Food Freedom and Life Boundaries, with Melissa Urban

Hello and welcome back to another episode of Live like youe Matter, the five Journeys podcast. I'm Wendy Trubo, this is Ed Levitan and our guest today is Melissa Urban. So hold on to your seats. Melissa Urban is CEO of the Whole30 and an authority on helping people create lifelong healthy habits. She is a six time New York Times best selling author, including the number one best selling the Whole 30, and has been featured by People, Good Morning America, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, Forbes and cnbc.

And she's nice.

She lives with her husband, son and a poodle named Henry in Salt Lake City, Utah. Melissa, thanks for being here. I'm so excited. I'm going to try to not fangirl too much.

I'm excited to talk to both of you. Thanks so much, Wendy.

Yeah, thanks for being here. This is great.

Yeah, no, it's super exciting because whole 30 for us is like bee's knees. Yeah, that's the start. So we have a lot of questions and you're writing a new book, it's coming out soon, right? Yes, we.

Book of boundaries.

Yeah, yeah. So we're going to have a lot of questions on boundaries and we thought we'd start out with just. Can you give us a little bit of an origin story of like the Long Winding Road?

How'd you get here?

Yeah, I mean my story starts in a maybe perhaps unexpected place which is really my health and fitness journey began in recovery for my drug addiction. So I was addicted for five years to a large variety of drugs. And when I came out of recovery the second time, I realized that I really had to change everything about my life if I was going to maintain my recovery. That led me to fitness and nutrition and diving into eating better and self experimentation which in 2009 is what led me to the Whole30. It started off as a two person self experiment and has blossomed over the last 13 years into this wildly popular 30 day self experiment designed to help people identify food sensitivities, improve their habits and change their emotional relationship with food. And then through the whole 30, of course I started helping people set and hold boundaries around alcohol and break room donuts and, you know, pizza at birthday parties. Which of course led to helping them say no to their pushy mother in law and nosy neighbor and toxic coworker.

And that's how many of them that's never to happen. What are you talking about?

So yeah, that's the transition essentially in a nutshell.

Cool.

Thanks for your generosity in sharing that.

Yeah, of course. I, I Talk about my recovery a lot because it's so integral to everything I've done through whole 30. And it's really integral to my boundaries journey as well. The first boundary I ever set was in recovery, so it really plays a pivotal role in my story.

Did you feel like drugs were a way to self medicate how your body felt?

Drugs were a way to remove myself from my body after experiencing sexual abuse when I was 16. Yes, I was definitely looking for ways to escape my lived experience and my physical body. And drugs worked better than anything else. I tried and I tried a lot of things, but it wasn't until I found drugs that I was like, oh, this is the way that I can, like really escape. And then of course, that turned into a problem in and of itself on top of the abuse and the trauma that I had to process. Yeah.

And then how did you make the leap to food? Because now that you're through it, it makes a lot of sense. But at the outset, if you said to your old self, you need to focus on food, you'd be like, wait, what? No.

Yeah, yeah. You know, when I came out of recovery the second time after a relapse, I realized that I had to become the healthy person with healthy habits that I wanted to be. I adopted a growth mindset that I didn't see myself as a healthy person with healthy habits right now because I was literally one day out of rehab. But I had to show up as if I was that person. So I started asking myself, what would a healthy person with healthy habits do? I started going to bed earlier. I started waking up early and going to the gym five mornings a week. And of course I started paying attention to what I ate because that's what a healthy person would do. And, you know, of course it started off with perhaps some less healthy choices. I'm certain that I used food and exercise as almost a form of restriction or punishment for a little while in the early days of recovery. But I'm happy to say that that really self modulated very quickly and then became a very healthy and integral practice to my entire, you know, recovery.

So was that. I always have this question because, like, obviously you had this major experience. First you were, you know, trauma, but then you had the drug addiction, then you, the rehab. Was that enough or to change your habits? Or did you have a coach? Did you have somebody to talk to? Like, how was it day to day? How'd that play out? Because I can say, I'm gonna stop eating X. And then two days later, I'm Gonna pick it back up or the next day. So was it traumatic enough to be off drugs or on drugs or what was that look like?

