Reignite Intimacy And Sex Through Curiosity, with Dr. Elliot Kronenfeld

Welcome to the Five Journeys podcast Live. Like you matter. We are delighted to be back here today, and I'm so excited to introduce our guest, Elliot Cronenfeld. I've got a cheat sheet so I don't screw anything up. Elliot is a licensed clinical social worker and certified sex therapist for individuals, couples, and families that are dealing with issues that might inhibit future growth and happiness. He's earned an Ms. In Communications and an MSW from Simmons University and a PhD in Human Sexuality from the California Institute of Integral Studies. That is quite a mouthful. And he's the author of book. I'm sorry, Let me resay that. He is the author of the book Couples by Intention. Elliot, welcome. I'm so excited to have you here today. So is Ed, too.

I'm feeling a little inadequate because she's really excited to have you.

Crawling over you.

It's okay. I feel the energy. I'm feeling the love. It's all good.

Yeah, right?

It's all good.

So I think that. I think that you were kind enough to say yes to this, because I really wanted to talk about sex and intimacy. I think I pestered you till you said yes.

Oh, my God. It's my favorite topic.

So tell me. Let's just dive in. Why does infinite. Why does intimacy get less over time?

Well, you know, part of it is because we start taking each other for granted. See, you know, one of the sexiest things in the world is anticipation. God, anticipation is so sexy. Like, go back to the early part of your relationship, you know, when you're thinking, like, you know, long ago. Right, right. So. So, Ed, you're thinking, like, wow, is she going to wear that silky dress again? You know, the one that makes her rack look really nice? Because I like that. And. And Wendy, you're thinking, like, you get into my. I got you. I got you. Right? And Wendy, you're thinking, like, is he gonna wear those tight jeans that make his ass look really hot? Right? Because I want to know, like, if I call, is she gonna pick up the phone? Is she gonna sleep over? Like, what am I gonna get tonight? Am I gonna get any? Like, I don't know. And that kind of anticipation, it's super sexy, right? But what ends up happening is, over time, some of that anticipation starts to go away. Are you going to sleep over? You're there every damn night. I know what you look like in the morning. We start to lose the sense of anticipation. And then life starts to become more complicated because we become less focused on each other because we start building this Much more complicated life together, and we lose anticipation.

Does that fall into novelty, too? Is anticipation different than novelty? Or is it the same thing in your brain?

Well, it's the not knowing, right? So one of the things I say to couples all the time is, I challenge you to live in the land of I don't know. Because we get. We get, after time, we believe we're supposed to know everything about our partner. Because that's what the stories have told us, right? Is that we are a good couple. If I know everything about you, and I can read you like a book and then.

Finish the sentences.

Finish his sentence, right? It's the worst thing on an hourly basis, right? But it's the worst thing we can do for each other. Because what happens is that, see, we're all doing these micro changes every day. We're growing, we're stretching, we're developing. But when we're together over a long period of time, we forget to see that we're changing. And we start seeing each other as fixed and stable. And the truth is, none of us are fixed and stable.

So what would you say then?

Yeah, so I would say really understanding that we have to take the time. I say there's two things that keep a relationship really healthy, and it ain't love and sex. Now, don't get me wrong. Love and sex is hot and we want it. But the two things that really keep a relationship vibrant is intention and curiosity. When we can be really intentional in our relationships, not take it for granted, not operate from a place of assumption. And when we can be really curious, which means, I don't believe I know everything about you. I don't know how you've changed. And being able to live with intentional curiosity, that shit is sexy.

Got it.

Very cool. So how do you set it up.

And how do you keep it going?

