Building Empires: How Sam Riddle Navigated from College Radio to Managing Megan Thee Stallion

I have been waiting a long time for this.

I was— I've been aware and a fan of your content for a while. I think your perspective and what you add to the greater music industry landscape is very important. And some of my friends have been on your show and some people I respect and stuff. So I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

I'm so happy that you're here. As you know, I'm very artist friendly and anything that you can share to help an artist like actionably move their career forward is so welcome. And the thing I'm most excited about, and which is rare, you have the management background and you have the label experience. So you really like travel two worlds very deeply. And I'm going to, I'm going to ask you to, to, to talk about like your Roc Nation experience and your Warner. So explain to people like how you got started, where you came from. The whole Michigan story, college radio.

Let's hear it.

Share.

Where, where should I start? Should I start in the beginning?

I mean, beginning. Yeah, start.

I, uh, I grew up in Ypsilanti, Michigan. It's about, depending on how fast you're driving, 30 to 40 minutes out of Detroit. It's like very of the same, cut from the same cloth as Detroit though. It's a blue-collar city. I was the first person I ever met in music kind of thing where like I had buddies who are, who are artists and stuff like that, but I didn't, I didn't grow up in LA or New York or Chicago or a hotbed where there was like an industry that I knew about. Obviously, yeah, there— I mean, like Detroit itself, there was scenes, and Ann Arbor has a scene, and there was a lot of artists and musicians in— on a smaller scale of scenes that I always was a part of and passionate about. And I never really saw it as a career until I went to Michigan State and I was studying political theory, and I thought I was going to be a lawyer and I was like dead set on it. And I got in my classes and respect to everybody there, but I just didn't feel right and I didn't fit in. Like, it wasn't the right vibe for me. It wasn't— I didn't feel like I was around my people. It didn't feel like I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. And I was paying a lot of money. I was paying for my own college out of student loans and all the things. My dad helped me where I could, but I was just like, I need to make the best out of this opportunity. And a little fish out of water in my freshman year of college. And then sophomore year, I finally made a change and I started volunteering at the college radio station at Michigan State, WDBM. And it was like a light turned on in my head. And I started as an overnight— or no, like early morning DJ from like 6 a.m. to 10 kind of thing. Wow. Okay.

Morning show. Hello.

Morning show, volunteer base. I wasn't getting anything out of it but the love for the game and learning and experience. And I think that's what, like, even when young aspiring professionals or young professionals come to me, they're like, well, what should I do in college? It's just like, find the opportunities where you can get experience. Don't worry about your major, but know that you're in an ecosystem, in a bubble, and there's artists there, there's business professionals there, there's alumni who work in your field. So like, use it as the networking tool as much as you're learning in classes. So I started at the radio station, was like, oh, this could be something. So I went to the station and was like, I want to get more involved. There was a hip-hop show, a hip-hop mix show that opened up. And I, being from Detroit, grew up loving listening to Eminem. I was right in that time. And that, no, that was my go-to. I mean, a white kid who loved hip-hop right outside of Detroit. Like it was kind of destined, right? Uh, so that was, that was kind of my, my molding. And like 50 Cent, Get Rich or Die Tryin' was the first album I ever bought. Like that, that era really molded me. What's that?

That was 2003. Scary that I know that.

Oh, I remember. So that, that kind of formed it. So when the hip-hop show opened up, I was like, I raised my hand for it and it was every Saturday year round. Um, from 8 PM to midnight live on air, which was amazing. And I got to mix and mingle and get into different scenes and communities and really bridge the gap. But as a 20-something, early 20-something undergrad in college, giving up your Saturday night every night was like a real discipline and commitment. Yeah. But even that taught me like, put the work first. Um, and to just kind of let myself, like, lean into that sort of thing. And I really got ingratiated in the Michigan hip hop scene that way and really got further into the radio station. So then I, there was a marketing role at the station that opened up and I raised my hand for that. And then I started finally getting paid. It was a small stipend, but I finally started getting paid for this. And then the station manager role opened up by the time of my senior year. And I went for that and got that. So I was helping. Yeah. So I was helping with a, with like a graduate assistant or something, kind of run the whole station, which was like, at that point was a dream come true.

Oh my God. That's awesome experience.

Yeah. That was fun. And around the same time, man, a little earlier than the station manager thing, I got a cold email from Universal Music Group to be an on-campus college rep. So I started doing that. I had like applied for a different position a while back or an internship or something, but they saw I went to Michigan State. They were looking for someone there and I was just cold sending out my resume for some all summer long, didn't get anything back. And eventually something came back to me. So that's kind of how I got my first foot in the door on the actual label side.

Exciting.

Yeah. And that was like a lot of like listening parties, like doing, putting up posters. It was, it was kind of glorified street team, quite honestly. But it was, it was cool. It was a minimum wage job.

I got paid.

No, it was important. And I learned like, oh, important. I learned the ground skills and the, the, like, the foundation of, like, where word of mouth is and how to build communities around artists. And I got to do some cool stuff, like helping host meet and greets with artists who came by, or driving down to Detroit and helping Big Sean with some stuff around— I think it was, oh, it was the set— his second album, um, I can't remember the name, maybe Finally Famous, uh, but like getting to do stuff like that was like I felt so special at that age.

Of course, it's big. If you haven't read his book, check it out. It's called Go Higher. I haven't.

So, I mean, that— yeah, I love Sean, and I— that came full circle by the time I— not to skip ahead, but when I was working at Roc Nation, I was able to like oversee his digital, and he remembered me from back then, and it was like kind of a really cool full circle moment. And he, he's a super gracious, talented, kind, hard-working person that that has really maintained relevance. Very humble. Very humble, very family, community oriented. I met his mom, his brother, his dad. Like everyone was involved in his career were people that were close to him and that meant a lot. But in between, before I got to Roc Nation, I, the Universal thing kind of afforded me an opportunity to, once I graduated school, work with Universal Music Group at, in Chicago. I was like a kind of a field rep. Oh wow. Thing. Yeah, I was remote before remote work was the thing. Yeah. So I was kind of like the person in the middle of the country for the label. And I also helped with like indie retail sales. So I would like call up Reckless Records in Chicago and try to get them to buy a handful of Sam Smith vinyl as well as like putting on listening events or driving down to St. Louis when covering shows, stuff like that. That was like a further version of what I was doing in college, but more of a like on-the-ground marketing rep, setting up like local chains with listening parties and those sort of things. So all sort of on the ground. And eventually that role kind of got restructured. And but Capitol was still wanted to keep me on board. So they moved me out to LA for the first time.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, I moved out to LA and was working for Capitol.

