From Tragedy To Triumph: Habits For Unbreakable Resilience With Dr. Peter Nieman

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress, and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markell and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change.

Proof.

Hey, everybody, it's Adam Markell, and thank you so much for joining me for another episode of the Change Proof podcast. I've got a. I have a wonderful guest today, somebody that I, I truly admire and respect and, and you're going to love him. His name is Dr. Peter Nieman. He is a pediatrician, an author, and a life coach. He's authored three books. The first one was called Moving Forward. The second one was 101 finish lines Reflections of a Physician during the Quest to conquer 100 marathons. And his most recent book is called Sustained A Life Rewritten After Sudden Misfortune. He has been in private practice since 1987 and continues to see patients in his clinic in Calgary, Canada since December 16, 2009. Peter continues to run every day, thus remaining an active member of the Running Streakers Club of America. His wife, Dr. Zamonski, is a family doctor as well. They live in Calgary and and spend most of their weekends in the Canadian rockies. They have three children, Katie, 28. Matt, who's 25, and John, who's 23. Ben, their youngest child, died by suicide on January 1, 2020. I know that today we are going to cover a number of things, including some discussion of what that tragic loss was like and, and, and what has come since then. So sit back and enjoy my interview with the absolutely amazing Dr. Peter Niemann. Okay, Peter, so it was fun for me just now to read your, your bio and in part because I know you for a number of years and I've read it before and, and I'm always very impressed by the life that you have led. My question to you, however, is what is one thing that is not a part of your bio? This introduction that you would love for people to know about you at the beginning of our conversation today?

Well, Adam, I, I must admit I, I cheated a little bit because I, I, I listen, I'm a fan of your podcast and I know, I know that question was coming, right? So, so I gave it some thought and I, I said to myself a number of things, but let me pick one, and that's probably people on the bio is that I was a Dale Carnegie instructor and I taught the Dale Carnegie Training program, which, which was one of the Highlights of my life. They say Warren Buffett, you know, the famous Warren Buffett, he has one certificate on his wall, and that's his graduation certificate from Dale Carnegie training. So Lee Iacocca was a graduate of Dale Carnegie. And so I, I wear a ring, Instructor's ring, Dale Carnegie instructor's ring. And. Yeah, so that's a bit of an unknown in my life. I don't. Hold that up.

Hold that ring up again for the people that, like, are going to be on YouTube checking this out. That's way cool. It's almost like a. It's like a. A World Series ring or a Super bowl ring. I mean, that's a.

That's a cool World Cup. That ring goes with me wherever I go during all my marathons and daily running and, you know, wherever I go, the ring goes with me. It's like my shadow.

Yeah.

But it actually, to get a bit more serious. It's actually just a physical reminder, Adam, of, of the basic principles of getting along with human beings, showing respect and, and, and, you know, having the confidence to do public speaking and, and, and helping other people to, to become better at not worrying and not. Not having stress and, and in keeping with the theme to. To stay brilliant. Right. Because we live in a, In a world, as you said, that's an interesting state. And who knows what the future is going to hold. It's very uncertain times. Str. So I think, yeah, we do. We do need tools to stay resilient. That's why I'm very excited to talk to you about it today.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more, Peter. We do need tools to stay resilient. And while we're born with some of those tools, I certainly think we might all agree with that. These are, nonetheless, tools that we can acquire at, I believe, any age, and they're vitally important. And I don't think it says anything about a person's inherent value or, or intelligence or worth that they might need to acquire more of those tools. You know, Dale Carnegie wrote that book probably in the 30s. I don't have a copy handy, but I do. I do have a copy of this book right here. So, again, I'm. I'm cheating the people who are just listening a little bit out of the visuals. But I'll describe what I'm holding up. I'm holding up a book called the Snowball, which is a biography of Warren Buffett. Now this, as you can see, this is how I read a book. Right. You can take a look. Right. It's like it's been in the hot tub with me. It's, it's been, it's been in the sauna with me. And I'm just gonna look and see. It's about. Yeah, it's about 800 pages there, give or take. And, and it took me a couple of months to read this thing. But he talks so much in this book about the importance of Dale Carnegie in his life. Yes, yes, because he was a bit of an awkward and still is a bit of an awkward fellow in, in, you know, social settings, et cetera. So I would love to know, like, get your thoughts on the Dale. Because Dale Carnegie, you know, people that are listening to this have never read his book, his seminal book.

Yes.

Yeah. It's sold millions and millions of copies. You should go out and get a copy of that. But I'm asking you, Peter, why. Why should people read that book today?

