Feel Less Anxious and Boost Your Serotonin Naturally, with Stephanie Wang

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Hello and welcome to the Feel Freaking Amazing podcast. I'm Wendy Trubo and Ed Levitan is with us today. And today we have Stephanie Wang, who I'm really excited to interview. She is the founder and CEO of KA and Pathogenics, a company dedicated to making a sacred plant called Canna accessible for daily wellness. And we're going to discuss all its benefits. Today, she is pioneering the empathogen category in wellness, offering people a natural, clinically proven way to regulate their nervous systems and reduce stress. So, Stephanie, welcome. Thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me on the show. So nice to meet you both.

You too.

Yeah, I'm super excited because we, we just talked that I, I attended the psychedelic conference in Denver because I'm deep into learning psychedelics and Kenna seems is, well, you're going to tell us all about it, but it's a legal way that it's a plant and it's not psychedelic, but it has such amazing benefits.

So wait, before we dive into Canada, how'd you get into this?

Wow. So about 13 years ago is when I first encountered, and I've always been super interested in consciousness and wellness. And I was at my very first plant ceremony at the time. And ironically, it was not with any psychedelic substances or plants like ayahuasca or psilocybin. It was actually with Kanna. And it made such an indelible impression on me because of its empathogen quality. Right. So that means a heart opening quality. And during that time, I was on a high dose, I was on a ceremonial dose. And I really, I had never in my life felt such a deep sense of belonging, of acceptance and love. And my heart was more open than I had ever experienced before. So it was an incredible moment. And I also realized I wanted to bring this to the world because I had always, to me, you know, one of the biggest core wounds of humanity is separation and us feeling completely disassociated from ourselves. Most people, if you ask them how they feel, they are not that connected with their own feelings. And part of that is the reason why I think of what contributes to a lot of mental health issues as well, emotional health issues as well. I think when we are not connected to our full spectrum of feelings, we're not processing things that need to come up. We're not connecting to who we really are. And also just being reminded of what it feels like to be yourself and to be in this field. Is in this field, meaning in this, in this vibration of oneness is incredible. And that's what this plant reminds us of.

That's really. It sounds like a really cool experience.

It was. It was. And it really actually changed my life. It's from that moment on, it was a very big part in my own personal healing journey. And then maybe six years after that, I started to really look into it in science and like, okay, now if I really want to launch a product, how feasible is it? How accessible can I make it? And I did. I wanted to make it accessible to people outside of ceremony, outside of those ritualistic environments, and to really see how people could incorporate as a daily supplement, which it absolutely is and can be.

Okay, so let's back up 10,000 steps because Ed's aware of Kanna. You are aware of Kanna. I am a novice, so pretend you're talking to me, the novice and all the listeners. What is Kanna?

Absolutely. So Kanna is a beautiful little succulent plant that grows close to the ground, that's native to Southern Africa, South African, Namibia. Yes. And it is a plant that is a natural serotonin reuptake inhibitor. And a serotonin. Right. So this is where its properties of lifting mood and relieving stress, all of that comes in. And it's been. I mean, there's been a long, long history of human use because the indigenous people of Southern Africa, the Koi and the Bushmen, have been. This plant has been so much part of their culture, not just medicinal culture, but also social culture. And it was also traded as well. And it's been such a big part of their life. So there's a long of safe human use as well. And it's a fascinating plant. What's also really interesting is that it doesn't just act on the serotonergic system in our bodies. It also inhibits an enzyme called PDE4. It also activates receptors for GABA, for opioids, for cholecystokinin, for melatonin, just to name a few. Because it has so many active alkaloids that's part of this plant. So it's a really, really unique plant in that way, because the weight and how it works in your body is not targeting a single receptor the way, let's say a chemical SSRI would like an antidepressant would. So it doesn't have a lot of the negative side, if it doesn't have any of the negative side effects that taking an antidepressant would have, and has a lot of other benefits as well. So, for example, besides the heart opening aspect, it also is a cognitive answer so helping you with problem solving, memory. And all of this actually is documented in scientific studies. It's just that most people have not heard of this plant, even though there's been quite a number of years of research that's been done on it. And then another aspect besides the nootropic aspect, helping you with focus and memory and problem solving, it is also, it is also very helpful. Besides calming stress, it is also helpful for energy as well. Because it's a PDE4 inhibitor. It actually helps the body resource more energy, but in a very grounded way. So there's no caffeine at all in it. But when your body's able to regulate the stress response and also resource energy in your body better, you just generally have a much more sustained and grounded energy that you can actually resource from.

