Bridging Technology And The Arts With Max Stossel

Welcome to the Conscious Pivot Podcast with international speaker, business mentor, best selling author of Pivot, and your host, Adam Markell. The Conscious Pivot shares the stories and wisdom of people who have successfully reinvented some area of their business and personal life. You'll gain powerful insights into how you can fully embrace new opportunities, increase your performance, and master the art and science of innovation and resilience. So please join Adam as he guides you on your Conscious Pivot.

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Conscious Pivot Podcast. I'm your host, Adam Markell, and I feel so wonderful to be sitting here in my seat today, looking out on this rainy day, this kind of a gray day in Southern California. It's odd to be thinking that way, but when you live in Southern California, rain is actually pretty special and something that I didn't used to love when I was living on the east coast, but I certainly see it as such a blessing now. So I'm giving thanks for that. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing right now, I'd love it if you take a few moments to take, receive even a beautiful breath of clean air, hopefully, air that fills your lungs and fills your spirit, allows you to just relax for a few moments. We're going to have an incredible conversation with very, very cool and interesting guy and we're gonna get right at it. So before we get to that, just a few reminders to, if possible, be present for this conversation. Maybe, maybe you're doing some other things. I know we all multitask and kind of that becomes a new way of being. It's sort of how we've adapted to the world that's gone, gone into hyperspeed, and we probably haven't even seen what hyperspeed looks like. I'm just thinking back to 10 years ago, 15, 20 years ago, how much slower things seem to be. And obviously the pace of life and the pace of change, the pace of disruption has only gotten faster and exponentially. So I'd say. So if you can give yourself this little bit of time, this is your time to be present, whether it's to sit quietly, whether it's to walk, just keep breathing deeply. But to take in some of this hopefully very, very intriguing conversation I'm going to have with a gentleman by the name of Max Stossel in just a few moments. And that, that might serve you well. But wherever you are, whatever you're doing, thank you for being here with us. Thank you for being a part of this experience. And you are a blessing. And I'm grateful for you. As I said, my guest today is Max Stossel. He is an award winning poet filmmaker named by Forbes as one of the best storytellers of the year. His performances across five continents have been described as mind expanding, profound, emotive and hilarious all at once. That's hard to pull off all of those, and yet I've seen him do it. Actually, Max and I were part of a TEDx experience that we had up in Lake Tahoe just a couple of months ago. That's where we met. Max is also the head of education for the center for Humane Technology, an organization of former tech insiders and CEOs dedicated to realigning technology with humanity's best interest. So it's a very interesting dichotomy of things, the kind of storytelling that he does. He's a poet and his work for the center for Humane Technology. So we're going to have an incredible experience conversation and you guys get to be part of this. So thanks again, Max. Welcome to the show, brother.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, it's a pleasure. I want to dive right into this, what almost could be described as sort of a tale of two things, two cities, a contrast between technology and the arts. So on the one hand, I want our folks to learn about what your art form is and where it came from and how you've been inspired to pursue it. And on the other hand, there's this whole world of technology that I started out by describing as something that's really sped up the pace of so many things. Communication. I mean, and I don't mean to say that any of that's negative. I actually feel like it's made it possible for so many things to happen, like for people to be able to work virtually and for people to be able to pursue a lot of their passions because they can be more efficient with their time and more connected to people, et cetera, and to, you know, any number of things. And yet it's also created some challenge in terms of how we spend our time and how present we are in the moment, etc. So, Max, first of all, give us a sense of where you are with your art form and how that all started and start anywhere in that sort of experience that you like.

