Lead Is Still Hiding in Your 1990s Home, with Dr. Hannah Gardener

Our exposure to lead has decreased dramatically over the past several decades, and so we think we've sort of solved it, but we haven't. We're still exposed to way too much lead. You know, I think there's this sort of common perception that the late 1970s, we sort of got lead out of our homes, but we haven't.

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Hello and welcome to the Feel Freaking Amazing podcast. I'm Wendie Trubow. Here's Ed Levitan. You only have him briefly today. He's jumping out halfway through. And our guest today is Dr. Hannah Gardner, who is a She has a doctorate in epidemiology from the Harvard School of Public Health. She's an associate professor studying modifiable risk and protective factors for brain health. She's also a healthy home consultant helping families reduce their exposure to toxic chemicals in their environments, which is everything that we're all about. So, Hannah, welcome. We're so excited you could join us today.

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

Yeah. So why does this matter? Why is a healthy home important?

Yeah. So the reason why a healthy home matters is because our bodies are capable of excreting, metabolizing, removing toxins to a large extent. We've got kidneys, we've got livers, and they do a really good job, but they don't do enough to tackle all of the toxins that we are exposed to. Everyone's exposed to. I'm still exposed to them. My house is not perfect. Nobody's house is perfect. But all that we are exposed to in this modern day between flame retardants and phthalates and PFAS and so many different endocrine disruptors, carcinogens, reproductive toxins, skin irritants. There is just so much and they impact every organ of our body. And the more we reduce our exposures, the better able we are to to live healthily and thrive in our modern environment. And nobody has to be perfect, but these are real health threats. And 14 years ago when I started this work, they were not really recognized as real health threats like they are today. Now, a lot of these topics that sounded really fringe 14 years ago are, are really so much more mainstream in the medical, in the medical environment these days. And we're talking about PFAS and we're talking about phthalates. You know, NIH is devoting a lot of money to studying these chemicals. Medical schools, medical researchers realize that they need to be aware of these different chemicals because their patients are asking about them and because they, they matter. They need to be incorporated into research studies so that we can better identify how to promote health.

Right.

Right.

So one of the things that I was shocked about, and I never really thought about, but when we built our home 21 years ago, and you were much more into toxins and toxicants at that point than I was. I wasn't really thinking about it, but I remember there were certain— that you insisted on using no VOC paint, and it was really hard to find 21 years ago. So what I'd love for— if you could talk for a few minutes about, or however long it takes, about building materials, furniture, cleaning products. What are the insidious, obvious, and not so obvious sources of how we're being harmed by the things we just do to our homes? Right. We, you know, build a home, renovate a home. How are we getting exposed?

Yeah. So this is something that I thought about personally a lot this summer because I redid one of the bathrooms in, in my home. And it's something that I work with clients on every single day, every week, is how to do— how to build healthier homes, how to renovate their homes in ways where they minimize their toxic exposures and, and don't create significant impairments to the air quality in their homes. So VOCs is something that we really need to think about, whether it's paints and caulks and sealants. And the, the cabinetry can emit VOCs. I mean, there's so many building products. Insulation is really— is a real big one. And what I do is I try to help my clients within any budget identify what are the biggest threats to the air quality for whatever project they're doing. If they are redoing a kitchen or a bathroom, or if they're building a whole home, what are the biggest threats to the air quality? Oftentimes that comes from insulation, from flooring, from cabinetry, paints, any types of sealants. And what I do is I help them identify within their budget What are better choices that they can make? And recognizing that probably any new build is not gonna be perfect, then how do they improve their air quality? Increasing circulation, adding air purifiers, how they can improve their air quality after their home is built. But one of the big things is actually the existing home and demolishing what is already there in a safe, in a safe way. My home was built in 1997. Most people would just demolish a 1997 bathroom without even thinking about how the demolition process itself might actually be a health threat. But the tiles in my 1997 bathroom had very high levels of lead. People think lead was removed in our homes in the late 1970s when it was regulated in paint. But people don't realize that even modern day tiles can have very high levels of lead. And when you're demolishing tiles, a lot of tiles in a big bathroom, that can create a substantial lead hazard. So we had our bathroom demolished before the work was done by a lead remediation company. And then we did clearance testing. We had— we did a lot of dust sampling for, for lead after the demolition was done. And it It mostly passed. There was one spot where there was a little bit too much lead for, for my comfort. It met current standards, but standards are going to change soon and it wouldn't in a short period of time. So we had them come back and clean thoroughly again. So we made sure that all of the lead was gone before the construction started creating the new bathroom. And then when I, when I chose the materials, I paid a lot of attention to things like PFAS. Things like volatile organic compounds, as well as lead and other heavy metals that, that could enter even a new modern build.

