having read this guy that all just came together. So learning to trust in particular in the creative process because I thought, oh, I'm going to write a book. Well, the bot do. How do I do? Bottom line is I realized I didn't really need to know. I just needed to start following where my enthusiasm led. And I've just continued to do that and it's been really quite fascinating and very encouraging. Yeah. So accepting life on life's terms was a huge thing to learn about. Because when I grew up, my father's father died when my from the Spanish flu. When my dad was seven, his Germanic grandmother said, you are now the man of the family. My father stopped being a little boy and you didn't live life on life's terms. You made it happen the way it was supposed to, needed to happen. So when I grew up, I had no concept of accepting, to not know everything and plan everything and organize and be in charge. I had no concept. So it was very helpful for me to go and learn that from those 12 step programs. So that just a bunch of, a bunch of things that I learned, you know, what's my part, what's somebody else's part in that differentiation.

There was definitely something that you have inside of you that I wonder if you could even put words on it, that allowed you to move from struggle to pain without losing your enthusiasm. What was that?

I think it's just whatever my nature is.

So it's just the nature you were born with?

Yeah, yeah. I have an enthusiasm and an energy and level of curiosity and I've suffered from major depression for 30 some years. I still take medication for it. Nobody would guess that. And that's because I have what they call an atypical depression. I can experience all the positive emotions and live from them at the same time. So I've been this way since I was a little kid. My mother on her 90 something birthday, she said to somebody, you know, he's been a whiz bang ever since he was born.

I wonder what happens because I've read a lot of research around when the mother is traumatized and the child is growing in utero that actually most of the research points to a hypervigilance when the child is Born premature, when there's a emergency cesarean, when the mom is experiencing super high levels of stress. Have you found that to be the case as well with the people you work with and maybe even in your own case? Did you ever look into what was going on when you were in utero?

No, I've never asked that question back when I was practicing. It just wasn't part of the. Oh, and you might want to check out that it was what was traumatic for you once you were out.

Okay.

But we didn't know about. What did you call it? Epigenetics. That just wasn't out there. Something to think about. And when you brought up epigenetics and what happens in the womb in this article about what role do genes play? Nature, nurture and life events. Explain something about genes that I didn't know that genes are like a set of instructions for how to do a cake, but they're kind of fuzzy. And so when the person's in utero, something might happen chemically for whatever reason that makes the gene go this direction instead of that direction. But they're identical twin. That didn't happen to happen to their gene. And so they went that way and so they come out. And they are not identical creatures because of random events that have happened sometime in utero. Also told the story. This poor lady who spent $25,000 cloning her cat and cat successfully survived, but it had, like a really miserable person personality. Wasn't the cat she'd had before at all. And yet it was like, supposedly genetically identical. So anyway. Wow.

Well, this is where you can put into the play of, like, karma and dharma and destiny and these type of spiritual things. You know, we're definitely half beast, half spirit. Wayland, how would you define how that's transitioned for you? Or has it transitioned the belief in something higher than you?

I am.

Do you believe in God?

I believe I am some kind of spirit that is embedded in. That's taken residence here. Yeah. And it's been a really hard life. I. I'm very grateful with how far what I've done with it. But if somebody had sat me down beforehand and said, here's the advanced copy of your autobiography, I would have gone, could I see door number two?

Could I write a different one?

You know, anybody open to, like, modification? But a huge amount of what's really wonderful about me is because of having these things to go through. And I think that's also just a basic thing that is. Comes from our evolution. We work to. That's the instinct is to get better, feel better, be stronger. You know, just. We aren't. We aren't born with no natural drive to stay alive.

If. If success leaves clues, which it does, then what are the successful clues that you yourself leave for others? About being this embodied man, about having NVC in your life, and about having a good life in general.

Yeah, but writing a book in nonviolent communication, doing podcasts. These are seeds that just, you know, okay, so I grew these crops, and there's a lot of fertilizer involved, but, you know, I figured out some way to till them. And so that's. That feels really good to. To leave that, because I feel really sad and. And worried when I see the polarization that's going on, because I don't think people know how to proceed in a different manner. I think they've kind of gotten stuck.

Yeah.