It looked like a ton of therapy. So much therapy. I did not go the traditional AA or NA route. I had done that in my first recovery practice and I found I struggled to really connect with the, just the groundwork and the function and the structure of that program. It's so helpful for so many, but it was not my path. What I did the second time around was I did a deep dive with a therapist that I found who was so willing to call me on my BS and so willing to kind of walk with me through the journey of unpacking my trauma and how it was showing up and how, you know, all of the ways that my trauma had affected me on top of doing a lot of my own self work. So it was, you know, the physical work of changing and healing my, my physical body through exercise and sleep and nutrition. It was reading as many self help books as I could get my hands on and really trying to adopt different practices from each. But I did have a lot of help and a lot of, you know, from friends, from family and mostly through therapy. That was the practice I found the most helpful.

What were you working on, like to support yourself as you went through this process?

Honestly, I can look back now and say it was boundaries. I didn't know that that's what I was doing then. All I knew was that I had to create as much distance between myself and the drugs as possible because the first time around I didn't do that. I only set one tenuous boundary with myself that I would try not to use. And it's no surprise that that was not enough to keep me in recovery this time around. I started setting boundaries with friends. You can't be, you can't invite me if you know that people are going to be using drugs there. You can't ever bring pot or any drugs into my home. You can't ever offer them to me. If you cannot respect that we cannot maintain this relationship. I started setting boundaries with myself. Not just around I won't use drugs, but around I am going to start going to bed earlier because I know that that's going to give me the mental willpower and the resilience to face the next day successfully. I am going to keep showing up to therapy even though it's really hard because I know that that's the path through. It turns out that boundaries were what I was missing the first time and boundaries allowed me to Expand my life so much more than I ever imagined in recovery the second time because they gave me a sense of safety, they gave me a sense of trust, they rebuilt my self worth and my values so that I could tell myself and really believe that my needs were worthy and I was worthy of asking for those needs to be met and taking whatever action I needed to to keep myself safe and healthy. If the other person proved that they were unable or unwilling to meet those needs. Right.

It's like telling your 16 year old self no really does mean no.

Yeah, it does. And it felt very safe and very protective at the time. And looking back now, it's so easy to see it. But at the time all I knew was that I was creating the distance I needed to keep myself safe.

So how many friends did you. Or quote unquote friends, I guess, did you lose? Was it a majority?

I don't think she lost them. I think she might have jettisoned them or jettisoned or.

Yes, misplaced forever ago.

Yeah, I mean it became very, very apparent very quickly those who were incapable of meeting my needs and they were incapable because they themselves were on drugs and addicted or drinking too much and were simply incapable of respecting my needs. And it was a really easy and fast path to just cutting those people out of my life. With other friends, we had to figure out a new way to engage because they did still smoke pot recreationally and they did still like going out for drinks. And we had to find another way to stay connected. That still kept me safe but kept the relationship healthy. And I managed to sustain some of those friendships even until today we're talking about 22 years. So there was a calling, but I was really proud of myself for that because it was yet again proof that my needs were worth taking care of.

So I have a question. We introduced you and you. How many bestsellers now? Five.

Six.

Six?

Six. Sorry, dude, you like two. So you've been very successful, right? By many standards. How do you stay away from temptation? Because that's it. When you don't have a lot, it's relatively easy. But then when you have a lot and you have a lot and you want to look a certain way and you're part of a certain lifestyle and then you get into certain, you're in the crowd and crowds, yeah, there's a lot more temptation and it's different.

So I. Right now that is not an issue whatsoever. I'm 22 years into my recovery. I am not the same person. I would not consider myself still like a recovering Addict I am recovered. But back then, you know, I had to automate some of my boundaries. So sometimes it meant putting things in place such that, like, not keeping friends around that I knew might either, I don't know, be tempted to offer or that not keeping friends around that I knew I could talk into giving me drugs if I really tried. I had to let those people go. And that was a way of automating my boundaries, such that if I did feel temptation, I had these layers of protection built in so that I wasn't just relying on, like, holding on by my fingernails and willpower, you know, it was having regularly scheduled therapy sessions. It was thinking about not just current me, but future me, and really thinking about not just what's going to happen in the moment if I say yes to this thing, but what are the risks long term for this person that I want to become. So I tried to build in as many margins and buffers as possible so that if I was faced with temptation, I. I had these layers of things that I needed to get through. And by the time I got through one or two or maybe even three layers, I was now in a solid enough place that I could easily resist that temptation. For me, that was the key.

