A Relationship Pivot: Happy Uncoupling With Jennifer Hurvitz

Welcome to the Conscious Pivot Podcast with international speaker, business mentor, best selling author of Pivot and your host, Adam Markell. The Conscious Pivot shares the stories and wisdom of people who have successfully reinvented some area of their business and personal life. You'll gain powerful insights into how you can fully embrace new opportunities, increase your performance, and master the art and science of innovation and resilience. So please join Adam as he guides you on your Conscious Pivot.

Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Conscious Pivot podcast. I'm your host Adam Markell and I'm really excited. I'm just sitting here sort of in mid afternoon on the west coast. Gorgeous day, very breezy today. Kind of a lot of things kind of blowing around but the water is the steel blue. The sky's just got these high, you know, high level white clouds you can hear in the background. Probably there's a, a big sort of beach chime that like a harbor chime that I've got hanging below decks and yet it's so windy you can hear it in the background just a little bit. I am, I'm thrilled. I have a great guest today. I'm so excited actually to get into the juicy bits of the conversation we're going to have that I don't even have any sort of pre frame. I just got to, I just want to just get started actually, which is, which is a good sign. Her name is Jennifer Hurwitz and I'm going to read a little bit of her bio as I ordinarily do and then we'll dig into some of the stuff that's not there as well, which is the juicy bits of course. So Jennifer is known for her no nonsense approach to all things love, sex and relationships and is proud to say she's made quite a career out of a pretty disastrous set of circumstances which include her own divorce. She's a certified divorce specialist. Cds, I actually never heard of that. Probably should have, but haven't. She's a public speaker, a best selling author and the host of Doing Divorce Right, the Doing Divorce Right podcast. Divorced since 2014, Jennifer lives in Charlotte, which I love that city. It's beautiful there. Charlotte with her two kick ass teenage boys through her popular blog the Truth Herrvits. Get that. Just let that land for a second. The Truth Hervitz and her weekly podcast, Jennifer helps people understand what a happy divorce can look like and how to dip their toes back into the dating world. She loves sharing her insight and how to stay in a successful marriage as well. That's really good to know. Jennifer has also been featured on Oprah Magazine, Bustle, Scary Mommy, Blunt Mom, Suburban Misfit mom, and many others. I literally cracking those titles. Wow. Jennifer, welcome to the show.

Hi, Adam, how are you in here going, oh, I want to talk. How are you?

How are you? Way cool. All right, so there's a lot in there. There's definitely a theme. I want to ask you what's not written in that bio that you would love for people to know about?

Oh my gosh, I don't know. I'm just, I'm just so happy to be here. What's not there? Where do I even start? What's not there? I don't know. There's a lot there, right? I don't even know where to start. I think that people need to know that. I don't know. Like, I just, I'm kind of happy. I'm just, I'm happy. My life is doing really well. It started out really crappy in the last five years and I kind of took my divorce, made it into a career, which I think a lot of us do after a divorce. We don't know what to do. I was in a 13 year marriage and I was a stay at home mom and I gave up my career as a DJ to stay home with my kids and I wouldn't have changed it for the world. And then one day I was like, oh my God, what now?

Right?

I'm divorced. What am I going to do? And I had no clue. And I'm here. That's it. You know, so I kind of, so.

Here'S the question is, here's a question.

That'S got lots of them. Let's go.

Right? I got lots of them. But no, this idea of being okay, being happy, I mean, that's its own little thing, right? Because I'm not saying that you're uncomfortable in saying that, but it is one of those things where I think Brene Brown talks a lot about that. Sometimes vulnerability is as much about admitting that things are going well, that I'm in a good place, that my life is working. My TED Talk was all about loving your life. And I can't tell you how many people, which, which wasn't really as shocking as it, as it might seem. But a lot of people push back on that, that, that they're not ready to say the, you know, to sort of own, own the joy in their life as easily as they will own the pain.

I'm with you. And you know what? I loved your TED Talk. I loved it. I loved how you sat down. I loved the whistle. I loved everything about it. It was fabulous. First of all. Second of all, I think that you have to. It's funny, as I'm working on my TED Talk, I have one in April. It's funny, one of my coaches said to me, you know, I think that saying to people, it's called choose happy. Like, choose happy is part of it. And my coach was like, you know, you can't really tell people to choose happy, because if people are really depressed, they're going to be upset by that. And I was like, you know what? I don't agree. I think that, you know, depression, anxiety, all that stuff, I have that going on, too, to be. Put it out there. And I choose happy. Every day I wake up and I'm like, look, I'm going to choose happy. Like, I choose Mandor. You know, I'm going to wake up, I'm going to own it. I'm going to step in that space. And I just think it's a choice to be happy.

Right.

Either you aren't.

So let's talk about underwear first. Now, now, before we really go down that. That rabbit hole, I'll just say this. Underwear. You choose underwear for its comfort, right?

Sure.

I mean. Oh, I should say, okay, sometimes, unless you're wearing a thong, sometimes, you do not choose underwear for its comfort. You choose it for other purposes. Right?

Purposes.

Right. But let's just say daily. The daily undergarments are chosen, I mean, for me, anyway, because they're comfortable. I'm not going to put on something that makes me have to, like, you know, pick it. Pick it out of my. My, you know, crack or whatever. And because that's no fun, I don't think so. Being. Being that we choose, as you said, we can choose to be happy, let's say, or choose to look at things through a lens which. Which provides us opportunities versus, you know, the. The places where we've been aggrieved. You know, maybe just people are more comfortable. Maybe the underwear that they put on is the underwear of pain and the story of suffering. I mean, we all have it.

