How To Optimize Your Work Performance And Mental Health With Dr. Marie-Hélène Pelletier

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markell and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change.

Proof. Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Change Proof podcast. I'm your host, Adam Markell, and I'm already just like giggling to myself because for some reason I'm having trouble in in just like reading the bio for my guest. I have an amazing conversation coming up with Dr. Peltier. I'm going to share a little bit about her. I'm going to read her bio or attempt to read her bio now. She has spearheaded a dialogue on the crucial issues of leadership, resilience and workplace health. Drawing on her extensive background in corporate, insurance, governance and public sectors. She brings national and international perspectives and expertise on mental health and resilience as a key pillar in overall health. She is a bilingual practicing psychologist with over 20 years of experience in clinical psychology and advisory workplace psychology and holds a PhD and an MBA from the University of British Columbia. Okay, I managed to do that. Sit back. You're going to so enjoy this conversation that I'm having today with MH as she is called. So just buckle up, sit back, relax, of course, and enjoy this conversation. Okay. MH I'm so happy you've given me permission to call you M.H. actually, that was your suggestion. So I'm thrilled about, I'm thrilled about that. You have a very impressive cv. Your resume of accomplishments is, it's pretty, it's pretty off the hook. But what I'm going to ask you now is simply what is something that's not included in, in the that sort of laundry list of things that you've accomplished and done which are very impressive that you would love for our audience to know about you. One thing that's not included in your standard bio that you would love for people to know about you right now.

Probably that I, it's probably still, I guess, related but doesn't matter. I enjoy also challenges in the nature. So that's where mountaineering going for a few days, even going for one day, even going for 20 minutes if that's all I got. But and, and discovering unexpected things even in the very short ones. So I guess a bit of a low, a small E explorer mindset.

Yes. So you're have you always been an adventurer? Like, is that just how you were baked when you were a Little, Little kid. And. And like, it's just like the big version of you is just that much more adventurous or. Or is this something new?

I think. Well, but, you know, probably many people will relate to this in some ways, right? As children, that's a bit of what we do in different ways. We explore, learn the world, you know, do different things, that kind of thing. So just like many kids, I liked whatever, climbing trees and doing things like this. But so I guess for me, yes, that that's there. And I still like climbing. I still would love to climb trees, but I just have. Don't have trees right here. That would be the perfect place to climb. But I think it's always been there to answer your question. Yeah. Yeah, always been there. Just happened in different contexts as well.

Yeah. How important is it for you that you are able to retreat into nature or do things that are kind of more adventurous as a part of your resiliency, as a part of how you decompress or reset, recharge, restore. It's a lot of good words that start with R that have to do.

Yes, resilience.

Yeah.

Initially it was just out of enjoying doing it, just for the fun of it, for the sake of it. That's it. And then says if as I learned more about. Well, as I trained in my fields and all that. And I then learned that the research backed. Backed up a number of these good activities kind of thing. And I think now that I'm, you know, a bit further in my career and like most of us, when you are a bit further, there are more demands of different types and that kind of thing. So then. And it connects a bit with the work that I do, the book and all this. But it's true for me as well, personally, that there is this more deliberate choice attention on the daily basis. The amount varies on a daily basis, but the attention is probably there on a daily basis to. Yes, the. How am I recharging? And is this in nature today? Sometimes it's not. It's not always possible for me, but. But the intention. Is there a version of it is there so that I can stay, well, as resilient as possible, but also just enjoying life, really?

