Breaking Away From The Grip Of Burnout With Dr. Darria Long Gillespie

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markell and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change.

Proof.

Okay, Today we've got Dr. Daria Long on the Change Proof podcast. She is a Harvard and Yale trained emergency physician, regular health expert on cnn, NBC and Netflix, and nationally best selling author as a widely viewed TEDx talk called Ending the Crazy Busy. She's also a mom of two, a clinical assistant professor at the University of Tennessee, and the founder of Truv.com and the burnout Style Study in Women. You're going to absolutely love today's podcast, so sit back and enjoy. Okay, Dr. Daria, you heard your bio. There's a lot in that. You really have committed so much of your life to the work that you do and you've been in academia, but you've done so many things and it really is, it's one of the more, I don't want to say impressive, it's like highfalutin kind of word, but it is, it's an impressive bio and there's a lot there and probably the most important of which is that you're a mommy and all that. But I want to ask you the question that I always start these things out, which is what's one thing, just one thing that's not part of that standard intro or bio that you would love for people to know about you? Ooh.

I mean, especially hi, Adam, when you.

Start off with highfalutin, I mean, darling, flattery will get you everywhere.

I think one of the most defining.

Things is my experience as a patient over the last two years and really, really starting out in that I seeing, you know, I've been a physician for.

Years and I've been a patient. We've all been a patient.

I've had babies and done things like that. But it wasn't until I had a really kind of terrifying medical and going through that, going through that vulnerability, it really honed and helped me find what I wanted to do with my life and with my work.

So I know I'd probably get like hate mail or something or would never get hate mail. But you know, it would be comments for sure if I didn't. Now follow that, that breadcrumb right there. Follow that lead. So. Yeah. What do you mean? What are you talking about?

I mean, if you're gonna get hate Mail. We can do lots of things to get.

You hate mail, Adam.

But so you know what?

I probably wouldn't have to try as hard as I think.

Could have fun with it. So here's what happened. I'd always been super healthy. I'd been a runner. Ran, you know, did my three miles.

Pretty much every day. You know, maybe a half marathon here or there. It wasn't super intense. But I got really sick in February of 2020. And then somewhere in that fall, I don't even remember, which shows kind of how much I was ignoring my own body. I would be running, and I would have these episodes where I suddenly would have chest pain, lightness of shortness of breath, and lightheaded so bad that I couldn't stand. Keep standing up. I couldn't keep running. I'd have to sit down, and I would sit down and wait about 30 seconds. The symptoms would go away, and I.

Would get back up and keep going because I had things to do, and.

I needed to finish my run before my kids woke up and all the other stuff. I didn't have a watch at the. Like, a smartwatch at the time because I was so consistent with my runs. I just didn't really bother. And I. As an ER doctor, I was like.

Oh, it's probably some benign svt. It's one of these things. Not a big deal. You know, I'm deconditioned from COVID We've all been in lockdown.

Not a big deal. It started to happen more and more. Um, and I was actually working with a digital health company, consulting them, and got to the point that was happening daily. So I got a little monitor, and December 30th of 2020, I am. It's like 4pm I'm at home by myself in the basement. My kids are playing in the bounce house, which is, you know, what they usually do when I run and my monitor arrives. Okay, I'm gonna get it to work and see what this is. I'm gonna get some answers. You know, this is kind of an.

Interesting experiment on myself, you know, kind of love biohacking. Get the monitor and symptoms. I run symptoms come on. I sit down and get.

And I see that my heart rate was 270. And it's actually in something called ventricular tachycardia, which you don't have to be a doctor to know what that is. If you've watched Grey's Anatomy, it's usually when they start yelling code blue.

Because, you know, the heart rate normal. Yeah, exactly.

It's usually typically followed by the pads, often the cardioverter pads. And so, except I'm at home alone in the basement with my kids, and suddenly all the things I had explained to myself about what this was, all the potentially benign causes, you know, as an ER doctor, I actually never had a patient with that heart rate who had been sitting there talking to me. And I knew that there was no benign cause. So I called my cardiologist, a friend, and I said, I. I'm in ventricular tachycardia. They didn't believe me.

They were not near. They're like, okay, okay, all right. And so I sent the.

Sent the EKG that I just gotten to them, and they called back in about eight seconds. So that began the next 14 months of doctor's visits, second opinions, trips to Johns Hopkins, in Cleveland Clinic, a time when, you know, having to wear a life vest, which is one of those defibrillator vests for six weeks, and having to wear that through the Atlanta airport.

And it going off in the Atlanta airport. When I went into VTAC again in the Atlanta airport, me sitting there with wires strapped to my chest and a battery pack that's now sirening because I'm now in vtac and I'm anxiously trying to pull out the battery because I didn't want it to shock me and I didn't want the TSA agents running.

At me to shoot me and getting shocked on the side of the highway one night coming home from the ER and nobody really knowing what was causing, was causing it.

So that experience led me in a.

Couple of different ways, and I will. We'll get into that. It led me to do that vulnerability of being a patient, and suddenly, you know, previously I'd seen, you know, my patients go for things, and I say.

There'S not data behind that. Don't waste your time. But when somebody is telling you we.

Have to talk about heart transplants, then you're going to go. I realized why you will go to.

Any extreme, to any woo, anything you.

Can find to find answers. And I went down that track. And it made me really mad at what gets peddled to people when they're at their most vulnerable. It led me to my work that I do in stress and burnout, and it led me to part of that work also in, like, meaning, how do we come through these moments of uncertainty and how do we survive them?

How do we make ourselves?

You know, you talk about change proof, I talk about shatterproof, so we can come through that without it breaking us.

Oh, My goodness. Well, there's so. There's so many inroads. And I want to continue to talk about for the moment anyway, what it was like for you to be a patient. I'm kind of. It's reminiscent of a book years ago called My Stroke of Insight, which probably have read or folks.

Yeah.

Out there, if you haven't read that book. Jill Bolte Taylor is the author. She was a researcher and a doctor and she studied. She was a brain researcher and she was experiencing a stroke. She was having a stroke and was conscious of what was happening and going on the same way that you were. And you know, again, same thing. People around would be like, no, that can't possibly be the case. You couldn't.

Right.

Having this conversation with me, reaching out to me calling or anything, you know, if that's what was happening. But she was. And she gained.

She has a TED Talk on it too for your audience who just wants.

An easier inroad to hear her content.

Yeah. And the book is brilliant, by the way. So not, not every book that's sort of in that space, you know, can be if it's, you know, like too scientific or it's too woo woo. Right. You know, this one really hits. Hits the mark in the middle quite well. So what was it like for you to be a patient? I mean you, you sort of shared that there was a level of. And compassion, perhaps even that maybe didn't exist in the same way before you became the patient. Is that right?

