Eat Mushrooms for Better Gut Health and Immunity, with Dr. Anna Sitkoff

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Feel Freaking Amazing podcast. I'm Wendy Trubo. We've got Ed Levitan today and our guest today is Anna Sitkoff. And she's awesome. She is a licensed naturopathic doctor and medicinal mushroom expert. She has over a decade of experience specializing in natural therapies that blend clinical practice with research. She's the co founder and chief science officer of Lucidum Medicinals and formulates evidence based mushroom supplements that support immune, lung, nervous system health. And she's also an expert in women's health and functional medicine and educates practitioners and the public on the therapeutic power of mushrooms. There's a lot to say, but basically she's really cool and knows a lot about mushrooms and takes care of everyone with a huge broad base of information. That's the recap. So welcome Anna. Thanks for being here.

Thanks for having me. And it's Ana.

Anna. Oh my gosh. Thank you for saying something.

Yeah.

All right, all right.

You're going to be talking about one of my favorite subjects.

I know.

Which is mushrooms, because I like to go around in the fall and gather them in the spring if I can, but mostly in the fall.

Yeah. What kind of mushrooms are you harvesting?

Anything that's edible. Anything that is not going to kill us. That I have to be. Our rule is we have to be 100% short. We can identify it and if that's. Then we're fine. If we are 99%, we put it back. So that's that.

That's our good rule. Yeah.

But every year we also say we're gonna learn one mushroom and see if we can find one mushroom.

I mean, you found. We have chicken and hens.

Yeah.

And then you found. Did you find lion's mane? Why do I feel like.

No, no, no, I've never found lion's mane, but a lot of different bologies and things like that. So.

And you found that thing that you. Oh, what's it called? You hack it off the side. Well, you hack them all off the side, but. But the. It grows higher up. Honey. Honey mushrooms.

Oh, no, that's not, that's not on the side.

You're thinking about thinking about Chaga.

I. I have not. I've been looking for Chaga. She thinks that's chicken of the woods, but.

Oh, I see. Okay. Well, Chicken of the woods is one of my favorites. It's delicious. Yeah. And it's beautiful. Yeah.

So back to the story. What is medicinal mushrooms and why do we care?

Yeah. So I mean, mushrooms are the above ground portion or the visible portion of the more broader fungal organism. And then medicinal just means that they have healing properties. So it's the part of the fungal organism that we see that is used for medicine. Basically the part of the fungal organism that we don't see. The mycelium also has some medicinal benefits, but I really prefer to use the mushroom itself. It has more medicinal compounds and it's what's been used for centuries as medicine.

Unfortunately, I have to get in. This is the.

I want to talk about the mycelium. I'm.

I mean, this is the. My challenge. Somebody that's not in the field but just loves it. I don't know who to listen to because there are people like Paul Stamets who use the mycelium and he's like a big, big gorilla in the room, I guess. I mean, he's knowledgeable and there's a whole camp like yourself that say, no, it's not the mycelium, it's the actual mushroom.

Yeah, this is the drama of the mycology world. Like this is. This is it. Right. I don't think that it needs to be one or the other. I think that the, the issue is not the mycelium itself, but it's the way that the mycelium is produced as medicine. So a lot of companies, most companies that are using mycelium in their products, it's not pure mycelium, it's myceliated grain. So there's the substrate that the mycelium is growing on, that's what it's feeding off of. That's how it grows. And then when that's processed, you can't take the mycelium out of the grain. It's all so tightly intertwined. It's like tempeh. Right? It's like trying to take out all of the mycelium from the tempeh. It's like you just can't do that. And so when it's processed, it's this combination of the mycelium and the grain. And so what you're getting in your capsule or your powder or your tincture or whatever is not pure mycelium. It's like whatever alpha glucans are in the grains. Some people are sensitive to grains. It's not going to have, I think, as much, much of a medicinal impact as the fruiting body. There's also a lot more compounds that are produced as the mushroom fruits and grows. There's going to be more polysaccharides or this medicinal beta glucans. There's going to be more secondary metabolites like triterpenes. Whereas some of the mycelium, like lion's mane mycelium, for example, that has erinacenes, whereas the fruiting body doesn't. Erinacines are one of those compounds that's very well researched for brain and nervous system health, stimulates nerve growth factor synthase. And so people are like, well, I only want the mycelium of Lion's Mane because the fruiting body doesn't have the erinacenes. But I think that that is very reductive because there's also a lot of medicinal compounds in the fruiting body, like hericinones, that also stimulate nerve growth factor synthase and support nerve function and brain function. And as we know with herbal medicine and mycological medicine, it's like you can't reduce down a natural substance to one active constituent. It's so much more than that. There's synergy at play in a lot of the research that's done on Lion's Mane, it's with the fruiting body. So I think that in an ideal world, there would be like pure mycelium and that would be mixed with the fruiting body in. In certain situations.

