Lead Is Still Hiding in Your 1990s Home, with Dr. Hannah Gardener

Hello and welcome to the Feel Freaking Amazing podcast. I'm Wendie Trubow. Here's Ed Levitan. You only have him briefly today. He's jumping out halfway through. And our guest today is Dr. Hannah Gardner, who is a— she has a doctorate in epidemiology from the Harvard School of Public Health. She's an associate professor studying modifiable risk and protective factors for brain health. She's also a healthy home consultant helping families reduce their exposure to toxic chemicals in their environments, which is everything that we're all about. So, Hannah, welcome. We're so excited you could join us today.

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

Yeah. So how'd you get into this? Like, why this topic?

Yeah. So, um, So there are sort of two ways that I got into this. First, I got into academia, and then I got into my side consulting work. And I had no idea what epidemiology was in college and for the first couple of years out of college. And it was about, yeah, I guess about 2 years out of college, I was about 24 years old, and I was working at consulting company, and there was a colleague of mine there who said that they were going to graduate school for epidemiology. And when I learned that that is really sort of like the marriage of health and statistics, which were, you know, my passion and sort of my skill set, my, you know, I thought, wow, this is something I really want to learn more about. And, and what I love about epidemiology is it's really we treat the community as the patient. So physicians treat the patients as the patients, and epidemiologists really think about how we can improve health from a community population standpoint, how we can reduce the burden of disease and increase wellness. And so I think it was that day I learned everything I could about what epidemiology is. And I think about a year later, I was starting my doctoral program. And what I love about epidemiology is there's so much work to be done and there's so much promise and so much excitement in this field. And then so while I was in grad school, I learned about environmental toxins, but I didn't really think about it as intensely until I became pregnant. And one of the topics I studied in graduate school was prenatal risk factors for various neurological outcomes. And I really had like an academic relationship with that whole topic until I became pregnant in 2008. And then I started thinking, this applies to me and my future children. And I started really delving into all the environmental toxins in my home environment on a deeper, more personal level., and I started talking all of my friends' ears off about what they should, what modifications they can change in their home environment to reduce their family's burden of toxic chemicals. And I sort of became the go-to person for my friend group. And one of my friends one day said, you're the one that we all ask questions of. Why don't you start this as a consulting business?, and it was around that time that I had started thinking more about flame retardants and mattresses. And I had recently, less than a year prior to that, I had purchased a conventional mattress for myself. And I was thinking, I spent all this money on this conventional mattress that's filled with toxic flame retardants and polyurethane foam, and now I'm pregnant and I don't want to be sleeping on this every night. So I figured, all right, I'll do some consulting. So that I can make some money to buy a new mattress. And that's really, that was my goal. That's as far as I went. And I figured, you know, when I got the money to buy a new mattress, that that would be the end of it. And now it has been about 14 years and I love it. It's really my passion, helping families make small and large changes to reduce their exposures.

The most important question, did you get your mattress? Of course she got her mattress. I just want to make sure in every room.

Yes, it took a while, but I got my mattress and then I started realizing there was more and more that I wanted to change about my environment. And like I tell my clients, I did not get that mattress within a year. I don't even know if maybe it was 2 years. It took time and I was patient and In the meantime, I made smaller changes to my environment, but I did.

I got that mattress. Yeah. I remember when we first started this process, we're married, and when we first started this process, he was like, this is meshuggeneh. This is nuts. Yes. And we've slowly brought him up to the bright side because I've got the grays to prove it. Yeah. But I don't think that most people really even think about that. What you're sleeping on has things that disrupt the endocrine system, particularly the thyroid, that when you sleep on flame retardants, they actually mess up your thyroid. And with autoimmune disease rampant and Hashimoto's disease and thyroid dysfunction rampant, we have to look and go, okay, what's causing all of this? And our environment is a massive source of it. So I love that you're doing this. Okay, absolutely. So I kind of hinted at it, but why does this matter? Why is a healthy home important?

