Becoming A Driver Of Change With Lisa Carlin

Life happens, and not always the way.

We expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress, and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markell and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change. Proof.

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Change Proof podcast. I'm your host, Adam Markel, and I love the guest I've got. You're going to really enjoy her presence and her way of thinking, her insights, et cetera. I'm going to share a little bit more about her and then we'll just jump right in as usual. So her name is Lisa Carlin and she is a strategy execution specialist. She helps business leaders to plan and execute their strategic projects, such as AI in tough environments. She's run her own successful advisory business for more than 25 years, delivering more than 50 transformation programs in organizations large and small. We're going to talk about some of those today as well. Her newsletter, Turbocharged Weekly, is read by almost 8,000 executives. Again, this conversation is going to be chock full of really interesting stuff and you're going to love it. So sit back or walk, run, whatever you're going to do, but just put yourself in a position to truly be present and enjoy my conversation today with Lisa Carlin. Okay, Lisa, so I'm already anticipating what will be an epic conversation. I loved our bit of warmup before we even hit the record button. And, and so now you've just heard me introduce you and share a little bit about your background and, you know, the CV and all that good stuff, your experience. What is something, maybe one thing that is not part of your bio, the standard intro and all that kind of thing, one thing that you would love for people to know about you.

Well, you know, Adam, when people meet me and they read my bio and they know what I do, it's all about people, right? So it's all about, you know, behavioral change at work, culture, getting things done at scale in organizations through understanding human beings. But underneath all of that, I'm actually a tech geek. So when I was in high school, my father was importing one. He imported one of the first. I grew up in South Africa and my father imported one of the first computers and built it from scratch with the motherboard and all the soldering, all the chips onto it. And then it just got infectious. And I started learning how to program at that age when that wasn't taught at school and when all my friends were Playing Atari and Pluckman and all those sorts of things. I was writing stories that games, interactive games. And I've always just been a bit of a tech geek. So I had a, a Palm Pilot and then after that one of the first smartphones, which was called a trio in the, in, you know, so way before, you know, Apple came up with the iPhone. And, and that's why I just love AI. So underneath all of it.

Yes. And it's such an interesting thing right, when you're, when you're a lover of sort of the more interpersonal kind of work. And I think we have this in common. I was in the law and for 20 years I was in that sort of area of my life as a lawyer. But, but the interpersonal stuff felt like that wasn't, that was the stuff I enjoyed the most, but it was the least, the least of what I did. It was certainly the least, the least of what paid the bills in that, in that particular arena for me at that time. And the work I do now and the work you do working in organizations with teams, with leaders, et cetera, it's very much an interpersonal thing. And yet even though we love that, I also so geek out on the research side of things on the data. I never would have believed that that would have been the case. And I love tech on so many levels. And, and you know, we actually developed a AI bot, a clone of me, about three months ago. We, we went into beta with it. We've been working on it for several months before that. And even at this stage where AI is quite well developed and a lot of people obviously can see that it is here to stay and it is prolific and, you know, ubiquitous, all it's going to change the world even more than it has already. I still feel like we're a little ahead of the curve, that not everybody yet has gotten to that, to that stage. So it's fun that you and I have that in common. We love tech on top of that.

Yeah, that's exciting that you built your own bot because I go and talk to different CEO roundtables and audiences about AI and how to, how to plan, do the strategic planning for AI. And I ask, you know, the groups, can you just show, show of hands who's, who's dabbling in AI, who's using AI in their business. And it's quite interesting that the, the proportion is really low. So if you ask people, have you ever tried ChatGPT? Almost everybody will put their hand up now. They've tried it, but then that's it. And they're just not, you know, still. It's taking a while to, to get that over that fear, I think. So when you, when you like technology like you do, Adam, you don't fear it. And so that's why you've become one of the early adopters. And I don't either because I, you know, but the tech professions scare people. They do. They use all these acronyms and people think, oh, it's going to, you know, that's going to take my job. Even when the Internet came out, if you think back to that and how nervous people were at first to experiment or, and couldn't quite understand that they could actually find things out there. And you know, it's part of all the resilience that you talk about really. It really is. It's just having that resilience to I guess try things out. Yeah. And, and make that conscious decision to try things out. Yeah.

You remember, obviously we both remember the turn of the century. I mean it's, it's an amazing thing when you could have part of your life overlaps an actual turn of the century which is pretty. Right. And not be like a, you know, so young that you don't even remember it or so old that you don't even remember, you know, but so the turn of the century obviously in 2000, among it being this amazing experience. And I remember like seeing the fireworks from Sydney, Australia on the TV and it was, you know, the Opera House there it was right behind the Opera House and that beautiful Sydney Bridge. I mean it was pretty in indelible in my memory now. But the other thing that was also hard to forget was the paranoia around Y2K. Do you remember how like off the wall nuts people were about what was.

Going to happen when all those computers clocked over? And then it got one January and it was like an anti climax and then we were merrily carrying on and then we had the dot com crash and then everything. It's just. Yeah, all these cycles. Hey.

