Why Your Antidepressants Aren't Working (And How to Address The Root Cause), with Dr. Will Van De...

Let's say you have a terrible diet, going to fast food every day, and you've got higher levels of inflammation that might make you more prone to developing a mood disorder or ptsd. Or you have adverse childhood experiences and you've got a stack of traumas that elevated your chronic inflammatory levels that make you crave crappy food, make you more prone to wanting to go get that dopamine from fast food.

If you want to live like you matter, ditch the pills, look great, and feel Freaking amazing. You're in the right place. I'm Dr. Wendy Trubo.

And I'm Dr. Ed Levitan. Welcome to the Feel Freaking Amazing podcast.

Where we empower you to live a vibrant and healthy life by optimizing your structural, chemical, emotional, social, and spiritual lives.

Hold on to your hats.

Hello and welcome to the Feel Freaking Amazing podcast. I'm Wendy Trubo and we have a celebrity sighting today in Ed Lev Tien. And we have Dr. Van der Veer. I'm hoping I said that right. He is the founder of the Integrative Psychiatry Institute and co host of the Higher Practice podcast. His institute trains doctors and therapists in how to address the root causes and not just the symptoms of mental illness using integrative medicine and psychedelic therapy. So, Will, welcome. We're so excited you're here.

Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

I haven't really talked about it on the podcast, but I started working with ketamine two years ago and we're looking to bring it to the practice. But. And I've also gone deep into plant medicine in terms of the research and talking to people. And the thing that I really want to set the stage for people is you, let's say mushrooms. You go out and you party and that's okay, but that's party. And that's more of a drug. Same dose of mushrooms, you take, you go have a blindfold, face mask, music, a facilitator, and an intention. Intention setting ceremony. That's. That's healing. That's medicine. So I really want people don't go out and just take some MDMA and think you're going to get cured after three sessions without any facilitation, without any.

It's like functional medicine. You can do a certain amount on your own, but to really get the healing benefit, you want to have a guide. You want to have someone facilitating. And this is not a lone ranger type thing in any way.

So that's a disclaimer.

A disclaimer, yeah. I mean, under the best circumstances, with recreational Use, you might have some insights that occur. Right. Or you might have a good time with your friends. But I want to also name that. I have a number of friends who have had way scarier experiences with recreational use. Because what these tools, what's so beautiful and powerful about these tools is that they can bring forward things from the past from our unconscious mind that need to be healed, that can produce really scary thoughts, like thinking that you should take that gun that you have in your tent, like a friend of mine did, camping by himself. I should just kill myself right now. I mean, there, There are scary things that happen when you don't have someone who's trained to help you work with traumatic memories, to help you work with the information that can be healing information, or it can also be really destabilizing information if you don't have the right help.

And it's from a destabilization point of view. To be clear, this is not for everybody. As amazing as what we're going to talk about is, not everybody's a good candidate. And that's why you have a professional make sure that it's the right candidate, the right medicine, the right dosing, et cetera. Right. Follow up, maybe more important than anything else.

Yeah.

So how'd you get into this work?

Well, really, it came from, frankly, despair that I felt as a psychiatrist pretty early in my career. I. I came out of my training, I thought I would have most answers for most people with their suffering, their depression, their anxiety, their bipolar, their schizophrenia. And within a couple of years, it started to dawn on me as I had more and more people falling into this category of treatment resistance that we talk about, that the tools that I had were way inadequate for way too many people. And it was incredibly discouraging. And it was around 2012 that I got a phone call from a physician friend of mine in the community who said, would you be willing to consider joining a clinical trial of MDMA therapy for ptsd? There's a phase two trial getting started in Boulder. They need a psychiatrist. And I said, isn't that the stuff that causes holes in the brain and is no good for anybody? And, you know, people abuse it and go rave and then, you know, get sick and die from it. So on I had this huge brainwashing, really honestly, from. From my training. And it turns out that this story about holes in the brain in MDMA actually came from a trial by George Riccarte, where it later had to be retracted from the journal where it was published because he had switch. Switched the labels between amphetamine and mdma, and the animals, the monkeys who ended up with holes in their brain got very high dose amphetamine, not mdma. But the impact of that study before it was retracted was huge. And obviously I was one of the people who was impacted by that. So I went through that clinical trial as the study physician. I got trained in MDMA therapy and I watched people get well in a five month protocol with three exposures to MDMA that were, you know, on average, our folks who came through that study started with 29 years of PTSD symptoms on arrival into the study, and three quarters of them didn't meet criteria anymore at the end of the study. So it was just mind blowing to see such a huge reversal for people who had been getting after it and trying to get well for decades.