Yeah. I mean, I think that's such an important piece when. When I am speaking on that topic, the topic of resiliency audiences or in workshop settings and things like that, people often ask me, so how focused, you know, how much is resilience on your mind on a. On a regular basis? And. And it's an interesting question, actually. And I'M for those that are watching this on YouTube, I'm wearing a resilience shirt today. Those of you that are listening, just imagine I'm wearing. I'm a, you know, tanned, bald, wearing this black T shirt that says Resilience across the chest. And so, yeah, wear that shirt in part because it's, it's a part of the brand, but it's, it's also a reminder to me. I have lots of T shirts with messages on them. We, in our company, we like to think of them as talking teas and they're saying something as a message. So it's a message to the people that read it, of course, but that's a message to me. I mean, I'm literally branding myself with, with that statement, with that word. And I think the intention, as you said, is so. Is vital. And when I'm answering that question, I'll say, well, I am very much intentional about resilience and I am intending to be resilient each and every day because for sure there are. There are things that are testing my, my stamina in so many, mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually speaking, each and every day. So I, I don't. I don't know that I can think of a day in the recent past where resilience wasn't a key ingredient in whether that day was successful, whether I, I felt good when I put my head on the pillow, you know, to go to sleep, or, or, you know, what the quality that day turned out to be. Resilience was a key ingredient. Do you agree with that? Anything, you know, resonate there for you?

Yeah. Yeah. It's. Sometimes I find in. For myself and in, in the work that I do with others as well, that. So it's either there consciously, deliberately on people's mind, and that's the state that many love to be in. There will be days where things to. Things just pile on each other. Meetings that don't. Don't just follow each other meetings, you know, superimpose each other on themselves and you're a triple book or whatever. And so there will be days where that deliberate, grounded approach does not appear very much. But then this. As soon as we can get back to it, or whenever we can get back to it in again, small ways, it keeps it on the radar. And maybe we don't even get to doing anything about it today. But then because it's on the radar, it will be on the radar tomorrow again. And tomorrow may provide an opportunity for more active work in that area. It. It, you know, and on the Better days. Whether it was deliberate or not, it often just was present. It just brought situations that increased our resilience, that allowed us to bring our best, both professionally and personally. So why not harness this, right? Make it more conscious, deliberate, strategic. I would argue so, such that we're realistic about what can be done, even in the busiest schedules, so that we can, we'll bring our best for ourselves and of course, for people around us in our work and personal lives.

Do you find that when, when we are more strategic about our resiliency, more intentional, more conscious, that it becomes our default mode, if you will, when stress happens, when disruption occurs, when change is present?

Yeah. Yeah. Does it become a habit in some ways, right, These, these actions? Sometimes it can. Just like habit formation would happen if you're repeating certain behaviors, that kind of thing. Sometimes it. So it's in part a bit habit, I would say it's also in part having a strategic plan which is a bit more higher level than the specific behaviors or habits, mostly because sometimes that particular action or that particular habit is just not possible right now for whatever reasons. And so if we're only tied to a habit and this particular habit cannot occur right now, even in smaller versions, then you know, we're, we need to think of something and because everything's going fast, we don't. And therefore nothing happens. And if in addition it comes, that habit is part of an overall strategic plan, then we have higher level directions that will inform, oh, what do we do if this circumstance that never thought about, but this circumstance happened? It really does function, Adam, the same way that we would use strategy in, say, a business context. When we are launching a new product or a new service, we don't just say, oh yeah, I will successfully launch by doing this thing. Yeah, we may have some ideas of specific tactics, but usually we will have a higher level plan, a strategy with strategic pillars. And that's how strategy works. It will inform actions we'll choose to take as we move towards that goal. It's the same idea here. And I find that when I explain it this way, it connects with what either work we do or, I mean, the logic of it is, is makes sense to most people.

Yes. Well, you and I are both researchers on this topic, so I'm going to ask you a question. And I, I often will ask audiences, you know, at, at the outset of a talk, I'll say, you know, there's this word, resilience. It gets thrown around a lot. You know, is it, is it just another way of saying suck it up? Today, you know, what does it mean to you? How do you define it? My question for you is, do you have a running definition of what resilience or resiliency is for yourself?

Yes, yes, and you're right, many definitions were the word is used, we all use it in different contexts, just like so many other words, really. Resilience. Interestingly, even if, and I know you, Adam, would know this, but just for our conversation today in the academic literature, there are various definitions. It's not just one clean simple like that of burnout for example, which is crystal clear. Resilience has different versions of it. The one I've worked with and many others have as well, is our ability to go through adversity and come out even stronger. So there is this growth element from it. And keeping in mind that adversity, so often we think of it as an acute event. And yes, it can be that, but it can also be chronic events. And of course, often it's a combination of both.