Yeah, I mean, yes, I think that.

Was level of understanding of what it feels when you're at that rock bottom. I think I also learned. I've always tried to be really empathetic towards my patients. But you learn even more the value of words.

So you were a doctor with bedside manner. A rare thing.

I tried to be, yeah. That's the goal.

But then even more the value of.

Words and realizing my diagnosis also the.

Uncertain and that when you don't have a, you know, you will do anything just to get some answers. And I also realized how much as my physicians also wanted to give me certain answers even though when they did not exactly know and it wasn't from a malicious standpoint, but sometimes they didn't know. And as a patient, sometimes I realized it was very hard.

But you had to hear what people.

Were saying and then distill it even further and say this one is when you have second and third opinions. That's what I also realize a challenge of that you have one doctor saying this, another saying the other. Both really smart people. And how do you, you digest this and how do you not internalize it but actually keep moving forward? And that's hard as a physician, I think even, even harder as a patient.

So it really made me as a.

As a physician now, when my patients are going through things, trying to help them understand not just the facts, but when there's some duality to it, how do we weigh that together? Because that's part of the hardest part and that's part of the art and science of medicine.

Yeah. I mean, and you're a TED speaker as well, correct?

Yes, I am. Mine was on ending the crazy busy and how not to feel crazy busy, how not to use that word phrase in your vernacular.

No kidding. So do you. I haven't seen your TED Talk. I will. And so, but I'm asking this, is that this story a part of that TED Talk?

Well, no, because that TED talk was.

In 2019, I believe, and this happened New Year's Eve of December 2020. So no, this is not a part of that.

Got it.

So this experience, I like to keep things dramatic afterward.

Yeah. So if you were now delivering a TED Talk and this was going to be included this experience, is there a through line from that experience that would be the essence of your TED Talk? Tough question, but I'm putting you on the spot.

Wow.

I like how you were like, hey, come up with a new TED Talk line. Go.

Exactly, please.

I think what it was, it is the living with the uncertainty and how.

You live with the uncertainty, how you find meaning amidst it, and particularly how you flex that muscle of living in uncertainty. You know, it's very easy sometimes.

You like? I just want an answer. Yeah, I just want to know what this is.

And we try to rush because it's so uncomfortable to feel so uncertain. And the challenge is learning to live within that. I think also I would bring in something that we actually studied in the burnout study in women, which I know.

We'Ll talk about the burnout setting women a little bit, but one of the.

Things that's most important was the factor called coherence. Now you do a ton on resiliency and resilience in building that coherence is slightly different and you know, kind of explaining it. I'm sure you know of Viktor Frankl and his book Man Search for Meaning. And for any of your audience that's not familiar with it, go read the book. It'll be, you'll have every page dog eared in there. But he looked specifically at, he himself had survived the concentration camp. And he looked at people who also survived.

And he found that those who were most optimistic and hopeful about survival and being about being rescued were not the.

Ones that did the best and survived the concentration camps. It was the ones who had a sense of meaning. And actually what's become this factor known as coherence. And coherence is kind of three factors. How, what do you make sense of what's happening in your life? You know, what's the story you tell about it? Number two is what is the degree of manageability, control or agency you have?

And number three is what is the.

Meaning you give to it? And that sense of coherence, how we look at the world, was what Frankel found. They survived. And we also survived concentration camps. And then in the burnout study in women, we found that when you look at burnout, women with higher degrees of optimism did not protect them about against burnout. It was their higher degree of coherence that was more predictive and more preventative against burnout.

It makes sense. I mean, Frankel's meaning therapy was really born out of that experience, but even was being incubated while he was a prisoner and he was thinking, I mean, it's hard to even put yourself in that situation. We could imagine this, but people are dying all around him. And the likelihood of him dying in that camp was very, very high, almost 100%.

Right.

But, but he's thinking about how this experience is going to be something he will be able to use and help people with afterward. So this ability to look beyond the immediacy, the circumstances as they were. And what's interesting to me in connection with what you said earlier, is that that's in some capacity looking beyond the unce. And again, this is not Viktor Frankl's work. It's not part of, it may be part of what you're describing as coherence, but it's almost like you leapfrog. Not living with Pandora, you know, with the Pollyanna glasses or something, you know, this constant, everything is always good. Toxic positivity, as it's sometimes, you know, referred to these days. But just being able to leapfrog outside of that uncertainty, almost like rising sort of, you know, when a plane goes above the cloud line and you think, well, it's a cloudy day and there's no sun. And yet as soon as you, you know, I travel a lot. As soon as you hit that level above the clouds, the sun returned. Just, just to know that that's the truth, that's a fact. The sun didn't go away, clouds moved in and temporarily obscure your view of this. That's the truth. Not optimism, not, you know, bs. That's just the truth of it. But when we're so locked in the moment that all we can actually experience is the clouds, and the clouds being that I cannot see, things are uncertain. It really can be quite debilitating.

Yeah. And just an example for that. That was one of the things that.

Kept me through when we were. When I was at these points of.

Heart transplant conversations, which, as a note, as Dr. Anybody, Dr. Out there watching, never have that conversation of, you know, we just want to make sure that you understand that our heart transplants in the future. I know. And I think one of the things.

I learned from that is, one is think, where is the meaning?

If I don't find some meaning in.

This, I'm going to lose my mind.

Right.

And I have to. And then secondly, is the agency, which.

Is one of those. Your sense of control. And one night I was just, you know, right after the early. When they were trying to figure out what's going on, it was kind of wallowing. You know, there's the why me? Or what did I do wrong to deserve this?

All of that.

I was washing my face one night, and suddenly it kind of hit me. I was like, wait, I'm sitting here crying.

I know the top people at all the top institutions. I spent the last 48 hours not messaging them because I've been too busy crying. Like, I have stuff I can do here. But it's so easy.

I mean, it is human nature to. You get this awful news and you want to do the one. But as soon as you realize I have agency, as soon as you can figure out just that one thing, it helps you lift your eyes above the cloud.

So it's not just, like you mentioned.

An optimistic Pollyanna vision of looking above the clouds, of what's one thing I can do? Where's my agency right now?

Yes. And so what was your agency then? What did you seize upon that at that moment?

It was, who are the five people.

I can reach out to right now who can get me a second opinion.

Here and can help me get more.

Information of figuring out this diagnosis of what's going on?

Got it. So again, if we're TED Talk, I don't want to spoil the. Spoil the TED Talk before it's happened, because it might just happen. Right. Did you end up getting a heart transplant?

