From Burnout To Brilliance: The CEO's Crucial Role In Workplace Evolution With Dr. Jonathan Baktari

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day, we face change, stress, and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markell and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change. Proof.

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Change Proof podcast. I'm your host, Adam Markell, and today we have Jonathan Bakhtari. Dr. Bakhtari is a CEO, a vaccine expert, and a physician with specialties in internal pulmonary and critical care medicine. With that background, Dr. Bakhtari has launched multiple innovative startups that leverage technology that expands and disrupts treatment traditional markets. Also focusing on growing a corporate culture that empowers leadership and staff to innovate. I know you're going to love this conversation with Dr. Baktari. Jonathan is a. He's a special guy. He's got very interesting insights on so many things. So sit back, enjoy this conversation I have with Dr. Jonathan Bakhtari. All right, Jonathan, to say that you have an impressive CV or bio is sort of putting it mildly. You're very accomplished person professionally and, and personally. And what I'm going to ask you now, it, it sort of relates to that bio, but, but also is different. So what is one thing that is not part of your standard introduction, your bio that you would love for our audience to know about you? So one thing that's not written in that bio that you would love for people to know about you?

I think in terms of profession, over the years, I've become a mentor to so many people and I've been lucky enough to get involved and change people's lives in terms of professionally, especially to make them grow and become leaders. And that kind of, kind of slips through the crack of this sort of professional mentor. You know, there are people I've been mentoring for decades, and that's a real, real important thing for any organization and something I'm very proud of. And it's amazing to see some of the people that I've had a chance to work with blossom into, you know, just these amazing professionals. And they started off just, just beginning their career, not knowing and giving them direction and giving them the skills by the mentoring process. You know, just having deep, long conversations about I view top view kind of things that they need to understand. That's been a joy. And I, yeah, obviously that doesn't fall into the bio anywhere, but. And it's been tremendous amount of fun.

Yeah. And you know, it's immediately what's coming up for me is just in the, in the environment of work today, we have a lot of new, new, new relationships to, to the way in which we work. Obviously before the pandemic, everybody was sort of in the office. It was very rare in a traditional setting for people to work other than, you know, here and there, a little bit outside of the office, we're primarily there and now we're primarily not there. At least, you know, at the moment, there's hybrid and fully remote and, and very few organizations that have gotten everybody back in the office to where they were before the pandemic. So my question to you has to do with mentorship at the outset. Do you think, do you see anything that is either anecdotal evidence of it or, or something that's more scientific or just your thoughts on where will mentorship be, do you think, as a result of this, this new situation where, where even the newest of our employees that are coming into the workforce, the youngest of those folks perhaps just coming out of college or grad school or something like that, or, you know, wherever, but that they are, are not spending time in a physical office with a senior level leader that might become their mentor. What's going to happen to mentorship, do you think?

Yeah, well, you know, I have a contrarian view on this whole work from home kind of thing because, you know, even during the pandemic, like on my podcast, you know, when everybody was at home and you know, I'd get interviewed and like, well, is this the wave of the future? You know, office buildings are going away and, you know, everyone's going from home. And I really took a contrarian view on it. I, I said, first of all, you know, 60, 70% of people can't work from home anyway. When you look at the whole workforce, if you're a waitress or you're doing construction or whatever, you can't work home. So practically speaking, you know, I think it's, the whole concept is slightly overblown because I think some people like myself or whatever may be in industries where it could work, but the vast majority of industries that doesn't work. I mean, if you're, you know, like I said, in construction or service industry, or you work at the ballpark or whatever, you're not going to work for. So that's number one. So if you take 60, 70% of the workforce out of it, we're talking about a smaller group. And within that group, obviously, you know, the trend has been to bring them back. So my personal Feeling. Yes. Will there be, you know, 5, 10% of the workforce that has now moved the home? Yes. But in terms of looking at the workforce, I actually see it slowly creeping back. And you see it, you know, Twitter making announcement. I agree. You got to come back. Yes. Will it be tough to claw all of them back? Yes. But the way I view it, it's coming back. I mean, at the end of the day, the creativity, the culture of the things we're about to talk about, mentorship, you can't just throw that out the window. And to some level it is. And then the last thing that I think most senior level people now understand about people who work remote, while there is a good 5, 10, 15% that are just kicking butt at home, let's be honest, there's another 80% that are walking the dog, getting a second job, whatever it is. So, you know, I don't have this romantic vision of working at home now. Yes. If you're a bookkeeper, sorry to be.

Laughing, but I mean, I'm not sorry. That's, to me, that's, that's hysterical. Just the idea that there's somebody who's listening to this right now going, oh, my God, is that what's, is that what's really going on? My people that I'm paying money to, they're, they're walking the dog, they're getting a second job.

Yeah, it's, I mean, look, no, but that's the thing. They'll take the one or two outliers that are killing it at home who are, because of the freedom that their productivity has gone through the roof. Yes, but then everyone wants to point out to the outlier, you and I have had lunch with people who are working from home, and come on, they tell us like, oh, it's been great, you know, you know, I. Spending more time with this and I'm, I picked up this hobby and I'm doing this and, and I'm, I'm doing some consulting work on the side. I've had those lunches and I, I hear them telling. Those are anecdotes. But, but I think my anecdotes are supported by, you know, the leadership, you know, in a lot of these organizations coming to that real day. And even if the productivity is the same, you still, you know, the old conversations at the water cooler, metaphorically, like, hey, how are we going to deal with this client? You know, I think I've dealt with them before. I think, you know, this is the way you should approach, you know, you, you take all. Is That a win? I, you know, I, I just think, I, I know I'm such a contrarian, but how is that a win? Missing out on those conversations. It can't be just by definition. So I think, I think we're wrapped up in the romance of this new age. You know, why didn't we think of this earlier thing? But I, I, I think it's, it probably in a decade from now it'll be a remnant of, of COVID and you know, yes, there will be a handful of people, but I think it will slowly fade away.