Yeah, exactly. Literally the thought that the world was going to end. So. Yeah, so it's, it's an interesting thing to be so much of the, of the social, social sciences and I was an English major in college and just steered away from all that kind of, you know, math. Math really Math related things or science related. So much to be so embracing of it at this phase and in part because I feel like there's an element and when we talk about AI, when I deliver talks, keynotes and things like that, where we do Work with companies. We often are talking about it from the standpoint of how it can contribute to wellbeing in the workplace, which is not a technologist's perspective on it, because the ability to use it as a tool for productivity, but also for creating this more sort of harmony between your work life and your. Not work life. There's so many tools available. I mean, that even the term artificial intelligence, which I know goes back to the 50s, really, when these things were really first being coined, as I understand it. I prefer. And we've been using the term more augmented intelligence as a way to see how it. How does it augment the intelligence of the universe, our intelligence, you know, the collective intelligence of our teams or organizations, which is an interesting way to look at it, we think. So it's. I want to get your beat on it because I know you work with leaders and you work to empower them and even create transformations within organizations. I want to get a little of the backstory on how you got sort of pointed in that direction. And it's. Obviously, it has stuck. But I'm sure there's some earlier pivot stories of things that you were doing and that were leading to this. Could you kind of bring us back maybe to one of those moments where, you know, maybe you were still searching for what would feel good when you got up in the morning, you know, to do.

Yeah, well, you know, there were two really. I was working at Accenture and that was in Cape Town. And we were. I. I did that for a short while and a couple of years and we were developing some systems. So I thought, you know, go into that and. Because I love tech and it wasn't for me, I miss getting out there and I wanted to work with people. But what I had this sort of epiphany, I guess, is around we had developed all these great systems and, you know, the work was such high caliber that the organization was doing. And then people didn't always use them in that, like in the right way or they were scared to use them. Like you talk about, you know, Y2K, you know, I remember training one guy and he was older, older man, and we'd filled out all information on the screen and he had to press the return enter key. And he was actually scared to do that in case he put something in wrong. So it's that fear. And I realized the people side of things were really, really important. So I became interested in change management. And then cutting a long story short, I went to go live in the US and I had the opportunity to work for McKinsey. And that was fantastic. We were doing all this amazing strategy work and we delivered these brilliant pieces of strategy work to the clients and Kinsey do some fabulous work. Amazing. And then I'd have the sinking feeling that they are. They don't have the will or skill to do anything with it. And so they. This, they've got the strategy, but like, you know, where to from there? And again became, I became really interested not only in the change management, but also in the culture of organizations and how do you get that strategic influence to, you know, to, to move forward and get things done. And, and that was really when I. So those sort of two experiences kind of led me to really want to focus on getting things done in organizations through people and culture. And that's when I started my own. I went to go work for a firm that focused on that and then started my own business in 1999. Yeah. Yeah.

So you had the entrepreneur sort of DNA, I guess, right?

Yeah, I never really thought about it that much because I just knew this is what I want to do. And it was more like the solopreneur, like I'm just gonna go and do this myself because I've got the skills to do the work. I know I'm gonna put it all together and run these multifunctional projects and programs of change. And that's what I've done. I've done over 50 of them. And, you know, and I want to work, you know, directly with clients without having the interface of a, of a consulting firm sitting in the know. When you work on your own, you've got a lot more flexibility around working with the client and the way you want to work with them. And, and you don't have to pay for an office. So you can, you know, it's, that's on the same things you can, and you can work there for longer, you know, rather than hiring a firm that, you know, they can't wait to get you out because of the expense.

Yeah, it's. We find the same thing. And, and I would say agility is not just a word. Being, being agile is, is really. You can see almost from the start just what, what it looks like when you're, when you're working with an organization that is sort of stuck in process and, and stuck. Stuck in their own systems and not, not therefore able to be flexible and adaptive, truly adaptive, which is ironic. You know, systems are required and structure is required, and yet people can get, you know, sort of locked and stuck inside of those things. So I would love to, if we can maybe take a little survey of the journey because you mentioned, and it is part of your bio, this sort of 50, 50 transformations in organizations that I'm sure span like this massive diversity of, you know, everything, you know, we could probably imagine. So let's see, is there a through line in looking at 50 organizations? What can we say? Is there a common sort of a thread that runs through them all when it comes to change? Let's start there. How do organizations typically either sort of fail at change or are sometimes better than would be expected even? What have you found in having that many organizations to draw upon in terms of your experience?

Well, it's been an interesting ride and I've been very fortunate because, well, I mean I, I'm a dog with a boat, like a dog with a bone, like I, you know, I will, I'm incredibly persistent and I will find a way through to get things implemented. So, you know, I've had, I've had two failures out of the, the first 50 programs I've done. And so, and so I'm pretty proud of that. And I've learned from the, you know, learned from those failures. I think the hardest thing that people don't, and they don't think about them with change in all the different organizations is that if I always say to people, understand culture of the organization, right? Understand culture, not just to change it, but actually to navigate through it. Right? Understand culture, to navigate it, not just to change it. Because people talk about the culture of the organization and they talk about how they want to change it to be, I don't know, more innovative or more performance orientated or whatever it is. But effectively to achieve change, leaders have got to navigate through the existing culture before they can even think about changing it. And so especially new leaders like I see, there's so much churn in organizations. You see people coming and going and the new leaders come in and they often the ones that want to achieve change and they want to achieve cultural change and unless they actually fit it in, fit in and accepted by the organization that they can't change anything. And you know, so they first got to understand the culture. And there's always, by understanding the culture you can figure out how to get through the difficulties and how to, how to get things done. So I'll give you an example. In a very large bureaucratic bank, they'd merged in with another, with another. They'd actually acquired another significant business in financial services and they were trying to integrate them together. And I ran a stream of work there to do the integration. And there was such people identified with their silos. So they were very. It was a very siloed culture. And we needed cross functional participation and integration to get things over the line. And so I formed this cross functional group. And the way we formed it and the way we got people involved and the way we worked together, I found a way to get them all to identify with the same success measure. And then only then could we really get people thinking outside their silos. Like they come from marketing or they, you know, whatever. They come from product area, wherever they come from in the bank, they all want this particular project to be successful. And then it becomes a bit of a game, right, because you got a time frame and you've got to get it done and everybody's pulling together. Then you get excitement and you get some visibility. You get some visibility to the folks that are involved so that they feel like it's really the success of this project is critical for them in their career. Right. You find those kinds of reasons why people want this to be successful. And it all works. And we got in, we got the project done on time, you know, got the integration happening and everybody was thrilled because it was really hard. It was really hard to do this. And so, so that's like. Because of that siloed culture, that's where it's really hard. You know, you find these aspects of the culture that is going to stop things happening and people working together. And I find that all the time. All the time.