I mean, yeah, yeah. I mean, when I first got divorced, of course, like, everyone says to me, you know, one happy divorce is one of my books. And then do we divorce?

Right?

Everyone's like, how are you so happy? Look, I was not happy to be divorced. Let me just say that really quickly. I'm not saying, like, one happy divorce or doing divorce. Right. Like, I'm not happy to be Divorced. I'm in a happy divorce. Two different things. So I don't wake up one day and say, oh, I'm so happy I'm going to get divorced. No, no, no. Look, it, I was, it's. There's no way divorce is happy. There's nothing happy about divorce. But I chose to do divorce, right? I looked at my ex husband, I called my husband, I looked at him and I said, look, you're either stuck with me forever or we're going to do this the right way. We're going to be amicable, we're going to be kind, we're going to be, you know, nice to each other and our kids are going to be. Is. We're going to make it as easy on them as we possibly can. Because this sucks. There's nothing good about divorce. I hated it.

How could it not suck? Especially when there are kids involved. Like if there's no kids involved.

Right.

It still sucks, but it's a very different thing. I mean, I'm a child of divorce. My brother, right? Yeah. My parents were married almost 25 years before. In fact, before I got on, you know, with you, I was like, mom, I gotta go. I got a podcast to do. I gotta go. She's still the same. She's the same as ever. And you know what? She's come along long way. But. But I'll tell you what, until even as two, three years ago, she was talking about her divorce.

Yes, it's awful.

And still talking about it. And I don't mean talking about it in a nice way or in a lovely way.

And I'm not saying that there aren't divorces that have to happen. Look, I mean, that's not what I'm saying. If you have to get divorced, if it's, you know, I'm not saying stay in emotionally or physically abusive relationship, get out. That's not what I'm saying. But like, here's the thing. I feel like I jumped too soon. I thought the grass was going to be greener. I didn't have. I was looking at a lens through, you know, my, my therapist was married. My parents were married for 50 years. My sister was married, my friends were married. I was like, you know what? This isn't working. I'm just going to leave. I was like, what? You know, like, do the work because it sucks. The grass is not greener, you know, So I know I'm going all over the place. But my point is, you have to choose to be happy. You really do. You have to. And so My friends are like, well, how are you? So you know how. Look, I was miserable. I was sad. But then I woke up one day and I said, you know what? I have to fl. Flip a switch. I cannot be angry and upset and sad for the rest of my life. I have to turn this. These lemons into lemonade somehow.

So I started to write Ask the question now. Why. Why can't you? I mean, really, don't people do that?

Yeah, they do. And some of my clients do.

And I was gonna say it. I could. I was from New York, and.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm from Detroit.

A lot of them live on the island of Manhattan and they're miserable.

You know, not all of them, but.

Well, you can tell from people. I mean, you just look in somebody's eyes and you know where. Where anger is. Yeah, exactly.

I can't.

So that's a choice, obviously.

The choice I really feel like is people get mad at me and they push back. Just like they push back with your TED Talk, right? Like, they get mad, they get angry. Like, they say to me, well, I'm sorry, I just can't. You know, I get up every day and I'm. I'm. They're still angry at their exes for whatever they've done. They take no accountability. They don't own it. I mean, my first book, like, people say to me, I can't believe you said this stuff. You said, look it, I was a bitch. I wasn't. There was. There's a reason why I'm divorced. I mean, if I was nice every day and. And had sex all the time, I wouldn't be here. Right? So you have to. I mean, come on, let's be honest. It takes two, for God's sakes. So, I mean, you have to own your. Your crap. You have to own it. And so I look at my husband now, and we're best friends, and people say, well, why don't you get back together? Well, we don't want that. It's not that. I'm. I'm not regretting my divorce. I'm regretting the way I treated him. I'm regretting the way that we ended. You know, we ended before we ended, did the work because we didn't know better. But now, looking back five years out of it, I'm like, oh, my God, if I just would have, could have, should have, I can now. I can help other people.

So that makes sense because you speak to a lot of other people. They're involved in your work, as you said. Have you learned. I mean, what are some of the things that you've learned about the process that you wish that you wish you would have known? Sort of five years before the end of your marriage?

That's my second book.

Or not.

Yeah, I know.

You know, not right as you're going to the courthouse.

Where do I start? I mean, there's so many things. Yeah, my second book is.

I don't know, pick. Pick a couple.

Oh, gosh. Okay. Well, I mean, I wish I would have known that it's not only. Not only my life was going to change so drastically with my friendships, but my kids. Friendships. Oh, my God, Adam. I had no idea my kids were going to lose. This makes me, like, I cry every time I talk about every podcast. I had no idea. Like, the friendships, my kids, the pain they were going to endure, friendship wise. Like, I knew my friendships were going to change. Everyone said, you know, oh, your friends will stick by you. No, they don't. Look, and I have the best divorce. I have the best of the worst. We're amicable. We thought we'd make it easy for everyone. You know, we're a team. We're going to stick together. We nested. We were. We still sit together at baseball games. But people, you know, you figured they choose one or the other. Right?