Yeah. So part of it is, first of all, we have to have an awareness, right? And we forget what it means to be intentional. Because, you know, in the beginning of a relationship, intention becomes really easy because we are infatuated. And see, love and infatuation actually are the exact opposite of each other, right? Infatuation is high energy. It's exciting, it's public. It's. Everything is perfect. It's erotic. Infatuation is something I want to share. Infatuation is full of curiosity. And it. And it begs me to jump in. See, love is the opposite of all of that. Love tends to be more private. Love oftentimes is not about perfection. In fact, it's just the opposite. It's I see all of the flaws. Love is often far more low energy. Love is not always erotic. Love actually is about digging into the places that are uncomfortable and dark. And that's when we say, the honeymoon died, right? Which is when infatuation starts to fade. And so what happens is that we have to remember that infatuation comes back. It does. And if we're doing a really good job and we're both leaning in, there will be moments where infatuation happens. Like my husband, Right. I often am most infatuated with my husband when I see him in public. Like when I watch how other people react to him, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's. He's. He's actually really funny. Like, oh, yeah, people really love him. I'm like, that's coming home with me. Right? And then of course, that infatuation could last for weeks, or it could last the 10 minutes till we get in the car. And I realized he didn't pick up the dry cleaning that I need. And I'm irritated, right? But so it comes in and it goes, it comes and it goes. But see, we believe that infatuation is love, and love should feel like infatuation. They're very different things.

We were going to ask you how stress impacts love and infatuation and sex, but it seems like you've already started to touch on that. That stress is. I would say stress is a huge buzzkill.

Oh, yeah.

In every way.

In every way. In every way. Because we can't be in our bodies. Because when we're stressed, we're actually up in our heads right now. Here's what's really interesting. One of the things that I do when I start to work with somebody is I am obsessed with words. I think words matter because. Well, because we say words that we believe everyone understands, but we actually have a very different meaning of them. And so taking the time up front to really define what it is that I'm trying to communicate. So, for example, one of the things I say about sex is. Sex is where you go in your head by yourself, with another or with others, right? Everything I'm doing with my body, that's just sexual activity. But sex is where I go in my head. So, for example, I could go to the grocery store and I'm pushing my little grocery cart through the produce aisle and I see somebody that I think is. That's some hot stuff there. That produce aisle is working today. And I might have a little flushing behind my neck. My heart starts to race a little bit. Maybe I get a little action going on downtown. And the truth is, I've never taken my clothes off. I've never touched another person. Nobody's touched me. But I have had a full body, visceral sexual reaction simply by where I went in my head, right? And so how we. And if our head is full of stress, that we don't have the space to allow those. Those other stories in. And then the other part about it is really understanding what intimacy really is. And I define intimacy as this really important balance between safety and vulnerability, right? Because we find that balance and we find it all differently. But if I am so safe that I can't be vulnerable, I'm closed off. If I'm so vulnerable that I don't feel safe, I'm constantly terrified and triggered. I have to be able to figure it out. How do I balance that? And how do you balance it? Because that's the magic point.

And my guess is over time, that changes too, right?

Every day, right?

Yeah, it's like the Amazon bestseller list.

It changes hourly, right? Like, did my kid piss me off today? Did my boss yell at me? Did I forget to pay the mortgage payment? Is my mother coming to visit? Who knows, right? But all of it can be a libido killer.

So I want. I'm actually much more curious going back to how to create the relationship anew. What you're talking about is creating the relationship anew every day, really intentionally creating every day. And there's a lot of people that talk about that, and it's very easy to say. And what are some practical tools that you give your patients that actually help them? What are the practices that people can do to help that create?

Well, I think that practically one of the things I always start with is communication, because so often people don't know how to really listen. Listen with intimacy. And I always tell people, ask a question, don't make a statement, don't tell, ask. And really spending time with couples, really getting them to learn how to listen to each other. Because we all want the same thing, right? We want to feel heard, seen and understood. Because when I feel heard, seen and understood by you, I can be more vulnerable with you. I can open up to you. So I often start with communication. And that's where the defining of words and the learning how to create a unique language that is unique to each couple. Once I can do that, then we really start exploring things. What does it really mean to be intentional? What does it mean to actually show up in this relationship? Because what we're trying to create here is a sense of reciprocity. Right. I'm going to invest in you. I'm going to invest in this relationship. And I want a good return on my investment. Right. I don't want 2% like I. Come on. I want some money in the bank here. So I'm going to invest. And I want you to take what I've given you, and I want you to return it to me in a much bigger way. And I want you to do that not because you feel obligated. I want you to do it because you see value in me. And then hopefully you're doing the same thing. You're investing, hoping that I'll return to you. And what we create is this sense of reciprocity, this sense of there's a flow. We start to create an energetic flow. And at the same time, I'm working with couples to question all of the sexual scripts they've had. Right. Because I'm a man of the circle.