How would you know? How did you know your tiles contain lead? Because that's actually not something that I've really thought about. And actually, I think about it. We went to, we went to Barcelona and Portugal, and I tested all of the ceramics that I brought back, and they all had lead. And I was really mad because I wanted to have them as serving pieces. And now they're going to be decorative pieces in my office. But how would you know? How would you know that your tile has lead? Because obviously the surface of it would test negative.

Yeah, the surface of it would test negative. So we hired a certified lead inspector with an XRF gun, and you need an XRF gun to get under those, under the, the lower levels of the tile.

So is it, is it like a laser where he goes, okay, this is lighting up as lead, or is it You know, is it— or is he actually taking a sample of the tile and then sending it off?

Not a sample. It's like a— it's like a gun that he points. She actually points to the tile and it— and it reads the amount of lead in it.

Can you say the name of it so that we can put it in the show notes for people?

Yeah. The— so any— so if you— if you live in Massachusetts like we do, if you go onto the state website, there is a list of certified lead inspectors across the state that can come to your house with an XRF gun, and, and they can test your— the paint in your house and the tile. And that's really important because most homes these days, if you just did a swab of the top layer of paint, there's not going to be— there's not going to be lead, most likely, because unless your home hasn't been had any paint layers since, you know, the 1979. Exactly. And probably even in the 1970s, you know, lead had been pretty much removed from late— from paint before the regulations took place. So it's more like 19— realistically more like 1960s and earlier. But if you hire a lead inspector, they will come with an XRF gun and they will test all of the areas in your home that you want to have tested, and they can let you know where lead is present, even in the underneath layers. And then you can be really cognizant of especially friction surfaces. Friction surfaces are real substantial lead hazards, whether it be doors or window— excuse me, windows or other areas where lead can— where paint can wear away and expose those leaded areas.

Yeah, and I think we also want to remember, so there's a couple of things I want to highlight about what you're saying. One thing we want to remember is that if your whole house is painted, as the house settles, those joists, you know, where the wall meets the ceiling or the wall meets the floor, it's grinding into lead dust very subtly. And you'll pick that up either by eating it, breathing it, or absorbing it through your skin. So you're going to get lead exposures in ways. Or if you're a— I have a patient who's a weekend warrior and loves to cut into her walls. I'm like, Can you please stop cutting into your walls? You see her brother, he brought you the deer. So I was like, please stop cutting into the walls because the weekend warrior stuff is spiking her lead. I can always tell, you know, we do the testing and we provoke, and I can tell when she's done a weekend warrior project because her lead goes up. And I'm like, did you do a project? She's like, yeah. I'm like, cut it out. Literally, don't literally cut it out, just stop. And the other thing you highlighted that I want to underscore is that In, I think it was 1989, there was a study in also in Massachusetts done that, that showed that 1 out of every 6 deaths was implicated in either air quality or water quality or both. So you can't overstate the importance of your home air quality given that you spend hours, you know, every day, week, month, year you are in your house. And so air and water quality are also really important things to focus on.

So important because I mean, the major causes of death are cardiovascular disease and cancers, and air quality and water quality we know are highly related to your risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer and neurological diseases. Those are the biggest health threats that we face.

