Feel Secure in Your Relationships, with Paula Sacks

An anxious, preoccupied attachment style. They can never say no because God forbid they would offend somebody else. So they find themselves always, you know, doing things that they don't want to do.

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Hang on to your hats. Ever wonder why you struggle in your relationships? How does attachment play a role in this? In this episode, you'll learn that and much more.

We have another exciting guest today, Paula Sachs licsw, who holds a master's in clinical social work from Simmons College. She sat on the Massachusetts licensure board for social workers appointed by Duvall Patrick for six years. She's the co author of Attachment Disturbances in Treatment for Comprehensive Repair and has two upcoming books on attachment, one for new parents and one for children. Today we're going to talk about attachment, the disorders that can occur and how this plays out in your relationships. We're also going to discuss ways of identifying and improving your attachment style.

So, Paula, I know you're an attachment specialist. Let's start with what actually is attachment? Because before you, I actually never heard of what that was.

Excellent question, and let me just say a lot of people don't know what attachment is. I hear a lot of things like what is attachment parenting? What is attachment? Attachment is a style. Everybody has an attachment style. And it is set basic at the time of your relationship with your first primary caregiver, usually the mother, father, or whoever takes who spends most time with the child. And attachment is a way you are in relationships. That's what attachment is. So for instance, there were in the early 80s, there were three styles of attachment. There was secure attachment, which means that a baby with the relationship with the mother had a certain set of characteristics and the characteristics where they were able to easily be soothed. If the mother left the room, they could protest. There was a relationship that goes on. Attachment is formed in a relationship relationship. Then there was another type of attachment, which was called an anxious, preoccupied attachment. And what happened, what we saw was a relationship with the mother or the father or a primary caregiver where the child could not be soothed. They would be very much throw themselves on the ground, would have temper tantrums. They were very clingy and needy with the mother. There was all these Characteristics. And then there was a third type of attachment, which was called avoidant. And what we saw at this time in the relationship is we saw that the child would do toys and not relationships. So let's say the mother would put the child in a room and the child would play with toys and didn't really care if a stranger was in the room or the mother left the room, or they were just very content and they only did toys. And then in about 1988, Mary Maine took about 15% of these videos. At the time, it was VHS, okay? She took them and she said, and the reason why is because we had about 15% where you could not identify an ABC or baby. It was like, you know, A was anxious, preoccupied, anxious, preoccupied. The B baby was secure, and the C baby was avoidant. But 15% of these tapes had the double insecurity. They had what we call warring strategies right now. And that was called. She labeled that disorganized attachment. So basically, since 1988, we've had the fourth category, which is disorganized attachment. And that is where a person exhibits both dismissing qualities and anxious preoccupied. And what that looked like in a baby was the mother would leave the room and the child would run to the mother and be angry, but also pull away simultaneously because the mother was the frightening object. So the mother needed the baby more than anything, which is the anxious, preoccupied style. When the mother picked up the child, the child would pull back. All right. Now, when that child grows up into adulthood with this warring strategy, this is where you go into personality disorders, and this is where people go into that I hate you, I hate you, don't leave me behavior that we all know. It goes into a lot of the kind of very disorganized patterns where one minute they love you, and in a split second they hate you. All right, so this is when you go into really into the more disturbing, let's say, pathology here, because internally, that person is conflicted. And in order to treat that, it's a little bit more of a process than just, let's say, the single disturbance of an anxious preoccupied or an avoidant.

So this is how the relationship the child bonded to the parent, theoretically, or the primary caregiver, whoever the grandmother. And whether they were bonded or attached in a way that was healthy or less healthy.

