WETIKO: How To Protect Yourself From Mass Psychosis | Paul Levy

Jung talks about, in a time of collective madness, there is only one thing that can save us. New symbolic ideas.

Jung was completely switched on to Watiko. He didn't have the name. The phrase he used was totalitarian psychosis. The thing that the greatest tyrants in history were scared of the most was a new idea. That's what I'm pointing at with this mind virus. It's, you know, this poison that is the source of the greatest evil. And to the extent we're asleep to it, we just unwittingly become its instruments and act out destruction on each other and ourselves. But encoded in the pathology, in the mind virus, in the poison, is its own vaccine. The evil that's playing out the madness, the Watiko mind virus, that it's actually revealing something to us. And if we don't recognize what it's revealing to us, then we're just fated to continue to destroy ourselves. But if we recognize what it's showing us about ourselves, then all of a sudden we can evolve in a positive, direct.

Paul, welcome to the show. What a pleasure to have you on wellness and wisdom.

Yeah, I'm just so happy to be here with you. Thank you.

We got connected through another Paul, my mentor, my friend Paul Check. And today we're talking about this book that has radically shifted so many people's lives. Also, I don't know if I've ever said this on a podcast, Paul. I took this book on my vision quest and I read many chapters of this book when I was out in the middle of nature by myself. And I'll tell you the potency of really what we're talking about today, healing the mind virus that plagues our world. This concept, the Watiko. There's a lot of people that maybe haven't ever heard of it because I know I was one of those people. I had never ever heard of it before. Many people have tried their very best to integrate your book and to describe your book, but let's say you were like 30,000ft in the sky, Paul, and you just wanted to tell a 10 year old, actually a 10 year old, what this book was about, how it's of service to the world. I know that's a challenge. I'm putting you on the spot to start the podcast. But how would you describe your book to a 10 year old?

Yeah, well, I would say that the world has gone crazy and that there is this, you know, what seems to be evil playing out all over the world and, and the origin of that madness and of that evil is to be found within our psyche and similar to how in the last couple of years there's been this, you know, Covid, this, this, this virus that has had an enormous impact on every aspect of our world. This thing that who sources in the psyche is like a virus, but it's a mind virus. And it's at, it's really at the bottom of all the insanity and all the evil that we out. You know, and if we are continually trying to find the source of the problem and the solution outside of ourselves, that itself is the mind virus. Because it's distracting us, thinking the problem is outside of ourselves. And it's not just me. I'm just a translator. I'm not the only one saying this. I'm just translating it into a modern, you know, sort of idiom that, you know, every spiritual tradition throughout the history of our species is pointing at what the Native Americans call the Watiko mind virus. And so that might be. I'm hoping what I'm saying would get across in that 10 year old.

Yeah, well, the 10 year old in me understood it. And you know, when I was flipping through the book, especially out there in nature, one of the things that hit me the hardest was this section where you talked about Jung. Jung was the opinion that our special need today was to free ourselves from outworn ideas that no longer serve us. That was really interesting to me because I think about the, the word evolution to evolve. There's love. There's the word love in evolution. And I find it fascinating.

Cool.

Yeah, I find it fascinating that so many people there is this mindset, maybe you could call it the old school shadow of the patriarchy. There is this constant year over year growth that nature doesn't honor. There's no such thing as year over year growth in nature. Everything has a death, a life and a rebirth. But so I wonder how you describe this as a jumping off point for this concept of the mind virus. When we have a lens and we can look back on the timeline and the evolution of humanity. There's many people that have tried to make our humanity better and improve the aspects of who we are as human beings. But is evolution always something that is good? In other words, is evolution always this expansion and contraction that is serving us? Or are there some things that we evolve into that actually need to be let go of?

Wow. Yeah, that's a great question because. Okay, I guess what it brings up for me is, and I'll just come at your question from an interesting point of view, it's beyond debate that we as A species, we're committing collective suicide. We're destroying ourselves, and that's what we're evolving into. But the question is, how come we're doing that? How come we're destroying the biosphere, the life support system of our planet? We're destroying each other and we're destroying ourselves. How come we're doing that? And I would point out that encoded in our doing that, that that's the way that we're teaching ourselves how to not do that, how to not destroy ourselves, which we clearly don't know, or we wouldn't be destroying ourselves. So the point is that encoded in the pathology, in the problem, is the medicine, you see, and that's what I'm pointing this mind virus with, the Whatiko mind virus is that it's, you know, this poison that is the source of the greatest evil. And to the extent we're asleep to it, we just unwittingly become its instruments and act out its destruction on each other and ourselves. But encoded in the pathology, in the mind virus, in the poison, is its own vaccine, is its medicine. And, you know, in the same way that encoded in our acting out our insanity and killing ourselves, that that's the way we're actually awakening us, you know, to who we actually are. And that's, you know, to evolve in a positive direction. That's. To actually consciously step in to our evolutionary process. And that's what this is all about. So in other words, what I'm saying is that the evil that's playing out, the madness, the Watiko mind virus, that it's revealing something to us, and if we don't recognize what it's revealing to us, then we're just fated to continue to destroy ourselves. But if we recognize what it's showing us about ourselves, then all of a sudden we can evolve in a positive direction.

I remember I was doing a ton of digging after I had read the book, and there are many people that have. Have you noticed this? They have latched onto your body of work and they've made their own, I guess you could say, extraneous or tertiary meanings of your work. They've been a lot of people that we've been linking in the show notes here. They've been creating different thought forms about the Wetiko. But I think you, in my research, were the very first on scene. This was the teachings that you learned from your research of the Kabbalah, the Hawaiian Kahuna, shamanism, mystical Christianity, and the work of Carl Jung. What an amalgam, Paul. What an amalgam. Of knowledge and intelligence that you had to put together for a book of this magnitude. I mean, you can't write a book that's over 300 pages of knowledge about this mind virus without going very, very deep yourself. Can you talk about the origin of how you started to bring these, these intelligences and this mysticism together?

Yeah, totally. Well, my origin story of how I came to my work and how I came to discover, you know, who I am in a way, you know, which is really who we all are, is just incredible suffering. I grew up and I seemingly had a very happy, healthy childhood. And then, and I'm not going to go into the story, I wrote a book about it, a 600 page book, but in essence, all of a sudden there was this incredible, overwhelming trauma. And it just had to do with my father. And it's nothing personal with him, but he just, like a lot of parents, because he wasn't dealing with his own stuff, he just unconsciously acted out his unresolved abuse on. And it created the most unbelievable suffering to the point where I went from being a really accomplished and happy and healthy kid to all of a sudden when I was in my early 20s and I was beginning to individuate and separate from my family, I couldn't live my life. The suffering just stopped me in my tracks. And I couldn't figure out, up until that point, I was always really smart and good at school, but all of a sudden I couldn't figure out what to do.

I.