Did you have any crisis of faith? Like, I've been. You've had all this training at that point and you do all this work and then was there any part of you that thought, what have I been doing all this for when there's this other thing here? Like, have you been, did you feel like you had been spinning your wheels for a long time?

Well, absolutely. And you're reading my mind. The, the, the thing that started to dawn on me toward the end of that clinical trial was, oh, like I can't go back to working with people in a con. In con. In ordinary consciousness because they're paying me to do something that is probably going to be a lot longer and more expensive, potentially more painful, less effective than what I just saw happen in a study. But obviously I can't go out. I'm not going to go out and risk my license and work with MDMA underground or something like that. So that's when ketamine came into the picture. This was end of 2016, beginning of 2017. We were wrapping up our study and I'm so grateful to my patients. I had a patient who asked me, would you prescribe ketamine to me for my tremor resistant depression? And I said, what? It was like deja vu, like what? I'm going to prescribe a controlled substance.

That.

Is an anesthetic for you to take at home. Like he wanted the nasal spray. And this is before Spravato, this is before all the things that have happened the last few years with ketamine. And so I reached out to a friend of mine, a mentor here in Colorado who did a fellowship at nimh. And he's always up to date on everything coming down the pipe. So he's like, oh, yeah, I've been using that for a few years now, and here's what I know about it. So I took notes and I ended up prescribing intranasal ketamine to this person take home. And it. I mean, this was a person I'd worked with for 10 years. Once a week. He was very stuck, and it did have a huge impact on his depression. Very quickly in his case, we ended up discontinuing the treatment because there were these interesting, almost like flashbacks or like effects that he was experiencing with his consciousness that were not close enough to the dosing that he was doing to be accounted for by, okay, this is an acute effect of ketamine. In other words, something was going on with dissociation that was becoming a problem. So we stopped it. But it did lead me down into the rabbit hole of research and what's out there. And that led me to get trained and start offering in office ketamine treatments. And I stopped doing any intranasal at that point. So it's been a huge boon for. For folks with depression and ptsd, anxiety. So we could talk about that, whatever you guys want to do with that.

So, well, let's. Because we're bringing that in. Let's talk about what have you seen in terms of results, like from my training of it and my. And having some personal experience with it, definitely anxiety, depression, ptsd. What I understand OCD is available is possible, but maybe not as useful. What's been your experience?

Same here. I was very excited about the work that came out of Stanford around OCD and ketamine, but in my practice I haven't seen a lot of benefits. It's been hard to get really clinically meaningful and durable responses. With OCD and then with major depression and with anxiety disorders and post traumatic stress disorder. Our protocol where we assign a therapist to work with the person from start to finish, and we do six IV sessions with preparation and integration sessions as well. The IV sessions are two hours long, so there tends to be a lot of trauma processing going on during the dosing sessions as well as obviously integration.

So when you say integration, what does that mean?

Well, it's different for each person. And we like to offer a smorgasbord or a big menu of different styles of integration, different approaches to integration. For some people, making use of artwork like markers and paper and crayons, and drawing the symbols of the download or the nugget that the person received that we think helps move them forward in their lives. A big part of it is behavior change and establishing new habits. Because obviously wellness is something that isn't given. It's earned every day with the habits that we have in our lives. And people who are very impacted by depression and anxiety disorders often have a lot of targets that we need to address for the way they live. Diet, exercise, relationships, sleep, hygiene and so on.

Do you mean that it becomes a self fulfilling loop? That the depression and anxiety cause you to exhibit certain behaviors and then those behaviors reinforce the depression and anxiety which then makes it worse and so that you get stuck in a vicious circle essentially?

I think that's a great way to put it. Here's an interesting study that came out. I think it's now, gosh, I've been talking about this study for probably more than 10 years. So I think it was 2007, but came out of the VA and they took the C reactive protein of people who were joining their Marine Corps and then they went to combat and then they measured their C. Reactive protein when they got back. And the interesting thing was that people who already had higher levels of inflammation were more likely to develop combat PTSD than people who were not as inflamed going into combat. Uh, so I'm offering that because there's sort of like a two way street between, let's say you have a terrible diet, maybe you're going to fast food every day and you've got higher levels of inflammation that might make you more prone to developing a mood disorder or ptsd, or you have adverse childhood experiences and you've got a stack of traumas that elevated your chronic inflammatory levels that make you crave crappy food. Right? Make, make you more prone to wanting to go get that dopamine from fast food. And so it's sort of like this vicious cycle, as you said, or you're.

