How To Place Digital Meta Ads :: Blane from PowerMoves x Wendy Day

Lane, how are you? Thank you so much for joining me.

Yes ma'am, yes ma'am, I'm doing great. How are you doing?

I'm good, I can't complain at all. It's summer, the weather's beautiful. Yeah, life is good.

AC is working. AC is working.

Yeah, AC's working. Yep, absolutely. So I brought you here today because I would love for you to talk a little bit about how to run digital ads like you've mastered that. And by the way, kudos for learning that, because you really— like, you're self-taught, and you've really gone deep into understanding that. And you do an amazing job for our clients. And thank you.

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I, um, I don't feel like I've mastered it. I feel like I'm very much like a beginner, intermediate almost, you know, but, but I realized I know more I know more than I think I know sometimes. So, um, but I enjoy it, and I enjoy it to an extent. It's a necessary thing that I, uh, pursued. And one thing I'd like to say, just for anyone who's feeling overwhelmed by thinking of like digital ads, is like, I thought I would never be able to like get digital ads up and running by myself, right? Like when I started first learning about it excuse me, when I started first learning about it, I was like, this is insane. Like, this is so much to deal with. Meta's business, like, Meta business is like, that platform is always overwhelming. It feels like janky. There's like—

and doesn't it freeze up on you?

Like, yeah, yeah.

And when you're— and it'll just disappear. Like, it's not—

right. And so when you're first— when you're first learning it though, you're like Well, it can't be their platform that's messing up. Like, it's—

that's Facebook.

Like, it's got to be me that's messing up. But then you realize, no, their platform messes up somewhat frequently and always freezes up or has some issues. And sometimes it works better on Chrome, sometimes Chrome freezes. So I just want to say that, like, if you're thinking about starting to get involved in it and it feels overwhelming, it's always going to feel a little overwhelming. But as you do it and you start to see results and you start to see that you're able to you get the things done that you're trying to get done, or you're getting closer to those goals, you start to say like, okay, I can manage this. Like, and now there's so much information out on the internet, which almost sometimes to like, almost like it gives like an out, like paralysis almost, because there's so much information. You're like, well, should I do it this way? Should I do it that way? Um, and so that can be challenging, but finding pieces of information from trusted, um, resources, and, and maybe resources that do this, um, for a living and don't have bad reviews or don't have like any horror stories, or there aren't people just like saying like in the comments constantly saying like this stuff doesn't work, then maybe learn from those people. Um, because that's what I did, you know, like I found people who were actually doing this and actually um, like giving out really good information. And then I started applying those things and started to learn some on my own. And, you know, they were like my training wheels for it.

I love it. I love it. I remember when I first started, um, when I first hired somebody in-house to run ads for our clients, um, and this was before you— this is before you worked with us, um. I had somebody full-time because we were spending so much money on digital ad fees that it just made sense to bring somebody in-house. But I remember in doing the research to figure out like who to hire, you know, when you hire somebody for a position, you gotta kind of learn the position so you know what to look for. And I was learning that digital ads don't work for artists, and that's just not true.

Right.

I find that like almost exclusively in the beginning of us working with a brand new artist, it's all digital ads.

It's very dependent. Yeah. I mean, a lot of times it's— the growth is very dependent on ads, especially as we're dealing like with a time where there's so much content. And so like I said, you know, first of all, it does start— it starts with the content. If you make good organic content, then that's going to be what converts for ads as well. And so, but I will say like sometimes artists are making pretty good content, but for some reason it's not catching in the algorithm maybe. And I've seen where like I take some of those videos and start to run ads on them and they start to perform very well as far as the ad, like ad placements.

So that's good to know.

Yeah, not to say like, I'm not— I don't want to advise people to be like, hey, take shitty videos and then go run ads on them, right?

It doesn't work.

And when I say shitty, I don't mean like bad quality footage, because sometimes, like, you'd be surprised, like, a lot of times, like, iPhone videos are what converts best for ads. Oh, that's interesting, because people don't want to be advertised to.

Correct.

You know, and so I think, I think that's really the key.

Like, we have to remember that people are on social media to be entertained, not to discover music, right? So we're kind of interrupting them from their scroll.

Right.

So if you're not entertaining, why should they stop? They're not there to hear your music, right?

Right. It's all about entertainment. And, um, with that being said, like— oh wow, I just had a major, uh, brain fart.

Um, it's okay, I know the editor.

Yeah.

At least she didn't get up and pee.

That's hilarious.

Um, we were talking about good content doesn't necessarily have to be like filmed with the highest quality.

Yes. So people don't want to be advertised to, they come on social media to be entertained. And so sometimes artists come with a very high-fidelity music video that is very entertaining to them because it's them on it. They look like a professional artist. They, they feel like it brought a vision to life. But if it's not entertaining on its own, just because it's high fidelity does not mean it's going to perform well. Um, and oftentimes it's opposite. Like, oftentimes it's the selfie videos, it's the videos that, um, catch them at a live performance and it looks like it was filmed from the crowd or something. Um, it's not always the high-fidelity stuff. So don't feel like in order to start running ads on your stuff, you need to go blow thousands of dollars on a visual.

So let me, let me ask you this, because I, I learned this from LaRussell, and I think LaRussell has a great business model, but I'm wondering if this would be true for everybody. So what he does is he puts out like a shit ton of content And then he waits until a piece of content starts to organically move a little bit, and then he puts a budget behind that. Does that make sense? Is that right? Is that wrong?

Yeah, I think, I think that's a perfect, uh, strategy to go about it with. And just to add like a piece of advice for artists who maybe have a much smaller following than LaRussell is you can judge your content on the engagement it gets. It doesn't have to go viral for you to say, well, this should probably be the one that gets an ad. You know, if you're used to getting 70 likes and 4 shares and like 8 comments, but then you have a video that gets 100 likes and 15 comments and, you know, 10 shares, that's the video that you should run your ads on.

Interesting. And then when you run ads, like, what do you run them to? Like, what should your point of the ad be? I know there's different—

yeah, so I think there's, from my viewpoint with an artist, there's like a hierarchy of ads that can be run, right? And depending on what your strategy is, like, each, each hierarchy or each level of ad may be what's best for you. But so I usually explain it like this is first tier is like basically like engagement type of ads, getting people to watch your video, getting people to see your, your Instagram page or Facebook page or whatever, and, and just engaging with them on the platform. That's going to be your cheapest type of, um, ad that you can run for the number of awareness.

Is that an awareness campaign?