I have 8,000 questions.

Stephanie, please go ahead.

Okay, so my first question is for the listeners who might not be as familiar with the terminology that you're using when you say a heart opener. What should our listeners be hearing or understanding when you say that?

That's a really good question. When I say heart opening, I mean that the way this plant works in our body and is felt in our bodies is that you are more emotional, become more emotionally available. That's one aspect. You have more empathy. It creates more empathy for yourself and for others. And so that's why, you know, as a category, it is an empathogen. And that's what it means. Heart opening, meaning you're better able to connect with somebody else with yourself. Being able to access maybe a fuller range of your own emotions and being able to. To process them. Being able to better connect with. With another person, maybe especially for people maybe who are much more introverted or have a lot of social anxiety. This is also a great ally to help people in those social situations.

Now I have 10,000 more questions. Okay, you can jump in all the time.

You go, you jump in. I have thoughts, but you go.

My first question is there's a plant here that's endangered. Is it San Pedro? What's the plant here?

That's peyote.

Peyote. So is it endangered? That's a psychedelic. Is it endangered in any way or no?

And in fact, it does grow, grow in the wild. And the wild population has been diminishing because people are realizing, rediscovering, I would say, the value of this amazing plant. But all you know, there's tons of farms that actually grow Kano. So for example, we source ours from a farm that also is super sustainable. And all of that. So in that sense, no, because these are all. These are not wild harvested. You know, the kanna is not well harvested. So.

And what are. What. When. So if someone's taken kanna, what might they experience? Like in the. In their felt sense of it?

Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a distinction between ceremonial dose and what Stephanie is talking about, which is a daily. Daily dose, potentially. Maybe you can talk about that.

Yeah, both of your questions. So, you know, you're absolutely right. There is a difference between a daily dose and a ceremonial dose. So you can take kanna in ceremony. So what is a ceremonial dose? That is a tricky question because you can go online and it'll say, oh, anything, you know, 300, 500 milligrams. It really depends on the kanna that you are working with. Some kannas have a higher potency because they have a higher alkaloid content and some don't. Then you have to distinguish between extracts and the actual herb. But before, I don't want to get into the weeds of that. But just to say the ceremonial dose essentially is a much higher dose, maybe three, four times. And then you have a daily dose, which again, for example, with Arcana, I would say like a 30 milligrams as a daily dose. And the felt sense in the body is really beautiful. So the first thing people will notice is just a calm that comes. I like to describe it at first comes in your head and you feel just a calming of stress and just a general quieting of your mind. Then you'll actually feel that felt sense move through your body, and it does go to your heart, and you literally will feel like a warmth in your heart, and that relaxation will start to then extend into your body and start to relieve tension that way. And so I would say the first thing is just a calm, a sense of calm. And then a little bit later, a mood lift. And I would say a very calm euphoria. And I want to really be careful what I say here. It does not get you high at all. And, you know, it's another reason why it's legal in pretty much everywhere, except, interestingly in Louisiana. But that's where some other plants like damiana and blue lotus are also not. Are also prohibited. But in general, it's a very, very subtle effect. It's a sober effect. It does not incapacitate you. It's not intoxicating in any way. It just helps you feel more you and more present, if that makes sense.

So there's no caffeine and there's no intoxication effect, but you make you more you. And how long does that last when you take it?

Well, it depends on the form you take it in. So for example we have chews and tincture the chew because it is solid, there is mass, so it will last longer. So it really depends. For me it lasts any for most people I would say could last three hours to six hours depending. So depends the tincture or anything that is more sublingual will have a faster peak effect but it won't last as long. It's just the format is different. Yeah.