With my intellect, the only thing I could figure out was to assume the position of being the witness and of really going inside of my mind and really just observing what was happening. And I did that hours and hours and hours a day, every day for a few years. And then I had, I got hit by a bolt of lightning one day in meditation, just in my brain, not an external boat bolt. And I went into such an extreme state in which I began to realize we're having a collective dream that where I, it just, I, you know, it was just overwhelming and I was so ecstatic because I was realizing this is the good news and that I, you know, I got in trouble where right away, you know, the police came and they, they locked me up, you know, in a mental hospital and, and I was diagnosed and I knew I was having an awakening. It couldn't have been more obvious to me. So, not for a second that I buy into, you know, their, their point of view. And over that next one and a half years, about maybe four other times, I got thrown in Mental hospitals. Because I was a free agent and I was so young, and I was in the process of trying to integrate what I was realizing. It was so, you know, just overwhelming. But because I hadn't integrated it fully, I was freaking people out. They thought I was manic or psychotic or this or that. And, you know, I had no idea that, oh, this is typical when somebody gets called to be some sort of healer or shaman or something, you know, And I'm not saying I'm any sort of shaman. I'm just saying. No, that the shamanic archetype, which is the major archetype that's activated in the collective unconscious of our species, it was activated in me and as a way of dealing with the incredible darkness. Because once I got thrown in those mental hospitals, I began to. I was getting pathologized, and it was just an unbelievable nightmare. The unconsciousness and the abuse that the psychiatric system was enacting just blew my mind. And then I began to, at a certain point, realize, wait. That same evil energy that had come through the instrument of my father as a person was now getting expressed through this system, through the psychiatric system, as if they were iterations of a fractal.

Let's pause there.

Yeah, okay, let's.

Let's pause there. That is absolutely incredible, the way you were able to connect the dots of energy. Because really, what you're talking about is energy. Correct. So this is an energy. And you talk about it in your book. A Native American term for an evil, cannibalistic spirit that can take over people's minds, leading to selfishness, insatiable greed, and consumption as an end itself, destructively turning our intrinsic creative genius against our own humanity. Which I think is a fascinating way to describe this. It's almost an energy that wants to learn, but as it learns, it consumes and it fills the person almost as if they were a hungry ghost with no bottom until we become aware. And you became aware when you were in those mental homes, you connected the dots at that time. Yes. The energy that came from your father, the energy that was coming from the pharmaceutical industry, the energy that's coming, that's trying to consume rather than create. Can you expand on that?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. No, totally. And not only my father and the psychiat, the system of psychiatry, but also then I began to recognize the same dark energy was informing the greater body politic of our species. You know, and one very simple way of understanding this is this energy is this archetypal energy. It's a transpersonal energy. And what that means, very simply, is that it's beyond the merely personal.

Okay?

It's a higher dimensional energy. It's a more powerful energy that can literally take over a person. And they, once they become so possessed, they have no idea because it happens through the part, through the unconscious, through the part of. We all have this blind spot, so they're oblivious to that. They now have become unwittingly taken over and have become an instrument for this darker force. And they're acting it out in the world. So they become the vectors through which this evil force acts, actually incarnates into our world. And then, and particularly when you bring, you know, not just one person, but a group of people together, particularly in positions of power, they unwittingly become the conduits for the incarnation of this darker force. Now what I'm pointing at is that that can happen for any of us, you know, in subtle ways. Oh, I got taken over by my unconscious. I acted out my unconscious. Well, that's an example. Who hasn't done that? But what, what I'm at is that encoded in that dynamic, whose origin is within the psyche, is its own medicine. It's actually revealing something to us. Encoded in that energy is the creative spirit. But if we don't access it consciously and express it and channel it constructively, creatively, it literally becomes destructive. And that then we become the secret agent of the Whatiko mind virus. And our secret is even secret to ourselves.

Yes. There's so much there. And I think about the 35 plus years that you've been involved, the Tibetan Buddhist practitioning that you've done. What is something that you continue to be nourished about and fascinated by this practice of Tibetan Buddhism? It's been almost four decades now that you've been in this world. What continues to fascinate you? What continues to nourish you in your own awareness, in your own spiritual growth, so that you yourself can lovingly say no to the Waitiko.

Yeah, well, I mean, there are so many ways I can answer that. On the one hand, so I've been doing practice for close to 40 years. And part of it, part of the answer would be the more and more I become like sort of familiar would be a good word. Think about the familiar as our guiding spirit. But I become familiar, acquainted with my true nature. Now, my true nature, which is. Or, you know, all of us have the same true nature when we're fighting evil, if we're fighting against it, then we've already lost. We're playing its game. But the way to vanquish evil is to get in touch with the part of ourselves that's invulnerable to evil, that can't be touched by evil. That's the true nature. So on the one hand, part of my practice, my Tibetan Buddhist practice, is to continually be connecting and becoming more intimate. Who with? My nature. Now, what is my nature? It's very cliched. Oh, our true nature. Well, our true nature by its very nature is creative. We are creative beings. So the more I know my nature, the more I embody and express myself creatively. And the more I express myself creatively, the more I know my nature. It's a positive feedback loop that creates light upon light. And that's the medicine for Watiko, to know our nature, to embody and express ourselves creatively. That's kryptonite to Wateco, then Wateco has no power over us at all. But if we're not in touch with our creative nature, the Watiko, that mind virus, is more than happy. It has no creativity on its own, but it'll plug into our innate creativity, turning it against us in a way that feeds its nefarious agenda and kills us. That's what I'm pointing at. I'm trying to shed light on this process.

So much there that goes back to your time in possibly the mental homes or even before that, when you're receiving the aspects, the deleterious aspects of this Watiko from your father. And I think about in my own life too, something that really drew me to this work is I have been present to that same energy in my father as well. And I think that there is a collective father wound. Paul, when we look at all the media, all the Google searches, all the data, I guess you could say, around how society is depicting men and how society is portraying fathers. Do you believe that Watiko has infected Hollywood, has infected journalism, has infected, quote, the voice of the Internet? So that is actually feeding this consumption of the creative energy of fatherhood itself.

Yeah. Well, I would say that the Watiko virus has infected. It pervades the field, it pervades the non local field, whether that's Hollywood or their media or our minds.

Yes.

There's no one who's immune to what eco. If somebody says, oh, I'm immune to Watiko, I will run the other way because that person scares me. We all have the potentiality to fall into our unconscious. And as far as the father thing, you know, one way of describing the, the psychic epidemic that we're in, because what Eco is a collective psychosis is that. Think about the archetype of the negative father that. Yeah, my father embodied that. It sounds like maybe your father did too, in your personal life.

And so did his father. And I see that without judgment, by the way.

Yeah, right. It's. It's an ancestral lineage, right?

Yes.

Getting transmitted until somebody has the awareness or the love or the courage to stop, to not be the link in the right. And the point is that that negative father is an archetype. Yeah, your father, my father, maybe they personified it, but it's an archetype that exists in the collective unconscious. And that archetype has to do with power over others, instead of power with. It has to do with domination. And it objectifies other people or it objectifies Mother Nature. And so that archetype of the wicked father, of the negative patriarchy. One could make a case that that's one of the elements that's informing. And that's informing the collective psychosis known as Watiko.

Yes. It takes me back, and I'm sure you've studied his work, Alan Watts, he has a very famous quote where he says, nature abhors a vacuum. And I love that so much because like you're saying, wrapped and encapsulated inside of the pain is the love and the lesson that's wanting to come through, which is such a paradox. It is such a paradox here on planet Earth for us. Sometimes when we try to make too much meaning, when we're forcing the meaning, Paul, of an event that's neutral, when we're forcing the meaning of something, we can actually fall into spiritual bypassing and then paradoxically be eaten up by the Watiko itself. I want to talk about how Watiko infects. And you mentioned this in the book. We've linked the book in the show notes. You guys, I don't recommend too many books. Too often you have got to read this book. The data and the research and how much you've done with this, Paul, it's incredible. How many years did it take you to actually start, to finish, write this book?