No. So I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna spoil it.

No.

I Have it's just for us here.

It was just amongst friends and all your listeners. I will say it because I'm so.

Grateful for the work of Clip clinic. I had a nine hour ablation procedure and procedure and with five different attending the Cleveland Clinic and it just the best people in the world and from you know.

So yeah so actually right before this video that's why I was trying to.

Figure making sure we needed to be.

On camera because I went for a.

Little walk jog beforehand because I just.

Didn'T want more caffeine. I was like I need to wake up. And so yeah, so it's different.

I'm not gonna be doing any more marathons. Probably not in my future but you know, so. And modifications but yeah back to like finding that joy and being able to move and moving forward.

So I'm going to ask you a question and I so appreciate that Dr. Daria that, that you would spoil or do the spoiler alert with us. So now we know at least that it. It's the story. Right. I want to ask you about the mind body connection and I think if I was going to ask any number of doctors that question they'd probably cringe. Maybe they wouldn't show it. But on the inside of you I love this. What is he about to do? Right. Yeah, let's get into it. I. I've been reading a book by Dr. John Sarno which massive bestseller years ago. I think it came out in 1991. It's been reissued a lot of times called Healing Healing Back Pain. And it's in many ways it's a book about his research and his and he's a medical doctor and he's thousands of patients where they came to him with back pain and other pains. But primarily it was a study about folks with those, those issues with their back. And I think a lot of people listening to this are watching this right now. Go can only just heal, heal my lower back or my sciatica or if I could just not ever get another back spasm in my life I'd be, you know, I'd give away, I'd give away a lot of money if I could just guarantee that. Right. And his whole piece of this has to do with the mind body connection as an answer to this, to this back issue. It sounds like your heart and I didn't know where this was all leading. I want to quickly parenthetically say I went to get my phys physical 56 months ago and I hadn't had one through Covid. So it's the first time I've been in there and doctors said to me, you're in great shape, all that, but your heart rate's a little low. I think you should go at your age, just go see a heart guy, you know, a cardiologist. And I was like 55 or 56, heart rate, and really long story short, I wore a heart monitor, I got a CT scan in my heart, all that kind of stuff just to be sure. And in the end, all is great above, better than normal is what they said, you know, no, I don't know, magnesium or calcium or something and you know, like all the parts of working good. But I live also with that little bit of uncertainty for several weeks about what is, like, what's really going on. I've been athletic my whole life and my heart's always, you know, am I just super calm? Like, I don't know. I was pretty much type A personality lawyer for so many years, yada yada. So I was living with that bit of uncertainty and whatnot. And I was managing my thoughts and managing on some level, even my emotional reaction to that uncertainty while that was going on, as well as, you know, with people around me and who knew and you know, my wife and others. But so I want to, I want to get back to this mind body connection because mine turned out to not be structural, but we were just concerned and you know, go out and get the test and all that kind of stuff. Yours was a structural thing. You did require surgery to fix something inside. What's your thoughts? It's very broad question. What's. What's your thoughts on the mind body connection as to what you.

I love it. And I want to just go back.

To one thing you said a minute ago that most doctors might, might cringe.

When asked about the mind body connection.

It's interesting. Part of what I do as, you know, my own platform and then, you know, recently launching Truv.com kind of just systematizing more of what I do of really bringing truth back to the information people hear, making it actionable and giving you peace of mind is I launched it because, you know, having been this.

Patient, having seen this woo and realizing why at times you're really vulnerable and not, not that everything is woo, but seeing how we, we will go to any source.

When you're really desperate and talking to some really smart female friends who said.

Okay, my doctors talk about this stuff over here, you know, there's these other sites I find I will not name their names that talk about wellness and.

Lifestyle and have zero science behind them.

There's nothing in the middle. And I had questions about this stuff in the middle, but nobody's talking about it. So I went over here because nobody else is talking about it.

And that's why I thought, you know what, we can talk about it. I can talk about that.

I look at evidence on a daily basis and I know these top experts across all the aspects and I think there's truth amongst all of it.

You know, you can find grains of truth and all of it.

So let's, let's go there, there. Let's answer those questions that are keeping.

Women up at night and men too.

Particularly about their wellness and their health.

And with the evidence. Let's go there.

So I'm glad that you asked that because I love this kind of stuff and I think that the evidence is.

Incontrovertible at this point that there is a connection, a mind body connection. And it goes both ways. Anatomically, you have your sympathetic nervous system, which is your fight or flight, and how that, that doesn't just make your muscles run quickly. That changes how your gut is working. That changes what your bladder is doing. It changes your reproductive hormone. Because we're not made to be, you.

Know, having a lot of babies when we're currently being chased by tigers.

So anatomically that exists. Parasympathetic nervous system. We know, you know, how it affects our gut functions and then how our gut and our microbiome and what we.

Eat and the things we put in our body, how it then affects our.

Stress levels and our mental health. So income uncontrovertible.

Absolutely. Is it the only thing could I cure myself with? Could I cure my heart by thinking it?

So.

No. And I think that sometimes people like to go into camps because it's easier to make them there to be sound.

Bites when you go into an extreme camp.

So there are things that are independent.

Of the mind body connection that we can have as problems. But yes, I think the mind body connection is absolutely a key component of any condition. And it's something we always have to consider, whether we're talking about anxiety or diabetes. It's not something we can ignore anymore.

Yeah, and, and it's also, it's interesting because I think a lot of people are. Have sort of some sort of pain or, or whether it's intermittent or it's chr. That kind of thing. So for me, I'll just use myself as an example as opposed to generalizing. I've had some challenges with my back at times and some Problems with a knee that lasted about a year and a shoulder thing that lasted about a year that came and then went. I had some sort of blotchiness on my skin at a certain point that would come and go and, and I started to only recently really think and not just think, but sit with the idea that I've been great at coping. I'm, you know, wrote a book called Pivot, which is a book about how you cope with. And this latest book, Change Proof, is a book about how you cope with uncertainty and vast amounts of change and unending change and things like that. But on some level, being a great coper is not. There's, there's, you still pay a price for that. And so what I've been sitting with is the idea that sometimes our bodies, our bodies are great at defending us from feeling the kind of things that are really uncomfortable. As you said, sitting in that uncertainty is super uncomfortable. And we will do almost anything thing to get out of it, no matter what that is, even if it's reaching for that the quickest, you know, answer that we want to hear or something else. But, but that the feelings that we have are difficult to deal with. And we learn from very early on in our lives, sometimes even from our parents example and examples elsewhere, that it's just better not to feel certain things and just move on, get on with stuff. And so we, we suppress those feelings. And I guess my question to you is, do you, in your experience and what your belief system is today, do you believe that some element of our physical challenges in life, aches and pains and that kind of stuff is the result of our suppressed emotions? The stuff that we've just sort of routinely pressed down so we can be better copers and more successful. Right. Perfectionists and achievers of all kinds have all these physical problems that sometimes they think is, you know, I injured myself or you know, there's degeneration in my spine or in a disc or some other stuff like that, when it, when in essence, the root cause of it is not dealing with our own emotions. What do you think of that?