Well, we're going to have to get back together in a decade because I find in my, where my instincts have me leading, it's like it's neither going to be before COVID or the way it is right now. It'll be some blend of the two, you know, not either or, but both, let's say. And for sure, I think the jury's still out on productivity. I mean, I'm just going to, you know, I haven't seen anything that's definitive either way, frankly, about the productivity piece. So let's just say we'll see. There are people who take advantage and any, any excuse to procrastinate or be, I don't know, suppose, lazy on somebody else's dime. There will always be that small, I think percentage of folks, but, but I think a lot of people have just figured out, or are figuring out how they work best know how do they work well, which just happens to be the name of our company. So it's kind of funny. But the other aspect, and this is the one that, and I think you spoke to, you know, that water cooler conversation that how do we handle this client situation? I remember getting into my work early on and, and it was sort of an apprenticeship, they didn't call it right in the legal world in, in law, it wasn't that you were sort of an in, you know, like as an intern really, but older attorneys took me under, or one particular attorney took me under his wing and, and I learned so much by being in proximity to him. I remember he would pop into my like little office, you know, and he'd stick his head in the, in the door at about 4 o' clock in the afternoon and ask me, you know, kind of a snide but funny question about what I was so busy doing, you know, right now. I hadn't come out of my little hovel all day long. And he wanted to know, you know, what I was so busy, what was so important that I, that I was Buried in there, you know, so the mentorship piece, I can't imagine that the mentorship component is any easier when you're not in proximity physically. Right.

I think you're arguing my case because, look, I am the productivity thing on the side, which I'm going to disagree with you. I think the data isn't. But all right. But no. And the problem is, you know, we all kind of make decisions based on our own anecdote. But I think globally speaking, the productivity is a big issue. And then secondly. Yeah. This mentorship, whether you want to call it mentorship or, you know, I always used to say even the idle chatter of your mentors is worth hearing. Even the idle chatter. Like, how do they deal with, you know, an annoying situation or how do they deal with the surprise that shows up? You know, like, I'm sure when you and I were, you know, in our younger stages of our career, something would come out of the blue and we think it was a catastrophe. And then our mentor would say, I don't sweat this one. Me, totally. Where are those conversations? So when you really put it all together, I, you know, I'm not sure. Again, I'm such a contrarian on this issue. I'm not sure the jury's out. I mean, I think if you talk to high level HR people, especially the bigger companies, certainly where they have the data because they can measure the productivity, I'm not sure that the jury's out. There's a massive impact on productivity. Again, I think you and I hang out with the outliers who are killing it at home, but the outliers don't make the data. So that's overall perspective.

Right. Well, well, well, good. I mean, I think, I think we'll be able to do a part two on this one.

Okay.

Yeah, but I love that comment. Or that, that quote right there. I'm going to repeat it for our audience and I want to remember it too, that the idle chatter of mentors is worth hearing. I think it was a study in the, in the 70s that was called weak ties. It was the weak tie connection. It was a way in which they were measuring not productivity, but innovation. In the early 70s, I think they were using maybe 3M and some other companies that were pretty innovative at that point in time. And they said that, that often some of the greatest innovations occurred when these random collisions of people occurred at the quote, you know, at the water cooler in the break room. And so when somebody from accounting ran into somebody from marketing.

Right.

These folks were not in each other's silos and weren't routinely conversing about things. Yeah, just had that, like you said, that idle chatter, that conversation randomly, all of a sudden. Oh, you know, like a light bulb goes off.

Yeah. So, Adam, you're arguing my point. I'm going to, I'm going. No, Reef. I'm going to give you a little grief on that.

We're on the same side of things. I, I think that, that. And I want to, I want to use it for a different purpose. Our work, you and I both work in, in the sense of how to create greater organizational health, let's say overall health. And, and you might not use that term, even though you are a, you know, physician and that was your, your area of expertise, and you pivoted. And I want to get back to that. I want to get to that story of your own personal pivot. I pivoted out of the law, Worked in that, that arena for 18 years. And, and I was not happy a lot of that time, but I was mostly just. I was really burned out when I made the decision, which didn't even seem like I had a choice in it. When I, when I actually left the practice of law, I was on a collision course with the quote, you know, the classic midlife crisis. And instead I had a bit of a midlife calling and reinvention. And you and I share this very much share this in common. But at the time that that occurred, the reason why it was dire and, and I didn't feel like I even had a choice, honestly, was because I was burnt out. And the, the level of burnout in the corporate space today has only risen, and it has risen exponentially over the last few years, and we're seeing it in a lot of different ways. And so when, when I'm asking you about, you know, how people work, well, whether it's going to be in the office, going to be in some other remote or hybrid capacity, I'm thinking in terms of sustainability. I'm thinking in terms of longevity. And if I knew then, as a lawyer, because people, especially lawyers, ask me this all the time, If I knew then what I know now about how to take care of myself, how to create greater resiliency using certain rituals, I could have stayed in the law without having to have made that pivot. I'm glad I didn't, but I could have, like.

What strategies would you have used to prolong or avoid the burnout?

Well, this is, this is a part of the conversation I want to have with you today. So first, let me Let me get your story about your, your own pivot out of what was a very, I want to say, prolific medical career to what you're doing today. And then we're going to talk about. I'd love to talk about wellness and, and resiliency.