Well, it's funny, when I wrote that book, it was actually, it was twice as thick. And my publisher, so it was like a 600, 700 page book. And keep in mind, I had already written like a 400 page book on Wateco, that's the second volume. And my publisher said, look, this book is so profound and so big, maybe why don't we cut it into two books? So that's why I have another, the third of the trilogy coming out, but it literally maybe only took me a couple years because it's, you know, this Watiko thing, it's all that I think about, and it unlocks my creative spirit. And it's just, you know, what I write about and what I'm creatively expressing, and the more I shed light on it and help other people to see it. Because the thing about Waiko, it operates through the blind spots. It's a form of being blind, and it's a form of being blind that actually thinks it's seen. And not only that, it thinks it's more sighted than people who actually see. So the point is, it only has power over us to the extent we don't see it. That's why I'm just trying to open people's eyes and say, look, here's this mind virus and here's how you can actually track it. And when you see it, guess what? When you see it, you take away its power over you and you empower yourself. But if you don't see it, then it can kill you. That's our situation, and that's getting dreamed up writ large on the global stage.

If you're watching with us on YouTube, Paul, I love this Buddha behind you. And you actually mentioned it to me before we started recording, so y' all on YouTube, you can see this. It's beautiful. I don't know if that's a tapestry from India or what, but there's a meaning. It keeps calling me as you're speaking. What is the symbology of the tapestry behind you? What is.

So. So that. That's. That's not a commercial, you know, art. That. That's the real thing. That's this Tonka that. One of the greatest Tonka painters in Tibet, he was actually in Kathmandu when he painted it. And it's the Healing Buddha. It's. It's the Medicine Buddha who embodies all of the healing. Not just physical, but mental, spiritual, emotional, and not just the healing, but even the causes of the suffering. It eradicates and heals that. And so it's one of my inspirations. It's one of the practices I do. And they say in the teachings that to even see the Medicine Buddha itself is a profound blessing. And. And, yeah, so anyway, so that's. That's what that has to do with. And the essence of the Medicine Buddha is compassion. And compassion is the Watiko dissolver par excellence.

Yes, it is. And I honestly just. In even talking with you about it and in seeing the Buddha behind you, I'M getting a full body loving energy. Like a full body. Not a full body chill.

But.

But just like, almost like a cellular rapture in a way. Like a small cellular rapture so people can see the Buddha if they're on YouTube. That was something you cannot order online. Like, you actually have to go and do the work and find the person. And are you gifted that in a specific way, or is it something that. Can anyone go purchase that?

Yeah, no, there are. There are tonkas online you can buy. But I'm just saying, like, one. Like, this is not a commercial Tonka. This artist painted tonkas for the greatest llamas of Tibet. And I was fortunate to meet him. And. And so I got a few tonkas from him.

You know, I want to talk about the way that Watiko comes in. You've already mentioned, and we've already talked about that it thrives on consuming. And actually, the creative energy is how we can, without fighting it, defeat it, which is another paradox. We're probably going to talk about a lot of paradoxes today on the podcast. Paul. So. So you talk about this in the book. It impersonates us and offers a fake identity. And if we choose to accept it, then it manipulates and controls us by. We give ourselves away, we identify with who we are not, and we disconnect from our intrinsic creative power. Can you unwind those a little bit? Because audio people may not know exactly what that means.

Right. So if people think this Watiko idea is kind of crazy or New Age or whatever, it's in every spiritual tradition that has existed, and it's in the Bible, and it's in. In the apocryphal texts, which were the texts that, you know, way back when were the most sacred texts that were only for the initiates. But I point out that Watiko was on the editorial board of the Bible, so it edited out the reference in the apocryphal text to Watiko because it didn't want to be seen. In the apocryphal text, it talks about a counterfeiting spirit. The counterfeiting spirit is Watiko, because Watiko has no creativity at all. But it's a master impersonator, okay? It will put us on. It will fool us. It will offer us a fictitious identity, a version of ourselves. Oh, I'm limited. Oh, I'm so traumatized. Oh, I'm so wounded. And if we're not awake in that moment, we will then identify with its version of ourselves. And as soon as we do, then it has us. Then it can manipulate us and control us. But if we are awake in that moment and. And we don't, you know, sort of identify with its false version of ourselves, but instead remember our nature, you know, then it has no power over us at all. But as soon as we identify with its fake identity, oh, I'm limited, wounded, traumatized, victim of abuse. I'm unhealed. Then think about what we've done. We've actually see what he called. Can't steal our soul, but it tricks us into giving it away ourselves. So then we've identified with who we're not. You know, we've. We've given away our creative agency, and we've, you know, we've given ourselves away. And that's a recipe for madness. And that's what you go. In a nutshell. And it's not just in the apocryphal text. Every wisdom tradition, that's that book in that book that you were holding up that I. That I just wrote.

Yeah.

You know, one of the major themes of the book is pointing out Hawaiian Kahuna talks about this, Kabbalah talks about this, Buddhism talks about this. Every wisdom tradition is pointing at what, Iko. In their own language, in their own symbol system. And then there's Watiko, which is trying everything it can to make sure that people don't see it, because when you see it, it then has no power over you.

I have to interrupt you. I'm so curious. When you say there was an editing in the Bible, now there's many different versions, and there's an entire probably podcast series we could do on the different iterations of the Bible. But when I look back, whether it's King J, New King James, the Aramaic version, there's so many different versions. In your research, when you went all the way back as far as you could possibly go, what did you find as far as the editing and the censoring of love in the Bible or love in religious texts by Wateko itself?

Well, I mean, I was particularly pointing at that. The. The phrase. The counterfeiting spirit.

Yes.

And the description of it was edited out. And so I kind of make a joke going, oh, Watiko must have been on the editorial board. But I want to point out, in the Bible, they continually talk about, you know, this. This blindness of the mind.

Yeah.

And they talk about. They correlate the blindness of the mind to the coldness of the heart. And they talk about, you know, again and again, it'll say something like, oh, yeah, that people, they choose to close their eyes they choose to identify with the darkness. And there's this mind blindness. And all of that is exactly articulating and shedding on the. What, eco mind virus. You know, and the thing about the. What you call mind virus, like a virus, it's contagious when you're. If you don't have a strong connection with yourself, with your true self, and if you hang out with people who are under the spell of this mind virus, you will. It will, like, induce in you the same unconsciousness, the same blindness, and then you're all reinforcing each other's madness. That's the collective psychosis, and that's what's happening on our planet right now.

And I would say probably the most severely. If you look back at the millennia and you think about, you know, women being owned as property, and then before that, the Dark Ages and the Gilded Age and all these different ways, Paul, it almost seems like. It almost seems like we are 13 years old, 12 or 13 years old as a humanity, and we're just learning how to drive a car. We're just learning how to love each other.

Young himself, the great psych huntress, says that as a species, we're like in the adolescent phase. Exactly. You know, and. You know, and what it's like, it's like we have this enormous creative power. Because one of the books I wrote was about, you know, physics of quantum physics. And think of the quantum. Well, the quantum. The. The revelations emerging from quantum physics, from quantum physics are the medicine for what you call. And I. I'm happy to go into that. But a way to envision it is like we have this magic wand.

But.