I'll tell the story in a way that I think merges a bit of those together in that when I was in college, one of my first jobs was doing social media for a startup. They were like, hey, you're young, go figure out social media. And so I was working for a healthcare Startup that was having a lot of trouble making sales. And all of a sudden I, this intern was generating a lot of leads on this social media thing, and that made them very interested. And I thought to myself, oh, hey, look, I can be good at something without having to go to school for it. How great I can pursue this. I ended up doing social strategy for Budweiser, Dove and some big brands. I ended up working on a. I fell in love with the startup world after I met some friends on a trip in Panama. And that was really a life changing experience for me. They were also passionate and curious and humble, and I just was like, wow, this social entrepreneurship community is cool. I like it. I want to be a part of it. And so I jumped into a friend's startup where we were trying to build a social media network. And it was in doing that that I really started to realize some of those challenges of technology and how it removes us from being present. Because we were told by investors that if we could hold your attention for two minutes or longer, we had a valuable company. And so most of what we were trying to do is figure out, hey, which notifications should we send you? What language should we use that'll get you back into our experience? How many should we send you a day? What should the language of those notifications be? Once we have your attention? What design tactics can we use to hold your attention and our experience longer? And I realized that our goals were just not really the same as the goals of the people we were designing for. Nobody wakes up in the morning and thinks, wow, how much time can I spend on this app today? That's not a very human experience. And so it was starting to recognize that in conversations with someone named Tristan Harris, who's really the leader for the leader of this humane technology movement, that made me realize that. Huh? Okay. It really seems like there's a difference here between what we want and what we just will do as human beings. You put a certain set of stimuli in front of us, and there's been a big wave of that. Of that humane technology movement recently, and I'm grateful to be at the center of that and speaking at schools and to middle schools, high schools, education conferences, parents, teachers about technology and education in the age of distraction and how we can manage the challenges that we're facing with as these phones have been a great social experiment of humanity. What was interesting about the. The merge between tech and. Or this side of my work and art was that I was always in storytelling and I was noticing as our attention spans Go down and down and down. And I recognized when I heard a spoken word poet perform in my friend's living room, and I had never heard that before. I just remembered so much of what he said, and I really followed the whole thing right through and had this realization of, wow. Rhyme and rhythm are a really powerful tool to help us listen through a message and to really get an idea from one head into another. And that was sort of what I fell in love with. And the reality of it, too, is that I got chills up my spine. I started trying to figure out why I liked it so much, like, wow, why did this stick with me so much? And I tried to, on the way home, try to write, like, journal to figure that out. And the first two lines of what I wrote rhymed, and I was like, oh, okay, I can do this. And I finished that poem, and then that was where it started. So really, I didn't know I was an artist until this thing kind of happened to me, and I started pursuing it. And I really do believe that that is in all of us. And it's just a matter of starting or trying or finding the thing that. That makes your. Your body tingle and then trying to pursue that type of art form and being patient with it.

So you didn't. You didn't have any inkling when you were a kid that you were a poet, that you had a poet's soul or some, you know, one of those ways of describing what an artist is at his or her core?

When I was really young, I definitely liked Shel Silverstein and those kind of poetry that way. Like, I definitely lost that throughout my career, adolescence, and young adulthood. And it wasn't until this happened that I rediscovered it. But this was certainly a surprise to me when I was 23 or 22, whatever it was, that I had first heard this poetry and how much. Wow, maybe I'm a poet. That was a very new. That was a surprising realization.

Yeah. You know, I think this is really an important part of our conversation today that I've just realized in this moment, Max and, you know, spirit, universe, whatever you believe kind of animates or. Yeah, if you believe that there are things that animate everything as opposed to just being one big, random, random thing, then I'm just remarking in my. For myself right now how cool it is that we get to explore this conversation around purpose and identity, because I think a lot of folks believe or have been led to believe that we are born with a certain identity or a certain purpose, and then we spend our lives trying to seek that out and find that. And if you don't know what it is, then somehow you're lost or you're less valuable than other people who have figured it out and know it earlier on in life. And what's really cool is that, first of all, I didn't feel that way. And it took me into my sort of 40s to realize that. That something like identity isn't what we're born with, it's what we evolve into, and it changes. So our identity at 17 is very different than the identity we have when we're 33 or when we're 50, and that's okay. And the things that we're called to do. So our quote, calling is also not necessarily something that we're born with and that we discover when we're, you know, that we start to become aware of it when we're five and six. And then, you know, live our whole lives in that. That place of calling. But that the calling is something that can evolve and materialize over time. So even, even if you, you know, you don't think, let's say that you have an artistic, you know, a talent for art, but you're interested in, might be that. That that become something of a calling later on in life. Because that's what happened for you, right?

Absolutely, yes. It really came as a. As a shock and as a surprise to me. I would not have expected this to be a path. And it's always. It's much easier to draw the lines looking back than it is going forward. Like when I woke up that morning, if you had asked me if, like, in three years that I would be a poet, I would have laughed.