And what year was that?

Started in the sales department. Sorry.

What year was that?

Ooh, so I graduated college 2014. That means I would've moved to LA. Yeah, thank you. Uh, I would've moved to LA for the first time, 2016, 2017, something like that. Okay. Um, and it was like right when Apple Music was launching, so I was like kind of working on the streaming side doing that. So getting some streaming experience and learning—

exciting—

another facet of the business and there was a guy, his name's Josh Remsburg, who was, uh, he was kind of my boss at when I was a college rep, and he then was like one of the sales reps for Capital. So I got to work under him for a minute, which was really great. Um, was doing that there and, and enjoying it, but wanted to get more into the marketing side of things. So there was a role that opened up within Capital, uh, to do digital marketing, and then I kind of raised my hand for that, got that role, and then was able to get my foot in the door early with the QC team because they were just sort of merging into—

just moving over to Capitol at that point. Mm-hmm.

So Culture II, Lil Boat, Yachty's first album, Lil Baby's first mixtape. I was sort of around and in their world and in their orbit around then, which was really fun. It was cool to see. I mean, they were, they were killing. I mean, they still are, but like, that was the moment where they really arrived and were really demanding attention. So it was, it was an honor to be involved and be there. And then I got a cold call from Roc Nation. Their head of digital kind of hit me and was like, hey, I've heard good things about you. Like, would you ever be interested in working over here? And I was like, yes, absolutely. Jay-Z's been my favorite. I mean, Em's up there, but like, at this point in my life, Jay-Z was always my favorite artist and he was someone I looked up to from a business acumen to a—

Yeah, exactly. The entrepreneurial side. Oh my God, it's an empire.

Yeah, exactly. So I went over to Roc Nation and was helping oversee a roster and then part of the management roster for digital marketing. So that was like Sean, as I mentioned, Nipsey Hussle, Yo Gotti, but then Grimes and Coheed and Cambria and like a bunch of— it was all over the place, but I was doing it and one of my clients was Meek Mill. And he, he was— this was like—

so this would have been incarcerated at the time or this before he was incarcerated?

It was right when he was incarcerated. This would have been 2018.

What a lot of work. Okay.

It was a lot of work, but I was— it was special. I got to build a relationship with a lot of different people and kind of let my work show for itself and like really cared. And there was like, I remember the first week that I started at Roc Nation, J. Cole was releasing he was releasing an album and it was like surprise coming out, like, right, dropped into my plate. And we were planning a Free Meek rally the first week. And I was just like, I don't know if I can do this. Like, the volume and amount of work was like, just blew my head off. But I just kept my head down and kept working, just kept pushing. It was a lot.

Welcome to hustle culture.

That's right. And but like that, when people see a lot on your plate and how you handle that, that's where you start to like turn other people's heads, whether it's artists or executives or colleagues or anyone in between. So that happened, and then eventually shortly after that, Meek ends up getting out of jail, um, and he was in for a very bogus reason and, and had a real cause and purpose upon getting out that we were fully behind as Roc Nation and supporting him on, um. So the whole Free Meek movement brought him—

that whole situation was crazy.

It was insane. I was front row to a lot of it. And he— the way he carried himself through that was really like— it was really special and really meant a lot to a lot of people.

Yes, I noticed.

He was doing Good Morning America and all these things, and he didn't really have— there was a lot of really talented and amazing executives at Roc Nation, but he didn't have like a day-to-day person that could run with him and just kind of keep his speed as well. And I kind of got thrown into the mix as his digital person. At first I was just the guy with the, iPhone taking pictures like, who is, who is this? Whose mans is this running around with us? But I built a real relationship with him and eventually Desiree Perez where they were like, we see you transitioning into this role as his day-to-day and kind of being more than just the digital person. And that's what I wanted. I really wanted to get into management. So I jumped in headfirst, moved to New York at this point and went on tour and went across America to South Africa to award shows to all the things that, like, an artist of that level does. Championships comes out, was massive. And Going Bad was a huge song. I think the biggest of his career. And there was just like so many amazing moments that it really was like, oh my God, I'm doing it.

And you kind of got, you kind of got, indoctrinated by fire, like you got really dropped into it. Um, did you get to be part of Reform Alliance?

I was very involved with Reform Alliance, and that was something that to this day is one of the most special things I've ever done. Um, also one of the most terrifying things I've ever done. Uh, I remember the first— it was like the week we were announcing and doing that big press conference, and I was in a conference room presenting the marketing vision of it to Meek, Jay, Robert Kraft, Michael Rubin, Dez, like all of these important giants in business and culture. And I'm sitting here like kind of trembling presenting it. And at the end of it, Van Jones, who was the CEO at the time, like I got done saying my speech and like was like almost out of body experience where I'm just like talking, not even aware of what I'm saying, but just like going and pitching and Van Jones was like, I don't think we could have come up with a better idea. And I was just like, it was that moment where it was just like, I could breathe and like, every— it landed and everything went off relatively without a hitch. I mean, it's, it's an interesting thing and it's something that I can, um, truly empathize with, but never fully sympathize with because there's experiences and things that people go through in life that I can't even imagine. I can't imagine. And I'm probably more privileged that I would never be put in that situation. But being aware of that and being able to rally the right people and bring light and conversation to a certain topic was really important and felt like this is bigger than music. This is— it's bigger than rap sometimes.

It's so much bigger. It's one thing to build a career of an artist who can then do things to change the world, but it's something else to build an organization that directly changes the world. It's just, it's such an awesome thing and it's so important and it's such an incredible movement and it was, it was handled beautifully.

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, the, the, there's still an amazing team over there and they've, they've built out and they've, they've really made a lot of impact with different bills on a state-by-state basis. And a lot of it is like curbing the amount of punishment that people can get for probation and parole infractions and things like that where it's like There's a guy I remember who made an illegal U-turn and got sent back to jail because he was on probation for something that happened when he was 16 years old. And holy shit, it's just little things like that where the stakes are so much higher in giving people allowance and credence to be humans in this world and not treat them as products of a system or things that aren't fair for some people.