Ana, I have a question because. Please forgive me, like, very basic question, which is when I think of mycelium, I think of them as almost diaphanous and not like you can't really pick it up. Like you can pick up the mushroom. When you're talking about the mycelium, are you talking about these broad connections underground of the mycelium? It's almost like a fungus, but it's not. It's like a chain, but it's not as tangible. It has to grow on something, right?

Yeah. And sometimes there are like liquid. Liquid cultures. And that's like the companies that are making pure mycelium products, they're growing the mycelium on liquid so you don't have to separate it out. But yeah, I mean, when you're in the forest and if there's a fruiting body, if you dig under the ground, you can see the mycelium and you can often pick it up, but it's within everything that it's growing on. And there's really not any kind of historical use of mycelium. But I will say too, that the fruiting body part of the structure is the mycelium integrated into that. So a lot of the compounds you'd be looking for, say, aside from the erinacenes, which are only in the mycelium of lion's mane are also in the fruiting body. So you're not really like missing out on. On much. If anything. I think you're. You end up benefiting more. And I think one other kind of issue that I see is that there's a lot of mycologists like Paul Stamets, who started these medicinal mushroom or mycelium supplement companies, and they're not practitioners. It's like they don't really. They're not with patients on a daily basis. They're not actually like prescribing their product to see how people respond in different disease situations. And I think it's really different to think about and talk about mushrooms from the perspective of a practicing physician than just somebody who's making supplements.

Right. You want to know about the clinical applicability of it and is it working?

Yeah.

And how is it working?

Yeah.

So when I gather hen of the woods or you put in metake into a supplement, what's the difference? Or is there a difference?

Yeah, there shouldn't be a huge difference. I mean, I think one, it depends where your maitake is growing, when you find it. Mushrooms do pick up heavy metals from the environment, so I guess that would be one difference is that my supplements most hopefully are being tested for heavy metals before they're distributed out to the public. But as far as the medicinal benefits, it's basically the same. You would just have to eat maitake a few times a day on a daily basis, which I don't have a problem doing that. But not everybody wants to do that. But if you're cooking the maitake, if you're just sauteing it, or if you're having it in a soup and drinking the broth, you're still going to be getting those medicinal polysaccharides that you would be getting in a supplement, plus some other benefits.

You need a higher concentration if you're eating the raw or cooked. If you're eating the actual fruiting body of the mushroom, you need more of it than in a supplement just because of a concentration ability of the supplement. Okay.

Yeah. But the benefit, I think with eating it is that you're going to be getting a lot more fiber. And you know, the chitin in mushroom cell walls is, I think, a pretty significant part of the medicinal benefits of the mushrooms. And if you' like a mushroom tincture or a concentrated extract, you're probably not getting that much of the chitin. And that has really positive benefits for the gut microbiome. It's a prebiotic. I mean, the mushroom polysaccharides are also prebiotic. But I think eating food is probably eating the mushrooms as food is going to have a bigger impact on your gut microbiome, on helping to lower cholesterol and stabilize blood sugar. In the same way that eating any kind of fibrous food food would like, you'd rather eat the fiber than have like a fiber capsule.

And does cooking versus raw mushroom make any difference?