Not sleeping or you're not ex. Moving your body, all those basic habits. The one thing I do want to highlight that just going back to one point that you made in terms of, for what I heard, statistics wise, part of it is having the experience. They I've heard that 20 of the work is in the experience and 80% is afterwards. To actually bring it to life, bring it into your life. Because if you just have an interesting experience and that's just what it is and don't put it into your life, that's you'll have a memory, but you won't have a change.

Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean like, here's another example. I was working with a veteran who had terrible depression and suicidality that was being triggered by a divorce that was happening in the current circumstances. There were things that happened in the past, but the current one was a divorce. And we did a ketamine series that took him close to normal with his mood. Not totally normal, but close. So it was a big result for him. When he came in for his initial evaluation, we also tested gluten sensitivity. So this particular gentleman worked in a bakery, and so he was breathing gluten in addition to eating it. And the results came back after the ketamine series. And he didn't have celiac disease, but he was on that spectrum. So for him, the benefits of this series of ketamine sessions lasted for a few weeks, and then he crashed. And the behavior change around gluten was not happening yet. Then we did another series, and we started chipping away at these contextual underminers, I would say, of stability. So in cases like this, and I think these cases are really common, where the psychedelic therapy can access and produce a result in the psychology, but there's all of this biology that has to get addressed to. And I think that's a huge missing piece here for many people.

I want to add something to that, actually, because I was thinking as you were talking. I have this patient who's. I've known her for 50 years. We have a personal relationship, and for the last 10 years that she's been my patient. I've been encouraging her to adopt a particular way of eating. I've been encouraging her to go keto just because of her blood sugar and her weight and her brain and all these things. And for 10 years, she has not been able to do it. And something shifted for her about 10 months ago, and it was the first time she was able to not only do it, but sustain it. So she's been doing a form of keto. Sometimes she'll flex it, sometimes it'll be keto light. But she is now able to clearly see in a way she couldn't see before, that it's impactful for her. And so there's also this component of whether your frontal cortex is involved and your ability to do something with deferred gratification, or whether you're just plumb not ready. I think there's a component of readiness for people where they can actually see the difference, sustain the difference, and recognize that it's meaningful, which it's not always. You know, it's like quitting smoking. It's not usually the first time that it sticks. You have to keep sort of working your way into the next level of success. And there's. So there's something about people just being ready.

I totally agree.

Only they can say when that happens and totally agree.

To add to that, the, the, the physician I trained under the ketamine, he's, he's been using ketamine. He's an anesthesiologist and ER doc. So he's been using ketamine for 30 plus years and was involved also with the studies. And he was saying in general, ketamine practices are only about 30 or 40% effective. However, if you do things like look at people's hormones, look at people's magnesium levels, look at carnitine levels, what I would call a functional medicine light. He came to it himself, which was really cool. You can get it up to 70 to 80%. So there's a lot of ketamine clinics that are what I call drive by academy clinics. All they do is they want you come in, get your ketamine and leave. And that has no integration. That's not looking at the lifestyle. That's not really fundamental, doing the fundamentals. So I'm, I'm really happy here that you bring all those components in because it's. Without all of it, it doesn't make sense.

Yeah, you know, it's. I, whenever I'm speaking in public where people who might be considering ketamine therapy might be listening, I want to beat that drum that you need to ask the clinic you're going to work with, what's the goal of the treatment? Because most clinics are going to tell you that we think the ketamine is going to work for you and you're probably going to need maintenance ketamine to stay well. And they're treating the ketamine just like they treat Prozac. You're going to come here, you're going to spend your money over and over again. We're going to pump up your tire, but we're not going to patch it. Right. We're not going to change the inner tube in your bike tire. We're going to just put a little air in it and you'll come back in three days or three weeks or however long. What the goal needs to be is hopefully everyone is in agreement that I want to put psychiatry behind me. I want to get over my mental illness or my symptoms or my root causes. Um, and it, it's unfortunate that there's a, There's a sense, I think, amongst mental health practitioners because our tools are so weak for so many people that what I'm going to do with this person isn't. I'm. It's sort of like I'm never going to be able to get this person well. So I might as well tell them that they're never going to be well and they're going to need meds forever. It's just not true. And it's really disturbing to me that people, practitioners and patients are sort of under the spell. Right. Of this isn't going to work all the way for you, but we're going to try to keep you as comfortable as possible for as long as possible. It just doesn't have to be like that. We can hope for more than that.