You know, I'm, I'm so fortunate, and I realize my privilege because I have attorneys on speed dial. Yeah. And I can't imagine going through life without that, without being able to call somebody and say, hey, this unfair thing just happened to me, and I don't know what to do. And have somebody say, hey, here's what to do. Step 1, step 2, step 3. I can't even imagine not having that.

Yeah, no, it was truly eye-opening, but I think the work that they're doing didn't just open my eyes, but opened millions of people's eyes. And it became, I mean, I remember for a while it was like the one bipartisan issue and topic that our Congress could get around, which is like really saying something in this polarized world.

It really is.

So that was special. And yeah, I mean, we were able to do a lot. There was a tour that he went on, Miek went on. That it was Meek and Future were co-headlining, DJ Mustard and YG were opening, and the first opener was, uh, Megan Thee Stallion. And, and she was at the early parts of her career. Hot Girl Summer, the song, had just came out, and she was—

she—

T. Ferris was still her manager and still is to this day, and that's, that's someone who's like a brother to her and is with her by her side. But I think they were also just some unfortunate things happened and she was looking for new management. I was kind of there. There was another person at Roc Nation who was courting her and the conversations just sort of snowballed that by the end of that tour, Roc Nation signed her as a management client. Thanks to Desiree and Kristi Clifford and a few other people that about a month or two after that tour, I got put on Megan's team as well. And that's where it just kind of like the world opened up in an incredible way for me. And I think Meek and Megan and Desiree and so many people who trusted me to be in those positions. Because I think in a lot of points of my career—

You earned it.

Yeah, I like to think I did. But I think there was points in my career where I hadn't quite— I didn't have the experience yet, but I had the drive and the know-how and I showed the ability that I think there were opportunities that people took a bet on me. And I'd like to think that I held up my end of the bargain. And then just kept running. COVID happens. Mika just had a child and was kind of chilling. So I was with Meg a lot and Savage happens. And then that opened the doors and WAP and the world started to open back up. And it was just, it was a fascinating, fascinating time to be in the music industry because I think now more than ever, we knew it at the moment, but now more than ever, there was a shift that happened in culture. There was a shift that happened in music discovery. There's a shift that happened in micro niches and communities and how the word traveled from people to people. And I like to think that artists like Meg Thee Stallion and Dua Lipa and Billie Eilish, the ones that broke during COVID were kind of at the forefront of that. And then that just sort of changed the way the game was. It's not a game. I shouldn't say the word game, but changed the way that marketing and artist promotions were done from to this day. You know, it's everything's a little different. It's a lot more digital. It's a lot more driven by digital communities and certain apps and things like that. And where you can kind of gain notoriety and start conversation and community.

If you were— and I'm going to go right down that lane, but I do want to say one thing about Megan. When WAP came out, It really took her, in my eyes, to the next level because it showed her star power and it almost made her, um, almost like a Kardashian to me. All of a sudden she went from being a really great rapper to being a superstar. And it's not that she did anything different. It's that that song took her like right into mainstream America and took her into like a character that was just larger than life to me anyway. I may be wrong. I think a lot of—

yeah, I think that's 100% right. It changed the game for herself. But a lot of it kind of goes back to like what she was already doing. Like if I'm talking music marketing, Megan is like tier one, great example of having your brand, establishing that brand, having things that drive back to the brand, having cute, clever catchphrases, having like building the world for your fans to live within and doing her hottie parties or the little ah noise things or Hot Girl Summer. Like Nobody was saying blank girl summer until Meg. She started that entire thing and now everything's blank summer or that type of stuff, which is so— that's a testament to her. That wasn't like thought of in a boardroom. That was her brain, her ideas. And a lot of what I get to do and did at that time when working with her was being able to take her ideas and support them. And I think that's what can be most special is working with people people that are artists, artists that are marketers, artists that are brands, and like seeing those different layers and being able to support those layers and, and kind of provide the scaffolding to, to building what their vision is.

I love that. I love that. One of the things that she did, um, pre-300 that I noticed about her when she was coming up and bubbling, you know, she was bubbling on the underground, is she wanted— she was very beautiful and very sexy, but she wanted to be known for more than that. So she started doing events in Houston to showcase her lyricism, and I thought that was brilliant because at the time I felt like we were getting a little bit away from lyricism. Everything was about content and social media, and she was like, no, I'm gonna go into real life and I'm gonna do these weekly events and I'm going to show people that I can rap rap, and these motherfuckers aren't gonna think that I'm just a pretty face. Like, I'm gonna show them what I can do. And I love that about her.

And that's a testament to her. That's a testament to Miss Holly, her late mother, who was a rapper and was in the Houston scene and really ingrained—

I didn't know that.

Yeah, she ingrained a lot of really kind of like fundamental things. I'd like to think— I won't speak for Megan ever, but I'd like to think that there was a lot of things that she ingrained in her of how to be a lyricist and how to be a respected artist, but also how to be a woman in the industry and how to—

Yes.

How to brand yourself. And T. Ferris comes from the Swishahouse days and was name-dropped in Still Tippin' and all this. And he's been just such an important figure in the Houston music scene. So she's always been very wise and smart and had a lot of great people around her that supported her vision. And it started with her and what she was kind of built with.

I love that. And then what made you leave the management side and go to Warner?