So like I think about it when I used to do marijuana as a prescriber and we would talk about if you're doing a tincture, if you're doing a vape, it's a two hour experience. If you're doing a tincture it's four and if you're doing an edible, it's eight. Sort of be mindful about what you're going to get based on the route of administration. So Kanna also sounds like it does that, that similar it's longer because it's got to go through the gut.

Yeah, I mean that's a great analogy. But then again, you know, if you have the tune, you suck on it and you just absorbing everything through your mucosal membrane directly, you're also going to feel. So, you know, it's learning a little bit of how you best, you know, what, what the best way that works for you. And of course every single body is different so there will be variations in how people, you know, the dosage that is appropriate for someone versus another person. Right. So there's a lot of factors that.

Go into this and when people. I'll let you talk in a minute and I promise when people are dosing this, is it appropriate or okay to do every day or do you need to take a break because the receptors get saturated?

That's also extremely good question. We like to think that as a daily supplement, as long as you're not taking a massive, massive ceremonial heroic dose every day, it is really well suited for mental emotional support that way. It's actually how the indigenous also recommend that it be taken. You know, they can, they also used to take it ceremonially, you know, helps them connect to their ancestors. But I think the greatest benefit that can be derived from this plant is taking it daily. And, and this is the reason why it's non addictive, it's actually adaptogenic and it's neuroprotective. So there's been, you know, a lot of there's been a lot of chatter online or in the ether about, you know, they'd like to compare it with other substances, you know, which I don't know if I should mention it here, like things like mdma, but it's so, so different. MDMA has amphetamines. It can be addictive. It's you, it's. You cannot take it every day because it will damage your nervous system. Kanna is completely the opposite. And so it is totally suitable for daily consumption. Now, it doesn't mean you have to, but I will say this, that Kanna is also very fast acting. And most people will feel it, you know, the first time, second time they take it. For some people, it will take them a little longer because there's a priming effect that happens in their bodies where they're getting used to this plant. So we always recommend to take it continuously for 30 days straight before taking a break, if you want to, because you will see the cumulative benefits. There's also no tolerance buildup. So it's not like, oh, if you take more, you're going to suddenly need more and more. In fact, it's very much the opposite effect. The more you take it, the more regulated your nervous system becomes, the less you will need to feel the same effect. So I will share this too. When I first researched Kanna, and I was of course trying to, you know, all of all kinds of our own products when we're in product development, I didn't at that time take it 30 days continuously. But when I actually did, I noticed a huge difference because with that, there is a cumulative effect. Like I said, it really helps to regulate the nervous system. For me, I just noticed I became a lot more patient. I was much less triggered and it was beautiful. So to feel the full benefits, we still always recommend taking it for 30 days, even if you feel it in the very beginning about anything.

So I know with some different things that there's a blunting effect if you're on SSRIs or things like that. Is that the case with Kanna? Also?

I'm so glad you asked that question because this is a huge difference between SSRIs and Kanna. SSRIs really target only serotonin. As I mentioned before, Kanna has 35 different alkaloids. I couldn't even name all the receptors. I just named a few that it works on. And so, no, it actually very much has the opposite effect. It makes you more present, it helps you feel even deeper. It's not surprising for certain People and we've had this kind of customer feedback where suddenly they feel really emotional and then they feel like crying and then, oh, they feel, having gone through that, having access those pent up emotions, they actually feel a lot better. So it helps us connect to our feelings and process them. It does not dull. And so in that sense, you know, it's completely different from SSRIs, so it does not have that dulling effect.

Are there any medications that would prevent people from responding the way you would expect?

Yes, absolutely. So, for example, if you have been on some kind of amphetamine salt, let's say Adderall, for example, so your nervous system is already, you know, it needs to be reset to fully feel the effects of Kanna. So in the beginning, someone who has taken Adderall, for example, in the past might need a higher dose to begin with and then they can come back to a regular dose because the neuroreceptor just need. Neuroreceptors just need to be reset in terms of contraindications. And this is important. For example, if someone is already on a benzodiazepine or an ssri, SNRI and dri, be very careful because a lot of these pharmaceuticals already elevate your level of serotonin. And Kanna does that also. So you don't want to end up having too elevated a level of serotonin because it could end up being serotonin syndrome, which can be harmful. So we always say to people, you know, that's how it's contraindicated, do not take them together. However, I will also say that there are naturopaths out there, psychiatric therapists, functional medicine doctors who are helping people titrate off of SSRIs using Kanna. So again, always, always talk to a qualified healthcare provider, a professional. And that's, of course, we're not doctors, we can't talk about that there. But there are definitely people who are, how should I say, going to these physicians to help them actually taper off of SSRIs and to transition to other plant medicines that don't have the negative side effects.