Yeah. So, by the way, you know, if I can just comment on what you said. You know, people who get burned out professionally, I have found, fall into two categories. One, people, you know, would not. There are certain people who would not get burned out if their job is only 40 hours a week. So I, I think, you know, like doctors and lawyers who sometimes work 80 hours a week. But the way I used to say it, you know, I don't think I, I ever got to the point where I was burnt out, but I saw it in my colleagues and I, and potentially myself. But I, you know, what I would say to people is like, I have the world's best job the first 40 hours of the week. It's the second 40 hours that, you know, a lot of people hate. And I use the word hate. So when I see people who are burnt out, you know, first question. Now, if you're burnt out working 40 hours a week, then, you know, you obviously don't like your profession or something is wrong. But I categorize people who get burnt out into people who, you know, do you love your job the first 40 hours? And if you love your job the first 40 hours, you're not burnt out, you know, because the occupation is bad. You're. You're burnt out because you're doing it wrong. So, yeah, that's a kind of a distinction for me because I see a lot of doctors who claim they hate medicine, but they only hate it the second 40 hours of the week. The nights, the weekend, the call, rounding on patients Saturday or Sunday afternoon. You know, that's what they hate. And that kind of confabulated is all just, I hate the profession. The second one is that they actually don't like what they're doing, even if it was 40 hours. I mean, that's the second category. I mean, you know, so whenever someone tells me they're burnt out, I always say, well, let me ask you a question. How many, how many hours are you working? Because I think there's a certain amount of resentment after 40 hours because it encroaches into family time, kids time, your wife, your spouse, you're going to the ball game, meeting people at the bar, whatever it is, or, or your yoga class or, you know, once those things gets infringed. On there's almost like a sense of like, okay, now you're taking something away. And the, and how the mind plays tricks with you. Like you, you feel like you. There was something that you had and someone took it away.

Yes.

No. And, and that, that's mindset that something that I already had has been taken away. Not I never had it, I had it, but it's been taken away.

So, so those people who are working home right now feel as though they've been given something meaning they were given the opportunity to walk their dog when, you know, as a way to get out from behind the screen and all that good stuff. And so when, when an organization says to them they have to come back to the office. Now granted, most, most companies are smart enough today to go, let's do this like three days a week, not five or whatever it might be, but at some point, like you say, clawing them back. What they're going to experience are, is a workforce that resists because you're take now taking something.

I know that's, that's very tough. I mean, you have me there. Never give someone just even in negotiation. You know, you're a lawyer, right? You've done deals where you accidentally agreed to something that now you realize you can't agree to trying to claw that back. You know, I actually call it negotiating in bad faith. If you gave me something and you want to take it back, I have a major issue with that. And I think. But that's a different psychology. So, so the new group that you hire, you don't give that to. But my point is, yes, it's a huge lift the cloth. Even give a slight benefit like, okay, vacation, you know, four weeks instead of three weeks. But then you want to claw it back. You can't. And this is, this is just. You can't call. So that's a separate problem. That's an HR issue. You know, how do you over time claw back stuff that you've given? And yes, it can be a huge problem. But, but I think that's an HR issue. But I think the question really is on a high. We're going back to this. But a high level. You know, where is your organization with people working remotely and how it's impacting culture and productivity? Once you've made the decision that's negatively impacting those two things, then of course you have to come up with a strategy. You can't just send out an email and say, oh, starting tomorrow, everyone's working five days a week. So lots of stuff.

Some, some Folks tried that. They were the early ones that ended up, you know, dying.

That's. But then, you know, clawback any benefit or anything. You know what, you can eat at your desk. No, you can't eat at your desk. I mean, wow, okay. This is going to be huge, you know, because you're taking something back.

All right, so I want to get into your story because I think it's a, it's a. Will be a, A place that we can use as a fulcrum, a pivot, if you will itself. So here you are. You go to medical school. I mean, you. Did you want to be. And I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, but did you want to be a doctor when you're a kid? I just.

Oh, yeah, very. Of course.

You have.

In high school. Yeah, very much so.

Because I don't imagine you, you just decide one day you want to be.

That's too much work if you don't really want it for, you know, for the real reason.

Okay, so you wanted to be a doctor and then you pursued that. And, and where did it take you? Let's just get it.

Well, you know, so I got an undergraduate degree. I got, you know, one of these crazy undergraduates. I got two undergraduates degree in biology, psychology. I graduated Phi Beta Kappa, magna cum laude. So obviously I was studying pretty hard. And then I got into Ohio State Medical school, so which is an amazing adventure. And then after that I went to Northwestern University in Chicago for my residency, internship and residency. And then subsequently I was lucky enough to go to UCLA for my fellowship in pulmonary and critical care. So really some really top notch schools, very fortunate, very lucky that, you know, have that kind of excellent training. And then then eventually went to the private practice, joined a private high powered pulmonary critical care group, eventually became a senior partner in that and also then clinical faculty of a couple of med schools or three med schools over my career and. And then slowly spent about five years transitioning away at the top of that, transitioning away into administrative medicine and then more into sort of the private entrepreneurial kind of side of medicine.

So let, let's talk about that for a moment. So I, I mentioned earlier that I was on a, I was on my own sort of critical path to, you know, I could sort of see over the edge. And in looking back at it now, yeah, I think some of it had to do with that, that delta between 40 hours and 80 or 90 hours, there was an element of, you know, when you're doing a three hour commute Every day you can kind of hate your job or hate your life, really.

Right?

Yeah. I'm wearing a shirt says, I love my life. I'm in a very different place than I was then, so. So that's got me thinking a little bit, too. But what was it like for you? Why are you doing the work you're doing today versus, you know, the work you were doing five, five or more years ago?