Before you go there, I want to kind of back. You're saying a lot of amazing, amazing things. And do you have your. Do you have actual examples of what.

It means to communicate communication interruptus?

Yes. Yes. When somebody's talking too much, you say, hold on, I have a question. Thank you. You role modeled it beautifully. You win. You just won.

A couple's therapy even more so that couples have developed and they have their ways of communicating. And so what got them here isn't gonna get them where they wanna go. So how are you training people to interrupt their typical flow of communication, which has gotten them potentially into a hole, and then move forward into a form of communication that's more effective than where they are. Take them in. And I think you had a different question.

Well, all these things, I want actual examples because talking about them is amazing and it's great. And I think if we can actually say what is the actual.

What's the actual.

What did you see?

Yes.

Who did you see yesterday and what did they say and what did the other partners say and how did it.

Work and how didn't it work? What didn't work and then what did work?

Right. So that's what I'm talking about when I say sexual scripts. Because one of the things we have to understand about each other is what is the script you've been given about who you're supposed to be in relationship and who are you supposed to be sexually and how is that performed? Right. And that's where the curiosity comes in and teaching couples to ask each other that, like, who Role modeled relationship for you, who role modeled what intimacy looks like for you. And it could be somebody in your life, it could be television, it could be movies, it could be books. And really having really important conversations about that. Because we do have to start at the conceptual piece because so many people have received no education or insight on sex, intimacy, relationships, identity. This is a foreign concept for many people.

What they've been told, I would disagree with you. I think that they get a lot of it. It's just not realistic. They get a lot of it from sitcoms. Hollywood movies.

Now, every generation is different. Right, Right.

I mean, we can only talk. So talking about this current grouping that a lot of people are looking at, look at that orgasm that they had and look at the way that their partner, spouse, boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever, values and adores them. But it's all created by the Hollywood version of how it should look.

Right, but that's exactly what I was saying. So I don't disagree with you. Right. I mean, we can watch all the Julia Roberts movies and Tom Hanks movies and, you know, and we get a certain message about what it's supposed to be and we watch a shit ton of porn. Right. And one of the things I say to people all the time is real sex does not feel like porn looks. Right, true. Right. Porn is made for the camera. Porn is made for the audience. So real sex doesn't feel like porn looks. But yet we're taking these messages and we're crafting these scripts, these stories and. But nobody's actually sitting down and educating us and breaking it down and exploring what it means for me. What does it mean for you? And so we show up in these relationships with these expectations that I'm supposed to perform in a certain way in order for me to be acceptable. And so the first thing we have to do is we have to break all that down. And then we talk about, you know, really talking about what is healthy sex and how. So I'll share a couple with you. I have a couple. They've been married about 26 years. They've got three kids. And they're like, we're dead in the bedroom.

Dead in the bed. That's the next book, Elliot.