Well, I, I think Adam, the, the. He basically wrote three books. The one, the. One of his more famous books, of course, is how to Win Friends and Influence People. And, and the title is a bit deceptive because it means you. You want to manipulate people. Some people interpret it as such. And I, I don't see it like that. I see it more, you know, things like the basic stuff that's not going to change, like give honest and sincere appreciation. The best way to win an argument is to avoid it. Give people a noble reputation. You know, remember a person's name is the sweetest name in every language. Make another person feel important and do it sincerely. Be a good listener. Talk more about other people than yourself. Those things are not going to change. I mean, you know, the wars may come and go, the economy may change, but those are the basic things, bedrock principles of getting along with people. And relationships, as we know, are so important. You know, marriages go through ups and downs. My coach, Alan Cohen, who, mutual friend of ours, always talks about relationships as being for a reason, a season or a lifetime. And not all relationships are for a lifetime, unfortunately. But how we relate to people, how we relate to ourselves, determines how resilient we can be. And then, you know, as we get tested, in my case, the loss of a child to suicide, you know, it really squeezes you and what insight comes out. But the other book from Carnegie, two that, that I think would be helpful to people even now is a book that was written In, I believe, 1912, the year the Titanic sank. Now, that's quite a while back, and your story always is easy to remember. And in this case, Carnegie went into the library, New York Public library. And he wanted to see if there were any books on worry because he was a worrier. And he went to the library and he went to the section wo, you know, W O R r y and he was looking, he said there were more books on worms than worry at the time. So he felt he had to write the book how to Stop Worrying and Start Living. And, and that book still GR Bookshelf. And I, I, I'm not a bit, I'm not, I'm a bit. Not like you. I wouldn't take that book in a bathtub. Right. Because I don't want it to get soaked. But it's a, it's a great book that I often look at again and again.

What, what's the title of that book again? Just say it one more time.

How to, how to Stop Worrying and Start Living.

Yeah, I've never read that book. I, I would imagine so. That's 1912. I would think that there are, if you could get a copy, you might have to pay more than, more than the Amazon.

No price for it. Here's the interesting thing, Adam. The book, you know, I, I'm an author. You're an author. And probably our books are going to be out of print at some point, right?

Yeah. And it's in the public domain.

I, I'm not sure, but I, I know you can still get it on Amazon or wherever you buy books and so on. And yeah, it's, it's a great book for people who worry. You know, God knows, sometimes there's things like synchronicity happening and my, my hope is there's at least one person listening to our conversation today who, who is a worrier and who may not have heard about the book because may have, may know about the one about winning friends and influencing people and say, oh, a book on worry. I want to look that up. Of course we want these people to read our books too. Right, Adam?

Well, I'm a big fan of Emmett Fox. I probably have said that more times than people might care to hear again. But he wrote some books back in the day as well. And, and those, those, you know, books are, they, they have, they have a particular, you know, they can have such an impact in our lives and as you say, almost like relationships, you read a book for a reason, a season or a lifetime. There are some books that have been with me almost now for a lifetime and I expect they will be with me for the rest of my life. I, I would think that the Carnegie book might be one of those as well.

Good.

It sounds like it is.

No, you know, in the Jewish tradition, in the Talmud, I think there's a saying. There's a saying that before a man or a woman dies, they. You have to do three things. You have to write a book, plant a tree, and have a child. And each of those three things are very symbolic, you know, in terms of touching future generations. So again, it's planetary. Before the environment was a. Was a big deal.

Yeah.

You know, the Talmud is old and have a child and write a book and writing books, of course, takes a lot of work and, and it's. It's fun. I've done three so far. I just love it. I think we talked about my first book. You and I called Moving Forward. And then Covid happened and I. Another book came out. 101 finish lines. And that. That related to my Quest to do 60 marathons before. Sorry, 100 marathons before age 60. And then the latest book I wrote with this one harvest book was about what it was like as a. As a dad and as a pediatrician and as a human being. Adam. To face the loss of a child. The unexpected loss of a child who decided to leave this world by suic. And so.

Peter, do you mind. Do you mind if we dig into that just a little bit? I'm really glad you brought it up.

And you know, Frank, it'll be my pleasure. I think when we did last talk, Adam would have been 2020. Ben is my son's name. He passed away on January 1, 2020, which was before COVID And so we just, just marked four years anniversary of living life without it, without Ben. I think I said something to you that you picked up on and then repeated to your audience. And I said that when a tragedy hits us, we have really three choices. We can let it destroy us, define us, or develop us. And you wanted to talk more about the development part. I remember. So, yeah, I'd be happy to discuss any of those 3Ds or whichever direction. Direction you want to go.

Well, you know what?

To.

Why don't we pick a different D, since people can go back in the archives to, to. To talk about the development piece of it. But you know, it can destroy us and it can define us. And, and you can do One of those two Ds resonate with you this morning?

I. I think so. You know, there's a Japanese tradition that if. If a piece of pottery breaks, instead of throwing it out.

Right.

Japanese people glue it together with golden glue and it looks beautiful. The name for that is Kintsugi K I N T S U G I Kintsugi and I, I think if, if I were to do an elevator talk about, about the book sustained that I wrote it, it would be just that, that you know, our life got broken when we, when my wife and I, I discovered the, our son's body and, and, and yet the pieces have been glued together. And I've learned so much, Adam. I've learned about resilience, about gratitude. I've learned about the importance of morning rituals, the importance of eating healthy, exercising, having role models, having mentors, constantly looking for opportunities to grow and improve. You know, we all know as a medical doctor, I, I see teenagers who have ptsd, Post traumatic stress syndrome. But there's also what we call post traumatic growth. And when tough things happen, you know, there's a saying, it can make you better or it can make you better. And by the grace of God, I, I believe that this, this tragedy that that befell us has, has actually made me better, not better. I'm very thankful for that and because people say it's one of the worst calamities that can befall any human being. Now, one other thing I made a note here that I wanted to mention.