Well, Doctor, I transitioned, you know, about 10, 15 years ago to teleconnect and actually kind of really love clinical medicine about 10 years ago. But I think for me, a lot of people think it was like an epiphany. Like, you woke up one day and you're like, aha, I'm making a change. It wasn't like that at all. It was more gradual. You know, I joined a committee, and that opened up another door, and that door opened up another door. And actually, I didn't know where it was going to leave. But I think there was this sense that, you know, once you get, you know, become a senior partner and you're, like, sitting there, you're like, okay, well, you've been on this road of growth, and now, like, the road is over because there's nowhere to grow. I mean, where else are you going to go? So I think, for me, I don't know if it was burnout more than wanting to see, well, there's got to be more. And then, as I did more, I think there was this sense that my feeling that, you know, being a doctor meant helping patients. You quickly realize that you could help patients in many ways, right? I mean, you could see them one on one, 10, 15, 20 patients a day, one on one. It helps them. And I think, Doc, in a lot of. I'm going to be honest, I think a lot of doctors go into medicine because they feel it's a calling from God. I mean, there was some version of that. They kind of feel like they're in a special group with special opportunities and privileges to help people. So if. But then if you channel that and say, okay, I can help one person at a time, you know, then some. Somewhere along the line, the light bulb goes off. Like, I can help a lot of people, and, you know, I don't have to be seeing them one on one to do that potentially, or I could do. Initially, I said I would do both. Okay, so I'll go half time and this other halftime, I'll try to make an impact on healthcare care and this. And then again, it was all. It was one door opening up. Another. And then next thing you know, we were starting our own companies. Because, you know, I had this perspective. I had been a clinical doctor, I had worked for insurance companies, I had medical directors for hospitals. So I knew how the hospitals thought. I knew how the insurance companies thought of. I knew the clinical side, I was, I knew the teaching side of it. And then you're like, you know what? Now I have a perspective that I don't think I would have had if I just done clinical medicine. Is there any way I can channel that into something different? And, and that's how it's evolved over many, many years.

Yeah. It's interesting because so many people, you know, they think that, that if they're unhappy in their work, whether it's again, because they hate the 40 hours, you know, the period after 40 hours that they're, they're doing their work or it's some other thing, like it's just not their quote, calling anymore. Might have been earlier, but we change, people change is contrary to what people think we change. And our interests and our, our loves, our desires, these things are fluid. So regardless of, of what that, you know, looks like, a lot of people think that you need to sort of, the moment you realize this isn't, this is what I want to be doing 20 years from now, you got to change something immediately. That wasn't my, my path any more than it was yours. Mine wasn't a jump ship scenario. It took, in fact, about two and a half years. Yours potentially was, was about, or a little longer perhaps, but methodical. I didn't, I didn't tear down one bridge before building another one or crate. You know, I didn't disband my plan A before I had my plan B. I love it. Plan A. Right. And that's in that book Pivot I wrote. So, you know, dispel that, that, that jump ship mentality. I think, I think there's too much risk in that. I'm the risk averse person anyway as a lawyer. Hello. But I also think when there's that much risk, a lot of more fear comes into play.

Yeah, yeah. You know, it's funny. Can I share an anecdote with you? I remember like during this period where I was thinking about changing, I was having dinner with a good friend and I think it was the first time that I expressed my desire openly to kind of go in a different direction.

Which takes some courage among your colleagues to do that.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and we get a lot of funny looks. And then so he said to me, well, you know, what's your plan? How are you going to do it? And I said, well, I had two ideas. I thought, one, I could do something methodical. I kind of described what you just did. Or I said, you know, or I could sell everything I own and take my savings and go be a lifeguard at Club Med in the Caribbean. And I said, it's either plan A or plan B. You know, like, so the first kind of person you were describing where you just, okay, that's it. I'm done. I'm liquidating everything.

I'm.

I'm just going to go. And the reason I pick club bed because, you know, they give you food and shelter and, you know, aid much. You could just.

You just get to live off beads. That's it.

Yeah, Yeah. I just love the beads. So I think. I think those are the two options that I think you and I, you know, chose the. And I actually gave my thing a name. I actually gave it a name because it needed a name so I could work on it. So, like, I'd come home and say, like, this thing that you're describing, that I'm going to build one bridge, but what do you call that? So I actually gave it a name and I called it my Es. And I said, you know, I said, so, you know, like, somebody said, what do you do? Well, I'm working on my Es. And that was sort of the, you know, exit strategy. So once you give it a name, because then you can work on it. Okay, so I'm spending 10 hours a week. And it wasn't exit in the sense that, like, you have burnout exit, but this idea that there has to be more you if you want to impact people on a broader level, you can't do it, in my case, just sitting in an office. So how do you make that bigger impact? So you have to make an exit at some point. Yeah, but like, I love your phrase about, you know, building one bridge report. That. That really was the. Yes.

And what you just said is also the. The most important part of my story. Because when, you know, somebody says, hey, would you go back? Let's.

So if.

If you could have continued, would you, in hindsight, just have continued, given what you know now, which we haven't talked about yet? And I go, no, because even in the work I was doing, which was meaningful, if I'm being perfectly honest, it was. It was mostly meaningful for me and for my family. I mean, I was getting wealthy doing it. And there's nothing wrong with that. I love wealth, that's great. I was helping people, but it was a small number as compared to what I, I learned that I could be doing to help a lot more people, which, by the way, no, no complaints about the money on that side either, but definitely not the sort of the red carpet to wealth that the law provided and that probably, you know, the medical profession on some level provides as well to be, you know, again, really honest about it.

You're right.