Yeah. So the reason why a healthy home matters is because our bodies are capable of excreting, metabolizing, removing toxins to a large extent. We've got kidneys, we've got livers, and they do a really good job, but they don't do enough to tackle all of the toxins that we are exposed to. Everyone's exposed to. I'm still exposed to them. My house is not perfect. Nobody's house is perfect. But all that we are exposed to in this modern day between flame retardants and phthalates and PFAS and so many different endocrine disruptors, carcinogens, reproductive toxins, skin irritants. There is just so much and they impact every organ of our body. And the more we reduce our exposures, the better able we are to to live healthily and thrive in our modern environment. And nobody has to be perfect, but these are real health threats. And 14 years ago when I started this work, they were not really recognized as real health threats like they are today. Now, you know, the topics that I was talking about that sounded really fringe 14 years ago— I work at a medical school, so a lot of these topics that sounded really fringe 14 years ago are, are really so much more mainstream in the medical, in the medical environment these days. And we're talking about PFAS and we're talking about phthalates. You know, NIH is devoting a lot of money to studying these chemicals. Medical schools, medical researchers realize that they need to be aware of these different chemicals because their patients are asking about them and because because they matter. They need to be incorporated into research studies so that we can better identify how to promote health.

Right. So one of the things that I was shocked about, and I never really thought about, but when we built our home 21 years ago, and you were much more into toxins and toxicants at that point than I was. I wasn't really thinking about it, but I remember there were certain— that you insisted on using no VOC paint, and it was really hard to find 21 years ago. So what I'd love for— if you could talk for a few minutes about, or however long it takes, about building materials, furniture, cleaning products. What are the insidious, obvious, and not so obvious sources of how we're being harmed by the things we just do to our homes, right? We, you know, build a home, renovate a home. How are we getting exposed?

Yeah, so this is something that I thought about personally a lot this summer because I redid one of the bathrooms in, in my home. And it's something that I work with clients on every single day, every week, is how to do— how to build healthier homes, how to renovate their homes in ways where they minimize their toxic exposures and don't create significant impairments to the air quality in their homes. So VOCs is something that we really need to think about, whether it's paints and caulks and sealants. And the cabinetry can emit VOCs. I mean, there's so many building products. Insulation is really— is a real big one. And what I do is I try to help my clients within any budget identify what are the biggest threats to the air quality for whatever project they're doing. If they are redoing a kitchen or a bathroom or if they're building a whole home, what are the biggest threats to the air quality? Oftentimes that comes from insulation, from flooring, from cabinetry, paints, Any types of sealants. And what I do is I help them identify within their budget what are better choices that they can make. And recognizing that probably any new build is not gonna be perfect, then how do they improve their air quality? Increasing circulation, adding air purifiers, how they can improve their air quality after their home is built. But one of the big things is actually the existing their home and demolishing what is already there in a safe way. My home was built in 1997. Most people would just demolish a 1997 bathroom without even thinking about how the demolition process itself might actually be a health threat. But the tiles in my 1997 bathroom had very high levels of lead. People think, Lead was removed in our homes in the late 1970s when it was regulated in paint. But people don't realize that even modern-day tiles can have very high levels of lead. And when you're demolishing tiles, a lot of tiles in a big bathroom, that can create a substantial lead hazard. So we had our bathroom demolished before the work was done by a, a lead remediation company, and then we did clearance testing. We had We did a lot of dust sampling for lead after the demolition was done, and it mostly passed. There was one spot where there was a little bit too much lead for my comfort. It met current standards, but standards are going to change soon, and it wouldn't in a short period of time. So we had them come back and clean thoroughly again. So we made sure that all of the lead was gone. Before the construction started creating the new bathroom. And then when I, when I chose the materials, I paid a lot of attention to things like PFAS, things like volatile organic compounds, as well as lead and other heavy metals that, that could enter even a new modern build. Okay.

There's a lot to unpack here.

At some point I want to get to insulation because that actually I'm very curious.

