Food Freedom and Life Boundaries, with Melissa Urban

For a lot of people, especially our parents, food was love. And if you reject their food, they take it almost as a rejection of themselves or a rejection of their love. And so I think we have to think about that when we are in social situations trying to make the best health choices for ourselves.

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Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Five Journeys podcast, Live like youe Matter. I'm Wendy Trubo. This is Ed Levitan and our guest today is Melissa Urban. So hold onto your seats. Melissa Urban is CEO of the Whole30 and an authority on helping people create lifelong healthy habits. She is a six time New York Times bestselling author, including the number one bestselling the Whole 30, and has been featured by People, Good Morning America, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, Forbes and cnbc.

And she's nice.

She lives with her husband, son and a poodle named Henry in Salt Lake City, Utah. Melissa, thanks for being here. I'm so excited. I'm going to try to not fangirl too much.

I am excited to, to both of you. Thanks so much. Wendy.

Yeah, thanks for being here. This is great.

Yeah, no, it's super exciting because whole 30 for us is like bees knees. Yeah, like that, that's the start. So we have like a lot of questions on boundaries and we thought we'd start out with just can you give us like a little bit of an origin story of like the Long Winding Road?

Yeah, I mean my story starts in a maybe, perhaps unexpected place which is really my health and fitness journey began in recovery for my drug addiction. So I was addict for five years to a large variety of drugs. And when I came out of recovery the second time, I realized that I really had to change everything about my life if I was going to maintain my recovery. It turns out that boundaries were what I was missing the first time. And boundaries allowed me to expand my life so much more than I ever imagined in recovery the second time because they gave me a sense of safety, they gave me a sense of trust, they rebuilt my self worth and my values so that I could tell myself and really believe that my needs were worthy and I was worthy of asking for Those needs to be met and taking whatever action I needed to to keep myself safe and healthy if the other person proved that they were unable or unwilling to meet those needs. Right.

It's like telling your 16 year old self no really does mean no.

Yeah, it does. And it felt very safe and very protective at the time. And looking back now, it's so easy to see it. But at the time all I knew was that I was creating the distance I needed to keep myself safe.

So I have a question. We introduced you and you. How many bestsellers now? Five.

Six.

Six.

Six. Sorry dude, you like so many. So you've been very successful, right? By many standards. How do you stay away from temptation? Because when you don't have a lot, it's relatively easy. But then when you have a lot and you have a lot of, and you want to look a certain way and you're part of a certain lifestyle and then you get into certain, you're in the crowd and crowds, there's a lot more temptation and it's different.

So I, right now that is not an issue whatsoever. I'm 22 years into my recovery. I am not the same person. I would not consider myself still like a recovering addict. I am recovered, but back then I had to automate some of my boundaries.

So.

So sometimes it meant putting things in place such that like not keeping friends around that I knew might either, I don't know, be tempted to offer or that not keeping friends around that I knew I could talk into giving me drugs if I really tried. I had to let those people go. And that was a way of automating my boundaries. Such that if I did feel temptation, I had these layers of protection built in so that I wasn't just relying on, like holding on by my fingernails and willpower, you know, it was having regularly scheduled therapy sessions. It was thinking about not just current me, but future me. And really thinking about not just what's going to happen in the moment if I say yes to this thing, but what are the risks long term for this person that I want to become. So I tried to build in as many margins and buffers as possible so that if I was faced with temptation, I had these layers of things that I needed to get through. And by the time I got through one or two or maybe even three layers, I. I was now in a solid enough place that I could easily resist that temptation. For me, that was the key.

How about now though? You know, if you're out, I actually don't know your dietary restrictions, but I have Celiac. So I eat nothing unless I can trace pretty much from start to finish because I get so sick.

She eats nothing.

I really. No, I eat lots, but I touch it first, right? I have to make it. And so for me, it's not about temptation, it's just about I want to perform and operate at a high level. So I don't eat that because that makes me not perform well and feel cruddy and my brain doesn't work. So not knowing if you have any specific allergies, I think the question you're getting it is now moving in the circles you're moving in. Are there temptations around food, alcohol, sugar that you come up against, and how do you dance with them now?