Yeah. So, so let's, let's talk about this then from the standpoint of where we meet people today, because our audience, our listenership, combination of people who are working in jobs at various levels, a lot of senior level leaders, middle managers, et cetera, people just getting started, I would assume, as well as some entrepreneurs, some folks in that space. And I think more and more we have to think in terms of the demographic as well, which has gotten, you know, on some level, a little bit of play because millennials have gotten a bad kind of bad rap from older, you know, older parts of the workforce, whether, you know, you know, gen, sorry, Gen Xers or, or baby boomers even. But it's really just the idea that, you know, today we're seeing a shift and we're, we saw it during the pandemic. The great resignation was what it was called. It's now shifted. They're talking about things called quietly quitting. But my understanding is that about 4 million people are leaving their jobs on a monthly basis in the US Talking about North America. And at the height of the pandemic, maybe about four and a half million, which is interesting as a number, but we got to compare it to something. So before the pandemic, on average over 20 years, there was about two and a half million people every month that would leave a job, voluntarily leave a job. So it's a significant change in that. And you go, okay, so inflation, you know, we're going to tie a few things maybe here together, perhaps inflation is quite high. We get that. There's a lot of reasons for that. But now in a rising interest rate environment where inflation should be coming down and probably is and will continue to, the biggest issue is wages. The biggest issue is we have full employment. We have 1.7 jobs. For every person looking for a job, you go, okay, so with 4 million people leaving the workforce, what are they doing to pay the bills? Are they all just living in their parents basement? Is that what's happening? Or is it that, demographically speaking, Gen Z and millennials, younger millennials or even older millennials, I suppose have figured out that if they are unhappy at work that they don't just grin and bear it the way either our generation or our parents generation did. Because we were thinking about I got to be with this company, you know, to get my pension 25, 30 years later or I've got to be with this company because, you know, I don't have another option. These, these young people realize that they can side hustle, they can create, you know, out of the gig economy, they can create money, they could start up their own venture like they see a lot of people doing. I mean, so there's just different options for them than there were for you and I. 15, 20, 30 years.

Sure, yeah.

And I think that's. So I said a few things but I want to get your perspective because you may agree or want to press on some of that, but what is any thoughts on that?

I agree and disagree. I agree on the part. Look, no generation workforce is going to be like the last one. I mean, you know, you know, we were around 80, 100 years ago, we'd be, you know, working in a factory and you know, making widgets and, and you know, working 10 hour days, no benefits. So obviously the whole thing evolves. I just think some of the stuff, you know, like you were talking about, you know, quietly quitting. I just saw an article in the Wall Street Journal about quietly firing because the things, you know, this whole thing kind of comes around eventually, you know, you can only quiet quit. And then I just saw another article about, you know, the amount of money influencers are making is going way down and what have you because of budget cuts. And I just think that, you know, it's sort of like, you know, when, when the dot com thing, oh, it's going to go on forever. The, the crypto, it's going to go on for bitcoin. They're going to keep going, oh, we're going to keep working from home. Everyone's going to be an influencer who's going to have a YouTube channel while you're in the thick of it. It may appear like that, but when the bubble burst and it's not like that anymore, then it becomes obvious. So I hear that, but I'm starting to see a lot of, you know, quietly firing now instead of letting them quietly, quietly quietly fire them and by just moving them into a different position so they will leave. And, and, and again, I think there is some good out of that. I just don't think it is the big train that people think it is. I think at the End of the day, people do need more flexibility. You know, whenever I hire someone or position that I want them to be all in, like you said, like, be part of the organization. You know, next to God and family, this better be the most important thing in your life because this position is like, there's no place to hide, you know, like you're going to be, you know, we need someone that's all in. And the question I always ask them, I said, hey, let me ask you a question. This position requires you to be all in, you know, and it's not more than 40 hours a week, but it's all in. You know, this is not the kind of thing where if you've got three side hustles, you can work on it, you know, simultaneously at work or whatever. And when I say that, I always say it. I said, but here's what I want to know from you, that I catch you at the right time in your life.

Great question.

Because there was a times in my life.

Yeah.

Where you asked me to be all in. I'm like, no, you're like, I'm, you know, I've got this personal thing going on and I. Running an Amazon business out of my garage and whatever, you know, so it's. It's not the perfect time. So. So part of it is you have to, you know, tell people, is this the right time for you to be all in?

And that's such a great question. I want folks to stop your drive if you're driving, pull over, you're on a treadmill. Stop the treadmill for a second. Write that question down. Because when you're interviewing or, you know, people in your company or doing that, like they is a good question to ask people. And I don't think people see that coming either, by the way.

Oh, no, right.

You catch them a little. Little off guard. That's not a standard question you're asking is.

Well, that. What. Listen, I have a whole thing I'm interviewing, and one of the things I talk about, interviews, because interviews are like the most artificial situations you can imagine. You know, the guy at the company is only going to say great things about his company. And the person there is trying to figure out what can I say. But I only want to say good things. But what does he want me to say? I'll say whatever he wants. No information gets really transmitted because, you know, it's like being on your first date. You're not going to tell the person you snore. I mean, why would you? So. So one of the things that we talk about is asking these kind of questions that puts the person on tilt. I don't know if you play poker, but in, in poker they call someone being on tilt and that is after they lose a bad hand. You know, where they, yeah, they had four kings and they thought they were going to win and the other guy's four aces and you thought, you know, you thought you had the thing wrapped up. So that then throws them off and they start betting erratically after that. So after you get, after you ask someone a question that they weren't expecting, I think some of the script that they had falls off and some of your script falls off. Now you have a genuine conversation. And I think the whole idea of how to turn an interview into a genuine conversation and not tell me what I want to hear, and I'm going to tell you how great our company is, like, you're so lucky to even be at this interview. That's not good. So, you know, everyone has to be honest. You know, you have to be honest about the job, about your company, and they have to be. Yeah. So how you get there, that's a whole different podcast. But yeah, so asking them, is this the right time for you? And then I, I give them an out. I said, listen, there were times in my life this wouldn't be right for me. I mean, and there were times where, you know, next to God and family, I was ready to dive right in there. And so I think those kind of questions when you're interviewing, you know, helps the honesty and transparency of what you're looking for. And they can be honest and say, you know what? No, this is not the right time in my life where I'm ready to give you that.