Yeah. So when you cook the mushrooms, more of the active constituents will come out. So if you cook a mushroom, you're going to be getting more of the beta glucans or those polysaccharides. You're going to be getting more ergothyanine, which is a really cool amino acid compound found in a lot of mushrooms like maitake. And so having it raw, I just don't recommend it. It's like one. I don't think the flavor is that good. And then also like I was going.

To ask, why do people not recommend raw mushrooms? Eating mushrooms raw?

Well, and it depends on the mushroom. So like some, so like shiitake, eating too much raw shiitake mushroom, you can get something called shiitake dermatitis. Eating like raw morel mushrooms can straight up kill you, be poisonous. So and then other kind, common mushrooms like maitake or lion's mane, it's probably not going to hurt you if you eat them raw, but it's not going to taste as good. You're not going to get as many medicinal benefits. You'll probably still get some of the nutrition benefits. Like you'll still get like the B vitamins and the ergosterol or the vitamin D. I wouldn't really depend on mushrooms for your main vitamin D source. But yeah, I think that it used to be believed that chitin needed to be broken down by the heat to even like absorb any benefits from mushrooms. But we do make certain digestive enzymes that break down chitin. And so that's not necessarily true.

Okay, so how do we add. So what are some of the mushrooms that like, what are some of your favorite and what, what are the benefits?

You mean like getting multiple bang for your buck, not just eating and getting fiber, but getting some medicinal compound in addition via a mushroom.

Like if you're going to eat a.

Mushroom, if you're going to eat a mushroom, what's the best ones?

Well, no, it's. But it's really like for cognitive. Do we this lion's mane really live up to its name in terms of what it's reputed or is that not Real. Does it really help with cognition?

I think the lion's mane really does help with cognition. But the thing with lion's mane is that you need to be consuming at least like 2 grams of the extract daily. And what the studies show is that when you stop consuming the lion's mane, it stops having benefits. So it really only seems to be helpful while you're taking it. But I have seen it be very helpful in situations where you don't necessarily need to be taking it long term, like for recovery from traumatic brain injury or recovery from stroke. As far as, like, does it prevent dementia or does it prevent neurodegenerative disease? I'm not totally convinced that lion's mane does. I mean, definitely doesn't do that better than like exercise. You know, exercise is actually beneficial for that. But other kinds of compounds in lion's mane and mushrooms like maitake and oyster mushroom, like ergothione, for example, there's probably more likely that the more ergothioneine you have in your diet regularly will help to prevent neurodegenerative disease. And yeah, many, many mushrooms are high in ergothioneine. I think that also it's like if you're eating mushrooms, if you're eating lion's mane on a daily basis, you're also supporting blood sugar regulation, you're also supporting your gut microbiome. All of those things are helpful for preventing neurodegenerative disease and helping your brain and your nervous system. So I think the benefits are layered. I don't necessarily think that taking a capsule of lion's mane on a daily basis is gonna necessarily be like the thing that moves the needle for most people.

Do you ever use it for patients who have just had Covid and are experiencing that brain fog and sort of mental lack of acuity after Covid? Do you ever use the lion's mane for them in a short term period?

So what I've found to be more helpful is focusing on things that are more like mitochondrial support, so more antioxidant. Rich mushrooms like chaga or ergothione, rich mushrooms like maitake or oyster mushroom or shiitake. I actually am part of a medicinal mushroom committee of the American Mycological association, and we were just having a conversation about using lion's mane post Covid yesterday, and somebody was saying that she actually had a friend who started responding really differently to lion's mane after having Covid and actually having like more of a negative effect, which is kind of interesting. I mean, I think it might be more related to the alcohol in the tincture that I think people's response to alcohol can change after having Covid. But yeah, I think that really focusing on restoring mitochondrial function and improving endurance and exercise tolerance post Covid tends to in turn help with the brain fog and kind of cognitive deficits that come. So things like chronic cordyceps can really, really helpful for improving exercise tolerance post Covid. And even if you don't have Covid or haven't had Covid and then Reishi to Ganoderma lucidum for helping to regulate the nervous system and cortisol levels post Covid and helping with kind of lung capacity can be really helpful. And then if you're able to move your body, that tends to be really helpful for brain fog and cognitive deficits.