So there aren't. For me, in this moment, I don't have any dietary restrictions that are so serious because of health reasons. Any restrictions I have are because I know they don't make me feel my best. And those boundaries are very flexible in that if I don't have anything big coming up and it's my mom's chocolate chip cookies, the gluten's gonna be totally worth it. And if I know I have media coming up and I can't afford the brain fog or the breakouts, they're not worth it. I think an important part of the practice though is doing that idea of like a reset, which is not a medical or scientific term, but it's really how I think about the whole 30, which is it's very hard to say no to something or to moderate something that you feel as if you have an unhealthy relationship with and where that food or beverage is. The way it is designed, making you over consume these foods and beverages. The super normally stimulating, calorie dense, nutrient poor foods and alcohol, they are designed to make you over consume and crave them. And I think a program like the whole 30, in which you do a 30 day elimination of all of these potentially problematic foods all at once, can be incredibly helpful in leveling your playing field, helping you realize how good you really can feel. Because I think many of us don't realize how poorly we are feeling until we start to feel better. And they help reset our, you know, our taste buds, give us alternative behaviors for satisfying cravings or negative emotions or feeling lonely or anxious. They help us reset our habits such that when we do come back around, we're now approaching these temptations from a very different place. We're far more centered, far more grounded. We've looked inward for the last 30 days instead of looking outward for that validation or reward or self soothing. And I think that's a very powerful place to begin this examination of. Okay, what are my triggers and how can I approach them in a way that is flexible but also still serves me?

How do you create a boundary around sugar addiction? Because a lot of us are addicted to sugar.

I think there's two kinds of people. I think I don't know any of these people. But some people are good with infrequent. You might be one of them. Actually some people are good with infrequent excursions. And then there's people like me who have infrequent excursions that turn into a way of life. So I've decided I'm 51 and a half. I've decided I'm an all or nothing kind of girl because that's the only boundary that I've been able to set that works. Because I don't have the ability. For me it's like this greased slide and to have one piece, I'm down at the bottom.

Yeah, you're an abstainer. You're a famous abstainer. And some people are moderators. Some people actually do better if they can have just a little. It makes them feel like you're not taking something away from them. And other people do much better with just black or white on or off. I'm just never going to eat that again. And that and each of those feels like self care to that particular person. So I think knowing yourself and knowing your tendency. Gretchen Rub has a great book called the four tendencies that talks about abstainers versus moderators and your tendency. When it comes to how you respond to internal and external expectations. How a rebel would just, you know, would sort of talk to themselves about their sugar habit or their sugar addiction would look very different than someone who is an obliger or a people pleaser. So I think knowing your tendency and knowing your personality can be really helpful. Again, I'll go back to the idea of doing a reset where you eliminate all forms of added sugar for 30 days. Really can do a huge number on resetting your taste buds and helping you, you know, adjust for cravings and reset your habits. If you're very used to eating dessert after every meal or feeling like your meal isn't complete unless you have something sweet, a whole 30 can be incredibly effective. And then I think you have to employ the strategy that works the best for you. Sometimes complete avoidance is adds more stress then it would take away. So if you find yourself, you know, out in social situations Inspecting every little piece of food, wondering if there's added sugar in the form of some orange juice or in the form of some honey. That may be adding more stress than just eating the thing, enjoying it, and saying, I'm going to have one and not, you know, worry about it or not think about it. So. And I think the conversation also has to come back around to sort of removing any sort of morality or judgment around food. No food is good or bad. You are not good or bad based on what you eat. Some things serve you better than others. And recognizing that can be really impactful. Saying no to things not out of diet, culture or fear, but because from a place of self care, you know, this is not serving you can be really powerful. There are a lot of things we could talk about in terms of self boundaries around foods like sugar or drinking, but I think all of those, you know, can come into play.

It always feel like the confessional booth, you know, they're sitting, bless me, doctor, I ate sugar, dairy and gluten. I'm like, okay, well, I'm not your priest and you're not a bad person. And there's no cheating in my world, you know, like, I cheated on my diet. I'm like, you didn't cheat on anything. You just ate something that didn't work for you.

Yes. It's a learning experience too. Right? Okay, so you, we talk to people on food freedom and they say, okay, I thought it would be worth it and it wasn't. So I failed. You did not fail. That's part of the experience, that's part of the experiment, is you've got to test your hypothesis. I thought this was going to be worth it. Guess what? It wasn't. Cool. I'm going to take that information with me the next time this happens, and I'm going to make a different choice or I'm going to at least remember this context when I'm making that decision. So it's not a failure at all. It's an incredible opportunity to just expand upon the breadth and depth of your knowledge around how foods work for you.