Yeah, Yeah. I just was having a conversation this morning with a colleague of mine about this and I'll tell you what we were talking about and ask you the same question, which is in an organization where you're trying to assess where things are at, if you speak to people, often when it comes to advocating or discussing what change might look like or change that has to happen, people will advocate for their own existence. So they very rarely are going to advocate for something that makes them vulnerable to obsolescence or to redundancy or any of those things. So you find that, that status quo, even though we all know that status quo is not a reason to wake up and, you know, be excited about your day. And status quo will ultimately. And when I ask people about this, they always nod, you know, yes, of course, that makes sense. Status quo will lead to mediocrity, it will lead to toxicity, will ultimate to the devolution of a system. Because we're either growing. Systems are either in some form of growth or they're in some form of decay. And everybody gets that. And yet again, people will not advocate against their own interests. It's a kind of a default way of responding to things. So when you are looking at an organization and trying to assess culture, it's really difficult to kind of ask people about it because they're like a fish that's in the water and all that kind of thing. So what are some of the things that you look at? I mean, what are some of the things that after having been done this so long that you could almost as a matter of gut instinct or as a litmus test or it's just something that is tried and true for you, like a smell, you know, you just go, yes, I can smell fear. I can smell that this is a fear based culture or you know, whatever the things are that we find that are getting in the way of, of true evolution. So what are some of those things for you? And, and is there a, you know, sort of a, a funny story or an interesting cautionary tale in there that you've seen any, anything like that?

Oh, look, you, you just have these conversations with people like it's those water cooler moments, right? What's it like to work here? Do you like your job? You know, that's even a closed question. I try and ask the open questions, right, like, what's it like to work here? But even if you ask a closed question like do you like your job? Right. That is like, you know, red rag to a bull. And you'll get, you know, all sorts of things. So really just I spend time at the beginning of every project, really getting to know the organization and I start with the leader who's hired me and say, you know, tell me what it's like to work here. And then people share the most interesting things. I mean, I worked with one CEO who, so she told me that she was planning to leave confidentially and you know, and why she didn't like. Yeah, why, why she didn't want to stay in the organization. And you know, it sort of hits you right when she starts talking about it that why it's not the place that she wants to be and what's, you know, wrong with what's in that culture that's not working? Which is ironic because the CEO has a huge influence over the culture that she wants to create, you know, and she could. You can create? Yeah, leaders can create and change the culture. It takes a while. It's like a ship, you know, turning a ship and it's slow. But you. Yeah, I just ask I just talk to people and they, they tell me stuff. And then you, and if you've spoken to at least six to eight people in an organization and you hearing by then after about the, you know, the eighth person, you're not going to hear anything new from a cultural point of view. You just pick up those tips. And what advice I give to people is I have a membership that I run called the Turbocharge Hub. And what we do, it's all about how to get influence at scale in an organization to get change to happen. And everything I teach is looks at that culture lens. And I give them a list, people, a list of different types of cultures. I say look, pick 1, 2, 3 at most, right? Attributes of the organization that are the most significant in how things work around here and prioritize them. What's first, what's second, what's third. And people can do that. And that's going to be as accurate as these. I've done, you know, multimillion dollar cultural diagnostics. And there's value to those in some ways too. But people, you know, have these conversations and you, people know, you know, if you explain to them how to define culture, they'll, they'll know. Don't you find, Adam, in all your work that you hear a lot of, oh, this is a great place to work, or this is a great culture. And that word, great, what does that mean anyway? It doesn't define things.