Right.

They just let us both go. And then my kids, all their friends went, too, because nobody knew. Like, you know, then instead of inviting Jonah and Zach to, like, you know, on to the birthday parties, they just said, forget them. Also. So then my kids had no friends at school, and no one wanted to talk to them. And they didn't get invited on, like, the ski trips anymore. I'm like, well, you could take them still. I'll send money. But no one wanted them. It's just like, devastating. You can't even believe. Right. I had no idea the impact that that was gonna have on my kids. I thought, like, they'll be resilient. They'll be fine. They're not. It's like, you know, it's just. It's really, really horrifying what they go through. So it's really big deal.

What's another thing, let's say that you wish you had known five years beforehand.

Oh, my gosh.

I mean, because, look, relationships. Here's the deal, right? Relationships are tough. And there are people that are watching, listening now that. That say, well, okay, it's easy for you to say that. You know, what's your. What right do you have to say? I'll just say this. I'm Married to the same person.

Yeah.

Person I met in college.

She's awesome.

The best. I mean, but, but, and, and, and that's true. And yet she's just a human being. So I speak very well of my wife because it's easy to. Because she truly is this lovely human being. I mean, I only wish. I'm not even kidding because she'll look at me. She's. You're, you're the more evolved one. You're like the Buddha. And I'm like, are you kidding me? I'm still, I'm a recurring angeraholic. I am nasty on the inside.

We all have those days. Right.

You know, for sure.

Right.

But she's just a human being and she has her stuff.

Yeah.

And being married 30 this summer will be 31 years. And just getting up to that milestone of 25 where I knew my parents had kind of, you know, petered out right around that time, that was a weird time for us.

I can't believe they made it that long. Most people, it's like seven years, 10 years and they're like, oh, Jet, I'm.

Out for the kids. I'm going to tell. I'll share a story that I've never, I've never shared before publicly really quick, which is that when I was maybe 12 years old, something like that, I might have, I might have been, I don't know, could have been 14, I don't remember. But it was, it was. I was young and my dad took me someplace. You know, we, I don't. It was afternoon. We went to see an. Went to an apartment. An apartment in an apartment building. We, I was living. We were living in an apartment building. Like, where are we? What are we doing? And we go into this apartment, it's vacant. And we start walking around. You know, it's like a two bedroom or something like that. And at some point he looks at me and he says, you know, I'm. I'm thinking about leaving and go, you know, getting, getting splitting with your mom. And I want us to be together. I want, you know, this, this would be where you would live with me. I, you know. Yeah. It's hard not to get choked up.

Yeah. I like, really.

So Jennifer, I looked he system but he said, I'm not going to do anything without your, with your, you know, like without you saying yes without your approval. This what my dad said. And so I looked at him and I'll never, this is something I'll never forget. The other details falling away. They don't matter. I Looked at him and I said, I want to. I want our family to stay together.

Of course you did.

I said that to my dad when he was in pain, when their marriage was, from his perspective, certainly sucked. And. And he looked at me and said, just tell me. Tell me whether I can do this. Do I have permission to do this? And I told him, no.

Of course you did.

Yeah, exactly.

Every kid asked, any kid, the statistics will tell you kids would 100. I mean, I'm telling you, would rather be in a house where their parents are this. Everyone will tell me you're wrong. Where your parents are actually yelling and screaming. As long as they're not right, then have their parents apart.

In part because that's also where we learn what love means. And now having, you know, all this time from then and, and the wonderful work and the reading and the people, etc. I find that. That the, you know, sort of, you know, universally accepted, that those first seven or eight years are the time when we determine for ourselves, you know, this is a large part of what you do in the world. And your work is about love.

Yeah.

People come into relationships with their own. With their own personal identity and their own definition of what love looks like, what it means. That's why you can't imagine somebody would stay with an abusive spouse for them, if that's what love means, if that's what attention means, because it's what they grew up seeing or experiencing as. As odd as that sounds, as distorted as it even sounds, that you would, you would equate love with physical abuse or mental or emotional abuse. It is what it is. The fact that we gravitate toward that, toward what we find familiar and what, what's, you know, what we know to be true.

Right. Really hard for me too, because I have, like, clients where I have friends that come to me and they're like, I'm really thinking, you know, my heart isn't fluttering anymore. The garage door goes up at the end of the day and I don't know, I just don't feel like I'm in love anymore. And I want to choke them. I want to look at them, my girlfriends or my clients, and say, that's why you really, like, you're not in love, quote, unquote, anymore. Like you're going to throw away your family because your heart doesn't flutter at the end of the day. I'm like, wait a minute, here's a book that I wrote. Here's my life. Look at. Check it out. Because I. You are out of Your mind go home. And that's what I say. I'm like, it is so beyond shocking to me how people are so quick. You know, it's the. It's the quickness, the, like, immediate gratification they need. They don't want to put the work in. Look, I'm not saying. Again, caveat here, you know, get out. If you're in an abusive relationship. I'm not saying that, but my God, if you think that the grass is greener where you're. Where I'm sitting, right, You've got. Look, all relationships are hard. They're all work. Life is tough. But if you think that the work that you're doing in your marriage is any more difficult than the. Than to be happily divorced because it's work to be happily divorced, you know, how hard it is to co parent with, you know, someone that you're angry with or you're at or mad or resentful. Oh, my God. I mean, this is like a whole different ballgame, right?