Yes, I love to say that there's a through line. Everybody defines resilience individually. They define it mostly based on their own personal life and business or professional experience. But the through line that we see is that it is the ability to leverage the power of uncertainty and even adversity as a catalyst for long term growth. Just very much in alignment with what you said. And recently I've been simplifying it, or when I say simplifying it, I even thinking about it in a different form, in more crystalline format of it being sustained persistence plus adaptability. Because so often when you think about what produces resilience organizationally or at an individual level, it is this capacity to forever be moving forward, you utilizing everything for growth purposes. But so if you quit, if you stop, if you give up the resilience, you know, you don't get the benefits from resiliency. And if you're not able to adapt, meaning if you're resistant to change as as many people are, that you fight it, that you see it as, as the enemy or as something that is to be feared even then again you don't gain the full benefits of resiliency. But sustained being able to persist and persevere over long periods of time with this capacity to adapt to the change and the constant change that is really ever present produces great resiliency.

It does.

Well. Yes, please.

Well, I was just going to add an element to this. I agree. Elements of persistence, elements of agility. The one piece I, I would want to make sure we also keep in mind is that it's not persistence at all cost.

Exactly.

That's because sometimes it has been part of how for many people, their resilience has allowed them say, to persist and through an event and meaning persisting in this sense is staying in the situation and solving for it or you know, modifying it or these kinds of things. And sometimes this is how we go through. What is, I think also important is that sometimes the best, the most resilient thing to do is to let it go, to get out, to quit, to leave it, to take a bath. As we say in business, let it go, it all goes away and I move on to something else. And that's important because sometimes as highly capable, resourceful, you know, all these beautiful things that we may be, we get to a point where we believe that if we were to not stay here in this situation, we would be letting go inappropriately. And no, no, no. Sometimes part of the strategies to let go, just like again in business, if you launch something and it's not working, I mean at some point they'll drop the product and that is sometimes the best thing we need to do as individuals as well.

That's true. I, I couldn't agree with you more. And, and I'm going to take not a contrary position to that, but I want to, I want to play the sort of another side of this which is that just having been in business myself for 30 plus years for some extended.

You started when you were 10?

Yeah, yeah, thank you so much. Right. A couple of dozen years as an attorney and then starting businesses, running them and, and still doing that kind of thing. And I, what I found, find and, and, and I will add to this that I've done a lot of business trainings for, you know, large, large audiences of people that were in that entrepreneurial headspace and wanting to start things, etc. It's shocking how often it is that success is, is, is, is something that eludes people because they do stop, quit, run out of gas, let's say. And so while I completely agree that that blind perseverance will never win the day, it's why I got out of the law. I literally woke up every day knowing that what I was doing was actually harmful to my insides. I could call it, you know, it was hurting my soul, but it was also hurting my, my, my, my being, my, my physical being, mental, emotional being. So, and I persisted blindly because I was not the kind of person that quit things easily. And that led me to a very scary place. And I'm very fortunate to be here today knowing that I Was able to pivot away from that, wrote a book called Pivot about that journey. So blind perseverance is not going to win the day. But, but knowing that people often will stop short of the goal. You know, I think there was a book that maybe Napoleon Hill was involved in called Three Feet from Gold. You know, this idea that will stop their pursuit of their, of their goals just three feet from where it might come to fruition. So to me, this idea of sustained what, what enables you to sustain your performance or your persistence, let's say, and then, and then ultimately be adapting along the way is, is a key ingredient in, in resilience today, I think, because grit will not get you there, as you're pointing out. Know blind grit or just, you know, grinding endlessly. What you need to do is, is create the kind of life rituals or habits to your word that enable you to sustain that performance. And that to me is much more about recovery and your rituals or your habits for recovering, recapturing energy than it is about gritting, gritting it out. You know less about endurance, more about how we restore than how we endure. So I think we, we definitely, we are aligned and see eye to eye there. I want to get your thoughts on leadership, resilience and workplace health, because I know that is a specialty of yours. But before we go there, I, I know the book the Resilience Plan is coming out next year and, and in, in talking about what you said, strategic resilience, is that what's part of the, the content of the book is how to actually create a strategic plan for individual and team or even organizational resiliency.