Yep. So there's awareness campaigns, there's a few different categories that like Meta does them by now. Um, and like, it's funny, you know, I do this stuff every day, but if I'm like thinking about it and I don't have it in front of my face, I don't remember all of the categories. But yeah, there's awareness campaigns, which includes like video views and things like that, but that's on platform, like ads, right? And you're not asking them to do anything other than engage with either that video or that post or go to your profile on said social media. And those are going to be the cheapest conversions because you're not asking for much, right? And if the content is good, then it should convert pretty well on those, like getting people to visit your profile or getting them to watch the video. And there's— I, I think what Russell uses those ads and like does really well with that kind of, uh, ad campaign. However, like, I don't think that's always the answer, right? Like, it depends on what each person's strategy is. And I think, um, I could be like completely speaking wrongly, like Russell may not use those kinds of ads, but I think he does and they work really well for him. So just because I'm saying those are like on the first tier of ads doesn't mean that they're not useful. It just means that you're getting a cheaper rate on something, so therefore those fans may be less invested and what they're doing for you, like what your ask is, right? So then the next tier for me would be like a conversion sort of, uh, ad campaign where you're sending people to streaming platforms. And that's a bigger ask because you're asking them to leave the platform that they're on to, you know, doom scroll or be entertained by or whatever. You're asking them to leave that platform and actually take an action on checking you out somewhere else and taking the time to listen. Um, so that's a bit more expensive, right? And, and where I'm looking at there, like the ideal rate, definitely want it under 40 cents, um, ideally below 35 cents. And a really good, you know, cost per, cost per conversion there, like cost per link click would be like 25 cents and under, or 30 cents and under. But I really like to get it under 25 cents if possible. And but you're asking for a bigger ask, so it's a little bit more expensive to get people to engage with that. But you're hoping that these people that are willing to click out of this platform and listen to me, hopefully those people will follow me because that's a bit of an easier ask. Hopefully those people will interact with my content now because they were willing to do a bigger step and go listen to my stuff. Now the issue there is you can run up your numbers on streaming, which is awesome, and you can potentially spark the Spotify algorithm and start to get an algorithmic playlist, which ultimately can lead you to a lot. But when you're spending money on conversion ads, you're not going to see— think about it, if you're paying, let's say, a good rate, $0.25 per link click, you're getting what's the rate point? $0.0004 per listen. So unless they listen, you know, a significant amount of times, you're not making your money back on that kind of ad, although it's more of a long-term play, I would say. Um, and you're building your audience. So then I would take it up to another level to where we're getting into, uh, owned media, where you're running ads to get people to opt in to an email or text or SMS marketing. And so what you're doing there is— that's a pretty big ask. You're asking them for their personal information. So you wanted your cat and, and, and you're capturing that to use in the future. But when you're asking people for their information, you want to give them something that makes it worth their while to give you their email. You know, you want to, you want to incentivize that. And so that's where I would say, so, you know, you have your first level, which is like on-platform advertising for engagement purposes. Then you have your conversion campaigns, which are to get people to streaming. Then you have your opt-in campaigns, which are to ultimately get owned media so that if your Instagram gets hacked and you lose all your followers, you still have contact, direct contact with your followers. Now, with that being said though, as you're building an email list, you can't just build the email list and just hope it keeps building and put that in the closet and leave it alone. You have to implement a strategy that is constantly interacting with your email list. So that adds in a whole nother dynamic to like, you know, do you have the time to do that? Are you willing to actually do that and utilize it? But the good thing is, is the email list can ultimately turn into profit, like direct sales. That's where you make your offers. That's where you build a deeper relationship and you have one-on-one contact with your potential fans. And at that point, like if they're subscribed to your email list and they're opening your emails or clicking on the links in your emails, they're a fan of yours. And if you can get them to do that and you, you nurture that enough, you can start to make sales to them and give them special offers and figure out what's cool to them and use that as like basically like your test base. Hey, we were thinking about making these shirts and this is the, the, this is the design I'm thinking, or we were thinking about printing vinyls, like do you like vinyl? You know, you can ask them questions and get real life feedback and start to build like basically a population of what your fan base looks like and what they're interested in, and it teaches you how to nurture them further.

I love that. And it becomes a culture instead of a relationship based on transaction.

Exactly. Like, they're a part of that in-circle, you know what I mean? They're part of your community at that point.

You've done an amazing job of building that for your art.

Yeah, and, and it's been a real hardcore fans. Yeah, and it's been a slow build. And like, if people look at our socials and stuff, they're like, oh well, it's only like a few thousand followers and stuff. But it's like, but then within that community, they're buying our art. Like, they're actually financially supporting us, and like, we're able to generate more than we would from our streaming., you know, if that same amount of people were streaming our music, which they are now that they're a part of it. But right, um, I know I've been kind of going on tangents on each tier, but then, so I want to get to the next tier, which is like direct sales offers, right? And that can start off with like, um, like incentivizing that. Um, there's a company, Indiepreneur, that really popularized the free shipping and handling offer within music. That's an offer that's been popularized amongst like all sorts of like online marketing, but within music they, they popularize that. And I love that strategy where, you know, you make some compelling content or use content that's worked, and within the copy you talk about how you want to give the people a free CD and you want this to be kind of like a low-budget item for yourself, right? And it can be other things, but people actually do like buying physical art, and normally the physical art sells— there's a better conversion with that than there is like soft goods like t-shirts and stuff like that. But you make, you make an offer and you're like, hey, I want to give you this for free. All you got to do is pay the shipping and handling. And then within that, then you upsell, right? So they get, they come to get the free album, they claim that, but then it's like, hey, I also have this project that comes with all this cool stuff that you can buy. And so as you're running those campaigns, again, the, the cost per conversion of that gets higher but now you're directly marketing to people that are purchasing your stuff. And so you're actually making money back on that. And those people are going to be people that you can— you know, I forget the percentage, but you're that much more likely to sell something to them again. And as well as those people are going to go stream your music and they're going to keep up with you on social media, friends, and you're getting their email address if they're— if they're getting like even if they just come to get the free, uh, CD, right, you're still getting their email address. You're still able to, like, contact them again. So those are kind of the tiers that I place it at, and I'm sure there's other aspects within all of those that we could discuss. And I'm sure there's other marketers who are probably far superior to my skill level that would have arguments on each of those and maybe have more tiers, but that's, that's kind of how I look at it.

I would love to, um, When we talked about the second tier, you talked about the cost per click of 25 cents on, on one type of campaign, 40 cents on the other, as being like a good thing, uh, a good measuring stick. Can you talk about each tier and what somebody— like, I'm gonna ask you what a good budget is and what's a good cost per click for each tier?

Yeah, definitely. So, you know, like with the conversion, ideally under 35 cents. Like, that's the streaming conversion. When it comes to getting opt-in for email, anywhere under $2. And then when it comes to like direct sales marketing, it's really— that's when you kind of get into return on ad spend. ROAS is the acronym for it. But, um, and like, honestly, if you're, if you're, if you're making— let's say for every dollar you're spending, you're getting 90 cents back, so you're only spending 10 cents out of that to make a sale. Like, that's when you kind of like start to look at it a little bit more dynamically, um, and that becomes like Your ROAS becomes your focus there. How much am I spending compared to what is my average sale conversion? You know what I mean? And, and luckily Meta gives you that data if it's— if you have your pixels like, like proper.

So, got it. Um, what type of monthly budget should somebody budget for when they're first starting out?

I think people need to think about what they can do to keep it consistent, right? So, you know, there's been times in my career, and I'm not the best person, I haven't been completely consistent with my ads, like, running continuously, running. But I would say, like, figure out what you can do in a month and then divide that by how many days are in the month, you know. I, I think like, you know, if you're spending $100 a month, you're not going to see great results. You still might see some growth, and it gives you a way to kind of like, if you're not catching organically with content and you're willing to put like $100 a month, that's all you can do, then you can kind of— it's like a further test of your content. Okay, I'm not catching organically, but like, what is my better content? I think $100 will help you solve that problem. Of like seeing what actually does better, um, because you're paying to get in front of more people. So if I'm paying that much, what's actually connecting? It will give you that. But if you're looking at like, I'd say with like streams, like if you're converting into streams, I would say $10 a day, um, you'll start to see some results there. And that will also give you more information on what content is working and things like that. Um, if you're starting to get into like opt-in, you could, you could do it probably on $10 a day if you've got really good content and a really good offer for email opt-in, but I probably want to be doing more than that. And then when it comes down to like Sales offers, again, it kind of depends on your return on ad spend, but I know like a number that I've been advised upon is like at least $30 a day.