You gave me a great, a great way to dovetail into this last section of our, of the conversation today anyway, by, by focusing on the quality of the question here and, and obviously for the purpose in that context of connection, of how we connect at a real level. So the way I want to do this is to say that in, in our, in our work, we work with organizations to create, to create workplaces and work cultures of well being. And, and one of the ways that we talk about that is in, through this sort of lens of do people think that and feel that you have their back? This does. Somebody who's working in an organization feels though, that organization and its leadership actually has their back sometimes I worship has got your back. Part of that is about really checking in so that you, you're not just superficially asking how you doing you know, like that joke, how you doing? How you doing? Nobody answers the question, at least not where I grew up in New York. You know, you. You'd ask, how you doing? Somebody say, hey, how you doing? Right. Like, that's the way it went. Nobody answered. And today, when you ask somebody that, they go, fine, you know, good hanging in there, whatever. There's not, there's not a real conversation like what you were just saying. What we have to do is, is ask deeper, more incisive, curious questions about not just how people are doing, but what are they doing. What are you doing? You know, So I want to ask you about that now in terms of. Look, we know that, again, statistically speaking, we have people leaving their jobs. That's a fact. We know that burnout, at least from what we're reading about it, that burnout is on. On the rise. Depression is at. At levels we haven't seen in ever, probably anxiety, tremendous issues there, mental health issues that people are facing.

That's.

No, that's not bs. That's not, you know, like, that's the reality of the world we're living in. And it's not just in North America, it's globally. So we feel like, how do we. How do we meet people where they really are. Where they really are as being that sort of, you know, frayed at various points of time has to do with, you know, the responsibility of that company. If you really want to care for people, you've got to really care for people. So I just want to get your perspective on it, because I know you work in, In. In. In developing, helping companies create better cultures, cultures that are more. Well, I'd love to get your thoughts on how we do that today. Is there something you're focused on in your work when you're advising organizations about how to uplift that culture, make that culture stronger? What are you telling folks?

Yeah, you know, that really. It's amazing topic. Thank you for bringing it up. I mean, that's a lot of chords with me. Really so important. I think that actually goes to mentoring, leadership, you know, and, and going to CEOs. I'm about to launch my second season podcast is called Crash Course for CEOs, which focuses on exactly some of the skills that you're talking about. But one of the things I, I talk about, if you're going to be the CEO, and of course you'd be leading that culture, is that what is your real job as a CEO? I think a lot of people think my job is to grow the company. My job is to improve our, you know, profit and loss. She but, but that's not really their job. And that's what I try to tell CEO. Your job is to improve the lives of everyone in your organization, professionally and personally. And if you wake up every morning saying that is my job. Now the argument is that, look, if the company makes more money and you give everyone raises and you know, everyone has more benefits and less work, and if you invest in technology that takes work away from your staff and simultaneously your company makes more money. So I think this, what I call alignment is the CEO and the leadership align with the rest of the organization. If you're only aligned in the sense that you want to suck as much money out of the universe and put it into your company, that's not alignment. But once everyone feels like, hey, the leadership's job is trying to improve my life professionally, personally, you know, they're trying to get me an assistant, they're trying to get me a better office, they're trying to. Now simultaneously those things might make more money for the company, which again, I'll make the argument that will improve everyone's lives financially. So once there's a connection between our company grows, you grow. Which by the way, I'm sure there's some companies that are guilt guilty of not doing that. In other words, their company grows. Nobody else grows. Everyone gets their 3% raise. And you know, but one of the things I tell people is if you're running a company and someone's been with you for three, four or five, you know, certainly 10 years, they better say, oh my gosh, I'd have to take a pay cut to go anywhere else. If your senior people are not saying that, well, either your company sucks and you're not making a lot of money, which case, that's a whole different conversation or you're not handling it right. You know, almost all your senior people better be saying, and not only money, but you know, benefits and what have you, I'd have to, you know, the whole idea of retaining people and keeping them happy is rewarding them for what they've done for the company. You know, that's really the name of the game. You know, if someone's sing, you know, single handedly responsible, tell other CEOs look at someone and say, okay, I lose Susie. How many people would I need to hire to replace her? And people within their organization will say this like, oh, I lose Bill, I lose Susie. We're dead, we're that whole department blown up. Well then you better take care of that person, I mean, you, you know, you, you can't say I need three people to replace Adam if he left the law firm and then not take care of Adam. So it's just common sense. But this is how you have to, to take care of people. So you wake up in the morning, says, my job is to improve the lives of everyone in my organ. That's really my job. Now you do that and it will synchronize with the other things that CEO like.

Exactly. And you said use the word common sense. We know. I guess maybe it was Nietzsche that was supposedly the one that said this, that common sense is in common. But whoever said it, I think it's true. And my question to you is, how many CEOs do you find buy into this before you bring the topic up? Because I think in many corporate situations it's an extraction model. And that's why people are not only more hip to it today. Like our kids, we have four kids and, and everything from 22 to 30 years old, I think. Not, not to do with anything that my wife and I did. I mean, we, I think we did a decent job or whatever. But they're, they're just like a higher, you know, like whatever your lace latest iPhone is or your latest, you know, know, whatever your, your device is, you know, that's, that's the most current software. And these kids that are, that are, are in the workforce, coming into the workforce, the ones that will come in the workforce 10 years from now will have better software than you and I had.

Right.

And, and they are more hip to a lot of things that you and I weren't hip to, including the fact that it's an extraction model in a lot of organizations? Meaning how can I extract the most from a person for the amount that we, that for, for what we invest in them cost, you know, their, their benefits, their salary, all of it. And we will not get to the next level of, of productivity or, or teamwork or anything that.

Well, no, I'm going to give you one additional thing. You know, I, I, I'll just give you many, just one example. I, I remember like 10 years ago, this administrative assistant, you know, knocked on my door and said, oh yeah, hey, Dr. Martori, can do, can I have a couple of minutes of your time? And he goes, I hope you don't mind, but, you know, I was reviewing our website over the weekend and I, I came up with like a hundred grammatical errors and stuff like that. You know, that's not even her job. Like, what's she doing on our website.