I love that message. I really love that message.

It's. Yeah.

That. That there is hope, that there is other way. And to be fair, there are people that no matter what you do, do need maintenance, do need. But it's a lot less than everybody else thinks.

Totally agree with you. But we can. Even for people who continue to struggle and continue to. To. To need care for decades, we can still hold the view of, hey, there's probably a stone that we haven't turned over. There's probably something in me as a practitioner that I need to look at or learn that could be really impactful for this person. And yeah, I just. I think a couple of decades of working in this model has really taught me that some people have an issue with an environmental toxin like a mycotoxin. Some people have the effects of an infection like Lyme disease or associated infections from that, some people are dealing with any number of challenges. So we have to look at the whole map. And obviously I'm preaching to the choir here, but there's such a myopia around. Here's the list of symptoms and the checklist. And if you make that checklist, then now you get this medication and it's symptom relief only. I had a patient. He had gone and been tested for celiac disease in the context of me treating him for generalized anxiety disorder. I had him on an ssri. I had him in cbt. I worked with him for a year. I got basically no results for him. And when he went and saw a naturopath and came back positive for celiac and stopped eating wheat, his anxiety melted away over about six weeks. And then he tapered off his medication and still had no anxiety. And to this day, he remains free of anxiety. That was back in 2004, where nobody had ever talked to me about the gut brain connection at that time. I had one hour of nutrition in med school, not A whole course, usually.

It'S about half an hour. So that's not bad.

So that was sort of the beginning of. Okay, something else is going on here.

It's funny because to take a little detour into gluten. A tremendous number of people with anxiety, depression, ocd, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder are actually self medicating and just have either gluten intolerance or celiac or somewhere in the spectrum. So. And it's. I think you see kids, I don't see kids as particularly pronounced with kids who, you know, the ones who you just can't get a handle on that getting them off gluten makes a huge difference because of the tight junction issue and the Zonulin's issue and all of that.

And that's not to say everybody with anxiety, depression, bipolar has a gluten issue. But there is a percentage of people.

No, but it's a pretty easy way to be like, hey, is there something I could fix that's cheap and free?

Absolutely, yeah. And I agree. So that was the beginning of a journey of looking at gut brain connection. And then that led into inflammation and autoimmune conditions and you know, what are the levers I can pull to reduce inflammation? If inflammation plays a role in treatment resistance, which of course we know it often does with mood disorders and PTSD and so on.

So, you know, well, I was. I'm not normal, okay, Just to acknowledge, like, I've not ever been depressed and I'm really not anxious. I'm very high strung, I'm like very intense, but I'm not anxious. And two summers ago I started to be extremely fatigued. And we belong to something called Freedom Boat Club. So they go out, we go out on the boat, we go fishing. It's so much fun. And I started to find that I was getting seasick. I've grown up on boats. I've never been seasick in my life. I didn't even puke when I had all these children. So I was like, what's going on here? And one day I'm sitting on my couch and they were on the boat and I didn't feel well enough to go on the boat. And I found myself thinking this thought that said maybe it would be better if I weren't here anymore. And that got my attention because I've never had a thought like that in my life. I have never contemplated hurting myself. Nothing. And it got my attention because it was not me. And I was like, what's, what's thinking me? That is not my thought. What is thinking me. And I ultimately got down to a tick borne illness diagnosis and treated it. But I think for a lot of people who have a history, especially we're in the New England area, that, especially for people in the New England area who might have a history of anxiety or depression when they get a tick borne illness, they might not have the distinction in their brain to understand that something is thinking them. But because I didn't have the history and it was such a weird thought, I was very clear, like, this is not me. Something has happened to me, something's wrong, I need to figure it out. And that was the thing that got me the diagnosis, because then I started to think critically about it, like, what could be causing something to think me like that, because I knew it wasn't me. But the challenge is that a lot of patients, I think, don't recognize that they have an infection on top of a predisposition. And so we get people who, like, they can't even function. So I love that we're really looking at untangling all the different causes because it's, you know, you went to med school, right? Like, it looks like a lot that's.