Before we get to insulation, I've been thinking about insulation. This tile thing out. Go do the tile. How did you know your tiles contain lead? Because that's actually not something that I've really thought about. And actually, I think about it. We went to Barcelona and Portugal, and I tested all of the ceramics that I brought back, and they all had lead. And I was really mad because I wanted to have them as serving pieces. And now they're going to be decorative pieces in my office. But how would you know? How would you know that your tile has lead? Because obviously the surface of it would test negative.

Yeah, the surface of it would test negative. So we hired a certified lead inspector with an XRF gun, and you need an XRF gun to get under those, under the lower levels of the tile.

So is it, is it like a laser where he goes, okay, this is lighting up as lead, or is it, you know, is, is it, or is he actually taking a sample of the tile and then sending it off?

Not a sample. It's like a, it's like a gun, uh, that he points, um, she actually points to, um, the tile and it, and it reads the, the amount of it.

Can you say the name of it so that we can put it in the show notes for people?

Yeah, the, um, so any— so if you, if you live in Massachusetts like we do, um, if you go onto the state, um, website, there is a list of certified, um, lead inspectors across the state that can come to your house with an XRF gun and, um, and they can test your— the paint in your house, um, and the tile. And that's really important because most homes these days, if you just did a swab of the top layer of paint, there's not going to be— there's not going to be lead most likely, because unless your home hasn't had any paint layers since, you know, the 1979. Yeah, exactly. And probably even in the 1970s, you know, lead had been pretty much removed from paint before the regulations took place. So it's more like 19— realistically, more like 1960s and earlier. But if you hire a lead inspector, they will come with an XRF gun and they will test all of the areas in your home that you want to have tested, and they can let you know where lead is present, even in the underneath layers. And then you can be really cognizant of especially friction surfaces. Friction surfaces are real substantial lead hazards, whether it be doors or window— excuse me, windows or other areas where lead can— where paint can wear away and expose those leaded areas. Yeah.

And I think we also want to remember— so there's a couple of things I want to highlight about what you're saying. One thing we want to remember is that if your whole house is painted, as the house settles, those joists where the wall meets the ceiling or the wall meets the floor, it's grinding into lead dust very subtly. And you'll pick that up either by eating it, breathing it, or absorbing it through your skin. So you're going to get lead exposures in ways. Or if you're— I have a patient who's a weekend warrior and loves to cut into her walls. I'm like, can you please stop cutting into your walls? You see her brother, he brought you the deer. So I was like, please stop cutting into the walls because the weekend warrior stuff is spiking her lead. I can always tell, you know, we do the testing and we provoke, and I can tell when she's done a weekend warrior project because her lead goes up. And I'm like, did you do a project? She's like, yeah. I'm like, cut it out. Literally, don't literally cut it out, just stop. And the other thing you highlighted that I want to underscore is that In, I think it was 1989, there was a study in also in Massachusetts done that, that showed that 1 out of every 6 deaths was implicated in either air quality or water quality or both. So you can't overstate the importance of your home air quality given that you spend hours, you know, every day, week, month, year, you are in your house. And so air and water quality are also really important things to focus on.

And so important because, I mean, the major causes of death are cardiovascular disease and cancers. And air quality and water quality, we know, are highly related to your risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer and neurological diseases. Those are the biggest health threats that we face.

All right, you ready?