Got it.

Um, and that's still not going to be like— you're not going to get— you're probably not going to get the craziest results on $30 a day, um, when you're doing like sales, like direct sales. But if you can start to figure out what works for you on $30 a day and you're like building your system, then that allows you to say, okay, well, what's my return on ad spend? And if I know, like, okay, generally my— I'm spending $30 a day, but after like 10 days I've based— so, you know, let's say after 10 days you spent $300, but let's say you've returned $200 of that. Now you know that like your real ad spend for the past 10 days has only been $100 that you've lost. So now you can be like, okay, well, can I afford $50 a day? And then what happens when I go up to $50 a day? Am I still getting the same conversion rate, or, you know, or better? Yeah, or better.

Yeah, I love that. Certainly not worse, because then pull it, right?

Right, definitely. Or, or make some alterations. And that's, that's another thing, um, is I think people— it gets confusing around what alterations to make. And when to make them. Because there's a lot of people, myself included, on certain ads that I've run where like I get panicky and I'm like, it's been 2 days and this didn't work out, like I need to, I need to completely change this. And then, um, there's been times where like I spoke to people way, uh, wiser than me on all this and they're like, hey, maybe just change this part of your copy and run that for a couple days and see if that works. And You know, so with some of this is like you have to be willing to devote the time and sometimes like lose the money, right? Which isn't always fun.

Like you want to see it converting to what you have to take risk to figure out what works. Risk isn't failure, it's learning. It's learning what not to do.

Agreed. And like some of my best lessons have come from like oh shit, we just lost $200, not really like analyzing that as well as we could have, or whatever it may be. And I'm like, I, you know, like, I don't want to just lose that. So let me learn this a little bit better.

I love that. So that just triggered a bunch of questions, if you don't mind. So we're talking about Meta here, which is Facebook and Instagram, and then I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you about YouTube and TikTok in a minute. But I just want to keep focusing, focusing on, on Meta for a minute, if you don't mind. I know that you set up a separate account at Meta Business. So if you could talk a little bit about how to do that for somebody that hasn't, and then would you also talk about how long it takes the algorithm to kick in? Because I know that you can't just start running ads brand new for 2 days and be like, oh, it's not working, right? Algorithm. And then, and I'll come back and remind you if you forget all these, but I just want you to see where I'm going with the questioning. And then if you could talk about that that lovely boost button that everybody seems to want to use on Instagram, that it shouldn't be there.

Yeah.

And then lastly, if you would explain A/B testing. So I know that's a whole lot, and I'm gonna remind you as you go through it.

Okay, cool. Yeah, so first thing is like setting up your Meta Business Suite.

Yes.

Um, so if you haven't done that, go to business.facebook.com, log in with your Facebook information, Ideally, you have your LLC set up. If you don't, you can still kind of like get away with not having that and just do it like sole proprietor basically and sign up with all of that. But it's going to ask you for your business information. It's going to ask you for address. It basically just wants to confirm like, okay, this is a real person doing real business. They're not here doing scams. And so you're going to want to fill out all of that information. Make sure that you connect that to, to your Instagram profile and to your Facebook artist page, which is like your Facebook business page, right? And so once you get those integrated, you're also going to want to make an, uh, an ad account, which is going to be like where you can run your ads. And so you need to set that up. Then creating your pixel, um, I could go into some detail about this, but a lot of it is going to be like walking you through there as you're on the platform, you know, like as you get to each level, it's going to tell you the exact information you need or how to link these. And it's gotten better at doing that.

I was going to say, it's pretty easy to figure it out, isn't it? It is.

It's sometimes it's still a pain, you know, and, but it's, it's easier than it used to be, I think. Um, although like there's a lot of like, you know, verifications and things like that that have to be done, but ultimately I do think it's easier. Basically, you're going to want to put in all of that information and then put in your payment method. And then here's where I would say is like, as you start your campaigns, keep an eye on it because Facebook, like Meta Ad Spend hits a lot of different banks and the banks report it as fraud. So then you might go 4 days after starting your ad account and if you haven't checked on it, like on the ads that you're running, they may have shut off because Facebook tried to charge your card. Your card was like, hey, this is fraud, cut it off. So keep an eye on that and definitely like let your bank know immediately if you see that, like, hey, like this is, you know, this is a valid purchase. I would also say go in and change your— so there's— I forget the term for it, but you'll see it under payment information and it's basically like putting the number that they charge your card at. So like whether that— like at first it starts off with like charge my card at like every $3 spent or something like that and then you just get a bunch of different charges. I would say like up that, although I do believe Meta goes through like a testing period making sure that the money's there at first and so it does charge but then it will, it will build up to what you've suggest it as like, hey, charge my card at every $50 or something. That way you don't have a bunch of $3 charges. But, um, once you get into facebook.business, there— it can be very overwhelming, but just follow the strategies to set up. And then, um, make sure you set up your pixel properly, and it'll, it'll show you the way to like set up your pixel and then to integrate that onto whatever landing page, um, that you want it on. And it shows you how to test that so that you can make sure that it is connected.

I'm sorry, what website is that for?

Uh, uh, business.facebook.com.

Got it.

I think— let me make sure. I'm pretty sure that's it. Yeah, business.facebook.com.

Thank you. Just making sure.

Yep. And so from there, you know, just sign in with your normal Facebook stuff. And/or Instagram stuff, login information, and then connect your— make sure your Instagram and Facebook accounts get connected as well as your pixel and your ad account, I believe is what it's called. Sorry, some of the terminology, like, that's okay, kind of slips my mind until I'm on there and actually doing it.

So does it— does the algorithm kick in right away? Or so some time for it to get used to you.

Yeah, so I think it kind of depends on the history of the account too, and like how much data has your— have your pages like generated on who likes your stuff and how big is your following and things like that. But what I would say is you want to definitely let your ads run for like I would say like a couple days, 3 days sometimes, before you're really like, is this working or is it not? Should I alter it? Because it takes a while to optimize. Um, and then also every time that you like increase a budget— so let's say you're running them at— let's say you're running conversion campaigns at $10 a day, and after 3 or 4 days you see like, okay, it's kind of got it in this good price range, it's at about say 37 cents. So I want to, I want to run that up. Let me put $20 a day on it. You want to gradually increase your cost per day.

Got it. So don't go right to $100 a day.

So don't go right to $100 because the issue is like, um, it's a, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? How the ads work. Uh, I'm— anyway, basically you're, you're competing for a certain level of audience. So if you're paying for $10 a day, you're competing for that basically like what Meta populates as like a $10 a day audience. And so when you're auctioning— that's the word I'm looking for— when you're auctioning for that audience, that's how it's optimizing your ad. Whereas if you turn it up to $100 a day, now you're auctioning out for a whole, like, almost a different audience. And Meta is like, okay, well, who's this $100 a day audience? Now they're auctioning off for that. So you don't want to start off at $10 a day and then just move right up to $100. You want to increase it. I believe the rate is like 20% for every 24 hours. So like, you know, if you're starting at $10, increase it to $12, let 24 hours pass, then you can increase that. What's 20% of $12? Like $2.30. Oh yeah, so yeah, so then you up it to like $14.60 a day, and then, you know, from so on you build it up.