So there's a lot, honestly. I love Roc Nation. I love Megan. I love Meek. I love Desiree, who's CEO of Roc and has been maybe the most fundamental mentor I've ever had in my life and really taught me things and put me in rooms and spaces and trusted me and kind of gave me the, the autonomy to, to build myself up, but also help other artists. So I have nothing but respect and love for them. I think there was a bit in a moment within the management side that I was I was very exhausted. I was touring. I was, I was candidly living— you, you, if you're a real locked-in manager, you're kind of living your client's life with them. Like, yes, you are. There's a bit of, uh, what I like to call borrowed luxury, where it's like if you're successful and lucky, you're, you're on jets or you're in these rooms and things, but you realize that that luxury isn't quite yours. You're just kind of borrowing it and sort of in space. And I think I as a person was growing, maturing, and developing and realized what I really loved and wanted to do was work and continue to work in music marketing and help artists from that side. Management is the most rewarding and exciting thing I think you can do in music. I think there's so much that comes with it, but it's so much more than just one thing. It's everything. It's dealing with personal life, it's dealing with security, it's dealing with taxes, it's dealing with all of my other things on top of the music side of thing, or in Mike's case and Mick's case, the branding side of things and stuff like that. And I think I wanted to hone in and focus a little bit more, bringing it full circle. I mentioned one of my mentors when I was at, when I was a college rep, Josh Remsburg. He's the head of sales and commerce at Warner Records. And him and I were getting breakfast one day and he was just like, well, we might, I might be able to introduce you to some people, blah, blah, blah. And that one thing led to another. And Warner was kind of going through a new, a little bit of a regime change on where the marketing stuff was. Tom Corson and Aaron Bishek were still the co-chairmen and have done an incredible job here. But it's kind of where labels are at is always just trying to get better. So I was able to meet the new head of marketing that they wanted, that was brought in. And from there I was offered this role of SVP of marketing at Warner, and that kind of— I wanted to get back to LA too. I saw my life there. Yeah, yeah. I'm in a long-term 4-year relationship at this point. I was probably 2 years into that relationship, 1.5 years, and I feel very serious and important about that. And I wanted to kind of give some to my personal life and to my girlfriend and to to me a little and have some stability and still be able to do amazing things and work with artists, but, but also have a little bit more balance.

Yeah, I love that because I never had balance coming up. For me, it was just hustle culture. It was just, it was 20-hour days, 7 days a week, and I loved it, so I'm certainly not complaining. But I, I look back on it now and I think, how the fuck did I do that? Like, like balance is so important in life. So I love that you learned that at a young age.

Yeah, it was important. And I miss management. I miss the clients I've had. I miss the, like, the halo that you walk around with when you're at Roc Nation. And I think there, I'll always look back on those people in those times very fondly. But I'm also extremely happy where I'm at right now. I think Warner is, it's an incredible place and we're doing some incredible things and everybody is so aligned and focused on same goals and ideas. And that's really to just help artists where we can and break and develop artists' career and kind of take, do some of the same things I was already doing, but on more of a focused micro scale as far as what the label can provide and support artists.

I think, I think it's amazing that you got to manage artists and you have a marketing background. I think that if I could wave a magic wand and solve some of the management problems that we have in urban music, It would be to have the managers have marketing backgrounds so that everybody could stay on brand and really help their artists get to the next level and support the labels instead of sometimes like fighting what the labels are, are, are trying to accomplish. But I love that you're at Warner. I love the growth that Warner has had. Um, I've been doing this 33 years and Warner was not a place to go for rap in the '90s. It just wasn't. And now it is. You know, and that's a huge testament, um, uh, to, to like, um, Aaron Bayshock, to like people that have really come in and brought the culture of hip-hop and Black music into the label and turned it around. It's just really been amazing. And I, I love that you're there. I love the experience that you're having. Yeah, so, sorry.

No, I was just gonna say it's a special place. Like, it's, it's truly collaborative and There's a lot of really insightful and amazing people. My boss and our head of marketing, Dionne Harper, was at Atlantic for a very long time, and she came over and has offered an incredible idea, skill set, and perspective in the urban space as well as the entire marketplace. It's not just the one thing. And that's one of the things I really love about Warner is my roster is so eclectic of the artists that I work on, whether it's pop projects, hyperpop to rap to country to all of the different things. And you're able to learn to do everything.

It's not, it's not section genre. Oh, that's amazing.

Everything, which is, which is really fun. And I think like, I, I've learned so much about specifically country music and the parallels between urban music and country music where they're both tight communities and cultures, there's unwritten rules and there's ways that things are kind of moved throughout the genre and how artists are built and what the important things are. And there's still like, I don't think gatekeepers should be used here in a derogatory sense, but more of like there is still a lot of like quality control that happens, I guess, on the partner side. Yeah, there are certain artists maybe need to build their cachet to get to that point. And I think every artist now has the capability to do that and has the resources to do that, whether with or without a major. I think it's just being able to kind of learn from what the, I don't want to say system, but what the industry or culture is kind of providing you or giving you. And then the artist being able to take that, read and react from there.

I love that. I find, I have my first country artist now. And for me, it's almost like going back in time. It reminds me of like '90s hip hop because of the culture that surrounds it. It's a little bit, it's a little bit behind the time. Like, it's just starting to come into streaming, you know, as of late. And it's just really amazing for me to learn the whole Nashville inner circle, you know.

Yeah, even that is a thing that there, there's a, there's an important industry built out of Nashville. And I think the way that whether it's on songwriting Yeah, it's all built on songwriting. Not all, but it's primarily built on songwriting. And there's a way to go about these kind of pre-built structures, communities, cultures, whatever you want to call it, to not just think that you know everything when entering a new scene or culture, not approaching it with the idea of like, oh, I'm going to fix this. And there might be people there that are like, this isn't broken.

This isn't broken. You don't need to fix anything.

Yeah. Um, so that is, it's eye-opening and it's fascinating. I love Nashville. Nashville is one of my favorite cities. It is a city that is a music city. I love Los Angeles. I think I'll live here for as long as I can. Um, but Los Angeles is an entertainment city and music is an important piece of it, but it's not the whole show.

It's not a music city. Correct.

But Nashville is a music city and is music first. And as a music lover and a music fan, I think one of the first trips I ever did out there was I made sure I went to the Country Hall of Fame. And I made sure I went to some of the studios and those things to like be a student, to learn and absorb what's important and what has been, what predated me and what I can learn from those things and how I can carry myself both best for the artist, but also like within a culture or a community or scene and not think I know everything just 'cause I work at an LA or at a label or have done this or whatever. Like your experience is important, but I think, Your approach and execution is equally, if not more important.

Agreed. Agreed. And I love that sensibility. It's very respectful of the culture. And I've always been an outsider. You know, I'm female in a male-dominated industry. I'm white in a Black-dominated industry. So, I learned from an early age to come in from a curious and interested perspective, rather than, oh, I'm gonna take this over and just, you know, shit down. No, I want to learn as much as I can and add to the culture and leave it a little better than I found it.

Yeah.

So in work— sorry, sorry. No, no, go ahead.

That was— it's the same approach that I had as a young professional kind of getting into the hip-hop world as it is to— yes. Or any of those tight communities. And I think with hip hop, it's a little bit more delicate for the exact reasons you just mentioned of understanding where someone might sit within a space and what the space means to other people and the relevance of it to a larger population or growth of people than myself. And just being respectful of that and understanding how to how to support versus how to take.