How about now, though? You know, if you're out? I actually don't know your dietary restrictions, but I have celiac, so I eat nothing unless I can trace pretty much from start to finish because I get so sick.

She eats nothing.

I really. No, I eat lots, but I touch it first, right? I have to make it. And so for me, it's not about temptation, it's just about I want to perform and operate at a high level. So I don't eat that because that makes me not perform well and feel cruddy and my brain doesn't work. So not knowing if you have any specific allergies, I think the question you're getting at is now moving in the circles you're moving in. Are there temptations around food, alcohol, sugar that you come up against, and how do you dance with them now?

So there aren't. For me, in this moment, I don't have any dietary restrictions that are so serious because of health reasons. Any restrictions I have are because I know they don't make me feel my best. And those boundaries are very flexible in that if I don't have anything big coming up and it's my mom's chocolate chip cookies, the gluten is going to be totally worth it. And if I know I have media coming up and I can't Afford the brain fog or the breakouts, they're not worth it. I think an important part of the practice though is doing that idea of like a reset, which is not a medical or scientific term, but it's really how I think about the whole 30, which is it's very hard to say no to something or to moderate something that you feel as if you have an unhealthy relationship with. And where that food or beverage is the way it is designed, making you over consume these foods and beverages, the super normally stimulating, calorie dense, nutrient poor foods and alcohol, they are designed to make you over consume and crave them. And I think a program like the whole 30, in which you do a 30 day elimination of all of these potentially problematic foods all at once, can be incredibly helpful in leveling your playing field, helping you realize how good you really can feel. Because I think many of us don't realize how poorly we are feeling until we start to feel better. And they help reset our, you know, our taste buds, give us alternative behaviors for satisfying cravings or negative emotions or feeling lonely or anxious. They help us reset our habits such that when we do come back around, we're now approaching these temptations from a very different place. We're far more centered, far more grounded. We've looked inward for the last 30 days instead of looking outward for that validation or reward or self soothing. And I think that's a very powerful place to begin this examination of, okay, what are my triggers and how can I approach them in a way that is flexible but also still serves me?

So how would. So I'm just thinking of our listeners and maybe myself also, but maybe not.

Asking for a friend is always hypothetically speaking, of course.

So what are. So reset is amazing. I love resets. I've done fasts, countless fasts, and I can't wait till like I have a steamed cabbage as a first. Like, I can't wait. It's like the most amazing taste. And then we get into weeks, months later. Want that cookie? Want that this? Want that this what? When do we know first when to reset? Like, what are some things that tell us, okay, it's time for another reset? And then what are some boundaries that we can put around that can help, like kind of give us clues?

Yes. I love this, I love this question. So first of all, when the whole 30 is over, we don't just dump you off on day 31 and say like, good luck, have fun with the rest of your life. That's what a lot of weight loss and crash and fad diets do, but we don't do that. Of course. There's a very structured reintroduction program, so you eliminate reintroduce and compare. And then after that, there's an entire program. And one of those books that you referenced is all about life after your whole 30 and how to take what you've learned on the program and turn it into a sustainable diet for you according to your definition of health. And the principal tenets of the program that the book is called. Food Freedom Forever is essentially this conscientious practice to eating things that may or may not serve you. Maybe it's the dairy for me that I know for my whole 30 is gonna make my stomach bloat. It's gonna make it a little uncomfortable and might make me, you know, a little. My allergies a little worse for the next day or two. And employing a pause and asking myself, first of all, is it worth it? Is it worth it? How is this food going to impact me? I now know how it's going to impact me, because I've done a whole 30, and now I can say, is it worth it? Is this moment special enough? Is it delicious enough? Is my context such that I can afford to walk around with a stuffy nose and a bloated belly for the next day because this ice cream is so delicious, or I really want to celebrate it, or whatever that reason is? Is it worth it? And then the second question is, do I want it? And I think so often we fail to pause and ask ourselves, do I really want this thing? Is this. This ice cream sitting in front of me what I really want? Or am I bored? Am I lonely? Am I craving a connection? Am I anxious about something? I don't want the ice cream. I want something else. And the ice cream is a proxy for that. And let me identify that, not eat it, because it's not going to serve me and it's not actually what I want. And think about what I could feed myself that serves me better. And it is a very conscientious practice that requires pauses and requires commitment. But like with any practice, the more you do it, the more automatic it becomes. So that's the food freedom part, where I'm now asking myself every time I eat or drink something that may or may not be worth it, is it worth it? Do I want it? And if for some reason a holiday or a vacation or an incredibly stressful life event throws me off my healthy eating game to the point where I can no longer effectively make those good decisions for myself, because I'm too stressed, I'm stupid, I'm too overwhelmed, or I've grandfathered so many things in now my cravings are back and I don't feel good. The Whole 30 is always there. You can always come back and do another 30 days to sort of reset again. But I encourage people not to use the whole 30 like a trampoline. It's a safety net, not something that you should be bouncing into and then bouncing off of, like yoloing with your face, you know, full of donuts, and then bouncing back to the whole 30. The key is really working that conscientious food freedom plan in between.