Insulation. Insulation. Insulation. Insulation. Yes. So insulation is really important. It can be a real significant predictor of air quality after you do a renovation project. And the more insulation you are replacing, the bigger the threat is. And I talked about it isn't just what you put new into your house, it's what you're removing. Older insulation can be really problematic too, because older insulation can be, can have asbestos, and again, it can have other issues too. But asbestos is really, really important. Before you replace the insulation of your house, you wanna make sure that if you wanna make sure that you know whether there's asbestos there or not, and if there is, you wanna remove it really, really carefully so you don't create a bigger problem. But yeah, insulation can really, really impact VOCs. And what I have noticed from clients is when they use your typical spray foam, they'll come back to, come back to their homes and the air quality will be obviously really hindered. It will be hard to breathe. They'll have respiratory effects, not always, but oftentimes. And then what happens is they will go to the person who installed the new insulation and nobody takes accountability. The installer blames the manufacturer, the manufacturer blames the installer, and there's no accountability. And it's one of the issues that's harder to fix after the work is done. So what I tell people is, you know, if you are prioritizing your budget for a healthier home remodel insulation, is something that you should think carefully about. And actually, one of the cheapest options tends to be one of the healthiest, and that's just fiberglass batting. That, that tends to be a healthier option. Formaldehyde used to be a big threat in formaldehyde, in, in fiberglass batting, but it's really been, been eliminated recently. Yeah.

What about the paper insulation? Cellulose. Cellulose. It's like paper, and it's stick— it almost like— it's almost like paper mache.

We did that in our house 20 years ago. Yeah. So there's a lot of sort of gradations of, you know, from worst to best. Rockwool is another one that I highly recommend. But I, like, most of the time I just tell people, use fiberglass batting.

And then the spray foam, are there Are there any that are clean in the spray foams?

There are ones that claim that they are cleaner. And just because a product is more natural does not mean that it's necessarily healthier. I typically advise people to try to stay away from it when they're using it in large amounts. If you're replacing a couple of windows and they need a little bit of spray foam, that's not what I worry about. What I worry about is if you're putting on a big addition to your home, adding a large area or you're building a home from scratch.

All right, we're back. Ed has stepped out, and so he's left Hannah and I to make mischief. So can you say a little bit more about the difference between green, eco-friendly, and healthy? Because you distinguish that natural doesn't always mean it's good for you.

So can you say more about that, please? Yeah. So I mean, none of these really have strict definitions. So, so there's that, you know, already, especially green. Green is, I don't, you know, it's left up to the interpretation. Anyone can say their product is green. There is no specific definition for it. Eco-friendly, I interpret as being more sort of products that might be sustainable and have environmental advantages, but not necessarily healthier and not always sort of environmentally healthy, healthier either. And what comes to mind right away is artificial turf. Artificial turf is known to have so many different carcinogens and neurotoxins in it, heavy metals, PFAS, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. Yeah, I mentioned heavy metals like lead. There are so many toxins in artificial turf, and it's often touted as being an eco-friendly alternative because it allows us to use recycled tires on children's playgrounds, which is ridiculous to me. But it provides a use for all of these old recycled tires, and people say, that, oh, it reduces the need to use pesticides on playgrounds and lawns. So, you know, I feel like that's sort of a glaring example of a type of product that is often advertised as being eco-friendly when it has— can have real severe health implications.

Did you ever wonder why they can't just make new tires from old tires, melt them down, make them into another tire? Like, why not just make it into another tire? Okay. How much— when someone's renovating, how much can they do themselves versus hiring a professional?

Well, it depends on the person. I mean, you know, I'm the least handy person out there. I can't— I can barely change my own light bulbs. So to me, it's just— it's so impressive when I have clients who do work themselves. So I do have clients that actually do a lot of work themselves. They're really, really handy and they, they come to me to advise them about the precautions that they need to take, especially when demolishing their current, you know, their current home and building anew. It's a skill. It's a real skill set. And especially, like, you know, when I think about all of the craftsmanship that went into the bathroom my family's new bathroom and all of the care that was taken to prevent mold in the future and to make sure that from a water leakage perspective, we were really, we were really being careful and safe. And, you know, people can get that, that knowledge, that background in many different ways. But if you want to protect your, your home and your family, whether you're doing the work yourself or hiring someone, it's really important to be knowledgeable about all the different ways that building a home can in fact impact your family's health.