Yes.

Yes.

I love that. And to me, that's the key to success right there. Like, just that whole growth mindset is— it says it all.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, I'm going to embarrass you a little bit because I believe that you're a marketing genius. I'm so excited to have you here. Um, the people that are watching this are artists that are building their own careers, and a lot of times they're frustrated. They don't know what to do. So if you don't mind, can, can I tap into your, um, look at the big brain on Brad. Can I tap into your marketing brain and have like the best way for an artist in 2025 to go about building their career?

Yeah, of course. Yeah, I think there's a lot of different steps. I think—

and it's so hard to realize what I'm asking you is not easy. I realize.

Yeah, I think the first thing I'll say is there's no prescriptive do this, do this, this, or this, and then you made it type thing. Like, every artist has an important skill set, an important thing that they can add value to. The consumer, the listener, the fan's life and perspective. So I think there's one part of introspection that's important for artists of like looking inside or working with your team or working with your friends of figuring out what that important part is. And if you don't know what that is, you can also build that. It's just like working out and building a muscle or a skill set of like, I want to be the artist My value proposition is that I add this to my listeners and fans and I add storytelling. I get them hype. I can give them something to listen to when they're sad. I can do it all. I think it's finding some— figure out what your superpower is. And I think that we all have superpowers and anyone who's creative has tons of superpowers. But being able to distill that and present that is extremely important. And then once you have that sort of, once you're working on that, you don't need to have that figured out. It's not going to be the same thing for the rest of your life or career. Things change. Sometimes it could be something that you stick with for a while, but it's not something to pigeonhole you, but to kind of an on-ramp into where you're going. And then part of it is just building, like at the end of the day, really what marketing and music is, is building communities and building and allowing pockets of people, and hopefully those pockets exponentially grow throughout your career, to be a part of your community. And that happens through grassroots in your own city and doing that, or through micro niche online communities, be it Discord or, or Twitter conversation pockets, things like that. And just finding, understanding where you can lean in and build a community. I think it's important to constantly be creating and releasing and shipping work and trying new things and getting product up and out there. And I don't love the word product in the way I just used it. I'll say that myself. But I think it's art. But it's not— your only product isn't just the music too. It's a lifestyle thing. Your creative output. It can be short-form video. It can be music videos. It can be cover art. It can be any of the kind of like touchpoints that a fan can discover you on in building out those as assets of, of creating your community.

And I think image still plays a really important role in that. I think that your image is what catches people's attention. And I think word of mouth matters more than anything, but I think that the image catches people's attention. They feel a connection and then that connection is what takes them down the rabbit hole.

Yeah.

And then you have to—

I fully agree. I fully agree. I mean, it's interesting because there's no— one of the most fun parts about my job and what I get to do is knowing that there's no one singular way that fans find music.

Correct.

There's an infinite amount of ways that they do. So it's figuring out like, where do you want to put your emphasis and effort on presenting said music in different places, whether it's a freestyle series online, whether it's a local open mic in your city. Like, it's, it's all of the different things, but honing in on 2, 3 of those things and getting really good at a couple different things is better than trying to be everything to everyone and not being able to kind of break through or cut through the noise. I think right now it's never been more competitive or difficult to break through and to cut through.

Very oversaturated.

Yeah. But I also like, that's, I don't see that as a negative either because I think that we now have more incredible artists to listen to than ever before.

And at the end of the day, I'm still a fan of music first.

And that's really where my heart and my head is, is that it's, it's so fun to go down deep rabbit holes of a singular artist or to, to find a community or culture or scene that you're really into. I think back to like, there's just so many different examples through my own life as a fan that like I try to apply those same things and reverse engineer of like, wait, why did I become a fan of this? How did I buy in further? What was the point? The song, the video, the visual thing, whatever. That really opened my eyes and got me to care for the next level. And I think artists can do the same thing and look at what they like and why they like it and reverse engineer that for themselves as well.

I love that. Is there a genre out here that— and I think genre lines are bending and changing, but is there a genre out here that's a little bit easier than another, or are they all pretty much the same in terms of I don't mean the same in terms of how you work them, but the, the level of, I don't want to say difficulty in breaking through because I actually think it's easier now than ever. It's just really, it can get clogged like a drain, but I'd rather break an artist today than in the '90s. I thought that hard.

Yeah. I don't know if there's one that's easier than the other. Like, I think, I think it's, I think because it's such an even playing field across a lot of aspects that it's almost like the same point of entry. It's just a little bit longer of a journey to get to the moments that can scale you quicker. So it's like the beginning. We all can upload music today and have it listened to today. We all can put promos and videos up. You don't have to worry about distribution. In getting a CD or a vinyl pressed and sent out or getting Apple to feature you, those kinds of things. You don't have to worry about getting your music video on a network because you can just put a video on an app that somebody is already spending 4 hours a day on who could be a potential fan. So there's the same amount of ease and access points, I think, for everyone. I think there's some that are a little more challenging. I think like the pop space is a little bit more challenging because there is, it's a bit more of an open culture. We're talking about country and hip hop where it's a tight culture and there's a little bit of set of, I don't wanna say set of rules, but a set of like, there's a path that you can go and there's certain benchmarks and things and there's a bit more rites of passage in those industries, whether in country it's the Opry or in hip hop it's on the radar, you know, like there's certain things where it's just like you can sort of, you sort of know where the track is with pop. It gets a little murky because it's not, not all pop is every pop is everything and indescribable at the same time.

So, and there's track, it's, it's sort of shotgun as opposed to sniper.

Right, exactly. Which the joy of pop is that there's probably the high, it's the highest ability to scale to the biggest point because even if you are in a tight genre specific culture that can turn into pop, as where pop can't always turn into the other thing. So this— so the ceiling is much higher, but the floor is a bit lower as well of how to get all the way up there. So that can be a bit more difficult of cutting through and breaking through the, the clutter. But I think there's also— we've also seen such an incredible renaissance of like fun female pop artists in recent years, and, and there's a lot of male pop stars that are starting to bud up. And Warner's been very instrumental in a couple different ones that it's seeing my colleagues and friends and teammates do incredible things with artists that did not, did not have that path until sometimes it's just a catalyst moment. And it really all that, what is it? The overnight success takes 10 years type thing.

