Reduce the Toxins in Your House, with Dr. Vivian Chen

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Five Journeys podcast Live like youe Matter. I'm Dr. Wendy Trubo, this is Dr. Ed Levitan. And I'm so excited to be interviewing our guest today, Dr. Vivian Chen. She is a board certified UK medical doctor with 15 years of clinical experience who now lives in California with her family. And I'm going to let her tell you about the personal stuff. But when she moved to San Francisco, she decided to make it her mission to help people reduce their toxic load because she believes environmental toxins to be one of the most important root causes. Not discussed enough. And you all know that this is near and dear to our heart. So first off, Vivian, welcome to the show.

Well, thank you so much for having me, Ed and Wendy.

Yeah, we're so excited.

Yeah, no, it's very exciting. We met about a year ago.

No, it was only like six months ago, really. I know. Just so much has happened.

I have not yet found MDs as passionate about environmental, Environmental toxins as me. So it was love at first sight for sure.

Totally. So I know this is personal for you. Can you. Are you comfortable sharing a little about what set you off on this passion play?

Yes, of course. And you know, I'm sure most MDs who have opened their eyes to the impact environmental toxins can have on our health have their own journey. So mine started with my daughter, actually. She. So she stopped feeding when she was eight weeks old and had to be hospitalized and tube fed. And leading up to that, she was struggling to breastfeed. She would latch on and then come off and arch her back in pain. And with that presentation, she was diagnosed with reflux. Put on reflux medications one after another to maximum doses. Nothing worked. Eventually they did a ph study which is the gold standard for diagnosing reflux, and that turned out to be normal. So the pediatricians were completely stumped. I was stumped at that point. I had put all my faith and trust into her medical team. But when she lost so much weight from dehydration, from not feeding and had to be hospitalized, my whole world turned upside down because, you know, there she was, the most important thing in the world to me, the person I wanted to help the most. I could not help. And so that really started me on this journey of trying to find answers to help save her life. And I came across this paper from 1983 about how cow's milk protein allergy could actually manifest as feeding aversion. Exactly. Her presentation took the paper to her team and they agreed to switch her milk to neokay, which is a hypoallergenic formula. And within a week she was better. And then after that, of course, the question was, so she has cow's milk protein allergy, it seems. Why does she get it? Because I don't have any allergies. It doesn't seem like there's any genetic predisposition to that. So why did she get it? And of course, her team said it's probably just one of those things is bad luck.

Or that's the bucket for what we.

Don'T know about just one of those things.

And was it idiopathic?

Right, Idiopathic. Iatrogenic. Just. Just kidding. But yeah, it was just not satisfactory for me to accept that as an answer. So I went digging again down this really deep rabbit hole. One thing led to another, and it turns out that many environmental toxins can actually impact our immune system and swing the two arms. Th1 Th2 arm of the immune system towards the allergenic arm. Or for some people, it's the autoimmune arm. And so that's kind. My segue into this whole area began.

How rude was the awakening thing?

Yes. Yes, it was. It was not. It was. It was very painful, actually. You know, I'm sure you guys feel that too. You know, when you spend your entire life training, so much money and so much energy, time involved, training and really invested in this modality that you feel like is, you know, you're using to help people. And then you realize that, hang on a minute, there's a big chunk that's missing that I didn't learn. I feel. I felt cheated, I have to say, at the time. But, you know, I'm. I'm over that. I feel like there's a place for everything. There's a place for western conventional medicine that we were trained in. There's also a place for everything else. Like, can we combine everything into a two box? That's truly integrative. I think that's where magic happens.

I mean, so your daughter clearly had a very clear reaction to toxins that showed up for her. Like. Like a slap in the face. Right? It was. You couldn't ignore it. But are there other things for people who are listening, who maybe didn't have that experience, but they're listening and thinking, well, could toxins be important for me?

What.

What are the things that might not hit them quite so strongly, but are things that you can link back to? Tox might think that they're unrelated.