You know, we, we did a construction project on our bathroom. Gosh, it was 2 years ago at this point. And I was okay. So we built our home 21 years ago and then I was like, we have mold in our bathroom. And I'm— I was still salty about the contractor who refused to put ventilation above the steam shower because he's like, you don't need that. I'm like, we need that. And this is before I was quite so willing to just get in someone's face and be like, no, you're not right, you need to do that for me. So I let him go, and then we had mold. And then I said to the new contractor, rip everything out. Like, if we have mold in one place, we might have mold somewhere else. Rip everything out. And he gave me a hard time. He's like, you don't need to do that. I said, why are we arguing? Like, I'm paying you, just rip it out. And I said it nicer than that, but he was like, okay, fine, I'll rip it out. And then he goes, you have mold in the ceiling. I'm like, I know.

Yeah, yeah, mold is very— mold is very common. We found mold. We expected to find some mold, um, when we demolished our bathroom. It's very, very common, um, and There is a lot of variability between contractors in terms of their knowledge about, about things like mold and things like lead and how open-minded they are to learning and changing their ways, especially when it's motivated, you know, by, by their customers and their customers' insistence. And what I love is when contractors don't feel like they know everything already when they're really, they're confident in their skill set and so much so that they are willing and interested in learning new things from different projects.

Yeah, I want to take a minute and go back because we talked about the presence of all these things and things like turf and paint. But I wanna draw— I wanna come full circle for the listeners so that they remember that lead is a heavy metal and it's— you can get rid of it, but not everyone's good at it. And it loves to live in your bones and replace your normal bone architecture, which is a risk factor for osteopenia, osteoporosis. A, you're a specialist in brain health. Lead and other heavy metals are implicated in dementia, Alzheimer's, all types of cognitive dysfunction. And so, we want to remember that. And, they're implicated in metabolic dysfunction. So, any type of metabolic dysfunction, PCOS is included in that along with type 2 diabetes. And so, we're looking at this massive impact from things that you might be like, "Okay, right, I'm not going to hang out with lead." But, if it's in your exposure world along with mercury, the the VOCs, all of these things have real clinical consequences. It's not just philosophical, it's real. And, given that we're noticing that autoimmune disease is spiking and cancer, not only cancer in general, but cancer at younger ages is spiking, the only real common denominator is our environment. So, we need to honor— it's coming from somewhere. It's not just magical. We're not genetically wrong. We're We're just reacting to all the things we're getting exposed to.

Yeah, I mean, so lead is a known, proven neurotoxin. There is no ambiguity about this and there is no known safe level of lead. They, you know, any exposure to lead is understood to be harmful and it is so neurotoxic at such minute levels that we actually forget that it's associated with so many different health outcomes. It is associated with cardiovascular health. It is a carcinogen. And that often gets overshadowed by its neurotoxicity and all of the strong evidence and everything. You know, we talk about lead primarily as a neurotoxin, especially compared to like, you know, cadmium and arsenic are also neurotoxins, but we often really focus on their carcinogenic potential because that is sort of the the such a big threat from arsenic and cadmium. But really all of them are neurotoxic and carcinogenic. And our exposure to lead has decreased dramatically over the past several decades. And so we think we've sort of solved it, but we haven't. We're still exposed to way too much lead. And so many children are still, are still lead poisoned. You know, I think there's this sort of common perception in the late 1970s, we sort of got lead out of our homes. But, but we haven't. It's not like VOCs. It's not like air quality where it outgasses from our home. Like, it doesn't go anywhere. If lead was in your home, whether it be in the paint or in your tiles or anywhere in your home, it's really prevalent. It's not going anywhere unless you, you know, demolish it, unless you remove it. And even then you can actually create a bigger problem. And lead is common in a lot of our household items as well. And it's highly prevalent in our food. These days, one of the biggest exposure sources for most people is actually what they eat.

So is this because it's in the soil? Like, it's California soil. I know that's very high in thallium.