Doctor, Such a great question. Here's my thing.

I think that when you have those in some people, it might be suppressed.

Emotions could be, or it could simply.

Be suppressing your response.

You have pain somewhere, you have a headache, you're exhausted, and you think, I just have to push through.

So again, you're suppressing your response.

And it's just a physiological example. We have patients that could be in sepsis, in septic shock or shock for many number reasons. And we give them adrenaline, so we give them epinephrine, we give them norepinephrine.

We give them all these things. Eventually you get to a point that.

You are give them, giving them the max dose of epinephrine.

You've given them the max dose of norepinephrine. You are flogging their receptors, but their.

Receptors are so saturated, can't do anymore.

And sometimes we have this mentality on.

Bringing it back to lifestyle that you.

Know, I'm exhausted, let me just take some more caffeine. Let me just burn that midnight oil. Let me just keep logging. And you get to the point, you know, there's a book saying the body.

Called the body keeps score. You get to a point that your.

Body, body you, you cannot do. Your receptors are full, you cannot keep.

Saturating them so you cannot keep pushing and you have to come back.

And I think it is when we.

Talk about not using crazy busy or solutions from the burn from burnout with the burnout setting women, the solution is not to, not that that slugging is.

Not to say let's do less.

Let's you know, let's all run off to an ashram and just like leave our lives behind. It is to say, okay, how do we compete? How do we do the things that we actually want while weeding out the other things that are forcing us us to, to slog, whether that is actual tactical things that we're doing or kind of mentally how we're looking at it.

Yeah, I, I mean I love another TED speaker who's got a very successful TED talk. We should all have as many views on our TED talks as, as Angela Duckworth, right?

Oh yeah.

And I do love her work and it's a great talk. And yet I routinely, I guess I do this fairly often now take exception to this idea that, that we should be gritty and grit is our, is our answer to resilience. I push back on that quite a bit these days because I feel like that's while that may have been even what would have, would have created more, more opportunity for success before the pandemic. And I don't believe that. I think it really is a last century paradigm and this current century millennials and Gen Z's are telling us, have been telling us, telling this to us for a long time. And we have, Randy and I, my wife and I, we have four kids in that age in those demographics as well. We've been seeing it, you know, that they don't, they don't buy into that. And that's not because they're lazy. That's not because they don't have passion for life or want to do great things or, or aren't willing to work hard, as some people have suggested. It's. It's that they actually intuitively understand that that grit or that grind or that slogging, that is the method that you get things done in the world that, that's a broken paradigm and it's not sustainable. And it will never lead to sustainable resilience either. It sounds to me like your study of women in burnout has come to similar conclusions. Maybe. Will you tell us about the, the, the burnout study among women? I'm very curious.

Yeah, absolutely. So, and where this came from was. So I launched true, which is, you know, when there are questions that keep.

Us awake at night, we put a data, data driven guidance behind them lens to them. We're looking at all sources and we make it actionable to give you peace of mind to get back to your life. And so I wanted to write an article on burnout, realized that there was.

Lots of anecdotes about people being miserable.

And I said, well, okay, great, but.

What do we do about this? And there wasn't a lot of actionable data.

So it was one of those examples of the universe coming together. I found these really amazing researchers who do institutional burnout, looking at physicians and then now looking at individuals partnered with Good Housekeeping as our media partner. Which is kind of one of the things we do now is we identify the researchers, the media partners, then we bring in the funding as well. And then Luna Bar and computers for.

Kids came on as corporate funding. So again, everything just came together in.

This beautiful ecosystem and had, you know, 4,000 plus women take this 30 minute academic study. It's the first large scale study of burnout in women since COVID looking not.

So much at how bad it is.

Because we know it. You didn't need enough study to tell people that they're feeling burned out. But looking at why and what can we do about it.

So one of the things we looked.

At was a new, we can develop a new framework. We call it the do it all discrepancy.

And it is, it gets the fact.

That 82% of our respondents said they felt they should be able to do it all and 7% said they felt that they actually could. And yes, we are going to go.

And talk to those 7%. I want to know what their special.

Sauce is and what's working for them.

But that delta the gap. And I know you talk about a.

Gap in a slightly different way, but it is the gap.

What is driving my One person's burnout.

May be different from somebody else's, but what is universal is that gap between your feeling that you what you should be able to your ideal and what you have the resources to do. That gap we found is directly predictive of burnout. Burnout, anxiety, depression, number things, but specifically burnout for this study. And, and I think where millennials are getting at and under starting to understand a Gen Z even better is in that shoulds list we have the very real things which also are becoming more complex work that you might have to do, which now is becoming 247 childcare.

Which is always getting more complex and health and all these things have become more complicated. And on top of that is like.

This idealized stuff that not only is it enough, you know, speaking to working moms for those people, but you can extrapolate this to every audience.

Not only is it enough to be.

A working mom, but are you also when you cook, are you baking them.

Organic cakes made out of oats that.

You grew in your own backyard and.

Are they in travel soccer at the age of 3 and is Pele one of their coaches? And while you're doing get back to.

I don't you think all women and all moms just because we're talking about women at the moment, shouldn't they all be growing their own food? Don't you think that everything they put in their kids mouth should be something that they sourced from the. I do it.

Yes, regularly in my garden where I.

Also grow the up yours. For anybody who asks me to do that.

The up yours is a great crop.

Don't you think we all need a little more up yours in our croppage?

Absolutely.

And it's just in of course with perfect hair. And we're seeing this because we're seeing.

It on social media all the time.

And well over 60% of women we surveyed pair themselves against somebody who they.

Think is doing it all.

So we wanted to get at all of that, all of that on that.

Is that okay?

Yes, yes.

You know what else we are species. I, you know, like I get to. I just. That's what I want to say about that.

Yeah.

It's a male perspective is.

Yes. But the degree.

Well, when you want to be perfect. Right. And this is male. This is not gender related when you want to be perfect. And that's personality trait. Like we don't have to try to unravel that. But you just, you grow up wanting to be liked, you want to please people, you want to do things perfectly, you want to achieve. Right. There's nothing wrong with that, but the pressure of that and the feelings that it produces, which sometimes subconsciously we don't even realize that we feel anxious about it or, or resentful of our children or of these things, or angry even about this.