Absolutely. And so the reason why I'm talking about that right now is early attachment, because attachment is set in the first 12 to 18 months of life. So if a child, let's say, is an anxious, preoccupied style, and I'm talking about the clingy, the, you know, won't leave the mother alone, you know, angry, et cetera. They grow up with that attachment style and they start manifesting these behaviors as adults. And that's what you're going to find. Anytime that a person gets into a relationship with a person, another person, your attachment style will come out in relationships, not necessarily when you're by yourself. So for instance, if you have the avoidant child, they grow up and they start manifesting characteristics as an adult, but they don't really connect with other people. They tend to be aloof, they tend to stay by themselves. They are hard to read. So even though it's set in an early time in life, it stays with you. And what I find as an attachment specialist, because I only treat adults, is I have to wait for people to go through 18 years of life before they become an adult. And then we start working on these attachment disturbances and they're called disturbances.

So what's that look like?

What that looks like is usually, all right, let's just take a case example. Someone comes into my office and they said, I can't seem to have relationships. I'm always with guys, and they break up with me. Let's say a young girl in their, let's say late 20s, early 30s. And they're like, I don't understand this. I really like this guy. But for some reason, I always attract guys that are very aloof and they don't respond to me. And she starts always second guessing herself and it starts to erode on her behavior. She doesn't understand that her needy and clinginess is pushing him further away. So that's what it looks like. It looks like that every time this person goes into a relationship, these kind of patterns are going to start playing out over and over.

So you're your own worst enemy in.

A lot of ways. You are. Because we do talk about opposites attract. So most of the time what I see is I will see someone with an anxious, preoccupied attachment style who's dating an avoidant style. And the reason why they attract is because each one possesses a little too much of what the other one lacks. All right, so the anxious, preoccupied style, they tend to be very giving and very generous and always, you know, I'll do anything. If you ask someone where they want to go to dinner, they say, I don't care. Where do you want to go to dinner? Because they're more interested in your happiness than their own. And if you ask an avoidant style where they want to go, to dinner. They're interested in where they want to go, so they have no problem telling you right up front.

So it works. It's a match.

So you have to understand the very beginning that just. That works fabulously. Until the avoidance style kind of does what they do, which is they don't really do feelings and emotions and thinking about the other person. Right. Because they think about themselves. They're a little island onto their own. And the anxious preoccupied style who constantly gives. And we all know these type of people in our lives, they're the caregivers. They're the ones that are always there. They're actually so nice that you start finding yourself kind of pulling away because you feel you're being a little bit manipulated. And they have anxious preoccupied style. Where they always get into trouble is they don't know that you can be kind because they always tip over into self sacrifice. And anytime you tip over into self sacrifice, you're walking into guilt and resentment.

Well, you enter into a pathology at that point as opposed to a healthy balance and dynamic. That's the moment where you've crossed the line.

Yes. And an anxious, preoccupied attachment style. To them, boundaries are. That means that you don't like me or. What do you mean no? They can never say no because God forbid they would offend somebody else. So they find themselves always doing things that they don't want to do.

So how many of us are actually secure?

Oh, did you say us in the secure realm as if you're secure? Exactly how many of you are in the world? Is that what you're asking?

All of us? The royal we.

The royal we. All right, well, let me just say there, depending on good news or bad news, however you want to hear this, two thirds of the population are probably secure. Wow, that's pretty.

That's shocking.

I would not have guessed that.

Okay. And then probably one third is probably going to be more on your insecure. Different countries are going to have different little ratios. Okay. But I would say for where we are, that's what you would see. But also keep in mind this isn't just black and white. It's a spectrum of how much of attachment disturbance you have. All right, so you might have a little bit of a problem where you're secure, but you have anxious preoccupied style. You tend to lean that way, but you're still basically secure. But you will get triggered. And when you get triggered, that anxious preoccupied style will come out. And then you have your straight up insecure attachment where you are very insecurely attached. And the Goal is to move you from insecure into the secure range.

So you just said that they're set at 12 to 18 months. So what do you do? How is attachment work different than, let's say, conventional therapy? Just so people understand, what is the difference? Because you're licensed as a therapist, so what's the difference?