It is bringing elements. So, yes, bringing elements from what we know from the research and practice in psychology, best practices about resilience and bringing structures and ways of thinking from business, specifically strategy, together to, yes, help individuals. It is a bit more focused on us as individuals, this book, to create our own customized strategic resilience plan. It is couched in the overall picture of the workplace where our individual resilience does not operate on its own. It's here and it is within a team. The team is within the organization. The organization is within a country. And so it is very much a system. What I'm saying is, yes, it is a system. And wherever the problems are, the challenges, the needs to change are even if they're completely outside of us here as individuals, we still need in order to manage this situation, potentially influence it or make decisions, we need to optimize our resilience. Now the book does have a chapter on Team resilience as well, because it is part of the system and our individual resilience will influence more than just us, which is beautiful. But this is the. Where this book resides. It's concise as a book. It is designed for the busy professionals and leaders and brings the psychology and the strategy together.

Could you share a little bit of what the research has yielded so far? I'm sure that the book is in having been down that road and process through that process is agonizing. I'm sure God knows how much editing is still going on and there's a million things. Right. It takes a village to create a book, I find. So it's. I'm sure you're. You're in the thick of it. Can you share a little bit about what the research has. Has yielded and, and even what the basis has been sort of, you know, how you conducted the research or. Or who. Or what.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the book is now actually completely finished, done, printed as of now, because it is for February 6th release. And so literally as we.

Oh, I want to applaud then. I want to congratulate you on that. Yay. You're out the other side.

I know. That's what I've been saying to a number of people I've been speaking to. It's been more work and more fun than I thought, but more work, even though I knew it would be work. Yeah, well, it, the, the research for the book comes from both psychology and business. And that's why I've had. I've done a number of things like we do focus groups and advanced readers and this kind of thing. And even the endorsers are coming from both sides. So I've got people who are coming from both psychology and business, people from the academic settings and industry. I've got people who are different countries around the world. And so it's just needed a lot of perspectives to inform. Ultimately something that's fairly straightforward and helps people change. It is something I've been using in my work for a while and, and then I was thinking, okay, wait a sec. Well, not just me, individuals I've worked with and audiences would sometimes comment on. Okay, I wish I had this so long ago, way before now, that would have, some of them said, saved me from my burnout or would have been so helpful or all these kinds of things. Which then of course led to me, as it often does for authors to think, okay, wait a second, if, if I'm able to capture this in a book, then it can hopefully get in even More people's hands and heads and save them time and, and pain.

Yes. So can you, can you give us a couple of nuggets from the book? You know, are there, are there certain people who are more resilient? Certain people or geographies in the world where business people are or in, you know, individually are more resilient, etc. Etc. And, and really is there, is there sort of a little, a little bit of a, of a, you know, recipe. I know it's called a plan, so I don't want to give everything away, but I want to, I want people to want to go out and get this. Maybe you could tease us with a little bit of that.