No, it doesn't. And I, I agree with you that the question of what's it like around here? What's it like to work in this kind of, this environment leads to the most interesting transparent revelations. People will, you know, there's quite a lot of gossip, frankly. There's a lot of people that will just speak and tell you things you seemingly couldn't imagine anybody sharing, certainly not with a stranger, not with somebody who's even been hired to kind of, you know, be in that investigative role. So it, that's, that's interesting. And again, that's a reflection of what, what it's like inside of that organization, whether or not those things are in some ways either rewarded or are being modeled elsewhere where there's permission that's given or, or where it's, it's even, you know, sort of a response to a lack of, a lack of voice and a lack of people's ability to communicate their feedback. And when that feedback system, or loop as we refer to it, is sort of not operative, then, then people have other ways of exercising their displeasure or their, you know, they find other outlets for their thoughts, constructive or otherwise. So to me, you know, again, there are lots of little tells, and that, that's one of them I found inside some big organizations. The, the willingness to sort of, you know, crap on things and crap on other people and, you know, is, is a tell. Sometimes it's just a person, but often it's. It's not just a person. It's. It's a person that may lean that way, you know, maybe predisposed to that on a personal level, but it's inside of that ecosystem that they're empowered to do that, where that's their response to the fact that they don't have any other, any other healthy outlets for it. So I would love to know, in your experience, is there, is there some aspect of a broken culture or toxic culture, you know, cancerous culture, that you find is more prevalent? And the reason I say this is because to me, again, this conversation I had with a colleague earlier today was about the fact that you sort of looking at it from a nature like a holistic standpoint, you're always going to find something that's either in that phase of it's growing, it's evolving, or it's dying, it's decaying. And so if you look at an organism, it's not any different than looking at an organization which is made up of many organisms. It's either going to be in one of those stages or some variation in that cycle. So often we're brought in. I prefer to be brought into an organization that is actually in an evolutionary stage phase. I prefer that because to me, it's, it's again, a reflection of the leadership and even the culture that when times are good, they invest in continuing for times to be good and for them to be even better. They're not riding on, you know, their, whatever it is, on their success or banking on it, versus the companies that will only sometimes bring, bring people in when something's totally broken. And then there are these other companies that when things are broken, they're in the greatest feeling of fear and scarcity, and therefore they won't invest any money in anything that isn't so like, you know, driving sales or cutting expenses kind of cycle, you know, and that's even among public companies. Right? So it's just shocking how that, that's, that mentality is so repetitive, it's so commonplace, you know. But again, is there, is there something that you've noticed in, in your work that is just sort of the most prevalent tell of, of a culture that is in need of support.

Well, more so than even observing. When I've looked at the research, the. So human synergistics does some really interesting research and they've got millions of people that have filled out surveys on their tool. Organizational Cultural Inventory. OCI and oppositional cultures come up as number one. So this is where people are more likely to say no than yes. Right. And be really cynical. And it's those cultures that. So you see those. So that. That's what the research is saying. When I go into organizations that are. That tend to be larger. So that's where you would be most likely to see these sorts of oppositional cultures. So the picture, typical picture is the ostrich, you know. Well, it's no. And there's often an ostrich with head in the sand. But that's sort of, you know, just like very focused on what's in it for me. Right. And so I don't want to hear your stuff. It's new. You know, you talk about that whole Y2 case in Rome and new technology, new anything. I don't want to. I don't want to hear about it because I'm too scared. I'm scared it's going to show me up in some way that's bad. So it's easier for me to point fingers and say, why your idea is not going to work, and then I'm safe. And that's very dangerous in an organization. I'm sure you've seen that.

Yeah, I might call that like the status quo bias that. But you're right that. That sense of it's easier to say no. I saw that as a lawyer too, because in many ways what lawyers get paid to do in certain respects is to sort of say why something will not work. I mean, transactional attorneys or.

Exactly.

Attorneys that are involved even in organizational.

Exactly. Pointing out flaws. That's what you paid to do. Right?

Yeah. And it's easier to do that because it's safer to do that than it is to say why something might work or could work or to advocate for it, because if it doesn't work, then, you know. Well, you said, you said we could get away with that. He said we could do that. And clearly that didn't. Didn't work out. So it's on you. Yeah, I mean, it's. So if. If we're diagnosing that, let's say. Let's just say that's what we've found.

Let's say that comes out as your number one feature of your culture.

Right. We Take, we take out, we're gonna.

Narrow it down to just a few things. And what's the main feature of the culture? We.

Yep, right. Take out our prescription pad. So yeah, what, what's going to be on your prescription pad for that, for that leadership, that senior leader team, you know, like what are you going to tell them?

Yeah, well, my focus is all about how you can get things done and you can get forward momentum. And that oppositional culture is exactly the opposite. Right. Because if you're going to point out the flaws and find mistakes and it's the gas and break, you know, it's exactly diametrically opposed.

Yeah.

So it's really important that the people have a chance to be some self discovery in there so they can understand it and work through that and understand what it means. And then I help them develop the execution architecture, if you like, the way the ecosystem that is going to help them to get things done. And I'll give you one easy trick out of all of this. Right. For an oppositional culture. So I've got lists of different types of culture and what I teach people is how do you set up that execution from a project management point of view, from a change management point of view, from a strategy point of view, from a leadership style point of view, how do you work within that culture to get things done? So one example, when you are oppositional, you like to critique things because that's coming from your place of fear. And you're always going to do that before you. If you, if you know, ultimately if you're going to agree to something, you're still going to start from that negative place. So you need to give people that forum to be as negative as possible and get it all out first before you even turn to the positive. So I set up a conversation that says, okay, let's go through all the problems with this idea and then we're going to look at the positives and how it could work. And that simple way of doing things by starting with the negative because you know, people want that outlet for all their fears and then focusing on the positive and how you can make it work, that just simple technique works really, really powerfully. Because by asking people, then they get out all their negativity, they get all out all the issues and fears and then by asking them to focus and brainstorm on the positive things and how it can work when people start going, oh, actually we could do this and we could do that and then they tackle some of those fears that they've raised and that's A really exciting process.