Well, I think what the difference is, there's all different types of therapies out there, and it matches, and all of them are very good, depending on what you're treating. All right, so if you have a thought disturbance, CBT is probably the way to go. Cognitive behavior therapy. All right. What they do is they're kind of more into. They help a lot of people with anxiety and depression. That treatment is very good. Because what happens is with cbt, cognitive behavioral therapy is they look at the automatic belief systems in your mind because your thoughts create your feelings, your feelings dictate your behavior. So they're very good at tracking that. We have mentalization, which is some visualization, hypnosis, which actually helps more with the structural. The, you know, chronic self esteem problems, chronic self development, confidence. Right. We have psychodynamic, which is talk therapy, which you kind of get it out. There's all different types of therapies. Conversion disorder used to be around. They've changed that now. And so, so you kind of. Things get popular at times and things go. But there's certain treatments that you want to deal with. When you would come to an attachment specialist is when you have relationships difficulties. One of the things that we work with as attachment specialists is the disturbances. And what we want to do is we want to go in and we want to find out how this person was created. And we do this through a psychological tool which is 20 questions. And you give this test, you have to be certified to give this test, but you have to give this interview because these questions are meant to evoke your attachment style. And we cannot assess it behaviorally anymore. So now, because it wouldn't work, what happens in this hour interview that I would give somebody is I'm assessing the mind, the way the mind is processing what I'm asking for. Because if I ask, let's say, a question and someone gives me back a very short answer or blows me off or says, oh la dee da. Oh, you know, that's the way it always is. Or what do you want me to say? Well, that's telling me, based on their mind, how they're processing this interview. Because this is an interview as a relationship. All right, if someone, if I ask somebody Tell me, give me an example of such and such. And I'm chasing their thoughts all around the room. And I have no idea what the question was in the very beginning because we're lost on tangents. Well, that's telling me I'm sitting with an anxious, preoccupied mind.

And the other one's telling you you're with a dismissive.

I'm with a dismissive. Because dismissive use. They use dismissive styles, use very few words. They have canned responses. They don't collaborate. All right? An anxious, preoccupied style. They're trying to collaborate with me, but the style is leading them all over the place because their mind is just. It just. It's too fragmented. All right? If I'm sitting with someone. So for instance, what I'm listening for is. I'm listening for quality. Are you giving me what I'm asking for? Are you? I'm listening for quantity. Just exactly like what I just said. Is it too little? Is it too much? And so I'm listening for the way your mind is answering these questions. Because this plays out in relationships. Because you're having a relationship with me and I'm pulling for information. And you probably know this. If anybody's been in a relationship and you're having a fight and all of a sudden you're talking about something that happened last night, and you're both discuss. And all of a sudden one person says, and do you remember what you said to me five years ago? I still haven't gotten over that. Well, that is what we call the past is invading the present. So that means that that mind is no longer in the present. It has actually gone into the past. All right? This plays out daily. So as an attachment specialist, I go in and I listen for those things, and I Part of it. It's a lot easier when you don't have, let's say, that dual warring strategy of anxious, preoccupied, and avoidant styles in one. So if I'm sitting with avoidance style, what I want to do, or a dismissive style as an adult, I want to always focus them on the other person's feelings because that's what's missing. They deactivated their attachment style very early. The minute they get into a relationship, they deactivated their style, and then they don't ever get hurt. So that's why they're always aloof. Girls always make excuses for guys. And I always find this so fascinating because I'm like, if you find yourself making excuses for a guy, you have to look about what you're doing, because guys Are very direct. They're taught to go after what they want so you don't have to make excuses for guys. But then if you start hearing yourself making excuses for guys, then you have to take a look at the way your mind is operating because your mind is overly involved in his emotional state, and you're trying to figure it out.

So it's really about relationships.

It has to be what's created in relationships, and it manifests in relationships. But when I talk about relationships, I'm not just talking about a romantic relationship. Okay? I'm talking about a mother child relationship. We know what the five primary conditions are to have secure attachment, raising a child.

Which are.