Yes, a hundred percent.

And it's, it's subconscious. And I was talking to somebody who was one of the early, top, early.

Five employees at one of the big social media platforms, and he said, I realized when they had as many neuroscientists about how to make this algorithm sticky as they had coders that we were going to be changing how we use technology. So that when I realized they were, they were, they were building this to make it addictive. And what we found also is that women's most top two emotions they felt after being on social media were worry and envy.

Wow.

Way below where happiness, optimism, pride. And that again, was directly tied to, to burnout.

And it's because we are, we as.

A species are driven to compare, you know, to, to look around us. But social media makes that universe against which we compare ourselves so much more prevalent. We can compare against everybody.

And you also see only the snippet.

You see the perfect looking image.

Magazine covers and airbrush.

Yeah.

Started that long before social media. Not to take them off the hook at all, but we've been trying to tell people of all kinds and all shapes and sizes what they should do, what they should look like.

Right.

How they should behave. Forever.

Yes, forever.

It's just, it's now, it's 247 now.

You have no, no place to retreat from it, really. I mean, you do, but who's gonna, who's gonna take. I mean, I ask our people this all the time because we're, we're, as you said, this is constant cognitive arousal for us and we can't go anywhere with it. I ask audiences all the time during my key. I used to say it as a joke, but I go, how many of you go to bed with this thing at night? And you know what it's like 40% of the audience now raises their hands. Honestly.

They do, yes. Yes.

So there is some really interesting. So when I talk about, you know, burnout and all these things, we talk.

About the philosophical things, uncertainty and coherence and things.

But then we talk tactical. And one of the things is having a moment to disconnect. When you look at the research of.

Recovery and there's you know, five multiple recovery experience. But one of the things is having that disconnection, turning off that hyper vigilance.

And not just saying I'm in between checking emails, no, no, literally sending it.

Away, saying for this hour I'm not picking it up, I'm not looking at it.

And that's key because another part of.

Is what I talk about is micro recoveries. We are up here in our sympathetic nervous system fight or flight response all the time. Our body's not made to do that. We're made to cycle between sympathetic and parasympathetic. So having those moments where you drop down and you cycle back down, breathe your parasympathetic nerves, which is your and digest system becomes predominant for a period. So these little micro recoveries when you're dropping down and that includes setting down your phone and having those moments. Even if for those people watching who can't do it for an hour, do it for five minutes, go to the bathroom without your phone, Just do that, just go to bathroom there, see what happens. Because our brain needs to digest. And if our brain doesn't have time to digest with quiet moments, then it's always chattering. That's why we can't sleep at night, because we lay down. It's the first time we have quiet and our brain is going to digest.

So five minutes. I challenge all of your audience. I'd like anybody to message me if they did not pick up their phone.

When they went to the bathroom. Sign.

Yes, I'm sure I'll get some great comments from that one.

And you know what? It's another one of those things that's so simple. We, our research is very similar in this respect that resilience is not about endurance. Again, it's not the grit model. It's in all due respect to, to folks that have, have been talking about how important it is that you grind and you should be doing, you know, your side hustle, hustle from 7pm until 1am I just. Nonsense. Because when we're depleted, everything suffers. Mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, everything. It's literally the lower, the lower tide lowers everything and the raising of the tide raises everything. And the way you raise the tide is actually in the word that you just, that you shared with us, which is it's a recovery. It's, it's not about how we endure, it's about how we restore. And restoration is its own unique, its own art and its own science. And it is a combination of both art and science really is it's such a holistic practice. So even if you just decided at the beginning of the day, again, these people that have the phone either in their bed with them or next to them, because it's so easy to start your day immediately by engaging with this, whether it's to you turn off the alarm clock. I get it. Some people are, there's still, you know, you could still get a wind up alarm clock, right? You can still get the one that I have.

I don't have a wind up alarm clock but I have a non phone.

A lot. I have of a lot light up alarm clock is what I have.

Do you think it's that, you know when the, when the lights would go out and the power would go out and the thing would blink that people got so annoyed with how to figure out how to get it to stop blinking that they just got rid of those entirely. Right.

But you know there's a new invention.

Adam, it's called the battery. And they just stick a battery.

It's really, really exciting. You just need two double A's.

Just. I'll send you some 10 minutes at.

The beginning of the day. Not looking at your phone because when you pick this thing up it's always going to be someone else's agenda. And I'm not saying it's terrible or bad, whatever. I mean I'm picking up the phone right now and you could see on the, you know, if you're watching this on YouTube, you can see this beautiful picture of that little.

It's so cute.

Yeah, that's our, our little Nakoa. And I just think as soon as I look at this, text messages, email or even the news or whatever else is showing up on my phone, it's other people's agenda at the start of the day. It's so important that you begin in, in a, in a place where, where you're make your determination normative of your, your thoughts at the start, your feelings and how you're even engaging with your feelings or engaging with the stuff that you processed while sleeping. Because so much of what's going on for us is only first, you know, those, those suppressed or repressed feelings come out during our sleep. That's what dreams are so good for, the allegories of those dreams. So it's a simple thing. Like you said, don't take the phone to the bathroom with you. Start your day maybe the first 10 minutes that you're tech free. That's a simple small toggle. Love that solution. Yeah, I want to know a little bit more Too if you could about how you're currently utilizing the information from that study. Because we've, it's funny, the numbers are similar. We have a resilience assessment tool that we deployed a few years ago and, and it's gotten really popular because it takes three minutes which is remarkable. Sixteen questions. And we've come to understand some things that, that you and I can trade a little information here, a little recon. There's a couple of things that come have come out across the board. This is studying leaders in organizations of every size and shape and kind. Public, private, private, for profit, not for profit. And it's about 5,000 leaders have taken this thing now. So can you give us some of the, of the, the takeaways that you've gotten out of that study that, that you've seen among women in burnout?

Yeah, absolutely. So how we are using it right now is we published our very first paper in late September, camera first paper.

Coming out of it. And it's going to.

We had so much data out of it that it's going to be a series of publications. So a couple more coming out. We're speaking at conferences on it, a number of different places. Our first paper was specifically on. On the do it all discrepancy which we talked about and really looking at that and you know, we partnered again with Luna to do a campaign of hashtag, you know, define your all. Because again social media, the world around.

Us chooses it pushes us to have.

Everything be our all.

You are doing all of it. But the reality is all of it doesn't always matter to you. It is not the slog just for doing it all sake but what it.