Dead in the Bed. Yep. And so, yeah. And I can't even tell you how common this conversation is. Right. I mean, all the euphemisms, like, we use them all. All day long. And so one of the things we started talking about is people don't even know how their own body works. And so I start a lot of Sessions with, let's have a sex ed class. Let's talk about anatomy. I can't tell you how many men don't know what a prostate is, where it is, and why they have it, and how it impacts their sex lives. They just know they don't want to get cancer, and they don't want it swollen because they won't pee. And so being able to say, okay, and I take out all my sex toys, I take out all my biological models, we put them all on the floor, we giggle, we get ashamed. I'm like, you can touch it. Like, you can pull on it, you can turn it on. You can feel whatever it does. And I'm very open about those things. And what I'm trying to do is demystify curiosity, not trying to demystify sex. I try to demystify curiosity so that they can lean in and ask those questions. And then hopefully what we're doing is I can then get them to talk about their own bodies. Here's another example of a client, and this is an example that's in my book as well. I was working with a lesbian couple. So two women, they had come to me for some fertility issues, which is one of my specialties. And a lot of people think, oh, it's two women. This should be easy. Just give them some sperm and off they go. But there's a lot of identity in there. So the partner who wanted to carry was having troubles getting pregnant. The other partner, who was very clear that pregnancy would have caused a tremendous amount of body dysmorphia, absolutely did not want to carry. And we were trying to figure out, so how do. How do we navigate these waters? And I say to this couple, so we got to talk about your body. And I want to use the same language you do, right? And we can talk really clinically, or we can talk like we're in a fucking porn set. I don't care, right? But I need to know what language you use. So I said, what do you call your parts? And the woman said to me, I don't understand. I said, okay, what do you call your parts between your legs? Like, what language do you use? And she went. I said, what?

I'm like, what?

She goes book means? I said, I'm sorry, I can't hear you. Can you speak a little louder? Well.

Her.

I said, her. I said, who is she? Can you introduce me to her? Like, is she a friend of yours? Is she somebody you get along with? Like. Like, because there was such a disconnect that this person had with her own body. And here she is really coming to me to talk about her reproductive organs and can't even say the words, not even the clinical words. Right. And so a lot of the work that I do really starts with this big kind of meta approach before we start digging into all the little nitty gritty. So it does, you know, doing sex therapy takes time. It's not short term therapy. And so it really add to your point, I have to do all that stuff first because if I can't talk to them about their bodies, I can't get them to have a relationship with their body until I take this big world they've lived in. I start making it a little more intimate for them. And then we can start getting into exercises like I explained Tantra, here's some positions I want you to try. And somebody's like, I don't know, I can't get it in. And I'm like, it's all about angles. It's like playing pool. Like, here it is. I'm like, do you remember geometry class? So we're going to talk about this. I'm going to find the right angles for you. And they're like, oh my God, didn't get sleep all weekend. I'm like, good for you. Let's keep going. But we can't do those functional things until I build a framework and a construct for them.

So you're really looking at basic. What I love what you're saying is you're breaking people's idea of words and thoughts into really, what are you actually saying as opposed to, I'm speaking English, you're speaking English, of course we understand each other. It doesn't work that way.

It doesn't work that way.

So I have 18 million questions. Of course. So. So I would say the vast majority of people, okay, I'm going to paint the population with a brushstroke. Okay, the vast majority of people feel uncomfortable talking about this and may stumble over the words to use. So are there for our listeners who might be saying, oh, okay, I'd like to. I can practice curiosity and I can practice rediscovering my partner. And now when we start to drill down into. And I'm not even going to assume gender based roles, but just say, okay, there's two people in a relationship with each other. What are the words that they can start using to get on the same page and to start to reconnect sexually?

So one of the first things that I love to do is I play the word game and I Also teach. I teach in master's and doctoral programs. I'm teaching up and coming therapists. And I do this with them as well because I'll say, okay, I'm going to give you the clinical word, and we're going to come up with as many words as we can for that. Ready? And we're going to each go around the room until we can't come up with any more words. Penis, dick, schlong, cock, Johnson, wood. And we start laughing because it's funny. Words are funny, right? Body parts are funny, right? Then I'll say breasts, tits, fun bags, mammaries. And we just keep going and going and going.

Don't forget tatas.

Tatas. Hoo hoos. I got it. All right. Yeah, we all have our favorite words. But what I'm also able to do then is to discern where's the ick factor, right? Because there are certain words that some people like. I am so offended by that word. Great, let's talk about that. You're allowed to be offended. I don't want to take away your offense. But helping two couples to really figure out that language. And so the real functional way I do that is we literally start naming all of the words. And I tell them every time you're in the car alone, play this game because it is funny. And it also reminds us that this is supposed to be fun, right? Sex and intimacy is supposed to be fun. And so it's a way to start bringing a little bit of humor in early. Then we can craft what language we're going to use, and we can use what words are on the table, what words are off the table.