I have a clarifying question. So when you say don't take it together, does that mean on Wednesday morning don't take your SSRI and your Kanna, or does it mean Wednesday morning you could take the Kanna and then 12 hours later you could take your SSRI? Or is it really don't take them while you're. Don't take Kanna at any point while you're on it, unless you're in the process of weaning and working with a doctor.

Because as we know, when someone has been taking SSRs, especially if they're for a long period of time to touch, it's definitely not advisable to quit cold turkey and just to stop. And there's going to be a lot of complications when that happens and can be very harmful. So that's why we always say don't take it in conjunction if you're taking it long term or short term, because in order to really regulate your serotonin levels, you need to do it gradually and you need medical supervision.

Yeah. And I'll say just from a. There's definitely a lot of substances, even like methylene blue, that you have to worry about. Serotonin syndrome. The only real concern with serotonin syndrome is, is if you're new to ssri, if you're actually you. You've been on SSRI and been stable, your serotonin is actually depleted a lot of times and you. The chance of serotonin syndrome is very, very low. Like very. I, I'm. I don't worry about. We inform people, but the chance of it is very. Is almost non. System. It's just when people are just getting on or just new to SSRIs or any other substances.

And it sounds like Your dosing is 30 milligrams. Did I hear that correctly?

Yes, it was initially, but that's changed because as I mentioned, there's a reverse tolerance effect. And now I only need like 15 and I'm perfectly happy. So it's another thing that is really interesting is it doesn't make you dependent on it and it actually has that reverse effect.

So when you talk about like, let's say somebody. You were talking about somebody with social anxiety, things like that before. And so it sounds like if they're on con, that they, they'll do better once they get like, let's say they do the 30 days or the three months or whatever it is is there and they come off it. So there's no dependence. But do they revert back to exactly where they were or is there actually some kind of fundamental change?

That's a really good question. Eventually they may. But again, if someone, let's say, has been on, you know, has been taking Kanna and has been socializing and has been opening up, I cannot predict if that person with that experience now has actually created behavioral patterns that are different from before. So that is a bigger question. Someone should definitely research that. From what I've seen after A while. It doesn't, how should I say, they do revert back to their general way of being socially. But like I said, taking it long term does have certain benefits that can fundamentally shift how you are. But again, there's no concrete scientific research that can back that up. So it depends. Like I'll give you my example personally. Right. So I was taking, and I have been taking Kanna, you know, consistently for a number of years. Maybe I'll take a break a week or so. But then, you know, I'm a very stressed out entrepreneur so it really is a great support for me. And then, you know, I'll notice when I don't take it. Let's say I've taken it now for like a year or two years and then I don't take it. I still see, I still feel the behavioral shifts. Meaning like I am more patient by, by the way, by nature I'm not a patient person. So my, I would say basic level or the. Or. Or the, the level of the base level of how I am like getting triggered or being impatient has def. Been higher. Meaning I just don't get triggered as much. I just don't. I'm not as impatient now. Do I notice when I start taking Khan again that I become more patient? Yes. Or I become more. You know what I'm saying? But there is for me at least, and I'm the experiment that I've noticed certain patterns have indeed shifted over the long term.

Does it help with pms? Asking for a friend because I don't menstruate any longer, but curious.

Yeah, that's, you know, that's another interesting question. Because Kanna is anti inflammatory. It's the way it works. It's super anti inflammatory and because it helps to calm stress and anxiety. So even, how should I say this? Because it helps to lower inflammation. It does help a bit. It's not specifically for, let's say menstrual cramps or period pain, but because it's anti inflammatory and because it ameliorates a lot of the emotional anxiety that sometimes comes up when you are premenstrual. It does support that way, if that makes sense.

Is there anything we haven't asked you that we should ask you.

Or that.