So it sounds like, if I'm reading this right, Ana, that essentially you go to the. We went to Super 88 on the east coast. I don't know if you have that on the west coast. It's a Chinese food store, Asian food store, and they have a million varieties of mushroom. I didn't notice if they had them in tincture form, but I never looked. But essentially get a million varieties and cook up a small amount of them a couple times a day. And they would include the chaga and the cordyceps. Like there's a lot of them. So it's not just a one size fits all.

They don't know that's where the dried mushrooms would come in. Not the.

See, I need a map here. I'm very. Like a baby.

Yeah. So the thing with mushrooms is that we have our edible mushrooms and we have the edible medicinals like maitake, lion's main oyster shiitake, like we've been talking about. And then there's the medicinals that are too woody to eat, like chaga and reishi. I guess cordyceps would be in that category, even though technically it's like softer. And you could probably just cook it up and eat it, but most people don't do that. And then other kind of polypore hard mushrooms that are going to be mostly growing on trees. And so those ones you're not going to saute and cook and eat, but you can boil them into a broth, like a medicinal broth, and you can drink that throughout the day or you can use that broth water to cook your. Your grains. And so I think that's a really good way to get those medicinals on a daily basis if you're preferring to be consuming them as, as more of a food Thing, but otherwise, like most people are not going to do that. And the best way, I think the, the most effective way to use mushrooms is whatever you're more likely to do on a daily basis. And most people are just not going to eat mushrooms on a daily basis. And so those woodier medicinals, I think most people benefit from just getting them in a, a powdered extract or a double extract tincture.

Okay.

What I'm excited about is, I didn't realize, I thought oysters were just for food, not they didn't have medicinal properties because they're easy to grow.

Yeah, yeah.

That's exciting. Do you find that the substrate matters in terms of medicinal properties? Is that a thing?

It is a thing, yeah. And there's some interesting research showing. It's like if you add, for example, mushrooms that grow on a soy based substrate will have more isoflavones in them, so they'll pick up the medicinal compounds from the substrate they're growing on. Chaga is a great example of, usually grows on really old birch trees. And one of the main medicinal compounds in wild chaga is betulinic acid, which is coming from the birch tree. And so, yeah, I think it definitely makes a difference. And that's why, I mean, ultimately mushrooms that are grown in a more wildlike environment are going to, I think, have kind of a more medicinal effect. But that being said too, because the substrate matters, what that substrate has in it will also make a difference. Like if that substrate has some heavy metals or bacteria or things that you don't want in the mushroom might also end up in the mushroom.

So are there any studies? Because I know all these wildfires on the west coast release, especially with the recent wildfires that have burned homes. But I'm even just thinking about wildfires that are burning forests and releasing methylmercury back into the environment. Does it then land on the trees that the mushrooms are growing on and contaminate them? Are there any studies about that? I mean, I'm assuming it is, but.

That'S a great question. And probably.

Okay, yeah. So you want to be careful where you get it from.

Exactly. And so this is also, I think, like I said, it's either like wild mushrooms or mushrooms grown in a wild like environment. It's like it tends to be better, I think, to get your mushrooms that are kind of in a somewhat controlled yet wild like environment rather than just like out in the wild where you. Yeah, you don't really know like what kind of toxins are, are there or what might be kind of taken up by the fungal organism.

Right, right.

So are there any mushrooms that we should be consuming to either improve the immune system or help us with longevity? What's. There's a lot of things out there still need.