But what if I'm too busy, got too much stuff on my plate as everybody talks about, and just it's. I think the majority of people, you're saying it's fun, but I think a lot of times most people get into the groove of, I'm really busy, I got kids, I got job, I got everything else. And oh yeah, by the way, we should have sex sometime, right?

Well, one of the things.

It's more of a cursory. It's not fun. It's just a function. Oh, yeah. Okay. I had sex my once a week or twice a week or once a month. And check that box.

I think for a lot of women, it's, my husband really wants to have sex, and I want him to be happy. So let's make sure we take care of my. I mean, I think I hear this from a lot of my patients that I'm tired And I'm running around and I gotta have sex. So it's. It's not. It's. It is just like, let's make sure.

We check the box.

It's an obligation. So one of the things, a conversation that I have very early is why do we have sex? We. We have sex for reproduction. We have sex because we're. We saw something important. We want to know what it feels like. We have sex because we want to remember. We have sex because we're angry. We have sex because we want to make up. I could go on for 30 minutes about all the reasons why we have sex. And so for couples that come to me in the way that you're describing Wendy Annette. Is to remind them that sex isn't always driven by libido. And so many people will say, oh, right. Because once I get into it, I remember it's fun. Once I get into it, I kind of like it. It's the getting into it. So I call that butt sex. Right? What? I call it butt sex. Right? We don't like butt sex. I would have sex, but. But I'm busy. But I'm tired. I'm like, so let's get out of butt sex and then maybe move into butt sex and into butt sex. Right? But, you know, and again, bringing the humor into it and demystifying it, but reminding them that sex is not always about libido and obligation.

Where do you go with couples who have an elephant in the room for themselves? So it's nice to talk about libido and intimacy and sex. And for a lot of couples, that may occur on top of there's some type of trauma, infidelity, betrayal. And how are you helping people navigate. Where do you send people? How do you work with them when of they're coming in? Because the sex isn't good, but what's really going on is the relationship is impaired in some major way.

That's right. Well, infidelity recovery is one of my specialties. It's actually what I did my doctoral dissertation on. I love working with couples going through infidelity because I think there's so many things we can do. Because, you know, there's so many things we can do.

Can we back up a step when you say we can do? Are you about to distill your dissertation into like the top five steps? Or is that.

No, no, no, no. Because the district. No. And the reason why is because I think I'd love to talk about. At some point, my dissertation really was about the disenfranchised grief men feel after they've had an infidelity. And so it's a very unique kind of real sliver category. And we can talk about that at some point. But I think that the work of her infidelity in answering your question is actually something different. Right. And it's about rebuilding trust. And I think what can be often very confusing is after there's been an infidelity, the person. We never have a good word because I think both partners are hurt.

How about the recipient? The recipient of the partner's infidelity.

That's a great way to put it. The recipient of the partner's infidelity often will initiate and start having the wildest, most energetic sex they've ever had because they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm going to show you what you could have had. I'm going to fuck you. Faithful. Right. And I see this a lot, which gets to be really confusing because then we get out of bed and you hate me and you're screaming at me and telling me I'm the worst person on the planet, and then you go, fuck my brains out. I don't know what to do here. And I'm like, yeah, let's talk about that. So the elephant in the room in a situation around infidelity is that it constantly changes and there are layers of grief that we have to work through. And one of the things that I love quoting my dear colleague Esther Perel on, is that the victim of the infidelity is not the victim of the marriage, because both of you. The marriage, the relationship, because both of you crafted the dynamic of this relationship under which this infidelity happened. So why did you take your. Why weren't you paying attention? This could not have been a total surprise to you. Where were you when all of this was going on? There's an ownership and responsibility that that person doesn't want to hear, but has to. And so it's about breaking it down and working together.

That's pretty impressive in terms of having the partner take responsibility, which, if you take it, that you create your own life. Yeah. You're responsible somewhere.

That's right.

Yeah. I remember getting down to something. You can say you're responsible because you were involved. That may be the only level at which you can own it. But I was there and I own it.