Yes.

I tell my clients, I'm like, y' all go home and just, you know, dig deep and figure out, do you. Is this really what you want? Right? And nine out of ten times I come back like, jen, thank God you gave me that book. I scare the crap out of people.

You know, Tell me if you agree with this, Jennifer. It's our responsibility. Anybody that's in relationship, to do work, to do the work on yourself first and foremost. Because again, when we. If we think about the fact that the way that we define love has everything to do with who we attract as a mate and what that relationship looks like once we do connect with somebody, then if it's not working, if there's something that's showing up that you don't appreciate, you have to ask yourself, well, again, what's my responsibility in this? What's my work to do? And equally, what's not my responsibility? What's not my work to do? But it has to start with us. So even early in the relationship with Randy, meaning early into our marital relationship, I was modeling a number of the same traits, a number of the same things I saw in the house growing up. The kind of, you know, histrionics, you know, these. These outbursts at time and, you know, just a lot of. A lot of. Yeah, just a lot of. A lot of drama. I don't know.

But you caught it early and you changed.

I caught it. I caught it because I didn't want the same outcome. What was. What was good for me at that time? As I look back on it now, is that I knew that the outcome that was promised by modeling or repeating that same behavior was one I didn't want.

I hope that's for my kids, too. I hope my kids see that. I hope my kids. That's the wish that I have for them, is that they say, I don't want what we have. I hope that they happens with them.

And the conversation around that's important as well, because I would think, you know, people don't really want to sit down necessarily, with their kids and talk about their divorce or talk about how badly they behaved or how, you know, because. And if. And if there is bad behavior that's gonna come up in that discussion, you know, what kind of bad behavior?

Of course. Oh, yes.

Other. It's. It's your father or it's your mother, and it's. It's always gonna be directed at them like they're the bad actors.

Well, you can't do that. Right. You can't do that. I tell my client, there's no bad mouthing. Each. I mean, I've said rules. Right. But, like, no one's. It's very hard to stick to them when you're so angry. Right. It's so difficult. It is. Divorce is just. But it's happening. The numbers are getting larger every day.

Is that right? Well, I haven't followed any of those statistics.

Oh, it's awful.

More than 50%.

Yeah, it's more than 50% now. And it's happening, actually. It's really crazy. This is so nuts. But millennials. This is so incredible. Are actually. The divorce rates lower. Millennials are actually doing things right. They're waiting longer to get married.

They're postponing.

Oh, I love it. It's not because they care about marriage less. It's because they care about marriage more, which is fabulous. Helen Fisher, she's a biological anthropologist, and she talks about slow love, which. I love her.

That's interesting.

Yeah.

What is slow love?

Slow love. That's what it is.

It's like a position in the bed or something.

Yeah, I wish it was. No, that's one of my favorites. But she talks about waiting longer and that they're waiting longer and they're not feeling the pressures from their parents like we did. I felt pressure. I was 27. I was the last of all my friends to get married. Enough kids. My parents sent me to Israel on a singles mission.

On a singles mission.

Go get married.

You will come back married.

You will. You've married, you've dated. Everyone in the whole city now find yourself a man. And I did. I came back. I came back, like, literally got engaged six months. No, six months later, got pregnant, got engaged, married, pregnant, and within a year.

Oh, man, you're a good listener.

I was. My parents, like, you do this. That's it. I didn't even know the guy. I love him. He's the best. I mean, my ex husband is the best. I can't even tell, but. But I had to get divorced for us to become friends, which is so sad. But, like, my. My kids are like, mom, you talk all the time. What's wrong with you? You're supposed to be divorced. That's okay, you know, but that doesn't happen. It's so rare to have a relationship like us. So rare. So is there.

Is there a. I mean, for people that are listening right now who are. I'm sure there's folks that are in solid relationships. There was people that are questioning the relationships they're in. People. Some are on their way out, and there are those that have left or right. Is there a. For the folks, let's say, that are already out. Is. Is there a. I don't want to call it a secret or some, you know, cheesy term like that, but what's. What's one thing that has helped you to be able to talk about your husband the way you do your ex? Your husband, and also that you can be in the same room with each other. I've met. I mean, met. I've spent time with people who cannot spend time in the same room, let alone the same state, even with their ex.

It's all about your ego. All about your ego. You have to put your ego aside and your kids first. If you think about. It's all about your kids. This is the craziest thing. During a divorce, you have to put your kids first. During a marriage, they have to come second. Your relationship has to come first during a marriage.

I wanted you to do that, but you're doing it anyway.

Okay, so this is my TED Talk. This is my TED Talk. I'm giving you a little bit.

I love it. This is the TED Talk right here.

You have to put your kids first during a divorce. Right. But during a marriage, you must put your kids second. And every time I talk about it, people go, I can't believe she said that. Put your kids second. What do you mean? They're, like, screaming at me. By the end of the talk that I give, they're like, oh, my God, she's right. Your relationship has to come first.

I get it. But I really want other folks to hear it.

Yes. Okay. So if you don't put your spouse first. My whole life I was taught, right. My generation, I watched my mom put her, put us first. We were always first kids first, kids first, kids first. That's what I did. I got married, my kids came out of my vagina. And I said, mark, you're second now. Joan is first.

I love it. You just said vagina.

I said vagina.

