Breaking Stereotypes: Celebrating The Wisdom Of Aging With Kari Thurlow

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day, we face change, stress, and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markell and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change. Proof.

Everybody. Welcome back to another Change Proof podcast episode. I'm your host, Adam Markel, and today I have Carrie Thurlow. I got to meet Carrie a couple of months ago when I keynoted a presentation, an event for her organization called Leading Age of Minnesota. They support the organizations that take care of the elderly in the state of Minnesota. It's a. It's a. A very daunting field, and, and Carrie is truly a leader in that space. She is the president and CEO, as I said, of Leading Age Minnesota, Minnesota's largest association dedicated to supporting aging services providers. Leading Age Minnesota's members serve older adults in nursing homes, assisted living, independent living, adult day settings, and through other home and community services. Carrie has been at Leading Age Minnesota for over 15 years, but stepping into the CEO position in 2022 after years in advocacy, lobbying, and affairs. She's also an attorney, and we had that in common. And you're going to absolutely, I think, be quite moved by the conversation that we have today. I think we really touch on some things that are very, very important. And, and I think you'll enjoy it. So sit back and relax, buckle up, et cetera, and enjoy this conversation today with Carrie Thurlow. All right, Carrie, so you have an impressive bio, and I'm sure you get, you know, from time to time, people will read it, introduce you in that way. And, and I always find it a little awkward to listen to people talk about me and when it comes to those kind of things. Right. But my question to you, what's not a part of this bio? And let's pick one thing, one thing that's not in this standard introduction of bio that you would just love for people to know about you at the outset of our conversation.

Well, you know, the, the one thing that I would say, so clearly, I'm a recovering lawyer and lobbyist, just like me. But, you know, I, I think the one thing that my guess about me is I was also a competitive debater and was a coach of high school kids before I had kids of my own. And that really helps me. You know, it really defines my communication style, how I view the world, and sort of able to step into a lot of different viewpoints and shoes and try them on And I think that that has served me really well. So shout out to all the debate coaches out there.

No kidding. And it's interesting you bring that up because lawyers, for the most part, I think, have to have that same sort of skill set. Right. Because you get to choose your clients maybe. I mean, we do at a certain point in our career, at the beginning, we certainly don't. And we can't choose their cases. We can't choose the circumstances that bring them into our offices when we were practicing attorneys, I should say. And so to be an excellent lawyer, you have to really work with what you're given. Just like a debater.

Right.

Given one side of the argument or the other. And you don't say to the debate coach, hey, listen, you know, I can't take that side of the argument. I mean, if you do that, you're not going to really succeed.

Right, right, right. And for me now, in the work that I do primarily in public policy, being able to step in and sort of be that connector and say, well, I think I understand that viewpoint, or at least I can sort of step into it and explain it and serve as a connector for somebody who might have a different viewpoint has really served me really well as a, as a connector in this field.

Does that when you said earlier that it being involved in debate and even coaching, it really informed your communication style? Can you say more about that or is that what you were just talking about?

Well, I think it's partly that. Right. I think that, you know, I think in today's world, I'm not going to be political here, but. Right. People take up causes and sides really quickly and, and there's really a failure to understand other unique points of view. I think it's probably why we have so many difficulties in today's world. So it, I think leading an association, being able to serve as a connector to lawmakers, using and leaning on those skills helps my communication style in a way that I, I don't know, I think it, it has really, really helped in, in advance my career and helped in the work that I do.

Yeah, you know, I, I, Carrie, I'm asking you for something that maybe you don't have the, you don't have the CV to support, but I don't either. And, and I still think we have more, more than enough experience to have form an opinion. Why do you think it is that people today opinions as quickly as they do. And do you think that, that, that, that it in and of itself is, is working against empathy? You know, we, we do Hear a lot. You're a CEO. I'm a CEO. And we, we certainly. And I'm in this, this world of sort of the, the training and development, learning and development space. So we're talking about psychological safety a lot. We're talking about things like listening skills and developing empathy. And yet it seems like there's a lot of examples around us where empathy is lacking. I think that's what came up for me when you said that.