Pause, pause there. Can you, can you hold that for one second?

Sure.

I just. My follow up is I would love to know how, how that tragedy has defined you because.

Right. And yeah, I can tell you it does not define me as a victim because sometimes when something like this happens, you ask questions like why me? What did we do wrong? What did we deserve? You know, people in the year ahead, God forbid, may be diagnosed with cancer, will get laid off. Their resilience will be tested in many ways. And there's something about human nature, Adam, that I don't understand. And that is, you know, the guilt. The thing about blaming yourself and not, not having self compassion and looking for reasons and sometimes they just are no answers to these things. And then it's very easy to fall into the trap of becoming a victim. You know, blaming your destiny or other people for your situation. And you know what is interesting for me, Adam, is to discover how many other famous people, not that I'm famous, but famous people who, who lost children. Mark. Mark Twain lost three children. Marcus Aurelius lost a child. No, actually lost a number of child. He buried his, his own, his own children. Art Linklater lost a child. Paul Newman lost a child. A lot of famous people, you know, lost children. And, and that did not define them. And so the neat thing too, that that I've discovered is that when you go through a tragedy like this, it's good to hang out with. With people that have had a similar experience. And, And I, I have a second family and I wrote about it in the book Sustained. The first part of the book talks about this family of, of people who also lost children and, and we have become like second family, Adam. And you know, man, there's so much we can talk about today. But I think if you want to stay resilient, I think it's important to have a good group of people you can hang out with. Absolutely. Yeah. Understand you won't judge you, accept you, encourage you and just be there for you when you need them.

So the book is sustained a life, rewritten after sudden misfortune. So back just to that question of how it has defined you, I would say from what you've said to me, it has made you better. Not bitter, but better. And that's an odd thing. I just want to. I want to put a, you know, take a moment here to sit with that, that, that when something that is so tragic and awful and there's almost, I would say, no words. Having, you know, being a parent myself, I. I just couldn't imagine finding words for. For what it would feel like to lose. To lose a child under any circumstances.

So.

For it to make you better seems counterintuitive. It feels counterintuitive. And yet that's what I'm hearing from you, that you are. That you are better not bitter as a result.

I think so. You know, here's. Here's a quote from the book that I, if, if, if, if I may, I just want to read this. It came from a. An ancient, ancient philosopher called as Clickers. And he said, he who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart. And in despair against our will will come wisdom by the awesome grace of God. And that was. That was written thousands of years ago. You know, the. The thing that he who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the hard and in despair against our will. This is not what we wanted, but it's what we got against our. Such a catastrophe or calamity befell us. And. And with that comes wisdom. And why. Why it is so, Adam. I don't know how the who designed the universe that way, but it is. It is incredibly true that if you have an easy life, you're not going to grow as you have a tough life.

It's if we had our choice, I think we, we'd all choose more comfort. We would choose the easier path and.

Absolutely.

And I, I think that's, there's nothing wrong or unusual about that. I'm not making a judgment for anybody that, that, for any of us in, in regard to that. But sometimes there's a greater force at play that puts that, that creates this transformation. It's very much a cliche to bring to, to use this as an analogy, but I mean it's so easy, it's so, it's so on point to, to look at the, the way a butterfly emerges. How a butterfly is, is the, the net result of excruciating and excruciating, excruciating metamorphosis for, for the, the lowly caterpillar. So you know, in many ways I think we are, we are that, that creature, that caterpillar. Maybe not so lowly but, but perhaps just divine and, and perfect as we are. Yet, and yet metamorphosis has, is, is in our destiny. It's part of our reason for being our raison debt. I mean it's, and if, and if you resist it, and so many people do resist the metamorphosis, perhaps that's the, you know, the, the quiet desperation. I forget who wrote that line. It's been quoted, you know, often of course, that, you know, everywhere people lead lives of quiet desperation. I think perhaps that's an element of that quiet desperation is to, to know that somehow or another something, you know, that you haven't fulfilled your, your purpose because on some level you've, you've resisted the metamorphosis, which is painful, as you said.