Got it. Yep, I love that. Um, one of the theories that I have, and I don't know if it's right or wrong, but it's right for our clients is we focus just on the US. We don't really run ads overseas. I know sometimes you'll run ads in the English-speaking countries overseas depending on the client that we're working with, but for, for me, I don't do this for vanity metrics. I don't care about your numbers. I care about your engagement, right? And I care about, are these people going to come to a show and buy tickets? Are they going to buy merch? I'm trying to build real fan bases for our clients, so I'm not advertising in Brazil and India and, you know, Africa, like wherever, you know.

Right.

I just, I just wanted to throw that in, but I know everybody has a different theory on that. I know plenty of my peers that, that do, you know, the entire world, like Run of World. They don't care where somebody discovers their artist, they care that the artist gets discovered. And I I won't share that philosophy because I want— the streaming isn't enough money to focus just on that, right?

Right.

And from the Philippines is not coming to your show, and you can't go to the Philippines to really market and promote and back up more than just ads. So even if your song takes off, what are you gonna do, right?

100%. And I think like a lot of people in a way try to like run up their numbers to like almost sneak something past— like if they're trying to get a label deal, it's like, yo, this is how much I'm streaming. It's like, okay, but you know, 50% of that is in Bangladesh. Exactly.

Or Manila. And, and the labels are on to that. There's this— exactly, this thing called Chartmetric. There's Soundcharts. There's so many different, um, there's so many different ways to find out where you're popping. Like, you and I have a friend in common, and she's doing really well in Nigeria, and nobody thinks her numbers are real because she's really streaming in Nigeria. And it's so frustrating because it's real. Like, I know her. I know she's not running the number. First of all, she can't afford to run the numbers up. She doesn't, right? But second of all, that's not her MO. She wouldn't know to do that, right? And everybody's looking at her like, oh, your numbers aren't real because you're popping in Nigeria. Well, yeah, she makes Afrobeats music, so of course, right?

So I think you and I very much fall under the same beliefs with that, where I'm like, I care more about the quality of fan that I'm creating than I do like the quantity. And obviously like everybody wants to have a large audience and everything, but it's like, like you said, who can show up to shows? Who can purchase?

Like the world— at some point you're leaving digital and going into the real world.

Exactly, exactly. And like even with like making direct sales offers, let's just say the other English-speaking countries, it's a lot to ship some shit over to the UK. Yes, like, you know, even like way more, right? So it's like, I do, I do sometimes like advertise like streaming campaigns into, um, I think what Indiepreneur has labeled the green light countries, and that's like Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand, um, it's 5 English, Ireland.

Yeah, maybe English-speaking country.

Yeah. And it's like, yeah, I think that's okay when we're talking about streaming. Because it's like, okay, that's cool that— that— and, and if you're— it's kind of like the balance of like running up your numbers but making sure they're authentic and that there's actual like real people on the other side of that.

Yeah.

But then like you, like you're saying, it's like, okay, ideally I'm gonna build a big audience in the States because that's where I live and I want to be able to get out. I want to be able to get out and touch, touch the people. Uh, no diddy. And, um, But, um, the, uh, that's another thing that just kind of led me to a segue is like, I don't think a lot of people realize how, especially if they're living in cities that aren't like LA, Atlanta, New York, like Writers Block running ads in Columbia, South Carolina, we're able to reach so many people for such a little bit of money. So it's like, I don't want people to neglect advertising very locally, you know? Like, that's not— it's not always the move when you're trying to build streaming numbers or something, but when you're trying to build a real presence somewhere and be able to pop up in a city and do a show and get numbers to come out and yada yada, like, don't neglect hitting these, uh, I don't know what's a good word for the cities. I don't necessarily want to call them B cities, but they're not— they are—

they're B markets.

They're— yeah, B market.

Yeah, they're, they're sub-markets. It's, it's just the advertising term for them. Yeah, that they're bad markets. But you know that when that's my focus, I only market to like 10 states, right? I mean, like, there are times with clients where we don't go beyond the Southeast because I want to target all of their budget into a smaller area and make sure that we're saturating that, and then it's going to spread naturally, right?

Right. And then like so much happens from that to where like, okay, if they can go out to 5 different states and do shows and we're documenting the footage of them going to 5 different states and talking to people in real life doing the shows, it's like it all starts to feed itself.

It does. I learned, I learned that with Machine Gun Kelly because we marketed to such a targeted area for— this is before he was signed— to such a targeted area that when the labels came in and wanted to sign him, they're like, okay, Where is he doing shows? Where is his buzz? Is it more than just Ohio? Oh shit, he's performing in Chicago, he's going to, to, uh, St. Louis, he's going to New York, he's going to Pittsburgh. Like, it was such a, a larger area than just where he's from in Ohio. And that, that matters, you know, it matters.

It definitely does.

It matters if your goal is to get a deal, although I don't know why anybody's goal would be to get a deal in 2025. So could you talk about the Boost button, that little blue button in Instagram? Yeah, 30% and gives it to Apple.

Yeah, so if you're doing it from your phone, it's certainly not the move because Apple's taking 30% of your budget right there. Um, I've heard of people having success with it like on their laptop, and I think that since the last time I've used Boost, which was years ago, um, I think it has like upped its game a little bit when you do it from the laptop. However, like I way rather run that shit from Meta Business, be able to see a lot more data points on it, be able to get more strategic about it. Um, if, you know, if you're just like, hey, I got some extra money, I don't want to learn all this, I just kind of want to gamble and see if it's going to work, um, go for it, go for it. Yeah, like, if that's really what your goal is. But if you want to learn, if you want to ultimately get more strategic about this and be able to do more with your dollars, like, take the time to learn a little bit more, or find someone who, who knows it and is willing to work with you.

Yeah, you know, it's not that expensive to hire somebody to run digital ads. Like, there are people out here that will take 20% of your budget to run ads, and at the end of the day, like, when you're an artist, you already have 20 jobs.

Yeah.

You don't need 21, right? So I, I would suggest to learn it just so that you know whether somebody's doing their job or not.

Yep.

Yeah. But you can— it is one of the cheaper areas in terms of cost for you to outsource.

Yeah. And it's really impactful to have a good ad strategy, you know? Like, yeah, I'd say other than like organic content and like being able to double down on creating good short-form content, it's like probably the next step to building your career would be ads.

Absolutely.

And I know like there's plenty of people— like I know like Nick D, for instance, like doesn't run any ads. Um, and so like there's always going to be people that do it without doing certain things. Um, and he's killing— he's killing it right now. I mean, he's— he's doing his thing. But I definitely think that as a whole ecosystem, like when you can create great organic content and utilize an ad budget for it or utilize like a good ad strategy with that, like you're gonna just start to see you move up levels quickly.

Agreed. I think LaRussell is the opposite of that. When I talked to him a couple months ago, um, it might even be 6 months now since I had this conversation, but I asked him, hey, what are you spending in a month on, on ads? And he said $50 grand a month. So imagine what he's making in order to be able to spend $50 grand a month. But yeah, that's the opposite. Philosophy where I'm gonna invest back into myself and ads are working for me because I've got great content, so I'm gonna kind of go all in. Could you, could you explain what A/B testing is?