We'Re like the sorcerer's apprentice who don't know how to use it. So we're wielding it in a way that's killing us. And what I'm trying to point out is we already have the solution. We already have the creative power. We are the solution. But we either don't know we have it or we don't know how to use it. Okay, and could I say something about how quantum physics just very simply is the medicine for Wateko? Because it's mind blowing now. Okay, I'll just take a step back. In Tibetan Buddhist tradition, there's this thing called terma. And terma is the hidden treasure. And the idea is that the tradition I practice, the whole lineage is based on continually rediscovering these terma, these hidden treasures. So if the practices get stale, all of a sudden there'll be this treasure. And the idea is the Treasure is hidden, encoded within the multidimensional fabric of the universe, including in our minds or in the earth. And all of a sudden, right at the point when the practitioners become a little bit asleep or their practice becomes stale, or they're not fully connected with their Buddha nature, one of these treasures will be discovered and by somebody who's fated to discover it. And it'll be either a blessed object or a teaching or practice or prayer to do. And it's just like in a dream when the dreamer becomes one sided, they all of a sudden, what does the unconscious do? It offers a symbol. And if they take in the symbol, they all of a sudden get reconnected with their self. Now why I'm talking about terma. I'm actually pointing out that quantum physics is a modern day analog to a terma. That before quantum physics, physicists were, they were thinking, they were trying to investigate the world as if it was objective and separate from them and they were just passive observers. And then quantum physics came into the world in, you know, 19, early 1900s and it came into the physicists minds and it proved, empirically proved again and again with no doubt that there's no such thing as an objective world. That that's just an idea in our head that the act of observing the world actually influences the world. We're observ. That's the description of a dream, you see. And so what that means is that the act of observation is creative. Okay? That's the portal into this immense, unimaginably vast creative power that each one of us have, each and every moment in creating our experience. We already have it 24, seven. We're like, you know, accessing it, but if we're unconscious of it, it's getting turned against us in a way that's killing us. Okay? So Watiko is all. It has its. Because if we have become entranced in thinking this world exists objectively and we're just passive witnesses or victims of it. Well that is the point of view of what eco. Then we've given away our power. And the powers of the state are more than happy to take our power and turn it against us. Okay, and one other. If I can just say one more thing to make this clear. The way to understand this is very simple. Imagine. Imagine you're in a dream, in a night dream. And imagine you're holding a point of view in the night dream. Now what is a dream? A dream is a reflection of your mind. If you're holding a viewpoint instantaneously, the dream will shapeshift and reflect back that viewpoint, giving you all the evidence of the seeming truth and the objective nature of that viewpoint. So now you have evidence confirming that you're seeing what's really there objectively. So you get more fixed in your viewpoint. The more fixed in your viewpoint viewpoint you get, the more the dream, which is just a projection of your mind will reflect back and give you all the evidence you need, confirming your viewpoint in a self reinforcing feedback loop whose origin is within your own mind. And you've hypnotized yourself, you've entranced yourself, you've put yourself under a spell. That's what I'm pointing at is when you see that process. That's when all of a sudden the energy that's bound up in the compulsion to recreate your trauma gets liberated for creative expression and for the express love and compassion. That's what my work is about, is helping people to see that.

I love when you brought up the observer. It reminds me when I, when I first started my journey, I guess you could say in spirituality 2008, 2009. So I'm a little bit, you know, earlier on the scale than yourself, which is why I love talking to minds and hearts like yours. Because you know, the longer we are in the path of spirituality, the really impossible factor that's created to where we could never ever go back to being unconscious. In other words, once you start down the path, you're 40 years years down the path. There's nothing in your being that I can feel that would ever make you go backwards in any way. It's all about expanding and going forward. And the observer effect that I, that I heard in 2008 was this movie called what the bleep? And they watched the particles go through the board and simply by observing the particles, they would shift. So this is not just woo, right? This is scientific observation for the analytical minds that are listening and watching and being. What is Paul saying? Yeah, what Paul is talking about is science, the God that is worshiped. But really science is not a God. Science is a practice of proving oneself, proving concepts to be flushed out in true or false.

Yeah, well the thing which is so you know you mentioned like that movie, like what the bleep. So that movie was filmed in my neighborhood and it was part of, it was filmed in the theater that I actually saw the movie in. So that brings me like one of the key ways of seeing what Heko is to recognize. And this is what began happening when began having my awakening after getting hit by the lightning bolt. That got me immediately hospitalized Is to recognize that this is a collectively shared dream. You know, that we're all moment by moment, dreaming up into materialization. But if we don't recognize that, we then become entranced by our creative genius and think it's separate from us and objective. And we become conditioned by it and react to it. But the idea being to see the dreamlike nature. And that means that that every person you're seeing is a dream character. It's exactly like when you have a dream at night and you wake up in the morning and you wonder, what does that dream mean? Well, all those characters in the dream are aspects of yourself. In the same way, we're all dream characters. We're embodied reflections of each other. And what that means is that there's no separate self. When you begin to see that, you see through the imagination of that we exist, you see, because what he called it makes us think that we exist in a way that we don't. That it makes us think that we exist as a reference point in space and time as a separate self. And as soon as we see ourselves in that way as existing as a separate self. We then think the world is objective, separate from us. Those two things, the experiencing the world as objective and experiencing us as a subject who separate from the world. Those reciprocally co. Arise and reinforce and condition each other. That's why when you see that there's nothing objective, that this world is dreamlike. And that we're actually influencing this world. Just like a dream by the way we actually interpret it. All of a sudden it puts into question, well, wait a second. Who am I as a subject? Because I as a subject, I have to have an object to be in relationship to in order to be a subject. If there's no object, if the world isn't objective, then what happened to me? Who am I? See, that's where quantum physics becomes a spiritual path. And actually is offering us the antidote to Watiko. Because it's helping us to connect with our nature.

Yes, the superposition of the 0 and the 1 is mind boggling. Even when people try to understand the quantum of the 1 and the 0 existing simultaneously. It can be overwhelming to the logical mind. Because I think we have this beginning, middle and end fallacy that, you know, Paul is born, Paul lives, lives, Paul dies. But in my experience, and from everything that I feel to be true. You and I are just unique points of consciousness expressing itself from an origin source. That we could never place a scale of time on itself. Even the concept of Time is this fabrication, really, this construct of potentially the dream, Paul, that we're all dreaming? And how do you know and how do you feel? And what do you say about the timeline of this dream? How long long has this dream been going on?

Well, it's so interesting because in. In my quantum physics book, I talk a lot about time and how time and space, it's just a construct. And, you know, we can easily become entranced by time going in one direction. And it's linear and all that. But quantum physics, you know, in its equations, there's only one moment in time, and it's now. It's the present moment. And that present moment is the place where we actually access our power, our power to change the dream. And so easily, it's so easy to become entranced thinking that there's a timeline. But some of the greatest quantum physicists very seriously ask the question, why can't. In the same way that, you see, they talk about that the past and the future, they meet in the present moment. That it's not just the past that's causing the present moment, but the future is, too. And that the moment of observing the past in this very moment is literally reaching back in time, so to speak, and creating the past that we're observing. And that's where, like you hear about shamans who can travel back and heal a trauma that happened backwards in time. Well, that's. That's what, you know, quantum physics discovered that the way we at the past isn't finished until we actually kind of think about it or observe it or place meaning on it, interpret it in this moment. And so the. If we have, you know, oh, we're traumatized and all that, well, there's a way, via our creative imagination, of actually healing the past and changing the past in a way that informs and changes the present moment. And the same thing with the future, that we're influenced by the future. But the thing which is so interesting to me is that outside of time, in the atemporal realm, where there is no time we can think about, we've already woken up. We've already become whole. We've already become enlightened. And that awakened part of us is actually expressing itself through the medium of what seems to be linear time, through true events in our world. And these events in our world are the actual, like, helpers. Or it's the way we actually actualize in linear time the atemporal part of us that's already awake. And to see that, actually, it makes it so because we Have a creative agency in that. It's just the whole time thing. I could spend, like, like, like years just tripping out on how interesting time is, you know, and how we've been entranced by the whole, like the. The calendar, the Gregorian calendar, which was all based on, like, collecting taxes. And it's out of sync within the natural phases of nature. And then when we're. When we're like, actually being, you know, when there's like this. This. This unnatural timing frequency, it distorts our mind, you know, so some friends of mine, some teachers who I know are like, you know, they really feel that one of the primary ele. Insanity is our relation to time.