Right? Yeah. So that's then my story which actually preceded my daughter's story. But I just didn't know. Like many people, we don't know the connection between environmental toxins and health. And many of the symptoms are insidious. They're not abrupt and acute, like what happened with my daughter. They're just things that kind of like, you know, just ling, you know, niggle at you. They're not quite enough to make you to impact your life to a point where you can't work or you can't do the things you want to, but, you know, maybe make you a little bit more tired. And it's like that gradual decline where you, it's. It's like when you watch your kids grow up, right, you never know that they're gaining height and then your relative or friends come along, they're like, oh my goodness, so and so has grown so much. And you're like, really? I didn't notice. It's that kind of thing where when you're getting small symptoms day by day, you don't really register it, but they're niggling away at you. Brain fog, fatigue, very common hormone, is a huge area where in toxins, we have so much research now backing that up. The area of endocrine disruptor metabolism, weight regulation. We have chemicals being coined obesogens now. That's actually found an article on the NIH website about that. So it is now more and more widely accepted. It's not woo woo anymore. There is scientific evidence backing it up. And I think depending on your genetic predisposition, again, your symptoms might be different. So for some of us, we might be more prone to blood sugar regulation or hormone disruption. Someone else might be more prone to brain fog, memory issues, energy. And it just comes up differently for different people.

So I want to kind of make sure to highlight something you said because I know we're talking in the realm of conventional and not conventional medicine. This what, what you're talking about is actually peer reviewed, studied. There's no woo woo here. It's not what we, any of us trained in. So it's outside the fold of quote unquote, regular medicine. But there's no woo woo.

Like and it's just undiscovered, right? Like the earth is actually round.

It's fully discovered. Just doctors are 20, 30 years behind science. Right? It's fully discovered. So this is, this is all fully documented and document up the kazoo.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Doctors just don't want to. Don't.

Haven't gotten there yet. Sure, let's leave it there.

Let's go there.

Yeah. You don't know what you don't know.

Right.

And I was. I was there once. My own journey, my daughter's journey. Bright shined a light on things that I didn't know, and I'm grateful for it. And I'm sure the same for you guys, too.

Yeah, Yeah.

I mean, I always say to anyone who has diabetes or PCOS or metabolic syndrome, like, we have a toxins issue here. And they look at me like, no, I'm like, no, trust me, here we have a toxins issue that we need to untangle.

Yeah.

What were you going to say?

Well, I just wanted to harp. Go back just in terms of part of. I think the reason why current medical science ignores it is because there's no medication that you can take.

Well, when you have seven minutes, I don't mean to defend it, but when you have seven minutes, you can't deal with a lifestyle change because it takes longer than seven minutes, which is the plug for functional medicine. But. So they're not bad. They simply don't have the tools to be able to execute against doing that.

Right?

100%. Yeah. That's precisely why I decided not to get my medical license here and continue my path in conventional medicine, because my passion is more with getting to the root cause, spending more time with my clients, digging at things that caused their symptoms in the first place and trying to work around that.

And you're. You're such a guru on personal health products, toxins, cleaning up your home. I want to talk about this because, I mean, I follow you on Instagram and everything you post, I'm like, viv is brilliant. Oh, everything comes out. So first of all, the plug is follow you on Instagram because you're amazing. So how did you. How did you start to recognize that there were problems, Problems with personal care issues? Like, what was that moment where you went, oh, oh, what happened?

Well, it started slowly, I have to say. You know, at first I read about parabens and, you know, the link between that and potentially being involved in breast cancer. And then. And then I realized, hang on a minute. When I moved here, actually, so many of the ingredients are different in the product. Exact same product I used to use in the uk. Completely different ingredient list in the US what's going on here? That was a real shock to me. And food too. For example, Doritos has very different ingredient list in the UK compared to the U.S. then I realized, wow, the regulations in the U.S. around what chemicals are allowed in our everyday products, even in our food are completely different.

Let's pause for once. Worse. Let's just be really clear. Worse. Way worse than the U.S. i know you're skirting around that, but I just want to be clear.