Yeah, it's also part of being human. Right. To be human is to not to quote, unquote, fail. And that's part of, part of the life experience. So I'm just thinking of our listeners and maybe myself also, but maybe not.

Asking for a friend is always fair. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

So reset is amazing. I love resets. I've done fast, countless fast, and I can't wait till, like, I have a steamed cabbage as the first, like, I can't wait. It's like, the most amazing taste. And then we get into weeks, months later. Want that cookie? Want that this? Want that this? When do we know first when to reset? Like, what are some things that tell us, okay, it's time for another reset? And then what are some boundaries that we can put around that can help kind of give us clues?

Yes. I love this. I love this question. So, first of all, when the whole 30 is over, we don't just dump you off on day 31 and say, like, good luck. Have fun with the rest of your life. That's what a lot of weight loss and crash and fad diets do. But we don't do that. Of course, there's a very structured reintroduction program, so you eliminate reintroduce and compare. And then after that, there's an entire program. And one of those books that you referenced is all about life after your whole 30 and how to take what you've learned on the program and turn it into a sustainable diet for you according to your definition of health. And the principal tenets of the program that the book is called Food Freedom Forever, is essentially this conscientious practice to eating things that may or may not serve you. Maybe it's the dairy for me that I know for my whole 30 is gonna make my stomach bloat, and it's gonna make it a little uncomfortable and might make me, you know, a little. My allergies a little worse for the next day or two. And employing a pause and asking myself, first of all, is it worth it? Is it worth it? How is this food going to impact me? I now know how it's gonna impact me, because I've done a whole 30, and now I can say, is it worth it? Is this moment special enough? Is it delicious enough? Is my context such that I can afford to walk around with a stuffy nose and a bloated belly for the next day because this ice cream is so delicious, or I really want to celebrate it or whatever that reason is. Is it worth it? And then the second question is, do I want it? And I think so often we fail to pause and ask ourselves, do I really want this thing? Is this. This ice cream sitting in front of me what I really want? Or am I bored? Am I lonely? Am I craving a connection? Am I anxious about something? I don't want the ice cream. I want something else. And the ice cream is a proxy for that. And let me identify that, not eat it, because it's not gonna Serve me and it's not actually what I want. And think about what I could feed myself that serves me better. And it is a very conscientious practice that requires pauses and requires commitment. But like with any practice, the more you do it, the more automatic it becomes. So that's the food freedom part where I'm now asking myself every time I eat or drink something that may or may not be worth it, is it worth it? Do I want it? And if for some reason, a holiday or a vacation or an incredibly stressful life event throws me off my healthy eating game to the point where I can no longer effectively make those good decisions for myself because I'm too stressed, I'm too overwhelmed, or I've grandfathered so many things in. Now my cravings are back and I don't feel good. The Whole 30 is always there. You can always come back and do another 30 days to sort of reset again. But I encourage people not to use the whole 30 like a trampoline. It's a safety net, not something that you should be bouncing into and then bouncing off of, like yoloing with your face, you know, full of donuts and then bouncing back to the whole 30. The key is really working that conscientious food freedom plan in between.

Yeah, yeah. Now every time you were saying, do I want it? I was thinking, breathe. Like, take a breath as like a pause interrupting the automaticity of food before you look, breathe, and then ask those questions.

That's one of the strategies in Food Freedom Forever is a way to reset. We can get very anxious and our nervous system can become very amped in the face of attempting food, especially if we're in social situations. So taking a breath or saying not right now, but, like, give me not right now, but maybe in a minute or two buys you the time and space to be able to consider those questions without the pressure of this, like, thing being right there in the moment, feeling like you have to say yes or no.

I'm a huge fan of guarding your blind spot, your backside. And so I always. You know, we do a lot of work with people who are in the process of altering the way they eat. And I never say to them you're on a diet because that implies temporary and I just despise the word. So it's a program and it's a change in lifestyle. But I have some food rules that I think we should talk about. So one, never go to a party hungry, because if you're hungry, you're going to make bad choices. You're hungry. Bring a buddy. Bring some. Like, I will. I might try to be nice and be like, oh, well, it's gluten free and okay, I'll try a bite. And my husband's like, over my dead body are you going to try a bite? I have to deal with you. So bring a buddy who is not as nice as you are and might have your back. And then always bring something that you can eat that makes you feel fulfilled and cared for and included. And bring enough to share so that people aren't like, what are you eating? Why am I left out? Those are my food rules.