Yeah, so A/B testing is like where you take— let's say you have the same video, right, and you want to change the copy, um, like you want to test various copies. You can A/B test that and see what copy is the best. Generally speaking, you can do like A/B tests where you're changing multiple variations of everything that you're testing, but you're going to get your best results where, like, if you can have a controlled variable. So, like, if you want to test different copy, keep the video the same. If you want to test different videos, keep the copy the same. And then you can start to make analytical decisions on, okay, this video perform— this type of video perform best now, and I use the same copy across the board. Now if I want to optimize even more, if I'm not getting the results where I want to get them, now let's test the copy. We know what video works the best. Now let's test the copy. Okay, this copy works best. Now we know this is the best, uh, pair to run, to run.

I love that. Um, I, I gave you, um, props recently when I was speaking live because one of the things that I learned from you was not just to change not just to change the, the, the, the creative or the copy, but you also taught me to try different parts of the song. Like, try the first verse, try the hook, try part of the second verse, try, you know, a hook with the verse. Like, you, you had me testing different portions of each song too.

Yeah, definitely.

I hadn't really thought to do that.

Definitely. I think, I think, like, the way people are discovering music right now is from short-form clips usually.

Correct.

Um, and so like in seconds, it could be, it might be like what gets people to click on the song might be the bridge of the song, you know, like it may be. And like, I can't tell you how many times I've heard a clip of something and I've gone to listen to it and I'm like, I don't really like this song.

Like, right, like the clip that I heard was cool, but like the rest of the song wasn't there. Oh, fire. Yeah.

So But I mean, they turned me to a streamer off of some organic content. And like, you know, I'm sure there's other people that did love the song, that the rest of the song. But it all goes to say is like, test out different clips of what you're— of the music you're making. Like, um, make a few, make a few full videos, like a full-length video from where your verse comes, or where your first vocals come in to where your first vocals go out, right? And make maybe 2 or 3 of those like full length, then cut those into different sections of the song and post those throughout, you know, a couple weeks or whatever, and yeah, see what reacts. And then like if you notice that it's this section, or let's say you notice it's the shot that I do outside, like generally the shots that I did outside are performing better Okay, now let me go do a few different shots outside of all the sections, and then let's figure out what section of the song does better. Or if you're just naturally seeing, like, off of the videos you posted, this section of the song is doing better. Once you know the section of the song, then you can make 100 videos for that section because you know, you know what it is, that section is getting attention.

Yes. And I'd also like to remind people here that building your career and, and having people check out your music is based on connection. So if you— like, you just performing a song is not enough. You need to really engage them, maybe talk about why you made the song or how it made you feel or who inspired you or what you were going through when you made this song. Oh, my grandmother just died, so I made this song. It's the connection that you're, you're going for. So yeah, Showing off your talent is not enough in 2025. It's just—

unless it's just un— like, un— like, unless you're just God level with what you're doing, it's not.

I, I know guys that are God level and they're not getting the reaction. And, and that's no disrespect to any of my rap friends, but I know a lot of people that are, that are, are killing it on the lyrics and they've grown really fast, but now they're leveling off and I'm watching their numbers stay the same. And it's like, okay dude, you got to switch it up now, right?

And a lot of it is like niche detail. Failed. If you can bring other aspects of you into the, the video with your song, you're going to connect with other people that are part of like that same interest group, and now they're going to naturally be more inclined to listen to your music. That's not to say like all of those people in that interest group are going to like your music, but the people who like that style are going to be way more inclined to like your music if they like what you're interested in.

Yeah, we do that with our clients, as you know, like We have a client that's really into sports and we have a client who loves to cook. So she has a YouTube show where she's doing cooking shorts and the guy has a sports channel, if you will, that he's trying to build, a sports show that he's trying to build, and his music is playing in the background while she's cooking. Her music is playing in the background. So she's bringing people in who love food and love to cook who might be like, oh, what's this song? Let me— I didn't realize she was an artist. Let me check her out. It's just another angle to come at to—

yeah, people in your niche, definitely. And like, have fun, you know?

That—

I fell into the trap of like just making content because I felt like I needed to make 100 pieces for this, and making the content and being like—

and it shows—

this isn't it. It does. And then like, yeah, and then I'll make content of me just having fun, and it's not that—

I love it—

of a video sometimes, but like, you know what I mean? Like, it's not fun videos or whatever, but it— they perform better.

Yes, because people want to be entertained and people want to be happy. I love when you and Zoe are just acting a fool, like you're just being crazy and zany together, because it's like, oh, this is what relationships should be. And I'll watch it a little bit longer because I don't normally get to— because we work together, so I don't normally get to see zany Blaine. I get to work Blaine, you know. So I'll stay a little bit longer and be like, oh, he's having fun, this is cool. It's engaging and it draws me in, and I'm sure it does with other people as well.

I appreciate that. And yeah, I mean, that— it's just a testament of like, be you in the content, or like, have fun. Don't take yourself too serious. Like, I think a lot of people go wrong with taking themselves too serious and think they need to be perceived as like a superstar, and it's like, nobody Nobody relates to a superstar, you know, like people relate to people that are experiencing everyday things. And if you can find a funny way about like, people really love humor on social media. If you think about like how to get things shared, like 90% of what I share is either comedy or information that I think will lead to that are relevant to my friends or my loved ones that I think can enhance their life.

I love that.

And so like, if you can make your content have some of those aspects in it, it's way more likely to be shared.

I love that. And sharing is so important. Um, there are two things that I want to talk about here, and then I'm going to go into— and thanks for doing this. I really— you're being really generous with your time, and I so appreciate this. Um, test everything. So when you're even just on your content, not just on your ads, but go in and look and see how long people are staying on— yes, social media posts, and how many shares are they getting, how much engagement. The, the numbers— I'd rather you have 30% engagement or 10% engagement than 100,000 people that saw it. Like, the views don't matter, the engagement.

Yeah, 100%, the quality. Like, there's so many accounts I go to and like, you know, they have thousands of followers, and I look and they have like the same engagement rate as I do, and I'm Yes, me.

I have 120,000 and your engagement is better than mine.

I, I don't know about that. You, you have some videos that go crazy and that people are super engaged with. Yeah, but, but there's plenty of accounts I do see.

Lesson test everything, because I don't— you do, you test it for me. I should know this, but my engagement's not great. But I do know how to make it great. I'm just not willing to do what I'm supposed to do in order for my shit to get to the next level. I'm just not sensational, girl. I'm trying.

Yeah, I'm trying. Yeah, but also, like, you have really— like, the people who are engaged with what you're doing are very engaged with what you're doing, and they're very interested to see what's happening in Wendy's world, and you know what I mean? And like, I know why that is.

You want me to tell you why that is?

Because why is that?

It's, it's a marketing thing because I'm very on brand and I stand for something, and I'm very out loud about what I stand for. I stand for empowerment, I stand for independence, I stand for monetize, fuck, uh, vanity shit. Like, right, everybody that follows me that's hardcore, they believe in your belief system, they believe, they agree with me. You know, sort of like MAGA, but in a good way, right?

Right.

Like, that's why, that's why the people that love me love me and the people that hate me hate me.