Yeah, I mean it's pretty much non existent.

Sorry, I didn't interrupt, but I just wanted to be really clear.

Well, let's drill into that. The EPA reviews thing, reviews substances. If the company reports that they think there might be a problem. But who's going to report? That's, that's just. You have no motivation to say I think my product might be toxic.

Right, exactly.

So the EPA really has no teeth to say you can't bring it to market unless you're clear it's safe as opposed to not clear that it's not harming.

Exactly. You hit the nail on the head there. That's exactly. I mean that's the way it is in the eu. We have the precautionary principle there that if there's any suggestion it might be harmful, it cannot be used. And the onus is on the companies to prove that it is safe before they can use it. And as a result they've banned 1300 ingredients in cosmetic personal care products. Whereas here I think we've got up to now maybe 11. It was, it was nine a few years back when I first discovered. So that's a huge, huge gap there. Right. And yeah, so that's how I first got into and realized I need to protect myself if I live in the US because the regulations are not there to help protect us. I mean the EU is not perfect, but at least there is something there. Right. But whereas here it's just like, well, you got to learn to read labels by yourself, which really shouldn't be the consumer's job. I don't think that's fair. Like you actually need a degree in chemistry, green chemistry and toxicology really to be able to decipher the nuances of different ingredients. But yeah, unfortunately that's the case now. But it's become an industry, a new industry called Green Beauty, where I think places like Target, Sephora have jumped on the bandwagon and realized, oh, oh, consumers seem to want non toxic products. Let me create a new line.

More expensive, don't forget new. More expensive.

But it is more expensive when you outlaw the cheap stuff. It does cost more money. I feel like we're at odds today. I'm defending the doctors and defending the more expensive.

I love it, I love it. But you know what? This is what's necessary in a conversation we need to see both sides. Right. And then we, we need to see all the information and then we come to our conclusions. I love that you are on different.

Sides, opposite side of the fence. So have you noticed a theme where, okay, in beauty products, these are the products that you want to be careful of, or is it really every product? Because I think it's every product.

Yeah, it really is. So first of all, I think the biggest issue is with preservatives and fragrance. In cosmetic and personal care products, those are the two main things. Like, if you have no idea about chemistry, just go out and try and look for unscented if possible. Because fragrance, term fragrance, can actually hide hundreds, if not thousands of different chemicals. Many of them are endocrine disruptors, meaning they disrupt our hormones. And the other thing is preservatives. And so if you look for a product that's, you know, the first ingredient is aqua water, usually that requires quite a bit of preservatives. Right. And then, you know, that's when we get into issues with things like parabens needing to be used. And of course, there are better ones now, but usually the irritants and the hormone disruptors are the preservatives and the fragrances. So if you can find a product without fragrance and it's oil based, that tends to be safer.

That's such a great guideline, right, Vivian? Because you can, you can recognize water.

Mm.

I know for myself, I mean, this is our passion play. And even I struggle with reading labels. And I, when I look at a label, especially if I have my contacts in, and I'm kind of like, you know, this postmenopausal arm's length thing, and it's tiny print and I'm like, I can't see it. It looks like ants on a page and it all just blends together. So I think it's great to look at if water is the first ingredient or one of the first few ingred, it needs to be preserved. It's a great kind of guideline.

Yeah, yeah. So I tend to use oil based products without water. And then usually with those ones, you don't need the preservatives in general.

Now let's talk about the home. What are the things that people need to really look out for and manage in their home? What are the most common sources of toxins?