Yeah, exactly. There wasn't the classic signs of, oh, yeah, I was a great writer when I was a kid. I used to, I, like you mentioned Shel Silverstein. The Giving Tree is a book we used to read to the kids. It's, you know, that was probably the only Shel Silverstein I know. It's not the. Not his only work, but yeah, it's. It's not like you could even point back. No, there were all these signs or, I mean, in looking back, there probably were some signs, but. But clearly there was no light bulb moment saying, yeah, I'm going to be a poet someday. But at some point it became something that you didn't just have an interest in or an appetite for, but you had an aptitude for poetry, clearly. So share a little bit about how that evolved and what it's done. Meaning where you've been, what you've shared and what it's done for you on a personal level. And then I want to see where we can build a bridge between. Which is funny because that was the. The. The subtext or the theme of our TEDx. So it's kind of money. So we'll build a bridge between these two seemingly antithetical things that. That of technology and art.

Yeah. So it's interesting because. And yeah, I'm excited to talk about this with you too. It's something I've been mulling over in my own brain. So I'll have a nice public therapy session here. But so for me, like, with. I can sit down at the page and write for six hours some days and have nothing good come out and just be like, oh, what am I doing? Why am I doing any of this? What's like, you know, what, am I terrible? Was this all a fluke? Am I ever gonna write something good again? And, like, that's a pretty frequent occurrence in my writing life. But the reason that it feels that way is because when it. When it comes, like, when creativity strikes, when inspiration strikes, for me, it really feel. It feels bigger than me. It feels like it's coming through me, but not me doing it. And I'm trying to catch this message, and I'm trying to put it on the page, and I'm trying to get it out so I can share this, like, moment of brilliance with people. And that has been, like. That has been the closest to something, just, like, truly higher power than myself that I've ever felt. And that's been invaluable for me of this. Like, it's been almost spiritual for me. And it feels. I feel a deep sense of purpose with it in that way and that, like, it just feels like, what could be more important than these perfect moments and trying to share these perfect moments with people? But it's interesting because the humane technology work, I, you know, I give a talk, I hear messages like, oh, like, the kids have ended their Snapchat streaks, and they're trying. Taking a break from social media for a week to see how that feels so they might know what that feels like. And, like, I can point to that, or I can point to these new digital wellness programs that are coming out on phones that help people reflect and think about how much they're using technology. And I can point to events like that and say, aha. My work with the center for Humane Technology has done that. That's the amount of like. So I'm pointing the world in this direction. And that seems like a good thing. With the poetry. It's much harder to like. It's easy for me to feel like, oh, this purpose helps me plant good seeds of good messages into the world and that matters. But it's much harder to say, like, hey, look, let me point to the thing that this poetry did, which in a way makes it feel less like, purposeful and in some ways more selfish, which is very confusing because that's not. It does not feel selfish in the moment at all. It feels like, wow, this is so important and I have to share this. And not for me, but because this message needs to be shared. But it's much, it's like in the society that we live in, it's much easier for me to point out to the purpose in the non artistic work than it is in the artistic work, if that makes sense.

Yes. So give us a sense of what has been the purpose for the art for you and for others. Do you think, and I know that's not an easy question to necessarily answer, but just what comes up for you?

Yeah, it's something I. It's one of those things that it's much easier for other people to talk about about my heart than my own. Um, it seems like the trends are that I'm like, there are these complex things happening in our world or in our lives or our emotions, and I'm able to put words to those in a way that sometimes people have trouble doing themselves. And so people will have been feeling something incredibly complicated or frustrating or challenging about the world and they'll feel alone. And I create a feeling of, of. Of not aloneness, that, hey, look, he, like, he gets this hard thing that I've been feeling or dealing with or noticing in the world too. And that's it. He said it. So that's. So that's one of the purpose. And then each poem in a way has its own message. And the purpose of those individual poems are different. Whether that's about bringing our country together, whether that's about having healthy relationships with technology, whether that's about cherishing the moment and waking up to the world that's in front of our face. I would say that a lot of the times each poem has its own purpose and I'm doing my best to try and guide, try and guide that message to the people who need to hear it and trying to guide that message in a way that it'll really land. That's something that comes up for me a lot, is that a message is only as good as its ability to be received. And I'm working really hard to try and not just, not just share the thing, but share the thing in a way that, like, so that people can really feel it and hear it and get it. Because so much of the brilliance in the world is lost in translation.