Well, the, you know it, the book's written. I wrote the book for professionals and leaders who are accomplishing so much on a daily basis and at some point just get. They need an edge, they need something and they've been assuming that they are just resilient, don't need to do anything about it. They can just wing it when they need it, you know it's going to be there, blah blah, blah, only to realize it's not. And everyone knows the kinds of things we should do to increase that resilience. Yeah, if we exercised more, if we ate better and there number of recommendations that are all research based, beautiful. And what most people struggle with is incorporating anything about these things into their lives. And that's where my point is. Let's create and a customized strategic resilience plan for you in this moment. So it's not even your plan forever. It's your plan for right now in this context which may need to evolve in four months from now, but once you've done it, it's very simple. Then that's what, that's what changes. So what I do in the book, it is a very practical book. It is more focused on figuring out what you need to do next than bringing statistics about or these pieces of research. And all this, it's all research based but that conversation in the book is to take you where you are and help you move to point B, having your plan. And I've extracted the types of exercises and, and actions that again they're fairly straightforward but have helped others similar to the, the audience I wrote it for move things forward, create that plan, implement it and leave with okay, this did not take an immense amount of time. I now have lots of clarity. I know exactly what to do and I can start now. So it's beautiful elements to your questions, exercises like making sure you collect in writing Your values so that you start from there. We're not starting from everything the research is saying. We start from you. Because if we're going to get customized, a way to link it to each of us individually in this moment, that's going to be a central part. Doesn't take time. I guide people in how to do it, but that's one part of it. Then we want to have really good visibility, honest visibility. Don't move too quickly from this. It's very important about our current sources of supply and demand. And usually when I ask people, okay, what kinds of demands are you facing? They give me their top three things they're facing at work, which is great. Then I say, okay, give me the top three in your personal life. And then I say, okay, add as many as you want on both lists. And that's where usually by the time we get there, that's when they start seeing the size, the amount, the weight of all these demands. Because often extremely high performing, capable, fabulous people tend to be a bit more on the optimistic side, almost to the point of minimizing the demands they're facing. Oh, that. That's not going to be too long. It's not even on the list, whatever, and how many times. But you've seen it. I've seen it, Adam, where, you know, you think this next thing that someone asked you to do will take you half an hour, four hours later. We're, you know, it's not done. And so that sort of optimism is very positive. But sometimes it's paired with a degree of minimizing that actually is not. And that's in part with. That's in one of the main traps that keeps us from being able to implement anything else. The realities were more jammed than we acknowledged for ourselves. That's one of the exercises. There are others to also gain even more clarity on your overall context. Again, in a very realistic way. That's in part what I do in the book, like making sure you catch yourself and not just skim over this, minimizing a number of parts of this picture, because then you'll stay stuck. But once you've got really good clarity, you can do a plan.

Indeed. I wanted to ask you about burn. You mentioned burnout earlier, and.

Let'S talk.

About burnout at the moment. People are certainly aware that there's plenty of burnout, or they've been told there's lots of burnout. What's your take on the state of burnout in the world? Basically not. You could be in any region, if you like. But what is the state of burnout post pandemic in your worldview?

So we do know from research that the rates have increased, and certainly they have in North America and in the number of other countries as well. It's not absolutely every country, of course, but overall they have increased and they have increased across various industries, various roles. And so, and just so we're all on the same page, burnout is not the diagnosis, like depression, for example, or anxiety. Burnout is as defined by the World Health Organization. So it is one where we have one definition and it is clear and we're using it. So that's simple in some ways, but so it's an occupational phenomenon with three main characteristics. So we're exhausted, which is often how we use burnout. But that's not the only thing. So exhausted. We're also cynical. So we've given hope that anything's going to change and it's impacting our performance. That's where burnout is at in terms of definition. Rates are increasing and it is interesting that in some ways we've probably heard more about it in the past few years than ever, in part due to the pandemic. But it's not. That's the thing. It's not because we have information that it leads to changes in actions. It's better to have information than not having information. But we have a lot of work to do and so that's where it's at. The other piece that's useful with burnout is that it's not something that appears suddenly. It builds over time and it's going to connect with the benefits of being proactive in trying to mitigate our risk. But we don't get exhausted, cynical and impact on our performance. Just like this one day. You may notice it just like this one day, because you didn't look at the signs before, but it did not just happen there. Before being exhausted, you were overextended. Before being cynical, you were disengaged. And before your performance was significantly impacted, more things started falling through the cracks. And so back to our. The earlier part of our conversation. If we are paying attention in this case, say, to our resilience on a more daily basis almost, then we will see, we will identify these signs and hopefully be able to take action sooner, not leading to a more severe form of experiencing all these signs, like full burnout, which does lead for some to depression, anxiety and other health challenges, whether they're on the mental health side or the physical health side.

Yes, I think it's really important. The Idea that people are tracking or creating some personal awareness of these things each day because you said they don't, they don't manifest overnight and, and, but we can often feel them sort of in one, you know, one shot and that's itself quite overwhelming and can lead to that sense that, you know, how did I get here, this is hopeless, et cetera. I, for me that, that one shot or that moment of awareness happened in the hospital. Lying in bed, lying on a gurney, sorry, thinking, thinking I'm never going to see my kids again. You know, not going to leave, never, never leave the hospital because I'm about to, I'm about to die. And that fear that, that feeling was so, was so real, was so visceral. I just can't, in my mind, even though it's a long, it's a while ago now, more than 12 years ago, I, I mean I can still feel some of the sensations, bodies, bodily sensations when I talk about it.