Is it also soil across the country and soil from other countries? I mean, it was used so much in so many different ways for so long that it's absolutely in our soil. And people are like, oh, that's naturally occurring lead. That's not better. The lead from our spinach that we eat in our spinach or that we eat in our sweet potatoes is still lead. And it doesn't really actually matter where it comes from. It doesn't matter if it came from the soil that your food was grown in or the water that was used to irrigate the soil that your food was grown in, or if it came from the packaging that your food was packaged in. Lead is lead.

So are there top foods for lead?

Yes. So there are. And it's probably too off topic to go into all those right now. When I talk about heavy metals in foods, the biggest thing that I talk about is arsenic and rice, because that is sort of the exposure that I really want to address because a lot of people consume way too much arsenic and reducing the consumption of not just rice but rice products. So, like, brown rice syrup. You see brown rice syrup all over the place in organic treats and organic granola bars and organic cookies and organic candy. I have a lot of clients who are trying to reduce their exposure to artificial dyes, and so they're really focusing on artificial dyes and things like candy. And a lot of the candy that does not have artificial dyes is sweetened with brown rice syrup. And I am like, like, that will have so much arsenic. And arsenic is so much worse for you than artificial dyes. Like, people ask me, what should I— if I'm weighing artificial dyes or arsenic? And I'm like, there is no comparison. And this is what happened. This is problem with social media and misinformation on social media that we even have to ask the question, which is worse? Arsenic from brown rice syrup or artificial dyes. I mean, arsenic is, is so, so toxic for our brains as a carcinogen. And if you think that choosing a candy that's, you know, that's free of artificial dyes and has other dyes that actually might pose a lead hazard, but is sweetened with brown rice syrup, and you think that that's going to overall reduce your exposure to environmental toxins, it's the absolute opposite.

Right. You've gone from the frying pan into the fire. But I think you're also really highlighting that there's no perfection. There's exposure everywhere. So you need to pick what's the least bad. Yeah, it's not about most bad. It's what's the least bad option here and try to mitigate your risk, understanding you're never going to get to a net zero exposure.

So how do we— Yeah, so how do we do that? So First of all, what I tell people is you can't shop your way out of heavy metals. So the best thing you can do is call your representative and advocate for regulations of heavy metals in our food supply. And that's something that I am involved in. We need regulations for heavy metals in food supply. People don't realize that it wasn't until this year that there started to be suggested regulations for lead in baby food. 2025, in January of this year. Yeah. Yeah. So that's really scary. So we need there to be realistic but health protective regulations of heavy metals in our food supply, not just baby food, but food in general. In the absence of that, the best thing that we can do is just regular people is aim for variety, variability in terms of what we eat, the brands we eat. And this is like sort of one of my main mantras that I tell my clients about everything that they put in and on their body, that we can't see contamination. We can't see what foods are contaminated with PFAS, what are contaminated with heavy metals, with phthalates. The best thing that we can do to reduce our exposure to contaminants overall is just to have variability in terms of the food we eat, the brands that we eat, personal care products, makeup, everything that goes in and on our body. If we just vary it up, we are going to inevitably reduce our exposure to all sorts of environmental toxins. And when I have clients call me really upset, it's typically because they found out something bad about a product that they used all day, every day for years, their favorite peanut butter. Someone tested their favorite peanut butter and it has really high levels of phthalates, or someone tested their peanut butter and it has really high levels of mold, mycotoxins. I'm like, it's all mycotoxins. Yeah. And so I'm like, if you want to reduce the chance that you're going to be giving me a call to help calm your nerves, because that's what I do most of the time when my clients are calling me, I'm trying to help them put things into perspective and reduce their, their stress and their guilt and their regret, that the best thing you can do is aim for variability. And for me, that's a challenge because I'm the kind of person I could eat, you know, the same thing for breakfast every day, the same thing for lunch. I like to be loyal to brands and loyal to things. I'm just— that's just my nature. And so it's something that I have to really think consciously about. Getting variability in terms of everything that I use.