Yeah, it's interesting. I'm a public speaker and have been so for a long time. Part of my own pivot story was out of 18 years of law practice into this new arena of standing on stages and speaking to people and leading conversations and facilitating different explorations. And in many ways if I'm. I'm going to take, take the question on for myself. So because I know it's a difficult question, I, I feel this overriding. The overriding experience for me is one of it flow things flowing through me, you know, being. It's maybe it's overused or it's under, under, under. I don't want to say appreciated, but maybe understood, not quite understood what it means to be a channel or there's some know, mystery around that, but it very much feels like that, that things just sort of come through and I don't always know exactly what's going to come out of my mouth, but in having spoken and not being a spoken word poet but a, you know, a spoken word presenter or spoken word facilitator all over the globe, it is one of the most remarkable things to, to be witness to that process of just creating a clear opening, an opportunity for things to flow through and come out the mouth that has the potential that it has, which is to impact people in a variety of different ways. Sometimes really, really amazing and beautiful and positive ways, and other times not so so for folks. I remember reading in an Emmet Fox book years ago that I still refer to almost every single day, or not even almost, I refer to this book every single day because it's a book of daily readings, a place where he was describing how the spoken word is like an arrow and it goes where we aim it. And so for me, my intention when I'm speaking now or in, in public, in larger or small groups, my, my intention is that I'm. My words are aimed at the heart and that's ultimately my, my driver is that those words open hearts. And so I think the words that we speak are a great deal more powerful than we're led to believe in. Even when we're kids, when we heard that old expression, you know, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never harm me. How do you feel about the Power of an impact of your words. And is that also the same thing for you? That you allow yourself to sort of be an open channel for expression? Is that how it sort of flows through you? Or is it something different?

The best work has definitely come in, I think the best way I could describe being something like a channel where something comes in higher than me. And I am blessed enough or lucky enough to be able to catch that and share that. And I grateful that that happens sometimes, every day. My relationship with whether words matter is complicated. Actually, I'll share a little something with you about. About that. In that I am constantly wondering if I'm good enough to follow my heart. Constantly wondering if I'm worthy of pursuing my art. Wondering if my wording is worthy. Worried I'm not worthy of working on creating beauty. I am constantly wondering if I am creating anything. Beauty. If there's any substance to these fleeting words. Anything, it's really worth. Anything that changes after people hear my work and there's been no change as far as the eye's concerned. So I'm concerned that at the end, my life's work won't have been worth anything. I'm afraid the world would be a better place if I replaced the time I spend on stage with walking out into the streets and doing literally anything. Do words matter if they don't make matter? Do ideas need to take matter to matter? Because to make matters worse, I don't want to be out there. I want to be here sharing words that seem to so very quickly fade. My work doesn't exist in physical, tangible space. It comes and then it goes away until we're left with this nothingness, emptiness, consciousness that I so desperately want to shift. But when I look around at this, it won't look any different than when I started unless we're different than when I started. And we won't look any different as far as the eye is concerned. So I'm concerned that none of this matters. Then again, do we matter? Nothing but this miraculous organization of matter. Miraculous accumulation of matter. Seeing matter, being matter, breathing matter, we can't actually make matter. But we. We can make matter matter. We can turn matter into things that matter. We can give matter value. Are these words valuable? Is that measured in dollars and cents? Logically, that makes sense. But if we were observed by aliens, they'd wonder why we spend so much time and money on things that don't matter. They'd be like, why don't you value value for its value? Why not create a world where value actually exists? Based on your values, planet Earth could be the thing you call heaven with an adjustment to your attitudes. Isn't that a beautiful idea? And isn't it something that an idea can be beautiful? And maybe that's enough. I want so badly for it to be enough. For what I create in people's minds to be enough. I feel like I'm hurling stones into this giant pool of consciousness. And I finish each poem with a splash. For a few minutes there's a ripple over this vast pool of thoughts that we've collectively amassed. And then it fades as ripples do without a care for me or you. The eerie stillness is resumed. And as I gaze at this beautiful natural view, I can't help but feel it looks the same as before I threw at least as far as the eyes concerned. So I'm concerned that this is still just the same lake, that nothing's changed, that there's nothing in these words that doesn't fade. And I know the lake has my stones in it now, but if I'm being brutally honest with myself, it's that change. Does that matter? And no matter how much time I spend crafting the perfect lines, it won't stop my time on this earth from its inevitable decline. Since birth I have been slowly dying, losing this arm wrestling match with Father Time. And it might look like I have my shit together as far as the eye is concerned, but I'm concerned that I'm wasting the only thing that matters. That I'll look back from my deathbed knowing that deep down I didn't matter. That it didn't matter. That I'll return to the earth nothing but mere matter without having made any more than a ripple, at least as far as the eyes concerned. And so that's where I'm at in terms of whether my words matter or not. It's a kind of constant battle for me.