Right. Yeah, I think it's true. And you know, as I said, I'm a recovering lobbyist. I've been a lobbyist for 25 years now. And I've seen, you know, sort of the political discourse change quite a bit. You know, the opinion of one. Right. Is that our worlds have gotten incredibly small. And that. And, and I, this is not an indictment on social media. I love social media. Obviously we're on a social media platform right now, but if you look at an individual social media platform, it is very affirming to a viewpoint you already have. You know, cable news is affirming if it has gotten to affirming a viewpoint that, that you already have. And I would challenge, I frequently challenge people to say, have you posted anything that has actually changed your mind lately? I, I think there are very few people that are really going out there to looking for alternative viewpoints, really asking that question of what's really behind that. And, and so while communication has become more diverse and there are multiple channels, our worlds have gotten extremely small. And I think it does impact empathy. I think it impacts our ability to make connections in a way that is not entirely positive all the time.

Yeah. And if we're living in a more insular world, in the echo chamber, that people use that term frequently now too. It, it's interesting in, in the work that you do in the world because there's, there's that sort of aspect of our daily living. And yet with, with people that are older, are retired, are, are living in, in facilities, assisted living and, and, and facilities of that kind. Those, you know, in the, in the, I don't want to say in the end, but as we grow older, those things fall away and become so much less important, don't they? Like the person who's, who's, you know, caring for you. It's much less important, you know, what, what side of the political discourse or divide they stand, isn't it, in those environments?

Yeah, I think it's absolutely true. And I don't think I'm the first person to observe this or even say it but you know, one of the more universal experiences we all have is that we are all aging. I haven't found whether you're.

Say it isn't so, Carrie, whether you're.

A Republican or a Democrat or Green Party or, you know, whatever independent party you may have in, in whatever community, I haven't found a single person that's actually Benjamin Button and actually reverse aging. So, you know, it's one of those universal experiences that again, really sort of leaning on this idea of finding empathy and common ground, even if you have two very different people, I think has really worked in this arena for me.

There must be a lot of lessons from that work that potentially could help people to navigate this. What seems like a rockier road than when, when I, at least, you know, I'm, I'm going back to when I was in my 30s and there was plenty of strife in the world. There were lots of issues. You know, it just feels as though the, the level of anxiety and depression and, and other other mental health concerns that, that I get to, to be witness to in the work that I do really is, is a great deal more extreme than I recall when, you know, some, some time ago. I don't want to do the good old days thing. I'm not trying to go there, but, but I do want to track just to what you're saying about, you know, where, when we lose, when we lose empathy, I think, I think we're losing a lot and yet we gain empathy. We have to come back to that. Because as right as you might be. And I mean that, you know, like out. Out to the universe, right? Whoever's thinking at this moment, even listening to this, you know, I, I hear you, but, but I know my views are right. I have my opinions for a good reason. You know, I know. So certain. Right. You know, in the end we all age and, and we all face that the humility of. Of sort of everything that we've, we've. We've amassed and, and scrapped, you know, to, to obtain, etc. And everything is a process of letting go. And that's universal. There's nobody who's going to escape that. Those. That process of letting go is. Isn't that true, right?

I, I think that's true. And I mean, maybe different cultures approach it differently. Right? I mean there are different traditions and cultures on. In aging and, and I probably would dare say, and I'm, you know, not an expert here, but I would dare say that probably in the United States we do it worse than other countries.

I was Just going to ask you about that.

Yep. But it is true, it's inescapable that if we're lucky enough to age, that we, that there is similar, all of the research points to sort of a very similar process. And you know, I think it is so easy to other, other people, right, to say, oh, they're different than me. You know, it's those people over there. But it's, it's one of those common threads that I think could sort of, if we remind ourselves of it could be really important going forward. And, and you know, one of those tools to lean heavily on.