And I think the really important thing that I will add as a provider, because you're doing the, how do we diminish your exposure on a global scale? We're looking at what's actually in your body and what's clinically relevant. So we're testing. So I'm a huge proponent of test, don't guess. And how good of a detoxer are you? How's your MTHFR? What are the other factors going into this? Did your mom, you know, 'cause you're getting 50% of whatever your mom had, so was your mom someone who grew up at a time when there was lead and mercury and less pesticides but more heavy metals type things? And test your body because we can, it's not the holy grail. You can't say you have exactly this amount, but you can say low, medium, high, You should be worried about this. We can test for the PFAS, all of the phthalates, the styrene. We can test for gasoline fumes. We can test for airline fuel. We can test for all of these things, flame retardants. We can test for them. So I'm a huge proponent of if you're worried, test, don't guess, test.

I mean, I have a lot of clients who've gotten a lot of sort of reassurance when they have tested, and that reduces their anxiety, which improves their detox, by the way, right?

Because your stress shuts down your detox. So it all over helps.

And sometimes it actually can oddly help motivate them to reduce their exposure. If they already feel like they're doing well, it actually can sometimes provide a motivation to keep going and making more changes to their environment. And it helps people prioritize what exposures to tackle in their homes because nobody has an unlimited budget. And it helps them decide where they put their mental resources, where they invest their limited finances. And a lot of times the changes that people— that I recommend people make in their homes actually don't cost anything. It's identifying what to get rid of in your homes. And it's oftentimes donating to other people. People will feel guilty donating items that have environmental toxins, whether it's china that has lead in it or it's plastic toys. And what I tell people is everyone has different priorities. If you have someone who wants to buy something, you can't say, oh, there's no lead in this if there actually is. That would be unethical. But there are plenty of people who want and are okay with having china in their home that has lead. And it's not our position to say, no, you can't have that.

Right.

You know, people are allowed to choose whatever the exposures that they want. And many people, you know, many people embrace plastic toys and other people say, no plastic toys in my house. And it's better to donate the plastic toys that you have in your house to people who really want them in their homes, because otherwise people are just consuming more new plastic toys. You know, I tell people there's nothing wrong with donating— you're giving away your mattress that you might be getting rid of because there's flame retardants in it. There are other people who would, who would go out and get a different mattress that has flame retardants and, and are okay with with that product. And that's okay because we all are okay with, you know, different exposures in our lives. Nobody can— nobody can do it all perfectly.

Yeah. And I would always say to people, I'm a huge proponent of upgrade when you're— when you need it. Meaning, yes, you have a couch or a bed or a rug that has flame retardants in it, but you've already used it and it's already started to off-gas and you've you're already in it. So if it's a huge clinical issue, yes, buy a new one right now. But normally I would say let it run its life until you feel that you've gotten the value out of it. And then when you buy a new one, don't buy one that has flame retardants in it.

Exactly. Yeah, that's what I tell people. I'm like, when you're going out to buy a new big purchase, that's when you call me. Call me. Don't worry about the couches that are perfectly fine in your house right now. When you're ready to buy a new couch, that's when you call me and we can talk about, you know, what is a good, you know, a good couch in your budget to get.

I'm curious, Hannah, do you have any idea if you get a couch and it has flame retardants in it and then you decide you're going to deep steam clean it, does that remove any of the flame retardants?

I don't think so. Not, not to any sort of—

not meaningfully. Okay.

No, no. But I mean, one thing. So flame retardants, what they do is they migrate out of products slowly over time. So the more that you remove dust in your home, because the flame retardants will accumulate in the dust in your home and then you inhale that dust, the dust inevitably, you know, gets on your hands. And with normal hand-to-mouth contact, you end up ingesting those flame retardants. So the more that you vacuum and wet dust and wash your hands, especially before you eat, wash them regularly, the less you will consume those flame retardants that are, that are in your couch.

Is there anything that Ed and I, or I haven't asked you that people really need to know before we close it up?