What a. What a seamless. It could. Someone who didn't know better, like myself might think we planned that.

Not planned, no.

All the best things in life, I think are unplanned.

I like that.

Yeah, well, we have four kids that would attest to that. Max, that was lovely. I have a question for you based on what I just heard. Do you believe in eternity?

I love that that was the question that spurred for you because so many of my musings cut like the answer comes back down to like. Well, if something goes on forever, then this, then X. And if it doesn't go on forever, then Y. And so I'm. I'm not. I'm not sure. I mean, do I believe in eternity? In what? Yes, I believe in eternity in what for eternity. And.

Well, it's interesting because I think the question of do we matter? It has a different, it has different meaning in a different context. So if this is all we've got, if this is as you say, a, an arm wrestling match from birth to death, this arm wrestling with Father Time, and we believe in time, then yeah, it's, there's, there's a lot to exploring what are we doing that matters. And, and, and if we're, if this is a chapter in a bigger book, for example, then it has a different meaning. It doesn't mean to me the things we do don't matter. Just maybe there's a little less pressure.

On us to matter so much matter towards this thing.

Yeah, you know, it's, it's the tech companies I guess might have not coined this, but they're certainly known well for creating cultures, especially among really young people, millennials and Gen Z, I guess at this point too, of purpose, of being purpose driven enterprises that want to make the world a better place. I mean this, almost nothing that matters more than that on some level. So mattering seems to matter quite a bit to the tech world. And on some level that also seems a little disingenuous. So maybe that's the bridge. It might not be the seamless bridge that you created with that beautiful poem, but let's talk a little bit about technology and humane technology. I mean, I know you came, you're an example. I don't say ex vaynermedia guy, but you used to work there, I suppose, and now you are the head of education at the center for Humane Technology. So I'd love to just. Let's have a little conversation here for a couple minutes about your, your views on tech these days. Obviously, you know, like from, from Gary V. He's really out there in a big way at about speaking about how important it is that we embrace technology. I'm a pivot guy, so there's a lot of pivots in the tech space and I believe that pivot's just a synonym for change for me. So yeah, I think we should embrace change. We always have the choice to make change our friend or make it our best friend or we can make it our enemy. So I'm on the side of embracing the technology. And at the same time, as you said, we're in an age of distraction. And I also think that technology is more than just a distraction, it's also a manipulation And Facebook. I'm not a big, huge fan of Facebook these days because of more recently just how that manipulation has become quite well known. Anyway, just ruminations on that. I'd love to just get your thoughts there since on the one hand you've got this spirit and this artist soul, and on the other hand you're working as the head of education for, for an organization that wants to bring humanity into technology. So it's an interesting combination of things.