Yes. And you know, in, in, I think you know by now we've talked about, you know, the role of faith and where we're all coming from and people confuse faith and spirituality and religion. But, but I, I, I'm just going to be raw with you. For me, I, I, I'm coming from a, a Christian tradition and it may offend some people. But, but I think, you know, let me explain. I, I want to be like Mr. Rogers, you know, the TV guy. Mr. Rogers. Like that to me is a great example of being kind, being nice and treating people with respect and, and being helpful and you know, that that's the kind of faith based person I want to be. But I also talk a lot about Buddhism and sometimes people think I'm a Buddhist, but I'm, I'm not. But you, what you just said, Adam, is sometimes we suffer more because we cling Right. And that's one of the. One of the principles of Buddhism is that we. They call it the second dart or the second arrow. The first arrow is the loss, the. The disappointment, the bad news, the divorce, the cancer diagnosis, the rebellious children, endless list of possibilities. And then we inflict upon ourselves that second arrow where we wish for things to be different when it cannot be. I mean, there are days, Adam, when I walk by my son's bedroom and we left his room just the way it is. Haven't touched it. Four years later, I'm not sure if we'll ever, you know, do something about that room. Maybe when we sell the house. I don't know. I. I haven't thought that far. But then. Then I catch myself saying, I, I wish it could have been different. And then I realized, no, it is never going to be the same again. It's ineffable. Ineffable. And it is what it is. It is. So it cannot be otherwise. And, you know, that's one of the problems in life is we what. What they say, what we resist will persist. And so if you resist growth, if you resist pain, if you res. And you always want to be comfortable, then. Then you're going to suffer. It's just a fact.

Yes.

Life is not fair. Plans change, people disappoint you. And so, like it or not, you know, you just have to adjust to what, what is, what has happened.

And again, we. We've been speaking in, in some of these, you know, sharing some of these statements that people may have heard of, maybe they haven't. I would imagine some folks have jotted down and written some things, or at least made mental notes of things like that you've shared, for example, the, the one I've repeated a few times now that you can be bitter or you can be better as a result of something. And it sounds, you know, it's simplistic, but yet it's also profound. You know, I think another one of those has to do with the word suffering, because I, I believe that suffering on some level. And again, let's not split hairs about it. We do, we do enough of that these days, you know, with, with the gotcha police out there. But suffering is optional. That's what I, I like to think of it. We. We can experience pain and not be in suffering, in my opinion. Pain, Pain. Pain is something that is inevitable. Suffering is, Is optional. And that is a. That's strictly about your mental outlook around it. And I think that's a, That's a, A really powerful distinction that, that when you apply it, when you're able to bring consciousness to it, to a moment in your life that is difficult, excruciating even. Then it can be the difference between how do I get, how, how will I emerge nice from, from this versus I see no way out. I have no way out. I want to, I want to change gears just a little bit because you and I could continue down this road because we are so kindred spirits, us and, and I know we can talk about this stuff a long while, but I want to talk about, let's talk about the running and, and in part I want to do that selfishly, Peter, because I've been reading something and it's just, you know, the universe is just so, so cagey. So, so, you know, just quirky and, and, and, and, and such a mystery. And I, I say universe, but I also for me the language is God. I, I just, I don't have a problem. Not only don't I have a problem, I love God. I mean it's, you know, I just, I'm not a, I'm not a fan of religion personally. And that's not to bash any, any religion, not even the one I grew up in. You know, it's just that I'm, that's just not how I'm, that's how I'm baked today. I like, I like so many aspects of, of all of them. And, and the idea that you can integrate wisdom and knowledge and spirituality in, in so many different ways and not be relegated to one discipline or another, I think it's just it, it appeals to me because I'm a bit of an iconoclast and I, I'm not a big rule guy and I, I don't like being hemmed in by, by convent conventions. So, you know, that's just me. You know, people don't have to buy that. But the, the interesting thing is for me, I'm reading, I just started reading this book. So we shared a few book titles today. It's, it's called Shoe Dog. And I had said to you before we started the recording, I wanted to ask you about saying I want to tell you what it was. They started reading this book, Shoe Dog, which is pretty recent book. It's a memoir, business memoir by Phil Knight, who is the founder of the company. Yeah, exactly. Which, when it was founded, when he started it in 1962 or three thereabouts, it was called Blue Ribbon, which was, which was a made up name. So first of all I wanted to ask you have you read it. What do you know of it? I'm only about a third of the way through right now. But for people that don't know about you more, you know, you are now December 16th. Of. Of. And you've got to give me the year. Here is December 16th is our son Max's birthday. He just celebrated his 25th. But December 16th has a particular importance in your life as well as, as someone who runs.

Yes.

What is that date? And then could you tell us what it means to you today?