Which are. All right. Well, the first one is. Now, keep in mind when I say these things, the child must experience this. It's important that the child experiences this. The first one is safety and protection. So it's not enough just to have a car seat in your car and have gates up and make sure that the plugs are in. That that is what we think as adults protection is. But the child must feel it internally inside. Which means that when they're scared, the parent needs to be really attuned to what's going on with that child, that they comfort that child. Because the child has no way of talking about. The second one is being seen and known, and they all kind of piggyback on each other. But the second one being seen and known is when a child has one cry, has multiple needs, but it has one cry. So you hear the mother say, I heard a child crying at the mall. I know that's my child. I know that cry. Do you know what I'm saying? That's being seen and known. That child cries. The mother goes, well, I know the child's been fed. I know that, you know, he's, you know, he's. I've changed his diaper. He must be tired. They're able to, like, really tune in to find out what that child is communicating with them. When there's misattunement, let's say, like, the mother is depressed. She's, you know, has postpartum depression. She's not doing the eye contact. She's not reading those cues. The child will not feel seen and known. Then the third one. The third one is soothing and comforting and reassuring. All right, so this is when the child gets maybe just a little bit older, but it starts at the infant stage. And that is when the child is frustrated and upset that the mother and the father or the primary caregiver can sit with that child and tolerate the child's frustrations as well. All right? And really soothe the child and reassure the child that everything is going to be okay. Now the more that a parent does this, the more internalized that parent becomes to the child. And they will learn to do that themselves. For instance, it's appropriate for a 15 month old, an 18 month old who doesn't have the verbal skills to say what they want, to throw themselves on the ground and have a temper tantrum because they're so frustrated inside, right? And so the parent will soothe them and the child will feel it. Now where you see disturbances as we see when a 55 year old woman throws herself on the ground, that's not appropriate, but that's where the internal soothing is lacked. And you see that in a lot of disturbances. The fourth one, which is my absolute favorite, it's called expressed delight. This is where you as a parent find the joys in parenthood and not the chores of parenthood. This is where your child, you rejoice in the being of the child. Not what the child does, but who the child is at all times. And you do this what I have termed love raise, where the parent sits and just loves with a loving face at the child. Where the child experiences that feeling of being so loved because they see it as a mirror on their parents face. It is so important. And this comes about because when a baby is born and for all of us that are parents, we know that moment that that child that we've anticipated, we've waited for, for nine months is put in our arms and we fall in love. I mean, I have goosebumps even just saying it. We don't love this child, we fall in love, we can't stop staring. Everything that child does is just, it's just, it's just the cutest thing in the world. We're in love and we look at that child in this in love state, we need to be doing that more because everybody wants to be looked at that way. You know, we go into a restaurant, we see honeymooners and they have that in love feeling. Well, we should be doing that across the board because that's when you feel this, this feeling valued and feeling special. And that's so key for a child. And then the fifth one is wanting the best for the child. And that's where you don't have an agenda for your child. You support the child, you are there for the child and the child internally knows that. Now whether you do that with your child to put in secure attachment with your newborn or whether you come into a relationship and you use those five primary functions of a secure relationship in your romantic relationship or in your dating or in your relationship at work. These are across the board important for securely attached people relationships. And this is what we want for our listeners.

Do you have any sort of like top three things that you could give them to say? If you're looking at functional relationships and being healthy, here are the top three things I would say you should do. Do you have anything like that?

Yes, I'm going to just, I'm going to say it up front and I talked a little bit about it. There's this thing called love rays. Love rays, like the rays of sun. Relationships are. It doesn't matter if you go to Starbucks and you get coffee. It doesn't matter if you speak to your waiter. Anytime you come in with a relationship, a dyad, two people, it is a relationship. And if you look at somebody with loving eyes, with a beautiful expression on your face of just kindness, you will see how other people respond back. All right. Because that's what you want to do. You want to give people that. You will see a change because it's a felt sense of feeling valued. And everybody wants to feel valued. So that one is one thing that I would do. Another pearl of wisdom that I love is life is perspective. Pay attention to how you see the world because how you see the world is a thought and that will create the feeling that you have with the world or people and that will be your behavior. So I would say that one. And then I would also say which is the word no is not a bad thing. No means I love you. And keep that in mind. So those are my three pearls of wisdom.

It's wonderful.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.

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