Yeah.

But I, I can't take myself mentally back to that moment because it was surreal, you know, in that, in that moment I literally experienced what was sort of like a, and you know, approaching death kind of awareness. And that didn't happen overnight. It happened as a result of ignoring lots of signs along the way, as you said. So I think it's really important that people are, are tracking and taking, taking some, some stock in, in how they are actually feeling. And I think your book is going to, I believe would do a great deal of good in that area alone just for that sense of awareness. I wrote a book about resiliency that came out right in the middle of the pandemic, was called Change Proof that'll leverage the power of uncertainty is as a catalyst to create long term resilience. And resiliency in my view, same as yours, is something that you can build, you can develop, you can learn, you can train at any age. That's why it's a magnificent tool for us in our, in our own personal lives, but also as a way to impact the people around us, whether it's our family or it's the people we lead, the teams, the folks that we're associated with and we can really be a positive influence in that, in that area. But often the leader that is ignoring their own well being because they're, you know, they're really a team player. Which means, you know, they, they, they'll miss, they'll miss events in their, you know, important events in their family recitals and other things because taking is taking precedence. They'll ignore their body, they'll ignore rest that they need and, and other things, etc. Because they are, they are trying to, to be that good team player or they're just built to, to somehow, you know, grit things out. But they have this, this impact on everybody around them as well, you know, especially if they're senior level leaders or even managers frankly. Because, you know, when, when your habits are that way, it's, it's hard enough for you, of course that you're going to go through, you know, some inevitable depletion and, and, and ultimately move, move in that direction of burnout. Whether you, you get there or you don't, you are by what you do and don't do. Giving permission or denying permission to the people that are around you because they take their, they take their cues from a leader. So if that leader is eating at their desk, makes no time for themselves, really is in first and out last, that's the signal of success in that environment. And other people maybe don't make the time, take the time for their therapy sessions or to seek out therapy. They may take the time to sit and actually, you know, find time for rest during the day. I mean, we're not, I'm not talking about nap pods by the way, or things like, and it's fine if you, you know, there's nap pods and people need a nap or whatever. But you and I, I think have done similar research to find that resilience developing resilience is, is a micro activity. Yeah. Take your pto. Makes sense. Take time off vacations and all that thing. But really you build resilience moment by moment. And when you schedule those moments throughout the day, you, you are constantly sort of refilling your tank so that you don't end up in that place where you're, you're already on that, on that path to burnout because you're exhausted, cynical, and your performance is showing signs of it. So it's really vital that not only we do it for ourselves, but we're actually modeling it for other people. And, and that's kind of like where I use it as a hook with folks because we're taught that somewhere along the line that being self, taking care of yourself is selfish. And that means it's, it's actually not cycle. From a psychological standpoint, you could say more about this, but people will deny themselves because they think it's being selfish. And women, you know, in particular, I think are more even susceptible to that because they're, they're caregivers to everybody around Them first. Is that what I'm saying sound on point or am I way off base?

No. There are different ways in which we will trap ourselves. In not paying attention or in not taking action. And you've named a number of them. One of the angles sometimes that I, I discussed that sometimes helps some people shift their perspective is that it's as if along the lines with some of the perspectives and beliefs you've talked about, it gets to a point where people assume that this is an, a bit of an all or nothing type of situation, a dichotomy. So either you're this high performing, constantly working person here or you are this constantly taking care of yourself, thinking about nothing else than meditation and your next run on your or your salad over here. And I'm exaggerating them a little.

I love that. That's such a great way to tee that up.