Absolutely, I'd be glad to do that. So, yeah, in 2009, Adam, I. Well, first of all, I did the Boston Marathon twice. And then in 1988 and 19, sorry, 1998 and 1999. And then I wanted to get back to Boston, and I always just missed the qualifying time by a minute or two or three. Got to a point where I said, man, I'm getting a bit older here. I'm going to try to run 100 marathons by the time I'm 60. So far, I've done 114. No injuries, thank God. And then. But I also said, listen, this is a goal that's very doable. What if I, for the rest of my life, don't skip a single day, run every day for the rest of my life until I take my last breath? And so I made that decision on 16th December 2009, just celebrated 14 years of running. And today marks day 515-13-25132 of consecutive days of running. So I was debating when you, When I knew you're gonna ask me about, you know, what is not in your bio. I, I was debating, am I going to tell you I'm also known as a streaker, But I thought that would be dangerous because people will misunderstand. But there is such a thing as a streaking association. But it's running streak association. Absolutely terrific. I, I, this morning is a great example of, you know, I went out, it's in Canada, it's a bit cold, it's winter. But, but, you know, 10 minutes into my run, and I do use Nikes, by the way, and always have been, you know, it's just, it's not just like religion, right? You, you. It's not for everybody. And, you know, there are a lot of choices. But as I was lacing up my running shoes and heading out of the door and looking toward the east and seeing the dawn there, I said to myself, you know, this is symbolic of, Of a great day coming, and what a privilege to take A breath. What a privilege to take an in breath and outbreath. What a privilege to think, to meditate while I run, to just enjoy my body, enjoy my health, enjoy my fitness. And of course, you know, looking forward to the podcast. So the running part is important, but it's, it's the return of the investment that really helps me. Many of my books that I wrote, you know, the best ideas I got when I was, was out there running the endorphins flow. You know, blood flow to the brain is better. One of my favorite books is a book called Spark, written by a doctor at Harvard. And he talks about how exercise can help us be resilient, not depressed and just, I think his name is John Ratty. It's called Spark. But yeah, we'll make sure we get.

That in the show notes as well.

Yeah, I think it'd be great to, to see. I may have it in my study here. I'll just quickly take a look in a minute or so. But here's the deal. People ask me, why do you do it? Do you do it for ego issues? Do you do, to brag? Do you do it because you're boring? And you know, some people say you should rest, you should take some days off, but I don't see it that way, Adam. I mean, we don't take a break from brushing our teeth every day or getting a good night's sleep every night. And once it becomes part of a habit, part of a lifestyle, and, and you don't almost have to think about it, it's, it's just a beautiful place to be at, you know, and I, I, I encourage to, to the program to, to pick something that they care about and, and make it something they can do consistently. Now, you don't have to do it every day, but at least maybe once a week or twice a week or whatever. Yeah, dude, I know you, you really do believe in the importance of gratitude. And as you say, we kindred spirits, you know, grateful people are often optimistic and happy. It's very, very difficult to find a depressed person who's grateful. And I think gratitude is so important. So I'm very thankful that I can run. I'm looking forward to many more years of running and, and God willing, you know, if I'm healthy, I'm going to do my part, and I'm hoping God will do his party. Do you remember there was a guy who was running for the United States and it was an endurance athlete. I think he was a Christian, and he prayed a prayer that went something like this. Dear God, you pick up my legs, I will put them down into the easy part. It's a team effort, right?

It's a team effort. I couldn't agree more. So you had said to me before we hit the record button, you were mentioning something about gratitude and you referred to a podcast that we just published a little bit ago. It was kind of a year end, year beginning solo. So it was just, just me. I made everybody suffer, suffer just to listen to me for 20 or so minutes, you know, as opposed to the brilliant people I get to interview. I talked about this concept of getting, getting the moment right. So you know, could you share just your thoughts on that concept and, and how you apply it or use it in your, in your daily practices?

Let me just quickly hold up this book here. Oh, you found it Spark in my clinic here.

So there's John Ratty. Yeah. Maryland.

Put in the show notes. Yeah, I think what, what you said. And by the way, I know you self deprecating when you say you tortured people this. So they listen to you some. Sometimes there's a time to have a guest and sometimes there's a time to do what you did. And I, I thoroughly enjoyed listening to you and took notes and you. And, and what, what jumped out for me was this moment, to get this moment right. And, and I, it obviously is going to mean different things to different people. But, but to me, Adam, I think it's important. Like Eckhart Tolle teaches is that we, we are you know, human beings having a spiritual experience. And, and so he says that, you know, sometimes just being, just not doing, but being is, is important. And to be in the moment, to be present, to be grateful, to know that, you know, you have a breath and, and to understand that you're more than just what you see on the outside. You're more than just form. I think basically if we get this moment right, I would almost say like this shirt that I'm wearing here, this, this button that I'm touching right now is the top button. And when, when, when all of us get dressed in the morning and you know, while you're wearing a T shirt, but I'm sure sometimes you do wear a shirt. The key thing is to get that button right because if you get that button in the right hole, all the other buttons subsequently will, will fall into place. And I think that is the moment of the now. If we can get the now, this moment right with a good attitude, with what I call my MVP principle, which is, you know, we, we think of MVP as most valuable player in sport, the World Series or the super bowl or whatever. But. But in my mind, M stands for my motives, V stands for my values, and P for my priorities. So, you know, if I can get this moment right with the right motives, the right values, the right priorities, then just like this button concept, all the other things will fall into place.

Yeah, I, I'm writing down what you're saying because I just. I just love the nuance there. So in this podcast, I shared that from my standpoint with the world being what the world is, which is the world, we've, you know, it's the world. It's always been what it is. That's just the obvious.

But.