Actually what floats your boat. Like what lights you up doing those.

Things he talked about doing. Like late night. Sometimes we all have to do late.

Night, late nights and do one more.

Work every once in a while.

But it's the fact that it's not every single moment. So one is choosing your all. Number two is really being deliberate about how we use social media. So we dove into social media for that very first paper since the impact of social media is so unique on our current generation and also looking at self comparison. So one other thing we haven't discussed is what I call comparitonitis. And other people talk about it as the comparison quicksand. No matter when you start to have those comparison moments and how to make comparison is not necessarily, necessarily like stress intrinsically a bad thing. If you can use comparison to motivate you sure to say what are they.

Doing that, I, why, why do I feel this.

But instead of allowing it to internalize and become that comparison quicksand and so it makes you feel worse and worse about yourself. So be very careful with how we are handling comparisons and then we're going to be going on with more papers.

One thing we did create was the what's causing your burnout quiz. We figured people don't really need another.

Quiz on again, how burned out are are you?

We want to know how at risk.

Are you and what are your risk factors.

You can go, it's in an eight question quiz. So again takes like three, two to three minutes depending on how quick of.

A reader you are.

And then at the end of it we give you your risk, but more importantly we actually personalize it and say.

Here'S your as a given, your answers, here are your top three drivers of stress and we email that to them. The idea being again, we want to take you from feeling burned out to, to how do we take you along this journey to not feel burned out anymore and give you one or two tips. And then we'll be writing way more on burnout and the responses and then.

Also, but again the mind body.

So I talk a lot also to my patient people who are on my newsletter for burnout about how you know what the food, intermittent fasting, how does that impact both your health and your mental health. Melatonin for sleep. What are all these other things that also are going to fit into that ecosystem and, and cause or improve your burnout levels?

Yeah, indeed. I mean stress is, is a thing people think they want to get rid of or it's sometimes misunderstood as something we need to do, you know, have less of. But again, back to the research. It's not stress that's the issue. And, and there's a great TED talk. I don't remember who did this one some years ago. But stress is not the problem. It's our lack of recovery from stress that. Yeah. And in that particular TED Talk, I remember the woman was talking about how stress is not the thing that kills us. It's actually our belief about stress that.

Creates the kind of, I think of it, I think in being an ER doctor, you know, I, as an ER doctor, we're in the midst of it. I remember one time I had a.

Patient, I was working in the ER.

And I get a call from security.

On the walkie talkie because we still use walkie talkies. I mean in amidst all this saying that the patient I was admitting for a heart attack, her, her Was been going up to the fourth floor when the elevator broke and she was stuck between the third and fourth flooring. Could I please come help her? Because she was now stuck in the elevator and having chest pain again.

So ran, pocketed some aspirin, pocketed some.

Nitroglycerin, got my stethoscope and went running to the fourth floor. And you can see the elevator in the shaft, leaning in, end up taking care of her and getting her better, actually, before they even fix the elevator, which I considered a win. And I remember my intern saying afterwards.

How did you say stay so calm? How did you do that? And it is about, how do you function amidst chaos without letting the chaos.

Internalize, be internalized by you?

Of course, we will do things to.

Try to reduce the uncertainty and the chaos around us. We will, you know, you talk about routines all the time. We will decrease our decisions.

We will decrease some of the variables.

As much as possible. But to a certain extent, uncertainty and chaos will always exist. And how do you live amidst that chaos and uncertainty without letting it be internalized?

Yeah, I mean, that's the norm, don't you think? Chaos and uncertainty and the unknown, that's. That's the norm. Everything else, norm, exception to that rule.

Right.

So what do you, what do you do in a world where that's not only the norm, but it's going to become more and more prevalent? Disruption, change the pace of it, the velocity of it only increasing. What do you do in that situation? I think that's where both our work really overlaps. A nice Venn diagram here of, of where we, we have a common belief system. And what I think has been guided by the research that you develop your resilience before, you know, need it. That's the point of it. So being calm in the moment of chaos isn't because somehow or another you've, you know, you're a great Zen, you know, like, you're different, you're built different. No, it's that you've done the, the prep work to be calm in chaos. And I don't mean that. That's just like I practice meditation or something like that. It's that you, you've got recovery rituals as part of your normal routine so that you're not depleted. And because you're not depleted, depleted, it's possible to, to, to think rightly in the moment and make right decisions. Then that's the result of a lack of being exhausted, of being depleted. Because when we're, when we're verging on burnout, or we're burned out. What we see happen. What happens is that we lack the. The capacity to. To think clearly and be patient. I got interviewed by Psychology Today. I guess it's. It's a little less than a year ago about what happened at the Oscars last March, which was an odd thing that. That I was being tapped for that topic. You know, like, we all get it. Watched Will Smith get up, or at least we saw it on YouTube or something, you know, and couldn't believe it, because I saw it on YouTube that night and watched it and thought it was a joke. Just thought it was, you know, somebody's meme or something. But obviously it wasn't a joke. It was real. And. And I was asked for just an opinion as to why, you know, that could have happened, and my. My thought on it, and there's a lot of ways to look at it, because he had a very challenging childhood, and there's stuff about his mom and the stuff about defending women and defending his wife and all that kind of trigger stuff that was in there. I didn't speak to any of that. I just said he was depleted. And. And you go, well, you know, does. Does a guy who's at the top of the game and truly, you know, like, that's a person at the top of the heap, right? In terms of everything that you might think you want out of life, money and fame and celebrity and great marriage and kids and health and all those good things. And you go, what in the world. World does he have that's stressing him out? And yet, to me, a person who is depleted is a person that reacts to a stressor. The way he reacted. He didn't wake up that morning. Will Smith did not put his feet on the floor that morning. Go, I'm gonna. Today, I'm literally gonna sabotage everything I've been working on my entire life, and I'm gonna do it in front of the world. I'm not gonna do it privately. I do it in front of everybody.

No, right.

Like, never have any. Any thoughts on that. Like, if. If Psychology Today came to you and said the same question, any thoughts on. On that event now, many months ago, what. What would you say to them? What would you say?

I love that. And I think it gets to.

We're talking about. Of just, like, powering through. There comes a point at which it is, yes, again, we all have to power through at times. There are times that I'm exhausted in the middle of an ER shift, and.

You still have the next patient coming.

But how do you get those moments of recovery? Recovery? How do you replete when you're depleted, even if it's just for minutes? How do you not kind of live your life in this, like, moment of constantly being triggered? And yes, I think it's a lot of being attentive to taking the recovery and being attentive to your feelings and your emotions and questioning the stories. It gets back to coherence. What are the stories we're telling ourselves about what's going on?