Right? And no, no, no people in category one here. This is not obviously not how it works sometimes. One of the ways to think about it is to think of your best work challenges. If you're a leader, you've solved complex situations. If you're a professional or whatever the work you do is, there are situations where something happens and you have to solve for it. And sometimes we find brilliant solutions to things like this. And so my invitation would be to do the same thing here. So you're this assuming, say hard working, high performing person who has way too many demands, not enough time to create some kind of source of supply for yourself here. Don't just give up thinking this is an all or nothing. And obviously you're not going to become this person who does not work and only eat salad over here. So, so therefore you let it go. No, no. See this as a fabulous puzzle for you to solve. You've got this. You've solved complex things before, brilliantly do the same thing here. And if you're a bit stuck, as I'm saying this, well, as Adam was saying, maybe it's time to connect with someone else who will help you figure it out. Whether it's a therapist, whether it's talking to your coach or maybe your coach will refer you to a therapist. If you're not sure, you talk to different people. Read books, Adam's book, my book, just something. Don't stay there stuck. Keep searching for the book or the person that will help you shift your thinking. Just like you did when you found brilliant solutions before to find your brilliant solution here.

Exactly. I know we're going to wrap things up here in just a second. I'll I'll say it's, it's really important as well that you have, that we have advocates. So part of when we do work, our company is called workwell and when we do more consulting work with organizations, we often will say what you just said, which is that people left to their own devices, we know where, where good intentions lead sometimes, where resolutions lead. How about that? Simple. We all get it. People create a resolution at the end of the year and by, you know, middle of January they're already breaking that, whatever that resolution might have been. So to have advocates, people that will hold space, I don't love the word accountability in that context actually, but, but people that are there for them to have their back and have each other's backs, I think is really important. So often we'll, we'll partner people up and they're each going to try to create or work on these, these new, as you say, the more a nuanced approach to their recovery during the day. So it is not this all or nothing situation, but rather it's much more nuanced than that. And, and, and since it is a new thing they're creating, it's a new muscle, it's a new habit, then support is really, is really key. The last question I have for you is when it comes to your own, just your own personal recovery and what you do to be resilient. So it's sort of a question, a work well question we like to ask is what, what is your favorite personal resource for your resilience, your how you recharge and reset and restore yourself?

Well, it's interesting because there's more than one and we know from research that the more you combine them, you get more than the addition of the various forms, it multiplies. And so there is more than one. But you're asking for one. I'll go for the one. I will tell you is meditation now, not. I am not meditating all the time, all day long durations. No, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not. Sometimes I'll be sitting in an airplane about to take off and there will be a two minute there. Sometimes there will be a two minute standing outside of the airplane in the lineup before we board. So it's, you know, there is nothing magical or huge about it for me to your point, it's part of where it happens every day. And, but the combination of these very small ones and the ones I love the most are when I can get to say 15 minutes, I've built towards this. Seriously, I, it has it probably took me like a few years, Adam, to like seriously, for the longest time I was more like a two minute type of person. Right. And built and so yeah, that would be the one.

Yeah. So I so identify with what you just said. Like I was on a TED stage and I declared to the world apparently that I'm a crappy meditator. So I have, I've never been able to do it for long periods of time. It's kind of like, you know, I'm standing in line and my flight just got canceled and I'm now in a line at customer service and I've got to get somewhere. You know, I travel a lot and. Right. So it's like can I meditate in this line as opposed to getting ready to like bark. Getting ready to inhabit my old New York personality. When I approach this customer service person with, you know, in this situation, I think that's to have a go to is really important. But I agree it my day and, and what we advocate really is that, that our day is filled with these little micro resets that, that you, you intend ahead of time because they don't really happen easily, as easily if you don't think about them ahead of time. So I actually schedule them. I tell people, you know, it's, if you come and look at my Google calendar you're going to see that there are walking, there are breaks for walks, there are breaks to use my stand up desk, I'm sitting at the moment but you know, hit the button, make it go up stand up things that, that will just create those, those resets. And if you don't, if you don't think about them ahead of time, plan for them to your point in a resilience plan, my guess is they just, even with all good intentions, they just don't happen. So I have so enjoyed this conversation. Mh. And I can't wait to get your book myself. So it's out in just a couple of months. We will certainly advocate for, for that with our community that people get out and, and really sink their teeth into it. Especially as you said, it's practical, it's tangible, it's short. So the busy, the busy on the move person is going to be able to, to digest it and utilize it quickly. But I for now just want to say thank you so much for your insights and for your time today.