Yeah, it is. Especially when you, when you see the people shift and it, and it is, I mean, people are, you know, can be tough nuts for sure, but it is also possible to see these sort of micro movements and, and you could call them changes or behavioral change, but it's really not like you said, it's, it's more of a, A, a default mode, if you will, that people lean toward, as you say, opposition or naysaying or, you know, sort of waiting to see whether or not other people will adopt or other, you know, how it will be going before they commit to, you know, whether they're bought in or not. You know, you know, that sort of self preservation, really.

Yeah. And I've used it for some of the most, you know, toughest leaders I've come across. So one CEO said to me, his people, his CFO had asked me to come in and have a look at the structure they've got for growth. And I didn't think that what they had, it was a global growth plan and it wasn't going to work. So then we first spoke with the cfo, then went into the CEO and started talking to him after doing some work around what are some options? And he did not want to hear, he paid me, but did not want to hear my answer that he was wrong. So very oppositional, very brash, very arrogant style, very hard for me to come into his organization after a minute of being there and tell him he's wrong. And I used that same technique. And you know what? He turned around and he said to me, yeah, actually I want what you're saying. So I understand that second option, that other option is the way I need to go. But I'd given him a chance to, to think through, you know, again, the positives and the negatives and, and so he could see the issues with what he had in mind.

Yeah. I'm curious just on the side of business development for, as an example, just to have that conversation for a moment, what's the most difficult part about. Because we, because before we even hit the record button, you and I were, you know, having a moment and just vibing on the, on the, the kind of good news in, in our lives and our work lives that it, that we get to work with within groups of people, within teams and organizations and see either, see an actual ripple effect of positive change that occurs in the level of engagement and the performance and many other metrics that, that get measured throughout one of our engagements, but we also get to assume it, even if we can't see it if we don't see it at some point. We just know that if we can have a positive impact on someone who is in a leadership role or on a team itself, that there will be this ripple effect that we may not be around to see. It could be two years from now, three years from now, that something, there's still some really true benefit from it, which is quite exciting. And yet to get into, to get inside, to be given that the proximity is such a, It's a privilege, it's an honor. We're paid to do it for sure, but yet it is not an everyday occurrence and it's not a thing that, that is where that access is given lightly. So I'm just curious, how does that, you know, what do you find is the greatest challenge in some of the. Just the early conversations that you have with either someone who's a champion already or someone that's been referred to you or, you know, you've been given introduction and now you're having conversation and it's, you know, you're not gonna, it's like a person that you see on the street that's walking with a baby carriage and you look inside that carriage and you see a baby in there. You don't, you would never say, oh, what a, what an ugly baby you have. A, you wouldn't say it because it's not true. I don't think there's ever, ever an ugly baby. I'm saying that I don't really believe that's true. But even if you did think somehow that that was not an attractive baby, it would be the most insulting possible thing you could ever say to anybody.

So you see, that is why, sorry, I'm jumping in, in the middle here. That is why consultants never say, this is your problem. They will say, this is your opportunity.

So it's, it's dicey, right?

Yeah.

I mean, especially if you're sitting down with somebody who's in a, in, in, you know, a senior level role, maybe even a CEO, and you could just tell like because you've done it long enough that you just go, you're the problem. You're part of the problem. You're part of the problem. I know that's what we're going to find out. But, but I mean, outside of something like that, you know, what are those conversations like for you? And, and you know, you did share that there were two engagements that didn't go well. Would you mind just giving us, not the gory details, but I'm sure People would be curious, like what didn't go well or right and why and what did you learn from those?

Yeah, well, the one which was sort of a major sort of point in my life, I guess, which was, you know, I'm wired, like I said to you, to just be really persistent and find different alternatives to different solutions and work with people to find those solutions to make things work. And so that's what I'm used to. And they just work. And I was in one organization where we had a steering committee for the program we had for the project. We had almost every of the key executive function, each of the different functional areas on the steering committee as a decision making body. And they would not agree on anything. Adam, I've never had so many corridor conversations in my life trying to sort of just kind of get people to kind of think broad, help inspire them to think broader than just their own, their own area. And then they'd come into their steering committee and none of them would just could not get them to agree on anything. And what I should have done is, is go to the CEO because it was a mess, right? And what happened eventually is some of the key people that I was working with, they were just real high performers in the business, left and resigned because it was just, they were, we weren't getting anywhere. The project sponsor, who was the marketing director was, exited the business. You know, it was just, you know, the project was wound down. I had, you know, was let go all within the same sort of the same week. Absolute mess. And they'd spent all this money trying to fix this problem in this business that was losing money, you know, millions every month. So, and, you know, we were all trying to fix it and it was just a mess. So everybody's, you know, not good for anybody. And ultimately what happened? Within six months, every single member of the executive team of the steering committee, bar one, had left the organization and ultimately the CEO as well. So it was a disaster. And I felt very personally responsible because as the program, project manager, whatever you want to call me, I was responsible for developing this new strategic plan that would save the company, basically. And I'd failed. And what I, you know, over the years I, you know, done a lot of soul searching. What could I have done differently? Because clearly we had a dysfunctional team. And at the end of the day, what I realized, you know, and so some things were outside my remit perhaps, but, you know, I believe in thinking about, well, what can I do to make that difference? It's, you know, the Stephen Covey Stuff around circle of influence. What could I influence? And what I really should have done is I should have gone to the CEO at the time and had a conversation about that this was not working. And I didn't. And the reason I didn't is because I didn't have the confidence. I hadn't met the person. I met the person, but I hadn't got to know them properly and I felt I couldn't run around the project sponsor that I had go above his head and I just didn't. And I should have found a way to do that.