Haven't had that word come up on one of my shows recently. Maybe in 150some episodes. I don't know that it's ever come up.

I'm doing the clinical work, and I've.

Even gotten to say it now, too. Just because I was. I was just paraphrasing, edifying. And I just thought, well, we dropped the V word. Why not?

I was thinking, you're lucky I said the vagina. I was gonna say something else.

I could say it again, you know, But I won'. See, he thought I was going to.

Do it the minute they did. The minute that Jonah came out, I said, mark, you're now number two. And he looked at me. He thought it was kidding. But from that day forward, my kids came first because that's.

How did I literally say that? I'm just. I know. You're funny person.

No, I did. I looked at him, I said, you're number two. The nurses were all like, oh, I think she's kidding. Everyone thought I was kidding. But I'm serious to this day. He looks at me and says, you told me. You warned me. And here's the thing. I honestly thought that's how it was supposed to be. Like, I just thought they came first.

You're just following the rules.

I was following the rules again.

You're a good girl. Right? They told you to do this. You did it.

But when I ask my public speaking and I ask everybody, I say, who puts their kids. Who gets to puts their kids first? Everyone raises their hand because they think that's the right answer.

Well, it's the badge of honor. Right?

Right.

I think more for women than for men.

Absolutely. But guess what men put first. Guess what? When I ask men what they prefer, I say, hey, guys, who puts their jobs before their kids?

They all go, there you go. Right. Because they're supposed to protect money.

Absolutely.

That's in the DNA.

Yeah, absolutely. But guess what we're supposed to do. Supposed to put.

And aren't women and mothers supposed to nurture their kids? Isn't that Their first responsibility.

But guess what happens when you put each other first. The minute you put your relationship first, automatically, by default, your kids come first because they see the most amazing thing, Right? Am I right?

Don't they? What if you were going to give your kids, like with a magic wand, one, one wonderful gift in life, you know, it would be the, the ability to have great relationships throughout their lives. Right. What else would you give them? Yeah. You want to give them health. I know, I know. That's going to be like high on the list for sure.

Yeah.

But the truth of the matter is, even health, even health comes second in some respects. Quality of your relationships.

What happens? Right? What happens when they see a mom and dad that are happy and they're in love and they're kissing each other and you go, oh, gross, stop kissing. And you're holding hands like, I can't believe mom and dad are so in love. And then what happens? You have sex and then the oxytocin and the dopamine and your hormones and guess what? Everybody's happy. Because when mom and dad are happy, who else is happy? Everybody. The dog, mailman. Everybody's happy. That's what happens. So automatically, by putting each other first and nurturing your relationship and your bond that you have together, boom. Bingo.

Yeah.

Your marriage.

It's this very interesting diet paradox, dichotomy, but it's really a paradox that it's selfish, is. Is not it? It is. It is selfish to be, to be selfless.

Right?

That's what's selfish. I told myself that conversation with my father in law when he was alive. And I miss him every day I think about him and, and this was an area of dispute for us because he's not around today. He's not around because in my, in my view, anyway, he didn't take great care of himself. He wasn't putting himself first.

Well, didn't you say that during your TED talk? You said that you weren't taking care of you.

I wasn't. That was the irony is that I was the one going down in my own water. I was drowning. And it took my daughter, fortunately one of our kids, to point it out to me to just, you know, hold the mirror up. Which is great because at some point that road doesn't lead to good places. When we put ourselves second, when we put it, our relationship with ourselves second to our kids, that's even, I think, worse than putting our relationship with our spouse.

Absolutely. You have to take. And the thing is, it all just. It's funny because I didn't get all this until I got divorced because I was sitting on. I was sitting in Malibu, overlooking the ocean and I was listening to a speaker, her name is Andrea Quinn. And she was talking about her relationship. She's divorced three times. And she finally got it right. And she was listening. I was listening to her speak and she was telling a story about her ex husband and how she used to yell at him. Every time she put. He put a glass on the top rack in her dishwasher, it would break and she would go nuts on him and why couldn't he figure out? And da, da, da, da. And I'm sitting there going, oh my God, that was me. I was emasculating. I always thought, mark, I could do it better, I could do it faster, I could do it quicker. I was awful. I was awful to him. And I started crying. I got it from this, from the beat the overlooking mountain. And I called him, I found a cell spot and I said, mark, I was separated already. I said, mark, I'm so sorry. I was crying. When I tell this part, I'm like, I'm so sorry. I was awful to you for 10 years. I was awful. He said, jennifer, stop beating yourself up. He said, you weren't awful. I was awful. We were both awful. And I said, no, stop, let me apologize. I am sorry. I was emasculating and I am sorry. And he said, it's okay, but like, you have to take accountability for what you've done in your relationship so you can move forward. And that's what I needed. But I didn't see that until it was too late.

It's fair for you to ask me the same question. I'm going to ask you something that I didn't plan on asking. And I think this is an out there kind of a question. Not even sure that you can answer, but I love your opinion anyway. Are women confused?

So I always get in trouble when I answer this because I'm.

Oh, you get asked this.

I get asked a little bit differently. I know what you're saying. So I get asked. I always. People always say to me that I'm so pro that I. Women bash that I'm so pro male because I always say this too, that I think women are, are not confused. I think they need to be. This is. I mean, I don't say this. They need to be sat down and told, am I saying this? Am I saying it right? And maybe I should talk to them all. Does that make sense?