I think air is probably the biggest place to start. So again, going back to fragrance, scented products, your air fresheners, candles, incense, those things really pollute our air. Like, we be marketed to believe that when A place smells nice because of the sprays that is clean, but actually it's even more dirty if you spray those air fresheners around because the chemicals in these air fresheners are, you know, it's much like smoking, except it smells different. Right. The impact on our body, on our lung, you know, as a cause for inflammation, endocrine disruption is huge. And now that I've been without, living without sense for a number of years now, when I smell it again, like for example, when I get into Uber and they have those, you know, air fresheners, it's an intense, like immediate migraine trigger for me because my body now recognizes that. Like, oh, you know, red flag, red flag. But I feel like when you're exposed to it constantly, you don't, you don't tend to notice the effects so much. So that's probably where I would start first. Like, you know, if you're still using plug ins, spraying air fresheners instead. Open your windows, get rid of those. Open your windows to freshen, truly freshen the air inside your home. And if you can afford it, air purifier.

I'll put a plug for essential oils if you have to have a smell.

Yes.

But it's a pure essential oil.

I was just thinking of like burning cinnamon. Insider. Oh, yeah. Because that's natural. But I will point out in 1989, so we're almost 40 years from the study and 1989 study pointed showed that air or water quality was associated with one in every six deaths. And I'm sure it's gone up because we've only gotten more toxins and chemicals since 1989.

Wow.

Wow. So one in every six deaths can be directly attributable to air or water. So there's data for this. It's old, even data.

It's old data.

It's old data and it's only gotten.

Worse, I'm sure from 1989.

1989. And it was a Boston study.

You need to share that study with me because I have been reading seen more recent studies like, you know, studies linking air pollution to worse outcomes in COVID 19, for example, so. And then, you know, cancers and definitely mortality rate, but not, I didn't know from even back then where, as you said, not as many chemicals in the environment back then.

I'll have to dig it up. I think I did it for Terry Wahl's talk. I'm pretty sure I did it for that. And that was last June. So let me pull that up. Yes, please find it for you.

Yeah. That's incredible.

Yeah. Okay, so air.

And then as you mentioned, what do.

You recommend for water that people.

Well, water is actually difficult to make a blanket recommendation for everyone because everyone's water is different depending on where you live. So the first thing I would suggest if you live in the US is actually to go to Google tap in, sorry, type in tap water database. And the EWG Environmental Working Group has a database where you can plug in your zip code and it will pull up your municipal water report. And in fact if you can't find that, you can actually just call your water supplier and they are obliged federally to provide you with an up to date water report which shows what's in your drinking water, what they tested for. And by the way, they're only required by law to test for I think around 93 different chemicals. And we know there's way more than that, but it's a good place to start. I don't think they currently test for PFAS yet. Wa.

Pick me, Vivian, pick me. Some of them do. And a week ago it was signed into law that all municipalities must keep it under two. And say the EPA years ago said it was 70.

Yeah, but I think that not all of them have started yet. I think it takes some time to roll out. But yeah, you're right.

I'm gonna do something I don't usually do, but I'm gonna disagree with our guests.

What? See, we are in different things because.

I actually believe so we live in Newton, which Massachusetts, and it has one of the best water qualities in the country. And we put in a whole house filter water filter.

Because when I went through this I was like, we gotta fix our water, we gotta fix our air. I went nuts because I was so.

We have a great municipal water system and when we change our filters, it was filthy. Black. Yeah, just filthy. Full of like. And that's what we actually have. I think we posted Instagram.

We did post it.

Right.

And that's a good quality. And I'm going to say the majority of people are not good quality. So I'm going to say everybody needs.

A water filter to the best of your budget. Filter your water to the best of your budget.

Yeah, I mean, I think the issue is the fact that they only required by law to monitor for so few chemical contaminants. Right. Like 93 versus the thousand. So yeah, you're right. But I mean, supposedly the 93 are the most impactful on our health and most dangerous. But yeah, I think in an ideal situation, but I get this on Instagram a lot is that people start to feel really despondent and kind of hopeless when I start saying everybody needs to get a belt and they feel like they can't afford it. And so it's kind of like, well, okay, why don't you find out what's in your tap water first and take it from there.

At least fill, at least do an under counter or your drinking water should.

Be fine over the. A countertop.

Right, A countertop.

A countertop, a picture. Around 40, 50 bucks. They don't filter out everything, but, you know.