So I guess the big question that people come to me and ask is, where do I start? What do I— like, what should I, what should I prioritize? And so this is my non-answer to that, that question. So what I tell people is, you know, you should start with the products that you think make the biggest difference. If you in your heart think that your makeup is— that's where it's at, that's where, you know, you should focus, then overhaul your makeup. If you think it's your cookware, that's where a lot of people feel motivated, then focus on your, on your cookware. If you think it's your clothing, focus on your clothing. If you are tackling the exposure sources that you think are the most relevant, you will have a big impact because you will feel so empowered. You will feel like you're doing a really great job. It'll have a psychological benefit, which will have a huge, huge benefit for your health. So I tell people to focus on the areas where they, um, that they are motivated to change. And I tell people focus on the areas that cause the least amount of stress. You know, if you been using the same deodorant since you were in middle school and you think it works so well and the idea of like not wearing that deodorant every day makes you feel nervous about going out into the world. Don't think about that. That deodorant. Think about other things because the goal is to reduce exposure to toxic chemicals. Not— it's impossible to eliminate it. And it's actually not— it's not necessary and it's not the right approach. And I tell people to focus on making changes when, like you mentioned, when they're already needing to go out and get a new couch or go out and get a new mattress or new clothes or, you know, baby gear, whatever it is. There are some products that we replace really frequently, you know, whether it's the tin foil or the plastic wrap or whatever the food packaging we use in our homes, the cleaning products, the personal care products, those we change out pretty frequently, a couple of times a year. Year. So we're able to tackle those sort of more quickly. And then other big prod— other big products are things that we might replace once every 10 years or 20 years. And that, that's where we need to sort of think a little bit more carefully. And I tell people to prioritize products that go in and on our bodies and in particular impact the most vulnerable people in our families. So whether that be children or pregnant people, people with immune deficiencies or other health conditions, prioritize the exposures that are most impacting the most vulnerable people in your families. And so that's what a lot of people sort of come to me for. They'll come to me to help them make decisions and especially financial, where to spend their money, but sort of where do I begin? How do I start this? It feels so overwhelming. And I tell people, focus on the decisions also that you feel really confident in. If you feel really confident, if you're like, oh, I don't know about this brand of— let me think of— try to think of a good example. This brand of floor cleaner versus that brand of floor cleaner. I don't know which one's better, but I'm really confident that the dish about, you know, a dish soap choice. Focus on the decisions that you're really, that you're really confident in. And those that you aren't, ask for help or just buy what most people use. Because if you— anytime you're not sure, you shouldn't really go against the grain. You're, you're likely to, to regret those decisions in, in my, in my experience with clients.

Yeah, I always recommend phoning a friend, like go on EWG or Think Dirty. Go on those sites and, and run it by it. You know, my kids are like, I'm like, I've never heard of that brand. She said it's rated number 1. It's rated as a 1 on EWG. I'm like, fine, I don't need to know the brand as long as you've looked it up and you're confident that it's actually safe.

So totally, totally. There's so many. I have a very, very active Facebook group where people ask questions all day long, product recommendations, random questions. I chime in with I've not all, but a lot of them, and there I have thousands of really knowledgeable people in my group that chime in with recommendations. And I'm not the only one. There's plenty of places like that on social media where you can get really great, um, great advice.

So speaking of that, we'll put this all in the show notes.

Where can people find you? Yes, so people can find me, um, my Facebook page is called A Green Slate. I have a really active Facebook group with thousands really smart, awesome people. That's called a Greenslate Community. You can find me on Instagram, a Greenslate Consulting. My website is pretty basic, but it's there, a greenslate.com. And my name is Dr. Hannah Gardner, so you can also Google me and find ways to contact me as well.

Sweet, Hannah, this has been an awesome conversation. Thank you. Thanks for joining us. And I mean, for the listeners, thanks for joining us and get started, right? Don't wait to transform your health to, to get started. Don't wait another minute to start because you can start small and then get big.

Yes, absolutely. Start small, start gradual. And, uh, I'm here to help people reduce their stress while making small, easy changes.

It's awesome. Thank you, Hannah.

It's been great. Thank you.

Thank you so much.