Yeah. It's so interesting to look backwards on those kinds of moments. Yeah, it really is. Thank you for, thank you for sharing that. I guess it's going to lean into just the last couple of questions I have here. But, but mental health, that's a good segue. Or we'll build a bridge for one. But how, how are you assessing mental health in the, in the lead with the leaders and the organizations that you work with? And what have you seen, you know, like when we talk about culture, I think culture has changed quite a bit in my experience, pre pandemic to now, after the pandemic, a. Do you, do you, do you see the same. And if so what changes in culture have you seen? If there's something that's kind of a through line to that and where does it tie into mental health? Because we're seeing more statistics coming out every single day about the prevalence of burnout and mental health decline. And, and I don't. And I, and I think it's certainly the thing that to, to address. We, we address it. We. I just love to get your thoughts on it.

Well, what's interesting is that the obligation to look at things and to take care of people's psychosocial safety is becoming more and more important. So in Australia, I'm based in Sydney, as you know, Adam, we now have legislation where you can actually, it's a criminal offense if you don't set up an environment that's psychosocially safe for people. And in some of the European member states are also introducing this kind of law. So it's quite interesting that the onus is now becoming more and more on leaders to think about these things. So this is things like overload of too much work. And the other thing that's called out, for example, in Australian law is the actual change process itself. The change management. The management of change needs to be done in a way that take, you know, you've got to think about the people and you know, if not, yeah, there's, there's criminal sentences associated with this. So. Because there's definitely, as you say, since, since COVID there's been a prevalence of mental health issues. I see a number of executives saying they're overwhelmed and quite openly now, which is quite interesting. You know, it doesn't have to be all the way through to, you know, severe issues, but even just, you know, well functioning people are saying that they are feeling overwhelmed and AI is going to make it worse in some ways because of the sheer volume of content. I don't know about you, but my email box is overflowing and the content is brilliant. And so, and that's, that's some of the things that I try, you know, that I'm very focused on doing with the people that I work with and in our membership in the turbocharge hub that we've got, you know, that I'm curating what people, the information people get. So it's not this overwhelm of information, but it's actually what people need to be able to move the dial right, move forward and get things unstuck and get things moving in the organization. So I don't know if that was a very coherent answer, but I'm going.

To just go back.

These are the things I'm thinking about.

One part of the query there. Speaking of the prompts, I'm in the middle of a project to a new book that is a book about culture, interestingly enough. And what we, in research and in conversations with, with folks that lead companies, we ask the question, you know, what was it like for you to, to get through Covid? What was it? You know, what would you attribute the ability to get through it and get through it as successfully as you did and that kind of thing. And, and often people will point to their culture, they'll say it was a product, that we're here and we're succeeding because our culture was up for the, you know, up for that challenge at the time, which is amazing and thrilled to hear that. And then I'll say, and so what's it been like? What's the culture like today having come out of COVID Is it the same as it was before? And people will either grimace or they'll make change in their facial expression or something, but. And then often we'll say, no, our culture is, is quite a bit, feels different and is different than the culture that got us through the pandemic, is not necessarily the culture we came out of the pandemic with, or if it Is, anyway, the times have changed in that, you know, and so things, things. Things feel differently now. And I guess that's what I was wondering is whether you've seen any. Any change in how people are functioning as teams within an organization, as a culture, since the pandemic and whether there's been any. Any sort of notice of what, what it was like before and what it's like after.

Well, the biggest difference I notice is in, you know, the people that have the most resilience are the ones that clearly are, you know, the performing the best and are, you know, surging ahead in their career. You know, I have to say, Adam, I was. I was saying before. Before we started even putting the recorder on that I love your podcast because out of all of these podcasts and all this content that's out there, this avalanche, you seem to hone in on these exact techniques that people can find to build that resilience in them. And the one that specifically touched me was with, let me get his name right, Peter Niemann, who spoke about doing things better. It's about being better, not bitter. And I thought that's exactly right, because whether it's, you know, so I've. I've had a failed marriage. I could have come out incredibly bitter after, you know, my husband turned around to me after almost 30 years of being together and said to me, do you think we've got a good marriage? And I'm like, what? But, you know, I've gone on to, you know, it's a conscious decision to. For me to have pulled myself out of that and put myself into a better situation. I've gone online, I dated, I met this amazing man, and I've got this wonderful life, and I'm so lucky. But I'm also created that luck. You know, it's, it's. It's. And, you know, it's that better, not better. Same with people in the workplace after Covid, you know, and. And yes, we've all had, you know, a hard time, some people worse than others, but it's coming out of that and making that conscious decision. I just thought about from your book, you know, pause off. Choose, choose. Choose what future, you know, and that's what I did coming out of that marriage that didn't work, choosing to go back and create a life. And it's those people who've chosen coming out of COVID to. To do things that are going to, you know, that they're going to work not just for them, but also for the organization. I mean, sure, you can go and, you know, stick yourself at home for five days a week if other people are coming into the office. But is that, you know, you want to think about, well, what's best for the business and yourself, what, what, you know, maybe it's going into the office two or three days a week to. So, you know, to be there and have a presence and finding solutions, choosing solutions that are going to be win, win.