So, because you, you brought it up. I was thinking it, but I'm glad you said it. How, how do you, how would you describe how the US Is looking at the aging processes, looking at, at, at their seniors? Because we have, this is the largest demographic that, that, that we have in 330 or so million people that, that reside in, in the US the largest demographic are baby boomers. Right. You've got a large aging population. How does the U.S. think about, about older people versus maybe the way seniors are looked at elsewhere in the world if you have, if you have experience with that.

So I, you know, and I'll just, you know, I'm, I'm based out of Minnesota and there's like a gazillion. But you know, here in Minnesota, we now have over a million people over the age of 65. It's about, you know, 20% of our population. We actually have more seniors than school children here. And that's, that's not unique in the country. So you can extrapolate to the rest of the country. So you're right. You know, the, the, the world is aging and quite frankly, it's not unique to the United States. It's a global phenomenon. But I would say that while there are a lot of things the United States does. Right. I don't know that we do aging very well. I would say, at the risk of sounding provocative, I think we live in a fairly ageist society that doesn't value the wisdom and experience of aging individuals. You know, we could point to a number of examples in media and social policy or what have you to sort of illustrate that. But I think we also don't really think about, you know, and this is where my members come into play and about the supports one needs as they get older, how we support individuals to really experience a rich and fulfilling life through the, through the, the last years of one's life. We don't do that well in so Many cases and we don't support families who want to do it. Well, if they're acting as, as informal caregivers, there's a lot of room for improvement. And you know, I would say no country is perfect. But I think we have other cultures around the globe that maybe have traditions of valuing elders that we could learn from and really impart some of that wisdom in our own systems here.

Yeah, it's interesting. And this is just calling more for an opinion or I guess a, just a feeling actually. Do you think it, that, that we are as you know, that the United States handles this perhaps differently because people are, are don't want to be reminded of their mortality. Do you think it, there's some, some element of truth in that? We're so focused obviously through social media, but long ago, you know, way before social media was advertising, you know, be thin, be young, be handsome and pretty and you know, like everything was about youth. It's always been about that or it's been about that for a long time. Do you think people just don't want to be reminded that they're going to get old and eventually die?

I mean, maybe, I mean, I, I think there's probably part of that. I think our economy sort of fuels some of that and how we view productive people in the economy and, and you know, just our changing values in terms of, of what we value in this society really does maybe put different age groups sort of with a friction or attention there. So there's probably multiple, multiple factors. But you know, you know, the little known secret is that by and large older people are, you know, if you look at people who study happiness, older people are happier. They're, they, they have such rich experience. It is something that we should celebrate and do everything we can do to sort of lift up those individuals that have aged and aged well.

And honestly, the, the one thing that I think makes your life better every day I'm making, I'm boldly saying this, and I know makes my life better every day, is that I'm somehow wiser than I was the day before, the week or month or year before. I, I've learned things that help me to live a better, better life, but also be a better person, be better in my work, you know, whatever it is. So where, where do we get to a point where somehow or another that is, that isn't as valuable, you know, when you're 70 as it would have been when you were 45 or 50?

Right.

You know, it really seems bit odd, doesn't it?

It does well. And again, not to be political, but just even look at the discourse around different political candidates as to whether they are too old for office. Now, we can talk about health, that's different. But where the proxy is age is really something interesting. And we could talk about that on both sides of the political fence or other positions outside of politics where we have this notion that somebody is too old to give back when we know there's this huge font of wisdom. So, you know, I think we have a lot of work to do here in the United States.