Time is this pressure that many of us feel, and we feel it because we place so much emphasis on the time actually meaning something. We place so much emphasis on this time having this direct impact where if I'm. You know, we met for the podcast today, and I was two minutes behind because I was cleaning things up and I didn't put any meaning on it. But you could have come to the interview and you could have said you were two minutes late.

Right? Like.

Like we, We. We have this fallacy where, like, responsibility is a representation of self worth. So if I. If I'm worthy, and I know that I'm worthy in my heart, I. I do my very best to show up in a way that's punctual. Right. And that's cool. But. But these meanings that we make, Paul, and. And the connection to the quantum, which now, I mean, I am so enjoying the spiral that we're in. I place it back to something that I've mentioned on the podcast many times, and it's Isaiah 45:7. It's the king James version, and the quote is, I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things. Right? Right. There is the superposition of the 0 and the 1 of the dark and the light where literally in. And I don't know if that's the original text. Maybe you might be able to educate us on how far back you've gone. But right there in Isaiah 45:7, we are getting the message that the superposition is real, that God, or the omnipresent being that guides and loves all things, the dao, however you want to encapsulate, is everything and nothing at the same time, is dark and light, love and hate at the same time. It's all in superposition. What do you make of that?

Well, I see one of. I mean, the key way that we access our creative power is how we place, we interpret the inkblot. Think about a dream. A dream is a projection of the mind. Well, what is a projection? It's an inkblot. And so we have this meaning that we impute, that we superimpose onto the inkblot. We interpret it in a certain way. And it's not like we. Well, here's this. You know, whatever the meaning we place on the inkblot, and then two seconds later, it'll manifest that way. No, it's instantaneous. It happens outside of time. The moment we see the inkblot in a certain way, the inkblot will reflect back, giving us all the evidence that that's what we're seeing. And, you know, it's another example of just entrancing ourselves. And so our power, it lies in how we interpret. Interpret our experience. If you remember what I was saying about quantum physics, it's proving to us that we are literally creating our experience of the world and of ourselves, moment by moment. Our experience of our world and of ourselves. That's where our creative agency, that's where it lies. That can't be emphasized enough. Because, in other words, each moment you see one of one physicist I know talks about that. The greatest Discovery of the 20th century in physics was that this universe is malleable. It's mutable, that it's a plastic medium. It's not written in stone.

Just like our brains.

Right, just like our brains. Neuroplasticity. Exactly. Exactly. But the point is that we have this enormous power to influence the way this collective dream manifests based on how we interpret it in place, meaning on our experience and on who we are. And you see, the thing which is so cool is that it's one thing for one person to realize this and, you know, and then you're continually stabilizing it and deepening it. And I think of, like, the Dali, His Holiness, Dalai Lama. He's always saying, oh, yeah, I'm continually expanding my altruism and my compassion. It's not like you ever get to the end. But the more you express your compassion, the more it's not like. Like this. This scarcity model, the more compassion there is to share it, like, just feeds on itself in a positive feedback loop. The point is, when we have this realization and then we're stabilizing it and embodying it, and then we connect with other people who are also realizing it, you know, and then we discover it's not a competitive sport, who's more awake? You or me. But if I help, you know, you or somebody else to awaken, it actually helps me because we're not separate. And then you disc. However, we can actually connect with other beings who are also awakening. Now. Interesting. In Buddhism, bodhisattva, the word bodhisattva, it actually translates as a being in the process of awakening. And who among us is not a bodhisattva. The point is, when we connect with other people who are also awakening, just like Watiko becomes contagious in a negative way, hanging out with other people who are awakening, that's the sangha of the Buddha Buddhism. That's the community that becomes contagious. And we can all help each other to deepen our awakening. And that becomes like this viral energy that can literally inflame the world in a good way in a liberating, in a purifying way. And one way to understand this, that actually even brings it home. Imagine being in a night dream. And imagine that you're dreaming of. You have the recognition, oh, I'm dreaming. This is all a dream, right? And all these characters in the dream are aspects of me. Now just imagine that other of your dream characters also awaken to that, and they have lucidity. And imagine you come together and hang out and trip out on what you're realizing. Oh, my God. This dream universe that we thought was real and objective, it's a function of our dreaming. We are literally dreaming it up into materialization moment by moment. Well, then I imagine that when enough of the dream characters in that dream have that realization and they can get in phase with each other and get in sync with each other and put what I call their sacred power of dreaming, the part of them that is dreaming the dream, into manifestation. They could put the sacred power of dreaming together in a way where they can change the dream. They can dream it in a way that, that's more in alignment with who they're discovering themselves to be, that's to consciously participate in their own evolution. And that's what this is all about. That night dream I was just, I was just describing, that's the waking, that's our situation. That's what's available to us. It's freely available to us right now. And, and that's what I'm trying to help people to see.

Well, the way in which I'm experiencing all the wisdom that you're giving us right now, now is through song. I was actually feeling a song in my solar plexus, in my heart. I'll give it. I'll Give it a shot. I'm not perfect. Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily Life is but a dream. I mean, that's it. Life is a dream. So, so that song encapsulates everything you just said in the intelligent way you said it, but it puts it into something that my son, my son is 16 months months old. He would feel the energy in what I just sang, and he would know exactly what it was that he was experiencing. Something that was an input, that was a stimuli, but he wouldn't be trying to make meaning of it, he would just be enjoying it. He would be gently down the stream. So it seems like really the antithesis, the, the, the, the real solution for Watiko is to enjoy the stream. To, to go down the stream and just be like, hey, we're in a stream. Stream. Is that, do you ever, do you ever reflect on that?

Yeah, yeah, but it's not a passive experience, you know, but you're actually.

We're holding the paddle.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're doing it. You're interacting and you're participating and creating with the stream. Now, the thing I just want to point out, you see, when I told the story of that, I was like overwhelmed with this deep suffering from my, you know, the, the abuse from my father. And that, you know, then that catalyzed into a whole awakening process. And, you know, when I got thrown in hospitals and that whole thing, my subjective experience, what I was experiencing, which made no sense at that moment, stuff began happening in my life that was physically impossible. That could only happen in dreams particularly. I was beginning to meet my teachers when I, these great enlightened beings, when I was around them, it was like the 3D space time continuum. Them would just, you know, change and physically impossible stuff would begin to happen. How so?

How so what? What was happening?

Yeah, I don't really, I, I, I don't really talk about it, you know, so I don't, you know, it's not, I mean, you know, one example that I can give you, but this isn't quite a physical, impossible thing. This is like a completely ridiculously unlikely thing.

Okay.