You want to make sure we cover.

Let me ask a question. Obviously there's a, there's you, you have a company and obviously you're looking at quality. When you look. Is when our listeners look for quality. Look at Kana. Is there anything that they need to be looking for that tells them Whether the product that they're looking at is either higher quality or lower quality or is there any kind of red flags. Let's say that this is not a high quality product that they shouldn't touch.

So I would say first of all, ask for COA certificates. Certificate of, you know, excuse me. And from a consumer product safety point of view, that's super important. And you can see, okay, are there like, what's the level of microbials, heavy metals, that's one thing. And then I would just ask about, you know, whether that particular brand can specify like the level of alkaloids, what's the level, what's the percentage of mesembrene, you know, more specific questions like that. But before you even do that, I would just first of all be very careful to identify whether you're buying plant or extract because that's a huge difference because the extract will have a much higher concentration. There are a lot of sellers of, of let's say the plant material that they're not actually selling. Kanna. And I don't know, you know, I think that asking for all those certifications, checking if they, if they're producing it themselves and if they have like, are they gmp, CGMP certified, that all, all is very helpful. What else? Ask them where they source it from.

Yeah, is there, is there organic, non organic or is that not really a thing?

Not really, because most of the farms, and literally I don't know any farm that you know, that grows Kanna that actually does the organic certification, they will say and stand behind like we don't use pesticides, herbicides and any growth enhancers. But again, this is South Africa and it's a different, you know, it's slightly different and eventually I hope that that can be implemented. There are right now initiatives in South Africa where people are coming together because they realize there are people who say, who say something is Khan and it's not so to have more transparency and to also have more quality assurance, there is a movement of, you know, coming together and you know, creating an organization or certification process. This is still in process, so it's not happened yet. So we'll see.

What products do you offer? You were saying you have a range. What, what do you offer?

So we offer our. We have two products at the moment that product offers line will be expanding. So we have Arcana Daily choose, which is a beautiful foundational kind of daily supplement. We always say to, to take it has, it lasts longer and it also has plants synergistically working together with Kanna like Akmela, which is really antimicrobial. Snow Lotus, which is very also very anti inflammatory and helps with circulation. It helps maintain homeostasis. Lavender and some other plants. And then we have the tincture which are drops and that has a slightly different formulation and taste. So we like to say hey, you can take both as a daily supplement. But the tincture is really great for let's say if you want to go out at night and you don't want to drink alcohol and you'd rather have something that still kind of changes your state, eases your. Any kind of social tension, takes the edge off but you won't have a hangover with. So then that's the tincture. And a tincture is a great boost because it does peak effect. It has that peak effect quickly. So it's great to use I would say in a specific occasion. So let's say right before you meditate, before you yoga to help you ground and center. It's great for let's say if you're having a date night with your partner because of its heart opening ability. And again it's I would say more targeted for occasional. For use in particular occasions. But again it's totally up to the person and how they like to work with the two different formats.

Do you take it once a day for the choose?

I do, yes.

Okay, so because you said it has like a three to six hour impact but then when it wears off there's no crash.

No there isn't. Again because it is adaptogenic because it works on so many neuroreceptors and it's not targeting a single neuroreceptor so there is not any crash. What I like to do if I'm going out with friends later, I will bring the tincture with me because I don't drink alcohol. So I'll just use it as I can dose it directly under my tongue or I'll put it in a mocktail and then the whole sort of that kanna effect gets re. Re reactivated again you can say. So that's if I have like a whole night and then you know, I want to be dancing and going out. It's really, it's really helpful that way. For me, you know, I'm pretty sensitive. So for me, you know, half a chew already like lasts all day for me.

I have a politically incorrect question. We can cut this out if this is not a correct question. But the, the there as you said, this is viewed by many indigenous people as a sacred medicine. And in my kind of diving into psychedelic medicine. One of the things that has been challenged is, I'm going to say the bastardization of sacred medicine and that it's used like cannabis right now is really been overused and not used. Used to be used ceremonially, and so is tobacco, and so is so many other things. How, what, what. What are your thoughts about that and putting it out to the rest of the world, which sounds like it's amazing, dude, bastardize the do, bastardize the plant.