Yeah. It is a resilience skill set that you're describing and part of it. And I think for people, I have to say this is not quite a warning or a caveat, really. It's just more for clarification purposes. When we talk about resilience and when we bring the concept of operationalizing resilience to an organization, we're not talking about people that just have that greater capacity to burn the candle at every conceivable end. It's not just a euphemism for suck it up, but it is seen that way. As for a lot of people when they hear that term resilience, in fact, there's a medical institution which I will not name, where we were up for an engagement, and frankly, we didn't get this engagement. But in the course of a very transparent conversation where I was advocating for the kind of training that would allow people to develop resiliency skills before they need them. So not just resilience is the result of having come through something difficult and be stronger on the other end. That's. People get that. And again, that's more the old paradigm. This is about how you actually develop resiliency skills before you will need it next. Because the pandemic is one disruption that was chaotic for many and, and tragic for many and tremendously opportunistic for many as well. But there will be another and many more disruptions and many more changes, and some of them may even be that be greater in scope than the pandemic. Right. So, you know, the AI revolution, we're just getting started with the kind of change that is going to take hold. So it's developing this. This capacity before you will need it. And so to take that kind of a proactive approach is really powerful. It's very empowering to teams and to leaders. And frankly, I couldn't predict what the changes will be or the disruptions will be. And I would drive myself nuts trying to even prognosticate those things and be wrong more often than not. But what I can count on and what gives me certainty, and I'm a certainty freak, I'm a control nutrition as many of us are with.

How ironic, right?

Exactly. In the world of the greatest uncertainty, this is right. You crave it. But I know what I can count on is my resilience. That's the part I get. I can sleep well and feel confident because of that. So I'm having this conversation with this person that's running or you know, an executive director within this medical, this organization and she says to me, we can't use the word resilience. We have been told we can no longer use that word because what went on during the pandemic with this particular group of people was they were being told to be resilient, which they were being told really suck it up, suck it up, stop complaining, do what you have to do and we'll get to the other side, you know, together, you know, and all that. But, but just it's the strongest, the survive, you know, like it's a Darwinistic kind of a thing. And so she was just like, we can never talk. We can't use that word. People will tune out immediately, they will object and you know, et cetera, et cetera. So, so really appreciate you just brought that up and in the way that you did and which allowed for this clarification to occur as well. Is there something that you do personally for your own resilience? Is there something that you go to that is your. Because as you said, this, the Peter Nieman podcast, which I recommend people listen to. Dr. Nieman is man, I'll just say this. He, he lost, he lost a child to suicide who was a young adult, wasn't a child anymore. But any parent knows your, your 50 year old child is still your child. So it doesn't matter what their age is. Your child is your child. Yeah.

So I, I, I've got goosebumps on my arms as you're talking because he so moved me. I've sent it to a whole, a whole lot of different people I know who are very. Yeah. It will resonate with, for various reasons, lost a child, a friend who's. Yeah. Lost somebody's lost a friend. Yeah. Very, very, very moving and raw and you know, he was. Yeah. Yeah. And interesting how, you know, he contrasted him and his wife and how their different reactions to the situation and, and, and your discussion with him was just so, had so much empathy, Adam. It was beautiful for me. What works. I love nature. So I have a garden and I spend time in the garden. Yeah, that, that's for me is just, you know, if I need to solve something or an issue or yeah, Rejuvenate myself. I'm in the garden or going for a bush walk. That's the other thing I do. So, yeah, lots of those walks. After the marriage broke up, you know, after, you know, a project doesn't. You know, that project particularly had that, you know, that huge. It was really difficult time for me to have a project just fall apart like that. And it's just a bit of time to reflect on it, figure out what I could do differently. Acknowledge that irrespective of the situation, it seems like, well, we're not in control of everything. Right. So other people are gonna. Yeah, other people are gonna do things and. But we are in control of our own response. Yes. Yeah. And so thinking about that. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I would love to close. Close with this too. Just because you are. You live in Sydney, but you're from South Africa. And I. We've had a number of people from South Africa that have been on the show, including somebody that. That had a quite a moving story to tell about her experience with apartheid when she was living there during that period. But one. One of the things that. That I've. I've thought a lot about when it comes to Nelson Mandela and his. His life, his situation, which was, you know, this is like the. The scope and the breath. I don't even. I don't have words for it. But to people that don't already know this, he. He spent 27 or 28 years in prison in a cell, in a tiny little cell and all that, and then emerged to. To take on a role, a leadership role and a transformative role and a liberation role. But all the while, he could have perished, you know, at any point along the way while he was in prison. Certainly all hope could have been completely lost to the. To the depth of that restriction. His literal freedom to move, to do anything really was taken away from him. That's what prison can do. And that's obvious. But what's not obvious and what I've been thinking about is that his captors, his. His. Those that imprisoned him could not take away his right to think that freedom could. Could not be taken from him and was not taken from him. And. And that's what I think you're saying is that, you know, regardless of the situations that we find ourselves in, and much. Much of what we find ourselves in, you know, on one level, we can't control on an. On another level, and this is hard to swallow, sometimes we've contributed, contribution created or contributed to consciously, unconsciously, whatever the case is. But these Difficult times that we, you know, find ourselves in. The one thing in the midst of any of it that no one can ever take and that we can actually truly count on is. Is our capacity to think. That is our greatest freedom. And it is. And it is. It is. Absolutely. It is. Again, a certainty in an uncertain world that is truly our greatest certainty.