I own that. I stopped paying attention. Right. I didn't tell you to go take your pants off. Right. I'm not the one who told you to go get a blowjob, but I was not paying attention. I didn't realize you had a need or you were hurting or that you were struggling. And it came out this way. Yep.

That's great. So how do people come back from that?

It's very long and very slow. I'll be honest. There's no quick fixes. And you really have to have really good, two really good individual therapists and then a couples therapist who's driving the process. And it really is that triad. And they all have to really work together because what often happens is they work counter and against each other. And that's when it becomes really, really hard. But if you can get that triad to really work in cohesion, some really important healing can happen and the relationship can be better and stronger and more insightful than it has ever been before. I have couples who I've been working with for years post infidelity, and I think they're doing great. They still come to couples there because they're like, what we realize now is this is the work we're supposed to do.

Never again I think would be their hashtag.

Yeah. And neither one of them wants it. And I'm not even saying that I believe every couple has to be monogamous. I want to be really clear about that. I believe, because you can even have infidelity in an open relationship, if you have, you know, an ethical non monogamy or consensual non monogamy, there can still be infidelity. And I. Well, because, you know, when you have an open relationship, there still have to be rules and boundaries and limits and expectations and people can still get hurt. Right. Because let's take the word infidelity, which comes from the word fidelity, which means trust. So in reality, infidelity is anything that breaks the trust. It's not necessarily what you do with your. With your genitals. Right. It's not about whether you with her or anybody. Right.

What?

Her? Her.

I think we're going down a rabbit hole that we may not want to keep going down.

Yeah.

Because this is just narrowing to a very.

No, I want to go. I know, because I. Now I was going to say that's fascinating. And can we switch subjects?

Yeah, we want to switch up, but I want to Actually you mentioned a couple of times long. So when you work with a couple, not even infidelity, just a couple, what does that long mean to you? Are you talking 1 month, 6 months, 10 years? What does long? What's the range?

Well, I think if you're just. If you know, if you're coming in to deal with a very specific issue. I have couples like, we're trying to decide whether we're going to have another child that might be one to three months. Right? We're just going to get down. We're going to make the decision, and then off you go. If we're dealing with an infidelity or infertility, which is another one of my specialties, or we're dealing with chronic health, somebody has a cancer diagnosis which leads to sexual dysfunction or a chronic pain which leads to a sexual dysfunction, this to take a long time. This is not. There's no pill for these things. And it's about really unwinding. It can be years. I have couples that I've worked with for years.

All right, so you are obviously incredibly passionate about what you do, which I love. But there's only one of you. So how do you find people like yourself that love the work? How do you find sex therapists in general? And then how do you find good sex therapists?

Well, back up a sec. Are you taking patients, Elliot, or clients?

So I. It is very rare that I have room for a new client. Very, very, very rare.

So my question is back to Ed's question now.

What.

Where do we send people? So there's a couple of things I would tell you. So, first of all, asec, the American association of Sex Educators, Counselors and Therapists, is the organizational professional body that certifies sex therapists, educators and counselors.

Can you see the website for people who are. Who might be listening?

A S e c t asect.org a sect.org and on Asecs, you can go in and you can look for sex therapists in your region. So there's a directory on it. You can look people up. The other thing is, I am also a certified ASEC sex therapy supervisor. So I am constantly training new sex therapists. One of the things I teach at the doctoral program is the sex therapy track. So I am constantly in an academic setting as well as in a clinical setting, helping to create this next generation of sex therapists.

So you're reproducing yourself so that.

Yeah. It's reproduction. Right.

So how can. So that. Do people look for that? How do people find good sex therapists? Because. Or how can you distinguish.

Do they breathe? Is not the right criteria. Right. That used to be my. I have a boyfriend. Is he breathing? Is he Jewish? I like him. We're good.

I know that's a little bit broader, Right? Yeah. Ed, this is such an important question, and I'm glad That you ask it, because a lot of people go to find a therapist on a website like Psychology Today, and a lot of people will say, I do sex therapy. And so really making sure that before you go meet with that person saying, are you a certified sex therapist? What's your experience with sex therapy? What are your specialties within sex therapy? Because there are far too many therapists who claim a lot of specialties that they don't really have.