So can you say a little bit more about the difference between green, eco-friendly, and healthy? Because you distinguish that natural doesn't always mean it's good for you. So can you say more about that, please?

Yeah. So, I mean, none of these really have strict definitions. So there's that already, especially green. Green is left up to the interpretation. Anyone can say their product is green. There is no specific definition for it. Eco-friendly, I interpret as being more sort of products that might be sustainable and have environmental advantages, but not necessarily healthier and not always sort of environmentally healthy— healthier either. And What comes to mind right away is artificial turf. Artificial turf is known to have so many different carcinogens and neurotoxins in it. Heavy metals, PFAS, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. Yeah, I mentioned heavy metals like lead. There are so many toxins in artificial turf, and it's often touted as being an eco-friendly alternative because it allows us to use recycled tires on children's playgrounds, which is ridiculous to me. And but it provides a use for all of these old recycled tires. And people say that, oh, it reduces the need to use pesticides on playgrounds and lawns. So, you know, I feel like that's sort of a glaring example of a type of product that is often advertised being eco-friendly when it has— can have real severe health implications.

How much— when someone's renovating, how much can they do themselves versus hiring a professional?

Well, it depends on the person. I mean, you know, I'm the least handy person out there. I can't— I can barely change my own light bulbs. So to me, it's just— it's so impressive when I have clients who do work themselves. So I do have clients that actually do a lot of work themselves. They're really, really handy, and they, they come to me to, to advise them about the precautions that they need to take, especially when demolishing their current, you know, their current home or, and, and building anew. It's a skill. It's a real skill set. And especially like You know, when I think about all of the craftsmanship that went into the bathroom, my family's new bathroom, and all of the care that was taken to prevent mold in the future and to make sure that from a water leakage perspective, we were really, we were really being careful and safe. And, you know, people can get that, that knowledge, that background in many different ways. But if you want to protect your your home and your family, whether you're doing the work yourself or hiring someone, it's really important to be knowledgeable about all the different ways that building a home can in fact impact your family's health.

Yeah, I want to take a minute and go back because we talked about the presence of all these things and things like turf and paint. But I want to draw— I want to come full circle for the listeners so that they remember that Lead is a heavy metal and it's— you can get rid of it, but not everyone's good at it. And it loves to live in your bones and replace your normal bone architecture, which is a risk factor for osteopenia, osteoporosis. A, you're a specialist in brain health. Lead and other heavy metals are implicated in dementia, Alzheimer's, all types of cognitive dysfunction. And so we wanna remember that. And they're implicated in metabolic dysfunction. Any type of metabolic dysfunction. PCOS is included in that along with type 2 diabetes. And so, we're looking at this massive impact from things that you may be like, "Okay, right. I'm not going to hang out with lead." But, if it's in your exposure world along with mercury, the VOCs, all of these things have real clinical consequences. It's not just philosophical, it's real. And, given that we're noticing that autoimmune disease is spiking and cancer, not only cancer in general, but cancer at younger ages is spiking. The only real common denominator is our environment. So we need to honor, like, it's coming from somewhere. It's not just magical. We're not genetically wrong. We're just reacting to all the things we're getting exposed to.

Yeah. I mean, so lead is a known proven neurotoxin. There's no ambiguity about this and there's no, known safe level of lead. They, you know, any exposure to lead is understood to be harmful, and it is so neurotoxic at such minute levels that we actually forget that it's associated with so many different health outcomes. It is associated with cardiovascular health. It is a carcinogen, and that often gets overshadowed by its neurotoxicity and all of the strong evidence and everything. We talk about lead primarily as a neurotoxin, especially compared to cadmium and arsenic are also neurotoxins, but we often really focus on their carcinogenic potential because that is sort of such a big threat from arsenic and cadmium. But really all of them are neurotoxic and carcinogenic. And our exposure to lead has decreased dramatically over the past several decades. And so we think we've sort of solved it, but we haven't. We're still exposed to way too much lead. And so many children are still, are still lead poisoned. You know, I think there's this sort of common perception in the late 1970s, we sort of got lead out of our homes, but, but we haven't. It's not like VOCs. It's not like air quality where it outgasses from our home like it doesn't go anywhere. If lead was in your home, whether it be in the paint or in your tiles or anywhere in your home, it's really prevalent. It's not going anywhere unless you demolish it, unless you remove it. And even then you can actually create a bigger problem. And lead is common in a lot of our household items as well. And it's highly prevalent in our food. These days, one of the biggest exposure sources for most people is actually what they eat.