But it, but it feels challenging now and it, and people are, are really. People are in a great deal of confusion and anxiety and we see that, we hear that. We can't ignore it. I don't want to ignore it. So I, I chose to speak to it a little bit and have, I guess the. Be being audacious enough to. To share some thoughts on. On something so complex as that. But to me, it was, you know, keeping it simple is, is to recognize that there's, that we, we all feel this heavy weight in the ways that we feel it, and there's tremendous responsibility on our shoulders. And, and yet my belief system says to me that the only thing we need to. To actually do, the only duty we have, the only true responsibility we have is to get. Is to get this moment right. And, and if you could imagine a world where that was the only singular focus of everyone, to get this moment right, what would that mean to us, to each of us individually, and what would that mean to the world collectively?

Well, I think there'll be definitely less suffering. There'll be more of the, you know, the, the. The four Brahma Viharas in, In Buddhism, the four Brahma Viharas are known also as the four immeasurable truths, which is, you know, to have love, have compassion, to have joy, and to have equanimity, which is a state of. In between, neither too excited or too, too sad to have a balance. And I think, you know, imagine. Imagine a world where those four qualities are, Are at work more because we get the moment right. They'll be, they'll be definitely. It'll be close to a perfect world, but I mean, of course, we live in an imperfect world, but it's, it's something to aspire to, right? It's something that, that we should all try to show more of. You know, can you have what is called sympathetic joy. For example, when I look at your books, when I watch your guests, your podcasts, when, when, when your wife and you post pictures on, on Facebook about your family, man, I can look at that and be happy for you, right? That's called sympathetic joy. I'm not going to sit there and say, geez, you know, their kids are alive and, and I lost a child. That's not how I think. So to have sympathetic joy is, is an incredible quality. And can you have too much of it? No. Can you have too much inner peace? No. Can you have too much love toward other people? No. Can you have too much compassion toward others and yourself? No. So that's, that's why the Buddha called it the absolutely immeasurable truth. There's no, no limit there.

Well, I, I, I would, I would say people maybe don't, don't, you know, might, might subconsciously, unconsciously take, take exception with the fact that, you know, with the statement you can't, can you have too much compassion for yourself? Because I think people don't. At least my experience of, of myself first and foremost and, and those that I'm closest to that, we, we withhold compassion. We withhold it from ourselves.

Oh, so true.

You know, and we are so quick to judge both ourselves and others. And so these are the things we work on. You know, to me, when I say get the moment right, that if the only thing we were responsible for was to get the moment right, we have to solve the world's problems. We don't have to, you know, correct, you know, correct someone or, or change someone or change something necessarily, but in that moment, what does it mean to get, to get, to get that, that breath right, to get your breath right, to get your thought right, you know, and if you can do that, if you can just get your thought right, first and foremost, yes, then, then you are, you are, you are on the right foot. You are, you're giving yourself your, to use your great analogy, that wonderful example, you get the first button and, and when you get that first button right, it's so easy for the other buttons to be aligned, to be, you know, more, more easily. And so in an alignment. So to me, so much of the complication of life is, is difficult because we can't find this, the simple truth in it. What is this? What is the simple truth? The objective truth, if you're lucky, you know, to find that man, that's, that's.

That does set us free absolutely, you know, and, and, and free from, you know, Suffering and. And in a place of peace and. And it takes work. You know, here's another thing I, I just feel like we need to share. I know soon, but I'm just, as I'm sitting here, reminded of a meditation I did one morning before I went for my run. And I'm going to share it with. With you in the audience, hopefully, because it'll land for you the way it landed for me, because it's a visual image and it's a very important one. Imagine it goes like this. In the center is a green dot. Around the green dot is an orange circle. And around the. Sorry, a yellow circle. And around the yellow circle is a big red circle. So an outside, this big red circle. Then the, The. The yellow circle, and then in the middle, a green dot. And what that represents, Adam, is the center is that in our life which we can control and we can have influence over. And that's the smallest. Around that comes that which we can actually influence, but we have no control. No control, but some influence. And then the big red circle is the reality of our lives. That which we cannot control and that which we cannot influence. And I think, you know, it's in the context of getting the moment right. I think we need to be wise to control the controllables and to. And to not fuss over things we. We cannot control. We have no control, no agency over. One of my favorite authors, Buddhist teacher is Tara Brack, and she wrote a book called Radical Acceptance. And the word radical means at the root. You know, when a woman gets a radical mistake. To me, breast cancer, they remove the lymph nodes, the breast. It's radical surgery, but to get hold of the cancer. So radical acceptance is at the. At the root. You, you, you accept the things you can change. It's like the serenity prayer, right? Yes, I think it's. It goes like this. God, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. And that's probably another thing about getting this moment right. What kind of wisdom do you have to know the difference between what you can control? We have agency versus that which you. Absolutely. It's not under your control or your influence and, and let it go and accept it. I want to circle back to Dale Carnegie.

It's a bit of a. I was just thinking that. I was literally thinking that, that it's the, it's the stop worry. It's got to be in the book.

He in the book said there was a A rhyme, it was like by Mother Goose or something. It says if there's an. For every, every ailment under the sun, there is a cure or there is none. If there is one, try to find it. If there is none, never mind it. So a bit of poetry and lightheartedness, but a lot of truth in that, right?