So first, let me address reciprocity, because that's something we really believe in right now. Where the supplier, where we get Arcana, they do a direct profit share with the indigenous. So there is that program in place. And on the front end, we also have a relationship with local Koi and Bushman leaders to actually give back. So on that front, for example, we champion certain cultural and cultural preservation projects, like the Aboriginal Walkers. We also donate Kana plant to them. And this is why as well. I was actually in South Africa in Namibia last year, and just because I really wanted to do a deep dive and I wanted to meet with any elders or, you know, any indigenous leaders who would want to connect with me. And I learned a great deal. And Kana is a plant, even though it's. The traditional stewards have been the Koi and the Bushmen over the many years of colonialism, apartheid. Their societies are so marginalized, they've been displaced from their lands. So a lot of this traditional knowledge has been lost. And really only very few of the elders and medicine people still keep this knowledge. And so the younger people, you know, most people have forgotten about this plant. And what's been interesting is that during this trip, because we, you know, everywhere we go, we're like, sharing also, you know, what we're doing. And it's been. It's been interesting. It's actually helped to galvanize an interest, sort of a renewed interest by the indigenous in this plant. Not just because, oh, yes, you can make money from it, but wait a minute, this is part of our heritage that we should feel really proud of. So, again, I don't want to overstate this, but that we are doing as much as we can step by step. Because I was there doing direct research, because I wanted to talk to the activists as well as, you know, with a lot of organizations, especially charitable organizations, there are ones that are corrupt, there are ones that are not so corrupt. And it's really hard to tell the difference unless you find. You really get to know. Know those organizations. And what I have found is that you know, is that I connected with people who are actually doing on the ground projects where we knew exactly what they were doing, if we were giving them some khana, if we were donating, what exactly they would be doing. So that's kind of our way of supporting. And I'm still learning because I have to figure out, you know, we're still trying to figure out what is the most sustainable way to. To reciprocate and also help to, I guess, spread this, you know, traditional knowledge some more. So, you know, recently when we. Well, when I went to South Africa, we also put together a little video just to educate on Kana, because I interviewed a lot of indigenous leaders to hear from them, you know, their traditional use of this plant. And, you know, I gave this video to them. I'm like, hey, you know, and they're like, can we please share this with our communities? I said, absolutely. So they've actually been using this video to re educate and get their communities interested in this plant and get to know this plant again. So it's been a very interesting and in a way, a very, you know, it's a discovery process, but also a healing process as well. And again, I don't want to overstate this. We're just taking this a step at a time. But this is something I am very sensitive to. But in terms. Terms of traditional bastardization, there are sadly so few people who still hold this wisdom that we're trying to see how we can preserve that. So. And part of it is actually getting the medicine and getting people more familiar with this plant.

It's awesome.

That's a really, really beautiful thing, Stephanie, what you're doing.

I mean, trying to. To do what's right. I mean, the. The last thing I think I have to be very careful of. And I actually had this long discussion with some of the leaders. You know, sometimes people go in with a lot of good intentions and, you know, you don't want to create more of a mess with those good intentions. And it's so much about having that dialogue, always learning and speaking with and hearing from the local people what makes the most sense so that this becomes a partnership and not like, not a charity, if that makes sense.

Yeah, 100%. Where can people find out more about you?

Yeah, so you can come visit our site. It's oh my ka.com o h m y.com or find us on social media. It's ca empathogenics. And we're on, you know, Instagram, we're on Facebook, we're on TikTok. As well and yeah, and we would love to hear from you. And we're also doing I don't know if you wanted to share the promo code for your with your. Sure, sure.

Amazing.

Yeah. So we want to share a 15 offers order promo code code feel amazing all caps feel amazing with all of your people and community.

We'll put that in the show notes so that people could see it.

Yeah. And yeah. So yeah. So we're just excited to hear from you and thank you. All right.

Thank you.

So thank you for the promo code. We'll make sure these all get into the show notes. Thank you for being here with us for the feel freaking amazing podcast and for the listeners. Thanks for listening.

So thank you, Stephanie. Thank you guys for having me on here and just sharing the beautiful knowledge about this plant which is really amazing.

You're doing good work. Thank you.