And told themselves this is. This is. This is all this possible. Part of why I am thrilled to be able to do podcasts and share stuff about nonviolent communication is there is an alternative. We don't have to come at looking at somebody else from a judging their worthiness, their goodness, their value, their intel, intelligence, their education. We don't have to come from that moralistic appraisal perspective. Instead, we can look and go. There is a human being who is basically built with the same innate needs that I have. So they need love. And these are things, I think that, again, evolution. These are. These are the things that evolution selected because they sustain life. So a need for justice, love, reciprocity, fairness, willing to help the group, you know, in some measure, being willing to follow the codes and rules. These are all things that all of us automatically label as important. And I think it's because they're hardwired as. Those are things, you know, that are important now. They get defined and prioritized in all kinds of different ways in the cultures. Some of them just get erased. I remember I was listening to a podcast, a lady from Holland, and she said, I really have had trouble, you know, because in Holland, we don't care to make you feel better. So we don't say thank you. We don't say, I really appreciate that. But if we do say thank you, it means that we're not really happy. She said, so I come to the States and people go, well, did what I did matter to you? Did it make you feel better? Yeah. Well, why didn't you say something? Why should I? Then she said, my husband came in one day, and I said, you know, but how did you like What? Eddie goes, I think it's wonderful. Thank you so much for doing it. She goes, do you really mean that? And it's because in her culture they had defined it in a very different way, but the need was still there that we act in ways which support our enhancing and maintaining our well being. And they had come up with a different recipe over there for this kind of thing. And over here it's much more important for me to maintain a good feeling connecting with you. And frankly, I think it's, I'm like so totally biased because of understanding what I understand through non violent communication. I think it's terribly important to recognize that I want to know how I have touched you or how well it's worked. Because seeing you glow and go, guy, I really appreciate that. That strengthens me, it warms me, it.

Gives me feedback, fuel for future behavior.

Yeah, yeah. And so my saying thank you, it's like closing the circle of giving. You've done something and then I give you back. This is a gift. I give back.

One of the things that in the four components, observation, feeling, needs request. How do we know if a need is coming from a wounded place, an unintegrated place, an unhealthy place, or how do we know if a need is coming from the heart and the soul? How do we determine when a need is actually truly adult and valid?

Yeah, okay. I think all needs that you're going to experience are at their root valid. But if you have a huge amount of energy surrounding it, like this is really, really important, your reaction may be way over the top relative to what a more average reaction would be. And so that's where you go. Way too big of reaction. Probably 3, 4. Most people, I'm at an 8, 9. That tells me something in my life is feeding into this. This has become a giant painful issue because something in the past. So how big is my reaction and how important does this thing strike me? And if it feels like, wow, you know, this is really powerful, then I want. But I've learned is I want to stop and take a look and try to sort out how come. Because a lot of things in my adult life that I have thought were really important, when I took the time to kind of unpeel them, I went, oh, that's something that never happened when I was younger. That was really important in terms of my nature that that kind of thing happened.

Yeah.

I never got to talk about emotions because my father said emotions are irrelevant, they're dangerous because what you need to be doing is what's right. What's responsible, proper, and, you know, your feelings might. You know, who cares? Well, I'm a very. Feeling that. That's my. My. I'm. Whatever. I don't know how to describe it, but. So, you know, I would feel like I had to talk about my feelings all the time. At one point, once I discovered that, that was really important. And, you know, but there are times when it's way too big driving for accurate understanding. Sometimes I go way too far. And because back when I was a kid, the only way that you won an argument is that you had the best facts and the best logic.

Oh, I'm right there with you.

Yeah.

That is exactly how it was for me as well.

And I find that when I press for that, some people find that painful.

Yeah. Wow. That is so. Okay, everybody stopped the car. Pull the E brake. Because whenever I'm challenged, whenever we are challenged to be right, and we've heard this before. Do you want to be loved? Do you want to be right? What is it about the righteousness that I hold in myself and that we all hold in ourselves, where we have to be right? What is that in our psyche, in the collective psyche? And how do we understand righteousness for what it really is? Because there are some cases where righteousness is justice. Righteousness is valid.