Yeah. And that's like, that's a huge thing too, is like artists starting out are like afraid for people to hate them. And it's like, oh my God. And I've been there. Like, I get hate comments and I'm like, oh, why don't you know, especially like earlier in my career, like, why don't they like me? And now I'm like, I laugh at it and I'm like, I'm— you like, you want to be polarizing in a way.

Yes.

Like, I'm not saying go out and be something you're not to be polarizing.

No, you have to have balls and you have to put them up. And, and I love that you said this, like, this is so important. Like, who cares what people think? And if you're somebody that's wrapped up in that, and, and I am and I'm not, it really depends on on who it is. Like, I, I'm fortunate because I just don't give a fuck what people think, you know, because I know that I'm doing what's right, what's right for me and my people, right? So there's a book, um, by Mel Robbins called Let Them. And if you're really worried about what people think about you, I suggest you read that book because that book is going to help you see why what somebody thinks about you doesn't matter, because you're never going to be able to please everybody, first of all. And then second of all, in our business of growing stars, the enemy of love, or the opposite of love, is not hate, it's apathy. I'd rather somebody love you or hate you than not care. If somebody's not having an opinion on you and just moving on To me, that's worse. Yeah, that's the enemy of love.

Yeah, somebody's not giving a fuck. 100%. I've got to use the restroom so bad, so I'll cut this right and I'll be right back.

You know how to edit.

Oh, oh.

Good, I beat you back. I got ice. Yay! Gave me a chance to go get ice, so thank you. That's a beautiful thing. Uh, I wanted to give you a compliment, and now I forget what I was going to say, but it'll come to me because it was important. Oh, I remember what it was. Okay. Um, so I would love to ask you about, uh, running ads for YouTube, which is Google Ads. And I would love to ask you about running ads on TikTok because we really just talked about Meta. And by the way, I, I'm about to start running ads on Reddit and it went into our roomie today. So you can go in and see what homegirl pitched about Reddit running ads.

Yeah, that'd be interesting. Yeah, I feel like that's That's definitely a way to like get to niche down, you know. Reddit's so niche, like, yes, yeah, if you know what your target audience is and like what the niches are, that's really interesting.

Asian shit that I'm about to start doing, like, that's my world.

Definitely. Yeah, so that's cool. Yeah, I think so.

Um, YouTube, TikTok, and, uh, YouTube and TikTok.

Cool. So I'll start off with YouTube because, uh, I don't know a lot about it.

Okay, good.

Yeah, and I'm willing to say that. So I haven't really dove into it. Um, been fortunate that, um, some of the people we work with, like Tony, um, are brilliant when it comes to YouTube marketing. And so, um, normally I just, uh, pass it along, revert to his genius. And so, um, I think that it's probably super useful as an artist. I personally just haven't utilized it yet. My main focus was really on learning Meta ads for a while, and I feel like that's kind of consumed a lot of my, um, time to learn, you know. Um, and so I don't know too much about it, and I'd love to learn more. Um, and I'd love to like actively— I mean, just get active with it because I've seen great results. Um, and YouTube is like the biggest search engine, right? So, and I'm sure it helps with, um, SEO. Um, I'm sure, you know, I'm sure it helps with so much. So, and especially like if you're an artist that still does music videos, like, or you do like long-form vlog content and stuff like that, I'm sure it's very helpful. Uh, and I know— I'm not just sure, I know it's very helpful. I just, I just haven't dove into it yet. So there's a I'm sorry. No, go ahead.

There's a great use— great use source— there's a great resource called YouTube University, and it's really the fucking bomb. Um, I went through their program in 2017 when I started posting all those free educational videos on YouTube, not so that I could advertise, because I never advertised them, but I wanted to learn, like, what more can I do not just through advertising, but what more can I do through YouTube to help reach people? And it's free, anybody can take it. It's a little time-consuming, it wasn't fast, but it was really, really helpful. So if you have the time, you might want to check that out. Not just you, but everybody, everybody.

Yeah, here.

And then for, um, for TikTok, we really outsource those as well. But my understanding, and I learned this from Brandman Sean, I don't know if if it's still accurate, and maybe you can weigh in. And if not, then I suggest people go check out Sean's stuff because he's very, um, he, he's very open and transparent about TikTok. But he was telling me, like, don't, don't just hit TikTok on a Monday and start running ads on a Tuesday. He's like, go into TikTok, really get to know it, really, really get to use the platform, get your numbers up pretty high and then start running ads on whatever is, is, um, reacting sort of the way we do with Facebook and Instagram, right? Do you find that to be true as well? Yeah.

Yes, I do. I'm still like pretty green with it, but from my experience, it's like you definitely want the content to show, like you want, you want that organic engagement before you really start pumping money into it. It. Um, because like TikTok is probably the best like, like interest-based algorithm, you know. You're not going to get a lot of loyal people necessarily on— you could, but not necessarily on TikTok because it's all like every video is just interest-based. It's not about who you follow really, right? Um, so I would say like when running ads, you want to see videos react before you start putting money into it. Um, I'm not so versed in it as far as like running conversion ads or what the possibilities are with that. Um, I know— well, I, I know I've run a couple and like I did not get good results at all.

Yeah.

Um, for me to say it's not worth it, I can't— I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go as far to say that because I've only run probably 3 conversion campaigns on TikTok. However, those were for different, um, artists and none of them converted You know, it's funny.

Um, one of the topics this year at Music Biz, which was right here in Atlanta, as you know, um, they were talking about how TikTok used to directly affect Apple streams and Spotify streams, more Apple than Spotify. Don't know why, but it's not converting anymore. It's still converting, but not like it used to. Like, and I don't know what the conversion rates were compared to now., but it's drastically different. Like the marketing departments for major labels and, and even the indie folks that were there talking on panels, everybody had that same consensus that it's still okay, but it's not like it used to be. Like it doesn't, it used to be a guaranteed conversion.

My, my thoughts with that would be, and this could, this is just a shot in the dark, but cuz I, I feel like I've seen this with, uh, like, uh, Meta ads. Is TikTok used to be a platform that people went to discover music on.

Mm.

But then every musician and their mom got on there posting performance videos after performance video after performance video to where it's like, uh, and if it's not really interesting, I'm not going to that, and I'm certainly not going to click the link. And I find a similar thing right now with conversion ads where it's like, uh, I don't know about you, but I know for me, if I'm going through stories, like if I'm just on Instagram, going to friends' stories and stuff. Between like me going through 10 different friends' stories, I probably get 4 advertisements of someone singing, lip syncing to their music, and it's for a streaming conversion. And so from just my personal experience, I do think that prices are getting higher or the same kind of videos aren't working for conversion campaigns because so many people are doing them. Now.

Interesting.

And so that kind of makes me think like maybe that's what's happening with TikTok is because so many people went on there thinking like I can just play my music and it will convert, like now less people are actually converting from that. So that's kind of my thought on that, but could be completely wrong.

I love that. Um, if you, if you can give me like 10 more minutes.

Yeah, however much time you need.