Yeah, yeah. Now, every time you were saying, do I want it? I was thinking, breathe.

Yes.

Take a breath as like a pause.

Interrupting the automaticity of food before you look.

Breathe. And then ask those questions. I don't know. But that's just.

No, that's one of the strategies in Food Freedom Forever is a way to reset. We can get very anxious and our nervous system can become very amped in the face of attempting food, especially if we're in social situations. So taking a breath or saying, not right now, but, like, give me. Not right now, but maybe in a minute or two buys you the time and space to be able to consider those questions without the pressure of this, like, thing being right there in the moment, feeling like you have to say yes or no.

I'm a huge fan of guarding your blind spot and your backside. And so I always. You know, we do a lot of work with people who are in the process of altering the way they eat. And I never say to them, you're on a diet because that implies temporary and I just despise the word. So it's a program and it's a change in lifestyle. But I have some food rules that I think we should talk about. So one, never go to a party hungry, because if you're hungry, you're gonna make bad choices. You're hungry. Bring a buddy. Bring some. Like, I will. I might try to be nice and be like, oh, well, it's gluten free and okay, I'll try a bite. And my husband's like, over my dead body are you gonna try a bite? I have to deal with you. So bring a buddy who is not as nice as you are and might have your back. And then always bring something that you can eat that makes you feel fulfilled and cared for and included. And bring enough to share so that people aren't like, what are you eating? Why am I left Out. Those are my food rules.

I think those are really smart strategies. And if you can't bring a buddy, you can bring a boundary, which is, I will not eat foods that I know are not going to make me feel good. And having that boundary with yourself, that then allows you to clearly but kindly communicate that boundary to someone else. Thank you so much. That looks delicious, but I'm good. Or no. Or just a simple no, thank you, Right? No, thank you. Or if someone's pushing, believe me, I would love to eat it, but gluten and I are not friends. So setting that boundary with yourself first, then allows you to have the boundary more present and more organic to share in social situations.

Yeah, I always encourage people just blame me. Just say, I'm seeing this new doctor and she said, I can't eat it. And I promised her I'd take it on for tonight.

Yeah, yeah, that works.

My favorite thing at the dinner table is to say, look at your own plate. Because we don't comment on other people's plate, what they're eating, what they're not eating. Why are they eating it? Why are they not eating? It's really not anyone's business.

Correct. I don't have a lot of food rules for myself, but one of my rules is I don't talk about food over food. So if someone wants to talk about what, you know, why you're not eating this thing, or why aren't you drinking tonight, or what's that crazy diet you're on? Again, my rule is, oh, I don't talk. I don't like to talk about food over food. Let's just enjoy the dinner, and if you have some questions, I'll totally talk to you later. I'm doing this really fun thing. Happy to share it, you know, some other time. But that can help reduce defensiveness with people for sure.

Why is it that people get so defensive around this? It's like, I don't feel good when I eat that. So why are you pushing me to eat that?

Because I gave my love into this food. I poured all my love, Effy.