Well, we're gonna see. What would you tell women, if you could sit them down all at once and have some words with them, I want you to be totally honest, okay?

So usually when I give, when I talk, and this is why maybe I'm. People like to have me around, I put the men on one side, of the women on the other. And I always look at the women and I say, I really do. I just say to them, if you don't treat your husbands kinder and stop nagging them and you don't start having sex with them, you're going to end up divorced. Okay? And then I look at the men and I say to them, if you don't start listening when your wife speak to you, okay. You're going to be in a very bad, you know, like the whole big tip, whatever. It takes both sides, right? But every time I say to the women or I say to the men, who, who, who nags. Whose wife nags, all the hands go up. And every time I say to the women whose men don't listen, all the hands go up.

Yeah.

So it's typically very. Those are the big things that happen, right? I mean, like, those are the right. Every, everyone's house is the same. But I always say it flat out. If you don't have sex with your husband, he will find somebody who will. And the whole audience goes. And all the husbands go, mm, this is great.

So a friend, a friend of ours, who we see a few times a year, wrote a very famous book on this topic, Men are from Mars, Women are from Mars.

Of course.

I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I gotta get John on the show and have the same. I'm gonna have the same conversation. No, no. I don't know. Well, I have a feeling, but because he's pretty out there and very, very honest, just like you. And I love that. That's so wonderful. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely a two way street. And by the way, I asked that question because I feel like they're there. The gender, the roles, the traditional roles have definitely changed. And I'm not, I'm not one to say that that's a good thing or not a good thing. They've just changed.

They have changed.

There's adjustment periods. And maybe we're just in the grand scheme of history, of history of humanity, this is just one of those little times where sociologists, 100 years from now, with the benefit of study, research, what happened? You know, they'll look at us and go, well, this is what happened to the institute of Marriage, to the institution of marriage. And this is what happened in relationships when there was this blurring of some distinct lines that people, you know, we're following.

Yeah.

And again, I don't know that we can say it's a good or a bad thing. It's just a thing. Right.

How do you feel about technology, though? Because then you throw technology into the mix and Facebook and you should see the stats on that, you know, like that. I mean, Facebook is like, you know.

I'll tell you what I think. So this is. This will be a separate podcast, but you can see. I'll show you my phone, for example. And people that are watching this on. On YouTube will see it too. Let's see here. So what do you notice about this? You have no evil picture. That's. By the way. That's.

Wait, do you have no apps?

Hold on a second. No, no, I have apps. I'll show you those.

What is that, though?

Hold on. So this is Lake Tahoe and it's gorgeous.

And you were talking about the weather. I'm getting all jealous as it's tornadoing here.

But you. But can you see lake? I mean, can you see the details? Yeah. What, what, what are you noticing about the screen you're looking at?

I'm jealous. I don't know.

Why are you jealous?

I mean, it's so, so, so calming and.

Yeah. Serene. All right, so let's get rid of that so you can see. So there's apps. Right. Nothing calming or serene at all about that. Okay, what do you know? What are you noticing about the screen?

I. I don't know. Tell me.

All right, so how about colors? Let's just go to the obvious.

Well, it's hard to see with the.

Oh, it's tough.

Black and white.

Yeah.

Oh, it's all black and white.

It's grayscale.

Oh, yeah.

Why it's grayscale? Because I watched a documentary about exactly what's happening, or at least from the perspective of the people they interviewed. What's happening with our mobile phones, mobile devices, and what's in it for the likes of. Pick any company that does their business primarily through a mobile app. Other than sort of ride sharing companies or things like that. These companies are looking for eyeballs. It's all about us spending time. I won't use the. I won't use words that are kind of judgmental about the whole business model, but let's just say the more time we spend, the more time we're looking, the more time we're consuming and we're interacting and engaging, the more Money they make, right? For everything, for their advertising, for, you know what, for the information that they share with or without our consent. So this interviewer in this documentary said to this person who was one of the early, early tech people, programmers at a very large platform, which again, I'm not going to say what that was. And he, and she says to him, well, look, I'm looking at your phone. You have, you have a smartphone. He goes, yeah, I do. She says, so you're saying that we shouldn't be on the devices or on the apps because the apps are actually sucking, stealing our time and ultimately manipulating us to do what they, what they're looking for. And she said, so, but you have one. He goes, yeah, except because I need it for this, for that. I got to check my email, I get texts, I'm no different than anybody else. But I don't engage in the apps. I'm not on the, I'm not spending time on those apps. And part of the reason why I'm not is that I broke the hold. It's like I broke the spell. She goes, well, what was the spell? She said, well, they're designed using colors and, and sound, among other things. But we take in more information and more of our brain is, you know, the bandwidth for us is primarily coming from what we visually see.

Right.

And so those, the colors and everything that's on that screen is designed to keep us coming back.

So you're absolutely right.

Like the little red number at the top that shows you how many messages or how many likes or drives me crazy, you know, comments or whatever it is. These are the things that have you continue to go back and look and it's addicting. That's all. That's what it's intended to be, addicting. And it's purposeful and so, and the sounds, same thing every time you hear that little ding that says you shut my. Or whatever it is.

Yeah.