I think so. And, and you know what you, you put, you brought up a really interesting point. So this is obviously where we're, we're, we're going right down the middle, not taking a side either way, but there is this opportunity right now to, to, for, for that to not be a, A campaign issue. Right, right. I mean, of everything, you know, policy would make the most sense. You know, a person's record on the job, what they've done well or not done well, what they could do or couldn't do, I mean, all that is fodder. Right? That's game. Put it in. You know, let's work with that. But when a person's chronological age is the issue, and I agree with you, if health or, or, you know, mental acuity were somehow really in the mix, I just think it's, it's, it really is disheartening to see how much it is used. And the part that I think disheartens me more than anything is the fact that young people, people under 30, as I understand it, are the most sort of look, looking at that as the, as the litmus test for whether somebody could be. Could, you know, hold or maintain office, I think. Oh, my God.

Right?

That's a bit scary.

And you know, there are, there are assets to youth as well, but again, just sort of using the proxy of young, good, old, bad is. Is really a disservice. And I think about your theme here on the, on, on this podcast about big change. You know, as I think about older Americans, older people, I mean, talk about people who have had to manage change.

In their lifetime over and over, and.

And we would be fools not to tap into that wisdom.

Yeah. I was going to ask you. That's so great that you brought that up. The. Do you, do you find that as with the people that you work with regularly. So, so you're managing an organization that, that offers services to the elderly in the state of Minnesota. Right. Leading needs.

Not quite so we actually are the association of providers that offer seniors of services.

You're supporting those folks that we are offering those services.

About 1200 organizations throughout Minnesota that provide services to seniors in all the different forms that you can think of for senior care. They come together in our association and really share their collective wisdom on how we can. You know, our mission statement is to transform and enhance the experience of aging. So it really is a collective effort here in Minnesota.

What do you see as the things that you've. That the organization and its members have done well, you know, through the pandemic and now coming on the other side of it? And where do you see there being some room for, you know, growth, for opportunity to.

Yeah, great. You know, I think one thing. And the pandemic was really. I don't even know if there are the right words to articulate how hard the pandemic was on our sector. You know, we. Many of our members serve the most. The individuals who are most vulnerable to the most devastating impacts of COVID early on when we didn't have treatments and vaccines and whatnot, and they literally held the hands of people who were dying from. From the virus. That's trauma on our sector that we're still dealing with.

Right. Without family even.

Right. We. We were required to not allow family members into our buildings because of the spread of the virus. So the caregivers in those buildings, and I can't say enough about the work that the direct caregivers do, they literally became family, you know, for months at a time, combating social isolation. And that's trauma that we're still working through as a sector as a whole. That said, one of the things that I think the sector did very, very well here in Minnesota and Countrywide was the coming together. You know, we're not unlike other sectors where you have healthy competition amongst different providers, but you saw a lot of that go, you know, sort of fade away as people just increased communication to support one another, to become a support system. Because you really only understood it if you were in it to share best practices to help each other who were really in crisis. And that has persisted.

That has persisted.

That has persisted in a way that I don't think you would realize if you weren't in the sector, which has been great. The generous sharing between providers in a competitive space is just something you don't see very often. You know, I think the things that we could do better. We have a very regulated industry. Right. Because we deal with very vulnerable people. But what I see happening, and again, not to be political, I won't be political here. But you know, there is this constant push and pull that we have with lawmakers about, you know, if we just regulated enough, everybody wrap everybody in bubble wrap, they'll be safe. And that's not how seniors want to live their lives. And I think we need to sort of think and say, okay, take a step back from the pandemic. How do we let seniors have individual choice and autonomy and still are creating really safe but home like environments that is work that we haven't gotten. Right. And I think need to do a better job at.

Yeah, I'm wondering whether the, you know, what's far, what's, what's farther upstream that's even possible in the way of education. Something that would just make this, you know, that would enable this, this inevitable consequence of situation in life that we are all going to deal with aging of our parents, our own aging and our children, if we have children dealing with that, etc. I don't, I just don't remember hearing, learning about any of this, even reading about it. There was just nothing. If you weren't, you know, somehow involved in that sector. As you said, I basically heard nothing about it growing through school and.