I mean, definitely sometimes it's that I think food is third only to, like, politics and religion in terms of really touchy subjects to talk about. And I think what happens is that you can make people feel bad about what they're doing just by doing what you do. It's almost like by making a food choice or an alcohol choice for yourself, they perceive it like you holding up a mirror to their own behaviors. And if they look in that mirror and they don't love what they see when it comes to their habits, their emotional relationship with food, the things that they know that they're doing that aren't serving them. Just watching you do that for yourself can feel really threatening and can make them feel really defensive. You know, if you're talking about a friend group, they might worry that if you've always bonded over pancakes or dessert or wine, will you still have enough in common or will you still want to be friends if you no longer engage in that behavior? For a lot of people, especially our parents, food was love. And if you reject their food, they take it almost as a rejection of themselves or a rejection of their love. And you have to sort of redefine as a family unit what it means to stay connected, even if you are not eating their chocolate chip cookies or their famous lasagna. So there are a lot of reasons. Food is not just food. It's emotional, it's cultural, it's familial, it's very sensitive. And so I think we have to think about that when we are in social situations trying to make the best health choices for ourselves.

I think it outranks politics, actually. No, religion. I think it outranks religion, politics. I think it's that order.

Yeah. Because we all eat. Yeah.

But also, like, you were talking about outranking, and I was, for some reason think going into addiction in terms of how do you create a boundary around sugar addiction? Because a lot of us are addicted to sugar.

No, it's not a boundary. Well, I mean, I think there's two kinds of people. I think. I don't know any of these people, but some people are good with infrequent. You might be one of them, actually. Some people are good with infrequent excursions. And then there's people like me who have infrequent excursions that turn into a way of life. So I've decided I'm 51 and a half. I've decided I'm an all or nothing kind of girl, because that's the only boundary that I've been able to set that works. Because I don't have the ability. For me, it's like this greased slide. And to have one piece, I'm down at the bottom.

Yeah, you're an abstainer. You're a famous abstainer. And some people are moderators. Some people actually do better if they can have just a little. It makes them feel like you're taking something away from them. And other people do much better with just black or white on or off, I'm just never going to eat that again. And that, and each of those feels like self care to that particular person. So I think knowing yourself and knowing your tendency. Gretchen Rubin has a great book called the four Tendencies that talks about abstainers versus moderators and your tendency. When it comes to how you respond to internal and external expectations, how a rebel would decide, you know, would sort of talk to themselves about their sugar habit or their sugar addiction would look very different than someone who is an obliger or a people pleaser. So I think knowing your tendency and knowing your personality can be really helpful. Again, I'll go back to the idea of doing a reset where you eliminate all forms of added sugar for 30 days. Really can do a huge number on resetting your taste buds and helping you, you know, adjust for cravings and reset your habits. If you're very used to eating dessert after every meal or feeling like your meal isn't completely complete unless you have something sweet, a whole 30 can be incredibly effective. And then I think you have to employ the strategy that works the best for you. Sometimes complete avoidance is. Adds more stress than it would take away. So if you find yourself, you know, out in social situations inspecting every little piece of food, wondering if there's added sugar in the form of some orange juice or in the form of some honey, that may be adding more stress than just eating the thing, enjoying it, and saying, I'm going to have one and not, you know, worry about it or not think about it. So, and I think the conversation also has to come back around to sort of removing any sort of morality or judgment around food. No food is good or bad. You are not good or bad based on what you eat. Some things serve you better than others. And recognizing that can be really impactful. Saying no to things not out of diet, culture or fear, but because from a place of self care, you know, this is not serving, you can be really powerful. There are a lot of things we could talk about in terms of self boundaries around foods like sugar or drinking. But I think all of those, you know, can come into play.

Doesn't it always feel like the confessional booth? No, they're sitting, bless me, doctor, I ate sugar, dairy and gluten. I'm like, okay, well I'm not your priest and you're not a bad person. And there's no cheating in my world, you know, like, I cheated on my diet. I'm like, you didn't cheat on anything. You just ate something that didn't work.

For you?