Yeah, exactly. I always feel like something's better than nothing.

Right. Because even if the municipality does a decent job, then who knows what's happening in the pipes in between.

Correct.

How old the pipes are and blah, blah, blah.

10 million still has a lot of.

Lead in our old homes. Right. Yeah.

Right. So it's one of those, like, yeah, there's an ideal, but there's a minimum also of you really need to filter water.

Yeah. Especially if you're going to eliminate the plastic water bottles, which for me would be like, don't drink from plastic water bottles and do something to filter the water you're drinking at the very minimum to the best of your budget.

I don't, I really, you know, I, I, I live in this neighborhood where a lot of people have water delivered, you know, in this, those big plastic things and they're like sitting out there on the, baking in the sunlight. And I'm like, well, I want to knock on their doors and say, please stop doing this, please. Just like, it's cheaper to, to invest in a water filter than to constantly buy water. And then you don't even know whether they properly filtering the water anyway. Most of them can't even give you water reports.

Our neighbor sprays glyphosate on his yard. He has the nicest yard. And he and his dad lie on the ground and pick out the weeds. So I thought that that's how their yard was so nice. And then one day I see him going around the yard with Roundup and I thought, oh, oh, they're just picking out the dead weeds. And I was thinking, I said to Ed, do I say something? Probably not, because, like, he hasn't, but it kills me.

Oh, God, please don't do that. I know, right?

Because that's glad to see.

Very, very tough. I don't know why that stuff is still legal, honestly, on all shelves.

I know, I know. So, okay, so air and water and then what are some other sort of big things that people should look at in their home.

Yeah. The next step would be food, I think, is, you know, we eat well between three pounds to five pounds of food a day. So that would be the next kind of most common source of environmental toxin exposure. And so we're talking, you know, talking about pesticides here, of course, but also, you know, in food packaging. Now we know that a lot of the chemicals in the food packaging, pfas, BPA or BPA replacement, like bpf, bps, are actually transferring into the food. So, you know, it's again, very depressing. I get there's a lot from my Instagram followers like, oh, my God, there's no, there's no end to this. Like, every day you're talking about something else. And the thing to remember is that we're talking about, I mean, I'm highlighting different exposure. Doesn't mean that you have to avoid all exposures. Right. Like, it's good just to know where these exposures are coming from. So you can take steps, even if it's just one or two, to minimize exposure, but doesn't mean that you now have to completely stop buying every food that's wrapped in plastic from the grocery store. Do what you can, right? If you go to the market and they have fresh whatever you're buying, like meat or fish, they can wrap it in paper that will probably be better than wrapping it in the plastic Saran wrap that they usually found in. And then, you know, finding brands that haven't been contaminated with PFAS in their packaging. Although I think that it's going to get harder and harder because I think it's just everywhere. Now with that, let's talk about this.

Vivian, because it really is living on this earth is what I have referred to as death by a thousand cuts. Throughout your day, you're exposed to small or large amounts of hundreds to thousands of chemicals. So it's never a conversation of toxin free, even though that feels good, like, oh, I'll be toxin free. But it's not about that. It's actually about reducing the major sources so that your body can deal with the other 300 chemicals it's exposed to.

300,000.

I know, I know. I'm trying to make it a hopeful conversation, but basically trying to reduce as much as possible. So it's not perfection. It's simply reduction so that your body's not so overloaded 100%.

But that's. I think that is the major point. Like, the bottom line is we, our bodies are health. If our bodies are healthy, we can deal with a lot of toxins or.

Some toxins, because it depends how they are. Right.

We can deal with a decent amount of toxins. Not, not if we live a kind of standard American life.

Right.

But if we are mindful, our bodies can deal with it. And then if we talk about detox and making sure that we're doing everything we can to detoxify on a regular basis, we don't have to worry about, okay, this one, maybe the cut of meat and the Saran wrap looks really amazing. And that's the thing that we get.

And that's the one you won't pick a fight with.