Not connected to the heart. That's not connected well.

Like, you have one issue, you got one issue, and all your issues come down to this one thing. But it really could be that you have 10 issues and we got to fix every issue. Not just the one issue that you're presenting with, but the depression, anxiety, the food sensitivities, the infection, the toxic exposure. Don't forget the plastics that we're all kind of harboring. So it is this massive workup to make sure that we get everything, not just the presenting issue. So that was my plug for don't take it at face value.

Thank you for sharing that experience, Wendy. That's. That's a really powerful example. And, and to have the contrast because you didn't have a predisposing condition to be able to recognize. Wait, this doesn't feel like me. Like something's thanking me. Very beautiful.

But if you. But you might not have that. If you're used to being like a little hopeless or a little, you might not be able to recognize it's not you. There's something else going on here.

Yeah. And it's interesting when we think about, let's say metabolic syndrome or kind of like the commonplace constellation, and let's say an American population, obesity, insulin resistance, higher cholesterol, hypertension, coronary artery disease, that whole syndrome. Why don't we think about psychiatry the same way where it starts out, you could say maybe mostly in the metabolic syndrome with the standard American diet, and maybe not enough activity, physical activity and sleep disruption, but it snowballs. And then now you're in what we call a sickness syndrome, where your inflammatory signals inside your body are elevated, even though you're not in an acute infection. Fighting off an infection, we have higher levels of inflammation. But what goes on in these chronic diseases is the inflammation doesn't come down. It doesn't come back to normal levels. And so there's this snowball effect, and we kind of accept that and we treat that in primary care, all of these different aspects, maybe the GLP1 or the metformin or whatever, to try to deal with these things, the cholesterol drug and so on. But in psychiatry, we don't do the multimodal approach that you're talking about, Wendy, where we don't say, okay, well, maybe this started with an adverse childhood experience. But then this person had a certain way of thinking about themselves that they took into the school that they were enrolled in, and then they got picked on there, and then they sat by themselves in the lunchroom, and they began to use food as an emotional regulation tool. And then they went home and ate terrible food, snacking and watching TV or going on social media. And now you're sort of seeing the roots develop of all of these different aspects. But we're still using an old model where we. I was taught in medical school. I'm sure, Ed, you probably heard about Occam's Razor, right? The multitude of different types of symptoms should be looked at as coming back down to one root cause. Well, what if. What if there's five or 10 root causes?

Well, everybody that comes to us has five or 10 tax, man.

You sit on 10 tax.

Right. Although I. I do want to. So I want to actually reverse the conversation a little bit, because we're. Because on one hand, let's say they come to us or they come to Will, or they come to another provider that really looks at those five or ten things and addresses five or ten things. Most people are still in a pattern of thinking poorly about themselves or pattern of childhood trauma or whatever else. So that's where the ketamine comes in or the psychedelic medicine comes in.

Bringing their wiring up to code.

Right? Exactly.

That's a great way to put it.

We're in the midst of a construction project. So I was. They were like, it's not to code. I'm like, bring it up to code. But, yeah, let's bring the humans wiring up code.

So we have to also like. So yes, we have to address all those 5, 10, 20 causes.

So that.

And we have to address. Make sure like the interesting about ketamine is that it's actually hits a lot more receptors than a lot of the other psychedelic medicines and really releases the bdnf, the fertilizer of the brain. So it actually is a very exercise.

Right. So it's like it all comes. Sorry, it all comes together.

Yeah. So. So making the rewiring faster is, is a huge plus with psychedelic medicine that.

Absolutely. And that's why they work well so well together. Functional medicine and psychedelics. Because you know, if someone shows up at my office with 10 years of treatment resistant depression, they're sedentary, they're isolated and so on, I'm not going to get anywhere by talking about changing their diet or changing their activity levels. I mean it is completely and totally tone deaf to start with that with someone who's that debilitated. But I take that person, I offer them a ketamine session and they go deep into their own inner world and they, they have the ability, as people often say with ketamine sessions to see the forest for the trees. They get up above the forest and they can see, oh, I eat crap because I think I'm crap or I don't love myself. And this is just another way for me to express my self hatred that comes from my trauma that the thing happened. So if we can start with that and we can help people see a little bit of why they're doing what they're doing, give them a little boost of BDNF, cut their PhQ9 from 20s to under 10, you know, and help them then face these big challenges that felt insurmountable before the ketamine, then we can get somewhere, then we can start doing the things that need to happen in integration.