Yes. It's a learning experience too. Right? Okay. So you. We talk to people on food freedom and they say, okay, I thought it would be worth it, and it wasn't. So I failed. You did not fail. That's part of the experience, that's part of the experiment, is you've got to test your hypothesis. I thought this was going to be worth it. Guess what? It wasn't. Cool. I'm going to take that information with me the next time this happens, and I'm going to make a different choice or I'm going to at least remember this context when I'm making that decision. So it's not a failure at all. It's an incredible opportunity to just expand upon the breadth and depth of your knowledge around how foods work for you.

Yeah. It's also part of being human. Right. To be human is to not to quote, unquote, fail. And that's part of the life experience. But you're bringing up a subject that I like to talk about because people I don't think pay enough attention to, which is our use of words and language. Because if food is good or bad, you are being good or bad if you eat it or you don't eat it. And it's a matter of language. If you just change the language to, is this food? Does this food serve me or does this food not serve me?

Do I feel good when I eat it?

That completely changes. It's not about being good or bad or being a good little boy or bad little boy. It's just about, is this serving me? And maybe it is and maybe it's not, and maybe it serves me today, not tomorrow, or the other way around. But it's not a judgment. There's no morality. And if you take the morality out of changes your mind, it's the same food, similar ideas, thoughts in the brain, but it just changes the words, changes everything.

Yes.

Thank you.

I could not agree more with that sentiment. There's a lot of unlearning that we all have to do. I grew up with my aunts and cousins around the dining room table at holidays saying things like, this pie is going to go straight to my thighs, or, oh, you're being so good today by saying no to a second cookie. Or I'm saving my calories for wine. That was a big one in my family. And I had to unlearn all of that. I'm still unlearning all of that. But, yes, there are no good foods or bad foods. You know, watching language, language really does matter. It's important how we talk about ourselves, how we talk about our food, especially in the presence of kids who are so impressionable. And I think it can make a huge difference. If you notice yourself saying, oh, I'm going to eat that. I'm going to eat clean today. Oh, excuse me. No, I'm going to eat in a way that I know serves me today because I want to have really good energy and really do a great job on that project later on today. I think it's a hugely important shift.

It shifts the goals, too. Right. It's not about being good. It's about performing at the peak and making the difference you want to make and being able to bring yourself to the world because you feel well enough to do it. So you have to eat. In a way, it's essentially feeding your body to be a peak contributor.

Yeah, I love the phrase. I love the phrase that Ed just said, which is, does this serve me? Because that is so broad. Because here's the thing. The giant bowl of ice cream that I'm about to conserve, that I'm about to consume serves me because it is summer and I am enjoying it with my kiddo and my family. We're all sharing the boys bowl. And even though it's going to make me feel like crap for the next two hours, it is, in this moment, in this context, still serving me. And I think that is important to acknowledge, too.

Melissa, I have a question, because every. I mean, I feel like I'm talking to myself, right? Like everything that you say is what we say, and we're totally in agreement. And then we go outside this bubble, and hypothetically speaking, we might have people at our dinner table whose views might not agree with this. So how do you navigate this? You know, you're sitting at the dinner table with the people, saving their calories for wine, concerned that it's going to their hips, looking at other people's plates. How do you navigate that? You know, what are the down to the nitty gritty of what are you saying to that person to get them off your son's back when they're bothering him about what he's eating, not eating, or how much?

Yes. So it's important to note that a boundary is not about telling someone else what to do. I can't make my cousin stop talking about their diets, their weight loss, their thighs, their calories. I cannot control what they choose to talk about. What I can control is what I subject myself to, the conversations that I choose to participate in or receive or on behalf of my kids, the conversations that I allow them to be a part of or subjected to. So maybe before the next event, you can have a conversation with your family or your mom or whoever happens to be sort of the one instigating these, saying, hey, mom, I just want to make you aware we're really trying to teach my kiddos a healthy way to relate with food. And part of doing that is not talking about what's on each other's plates, not talking about our bodies or not talking about weight loss or dieting over food. I'm going to ask, when we're at the table that we just not talk about those subjects. Is that something that you can agree to? So notice you're not saying, don't think about those things, don't talk about those things in your own life. What you are saying is, this is a healthy limit that I have for myself and my family. Will you agree to meet me in this limit so that our relationship can be healthy and trusting and respectful and work for both of us? If they say yes and in the moment forget, then you can say, oops, Grandma. Remember, we trust Tommy to know when he's full. Buddy, if you're full, then you can be excused. So it's a gentle correction in the moment of I'm going to interrupt you. This isn't a conversation that we're going to have. And then you excuse. If you find that the conversation persists beyond that point, which is somewhat rude, then you can say, excuse me, this is not a conversation that we want to have around food. The kids and I are going for a walk. And you physically remove yourself from the situation because that is the expression of your boundary.