There are a lot of things out there, yeah. I mean, just thinking about the immune system generally, I think that if you're eating any mushroom on a daily basis, it's going to have some kind of immune benefits. There are certain mushrooms that are more, I think, better researched for their immune benefits. Like turkey tail would be a big one. Reishi, maitake, oyster mushroom. It's really the polysaccharides in the mushroom cell wall that are going to be eliciting the strongest immune supportive benefit. So they're going to be interacting with the immune cells in our gut associated lymphoid tissue, stimulating the release of different cytokines that will then stimulate natural killer cells and cytotoxic T cells and really supporting our antiviral antitumor defenses. And then if you're consuming mushrooms regularly or taking them as a supplement, that's also going to support this immune training theory where if you are consuming beta glucans on a regular basis for a period of time, maybe a month, that immune benefit will remain even when you're not taking the mushrooms or eating the mushrooms anymore for a period of time. So I think, yeah, there's not really like, even just like eating chicken of the woods is going to have some benefit on the immune system. But as far as, like, if you have a patient who's actually like, immune suppressed or getting sick often, I wouldn't necessarily just tell them to go eat chicken of the woods. I would say, okay, you need like a good dose of turkey tail in maitake. And reishi or cordyceps is another great antiviral.

I have a question that's on a totally different subject, and it's personal. I will acknowledge that it is personal. Anna. So I love mushrooms. They don't love me back.

Tell me what is.

Yeah, yeah. So usually a good amount of gi. Upset like, like, they go right through me.

And is this just with eating mushrooms or is this also with mushroom supplements?

I don't. I. I've been reluctant to trial mushroom supplements because of the impact of eating the mushrooms. But I'm open. I mean, it's the weekend when we're recording, so I'm open. I can do it on the weekend. But I'm curious, like, what can you tell someone like me who's like, I just don't do. I don't feel great when I eat them. It's disruptive.

Yeah, I think there could be a few things at play. So like I said that chitin in the mushroom cell wall. So chitin is like the same substance that crustacean shells are made of or like insect exoskeletons and that's what is going to make up the mushroom cell walls. Not everybody has the chitinase enzymes to break them down.

I'm sure I don't have it.

It sounds like you probably don't have it.

Worst genes ever.

Yeah. So there's actually like a good percentage of the population does not make those chitinase enzymes. And so if you're not making those enzymes then you're not going to be able to break down the chitin into the smaller chitosin fragments and you might have a pretty harsh response. So my what I'm curious about if you were open to an experiment is to consume a mushroom product that does not have the chitin in it. So that would either be an aqueous extract or a water extract. And so that could be just like you could just boil it and then drink the mushroom tea or a liquid like a tincture that's dual extracted with alcohol and water or a really concentrated like 8 to 1 powdered extract. None of those will have the chitin. Chitin is not water soluble or alcohol soluble. And I'd be very curious to see if you still have the response because I'll bet it's a response to the chitin itself.

I mean we had reishi. Does reishi have. We had a reishi hot chocolate that I was fine with. Tested that a bunch of times.

That was totally fine and they probably used a powdered extract in that.

Does that have. Does the reishi have chitin in the fresh form?

All mushrooms. So if it's a mushroom it has chitin in it. Just like human cell walls are always look a very specific kind of way. It's like no matter what we're going to have cholesterol in our cells. Mushrooms are always going to have chitin.

And is there a chitin? I'm sorry Ed, but we have to. I know. That's what I was going to ask is the chitinase enzyme because I really do like them. It's just not mutual at this moment.

Yeah. And so you probably just don't have the enzyme. So just see how you do with the powdered. If it's a concentrated powdered extract or a liquid extract, you should be fine. There will not be any chitin in there.

Okay.

Are there an enzyme?

Oh, like, can you take a chitinase enzyme? Yeah, I don't think so.

Business idea of business idea.

I like to, like, I go to forest foraging for mushrooms and then I won't eat them.

You don't love me. He's like, my love language is finding you mushrooms. I'm like, okay, then we have a gap here. We're married, by the way.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would also. I mean, with those mushrooms that you're collecting, maybe you could just try to make a broth with them.

I used to love mushroom soup as a kid, but. Okay, what about grinding them up? Does that. That digest the chitin or. It's still there. Okay.

It's still there.

Is there any chance that you can have a detox reaction when you eat mushrooms? Because that was my other thought. Like, is it that I don't like the mushroom or I'm having a detox reaction.