So it's the jump start.

Well, it's a jump start but also as you were saying, I could imagine somebody from the audience saying, well I know that why I'm doing what I'm doing because of my trauma and like I've already analyzed myself to death and I know and I, I can like I in my former self, I would be that and the response would be you may know everything and you might be 100. Right. But actually feeling it in your body and getting it as a kinesthetic and a in the body effect versus in the brain, it's a completely different venture. It doesn't, it's not even close.

Yeah. And another way to say that is, and I find myself saying this to patients a lot, is you've got to find a reason to live. You know, it's, it's developing an intellectual understanding of why you do the things you do is not enough of a. That's not a reason to live. That's like an, it's an academic experience. So people have to. It's like Viktor Frankl's work was, you know, was so critical around meaning making, you know, do. Do I care about my kids enough to change my diet, to see my kid graduate from college, for example? Is that the meaning? Is that the reason to live? Do I love spending time with my grandchild enough to want to do what's necessary to have another 10 or 15 years with that person? So on. And I think that's also important in integration. And something that is overlooked is this issue around re examining what makes our lives meaningful. Now. There's plenty of reasons in our external world to feel despair or fear, right? There's, there's a lot of chaos. There's climate change, there's political instability. Markets are crazy. You know, it's, it's, It's a scary world to be in. So I think we have to dig deeper. All of us, you know, whether we're, we're in healthcare, like we're receiving healthcare or providing it or anybody, it's just there's a higher level of need for us to really dig deep and look at what's important.

I have a question. We've talked about the people who are appropriate for ketamine and what to expect. Are there any downsides for ketamine or things that are unrealistic expectations of the ketamine dosing or the experience?

Well, first of all, people who. And I've had a few misadventures in ketamine with patients who are more prone towards dissociation or who person that they can talk to about their experience or who can show up for them and be with them after, pick them up from their sessions and so on. It. I will say that you might think because ketamine's an antidepressant, that it can never be used in bipolar disorder. But I don't see it that way at all. And we have studies now to support the use of ketamine for bipolar depression. So that's an important thing to say. I think, I think in terms of dosing, it's interesting that many of the people that we see in Boulder, Colorado, and I don't know this Might be something that happens outside the boulder bubble, but I don't often get outside the bottom. People think that higher doses are better, you know, bigger is better.

Oh, it's not.

Obviously ketamine at higher doses is an anesthetic and it does cause amnesia. So going into a so called K hole where you're sort of fully dissociated, I don't think it's necessary or more beneficial than dosing that allows people to be present and witness their experience and process it afterwards.

So.

But I also think that there's a lot of misinformation out there about ketamine protocols and there isn't a ton of evidence to go on for us to know what the right route of administration is, right cadence of sessions, how many sessions total. So it's difficult to, as a practitioner to know what the right approach is. And of course personalizing it is, is important as well.

So the question would be where can people find out more about you? And we'll put all your information in the show notes so that we haven't.

Really talked about your institute. And I'll put a plug in because we had one of our providers go through and she, she was raving about the quality of the presentations and the quality of the teaching. So I'll put plug. If anybody is interested in this work, IPI is a beautiful place to start or finish.

Thanks, Ed. Appreciate that. We're really excited about the future of mental health care. We think that with these new tools that are coming online and really integrating functional medicine with psychedelic medicine as we're talking about today, we can save lives and we can really shift the conversation. The best place to find me is our website, which is just simply psychiatryinstitute.com and that's where you can reach out to me or you can find out about our programs and our offerings.

That's great. Thank you.

We'll put that in the show notes. And is there anything else you want to tell the listeners before we close up the show?

Well, this is way too early to mention, but I'll just mention it anyway. We do have a book coming out in March, so it won't be even available for pre sale on Amazon until December. But it's called Psychedelic Therapy and it is meant to be a guide for people who are suffering, who are not excited about having a psychedelic experience, but one of the many people we know and love who are not getting the result that they need to get from conventional care. And so it's a, it's a way to support them, to walk through the experience, so stay tuned for that.

Well, we'd love to have you back and when it's ready and we'll have you back and tell us all about it.

Perfect.

Awesome.

Thank you.

All right, so on that note, Will, thank you for joining us for this episode of the Feel Freaking Amazing podcast. It's been awesome having you on and thanks to the listeners.

Thank you so much for having me.

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