Right.

Postgraduate courses. Nothing about it.

Well, and I think this, I think the solution is pretty simple. I mean we've already talked about the demographics. We are all, whether we're in senior care or not, we are all going to have lives and careers that intersect with older people. That's just a fact. And we need to do a better job of, of teaching how, how to do that. You know, I think the solution is pretty simple. I think schools need to do a better job connecting intergenerationally. We used to do that organically. Right. When families live closer together, Sunday supper with grandma and grandpa used to be the norm. I don't think it really is anymore because family were more spread out and whatever. But there are wonderful examples of programs where schools and you know, senior care settings are coming together to have intergenerational conversations where they learn from each other. So I don't think you need to over program it. I think we just need to value it and lift it up and make it happen.

And there to be that interaction. Yeah, because it's not theoretical either. There's plenty of older people around that would love to, to be able to contribute. Contribute or volunteer their time or be around young kids, whether they're, you know, elementary or, or even college kids that just maybe don't have a lot of comfortability around being in, in the presence of of a person who's senior, who is aged. I mean, like, that. That can share with them things that would make their lives potentially a great deal easier and better.

I think so. And, you know, it gets away from the tropes that you often see when you see intergenerational connection. There are lots of tropes that people lean on in those situations. And I mean, I think reality couldn't be further from the truth. Aging people are vital. They, they're, they're fascinating to be around. And just having those, those conversations are important.

Yeah. The memes or whatever they are, they're, they are. Yeah. I don't find them humorous. I mean, look, I try to maintain a sense of humor. It's certainly about my, Myself, which is not always easy, not take yourself seriously. But, but when, when I see that stuff, it's just, it, it really does feel, Feel awful. And. Yeah, especially as you said, there are cultures around the globe that really honor. They're the, the, the people in there, in those communities that, that have lived longer and have learned more. They just have learned more. And not because they're somehow smarter or better or anything. It's not, this is not a, it's not a, you know, like a, an us in them. It's all of. It's us. Right. The person you're looking at that's got all those lines is going to be you someday, if you're lucky.

Exactly.

Yeah. It's like, how do you want to be treated? Do you want people to look at you like you've got nothing, nothing left to give and you're dismissed or you're invisible? I mean, I, I, you know, it's interesting. There's an old movie, really great movie, called On Golden Pond.

Yes.

Carrie. You've seen that movie?

Yeah, yes. Henry Fonda, right?

Yeah, Henry Fonda. I think he's like around 80 years old or something. Approaching 80 in the movie. And his daughter Jane Fonda's in the movie as well, and so is Katherine Hepburn. She's maybe a few years younger or whatever, but I think in part, that movie really is about that. And, you know, that he, you know, here's a guy who lived a very vibrant and successful life, you know, professor and smart, you know, and all that. And, and wasn't, you know, wasn't a perfect person, wasn't perfect parent, and all that wasn't. Wasn't about him somehow being perfect, but the idea that, that you could get to be at that age and somehow, you know, you're like a, you just put on the shelf and, and not be of any value. He just was raging against that, you know, raging against the dying of the light. Right. He just wouldn't accept it. And it was a fabulous.

Yeah, I mean, I, well, I love that movie. It's a great movie. And I mean, I think that I have a feeling if you ask people, no matter what age they are, that probably is a pretty similar vision to what we all want. Right. Nobody wants to feel invisible, nobody wants to feel irrelevant, and everybody wants to be heard and feel valued. So I think, you know, that's an important lesson.

Yeah. Just as a couple of questions to wrap things up, Carrie, as this, this show is about change. It's about resiliency. I'd love to get a sense in, in your role as a CEO. You and I were chatting right before we hit the record. You know, you got a big board meeting coming up and you, you know, like, there's a lot on your plate in your role. And you're also, as you say, in a, in an, in a sector, in an industry where politics play a role, you've got to constantly be lobbying and providing public service and supporting those organizations, your members. I'd love to get a sense of how have you been resilient, how has your association, leading age, been resilient through all the change that's been around, et cetera? Maybe you could share a few thoughts on that.