Absolutely. And I was just looking up while you were talking, I just pulled up one of my LinkedIns because I post regularly on Nelson Mandela because of the values that he has. And so I'd love to read you one of the quotes that he. And he's got so many amazing leadership quotes about positivity and resilience. And so I would love to read this one to you, if I may, which is exactly talking to your point, Adam. So, as you said, you know, all these years in a cell that's like 52ft, big hard labor. This is, you know, somebody who is a lawyer by background, and he says, don't judge me by my success. Judge me by how many times I fell down and got back up again.

It's been an absolute pleasure to get to know you on a podcast, to have this conversation and be, you know, real with one another, even in the. In the. This sort of a false. You know, when you think about it, it's. It's a kind of a canned and constructed and contrived environment, the podcast. Right. Because we know that other people are listening to this now and all that kind of thing. And yet what I love about doing podcasts is how quickly and how accessible we are to one can be to one another, so that you can genuinely have a connection and have a real conversation that other people get to also participate in through their listening, et cetera, or sharing. So thank you for that. I really appreciate it.

It's been absolute pleasure, Adam. Thank you. I've loved every minute of it.

Wonderful. And just as, as Lisa had said, if this is an episode, if there are things that went, you know, where we went today, that would be valuable to people that, you know, colleagues, friends, family members, etc. I'm asking my. The community of listeners, share it, Share it with somebody, because that's how the word of this gets spread as well as the. Does something positive with the algorithm, which I can't control. But we all have the same goal in this, and that is that. That it is creating a ripple effect. And, and so let's. Let's help the algorithm to help that happen. And when we know that there's somebody also that just might benefit, let's not be. Take that extra second to take a, you know, copy a link and paste it in a, in a text or an email and say, hey, give this, give this a listen. You know, that kind of thing. I do that all the time. I love it when people do that for me as well. So, Lisa, thank you so much today. Thank you. To our beautiful community that is ever growing and it's a joy as always. Ciao for now, everybody. Well, as promised, from the moment that I turn on the recording, I just knew that the discussion with Lisa was going to be something interesting and special and that we would follow the breadcrumbs and they would lead in a beautiful place. And they have again, as I've come to trust in this process in that way. But, but Lisa, really, she showed up and contributed and was transparent and vulnerable and thought provoking and just all of that, that makes for a great guest and a great conversation. Primarily that, that's what makes for a great guest, is that we have a, a real conversation and a connected experience. And I could feel that. And I just really enjoyed her presence. I'm sure that you all did as well. We talked about some really cool things that I think will be fodder for future thought. Whether that thought is happening and is percolating right now for you, or whether it's something that you're going to come back to or having taken some notes perhaps, that you'll bring to your leadership and look at where it is that, that something different might be possible. You know, organizations and organisms in nature, as we talked about, are either growing or they're decaying. So that process of growth has to be ever present. And how you cultivate continuous growth, continuous improvement, that is truly the secret sauce, if there is any. And so there are a lot of things that we discussed today that I think could be the catalyst for that next phase stage of conversation that leads to growth down the road for you all. So if you're in a role as a leader or you're even working in someone else's, you know, working in a, in a, in a role where, where you're not maybe so much a driver of change, you could still potentially be that person that is a catalyst for change. In fact, not even potentially, I know that to be the case personally, and I've seen it in many organizations that we've worked with. And if you are one of those people that can be a champion for change and a driver of change. Today we talked about what good culture looks like. We talked about what culture that is having challenges. Looks like we've talked about where it is that sort of change management has its roots and where it can get really stymied and stopped and where that process of evolution can be actively opposed. Oppositional culture was the, was the term that that was used for that. And I certainly loved our conversation today that got quite personal around becoming better, not bitter and the focus on and how we integrate life's experiences and bring together the strands of those experiences in our daily lives to find a center and to find that place where we are growing and growing in our way of looking at things, growing and becoming more resilient before that growth or that resilience is needed or called out of us. Meaning we don't wait for the for the disruption. We don't wait for the tragedy. We don't wait for the for the the change to be thrust upon us. But rather we're proactively working at developing those skills of resilience mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually speaking before things are hitting the fan, so to speak. So again, love the conversation with Lisa today. If you did as well, please leave us a comment. Share a review on the platform that you are consuming this podcast, share it with a friend or a colleague, family member, et cetera. And of course, feel free to take your own assessment to determine just about how you're doing in this snapshot in time. How resilient mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually are you at this moment? Rankby resilience.com it's simple, rank. My resilience.com is there for you to do that at any point. Use it with your teams, use it with members of your, of your, of your family. Even just the insights are truly remarkable. And it takes just three minutes. And that's probably the best part, is that we can get to something real and true and useful in just so short a period of time. And not that anybody's looking to, you know, have another survey to take, but this one is so simple and it is so insightful that that's why I recommend it every chance I get. So for now anyway, I will just once again say thank you so much for being a part of this beautiful and growing community and we appreciate you very much. Ciao for now, everybody have a beautiful and a blessed rest of your day or evening, wherever we're finding you at this time.

Thanks for listening everyone.

We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build resilience.

And become change proof.

Help us inspire others by sharing this episode and leaving your comments over@adammarkel.com podcast for more resilience tips and strategies, including support for building change proof teams, visit AdamMarkel.com BecomeChangeproof.