When I had my awakening, you know, I got hit by a bolt of lightning. The next day, I'm acting so enthusiastic and excited about what I'm realizing. I get brought by ambulance, you know, to a hospital. They into my first psych ward. They bring me in to the lounge. The patients were there, they just had dinner. I see a blind woman, her eyes are blind. She's an older woman. And I didn't think about anything. I just spontaneously went right up to her and was looking in her eyes. And her eyes are opaque. You know, clearly she has no vision. And out of my mouth just spontaneously comes the words. All you have to do to see is open your eyes and look. And I keep on repeating those words, getting closer to her, you know, staring in her eyes. The whole thing took a minute. She regained her sight, and right at that moment, as if choreographed, they came and they took me and they strapped me up on a bed where I spent the night. And then just to complete the story, the next day, they unstrapped me. They put me in a room. Room. Who's the only other person in the room is that ex blind woman. She's smiling at me, not saying a word. All of a sudden, my heart chakra just blossoms, and I understand, oh, she was hysterically blind. You know, she inwardly was not letting herself look. And that was manifesting as her, you know, physical blindness. And somehow she was ready to heal her blindness. And I was like the Uber driver who was, like, in the area. And I got called to, like, you know, and I just played my role and said my line. It was like I was given a script. It fell in my head, and that helped her to heal. And then she said to me, the only word she ever said to me, she goes, aren't you going to answer the phone call from? And she mentions my father's name. And then within seconds, the nurse comes in the room and says, paul, your father's on the phone. Because my parents had just gotten word that I had had a supposed psychotic break. And so now I want to point out that wasn't a physically impossible event. That was a synchronistic event that was highly improbable that, you know, I just happened to, like, be, you know, to say whatever I said. And it helped her to, like, heal something like that. But that's the one experience that I've been given permission, you know, by. By spirit, by my guidance, to openly talk about. But then there was, like, all this other stuff that. I mean, that was like a minor. A minor experience compared to what happened next over the next year and a half. And all the while I'm getting thrown in mental and pathologize and diagnose. But an experience like that saved my life. Because when you have an experience like the one I just told you with the blind woman, you, yeah, totally know you're not mentally ill. You totally know, oh, I'm having a spiritual awakening. And these psychiatrists who are telling me I have like, you know, a chemical imbalance, they have no idea. So that's what I mean. It saved my life.

Wow. The. This is not the first time time and it won't be the last that I've heard that. We had a guest on the show a couple times, Mark Wolin, he wrote a book called It Didn't Start with you which is Family Constellations, Past Life Regression. And he had something where he actually started to have blindness in his eye. And he looked at his relationship specifically with his mother, his inability to connect with her. And as he dove into the inner work and as he understood that he himself was creating the partial blindness, the blindness cleared. People might, people might look that and they might be like, that's crazy. I don't believe that. Well, I do, because psycho, psychosomatic exists.

Yeah. And the thing about that in that, that you know, being blind in like when you read the Bible, they'll talk about a mind blindness and they'll, they'll talk about that it's self induced that we so. And Watiko is a self induced form of blindness. You see, when we, when we see Watiko and we turn away and we turn a blind eye, we're feeding Watiko that turning away is Watiko. So it's not like there's any external blindness. You know, we ourselves are creating our own blindness. And I want to just point out that experience I just told with the blind woman. I've been contemplating that for, for over 40 years now. And it, it's clear to me that something was being shown to me because that actually totally articulates on, you know, with reference to the situation of humanity that we ourselves have fallen blind and there's nothing in our way for us to heal our blindness and we can actually just open our eyes and look. And that's in essence what my work is about, is trying to have people open their eyes and see Watiko. How it operates not only through the non local field, but in our minds via our reaction. And when you see it, like I've been saying, you take away its power. Because here's the thing, when you see how Watiko operates in the physical world, you know, with like the whole vaccine thing or the Ukraine thing or whatever, or gender dysphoria.

Gender dysphoria is a big wetico.

Yeah, yeah. You know, the point is, is that what you're seeing out there is an external reflection of a process going on inside of us. And when you recognize the correlation between the outer world and your inner state, that's actually to recognize the dream. Because what is a dream? You. When you're in a dream, the outer dreamscape is reflecting the inner state of your psyche.

You know, you talked about earlier, there's a special strong spot inside of all of us that is indomitable that Watiko cannot access. What is that spot?

Yeah, that's the Buddha nature, the Christ nature, the true nature. There's a million names for it. When you have something that's like that precious, typically there's millions of names because one name doesn't do it by itself. And one way of understanding that is now Christ in the apocryphal text. And once again, this got edited out of the Bible by Watiko. In the apocryphal text, what does Christ say? He says, I am a mirror to those that perceive me. Okay, now just stay with that for a moment. Because that mirror, mirror in Buddhism, that's the symbol for the true nature. Because the mirror is always pure. You can. Whatever object you put in front of it, whether it's the darkest, vilest object in mirror, just will reflect it back. And it's never tainted or stained. The mirror is always available. It's always pure. And yet we become entranced by the reflections, you know, in the mirror. And we react to the reflections, forgetting about the nature of the mirror. And that's our nature. We are that mirror. Now, the mirror by itself, if there was nothing outside of it, it's invisible. The philosopher's zone in alchemy has a name, but it actually is pointing at that. It's invisible. So the reflections, which seemingly obscure the mirror and cover the silvered surface of the mirror, actually are revealing the mirror. That mirror, like nature, that part of us that's untame, painted by any thing, object that it reflects, that's our nature, okay? And just like Christ says, I am a mirror to those that perceive me, okay? So that's that indomitable place. That's that invulnerable place, the true nature part of us that then, say, for example, I'll give you a real empirical example. Say if I'm like sitting here and I feel my wound or my trauma or my unhealed abuse come up, right? Well, if I then react to it, if I identify with it, if I contract against it, well, I'm investing it with reality by doing that, and that's feeding Wateco. But if in that same moment that, that, oh, my subjective experience of feeling wounded and traumatized, keep in mind, I have all the Evidence that I am, because that's what I'm experiencing. But if I recognize. Wait a second, that's the reflection in the mirror, that's just an impermanent display of my mind.

Mind.

And the mind is the mirror, like nature that's always pure and always available, then all of a sudden, I can embrace that momentary display of my woundedness and not grasp onto it. You see, the Buddha, he was a physician of the soul who discovered the cure for an illness. And the illness he discovered the cure for was suffering. And he realized that the cause of suffering is our claim clinging. And when we, for example, have that moment of grasping or of. Of, you know, of, oh, suffering or woundedness or trauma or abuse, if we cling to it, which means either pushing it away or identifying with it, you know that then we are colluding with our own suffering. You see, this is what I'm pointing out with. What? There's no Watiko outside of us. If people hear about a mind virus and feel afraid. No, that feeling afraid. That is what he called. There's nothing to feel afraid about, because there's not there. You know, but if we then cling to it and give it with a reality, then we're colluding with our own victimization. Then we're. We're complicit with evil. Then we're investing in the reality of vo and there is nobody else to blame but ourselves. That's the trippiness of what the Buddha realized and what I'm trying to bring out.

Yeah, I got another paradox for the podcast, Paul. I think about, like, if Watiko is a virus that's inside of us.

Us.

And it lives in the unconscious, then really, it's unconscious incompetence. We don't know that. We don't know. It's the blind spot that we can't even see because we don't even know where to look. Then isn't that the same? To juxtapose the masks that were worn during this whole Covid theater, there's no mask that could ever block wetico. We actually have to look within. There's no mask that would block every air particle from ever coming into my body. Body. We have to protect ourselves from within. So I think about this.

That's. Yeah, that's great.

Yeah, I. I think about this because in your book, one of the things I highlighted was, you know, you've studied young for how long now? Many, many decades? Two decades or more?

40. 40. 40 years.

Okay, 40 years. So in studying young for that long, one of the things you put in the book was Jung talks about. In a time of collective madness, there is only one thing that can save us. New symbolic ideas.

Right.

And this. And this new symbolic idea. Idea. What do you think the figurehead of this new symbolic idea actually is?

Row, row, row your boat, you know? Right. So he talks about that. And by the way, Jung was completely switched on to Watiko. He didn't have the name.

Sure.