And.

And I'm using that as an analogy. This is not extra. You couldn't extract that if you wanted to. How do you extract that level of ownership?

You absolutely cannot. You cannot extract that level of ownership.

You cannot. Right. So the people who try to extract the max are not getting. There's a level beyond that that they're not addressing.

Exactly. So my question to you is, in your work, how often do you see CEOs that have the, quote, common sense to understand what we've been talking about?

Yeah, not that. Okay. Not that often. But the ones that I have the opportunity to coach or influence, and usually they're younger. You know, I think my peers. I don't know, it's awkward for me to kind of be coaching them, but certainly I have a lot of people in their 30s and 40s that are starting their own gig. And, you know, I. They call me, I. I meet with them, have coffee.

And by the way, I mean, don't you just love the fact that. That, again, like somebody in their 30s or. And is. This is a random thing. 20s, 30s, 50s, whatever. It's somebody with an open. An open mind. Right? An open mindset. You could be 80 years old. I mean, Martha Stewart is 83. Okay. It's crazy. And she's like, on the COVID of, you know, Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition, like, magazine or whatever, this next month or something. And she said that when you're. When you're. When you're through changing, you're through. And I thought, man, that's at 83. That's another. That's a person with an open mind. She. She would love what you're saying. She would lean into it, I believe, because that's an. A person with an open mind. But you're right. Like, sometimes you find people that have a fixed mindset, and this is like.

Yeah, but maybe you and I learned that when we were pivoting because the only way we could have pivoted it. Yes. Like, look, you may be the smartest bankruptcy attorney in whatever, New York, whatever, but if you're trying to pivot to become an author, you have to shut up and listen to other people. And I think. I think that's probably what I learned. Or what you learned is like, you know, you cannot be the smartest guy in the room all the time. Now, maybe in court or maybe in that law firm. Yes. Because you were the senior guy. You knew the most. But as soon as you move out of that arena, you know, what I learned is, as I was Transitioning to, you know, that kind of stuff is shut up and listen. Not to everybody, but if you run into Michael Jordan or LeBron James of something, just shut. You know, I always, I give this example of like, listen, let's say LeBron James comes up to you and says, hey, this is how you shoot a basketball. Is there any comeback to that? Is there like, oh, well, you know, that's all good and fine, but have you ever thought about this LeBron? I mean, like. No, shut up. This. You're talking to LeBron James.

Unless he's talking to Michael Jordan. Unless his conversation.

Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan. Yeah. I'm trying to stay current for the, you know, Curry. I was going to say Michael Jordan, but okay, so Michael, if Michael Jordan said this is how you dribble the wall, there's no comeback.

No, I mean if those, I mean if those two guys are talking to each other.

Oh, they're talking. Yeah. Well, if they're talking together, yeah, that'd be, that would be. I'd love to be in that conversation.

Me too.

But for you and I. Now, look, not everyone we meet is going to be a Michael Jordan. But understand, yes, there are people that are going to know more than you. And instead of challenging them, which I see a lot of young people.

Oh, I don't know.

Have you thought that sounds good? But what like. Shut up, shut up. Because you're talking to someone who's been living and breathing it for 20 years, you know, and, and it doesn't. Now, there are people who are older than you that don't know what I'm not saying. Listen to everybody. But once you identify someone who clearly is a leader or has a lot of insight and of course you got to be smart about that. You can't just.

Bob Iger, I don't know if you heard this, but like a couple of years ago when he resigned from being that was the CEO of Disney, it part of the reason that he gave for, for resigning that position. I think he stayed on the board, might even stayed on the chairman ship, I don't know. But I just remember this one aspect that they interviewed him. He said, I stopped listening to the people around me. Like the, A lot of smart people you would imagine around, around that guy in that organization, he stopped listening. And when he said the moment I could sense that I. I always thought I knew more than these folks around me. I knew I had to go. And I thought that was pretty. Wow. Talk about self awareness, right?

Yeah. And maybe that's one of the intangibles. That allows someone to, you know, grow. Because if you always know more than everybody in the room, how do you grow?

Great question. I think we're gonna end it in just a second here, but I want to come back to something that we didn't, we didn't fully touch on. I want to ask you a question about it. So for me I wasn't, I, I wasn't able, I didn't know enough how to take care of myself. When I was a lawyer. I was just a workaholic and I was surrounded by a lot of other workaholics. I know a lot of doctors. I lived in a neighborhood with doctors who while committed to other people's health and wellness were living very unhealthy lives themselves. So not only, you know, high incidence of substance abuse in, in that profession as well as in the legal profession, high incidence of, of thoughts about suicide, you know, attempts, etc, really, really rubbing stuff people don't, don't, I don't think fully recognize. So you know, it, it being a sort of a disconnect, you know, like a shoemaker, who's whose kids, you know, walking around with holes in their shoes kind of thing. So what I know now is that if I could have focused then on taking the kind of breaks, micro breaks and other breaks throughout the day, if I, if I was creating greater harmony between my work life and my non work life, I wasn't, wasn't doing those 90 hour weeks consistently. Now there were just some pretty serious changes that I could have made then that would have helped my practice. I would have been healthier in the practice of law, I imagine. You know, a lot of doctors who also live sort of what might be called, you know, unbalanced lives, you know, they're too heavy, they're pre diabetic or worse or you know, and yet they're dispensing, you know, advice on, on for people to be well. So I guess my question to you is, is there something today that you do on a, on a ritual basis, meaning consistently, habitually to just make sure that you don't end up on that burnout track that you're not, you know, ending up hating, to use your words, hating the, the hours after, you know, between 40 and, and some other number because I work work more than 40 hours this in a week typically. I'm sure you do too. But I love what I do and, and in part it's not, it's what I do, but in part it's also that I've learned how to Take better care of myself in the process of getting things accomplished. Any, you know, what are your thoughts for yourself?