Oh, yeah, sure. Well, so there's a couple of pieces to this. Okay. First of all, one of the tricks about when you're. You're in the realm of reactions about what's right and what's wrong, one of the tricks is when something gets defined as being the right way, there is an unidentified kind of side reaction that goes on. If what I want is right, I have the right to bully you. I have the right to push and push and push and push because it's justified. So that's where I get myself into trouble, is, you know, if I. It's like I give myself a permission slip to just kind of go for it, because it's a right, by God, that gets me into trouble. I don't have a right to, you know, go about it getting my need met in any way that I like. I grant myself the right to speak about it just because it's part of my life and I. It matters and whatever. But I tell you, I can't tell you how many times when I've gone into something. It's the thing about anger that you had in one of your notes that Marshall said, when we're angry, three things are true. Number one, there's something really important to us that we're afraid won't happen, it hasn't happened or whatever. And then we're telling ourselves a should moralistic message about it. Supposed to be that way, should be that way, it's proper, whatever. But we're making it a moralistic thing because we put that moralistic energy in there. Then we become righteous about going for whatever and we are just about to act in ways that are usually guaranteed not to get our need met. So those are the three things when you're angry that are true. There's something really important that you're wanting, telling yourself some kind of, I have a right to it. It's supposed to.

It should be this way. It ought to be this way where.

You then empower yourself. It's like, well, for me at least I give myself permission slip to really fight for it because it's right. That righteous energy, it's the product of convincing myself that this is some sort of like everybody in the world has a right to this. And so I should fight for, you know, tooth and nail and it's okay and I can be dogged with you. Then that just doesn't work very well.

Well, do you feel like we have to fight for love?

No, I think we have to negotiate for receiving the kinds of loving gestures and everything that, that really touch us. We may have to negotiate that. You know what tells me that I'm loved is when somebody just, well, you know, it doesn't work. But do we have a right to be loved? I think we have huge need. And a need is not the right is where you, you bring in an obligation, energy, and people shouldn't have choice. And that's the second thing. It's not just that I go on a righteous thing, but then part of something being right is you shouldn't have a choice. So I'm going to treat you. You don't get to not do this.

Right. This is exactly what happened with the mandates and the lockdowns and the mask wearing. Mommy and daddy say that they know what's good for you. I know you're 70 years old, but I know it's good for you. So do what I say and don't ask for questions. I mean, that's the absolute insanity that we all went through in the COVID theater. So I think right now we're really still kind of shaking from that. And I think it's a beautiful time for self reflection in relationship because however we showed up with neighbors, with people on the streets, we probably showed up that way with our Husbands and wives and boyfriends and girlfriends.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, literally.

So now, now we're at this choice point of like, all right, we've been through really a tragedy, a hardship on a grand scale and there may be more coming. So when it comes to resilience, how do we use NVC to become resilient? Like specifically the resiliency. Because if I'm brittle, I can break, but if I'm fluid and if I flow with some kind of a flexible framework, then no, I can't be defeated. My love inside my heart can't be defeated.

Well, I think that partly, first of all, we are programmed to be adapters, to be fluid. I mean that that's again part of you, your species doesn't survive this long unless that is a built in tendency that you're going to adapt. Because that's why we were able to, you know, leave Africa and set up camp and all these different places with different, you know, biomes to feed off of and you know, demands, weather wise because we were very adaptive. And so I, we're, we are, you know, built, I think, to be flexible and to adapt.

The reason I ask is because right now, if people are so steadfast that my way is the right way, I know the truth. And the reason I brought up the whole lockdown mask issue is because that's what I experience. I'm not here to say that my way is the right way.

It ain't.

I just want to have the choice to choose my way. That's it. I am pro choice for lots of things in this world because I believe to have sovereignty is to be able to choose. As long as my choice doesn't hurt my neighbor or hurt my friend, then that choice is sovereign. So this flexible framework for nvc, you know, the observation, the feeling, the need, the request, these are things that we must practice. We are being pushed to practice these things right now. Well, in our relationships and in society.

Well, we have to do better in getting along.

Well, here we are. Because here we are.

We don't succeed when we're divided. Our democracy is really struggling and you know, blah, blah, blah, because we don't know any better other than to proceed as we're doing. But I see us going through what I would call a cultural or evolutionary crisis of transition crisis where we're really encountering in a glaring way what stuff doesn't work, what's not good and we're all having then to decide are we going to make a step forward and say no, you know, lying and you know, domineering, blah, blah. All those things are not how we're going to live. And I think it's just a developmental phase, and it's a developmental step, and I think we're going to make it sa.