Right.

So let's talk about detox.

So let's talk about detox.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's, that's a great way to segue into detox because you can't avoid toxins. 100. And like you said, some of us can handle toxins better than us. Some of us can detox better than others just based on our genetics too. Right. You know, even just methylation pathways.

So I'm not one of those people.

We are the canaries in the coal mine thing. So, yeah, I think detoxes are such a, such a, what's the word? Taboo topic, especially with conventional MDs. Because, you know, every time my clients talk about detox with a mds, they just get the eye roll like, oh dear. But you know, the fact is there is science, there is an exact science to how the body detoxes. And we learn about this at medical school. We learn about the cyclone P450 enzymes and all the rest and how the kidneys work. So it's kind of about supporting those rather than taking the snake oil, like drink 5 million cups of this tea and you get rid of the toxins type of conversation. Right.

Well, we learned in medical school the detox pathways because it relates to how we detox medications.

Yes, exactly.

But if you think about it, if we can detox a lot of the medications, which I'm going to say are pretty poisonous, we can detox a lot of other things.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, totally. So it's about supporting those pathways and with real science based methods rather than there is a lot of rubbish out there that doesn't work.

So what is your approach? How would you approach detox? How would you view it? What, what would you recommend?

Yeah, so I, I always start with lifestyle and food and before I even move to medicine, to supplements. So lifestyle. You know, I look at the key, detox organs. The gut is actually, I think the biggest one that people miss. People like jamming down detox supplements, binders. And they're not pooping, right? Or they have dysbiosis where they have leaky gut and the toxins are just leaking back into the body, or the endotoxins are actually blocking their liver pathways and they don't even know. So taking binders is not even gonna do anything for you when your gut is not working properly. So I actually start with, with the gut and making sure, like, my clients are pooping regularly and they're proper poops. Like Bristol Square.

Bristol.

Yeah, exactly. Not like, you know, rabbit droppings and just we need long sausage shape, normal poops.

And every day, when you say regularly, that's every day. Even though you and I, it's assumed. But people are listening, go, I poop once a week. That's regular. No, at least once a day, if not more.

Yes, yes, at least once or twice a day. And then do you have symptoms of leaky gut? Right? Like, how's your skin? How's your mental clarity? Do you have bloating, digestive symptoms? Because I feel like with things like pesticides and glyphosate lurking around, it is really easy for the gut to become leaky. Like, these things we know attack our gut lining. And so trying to work on that. And when you minimize the exposure, you are helping that gut lining heal too. But also adding in foods that can help as well. And then actually at the same time, talk a lot about stress reduction or stress management, because I feel like when your body is in that sympathetic dominant state, all your detox pathways are down, regulated anyway because the body thinks, oh, I need to survive. Forget detox. Like, let me just run away from this tiger first. Right? So I, I do a lock around mind, mind body connection too.

Is that through meditation and yoga or something else?

It's whatever. It looks like whatever the client would do, right? Because some people just cannot meditate and they just like, no, I'm just not gonna do it. Just can't do it. So it's like, then, okay, something like mindful based. Like, you know, going for a mindful based walk or. Yeah, like breath work. I find that breath work works for the people who can't meditate really well because they're doing something, something active that they have to engage in rather than just like sitting and doing nothing and they feel like they're doing nothing and then their mind wanders and they're like, okay, I'm. I'm done. So, yeah, breath work works really well. For some people. And I really feel like the diaphragmatic movement can really help with circulation, hepatic circulation as well, which is really important. That's what I have my clients doing a lot. They have to work on the gut first and their stress management before we even go to the liver. I'd love to hear from you guys as well what your approach is.

I would say it mirrors that. And because we try to work people through this, I mean, if someone. I think of it like a pyramid, right? So the foundational behaviors are your gut health, your food, your stress management, your sleep, your movement and your pooping. So you can't move on to what I'll call higher order detox with really focusing on the metals and the mycotoxins and the alternate other toxins until you've handled your body, because otherwise you're just going to feel terrible. So we absolutely mirror that. I just, you know, it's just sort of like I think of it, there's the base of the pyramid, the foundational work, and then here's that, that advanced work. You can't get to that until you've taken the first classes and mastered them, gotten an A plus in them.