The phrase he used was totalitarian psychosis. And I just want to point out. And then I'll get to answer your question. One way to understand what eco. If you remember, I'm saying the external what's happening externally in the world is reflecting what's happening in the mind and vice versa. So think about here, Watiko, you know, we all have it in potential. When it. When all of a sudden it becomes activated, it'll set up this, like, shadow government within our mind. It'll subsume the healthy parts of the psyche into its service. It'll hijack the psyche. It'll colonize our mind. It'll dictate to the ego in such a way that we then become in service to it to the point where we become possessed. Possessed. You know, we become taken over. We become instruments of our own enslavement. What I'm describing, that's exactly what's happening in the world with the totalitarianism that's creeping all over the. All over the globe.

Yeah.

Centralizing power and control. We then collude with it by going belly up and thinking we have no power. We become colonized. We, you know, we're feeding into our own enslavement now, this new symbolic idea. So the inner is the outer is what I'm saying, The reflections of each other. Now, the new symbolic idea. Here's. Here's with. With Jung, he's saying that's the only thing that will save us. Now, we typically think ideas are these ephemeral things. Well, ideas are the way we envision who we are and envision our world. They have this incredible creative potency for how we actually create our experience. And when we recognize that we ourselves have this enormous creative agency because of the dreamlike nature, in a way that, you see, the thing that the greatest tyrants in history were scared of the most was a new idea. And that's not for nothing, because then people realize. They realize when a new idea. If all of a sudden people begin to wake up to, wait a second, who we actually are, that we don't exist as a separate self, but we're actually interconnected and interdependent and that we have this enormous creative power that gets potentiated when we get in phase with each other and are in service to the who that, that we don't have to like just, you know, collude with these seeming like the powers that be that are enslaving us, that we ourselves have this incredible, you know, God given creative agency. And this isn't, you know, something like this new age, this woo woo stuff. No, this is what this is all about. You see, in a sense, think about the quantum physics, the gnosis that is coming through quantum physics. The powers that be don't want us to have it. And that's not a conspiracy theory or paranoia. No. Any physicist who talks about consciousness immediately gets defunded and loses their job. And you see, so we, there is this. We are these geniuses. We have this enormous creative power with these creative geniuses. And if we don't recognize that that energy gets turned against us in a way that's killing us us. But what this new symbolic idea all based on, we're having a collective dream. And as more and more of us wake up and connect with each other and connect with the creative source that we all interface with, then that's a way of describing the new symbolic idea in that we can change the dream we're having. That's the evolution that we are discovering that we can participate in. That's what this is all about, about.

You know, And I think the underpinnings of that is if we look at the reality that this is a dream, it's a collective dream, then we also have to come to terms, we have to face the mirror of our own demise, of our own death. And I think that is probably the number one. I'm curious how you feel the number one reason why people don't want to look at the collective dream is because then we would actually have to deal with on a somatic cellular level. Level the fact that we die.

Yeah. Well, it's interesting, you know, when you study like I have, like the etymology of words, mirror etymologically means the holder of the shadow. So isn't it interesting that Christ is saying I am a mirror to those that perceive me, and yet the word mirror actually is the holder of the shadow, you know, so it's pointing out that there's something hidden and coded within the darkness that's helping us to wake up. Because the psychological dynamic, if people still don't get what you call. Here's the cycle of the underlying psychological dynamic of what he called. And it's scapegoating. It's shadow projecting. So think about if I'm, you know, not owning my own darkness, right? My own shadow. So then what happens? I will disassociate from my darkness. I will project it out and being like a dream, into the dream will walk people who carry my projection of my shadow. They will embody it. Now I have the evidence that the evil, the shadow, is outside of me. And so I become even more fixed in the viewpoint that I'm just good and light and the evil is out there. And then ultimately, what am I going to try to do? I'm going to try to destroy the carriers of darkness because they're reminding me of the darkness in myself that I've tried to exterminate. What, what I'm pointing at is that my inner process of disassociating from my own shadow, I'm now playing out in the outer world. The inner is the outer. And by trying to destroy the evil out there, guess what? I've literally become possessed by the very evil I'm trying to destroy. That's total madness. That's the psychological way of understanding Watiko. And they think about it, how we're escape going, whoever, you know, fill in the blank. But the idea is when you recognize the dreamlike nature and that we're looking in the mirror and the mirror is reflecting back our own darkness, the evil we're seeing out there is a reflection of the evil with us.

That's right.

We, when and when we take responsibility for that and assimilate that and own that, paradoxically, that even gets us more in touch with our own light and with our own goodness.

Someone with a mind virus, they, they have this proclivity to dominate others because inside of themselves, they fear being dominated. That was something that I pulled from your book when I was in nature on the vision quest. And it locked in, I mean, it literally locked in like a, like a cell in a kitchen key. And I thought I reflected in that moment in nature. I was like, what ways do I try to dominate Kerry Michelle? What ways do I try to dominate my business? What ways do I try to dominate others? Because there's a part of me that is in fear of being dominated. I mean, it's a, it's a total twist on most people's motivational source. How do we live life inspired and motivated to accomplish and to achieve if we extinguish 100% percent of dominating others?

Yeah. And. Well, I just want to say, just to Associate for a second. Because, you know, the idea even like with, with different, like a country, they will like attack somebody else proactively because they're afraid of being attacked themselves.

You guys have nukes, so we're going to nuke you first.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like. And they're, they're acting out their own insanity, their own inner process and you know, just to associate for a second, because I saw this with my father as I was individuating. I was in college and I was stepping out of energetically being identified with my family, which is a normal, healthy thing to do. He saw me stepping into my light because I was recognizing, oh, wow, I'm a creative artist and that's what I want to do. That he then, a very abstract way of describing the ability abuse was that he then, when he saw my emerging light, he did everything he could to try to annihilate my light that was coming through me. Because as I was embodying my light, I was reminding and reflecting to him the light that he, moment by moment, was killing in himself. So when we're taken over by Watiko, we're compulsively, like, you know, we're compelled to, to act out what we do to our own soul on somebody else. So he was absolutely compelled to destroy the light in him, to destroy the light in me, because that's what he was doing to himself. And one other way of saying that he was enacting his own inner murder onto me. And, you know, so the point being, this is an unconscious process. Process in the collective unconscious. You know, this is. I don't know if you, you know, the, the great healer Wilhelm Reich, he wrote the book the Murder of Christ, and he points out that, you know, he interprets the murder of Christ and he was pointing out that we killed Christ, humans killed Christ, and that Christ out of his love was showing us the incredible, like, what we're doing to ourselves, that we are literally, literally, moment by moment, in this moment, if we're not awake, we are still murdering the Christ within us, the life force, the creative impulse in us. But by like embodying that and revealing it to us, he was actually helping us to step out of that process. And to the extent that more and more of us realize that we are the murderers of Christ and think about, I mean, it's not an accident that the mythology of the incarnation of God in Western culture is an abuse drama, okay? That's showing us that we're abusing ourselves. We're doing it to Ourselves. When enough of us take that online in our minds and are able to unlock that and decipher that and stop abusing ourselves and attacking ourselves. But on the contrary, channel that same energy to love and compassion. When enough people do that, that's where we can change the world.

World. You know, one of the concepts I've been fascinated by. Carrie and I just did a four day deep NLP training where we learned a modality called timeline therapy. And I'm curious if you've ever explored NLP or timeline therapy in any way.

Not specifically, but so many people but I'm familiar with nlp, people say, oh, a lot of what I do is just nlp, just without knowing it, you know.

Well, I think it's interesting because like you said, you're passionate about etymology and so am I. I love learning the roots of words and I think about, you know, even the, the word language itself. And the word language can mean so many different things to so many different people. What, what do you make of the meaning of the word language? What does that actually mean to you?