You vote with your feet.

You vote with your feet. Exactly. So I offer boundaries in three different kind of categories, green, yellow and red, based on the level of threat. Your green boundary is the gentlest language. It's so kind. It's assuming they didn't realize that you had a limit and they want to meet it. If you express it, the red is this behavior has escalated. They have proven unwilling or unable to respect my limits and now I'm going to take the action that I need to keep myself safe and healthy.

You're highlighting permission, which I think a lot of women don't always give themselves permission to be fully self expressed and vote with their feet. Right. Like, how many women do you talk to who are like, oh, I could never say that. And as you were talking, I was like, I would feel uncomfortable getting up and walking away because. But it really does Underscore the level to which sometimes I will put up with what doesn't work for me to maintain the peace.

Yes. So we women have been conditioned by the patriarchy and stereotypically rigid gender roles and diet, culture, and very often religious influences to be small, to be compliant, to not have needs, and if we do, to not vocalize them, and to make sure that everybody else needs and comfort come before our own, especially when we're moms. And yes, I will admit that advocating for yourself and setting boundaries is uncomfortable, but what you are already doing is also uncomfortable. Sitting there at the table, holding your tongue, knowing that this behavior is harming you, harming your kids, not saying anything or speaking up, trying to do damage control after the fact, being resentful, dreading these interactions, having anxiety around them, going home and thinking about all of the. The things that you could have said or should have said and didn't say, and beating yourself up about it. That is also uncomfortable. And one of these uncomfortable paths leads to a change in the relationship that can make everything easier, freer, more trusting, more respectful, healthier. And the other path just gets you more of the same. So. So you're going to be uncomfortable.

Yeah.

Either way, you're going to be uncomfortable. But choose your discomfort. And one path actually leads you to freedom.

A breakthrough.

Yeah.

So tell people where they can find out or where they can buy your book. What's the title? And where they can find out more about you.

Yeah, I have a. I just got my very first copy, advanced copy, and so it's right here. It's called the Book of Boundaries. It's very pretty, sweet. And it's really about learning how to set the limits that will set you free in all of your relationships. And much like you just said, it's so hard to know what to say. I wanted to include scripts. There are over 130 scripts with green, yellow, red options in the book so that you know exactly what to say in these situations to set and hold the boundaries that you need. So it's available everywhere books are sold. It's called the Book of Boundaries. You can see more at my website, which is melissayou.com or follow me on Instagram Elissayu or TikTok Elissau. So, yeah, I'm on all of those places talking all things boundaries.

You basically provided recipes for conversation, essentially.

Ooh, I love the way you put that. I may steal that with proper credit to you, of course, but yes, that's exactly what I've done.

Yeah.

That's beautiful.

Thank you because you have the recipes in, like, Whole 30, and now you have recipes for boundaries.

I know. That's really good. My publicist is going to love that.

Yeah, they can send me the bill. Okay, tell me, is there anything we should. Should have asked you that we didn't ask you that? You want to make sure you communicate with our audience?

Oh, that's such a good question. I think that one thing that I want to impart is the idea that your needs are valid, that you are worthy of having your perfectly reasonable limits met, and that if you don't share them clearly. I'm not talking about hinting or eye rolling or laughing uncomfortably or making people guests or hoping they get your vibe. If you don't speak them clearly and kindly, you don't stand a chance of having your needs met. So that's what I want you to believe. Know that your needs are worthy. Know that you're worthy of having them met. And now have the words to know exactly what to say in those situations to set the limits that will set you free.

Awesome.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thanks for having me.

No, thank you for being here. And thanks to the listeners. This is another episode of the Five Journeys podcast Live. Like you matter. Our guest today was Melissa Urban. And as mentioned, the Book of Boundaries is out and you can buy it. Go get a copy today.