Does the website annotate that at all, or. No?

Like, if you go to a Psychology Today, you can put up any specialty you want. There's no vetting of that. So when you call the therapist, make sure you're asking the questions. And I would ask, are you certified? Are you in supervision? Every good sex therapist, even if they're certified, should always be in supervision with another sex therapist. Because these issues are so critical and the risk for harm is really high. You'd want to say so. And are you actively in supervision when you do sex therapy?

And a client that wouldn't be ever. I never even heard that term. So what does that mean, to be in supervision?

So every. And I tell all of my students this all the time. You cannot be a good therapist if you're not in supervision. I've been a therapist for years. I'm still in supervision. And what that means is that you regularly meet with somebody who is at your level or higher to review your cases, to review your work, to make sure you're not forgetting anything, to review challenging cases, to give you a different perspective, to make sure that you're remaining ethical. As you can imagine, in sex therapy, the lines have to be very clear. Far more than probably any other kind of therapy. The lines have to be very, very clear. And so being in supervision means that you are keeping yourself in check and validating the work that you're doing.

That's great. It's like ongoing training and development.

Absolutely.

For yourself. That's fantastic.

So here's my challenge. I think we're out of time.

We have a holistic question we want to ask. We haven't gotten through any of them.

Yeah.

So I think we're.

I talk too much.

No, this is amazing.

You're fantastic, Elliot. We love you.

So I think we should definitely think about episode two as a second part.

Take two.

Take two, yeah.

Cause, I mean, things that I would say we didn't cover, that I'd like to cover in another conversation would be really the specifics of how do people get their groove back? How do people navigate sex with young Children. My personal question is, how do you navigate sex with teenagers? Cause I find teenagers to be harder than young children because they are always around and they're aware and awake. And you're listening for a friend, right? You and I are.

I got you.

Yeah. And then keys to maintaining a healthy sex life. All these things really.

The.

I think the version two that we'd love to get into.

Yeah. Maybe there is, like. Can you give us maybe, like, two to five takeaways from what Wendy was saying as, like, key things, but the.

Abbreviated versions, because we're going to get in trouble with our producers if we go over.

Yes, I will name it really quickly. 1. Remember that sex is supposed to be fun. Right. Bring curiosity in as much as you can live in the land of, I don't know, wherever you can. The healthiest relationships have the clearest boundaries. And this goes with our teenagers. Right. When my door is closed, you don't knock on it. You don't walk into my room. The creating of sacred space. Our children are never allowed in our bedroom. Ever, ever, ever. We don't even have pictures of our kids in our bedroom. They are not allowed to cross the threshold.

Wait, so they don't physically cross the threshold and their presence isn't in your room?

Never? Never.

Why is that?

Because that is our sacred space. Because that's where we go to have sex. That's where we go to have difficult conversations. That's when we go when we're sick. That's when we go when we want to be alone. That is our place for our intimate, connected relationship. They can have the rest of the house.

Horses out of the barn on that one, Ed, huh?

Yeah. You can claim it. Reclaim it. Reclaim it. Reclaim it. Right. So that would be number three. Number four. Number four would be, make sure you know your body, you know your own body. And our bodies are aging and changing all the time, and sometimes we forget to pay attention to our body. So make sure you're physically healthy and well, make sure you're talking to your primary care about sexual wellness. And number five, I tell people, go to couples therapy when things are still okay. Don't come when you're in the middle of a crisis, because all we can do is do crisis management. You come to a therapist when you're still able to have enough curiosity and work on something. Come to couples therapy before there's a problem.

Yeah. I think that's brilliant advice.

That's great.

Amazing. Thank you.

Yeah.

Thank you.

It's been an honor and a pleasure.

More to come.

Yes. So we'll complete this episode of the Five Journeys podcast live. Like youe Matter. Our guest today is Elliot Cronenfeld, who has a PhD in sex therapy. And we look forward to having you back, Elliot.