It's exactly that.

And that, that can kind of happen a little bit more. In pop and somewhat in hip hop. And it depends, like dance is also another more of a tight culture where it's like there's a bit more rite of passage, but then once you're able to get through and kind of pass through the gatekeepers, you're heralded and held in regard for a long time.

Agreed. Agreed. In terms of marketing a newer artist, and I'm going to direct this towards hip hop just because it's my world. Um, I'm, I'm a very unpopular girl because I'm forever preaching that for me to break an artist, I need at least $150,000. And that's a budget. I don't mean for me. I need a budget of quite a bit of money in order to hit break even. And of course it takes me like, you know, anywhere from a year and a half to 3 years, but is there anything that an artist can do with a lesser budget that you could recommend that might help them move the needle? Because I can't and I hate that I can't.

I, yeah, I think so.

Good. Thank you.

Like, I think, and like, they're going to hate me for saying this, is like, TikTok is your friend, not your enemy. And I think there is the, you now, like, all right. So think of social networks. Social media. Like, all right, we know what that means, capital S social, capital M media, but like, take, take the, the actual what the words mean, right? It's like a social network where there's a network of people that are socially sharing ideas and, and talking and going in exchange with one another. That was really where Instagram, Twitter, Facebook started and perpetuated. Now to this day, all of these platforms are so algorithmically driven that you are able— it's not as much of a social thing. It's not like talking to your social friends, but it's almost more of like an entertainment network where you're now on these platforms and apps to be entertained. And you don't really go on there to be entertained by your friends, but entertained by that funny girl in Colorado who makes that silly video or that artist you've never heard of that is like another artist who you do like and you searched and engaged with them and then you got cookied to be into their algorithm and drive from there. So I think like using it, it can be daunting and it can be discouraging and it can be simply like painful for artists that are trying to find their footing on some of these apps with algorithms that are so heavily driven of like pitching you to new people and some content and stuff might not click. But I think the most important thing you can do is be an advocate for yourself as an artist and posting as much content, videos, like your digital footprint is your foundation and being able, letting those algorithms pitch you to different people. Like you don't have to pitch yourself to your friends on the early version of Instagram. Now you make a reel and it gets sent, the algorithm's pitching you for you. So I think the reach can be greater. And I think the first thing is taking maybe even a couple hundred bucks and doing a video shoot, a short-form video day with a videographer you might know or a friend with a camera or whatever and do 5 performance videos, 5 videos where you break down 5 different songs and like a behind-the-scenes type thing. 5, more of like trend, maybe content-based stuff. And that trend can vary. I'm not saying like everyone needs to go do whatever the popular dance is or the popular text on screen thing. But there's ways that you can talk to your consumer that fits within the lexicon or the meme or whatever it is in that micro-niche and culture that you can relate to people and put your music with that and grow exposure that way. And I think that's not going to break in and develop an artist fully, right? Like, that's just the first step to where I believe to go. But I think there's now more than ever a lower— the lower barrier to entry can provide opportunity for so many more people.

How important is it for an artist to try new and different things? Like, if their content isn't really catching, how important is it for them to break out of whatever's not working and try new shit? Does that matter?

It's super important. I mean, I think that's like, it's just like anything in the world, right? Where it's like, this isn't working, what am I gonna do? Keep doing the thing that's not working or try something else that could work? And that's not to say whatever you do next is going to work, but it's just like, it's the same thing as like dating. If you are meeting a bunch of people at the same bar or the same club or the same app and none of those are working, there's a point where you have to take accountability and responsibility of you entering yourself into that situation and then it not working. And not just like subscribing to the idea that like, well, nothing is working for me because blah blah blah. It's— I think being able to look inside and, and, and have some accountability is really important. And that goes for a manager, a label, whoever that are trying and working to break an artist, that we need to keep our approach fresh and try new ideas and not be prescriptive and not do checkbox ideas and offerings. And that's something that we try to pride ourselves on and always keep in the forefront of our head is being innovative and trying new things and trying different features in an app or trying to pair talent with other people who are relevant in a culture to to build notoriety together, things like that. Like, I think the other thing is that the marketplace has never been better for collaboration. Like, everyone kind of wants to work together, whether it's on content, whether it's on music, whether it's on other creative expression, that that's another thing that generally can be a pretty free to inexpensive experience is building a relationship with people. And I think one thing I say to other music professionals and even artists is like, remembering to like network horizontally, not just vertically. Like you can hit up XYZ artist who's your favorite artist and they're not going to answer you because they're already established in doing that. But who are the other artists in your scene? Who's the artist that's not in your city but making similar music in Manchester?

Who's the same level you are? Or even a little above or a little below, but exactly the same level.

And then you look around 5, 8 years from now and you're like, man, that's crazy. We came back from there to here and now we've built that together. So it's like finding, it's being able to find those people that you can build with. And build is such a funny word in the whole like Linkin Build world and culture of music and hip hop and stuff. But it's generally important that like some of my best friends I have to this day are people that I've known for 8 years or have been assistants with or started at a very early stage in my career. And now we're at different spots where we can still help each other and collaborate and understanding that like not everybody needs to be your best friend to collaborate with them and not everyone needs to like everyone who's in your space is your enemy or competition either. So I think those are two strategies is like a content-forward strategy and a collaboration strategy and those kind of overlap in some ways and being able to, to apply those and, and allowing moments to build on other moments, and momentum begets more momentum. And, and yes, it does, to read and react.

Is it important to engage with fans still? Like, if somebody is commenting on your social media, should you comment back? Should you hold a conversation with them?

Absolutely. I think that's still and always will be one of the most important things. Like, I think Authenticity and relatability are, if not now, more— they might be more important than they've ever been before, honestly. And I think that fans want to— because fans are able to get access to everyone, they're going to spend the time with the artist communities, scenes, pockets, pages, whatever, that are engaging back with them. In helping your fans feel seen will go such a long way. I'm reading, listening to this. There's a Harvard Business Review book about the genius and the strategy of Taylor Swift. I have the utmost respect for Taylor Swift. I'm not the biggest fan of her music, not really personally my cup of tea. But I think the way that she's been able to build herself from a 15-year-old country artist to the biggest pop star of our generation, quite possibly ever on the Mount Rushmore, right? It's unbelievable. That started where early in her career, she would meet every single fan at every show. She would take every picture. She would do every single interview. She would do everything that was asked of her because she understood the, the way that this is scaled is by other people. Spreading the, the good word about her and evangelizing fans. So if you're able to talk to every one of your fans, they're not just going to keep that conversation there. They're going to tell their friends, then their friends are going to come to try to get a piece of you in some ways, whether it's listen to your music, buy your merch, comment on your video, and then that just kind of continues to beget more, more support.