You know, I'm, you know, I'm pretty much a straight area. I do all the things that you would imagine. I kind of a trainer, I go see three times a week, you know, so make sure, you know, we go through the motions of that. And that's really amazing. A lot nice outlet for me. You know, I pray every day, really.

So do I, by the way. And I don't get to often say that in, in a conversation like this, so I thank you for saying that. I do tell.

Yeah, no, it's a, it's a big part of my family's life and my life. You know, we take time out and we pray every day and, and so, you know, that's that in itself. I remember being a psychology major and they were like talking about things that put you in an alpha state, like meditation. But people don't realize that prayer can actually do the same thing as, you know, yoga and meditation. The same alpha waves that are, you know, if you put an EEG on someone and when they're praying, you know, you can actually achieve similar status as though you were, you know, meditating or what have you. So anyway, so there's value in that. And last thing is just to have a lot of balance. You know, we, you know, I had some hobbies that I share with my kids and my wife and we travel and, you know, we try to get away in the summer and you know, travel is a big part of what we do and, and then just, you know, we season tickets for all the sporting events with the kids and it's, you know, so it, it's not just work, work, work. And I still, you know, obviously we work long hours, but if you balance your life with, you know, whether it's season tickets or something that, you know, gives you an outlet and you go to the gym, you work out, you have a trainer or you just run or what have you. So it's not complicated for me. I just do kind of like the ABCs of trying to have a balanced life and, you know, little hobbies here and there. You know, I'm a watch enthusiast. Go figure. You know, I love Seiko watches and I love anything watches. And so just different things that, you know, me and some friends have in common and fun stuff that we do.

Exactly. It's a, it's a alternation. We talk about it in our work as a toggle. A toggle between like a light switch on, off on, off, you know, you toggle between your, your focus, you know, energy and your, and your recovery energy. And there's ways to, to do that in a, in a very, in a, in a very intentional way. So we schedule it. My, my week is mapped out in a lot of ways and I map out the time to think. I don't, I don't put prayer time on. I just have a set time every morning when. That's. When that's what I do. But I have time when I'll in by design and, and in, in, in the, in the ordinary course, I'm going to walk, I'm going to do my legs up the wall. I'm going to drink water. You know, if we become more intentional about how we recover, I think that's when we, we elevate our resilience to almost anything, including the normal stress that we got to expect at a business out of life, you know, out of being in a family, out of being a member of this society, any society, you know, like all of it. So, so first of all, Jonathan, Dr. Bakari, I just want to say thank you for your time today. This was a great conversation and I'm sure people would love for you to come back and visit us again, do part two. We'll dive into it.

I love it. Thanks for having me. It's a bit, a lot of fun and a big honor.

Likewise. Okay, well, everybody, we thank you so much again as always for your, for your, your commitment to the show. And we'd love to know if you've got a question or a comment for myself or, or Dr. Bakari, you can leave a message for us. Go to AdamMarkel.com comment and leave. Leave anything there for us to answer. We'd love to do that. And of course, if this is an episode that, that, that resonated with you, some bells rang. Share it with a friend, a colleague, a family member, somebody else that might, you know, benefit from it, hear it. That's helping us in ways that, you know, of course, widen our audience, but also with the algorithm, help it to be seen and shared with more people. So we thank you for that support and for now, I'll just say be resilient. Have a great rest of your day. And thank you so much again. Well, no doubt that conversation was enjoyable. It was. Certainly was for me. I absolutely venture to say that some of the insights that Dr. Bakhtari is sharing, not about medicine, but about business. Business covers everything, covers health industry and many other industries as well. He talks today with me about mentorship and the value of mentorship and where that sits and fits in this evolving landscape of the workplace, the flexible workplace, the, the workplace that has changed so much over the last few years and what the future looks like when that workplace may well be more virtual. In many ways, the concept of a flexible hybrid work environment is changing that dynamic greatly. We talk about that. We talk about how we mentor young leaders in that landscape. We also got to talk about burnout. We talked about how it is that we've each of us in our own ways experience a tremendous change in our careers and where those pivots have occurred and how we've taken care of ourselves. That he and I very similar and also very different rituals for self care, for developing greater levels of resilience. We talked about the role of the leader, the role of the highest leadership in, in an organization which is that person who's making those day to day decisions, whether that's the President, CEO, etc. Chief Operations Officer Chro, what does that look like? What is the main focus? What is the main job of that person? And I love Dr. Bakhtari's take on this. He said that role, the most important aspect of that role is to take care of your employees, to grow everyone, to improve the lives of everyone in the organization. That is the, the overriding and underpinning responsibility of somebody that is making those important decisions. We really talked about how it is that that we in fact create greater opportunities for, for leadership success, for better outcomes. How how do we ourselves pivot along the way along the path to continue to make better decisions. Right Decisions if you will, that affect as many people as as as we're capable of affecting in a positive way. Of course that that our ripple effect is broader and deeper as well. So much that that I think is valuable in hearing Jonathan's insights and gained from years in in a space of innovation, as a founder, as a leader and as a doctor as well. So I love this conversation. I know it's going to be one that will will be paying dividends and providing value to people for a very long time. If you know somebody that would benefit from hearing some of these insights, please feel free to share this episode with a friend, family member, colleague. 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As always, if you've not already determined how depleted or how in surplus you feel mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, your energy level and you'd like to just figure that part out, you can simply go to resiliencerank.com resiliencerank.com and in three minutes or less you can get the results, snapshot in time of how resilient you are in those four specific zones of resilience. Go to resilience rank.com three minutes or less and you'll get those results for yourself. You can also share that, that link and even the resources with team members, family, friends, et cetera. So again, thank you so much for being a part of this community. Thank you for supporting the podcast and I can't wait to connect with you again sometime soon.

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