Right.

I 1000% agree. And the one thing I'll add, which is one my first mentor taught me, is you want to address the symptom the person came in with and have them feel better as soon as you can so that they start to trust you. And then you can go back to the figure out the gut and the stress and everything else. Because if they don't get a result and they don't trust you, you can't help them with everything else. So.

And if they come in with 10 tacks that they're sitting on, you're really up a creek because.

Well, who doesn't? Let me ask that. If you get rid of two, they'll feel a difference. They will feel well, but they'll feel a difference.

You're absolutely right. They need to have feel that reward of some kind of a reward to get the dopamine going before they invest more and more time and energy into your plan. So, yeah, that's a really great point.

How long does it typically take people to notice a difference when they start these protocols with you or this work with you?

It really depends on the person. I feel like it depends on how sick they are to begin with and how heavy their toxic load is. But yeah, it can be a week. Some people, like, I have a course. So the students sometimes say, like, oh my goodness, After a couple days of just doing regular meditation and optimizing my sleep, I feel instantly better. And of course they do. Who doesn't feel better after sleeping and less stress? So I. Yeah, I feel like, you know, when they feel that reward, they start to be like, okay, now let me look at my food, and what can I do there to improve my symptoms? So, yeah, Ed is absolutely on the. On the spot there.

It's very cool.

Okay, I'm right once.

You're always right, honey. Is there anything we haven't asked you that you want to make sure that we get into this discussion? Feels like it's been wide ranging, but I just want to make sure. Is there anything outstanding?

I don't think so. I mean, I just love the work you guys are doing. I think it's so important. More and more so. And we need more people to spread this message, actually, because it is still really, you know, I'm still being called a quack on. By MDS on Instagram and saying, you know, there's no. This is pseudoscience and it's not. So. Yeah. I just want to thank you guys for shining a spotlight on this, for writing your Dirty girl book, which is so amazing. And, yeah, like, if we can, we just need to work together to get this message out to more people, I think.

Yeah, totally agree. I heard a rumor that you might have a gift for our audience. Is that true?

Oh, a gift. So I have a quiz, like, so if you're worried, if you're wondering whether your detox pathways are open, I have a quiz that will help you kind of go through and see whether your detox pathways might be blocked. And it's really important if they're blocked, that you unblock them before you jump into supplements. So take the quiz if you're interested. Interested. And then there's like, you know, emails and a masterclass, a free masterclass where I actually go through the detox pathways in more detail and kind of give you steps on how to unblock them. So the URL is www.joindetoxrite quiz. And I'll pass that link to you so you can put in the show notes as well.

We'll definitely put it in the show notes.

How can people connect to you?

Because people are Instagram.

I mean, thank you. Yes. Instagram, I'm very active on. So my handle there's at Plateful Health. So P L A T E f u l.h e a L T H. And then I also have a website, www.playfulhealth.com. i have a lot of blogs there. I also have an email list, so you can join my email list there where I do a deeper dive. So Instagram I like. It's more, you know, you're limited to one and a half minutes in your real right. Just kind of the headlines. But for the deeper dives, I have blog posts and emails.

That's great.

Awesome.

Okay.

It's been a privilege.

Vivian, thank you so much for being here. I love talking to you all. I always love talking to you. And so a from the bottom of our hearts, thank you for joining this episode.

Thank you so much. I loved talking to you guys. You guys are definitely on the same mission as me. So very, very excited about your summit coming up. Can't wait to share that with my audience.

Thank you. And for the listeners, thank you for joining us for this episode of the Five Journeys podcast live. Like you matter. Our guest today is Dr. Vivian Chen, and all the links will be in the show notes. Thank you for being here, Vivian.

Thank you so.

Much, Sam.