There's studies that say that when you hear that, when you see that little red, you know, red signal, etc. That it, it triggers inside of us the fight or flight response, meaning constantly producing during the day, low levels of cortisol. So we're in sort of a low level state of anxiety a lot of the day. I saw that, I heard it. I didn't even, didn't even mean like I didn't need to have the research and go further. I just said to myself, do I really want to spend more time looking at my phone than looking at other people? I repeat that. Do I want to Spend more time on my device than I want to spend being present with other people. And we all know what it's like to walk out in the street and see people that used to be no one would make eye contact in Manhattan. Like, I was walking to people who didn't make eye contact because that would mean, you know, like, you could get in a fight or something. Now you don't have to worry about making eye contact because people are all staring at their screens. And you go to dinner and there's families. Try dating on dates that are staring at their screens. Right? So we've all seen it. We all get it. And the question is, are you going to be part or am I going to be part of someone else's manipulative business model, or am I going to decide for myself whether I want to spend more time on my device or staring at it than staring into the eyes of somebody that I want to know, I want to care about, I want to listen to.

It's a great idea.

So it's just interesting. And so it took me about 10 minutes because I'm the quickest on technology. But after about. About 10 minutes, I figured out how to get my phone to grayscale. And so now I have the best of what I think are the both worlds. I've got everything I need or want or whatever it is for business, et cetera, But I'm not playing that game the same way. And I got to tell you, my. My time with this thing is down by probably two thirds because it's boring. Look at it.

It's boring.

There's nothing interesting.

It does look a little boring. It does.

It does look a little. And I'll be real honest, the only thing that I miss it all, and I'm not even missing it so much anymore because I love black and white pictures. Black and white pictures are awesome. You didn't even, like, you weren't even thinking, oh, my God, that's the Lake Tahoe. And why is it. You know, why is it look the way it looks? Yeah. So it's. That's the only thing. And when I want to see a picture of the kids or some other thing in color, I'll either go on my laptop to see it or I'll go on my watch.

Of course.

So there it is.

Yeah, that's what I tell people about.

Want to spend more time having. Having, you know, like, be. Have more sex. Get off your device.

Get off your phone. Get off your phone. Get your head out of your apps. Get your head out of your apps.

Your head out of your apps.

That's right.

Hysterical. All right, so I want to ask you a question that I pretty much ask every guest, because we're. We're. We're studying and researching the topic of resilience. We talk a lot about how important resilience is, and. And when we talk about whether you're in. In relationship that needs work or you're out of a relationship, that. That was intolerable. Whatever that looks like, resilience is a big component of it, and I'd love to get your. Your take on that. Your definition or your take on what resilience looks like and means to you.

Well, this is something that. You know, I was thinking about it when you asked me, and I never thought of myself when I was younger, growing up, I never thought I was very resilient. I quit. Everything I did, I quit everything. And when it got hard, when it got too tough, I quit. I was a great cheerleader, but when it was really, it was too tough, I quit. I was in theater. When I got the lead, it was fine, but if I didn't get. If I didn't get the lead, I quit. You know what I mean? I was always like, if it got too difficult, math, eh, I was fine. It was. Quit. I was good at a lot of things, but I wasn't great at one thing. Does that make sense? I don't know if I was. If I was scared of success or I was scared of not being good enough. I think that's what it was, you know, I wasn't very resilient at all. And I think my divorce taught me and my kids taught me. I didn't want them to see me fail again. I'm gonna cry anyway. But I failed at my marriage, I feel like. And I wasn't gonna let it happen again, right? So I just became resilient automatically, I think. I feel like. And then I just won't stop now. I just won't stop. And it's hard every day. You know, I get up every day and I'm like, I'm tired sometimes, and. But I won't quit. I think it's just. I think for my children, they made me more resilient, you know, I just get up and I'm like, you just got to do it, Jen. You just got to do it. Dig deep and just find it, you know? So I don't know if that answered.

Your question, but it did. It does. Thank you.

You're welcome.

The. The rituals that we have to do certain Things sort of. I. The way I look at rituals is that they're a conscious attempt to change something, right? There's something we want to change, and we say, I'm going to do this in order to get that change to happen. Habits are different. You know, we think about habits. I look at them as the things we don't think about that we just have mastered, I suppose, to a certain level. And, you know, when we've brushed our teeth for the 18,000th time, there's. There's. We've mastered that skill. It doesn't. And by master it, I don't mean we even do a great job because we know every time we go to the dentist, they tell us what a shitty job we do.

Brushing, floss.

Enough. Clearly doing it 18,000 times doesn't mean you become a master at anything, really. That's a whole other conversation for another day. But. But this idea of consciously choosing to do something to create something like resilience, is there something that you can look at in your daily. In the daily things you do with consciousness that produces greater resilience? And if not, for some reason, maybe. Maybe this is that moment where you.

Decide, yeah, I'm kind of thinking, I think I need to do something. I do. You know what I've always wanted? I really want to meditate. Everyone I know that meditates. Do you meditate?

I do now.

You do?

I do. You know, it's a funny part of my Ted where I said, I'm a really crappy meditator, right? And there was something about saying that out loud in front of so many people and all this and that and laughing about it, that went to me, you know, what, do I have to continue to be a crappy meditator just because I declared that out loud, Right? And I don't. I'm not a crappy meditator.

Okay, See, I can meditate. I can. I can. I used to think I couldn't. I would tell everybody, all my guru people, I would say, no, you can't be like, no, I can't. I'm too hyper. I can't do it. But you can, right?