Well, it brings up. Yeah, and just let me take a step back with the etymology because when you were were talking about that, I thought about, you know, like, what Tico is this demonic, you know, sort of energy. It's sort of this higher dimensional energy that can take over a person. But encoded in this sort of daimonic energy of Watiko is the creative spirit. But if we don't relate to that daimon, the daimon's the inner voice, the guiding spirit. It consolates negatively and becomes a demon. But etymologically diabolic. The antonym and antidote to diabolic is symbolic. Now symbols are the language of dreams. So in other words, encoded in the etymology is like. Yeah. The antidote for the demonic is to recognize the dreamlike nature which is speaking. This universe is an oracle. It's speaking symbolically now with words. Well, how do you make a word? You spell it. So the idea of words and like, you know, we're not just sort of describing reality with language. We literally part of the, the way we language our experience is literally evoking and creating our experience. Okay. And so it's a very creative thing the way that we, we, we choose our words. Like for example, if somebody says to me, oh, spiritual awakening is really hard, well, that's creative. They're going to, out of all the parallel worlds, they're invoking the universe universe, which will give them evidence confirming their viewpoint that to spiritually awaken is really hard. They've literally put themselves under a spell by their words.

Yes, yes. You are connecting so many dots to NLP right now without even actually probably knowing it. And I feel like this is a thing. Paul, as we wind down here, this has been exceptional. This has been one of my favorite conversations I've had this year in 2022. So thank you for coming on and for all y' all with us. Make sure sure again that you go over to JoshTrent.com podcast. You'll see the episode with Paul and I there. You can pick up the book. This is like a must read if you are resonating if you're with us still. I think about this one quote that you put in the book, and it's a beautiful way to plant a seed in the minds of people that leave this conversation. And you, you quoted Young. You said his theory is the collective unconscious. He believed that human beings are connected to each other and their ancestors. Ancestors through a set of shared experiences. We use this collective consciousness to give meaning to the world. When you hear that phrase, to give meaning to the world, the collective unconscious that we're all attached to or that we're observing, what do you believe the world needs to hear now from this space of meaning, this collective unconsciousness? What do you believe the world needs to hear now from that space?

Yeah, I would love for this. What I'm about to share. This is a great conclusion to everything we've been talking about. So quantum physics, it actually, you know, it was trying to understand what is, what are the building blocks of this universe, what is, you know, what is it all made out of. And the more, you know, the deeper dimensions it would go into, it actually found that there was nothing physical there. There were no physical building blocks, that it was mind, that it was consciousness that was the primary force that was informing our experiential reality. And one other way of saying a similar thing is that. So you have a quantum entity which isn't a physically objective entity because it first comes into being the moment we observe it. Before that moment, it didn't exist. It exists in a state of potentiality, of every and any state it could potentially ever exist in. It exists in that superposition of states, in all potential states that it ever could possibly manifest in. We then observe that quantum entity, which is the building block of this universe. And out of that infinitude of potentiality, realities, all of a sudden, one possibility will actualize and become manifest and all the other ones will just vaporize as if they didn't exist. Okay, now, that being said, and this isn't me saying this, I'm just translating what the founding fathers of quantum physics are saying. They basically are saying that even if one of those potentialities are highly ridiculously. And that's, that's a quote, unlikely, highly improbable, that could still be this next moment of our experience. And to get more concrete, say for example, we have all the evidence we need that we're going to hell in a handbasket and things are really, we're doomed. But yet quantum physics says, but wait a second, there's still the possibility that humanity could awaken in time to avert the impending catastrophe. And if you're not envisioning that, then what are you thinking then? If you're, you know, really just taken over by despair and pessimism, then you're part of the problem. Then by the power of your dreaming, you're going to manifest all the evidence confirming this world. That will be the reason why you should feel pessimistic. But quantum physics is saying, no, that's you're actually one of the co creators. And so when we realize that there is like a very real possibility for sufficient number, you know, think of the hundredth monkey phenomena and the Bible, they talk about 144,000. It's the same idea that when a sufficient number of people. And if I could just bring an example in the collective works, Jung talks about how symbols crystallize that when you have a glass of water and you dissolve grains of sugar in the water, they will dissolve and dissolve and dissolve one after the other until it reaches the saturation point. And then you add one more grain of sugar and a crystal will manifest. And any one of us in this moment waking up to the dreamlike nature, owning our shadow, seeing Watiko. There are a number of different ways of saying the same thing. We could be that grain of sugar that catalyzes an awakening in the collective unconscious of our species. So it's really important to envision us awakening because that's within the realm of possibility. And like I said, been saying, if you're not doing that, then what in the world are you doing?

So, so much. I'm sure somebody is watching this for the second or third time right now, all the way to the end. And for me, when I get attracted to something, I get attracted to it because I know that it is a beautiful meaning for my life and for the lives of the people that I'm touching, that I'm reaching. And this is definitely one of those things. So, Paul as we say goodbye in the center of a lot of the things that we've talked about today, there is wholeness, there is wellness. This has been the question that I've wanted to answer since 2015. How do I live my life well? How do I live my life well? And with this book and with your teachings and with, you know, the, the road ahead for you, how do you define well being? How do you define wellness? What does it mean for you to live your life well here in a collective dream?

Yeah. I could just say one quick thing about that. And that is for me, you know, like I was saying before, or when you have an experience of your true nature, what is your true nature? But it's creative. And so that means that if you have this realization of your true nature, you embody that creativity and you express yourself creatively. Like for example, when I give these talks, I don't ever have any idea what I'm going to say. And that's as it should be. And that I really. That appeals to me, you know, because I just tap into the creative source that is me that isn't separate from any of us. And I just become an instrument to let that come through. So what I'm basically saying is that for me, the medicine, and it's not just for me personally, I'm convinced that this is the medicine for all of us, is to connect with our creative agency. I know for me, I structure my whole day with reference to being creative. But if something happens and I'm not able to be creative on a given day, I don't feel well, you know. So the idea of like having real, this well being, it involves. And it doesn't mean you have to draw or paint or the way we, you know, just go about our day and interact or oh, I have a dish to wash that can be creative. There's no, it's not a Flatland version of it has to look a certain way.

Yeah.

So that, and that creativity is in essence the real, you know, that's the antidote, that's the medicine. That's the cure for what you call.

I want to speak to the mind and heart of somebody who's watching this again for the second or third time, or maybe you're hearing it for the first time and it's sticking to your soul. And I want to tell you that it is totally safe. You have millions and millions and billions of lies that have come before you and that'll come after you. So it is safe to think a different thought. It is safe to Think a different thought. Be mindful of the thoughts that we attach to and absolutely read this book. Paul, what a. What a gift. What a gift to have you on this show. This has been a long time coming. I told you, whenever we have interstitial tension, whenever there's tension that gets in the way, it's probably because something good wants to come through. That is exactly what happened for this conversation. So from my heart to yours, thank you, Paul Levy, for coming on the show. So much wellness, so much wisdom. Let people know where they can connect with you on the webs in this collective dream.

Sure. Okay. Well, thank you. And yeah, so if people, if they want to recognize the dreamlike nature and. And awaken in the dream, they should go to awakeninthedream.com that's my website and you can get my books there. There's a ton of interviews like this, all for free. There's a zillion articles, all for free. Because I just want to get this information out and. Yeah, and I just really appreciate the invite. Josh. Thank you so much.

You're so welcome. Well, until Paul and I see you again, y', all, we're both wishing you love and wellness. We'll talk to you soon. Hey, thanks for watching this video. If you love this video, hit subscribe. That way you'll be automatically notified when new videos come out, new episodes. And also share this video with a friend. If you loved it, they're going to love it, too. Check out some of the videos on this screen that are perfectly curated based on the video you just saw. Make sure you follow me and I'll see you in the next video.