What were the automatic stories for that story? For that example, for Will Smith that came, came up for him at that moment, that had nothing to do perhaps.

With what Chris Rock was saying? What were his automatic stories? And how do we question those? And. Yeah, and not being able to, being able to take that moment for ourselves.

Yeah. And for, for those of you out there, you know that, that have either dealt with something similar or may deal with something similar in the future. And I don't mean being at the Oscars in the front row and that whole thing happening. I just mean where you feel triggered in the moment to react. Because we see, see, it's epidemic. The level of not just anxiety in the world around us, but the level of anger and impatience is just, you know, it's staggering how quickly people are sort of just at the end of their rope or at the end of their fuse. So a little self serving to say it this way in the book Change proof, There's a model that's kind of similar to the coherence model you, you identified earlier. It has three parts and it's super simple. It's pause, add, ask, choose, and there's more detail to it and all that. I won't get into it, but you can figure out what that looks like. Just, you know, simply you pause, you ask, for example, what. What are my options in this moment? And then you choose. And I feel like if, if Will had just. I'll call him Will. He's a buddy, okay? If. If Mr. Smith had sat there and paused and asked simply a couple of questions like, should I get up and go punch this guy? Should I get up on. Get on stage and hit somebody in front of the world? He would have, he would never have chosen that. He just didn't pause and ask any questions. It was just his fuse lit and it was explosion after that. And so if we think about our own lives and the places where we write an email and hit send on that email, we shouldn't hit send on that email, or we have a conversation where we needed to be listening more than we were speaking or we were not monitoring our tone in speaking to somebody. Wherever it is that this shows up, I'm just, just gonna. My call to action to everybody is just today, wherever that might happen, somebody, you know, flips you the bird in the car or they beep, they lean on their horn because you didn't move past the light fast enough. Pause, ask, and choose is something you can do as well.

I love that model, Adam. Pause, ask, choose. I love that. And it makes me think of two things.

One is, we were talking about uncertainty. And when you're in uncertainty, it's so uncomfortable, comfortable. It's like that itch. You got to get an answer and.

Or similarly, when you are triggered, it's that itch. I've got to punch somebody to make this feeling go away.

I feel like I have to do something. I think people. That pause is so important because you.

Can remember that awful feeling of floodedness. It doesn't last. It lasts about 90 seconds.

If you, if you look at the. The biochemical research, something I think about frequently in the emergency department, even some. Something somebody said, something Brutus, it'll.

It dissipates if you just give it.

A second to pause and don't react.

And the other thing is in that.

Moment, the ability to pause at that moment is often not dependent on how you are at that moment. It's dependent on what you've been doing the last 72 hours. Have you given yourself time to recover? Are you doing things that are meaningful? Are you doing things where you feel like you have an agency and you have. You can be effective? And are you taking. Taking action in those ways?

Brilliant. Such. Such good stuff. Dr. Daria, I could talk to you all day.

This has been wonderful.

We're going to wrap it up. But I have one last question for you. And I know that our. Our folks out there will have full show notes with information in the show notes, links to your site and work and where they can get more information. I'm curious, what type of ritual is most effective for you? You and I probably have a very similar life in that we are very much. And I use the word ritual to just replace the word habit. But there are things that we do on a. On a ritual or habitual basis to help us to recharge, to recover in the sense that you just described it. I'd love to know what's the one go to that you have?

Okay, maybe using. I know you're. You're a guru about having those routines and I think. Oh, I wanted to say one thing earlier, if I can just add it in.

We were talking about your morning routines with not picking up your phone.

Yep.

Decided the night before because again that cognitive decision load, giving ourselves more decision. You don't want to at 7 in.

The morning or 6 or 5 or anything. Do I pick up my phone or do I not? Should I?

No. Decide the night before not picking it up for 10 minutes and then just.

Make it a norm for me. There's three rituals, but I'm going to say two.

One is the minute I wake up now I go move. And I am not a morning runner.

I look at those people who get.

Up and I just love to get my run out in the morning. Like I want to punch them out in the face. It's kind of like those people who are like, I just like drinking tea.

I don't need coffee, I don't really need caffeine.

Want to punch him in the face. Which maybe not be a good conversation since we just talked about the Oscars. I don't really plan to punch them in the face just so we know, but I, I slipped. Just so we're clear, I kind of built that up, that routine very slowly for about 12 weeks of slowly getting.

Up and moving in the morning.

And now no matter what, I get up, I head to my treadmill, I get in five or 10 minutes, even if it is a walk, I move. And no matter what else happens that day, I have, I have the physical benefits of movement and I have the mental health. And no matter what happens that day, something happens. I freshly, I took five or ten minutes for myself, usually more.

Usually a half hour or so. I had that for myself and I got that in. And I encourage everybody just to create a little movement habit. Five minutes.

I love it. It's beautiful. I'll. You know what? I'll share mine as well because you inspired me to do that. I, I gave a TED talk some years ago just like you did, which was such a. And so nerve wracking. I mean like, and I've been a public speaker for so long and yet doing a TED Talk literally had me by the throat.

Like so hard to Talk for just 11 minutes.

Oh, I had 18 back in the day or whatever. But you know, but still so difficult. I told my wife at some point when she was saying to me at like 11 o' clock at night, she'd go, do you talk? Like this is how our relationship is. She said, I'm trying to get in bed at 11 o' clock. She goes, yeah, she get. Do you talk? No, no, you cannot make me do it.

Leave me alone.

Yeah, it was literally like, leave me alone. And then I, I would do it and, and it was just torture because I, I said, I don't know if I have enough brain cells to do this any. Like, I don't know, to memorize.

You do it in that 2000.

Yeah, she, she would do that. And it was perfect. And meaning her, the way she supported me that way and was beautiful, truly. I. I shared the development of a ritual. That was what my talk was about, how I developed this ritual from the life that I used to have, which was as a lawyer, as 18 years as a practicing attorney. I'm retired now, but having had a panic attack, ending up in the ER with somebody like yourself, you know, looking at me and going, oh, look at this poor, this poor knucklehead right here. He really.

Which is not what I say about. Okay, I'll let you keep going.