Yeah, thanks for that. So I think I will never pretend to say that I went through the same trauma as the frontline caregivers did during the pandemic. But you know, just as our association is made up of our members, you know, that was a time that required resilience on our part, where literally regulations were changing almost every day and sometimes or every week. And then we had to translate that. Right. We had to make work with regulators and work with our members. And it was kind of non stop trying to support members and sometimes feeling really helpless. Right. Because there's only so much you can do. So getting really good at trying to find a stopping point to that work was something that was a challenge for me. But I think that we have come out better on the other side. We've, you know, now that we're on the other side, we had, as I came on as CEO almost two years ago now, so right as we were coming out of the pandemic, right as we were coming out of some tough political battles and really having that gelling together has, has been really helpful, you know, and part, part of the way we do it Here at Leading Age is. I was talking to one of my staff member. I'm like, okay, I'm supposed to talk about resilience. What we were supposed to talk about, you know, she reminded me that, that there's some core values we have here at Leading Age around humor, you know, and celebrating the small wins, that not all change is big change, but sometimes the small wins are important, giving each other grace to be human and to emote sometimes. And then also, also just sort of with this attitude of we'll get through it, because we did, we got through the pandemic, you know, not always without bumps and bruises, but we know we're going to get through it. Those are some of the core values that I think has helped us get through it and will continue to serve us well in the future.

Yeah. And I guess my last question is, do you see or hear from, from your members that people are, that they are, are kind of hanging on, you know, a bit by a threat? Because I know a lot of people really just, they muscled their way through the pandemic, you know, whatever it took. Their resilience was to just keep going. No matter how many, as you say, how many traumas they experienced. And, and, and they were varied. And some people experienced like a, a, you know, like a barrage, one wave after another. Especially caregivers. You said, coming through that and being where we are now, I think a lot of people have maintained sort of this. I'll just keep pressing forward without taking care of them. So it's a bit of an ironic thing. I work a lot in the health space. I get hired, our company gets hired quite a bit to look at how organizations can work well and, and where health and wellness inside an organization is lacking. And it's ironic, I suppose, that inside of a health organization, people are unhealthy. Yeah, you know, it's a really. Because caregivers often will put themselves last. They put everybody first before themselves. And you're shaking, you're nodding your head up and down.

So, yeah, I think. Well, and I would say that the leaders in our field are, are extremely resilient. And that said, I would say, I would point to a couple things. We've lost a lot of leaders that, you know, people who might be a site leader at an assisted living setting. We've lost some of those leaders who have left the field. Just saying, I can't do it anymore. And it's hard to quantify that. But I would dare say more than I ever experienced before the pandemic, people just Saying can't do it anymore, burnout. And we see sort of this lagging effect also. I mean, and again, I'll go back to what I think I shared with you before we started recording. I count all of these leaders as my own mentors. I think they're the most talented leaders around, the way they have to manage change so much. But there's almost like this lagging effect. So caregivers take care of the people they're taking care of. The leaders of those organizations are taking care of the caregivers. And they had to keep it all together. And now we're starting to see sort of the lagging effects of that, of that trauma. So that, that still hangs, hangs with many of the leaders in our field as they're still sort of coming out of it. That said, you know, I am seeing glimmers of sort of that joy that people had before the pandemic, which is really nice to see. And I think it's really because they lean on each other. Yeah, that is different than other sectors.

Community is really important.

Community is so important in general and especially for this field.

Yeah, that makes so much sense. Carrie, I've so enjoyed our conversation. I know it would. And, and I really appreciate your time today. I know you've got a lot of work in preparing for a big board meeting tomorrow or over the next couple of days and. Good. Just want to thank you for all the insights that you shared and for the work that you do and for the people, the organizations, the caregivers that your organization supports. Thank you for that and thanks for.