Is this because it's in the soil? Like, it's California soil. I know that's very high in thallium. Is it also lead?

Soil across the country and soil from other countries. I mean, you know, it was used so much in so many different— in so many different ways for so long that it's absolutely in our soil. And, you know, people are like, oh, that's naturally occurring, occurring lead. That's no— that's not better. You know, the lead from our spinach is that we eat in our spinach or that we eat in our sweet potatoes is still lead. And it doesn't really actually matter where it comes from. It doesn't matter if it came from the soil that your food was grown in or the water that was used to irrigate the soil that your food was grown in, or if it came from the packaging that your food was packaged in. Lead is lead.

And I think the really important thing that I will add as a provider, because you're doing the You're doing the, how do we diminish your exposure on a global scale? We're looking at what's actually in your body and what's clinically relevant. So, we're testing. So, I'm a huge proponent of test, don't guess. Understand how good of a detoxer are you? How's your MTHFR? What are the other factors going into this? Did your mom— because you're getting 50% of whatever your mom had. So, Was your mom someone who grew up at a time when there was lead and mercury and less pesticides but more heavy metals type things? And test your body because we can— it's not the holy grail. You can't say you have exactly this amount, but you can say low, medium, high, you should be worried about this. We can test for the PFAS, all of the phthalates, the styrene. We can test for, uh, gasoline fumes, we can test for, uh, airline fuel, we can test for all of these things, flame retardants, we can test for them. So I'm a huge proponent of if you're worried, test, don't guess, test.

I, I mean, I have a lot of clients who've gotten a lot of sort of reassurance when they, when they have, have tested, and that reduces their anxiety, which improves their detox, by the way, right?

Because your, your stress shuts down your detox. So it all over helps.

And sometimes it actually can oddly help motivate them to reduce their exposure. If they already feel like they're doing well, it actually can sometimes provide a motivation to keep going and making more changes to their environment. And it helps people prioritize what exposures to tackle in their homes because nobody has an unlimited budget. And it helps them decide where they put their mental resources, where they invest their limited finances. And a lot of times the changes that people— that I recommend people make in their homes actually don't cost anything. It's identifying what to get rid of in your homes. And, you know, it's not— it's oftentimes donating to other people. People will feel guilty donating items that have, you know, environmental toxins, whether it's china that has lead in it or it's plastic toys. And what I tell people is everyone has different priorities. You know, if you have someone who wants to buy something, you can't say, oh, there's no lead in this. If there actually is, that would be unethical. But there are plenty of people who, who want and are okay with having china in their home that has lead. And it's not our position to say, no, you can't. Can't have that. You know, people are allowed to choose whatever the exposures that they want. And many people, you know, many people embrace plastic toys and other people say no plastic toys in my house. And it's better to donate the plastic toys that you have in your house to people who really want them in their homes because otherwise people are just consuming more new plastic toys. You know, I tell people there's nothing wrong with donating. You're giving away your mattress that you might be getting rid of because there's flame retardants in it. There are other people who would, who would go out and get a different mattress that has flame retardants and, and are okay with, with that product. And that's okay because we all are okay with, you know, different exposures in our lives. Nobody can, nobody can do it all perfectly.

Is there anything that Ed and I, or I haven't asked you that people really need to know before we close it up?