I think those are really smart strategies. And if you can't bring a buddy, you can bring a boundary, which is, I will not eat foods that I know are not going to make me feel good. And having that boundary with your yourself then allows you to clearly but kindly communicate that boundary to someone else. Thank you so much. That looks delicious, but I'm good. Or no. Or just a simple no, thank you, right? No, thank you. Or if someone's pushing, believe me, I would love to eat it, but gluten and I are not friends. So setting that boundary with yourself first then allows you to have the boundary more present and more organic to share in social situations.

Yeah, I always encourage people just blame me. Just say, I'm seeing this new doctor and she said, I can't eat it. And I promised her I'd take it on for tonight or week, whatever. My favorite thing at the dinner table is to say, look at your own plate. Because we don't comment on other people's plate, what they're eating, what they're not eating. Why are they eating it? Why are they not eating? It's really not anyone's business.

Correct. I don't have a lot of food rules for myself, but one of my rules is I don't talk about food over food. So if someone wants to talk about what, you know, why you're not eating this thing, or why aren't you drinking tonight, or what's that crazy diet you're on Again, my rule is, oh, I don't talk. I don't like to talk about food over food. Let's just enjoy the dinner and if you have some questions, I'll totally talk to you later. I'm doing this really fun thing. Happy to share it, you know, some other time. But that can help reduce defensiveness with people for sure.

Why is it that people get so defensive around this? It's like, I don't feel good when I eat that. So why are you pushing me to eat that?

Because I gave my love into this food. I poured all my love. Effy.

Definitely. Sometimes it's that I think food is third only to, like, politics and religion in terms of really touchy subjects to talk about. And I think what happens is that you can make people feel bad about what they're doing just by doing what you do. It's almost like by making a food choice or an alcohol choice for yourself. They perceive it like you holding up a mirror to their own behaviors. And if they look in that mirror and they don't love what they see when it comes to their habits, their emotional relationship with food, the things that they know that they're doing that aren't serving them, just watching you do that for yourself can feel really threatening and can make them feel really defensive. You know, if you're talking about a friend group, they might worry that if you've always bonded over pancakes or dessert or wine, will you still have enough in common or will you still want to be friends if you no longer engage in that behavior? For a lot of people, especially our parents, food was love. And if you reject their food, they take it almost as a rejection of themselves or a rejection of their love. And you have to sort of redefine as a family unit what it means to stay connected, even if you are not eating their chocolate chip cookies or their famous lasagna. So there are a lot of reasons. Food is not just food. It's emotional, it's cultural, it's familial, it's very sensitive. And so I think we have to think about that when we are in social situations trying to make the best health choices for ourselves.

Melissa, I have a question, because I feel like I'm talking to myself. Right. Everything that you say is what we say, and we're totally in agreement. And then we go outside this bubble. And hypothetically speaking, we might have people at our dinner table whose views might not agree with this. So how do you navigate this? You know, you're sitting at the dinner table with the people, saving their calories for wine, concerned that it's going to their hips, looking at other people's plates. How do you navigate that? You know, what are the down to the nitty gritty of what are you saying to that person to get them off your son's back when they're bothering him about what he's eating, not eating, or how much?

Yes. So it's important to note that a boundary is not about telling someone else what to do. I can't make my cousin stop talking about their diets, their weight loss, their thighs, their calories. I cannot control what they choose to talk about. What I can control is what I subject myself to. The conversations that I choose to participate in or receive or on behalf of my kids, the conversations that I allow them to be a part of or subjected to. So maybe before the next event, you can have a conversation with your family or your mom or whoever happens to be sort of the one instigating these, saying, hey, Mom, I just want to make you aware we're really trying to teach my kiddos a healthy way to relate with food. And part of doing that is not talking about what's on each other's plates, not talking about our bodies, or not talking about weight loss or dieting over food. I'm going to ask, when we're at the table that we just not talk about those subjects. Is that something that you can agree to? So notice you're not saying, don't think about those things. Don't talk about those things in your own life. What you are saying is, this is a healthy limit that I have for myself and my family. Will you agree to meet me in this limit so that our relationship can be healthy and trusting and respectful and work for both of us? If they say yes and in the moment forget, then you can say, oops, Grandma. Remember, we trust Tommy to know when he's full. Buddy, if you're full, then you can be excused. So it's a gentle correction in the moment of, I'm going to interrupt you. This isn't a conversation that we're going to have. And then you excuse. If you find that the conversation persists beyond that point, which is somewhat rude, then you can say, excuse me, this is not a conversation that we want to have around food. The kids and I are going for a walk. And you physically remove yourself from the situation because that is the expression of your boundary.