I'm gonna make a left turn and I want to talk about balance in life, if you don't mind, because one of the things that nobody ever did when I was coming up— and I came up in severe hustle culture, and you see how I am, you know, you know how it came up— um, we never talked about balance or mental health or, you know, how to have a, a, a wife and a job. How to— because for me it was just 24/7 work, work, work, work, work, even Even the, the men that I dated were in the music industry working with me. I never dated in the music industry, but every guy that I dated I brought into the music industry. I don't know why, it just happened like that. But all that to say, um, you're one of the most well-balanced people I know. And, and my trainer today, you know, when you don't have kids, people don't know who to ask you about. And I'm not in a relationship, I don't have kids, so the people in my immediate circle don't know who to ask me like, how's so-and-so? So my trainer's like, how's Blaine? And I'm like— she asked me this today, and I looked at him like, you know Blaine? And she's like, well yeah, Blaine works for you. And I'm like, yeah, I know who Blaine is, but you know him by name? Like, I must talk about you. So I thought that was pretty cool. And I'm like, yeah, he's the most well-adjusted person that I know. You have really been able to balance work, being an artist and building your own career, and you just got married and you have a personal life and you've got a grandma mother that you take care of, and you're about to move, and, and maybe you don't feel like, like you're in control of all of it, but as an outsider looking in, you've got this. Like, how do you do it? It's really fucking impressive.

Well, I really appreciate that because like I think there's oftentimes I don't feel like I have it balanced and I'm always like contemplating it.

Wow.

Um, I think for me There's a few things that go into it. Is like, in my early 20s, I had a very traumatic, like, few years, and I had to assume a lot of responsibility.

Um, you're in your late 20s now?

Yep.

Okay.

Yep. So like 20, 21, 22, um, I had like 6 deaths really close to me, and then like, um, like just a lot of responsibilities that fell into my lap at an early age. Um, and I think like being thrown in the fire like that, I had to figure out how to balance a lot of things. Um, so I think that really helped me as I've grown to not take things so serious sometimes and to like just kind of like, it is what it is and I'm gonna handle it the best I can, and that's kind of all I can do. Um, another thing is I've had, um, some pretty like life-impacting illnesses. And so when I start to get really out of balance, I physically feel really bad. Like, my sinus— like, I don't— I won't be able to breathe. I won't— I'll have sinus headaches constantly. My allergies will be going crazy. My body will be tight. And so, like, a lot of times my body forces me to regulate and take time for myself, because if I don't, um, like, if I— if I wake up and I don't take care of my body first, the rest of my day I'm going to be cloudy thinking, I'm going to be stiff, I'm gonna just have a miserable day. So it kind of like forces me to take care of those things. Um, and then I think it's like a matter of, um, like a, like an existential belief that I have of just like, one day I'm gonna die and I want to be of service to as many people in my life as I can be. Uh, something my grandfather told me that really stuck with me is like, people don't remember how much money you had or what you had, but they remember how you made them feel.

Yes.

And so that sticks out to me a lot. And I think it— how that plays into balance is like, dang, I had, I had a good poetic thing coming and now I kind of have lost it. But how that, how that comes into balance is like I can work my ass off at business stuff, but I know when I'm done with this today, my wife deserves to feel good, and I deserve to— like, like, I deserve to give— or she deserves for me to give her my best energy. Not to say every day I do. Like, you know, we had— it's a relationship and you grow and you, and you, and you figure out what's going wrong. But anyway, I find a way to like That's real. Try to give the people in my life and the goals in my life the best version of me, because I know one day I'm not going to be able to, right? Um, I think what I've been struggling with recently is sleep, and that has kind of thrown everything out of balance. So, um, I would just— I'd say to people is like, prioritize your sleep. Even if you're not getting 8 hours a night, is like, figure out a way to get like 6 really solid hours of sleep, like prioritize that because it's gonna impact your efficacy of everything you do throughout the day.

Yes.

And so I think to me, I think balance comes from sleep, getting some sort of movement, whether that's just stretching or some sort of exercise, something to get in your body and just kind of move your body. Um, I definitely believe like what you eat comes into play as well, but then just like getting to your purpose, like what, what are you here to do? You know, this, this life is short. If you can get down to your why and your purposes, it'll allow you to be more balanced with the things you do because you're not going to go do some— you're not going to go waste your time with things that don't align with that, don't matter. Um, and not to say, like, you know, for me, like, music feels like a major part of my purpose, but the bigger part of my purpose is, like, I care about how people feel and I care about how people's experiences. So just because everything doesn't tie into music doesn't mean that it's a waste of time for me. But I'm also going to be able to utilize those moments and write about them and use them within music. So it kind of feeds into itself whenever you figure out what matters to you and why it matters.

I love that. I love that. Are you still vegan?

No, I haven't been for about a year now.

Oh wow.

I was vegan for like 7 years, 8 years. Really followed Dr. Sebi heavy— heavily for a while.

I remember.

And his— in his, uh, teachings. And then, um, just kind of got to this phase in my life where, um I don't know, it's just a new phase. And, and, and I think sometimes when we go into new trends, like for ourselves, not just saying like outer trends, but like new tendencies for ourselves and trends for ourselves, our identity can get too attached to those things. And it's good to like kind of like take a step back and be like, okay, what, you know, reflect on that. And like, am I subscribed to this just because of, um, past beliefs or like connotations towards things And I, I was going through a major, um, detox after being exposed to like mold and stuff. And the doctor I was working with, I really trusted her opinion on things, and she's very holistic as well. And she was just like, you, you know, I really think as you're doing this, um, you need a lot more fats in your diet and you need more protein. And she was suggesting goat milk, wasn't it? Yeah, so I started off with goat milk to like repair— yep, to repair my gut biome. And then Did that work? I think it did, yeah. Like, that was— that— I wish I could get raw— I was drinking raw goat's milk, which is like going from being vegan and not consuming any animal products to like raw goat milk was like a little— it was like, you know, it took some getting used to, but I've— I felt the difference in my body. And so like, I think that's another thing too, and I kind of got at that with like some of you know, the, uh, immune issues I've had in my life is like I listen to my body a lot. Um, and I think, I think that brings me balance because I listen to those emotions too. Or if I'm in a room and something's just unsettled in my body, I'm like, maybe I don't need to be in the room, or maybe I, you know, maybe I don't need to be around these people this consistently, or whatever it is. And I listen to those things. So that's, that's kind of how I transitioned it, um, with my diet too.

You look, um, healthier than I've ever seen you lately. That's why I asked you if you were vegan. I really thought you're gonna say, yeah, remember I got off the vegan? Well, I'm back on it. So whatever you're doing, it's working because you—

I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Feed in the grass and sunshine. That's what I've been focusing on lately.

Yeah, I love that. And then the, the last thing I want to say is regarding sleep, because you had said to me yesterday that you weren't sleeping well. And you know, I've got a toolbox now. I've been on a mission to like be the best me that I can be for the past 2 years. I have a toolbox for anything you have going wrong. I can go down whatever that, that vertical is. So, um, I'm just going to share with you and everybody because I know you already do this. Um, avoid sugar. I, I know you already do, so that's not an issue. Avoid caffeine. Don't have caffeine. And I say that as somebody drinking, you know, unsweet tea up until 2 AM when I fall asleep. But if you can stop— not just you, I'm talking to everybody— if you can stop drinking caffeine at like 6 o'clock at night or 5 o'clock at night, it, it, it makes it a little easier to fall asleep. No screens, no blue light screens right before you go to bed so that you can wind down. And then meditate. I know you do normally, so if you're off of that, get back on it. And then my, my business coach, you know, I, I've started to procrastinate lately a lot, and it was a problem that I had like a year ago. And she put me on this morning routine where I get up and I meditate. It's within the first 30 minutes of being awake. And I had like a— I read a little bit of Eckhart Tolle's book, The Power of Now. Yeah, The Power of Now, which is all like little short bits of information. So I could easily read that for like 20 minutes, and then I'd meditate for 10 minutes and put together a gratitude list. I'd read my goals for the day, which I did the night before. And I had a routine. And I noticed, um, with her help— she kind of hit me in the head with it— when I get off that morning routine, it just fucks me up. It's when I'm— when I over-procrastinate, I'll be up later because my stress stress is higher. I'm sleeping less, you know, like I'm sleeping— normally I'll sleep 7 hours a night, I'll sleep 5, you know, and be like, what's wrong with me? What's wrong? So if you have a morning routine and you're off of it, get back on it, get back on it, yeah, get back on it, because that could be fucking with your sleep. And it could be something as simple as where you live. It's just the, the, the either the altitude or whatever's in the air. There might be mold where you're living. That could be anything that's fucking up your breathing, which is impacting your sleep in a negative way.