So I guess the big question that people come to me and ask is, where do I start? What do I— like, what should I, what should I prioritize? And so this is my non-answer to that, that question. So what I tell people is, you know, you should start with the products that you think make the biggest difference. If you in your heart think that your makeup is— that's where it's at, that's where you should focus, then overhaul your makeup. If you think it's your cookware, that's where a lot of people feel motivated, then focus on your, on your cookware. If you think it's your clothing, focus on your clothing. If you are tackling the exposure sources that you think are the most relevant, you will have a big impact because you will feel so empowered. You will feel like you're doing a really great job. It'll have a psychological benefit, which will have a huge, huge benefit for your health. So I tell people to focus on the areas where they— that they are motivated to change. And I tell people, focus on the areas that cause the least amount of stress. You know, if you been using the same deodorant since you were in middle school and you think it works so well. And the idea of like not wearing that deodorant every day makes you feel nervous about going out into the world. Don't think about that, that deodorant. Think about other things because the goal is to reduce exposure to toxic chemicals, not— it's impossible to eliminate it. And it's actually not— it's not necessary and it's not the right approach. And I tell people to focus on making changes when, like you mentioned, when they're already needing to go out and get a new couch or go out and get a new mattress or new clothes or, you know, baby gear, whatever it is. There are some products that we replace really frequently, you know, whether it's the tin foil or the plastic wrap or whatever, the food packaging we use in our homes, the cleaning products, the personal care products, those we change out pretty frequently, a couple of times a year. So we're able to tackle those sort of more quickly. And then other big prod— other big products are things that we might replace once every 10 years or 20 years. And that, that's where we need to sort of think a little bit more carefully. And I tell people to prioritize products that go in and on our bodies and in particular impact the most vulnerable people in our families. So whether that be children or pregnant people, people with immune deficiencies or other health conditions, prioritize the exposures that are most impacting the most vulnerable people in your families. And so that's what a lot of people sort of come to me for, though. They'll come to me to help them make decisions and, you know, especially financial, you know, where to spend their money. But sort of where do I begin? How do I start this? It feels so overwhelming. And I tell people, Focus on the decisions also that you feel really confident in. If you feel really confident, if you're like, oh, I don't know about, you know, this, this brand of— I think I'm trying to think of a good example. You know, this brand of floor cleaner versus that brand of floor cleaner. I don't know which one's better, but I'm really confident that, you know, the dish— about, you know, a dish soap choice. Focus on the decisions that you're really— that you're really confident in and those that you aren't. Ask for help, or just buy what most people use. Because if you— anytime you're not sure, you shouldn't really go against the grain. You're, you're likely to, to regret those decisions in, in my, in my experience with clients.

Yeah, I always recommend phoning a friend, like go on EWG or, uh, Think Dirty. Go on those sites and, and run it by it. You know, my kids are like— I'm like, I've never heard of that brand. She said it's rated number 1. It's rated as a 1 on EWG. I'm like, fine, I don't need to know the brand as long as you've looked it up and you're confident that it's actually safe.

So, okay, totally, totally. There's so many— I have a very, very active Facebook group where people ask questions all day long, product recommendations, random questions. I chime in with not all, but a lot of them. And there I have thousands of really knowledgeable people in my group that chime in with recommendations. And I'm not the only one. There's plenty of places like that on social media where you can get really great, um, Great advice.

So speaking of that, we'll put this all in the show notes. Where can people find you?

Yes. So people can find me. My Facebook page is called A Green Slate. I have a really active Facebook group with thousands of really smart, awesome people. That's called A Green Slate Community. You can find me on Instagram, A Green Slate Consulting. My website is pretty basic, but it's there, agreenslate.com. And my name is Dr. Hannah Gardner. So you can also Google me and find ways to contact me as well.

Sweet. Hannah, this has been an awesome conversation. Thank you. Thanks for joining us. And I mean, for the listeners, thanks for joining us and get started, right? Don't wait to transform your health to, to get started. Don't wait another minute to start because you can start small and then get big.

Yes, absolutely. Start small, start gradual. And I'm here to help people reduce their stress while making small, easy changes.

That's awesome. Thank you, Hannah. It's been great.

Thank you. Thank you so much.

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