The opportunity and thanks for all. We loved having you at our annual meeting. So thanks so much.

That was my honor. What a pleasure.

All right, bye now. Take care.

Well, as promised, I, I, I think the conversation today was quite insightful and we, we talk about things, Carrie and I, that we don't get to talk about, or at least I don't get to talk about that often. I venture to say it's one of those, those things that's always kind of lurking in the background depending on your age. Although frankly, I remember being very serious about turning 10 years old. So this is like one of those. What, what's something that people don't know about you? Well, when I was turning 10, I remember feeling this, this kind of a sort of a weird sense of my mortality, like a scary or, or frightened feeling about getting older. Imagine that 9 year old kid gonna turn 10 and you know, it's going from single digits to double digits. I hope you're laughing right now, or maybe you can relate to this even. But you know, it's, it just age was something I was consciously aware of at that point. Of course I, I became consciously aware of, of aging as, as I thought about my parents mortality at a few times here and there when I was a kid too, which was scary. And now I have parents that are in their 80s and I think about their mortality now and a long time later. It's, you know, it's something that's, that's on the horizon for all of us. Whether it's that your parents are, are also still around and you're thinking about that or they've passed, or you're thinking about the lines in your face or, or you're watching your own children grow older and can't believe they, they were just little infants a minute ago and now they're graduating high school or whatever the case might be, or graduating middle school. I mean, ages, age is a thing we cannot escape and, and frankly, we wouldn't want to because the alternative is not an alternative. We want to be able to age and age, hopefully health in a healthy way, in a graceful way. And yet the aging process is fraught with challenges. And I mean, you know, the ones that are obvious, that our bodies are changing and we've got to let go of certain things perhaps that our bodies were capable of doing at a younger or an earlier time in our lives. And it might be that it was age, it might be injury, it might be so many different things that have, that have impacted that. But someone once said to me that the, the whole of life is a process of letting go. And I do believe at some point we all come to the recognition that we are going to be letting go of a lot of things if we're lucky enough to live long enough. And that is in fact a blessing. And yet one of the things that we wouldn't expect that we'd be dealing with as we age and deal with that inevitable change in our bodies, et cetera, would be discrimination would be ageism. That, that wouldn't necessarily be a thing that we think we'd be dealing with. And yet that's quite prevalent in the world that we're living in. And more prevalent probably in the United States, in North America or in the U.S. i'll say, than other parts of the world where people who are older are more respected, are more revered, are cared for by their families, and in other ways that are markedly more effective than the way in which we care for the elderly and seniors here. In the United States. So Carrie's doing this wonderful work in the world as the CEO of an organization in Minnesota that supports other facilities and other businesses, other companies that support the elderly, that provide services to, to the aging population, aging community in that state. So we get to talk today about a lot of the things that are going on in that industry. I think Carrie really, really shed light on. On the. What has been a challenge, probably the greatest challenge that has faced that, that sector and in particular the caregivers that work in that industry that dealt with so much trauma. You could call it ptsd. She didn't use that term, but just that the pandemic truly created so much trauma for the people, for the caregivers were there on a daily basis holding the hands of people that were, that were stricken with, with the virus and were, and were, were leaving, you know, leaving, leaving their bodies and having no family around. These caregivers became their surrogate family for, for days, weeks and months at a time, over and over and over again. And those same caregivers are still for the most part on the job and, and just putting, putting it all back together. And many, many have left. You know, the industry has, has undergone a certain contraction in, in the pool of people, pool of talent that are working there in, and, and the ones that are, are preparing to come and work in that industry. So this was a very important conversation and one that's not easy to have often to think about our mortality and think about the mortality of our, of our, our family family members and friends and, and in our community. So I hope you enjoyed it. I hope it's something that, that maybe you think there's somebody else that can.