For Indeed, Indeed. Peter, I always, I love our conversations there. They always seem too short to me. This is a good place, I think, for us to, to conclude there is, there will be show notes, of course, and, and to our listeners, you, you, you've learned a lot starting with, with Peter Dr. Niemann's bio and a brand new book sustained a life rewritten after sudden misfortune. But all of your books are magnificent. They're all available on Amazon. I again, we will have more information about those things and links to go and, and purchase through the show notes. I would say if you've got, and this is direct to my audience, to our audience. If you have questions for Dr. Nieman or for myself, please feel free to put questions or comments because the comments are also super valuable to us. Adammarkel.com forward/podcast. You can leave a question or comment there and it as always, this will not be a no AI, no no chat bot to respond. It will be us doing that. If you've got somebody in your life, as I imagine you, you probably do, whether it's a colleague, a friend, a family member that could benefit from listening to some of what was shared today, I think some really important things we were able to, to touch upon, share the episode because it's good for them. Maybe it's good for them. You know, we don't know. We, we can't, we can't control that. Right? That's beyond our control. But we can, we can certainly show effort and, and it helps, it helps us. So I say thank you for doing that because when you share the podcast, when you provide a, you know, a review of some kind, when you rate the podcast on the platform, you're consuming it, it helps the algorithm. I don't understand it that much. I just know that it puts it in front of more people, more people get access. So you're doing us and our community a service and a favor to, to take the time out of your busy day to do those things. So thank you for that. And just lastly, if you're wanting on your own to just check in with yourself, see where your level of resilience is on the mental side, on the physical side, on the, on the emotional side on the spiritual side even, which in our, in our world of resilience research, it's not about spirituality, but it's about alignment. If you're curious about where you are, you can go to rank my resilience dot com. Rank my resilience dot com and in three minutes you can get some insights, scoring for yourself, see how that has changed. If you've taken the assessment in the past, you can check it again and see how you're doing today. It is a snapshot in time. And then, of course, there are free resources that come after that. So, Peter, as always, I just want to say thank you for taking the time to share a piece of yourself with us today. I said to you before we even started the recording, my. My wife, Randy, she adores you. And she. She is. She is the litmus test for me, always about people. I've been both a good judge of character and a bad judge and a poor judge of character in my, in my work in the world. At times, I think the. I. I think the world of you. And, and it is. It's just always confirmed by Randy's view of you. And, and as I said, she. She just adores who you are, how you show up, what you do and how you've moved forward, how you. How you've become better somehow. Some, in some, you know, just ineffable. It defies description how you move forward from, from such a thing as happened in your life and your wife's life. But thank you for sharing your story and for writing for, for all the things you do. You're. You're planting. You're planting trees. You're. You're helping to regenerate this world. That, that is. Is a bit. A bit torn and tattered, probably, as, as. As it always has been. But thank you, Peter.

Thank you, Adam. It's absolute pleasure to spend this time with you. As you say, time flies. And I'll always put a plug in for what you're doing, but it's just saying bean by beam, the bag gets full. And if we can get one more listener to follow you, one more person to get more resilient and one person that helps somebody else to get more resilient in. In a world that is full of uncertainty, man, that's what success looks like, I think. And that. That's what meaning and purpose is all about. So congratulations that you've come this far. How many years has the podcast been on now?

I mean, we're probably into our sixth year. It's. It's been 300 some episodes. I mean it's been a minute, as they say.

I'm looking forward to 60 years, but that's maybe unrealistic. Let's go for 10. I, I'd love to be back on your program when, when you celebrate your 10th year.

You know what? That's a, that's a guarantee. Yeah. I mean, from one streaker to another. I love it, sir. Thank you so much again.

Thanks. Say I do all our friends and to your wife and to your children, tell them lots of good wishes from cold Canada. Warm, warm wishes from cold Canada.

Always the warm hearted Canadians. That is the truth. Okay, folks, so this is a bit of a. P.S. a little postscript to the conversation that Peter and I were having. And just as we are, are close to one another and, and friends and, and colleagues, you know, this came up and we thought, well, let's hit record and just get, get this out there and, and add this to the show as well because it's really important. You know, Peter talked about my wife, Randy. He has married to, to the love of his life for 33 years right now. Is that right, Peter?

33 years of, of a happy marriage. Thank God. Yeah.

And in the midst of a happy marriage, a tragedy occurred four years ago, January 1st. So, you know, you talked about your process, but your wife's process and dealing with this and her way of grieving has been different. And we just thought maybe you'd share a little bit about that as well.