Maybe. I mean, mushrooms are like, slightly. They're certain. Mushrooms are going to be antimicrobials and have. Be antiviral. I really don't think that they would elicit enough detox to have like a Herxheimer kind of reaction. Um, but if you're really sensitive, maybe.

Okay, no, I'm going to try the. The. Because we just had hot pot on earlier in the week for our daughter's birthday and I put mushrooms in the broth because I'm like, I'm not going to eat them.

I'll just.

I'll just soak them. But then I ate a few, so.

Okay, but you ate the broth too.

Yes, I'm fine. I think I'm fine with the broth. It's just the.

This is a good theory. The chitinies. Yeah.

This is a business idea for you.

Yeah. Do you. Do you. Have you ever, like, eaten insects, like dried like cricket powder or anything like that?

I had. We had cricket bars like three years ago.

Do you remember how you did with us?

I don't remember, but we can buy them again.

Yeah.

I don't know if the kids didn't like them or I don't remember. We just didn't buy them again. And I am reactive to shellfish, so.

Yes.

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. I think.

Yes. I. Yeah, I blame chitin.

Okay. Now we'll talk about everybody else.

Okay. Yeah, but I think that's helpful. I mean, for the listeners. Right. It's like there's likely to be somebody who doesn't have the chitin ace enzyme listening. And so if you're reacting to mushrooms from eating them. Just try them in a different form.

Okay. Like a truck.

Eat it and see if you do.

Well, I feel better than a cricket. Yeah, that's the best test. Yeah.

Can vegans eat crickets and bugs? Do vegans eat bugs?

They're very much living, so probably not.

Probably not. Okay. Yeah, for my dumb question, it's fine.

I mean, some. I know a lot of vegans actually, that eat, like, oysters and because they don't really consider them to be as alive, maybe. I don't know.

Interesting.

Yeah.

That would be the last.

I don't know. I don't understand the vegan philosophy.

Okay.

Okay.

How about women's health? How do we apply all of the medicinal properties for mushrooms and layer them onto, like, what is. What are the medicinal properties best suited for women's health?

Yeah, this is one of my favorite topics. So start with maitake. Since we've been talking about maitake so much already, there's a cool study that was comparing maitake and clomiphene citrate and for ovulation for women who have pcos, and they have very different mechanisms of action. It's like maitake can be helpful for PCOS because it helps to improve insulin sensitivity and glucose metabolism, whereas clomiphene is blocking estrogen receptors. But women responded almost just as well to the maitake as they did to the clomiphene. And then the women who did not ovulate with clomiphene, when they mixed in the maitake and the clomiphene in combination, they had better outcomes with ovulation. So I think for any kind of, I mean, PCOS and ovulation, if you have PCOS and you're not ovulating, maitake can be a helpful addition there. And it's through the mechanism of improving insulin sensitivity. And then don't wait.

Oh, yeah, Talk about, like, how much, how often, what's the duration? Does it. Does it last once you stop or do you lose the benefit once you stop? Like, like, let's. Can we get into the weeds?

Yeah, totally. So I do at least. At least 2 grams a day of maitake. And it you want to have a good portion of those maitake polysaccharides in there, the beta glucans, that's what was used in the study. And so having like a more concentrated maitake powdered extract, I think would be probably the best way. Or if you're eating a lot of maitake on a daily basis would probably be enough. But you need to be Eating it like a few times a day, every single day. And then you want to also be actually taking it for many months. So I would say like at least three months. And that's kind of what I say. With any kind of hormonal shift, it's like give it three months, give it a few cycles. But yeah, I mean, for these women, like their, the goal was ovulation and then conception, and so they ended up stopping the maitake anyways once conception happened.

But how many people do you have? I mean, I can't even. I don't even have enough fingers to count the number of people with metabolic dysfunction. And so when you draw the line between PCOS and metabolic dysfunction and that the maitake is helping with metabolic dysfunction, I'm thinking this is, you know, a lot of people are on Ozempic or tirzepatite and they're fine, but they'd also like to impact the underlying source of the dysfunction. And this sounds like, like one really nice entry into that.