Yeah.

Well, I don't even.

Lunatics like us.

Right? Even like crazy.

Right?

Exactly. So I feel like that's my. That's my goal is to be. I'm going to be. I'm going to be more. What's the word? You know, I'm going to try to just meditate. Like really do it, I think, and be more intentional about actually.

Why. What do you Think you'll get out of doing that?

Well, you know what? I was just diagnosed with a crazy autoimmune disease, and I have to have infusions and all this stuff and blah, blah, blah. And I think that I will find a little bit more inner peace, maybe, and a little more. I think I'll be more grounded. Sometimes I feel like my shoulders are always up. Do you ever feel like that where, like, you just can't.

Tense.

Yeah, tense. Maybe that would help. And I think.

And that. And it's clear. I mean, everybody can, I think, figure out, you know, how being more calm and peaceful and grounded would actually help with resilience.

Yeah.

Your ability to keep going.

Yeah, just keep going. Just got to keep going, you know, And I think you find people for a reason. And I think that, you know, we find people like, you know, like you and this connection and, like, you find people that keep you going. Right. And so it's cool. I'm glad I met you. This is a great talk.

Oh, Jennifer, I'm thrilled that we met, that you came on the show. And by the way, I just am in love with that. The truth hurts.

Right? That was the first thing I ever did. I didn't even know how to write. And then I. Then they.

It's clever. I appreciate, and I respect clever.

Thank you.

And not just clever, but. But, you know, like my grandmother. My grandmother's form of cleverness, where it's. There's an intelligence.

Thank you.

And it's not just the silly, silly things. So, yeah, thanks for being on the show. Thanks for sharing so, so vulnerably, transparently, what's going on and what has happened. There's. There's a lot of people that. That, you know, that where it's not. It's not necessarily over just because a relationship isn't going well or the trajectory is sort of, you know, like a death spiral into that, you know, it doesn't mean you can't pull up that there isn't. I believe in miracles. I wake up every day, and pretty much every day, in addition to saying those words, I love my life. I say these words. I say, I wonder what miracles are coming today. I asked. I said that out loud this morning, and Randy and I were lying in bed and we had a little giggle about it. And they're just miracles all the time. So why, you know, if you believe that, if you buy that. And I can't imagine. I can't imagine any adult person does not have a lot of their own living proof of what A miracle can be. I mean, just the fact that you are breathing in this moment, just the fact that you could be listening to a podcast of two people you may have never heard of, you never know, you've never met, you know, but you're, you're on your. You're on your, you know, your peloton, you're on the treadmill, you're walking in the desert, you're on in a car or at work when you should be working, and you're listening to this podcast. Whatever it is that you're doing, this is a freaking bona fide miracle. And that you're breathing and alive and that the world is. That you're. You're, you're sitting. Standing or whatever, lying down on. On a big, great big ball of dirt that is the size of a grain of sand in spinning, in infinite space. I mean, for real, you can't, you can't put any faith in miracle. It's like you. Somehow that's happening. That's all going on. The tides are coming in and going out, and there's animals that you, you know, that are doing things that are remarkable, and all that's happening. And somehow or another, you can't turn around a shitty relationship. You can't figure out a way to be kinder or to be more compassionate or to be more present with someone or to just express love, even if it doesn't mean you're going to live together forever, or even if it doesn't mean, whatever it doesn't mean. Can you just extend love to someone that is, you know, someone in your life today that you don't feel like extending love to or forgiveness or something? I mean, it's just all possible. And I'm really happy that we got to have this conversation. And it's just a couple of weeks after, you know, after Valentine's Day, too. So it's good timing for it and for folks out there. We'd love to get your feedback. I know Jennifer is doing amazing things in the world. She's got a great website. You can find out more about her, the work she's doing, her blog, her podcast. All of that will be in the show notes. Click those links, go to her website, check her out. I mean, there's so many places to learn, and she's a font of great, just great, everything. Thanks, Jennifer. Really. Yeah, thank you. And of course, leave your comments@adammarkelle.com podcast and if you haven't subscribed, subscribe to the show. We'd love to get your feedback so, quick reminder for the ritual when we wake up tomorrow, put your feet on the floor. If you can do that, that's a miracle all by itself. Not everybody gets to do that. Take a deep breath, pause for just 10 seconds, just 10 seconds before you get on to the, you know, the ordinary things of the day, the important things of the day as well, like getting that coffee made. Get, you know, getting the shower in and the shave and the kids dressed and lunches made and all the stuff we've got going on. Take 10 seconds for yourself. Put yourself first when you wake up tomorrow. And if you want to say something like, I love my life, then go for it. If you want to say something like, I wonder what miracles are coming today, go for it. Jennifer, what's one thing that you would. You could recommend that people say first thing out of the gate, wake up.

Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I don't know. I don't know. Just choose happy. Just choose happy. Wake up and choose happy. Just be happy.

I choose happy.

Show up and choose happy.

Love it. So killer. Beautiful. All right, everybody, ciao for now.

Thanks for listening at the we hope you now have the tools and greater insights to navigate your own pivot. Help us inspire others by sharing this episode and leaving your comments over@adammarkel.com podcasts for more tips, strategies, and support as you consciously pivot into a new business and lifestyle you love, join our Pivot community on facebook@pivotfb.com.

It.