Yeah, I mean, this organization, I think exists out of necessity and out of frustration with the way that things are in the way that they're headed. A good way of looking at this is like when the commodity is time. Like when that is, we get back to time here, when that is the thing that is so related to profits with advertising. It's really hard for these companies even when they're talking of like, yeah, we want to make the world more open and connected, bring people closer together. Even when that's like the vague mission when the thing that's getting measured is how much of your time did we get? And I need to look at you as a, you know, X year old male who has 25, who, sorry, has 24 hours in his day. And I need more of that time this year than I got last year in order to keep my shareholders happy. It's just, it's very hard for that system to look at you as a human being with like thoughts and hopes and dreams and things you want to accomplish when time is such a deep commodity. And the downstream consequences of that have been really, have been really severe. It's like when you, it seems like when you point, I mean, I could go on for a long time about this and we don't have that time, but when you point these machine learning algorithms at systems that distribute information to 2 billion people, it seems like those systems learn what works for you. What is the type of information that is most likely to kind of keep you engaged in watching or scrolling or liking. And it doesn't matter to the system what that information is. So in the tech, it tends to push us to the extremes of whatever ideas we're most likely to believe. So one good example of this is Zeynep Tufetsky, who's a disinformation researcher. She, like, when she was researching the Donald Trump rallies, she went to watch a YouTube video of them and she was very quickly pushed towards white supremacy in the recommendation algorithms. And those are not the same thing, like watching Trump videos and white supremacy. But you're very quickly pushed in that Direction. It's not just Trump. It's like, same thing happens with, like, a Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton video and the conspiracy left. And it's not just even politics. It's like if you. If you, like, watch a video about being a vegetarian, the algorithms start pushing you towards veganism. She says it very well and that it's like, you're never hardcore enough for YouTube. And so, I mean, I'm. I'm really. That's one of the things I'm most nervous about is like, 2 billion people being pushed towards the extreme of their ideas and being so certain, because we look through our little screens and our window to the world, and even when it's not that we're talking to our friends who are looking through their screens and their windows to the world. So we get put in these, like, we. It creates the certainty that we know what's going on, we know what's best for the world. And God, can you believe how stupid those other people are who just don't get it? And when you have 2 billion people thinking that way, I just. I get nervous about what direction that's pushing the world and the state of news and the state of information in. And I very much want us to create technology that's actually thinking about human values, that's actually thinking about human goals and helping us achieve them and really getting on the same team for the most brilliant algorithms that were ever created so that they're not working against us, so that they're not using us and farming us, but working for us and trying to help us live the lives we want to live.

Yeah, it's really interesting because as a lawyer, years and years ago, I remember part of. Part of the criminal code is this thing called inciting a riot. And it's so. It almost sounds like the design of those. Those systems or the algorithm that that is distributing information is intended to sort of throw wood on a fire. And, and so what's the, you know, what is the fire that.

It's.

That it's stoking. But yeah, it's. It's. It's. There's. There's def. When. When that's done without a governor or, you know, some sort of a collar to say, well, is this ethical or is this moral? To throw another log on a fire where people are in riotous emotion about something? Is that. Does that make sense? Does that make sense to a human being who'd be examining it through the lens of a different set of. Of parameters than a machine would? I think there's Definitely some. So do you know of any safeguards to that kind of a thing? Or is it once the algorithm is running? It's sort of just running without any human intervention?

I have to duck off in a minute, and I definitely cannot answer that question in a minute. Okay, but maybe we table that one for another discussion. But it's. It's a challenging question and the right question.

Yeah. All right. Well, listen, Max, I have so enjoyed this conversation, and I really appreciate that you shared some of your art and your words with all of us. There'll be more information about Max Stossel in our show notes. So, everybody, I hope you enjoyed this conversation, but whether you did or you didn't, we'd love to hear from you anyway. I mean, the feedback is oxygen for us. So please feel free to leave a review on itunes. You can also go to AdamMarkel.com podcast and leave a comment, and we'll reply to that comment right there. I'm going to also remind everybody that today was a blessing. We all got to wake up. I know that for certain, there's not everything, not too many things, I know for certain, but the fact that you are listening to this right now means you have woken up, and that was a blessing. And of course, there's no guarantee that we get to wake up again tomorrow, but that's my hope and. And even my prayer. So when you wake up tomorrow, as I know you will, please feel grateful for that. Feel that blessing alive and well in your body and in your mind and in your heart, in your soul tomorrow, because it is something truly special. And if you're inclined in that. That state of gratitude to say these words out loud, I welcome you to do it, Max. You'll remember these words, I think, because this was the subject of my TED Talk back in September in Lake Tahoe. The words are, I love my life. I love my life. I love my life. It has been a blessing. Thanks again, Max. It's been a pleasure to have you on the show today.

Thanks so much for having me.

Yeah, truly great, everybody. Have a wonderful rest of your day, your evening, wherever it is. We're finding you. We'll see you soon. Ciao for now, everybody.

Bye bye.

Thanks for listening, everyone. We hope you now have the tools and greater insights to navigate your own Pivot. Help us inspire others by sharing this episode and leaving your comments over@adammarkel.com podcasts for more tips, strategies and support as you consciously pivot into a new business and lifestyle you love, join our Pivot community on facebook@pivotfb.com.

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