Yeah, I appreciate that and the reminders. Yeah, because I definitely need to get back on my morning routine and like meditation and stuff.

Yep, back on it.

I thought about this, um, for a way to stay balanced, uh, that I want to share. So I remember like I used to, and sometimes I still do this, um, but I used to go in and I'd come up with like the main categories of my life that I cared about, right? Spirituality, music, health.

Please say money. Please say money.

Well, business. I feel like business was in there, but I don't—

because you can't do any of that other shit without money.

Yeah.

And I think on that, so let me give it to you. Yeah.

So business, money, we'll add money in there. And then, like, you know, whatever else I deeply cared about. And I'd come up with this full list of every— so like under spirituality would be 10 things that I should start practicing that I know would make my life better. Then music, 10 things. And all these things would be 10 things. And then I kind of overwhelm myself and be like, it's too many. Yeah, like I'd start off for like the first 4 days doing all of them and then— yeah, and then I'd fail. And then, and then I'd feel really like— I feel a lot of shame about not being able to uphold that. So what I would say It was too much. If I could talk to my, uh, like 22-year-old self, it's like, make a list. If you need to get it all out, make the list of what you think all would be good and take the top thing from, from those 5 sections or 6 sections and just start to practice that. And if, if it's meditation is one of them, you don't have to meditate for an hour every day. Like, meditate for 10 minutes. If, um, making money Making more money is one of them. You don't have to make $1,000 extra a day, like figure out how to make $20 extra a day, you know, and just kind of like taking those one thing that can— yes, and don't like, don't let it— don't let all those other things overconsume you. If you focus on those one things, one thing, and you'll probably start to integrate the other stuff.

So yes, I do it by threes. Um, I'm a big fan of Atomic Habits Habits. Uh, James Clear, I think, is who wrote that. I might be wrong on the name because, you know, I fuck up names all the time. Um, but Atomic Habits talks about that, like when you're starting a new habit, like if you want to drink more water, attach it to something you already do every day. Like if you work out, make sure you drink a liter of water as you're working out or after you work out. Like, yeah, the new habit to something you already have, have conquered.

I love that. That's actually how I got back into exercising. Yeah, I was like, I was stepping outside to smoke a joint every night, and then I was like, you know what, I can lift some weights while I smoke a joint. And so like, I started associating like smoking with working out, and like, maybe one's not—

I would never guess that. Yeah, right.

And so like, they aren't even like, uh, like, that's really associated together, but because I started doing that, I got consistent with and it's beautiful. Yeah, so yeah, outstanding.

Is there anything that I haven't asked you that I should have? Oh, um, especially about ads.

Um, I'm sure, I'm sure there's some more information I could give, but I don't know.

Okay, can I just plug Gary Vee's book for the 8,000th time? Day Trading Attention is one of the best books I've read on how to boost your social media, and he talks about advertising in there. It's really, really helpful. But I'm sorry, I was asking you if I like—

No, yeah, that's a great, that's a great book. Um, I don't know if there's any questions that I would say, um, but I Maybe I have like some closing thoughts, or maybe not closing if you want to continue the conversation.

But no, I was getting ready to close it out, so I think—

yeah, I think, um, for artists and anyone on an artist team, or I guess anything you're doing, the only shortcut is consistency. Um, if you keep doing it, you're going to get better at it. You're going to find people that support you. You're going to learn how to support the people that support you and they'll support you more. So just because like you don't have the biggest audience yet does not give you an excuse to not be consistent. That's going to be where you figure out what works for you and you're going to find a lot of things that don't work for you. But if you don't try, you're not going to know. Yeah. And just like focus on quality of fan over anything else. Like, let them be a part of your process. Let them see who you are. Let them get connected with you, because those people will buy your albums every time you release, or they'll buy, you know, they'll purchase your single off iTunes, or they'll buy a t-shirt or whatever you— if you nurture people and you do your best so that they feel valued they're going to exchange a value with you, and typically that's going to be financial. Um, so figure out how you can bring value to people without just looking at what they can bring back to you, and it's always going to take care of you. And it might not be in the ways that you expect or, or that you anticipate. I don't even think you should expect it to take care of you, but it's going— like, if you provide value for the world around you, whatever it is you're doing, that value is going to be returned to you in some way, and probably times 10.

It's called karma, and it's real. I love that. And you also started to say something in there that I love, so I'm gonna have to— I'm gonna have to say it. And feel free to roll your eyes because you're probably tired of this: do more of what works and less of what doesn't.

Yep.

It's really that simple.

Yep, yep. And, and get real about like what— like, I think for me, so long, um, I didn't want to admit that a desire of mine was to be seen and recognized for my talents. I, for some reason, I didn't want to accept that. And then I accepted it, and I was like, yeah, I was like, oh no, I do, I do want to be recognized for my talents, and I do want to entertain, and And for me, it was very like, I quit running from myself about things. So it's like, get down to like, what drives you, even if it's things that you may feel insecure about. And like, be real with yourself about what drives you and figure out ways to like healthily implement that.

I love that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna apply that to my life right now. Because it's, it's one of the things that I still struggle with. I want to help people and it grows my fame, and I don't want to be famous, so I fight it. And really, the only way to fight it would be to stop helping people, and I'm not willing to do that. So I'm gonna have to suck it up, and I'm gonna have to accept the fame, which is kind of how I've run my whole career. But I dislike it, and it's very hard for me, and I'm just gonna have to embrace it and get over it.

That people need help.

Dang it.

Yeah, definitely.

Thank you.

Definitely. Thank you for having me on here, and, um, I've enjoyed this conversation.

So much value. So, so, so much value.

I appreciate that. I appreciate that. I, um, yeah, I mean, I just, I care about what I do and I care about my interactions with people, so same. Glad I can bring value.

Yeah, it drives me. Thank you. And thank you for everybody that you've helped that I've asked you to help, like, on my behalf. I really appreciate that for sure, because I know they're not all— they're not all as grateful as they should be, but I am.

Well, yeah, I don't think it's always about— like, again, like, I can't expect every— like, if I'm— if I'm in it for the practice and the— and the goal of, like, providing value I, I'm not in it for someone to like thank me, praise me for it, you know what I mean? Like, and so like, yeah, it's just, it just comes with the game. Like, and, and sometimes it's awesome and people are like, are super thankful and we end up building a friendship that means a lot to me. And sometimes it's not that, and it's okay either way. Like, I'm, I'm learning. Yeah, same. Yay!

Thank you, my dear. Um,