Agreed. I always say that we run ads not to build awareness, but to spread word of mouth. Mouth because ads don't benefit anybody. It's word of mouth that builds a career.

Yeah.

And if, if I can get people talking in a good way about somebody, I've got them.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think that's super important. I think it's, it's also now more than ever important to create those in real life moments, whether you're a big artist and you go out in the crowd during your show or bring fans up on stage during the show, or a smaller artist who, if they don't, if they can't get a show booked for them, we'll figure out which bar or venue in your city wants an open mic night and build the show around yourself.

Build it.

Yes. Building, being able to creating those in real life moments and then inviting your friends and have your friends invite their friends. And then you have people who are expecting you and waiting for you to do that and going out there and talking to them and just always being a person that is open, I think is very important. And I know that's not that easy either. Like, I, it would be dismissive if I was like, expected everybody to be outgoing or in person. But I think that's the beauty of the internet too, is like, yes, I just said always be in per— have an in-person footing. But like, if you're not ready for that, there's so many digital communities, whether they're above board on social media platforms or kind of like in different conversation pockets or fandoms or Discord or Twitch, or there's all these different services.

There's some people.

Exactly. So word of mouth.

That— I love that. Thank you so much for, um, sharing the marketing side. And I would love to just touch on your life side, if you don't mind, because it's something that nobody ever asked me when I was coming up, like in terms of balancing your life, and you seem to be really good at it. How do you do that? Because I'm a severe workaholic. Like, how do you find time for everything?

I try. I, I don't— I wouldn't say I— I appreciate the compliment, the praise on it. Like, I, I find it important, but I also, like, I, I am very dedicated to what I do, and I understand the, like, gravitas of at the end of the day, I get to go home and live my life, but that the artists who have entrusted Warner, Roc Nation, whoever, Sam in any form, that it's their career and their livelihood in that. So it's something that like, yeah, you have to take that seriously. And it's okay to not always— might be counterproductive to say this, but it's okay to not always have that balance because I want the people who are entrusting in me to feel supported. And I think that's the kind of constant line. That you have to go through. And the things that have made me feel most balanced or supported is just like being around loved ones, whether it's friends, my girlfriend, my family. Like, my mom was just in, uh, my— she lives right outside of Detroit, and she was just in LA for the past 10 days. She left on Saturday, and I intentionally had her come out on Coachella weekend because I didn't— I wasn't obligated to be there. And I needed to like spend some time with her and I really wanted to see her. And I knew that it would be a little— there would be a lot of industry and people out there and it wouldn't be as demanding of me during— yes, let me double down on that. And instead of pulling myself into the Matrix when I don't need to, like, let me take this moment to like build more relationships with my mom. And it's the most time I've spent with my mom, just her and I. My girlfriend lives with me and she hanging with us the whole time too. But it's the most time I've spent with my mom since I was— maybe ever. Like, my parents got divorced when I was young. Like, I lived with my dad, and I'm still super close with both of them. It's not a bad thing, but I don't— as an adult, I've never spent 10 days in a row with my mom.

Isn't that awesome?

So it was just like— it was incredible. So it's— I think it's like finding time to do those things and to carve that ability out and like being just as mindful and taking responsibility in yourself just the same way that I mentioned taking responsibility and knowing that artists are trusting you. I think your family has to trust you to know when to make those calls and just listen to yourself and find different ways. Like, I try to hold every single Sunday that I spend with my girlfriend, and that's just like, we keep Sundays open. We all make dinner or go somewhere or do something like that. Just unless there's times things come up for myself or for her, she travels for work and she's not always home either. But being able to like center yourself and having consistent things, that's what I found was best, is like scheduling things. Because I'm so busy that like scheduling time to be with people was very important instead of just like expecting it to pop up.

It, it will never pop up because there's always something else to do for work. There's always something to do for work. I love that. It, it took me a very long time to realize that it's okay to schedule, just like I schedule meetings, I schedule like lunch with friends, or I schedule— exactly, I do art classes, so I schedule art classes on my calendar. And it's funny to me because just like I'll put like a meeting with you on my calendar and I will never miss it, it's the same with something for myself. I will not miss it if it's on my calendar.

What kind of art do you do?

Glass art. Kiln-form glass. Yeah, I cut stuff out of glass, put it in the kiln, let melt together, make plates and bowls. It's really a lot of fun. That's great. Cool.

I'm sure it's fun. It's good to— and I think it's important as like people in this industry to also stay in tap— stay tapped in and in tune with create other creative endeavors within our own lives. Like I've, I've dabbled in like— I have like a synthesizer at home and I don't like really record much. I've never put anything out, but I love playing with it and just like making weird ambient music that I like. Like things like that, or, or, or writing creative writing and stuff like that. Like, I think as professionals in a creative industry, if you ever let yourself— there's always a business of art and commerce, right? And if you let yourself live too far in one of those, it's hard to be able to navigate both of them.

Yes. And it's also so much easier to deal with creatives when we have a creative side ourselves, because we understand that thinking, we understand the process. It's not just like being a suit up against a creative and it's butting heads. It's like, oh, I get it. I get the process. You can't just turn it on and off the way, you know, I can, I can do a spreadsheet. I can turn that on and off. I can do one right now, you know, but I can't always just be creative and make a cool thing out of glass. It's not always there. It's something I have to tap into.

Yep, exactly.

Is there anything that I haven't asked you that I should have?

I don't know. I want to ask you more questions, but maybe—

go for it.

I, I'm just curious, like, where— what were the most rewarding things that you've done in your career, moments you've had specifically with artists that, like, recharged your battery? Because to me, like, my family recharges my battery and all those things, but truly nothing gets me more excited than, like, wins on, on the field. You can be big wins with artists having— helping build their vision and things come true. And I'm just curious from from your point of view, like what, what were the moments that like really recharge your battery or put more wind in your sails to keep going?