So you vote with your feet.

You vote with your feet. Exactly. So I offer boundaries in three different kind of categories, green, yellow, and red, based on the level of threat. Your green boundary is the gentlest language. It's so kind. It's assuming they didn't realize that you had a limit and they want to meet it. If you express it, the red is this behavior has escalated. They have proven unwilling or unable to respect my limits, and now I'm going to take the action that I need to keep myself safe and healthy.

You're highlighting permission, which I think a lot of women don't always give Themselves permission to be fully self expressed and vote with their feet. Right. Like, how many women do you talk to who are like, oh, I could never say that. Yes. And as you were talking, I was like, I would feel uncomfortable getting up and walking away. But it really does underscore the level to which sometimes I will put up with what doesn't work for me to maintain the peace.

Yes. So we women have been conditioned by the patriarchy and stereotypically rigid gender roles and diet, culture and very often religious influences to be small, to be compliant, to not have needs and if we do, to not vocalize them and to make sure that everybody else needs and comfort come before our own, especially when we're moms. And yes, I will admit that advocating for yourself and setting boundaries is uncomfortable, but what you are already doing is also uncomfortable. Sitting there at the table, holding your tongue, knowing that this behavior is harming you, harming your kids, not saying anything or speaking up, trying to do damage control after the fact, being resentful, dreading these interactions, having anxiety around them, going home and thinking about all of the things that you could have said or should have said and didn't say and beating yourself up about it. That is also uncomfortable. And one of these uncomfortable paths leads to a change in the relationship that can make everything easier, freer, more trusting, more respectful, healthier. And the other path just gets you more of the same.

So you're going to be uncomfortable.

Yeah, either way you're going to be uncomfortable. But choose your discomfort and one path actually leads you to freedom.

So your book, tell people where they can find out or where they can buy your book, what's the title and where they can find out more about you.

Yeah, I just got my very first copy, advanced copy. And so it's right here. It's called the Book of Boundaries. It's very pretty and it's really about learning how to set the limits that will set you free in all of your relationships. And much like you just said, it's so hard to know what to say. I wanted to include scripts. There are over 130 scripts with green, yellow, red options in the book so that I, you know exactly what to say in these situations to set and hold the boundaries that you need. So it's available everywhere books are sold. It's called the Book of Boundaries. You can see more at my website, which is melissayou.com or follow me on Instagram at Melissa you or TikTok Elissau. So yeah, I'm on all of those places talking all things Boundaries.

You basically provided recipes for conversation. Essentially.

Ooh, I love the way you put that. I may steal that with proper credit to you, of course, but, yes, that's exactly what I've done.

Yeah.

That's beautiful. Thank you.

Because you have the recipes in, like, Whole 30, and now you have recipes for boundaries.

I know. That's really good. My publicist is gonna love that.

Yep, they can send me the bill.

Okay.

Tell me, is there anything we should have asked you that we didn't ask you that? You wanna make sure you communicate with our audience?

Oh, that's such a good question. I think that one thing that I want to impart is the idea that your needs are valid, that you are worthy of having your perfectly reasonable limits met. And that if you don't share them clearly, I'm not talking about hinting or eye rolling or laughing uncomfortably or making people guess or hoping they get your vibe. If you don't see speak them clearly and kindly, you don't stand a chance of having your needs met. So that's what I want you to believe. Know that your needs are worthy. Know that you're worthy of having them met. And now have the words to know exactly what to say in those situations to set the limits that will set you free.

Awesome. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thanks for having me.

No, thank you for being here. And thanks to the listeners. This is another episode of the Five Journeys podcast Live like youe Matter. Our guest today was Melissa Urban. And as mentioned, the Book of Boundaries is out and you can buy it. Go get a copy today.

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