Yeah, exactly. Right. And then it's like with the metabolic dysfunction, if you're having too much insulin in the system, you can end up with too much testosterone in the system. And then that's also like driving PCOs and reishi. Ganoderma species can also be really helpful for decreasing dihydrotestosterone. So.

That'S how much, how often?

Yeah, exactly. So that's again, I would say like 2 to 4 grams per day every single day. For the, like, hormonal benefits, they don't need to be taken multiple times a day. Whereas if your, your goal is immune support, I really recommend like on an empty stomach multiple times a day. But for like. Yeah, the metabolic benefits, it's not necessarily. Yeah.

Have you seen that? Like, so a lot of men. I was actually excited when you said clomiphene replacement because I put a lot of men on clomiphene. Yeah, Testosterone. But, yeah, that doesn't sound like that's the thing. But, but when we do boost testosterone, definitely a side effect is too high. Dihydrotestosterone.

Exactly. Yeah. And so Reishi can help to block five alpha reductase.

Oh, nice.

Yeah.

Okay, so instead of putting people on finasteride or the sulfa metal.

Yeah, I mean, it's not going to work as well as finasteride, but it will have, it will have some, some benefit for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's also, I think some. I haven't really seen the research with this, but I know that, like, some people are talking about Using reishi for male pattern baldness and seeing some benefits. I haven't been using it in my practice that way, but. But yeah, kind of interesting to think about. And then as far as other kinds of like women's health, hormones, fertility goes, I think like we talked about earlier with the gut microbiome, it's like having a healthy gut microbiome is so important for estrogen detoxification metabolism. And mushrooms really do play an important role with improving gut microbiome as a aspect of. As a prebiotic. And so they're helping to increase levels of Lactobacillus and bifidobacterium and then downstream effects increasing postbiotics like butyric acid and supporting estrogen excess symptoms.

This is fascinating to me because it's always, you know, because I don't. Can't really eat them. I'm like, I don't pay attention to them now. I'm like, I need to pay attention to this. So, okay, is there a time of day that matters best? Meaning if you're. If people are taking the tinctures and they're not eating the actual raw mushroom, does it matter? Morning or evening, Is there a time when it's more beneficial or is it really just using it is better than not using it? Don't worry about the time.

Depends on what you're using it for. If you're using reishi for more, kind of like cortisol regulation benefits, if you want more energy in the morning to improve cortisol in the morning, I would take the reishi in the morning. Reishi really has an amphoteric effect. It can also help to lower nighttime cortisol and help you asleep. And so if you're. If that's the focus, then you could take it at night. Oftentimes if you're having too high of cortisol at night, your morning cortisol is also going to be kind of wonky. So taking it morning and night can be kind of most helpful for most people. For the immune benefits, generally on an empty stomach multiple times a day. If multiple times a day feels impossible, then at least do it on an empty stomach once a day. And then yeah, I think as far as like other kinds of benefits that don't really have, like, you're not looking for like more energy or to like feel a certain way. Kind of like the more, I guess the invisible benefits like helping with cholesterol and metabolic health and these other things, the time of day doesn't really matter as much.

Can you take too much of it?

I don't. Most people are not going to have any negative side effects from taking too much mushrooms. But there's definitely like a dose response curve as far as like the effectiveness. And so say like 3 grams is better than 1 gram, but 3 grams is not better, but 9 grams is not better than 3 grams.

Yeah, it's similar to marijuana. Right. You have a, you have a. There's not a added benefit to increasing the dose. Once you found the dose of marijuana for sleep, that works for you, stay there, you don't need to go up, so.

Exactly. Okay. Yeah.

And then for cholesterol, can you speak to the top strains, strands?