What a great question. So early in my career, it was the career wins, like discovering Eminem outside of the Athenaeum Hotel, right? And then doing Rap Olympics so that he would get signed to Interscope. That was huge. Doing the Cash Money deal was huge. Um, helping, uh, Do or Die and Twist to put out music into the market. But this is like Earl all within the first 6 years of my career, right? Yeah. So that was big. But now I'm 33 years in and it's changed. Like now I have a different perspective. It's more, it's, it's, it's, it's more bird's eye. Like I'm up in the air looking down on 33 years instead of in the forest looking at 6. And the things that really stand out to me now are, um, 3 years ago, um, in fact, there was an artist signed to Warner called IDK, and IDK did this thing at Harvard where he brought in 25 students, and these are kids that would never normally get to step on campus at Harvard in Cambridge. And when I heard that he was teaching them for an 8-day period, I called him, had no idea who he was. I, I cold called him and said, Can I come? And he's like, you're Wendy Day. I'm like, can I come? And he's like, yeah, but I don't have a budget. I don't give a fuck. I'm coming. Please, please let me come. I'll just sit in the audience. If you have any questions, I'm happy to help. I'll just be there to support you. And it was the most amazing thing. Like, when I'm sitting at 80 years old on a front porch— hopefully I will be— that's one of the things I'm going to remember. And to me, that was so much bigger than anything that I, that I, that I just explained to you. Like, that was incredible. Speaking at Berkeley College to the students, they asked such amazing questions. And then one of the things that I don't do is I don't ever— I don't ever listen to music and give feedback because I don't feel I'm qualified. I feel that the, that the The fans need to tell you what's good. I shouldn't ever be asked, because if, if I were— if it were up to me to sign artists, I wouldn't have signed Drake, I wouldn't have signed Kanye. I don't think they're talented. I'm sorry, I see their success, but I would have never signed them. So I shouldn't get to say who's good and who's bad. The fans should. And I got to, um, I got to, to, to judge this event where 8 artists played their music. And instead of giving them feedback on the music side, because there were 2 other people there that were on the creative side that were way more available to do that, I gave them marketing insight. Like, yeah, like I gave them my opinion on how they should put it out into the marketplace. And I'm like, oh, I didn't know that I could do that. I should have been doing that my whole career instead of like saying, oh, it's good.

Or yeah, yeah, yeah.

'Turn down your vocals.' Fuck that. Here's how I would market if I were you.

Yeah.

So that's the kind of stuff that stands out in my mind. Um, and then of course the different people that I've met that are just amazing human beings. Nima, we have a friend in common. I love Nima. I think such an amazing human being.

He's a very benevolent man, and he just cares. Him and I worked very closely together at Roc Nation and have Yes, good friendship.

And, and not just on the genius side of the business, but like, he is saving lives. He's putting homeless people in apartments. He's saving dogs from, you know, from fires when the fires hit. Like, he's just such an— I'm so in awe of him. And those are the things that now drive me 33 years in, where I can look back at the stuff that matters to me. That's the shit that matters to me. Seeing Rakim perform for the first time, going out on the road with Slick Rick now, you know, not back then. Back then was cool, but now it's like legacy. It's just, it's a different beast.

Yeah.

And it's—

how, how special is that to— I mean, congratulations. That's good. I'm glad. I mean, 30 years in, I think you deserve your flowers and, and to be celebrated, because that's—

it's not easy. I can't believe I lasted this long.

It's not, it's not easy.

I thought I would do this for 5 years and then go back into corporate America and make a shit ton of money, because this, for me, I— and I've chosen this, like, I'm not wealthy doing this. I mean, I'm doing okay, right? I'm, I'm— I have a beautiful home and I live here by myself and I love it, but I didn't do this to become a multimillionaire. I did this to change lives. So I'm really fortunate that I'm here 33 years later and I'm still changing lives and making a difference.

I think that's like the thing I always try to keep in mind too, is that what I do is an act of service and I need to be okay with it being an act of service because an act of service, it's the nature of that means that it won't always be what I want. To do. It won't always be on my terms. It won't always be easy. But the commitment to serve artists and to work with them and support them in their endeavors is what rewards me when it goes. So I need to always keep that focus and clarity and that like samurai warrior mindset of like discipline and not getting too emotional or reacting too much or There's a lot of trickle-down stress too that I've seen where maybe sometimes someone is mean to someone and then they turn around and they're mean to someone else because they were just dunked on. And it's things like that. And nobody's perfect. There's, there's times and conversations and things that I think about as a, as a man and a professional that I think I would have handled myself differently or better. But I think we all have those moments and being able to learn from them moving forward is what's most important, because the past is in the past.

It's true. I, I think one of the most valuable things that I learned in my career that I'll share, share with you is that the better you can get at managing expectations, the better you can control your environment. Because if somebody— if they're expecting this to happen and then this happens, they're going to be disappointed, or they're going to be— because they have an attachment to what they think something's going to be. And the better we can manage our clients' expectations or an artist's expectations, the easier this all becomes. Because then everything above that is a gift as opposed to an expectation.

Absolutely. No, I think that's, that's totally right. And that comes, but that comes, that's, that's true for life.

That's true for life. Yes.

With friends. And I think part of it is, is not just selling someone a bill of goods, but also like being there and supporting it and also Giving your word and keeping it in your friendships and your relationships and to yourself and to yourself. Yeah.

Yeah. I didn't realize that. I didn't realize until last year that self-care was keeping your word to yourself because I'm somebody who like, I enjoy pleasing other people, but I would sometimes abandon myself in order to do that. And I realized that's not self-care. Like if I'm going to keep my word to you, I also need to be able to keep my word to myself and it's equally as important. And I never realized that. And it's like, how did I get to be this age and not realize that?

You know, that's what wisdom is.

That's what wisdom is. Thank you so much for doing this.

This was, this was very fun. I'm honored and appreciate your time and your energy and your effort.

I love what you, what you shared and it's so actionable and topical, topical. And thank you so much.

Yeah, thank you. It's an honor. I'm glad to be on. I'm sure we'll chat many times after this, so thank you for the time.

I hope so.

And thank you for building this space for people and, and always being so sharing.

Had to. I have to. It's just, it's, it's in me. It's like, it's like throwing up, you know, when you have to throw up and you fight it, you can't, you throw up anyway. That's this. I, I've got to share.

I've got to do it. Amazing.

Thank you.

Thank you for the time.