He really thinks he's dying. He really thinks he's never going to see his kids again. And I mean, like, sweating profusely, fingers tingling. Sound familiar, right? Like heart beating on the outside of my body. It felt like. And I'm literally in that feeling. Not. I was scared, terrified. And at the same moment, I was so pissed at myself. I was so angry. It was such so much self loathing that was baked into that. And so it just was. Was getting worse and worse and worse. And I'm looking at, you know, and I'm going, I can't believe I'm putting my beautiful wife through this. I can't believe this is the way it's going to end. I mean, it was just, you know, like that moment, right? So coming out of that and waking up in the morning and starting the day with that anxiety, which is how the day greeted me for many years. Anxiousness, angst and anger at the start of the day, even, because I was so frustrated with why I would even feel, feel that, because they didn't understand it. So I started doing something at the beginning of the day about 12 years ago, which is one of my feet hit the floor. The first recognition consciously that I have is that I've been given this great. I've been given this gift, you know, that there are people, when I'm having that awareness, taking that breath in that moment. There are people taking their last, their very last breath in that same moment, in that exact same moment. And so I just started saying, I love my life in the morning. Like when I wake up, my first thing, my feet hit the floor. As I say I love my life, which could be replaced with, I'm grateful for my life. I appreciate, I appreciate my life. So that's been a rich a thing I do consistently every day since.

I love that. I love that so much. And I do something similar. After spending about a week in the hospital at Cleveland Clinic one time, I remember the first morning I woke up at home and I woke up, I'm here, I'm in my bed in here. And just like you said, there's, there's so many people for whom that's not an option. And I think, now that I think about it, thank you for Kristen personalizing that for me. That's really a wonderful thing you just did. But that's what I do. That's the first thing I do still to this day. I wake up, I'm here, I'm gonna go say hi to my kids. I'm here. I got this day. Yeah. So thank you for that.

Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. I know we get phenomenal comments based on, on this conversation. So I have a reminder to folks, if there's somebody that you know that could really benefit from hearing what Dr. Daria shared today, the insights and the wisdom, feel free to share this show. I mean, that's how the word gets out anyway. And, and it's again, it may seem like it's being self centered to say it, but we want the message to get out to more people. We do this really. There isn't a lot of, at least at the level we're at, which is really got a great following. But you know, we're not, there's not a money component and I'm not saying there shouldn't be or there couldn't be, but that's not the driver, that's not the primary driver for why we do the show. So if you do know some people that would really benefit from hearing this, please share that Leave a review the reviews are great because it helps the algorithm to help us get the word out and have people, more people consume this content. So the review would be great. We'd love that. And of course you can leave a comment@adammarkel.com forward slash podcast for either Dr. Daria or myself or both of us. And we will respond to that accordingly. Thank you so much for your time today. I love this conversation.

Thank you.

Me too, Adam.

Thank you so much.

And thank you to all of your listeners and I welcome any questions from them.

I love hearing from people who have heard snippets of these conversations.

Way cool. All right, everybody, ciao for now. Bye bye.

Bye.

Well, I so enjoyed that conversation with Dr. Daria Long. I mean, to hear a doctor, especially someone with her experience and her expertise, her insights, share so vulnerably about what it meant and what it was like for her to be on the other side of that diagnosis and what it meant to be a patient patient and having to deal with the uncertainty and the worry over the health of her heart as she was busy doctoring and helping others to resolve their health challenges, as well as being a mom, you know, and everything else that she had going on in her life. She gave us quite a recipe for how it is that we can be more resilient in the face of those challenges. And she used a word that I, I want to repeat right now, and that word was coherent coherence. And there were three things that she identified as being part of how we develop coherence, which is a word I could easily feel is interchangeable with the word resilience. And she was giving us some really concrete examples of how it is that we have to use these, this three step process as a way to get leverage over the fear that comes up when we are living in a state of unknown. And often, often the worst fear has to do with the unknown surrounding our health. Especially when we, when we receive some sort of a diagnosis or when we're given some reason to believe that there's something structurally wrong with us because our bodies are exhibiting signs of some pain or we're experiencing pain in some area of our, of our bodies. I brought to the table a reference to Dr. John Sargent Arno and his book Healing Back Pain. And I wanted to find out from this doctor, from our guest today what her thoughts were on the mind body connection. And we got to get into that which was fun for, for both of us, I think today in doing that. But we, we really did track the source of so much of our worry and how it relates to fear and how it relates to our relationship to change and to uncertainty. Again, I thought this conversation was, was valuable not just to me, but, but to anybody that I would feel would also have moments where you feel almost paralyzed by the level of uncertainty that can exist when your health is not as you'd like it to be or when again, maybe you're feeling anxious and don't exactly know why or what to do about it. I think there's a great underlying cause for a lot of the discomfort that we're feeling right now. I expressed some of my own thoughts and opinions about that and got to go back and and forth with Dr. Long and, and I think we had a great time of it. So I hope you love the episode, I hope you found it as valuable as I did, and that there are others in your world that might also benefit from this conversation. If that's the case, please, as always, feel free to share this episode with a friend or colleague. It's one of the ways that the, that our mission is, is realized when more and more people are having conversations about their well being, about their wellness, about their mental health, mental wellness, their physical, their emotional, and even their spiritual well being. Ultimately, that holistic concept is how we define resilience. And in the world we're living in right now, with stressors of every kind only sort of multiplying in magnitude, whether it's the economy, whether it's politics, whether it's life at home and what's happening in and among our family members, whether it's dealing with the holiday, holidays, we're dealing with any number of other things that just that can trigger us. You know, we are living in a time of great anger, it seems, and it's in some ways even something that we're getting, you know, that people are getting entertainment value out of anger. Tainment is, I think the, the phrase that was coined a few months back to describe that where we're seeing people in rage and watching videos on YouTube and YouTube channels coming out that just focus on, on seeing folks in rage, whether they're on an airplane or in a car or in the supermarket or elsewhere. And the underlying cause of a lot of that is just fear. It's, it's fear that is born out of sort of a confluence of things and a level of uncertainty that we probably have not dealt with in this quantity in our lives. At least I haven't. So this was a great conversation to talk about a lot of those things. And again, we'd love it if you'd leave a comment. You can go to AdamMarkel.com/forward/comment to leave a comment, or I should say AdamMarkel.com forward/podcast to leave a comment. We, we thank you for that. And as always, if you want to find out just where you are on your own holistic journey toward more coherence, toward more resilience, you can Simply go to rankmyresilience.com rank my resilience. And in three minutes, with complete clarity, you will, you will learn a little bit more about how resilient you are, and you will will do that, I think in in a way that that sets the table for moving forward in in a world that will probably only become that much more uncertain as we move forward. And of course, it's entirely complimentary, so enjoy that as well. Thanks again.

Thanks for listening. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build resilience and become change proof. Remember to leave a review on Apple Podcasts and you may be featured in an upcoming episode. For more resilience tips and strategies, including support for building change proof teams, visit AdamMarkel.com to get your own free resilience assessment, go to rankmyresilience.com.