Yeah, I guess like the types of mushrooms or the genus and species of the mushrooms. I think that shiitake mushroom or oyster mushroom, maitake as well are all going to be beneficial. But they're going to be beneficial kind of in a similar way that any fiber is. Right. They're going to like bind to bile acids and then you'll excrete them in your feces. And through that you're going to be lowering your cholesterol. There's also the benefit of the chitin in the mushrooms that can bind to the cholesterol and make it so you absorb less cholesterol overall. And then the other benefit too, I'd say if you're not eating the mushrooms, because I think you're going to get most of those benefits if you're actually consuming the mushrooms and you're eating a lot of the fiber. But I think that the mushrooms like chaga and reishi, there's actually some research there where it actually helps with lipid peroxidation. So it can help not necessarily to lower cholesterol, but it can help to decrease the oxidation of lipids, which can help to prevent atherosclerosis and heart disease.

Okay, so I'm sorry, how do you pronounce, Is it lucidum?

Lucidum.

Okay, perfect.

Yeah, it's the species of reishi. So reishi mushroom is ganoderma lucidum and lucidum also like lucid. It means like light bright. So yeah, our company's name is lucidum.

Okay, so what do you guys do? And like how do you make sure that you get high quality mushrooms? Because that's not. If you're saying, well, yeah, I'll just leave it at that.

Yeah. So my mushroom mentor and good friend Jeff Chilton, he owns North American Mushroom Extracts, or namx, and so we get all of our powdered extracts from him and his company and all of Those powdered extracts are tested for medicinal compounds, heavy metals, any microbes that might be present, and all certified organic. And so I have, like, my full trust in. In him and. And the mushrooms that that company grows.

Wonderful.

Yeah.

Okay. And is there any type of lifestyle. I mean, because we're really big on the foundations of your health, which is, you know, your. Your movement, your stress, your sleep, your emotional health. Ensuring that the foundations of your health are good, that your gut's working. Are there any specific things that you want to highlight to make sure people are working on that can round out how effective the mushrooms are in there when they take them?

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I think to go off of all the things you just said, it's like if in naturopathic medicine, and I think in functional medicine, too, it's like we're always thinking about, like, what are the barriers to cure? And if you're taking mushrooms but you're not exercising, not eating enough protein, not having good sleep, like, the mushrooms aren't going to do anything if those barriers are in place. So I always tell people, you know, when you wake up in the morning, go outside if you can, move your body on a daily basis, stabilize your blood sugar throughout the day, eat enough protein, have some kind of mindfulness practice. I think that, yeah, trying to get all of the sleep you can. It's like, I'm a new mom. I know what it's like to not get good sleep, but just like, do your best and finding joy, community, all of those fundamentals of health are so important, and they're not ever going to take, like, mushrooms will never take the place of any of those things.

Congratulations on the baby.

Thank you. I guess he's not so new anymore. He's like 15 months, but it still feels new.

Still keeping you up at night. So he's new enough.

Do you remember when I would be like, all I want is unbroken sleep. It's all I wanted. All of our humans.

Yeah. Luckily he sleeps through the night, but my nervous system is still like, somewhat. You know, it's like, I think all moms, it never really goes away. Probably. Yeah. Like, did I hear something.

I forgot? From a foraging point of view, do mushrooms actually have protein? I keep forget trying to remember to ask to look it up, but I have.

Yeah, mushrooms have protein. I wouldn't depend on them as your main protein source, but they have protein.

With a good cheesesteak, you know?

Yeah, exactly.

Then they're going to have really good protein.

If you saute the mushrooms and put them on steak. That's great. Protein.

Yeah. Or burger.

Yeah.

Or liver.

Yeah. You guys are speaking my language.

Anna, thank you for being here. Where can people find out more about you? We'll put everything in the show notes so that it's.

Oh, great. Yeah. My website, drannisitkoff.com or the Lucidum Medicinals website is lucidummedicinals.com I'm also on Instagram as Dr. Ana Sitkoff.

Okay, awesome.

Well, pleasure to meet you. Thank you. It's always fun to talk mushrooms.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I can't wait. Spring. So I'm. I'm hoping that I can go out and forge a little bit and see what's out there. Although spring around here.

Bring something home we can boil.

Yeah, exactly.

All right. Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Feel Freaking Amazing Podcast. And for the listeners, this is Anas Hitkoff, who is an expert in mushrooms and all things super cool about human health. So, Ana, thank you for being with us today.

Thank you so much for having me.

Been awesome.