Yeah. I think, Adam, when, when, when you have to bear the unbearable. Of course, because we very unique human beings, each and all have our different values, our different beliefs. And I, I don't want to give advice to anybody. It's not my place. But all I can do is humbly share my own experiences. And what I've experienced is that my, my wife looks at the situation from a spiritual angle a little bit different for me. In fact, Adam, she, she has not read this book. She edited some of my books, but never edited or touched this book. Sustained. And because she's just not ready to do that kind of thing. And so the message I think that I would really like to share is from my heart is that when you're in partnership with somebody, make sure that you don't rush them in their journey, to be resilient in their journey and their quest to stay strong, be with them, walk next to them, don't judge them, don't criticize them, and just allow them to move at a pace that works for them. It's a Bit like marathon running. You know, you, you, you, you know the pace that you can run and should run to get to the finish line. And if you go any faster than that, you're gonna, you're gonna crash and burn. You're gonna hit the wall. And so, you know, it's all about pacing ourselves and being patient with one another. And my definition of resilience is the, the ability to endure consistently with patience. To me, that is resilience more than bouncing back. So thank you for letting me share about my dear wife and my good best friend and, and the fact that, yeah, we, we could still be married even if we, if we handle this misfortune in, in a different manner.

Indeed. Thank you, Peter.

Thank you.

Dr. Peter Niemann is, he's a one of a kind. He really is. He's truly a special person. Can you imagine that person there being your, your child's pediatrician? If you have children, if you have, have children in the future, can you just imagine being so fortunate, so lucky to have a pediatrician like this? He is, he is truly incredible. And his, his amazing wife Corinne is also a doctor, a family doctor. These are really good people. And, and you know what? As, as good as they are, as you heard, they've experienced excruciating tragedy in their lives. So things happen. And sometimes really tragic, horrible things, horrific things can happen to good people. I don't think there's any distinction there about that. Things happen in life and we can't understand it always. In fact, many times we don't understand it. And yet we still have to process it. And we do, but for particular reasons that, that, that transform and, and, and, and allow for those experiences to be, to be of value. As Peter said today, we can either be bitter or we can be better. And he has certainly chosen the path of, of being better as a result of, of a very, very difficult thing. We covered so many things today. We, we talked about the, the concept that I was sharing in a recent solo cast at New Year's about getting the moment right and about how we get this moment right and what that looks like. And he, he provided this wonderful example of, of what that, you know, conceptually can be and by, by analogizing it to how we put a shirt on that has, you know, that has buttons. You know, you typically start with that button at the top or near the top. And, and if you get that one right, if you just get that first button to be aligned, you know, all the buttons below it sort of just fall into place. And, and I Thought that was a great way to describe the concept of getting, of getting this moment right, getting our thoughts right, getting, getting. Getting our breath right, getting our body in that moment, whatever that moment is. To be. To be in the place where, where we are fully present and, and here and now in this. So we talked about Dale Carnegie somehow or another that came up. We talked about so many different books today, and he recommended a book that I'm gonna get, a couple of books that actually, that, that I'm gonna plan on getting, but this one about how to stop worrying. I'm a recovering worryaholic, you know, I don't worry as much as I used to for sure, but yet I still find myself doing that, falling into that old default mode, as many of us do. And, and this is an old Dale Carnegie Book from 1912. So I think it's just for me be cool to, to find a copy. I'm sure there are some copies out there. I haven't looked yet, but I'm gonna look for one very soon. We. We talked about gratitude, of course, and we talked about the importance of December 16th in, in our life, our son's birthday and, and, and Peter's life and how he has now run for 5,132 days consecutively. He is. He has run and has now completed, I think 114 marathons, which is just. I mean, it's totally remarkable. We talked about this, this wonderful concept of, of wishing to only be truly helpful. The kind of mentioned that at the end of our conversation, this idea that comes from A Course in Miracles and, and the idea that, that we can, that we can wish to be truly helpful. That that's one of those things that you can remind ourselves that today I wish. I wish only to be truly helpful. It's just a beautiful statement, but we covered philosophy. We talked about Buddhism, we talked about religion a little bit, but spirituality mostly. We talked about relationships and how that, that, that old statement of, you know, we have relationship for a reason, a season or a lifetime, and what that can mean in, in other contexts. It just, you know, this was a conversation. I think that because we talked about tragedy and resiliency in the face of tragedy, that it is an episode that you, you may want to bookmark and keep handy for future reference. It's an episode that you might want to share with somebody else in your life. Friend, colleague, you know, family member, etc, and as always, we appreciate when you do that too. But, but I so enjoyed this conversation. That's all I, I wanted out of it was to to just be with a this dear person, be present with him, not not keep to any any kind of an agenda, but really just follow the breadcrumbs which I feel like we were led divinely along the path today in this conversation. So hope you enjoyed it, hope you enjoyed the interview and as always, we'd love your feedback. Feel free to provide us with that. And and I wish you just the most beautiful day or evening wherever we're finding you, wherever you are in the world, whatever you're doing at this moment, I'm sending you my love. And thank you so much for being, as always, a supporter of this podcast and a part of our community. And we'll say, I will say ciao for now.

Thanks for listening. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build resilience and become change proof. Remember to leave a review on Apple Podcasts and you may be featured in an upcoming episode. For more resilience tips and strategies, including support for building Change proof teams, visit AdamMarkel.com to get your own free resilience assessment, go to rankmyresilience.com.