Thank you Adam. It was a pleasure.

Well, as promised, I, I hope you would say that was, that was a really impactful conversation. Really insightful. Meaning things that we discussed are things that that will, will have an impact. I believe that people listening that hopefully you and the people that you might share this podcast with would actually take action on some of the recommendations that were shared today. MH as she is called, Dr. Peltier has a wealth of experience. I, I know I found myself leaning in really hard to listen to some of the things that she was sharing, the nuances from her research and her new book that's coming out called the Resilience Plan, which I highly recommend that you pick up for yourself, for teammates, etc. We talked about a number of things that were really important today. We both defined resilience, both based on our, our own experience as researchers, as, as people that teach in the space. And we also had some room there for, I think healthy, healthy disagreement talking about those nuances, the, the differences between how we, how we apply resiliency in our everyday lives, both personally and, and professionally. I just so enjoyed talking about how we, we can avoid certain things like the all or nothing trap. I've given it that name. But she was talking about how often the psychology around resilience is that people see it as something that, that you either have to be sort of all in and, and basically, you know, you're meditating and, and you're taking long walks and you're hardly ever working and you know, you're, you're preparing your salads and your greens. All the, you know, like there's that side of the pendulum and then there's a side that says hey, listen, I just gotta, I just gotta get in, get my stuff done and get out. And, and the, the more I can just sort of be able to grind effectively. You know, do, do my grind. Be gritty, you know, persevere, persist at all costs. You know, the better the, the faster I'm, I'm. I'm onto my, my personal life. And that sort of all or nothing mentality that, that all or nothing dichotomy is a trap because act in actuality, resilience is created in, in a nuanced approach or in a micro step approach that does not involve it being one way or the other exclusively, but rather it's a blend. It's a combination, I would say. And this didn't come up in our conversation, but it's sort of like the D between work life and, and balance. And I'm often calling BS on that concept because there is no work life balance. What we can hope for at best, or I shouldn't say at best, I think it really is possible this Is this is what we can aspire to have is work life harmony. We'll never, never have work life balance. At least not anything that we could say is a sustainable state of balance. Because it's the nature of balance that, that it is, it is temporal, it is temporary. And so something that's more ephemeral, more lasting, more sustainable is what we're after. And that is to create harmony between those things. A blending in other words. And it's the same thing with our resilience rituals, the habits that we, that we undertake to, to create more moments, to reset, to recharge, to replenish ourselves. Those are things that we do in, in a, in a, in a moment to moment setting. These are things that we have to consciously and intentionally design. They are something that we can plan for. They're things that we can think of almost in terms of there being a strategy that enables us to continue to sustain our energy. And things that deplete our energy will ultimately deplete our, our performance. Obviously, according to World Health Organization, you know, ultimate depletion results in burnout when we are exhausted, when we are cynical and when we are, when our performance is, is impacted by how, how, by what we're experiencing. But what we understand is that burnout doesn't happen overnight. We don't discover it overnight. It happens incrementally over time. And mostly it's the kind of thing that we're ignoring until, until it, it's right there in our face and we can't, we can't not face it because we are feeling that, that way. And we know that there's a lot of people who are feeling exhausted, are feeling distant, are feeling distanced and disengaged and are, are feeling, you know, that their, that their work might even be suffering, but, but certainly how they, their, their level of happiness, their mental health, that those things are the other things that are suffering and that are caus pain. These things are avoidable both from a standpoint of understanding that they don't happen overnight, that they happen incrementally and by focusing strategically speaking on developing greater resiliency mentally, emotionally, physically and even spiritually in, in what you do incrementally, moment to moment throughout the day. And so my, my suggestion in our conversation was that you schedule these things. We like to refer to that scheduling as a reset map. And when we work with individuals, when we work with organizations, we help people to create their own personal reset maps and then of course create buddy systems so that we're not in it alone. That, that there are those around us that, that have a stake in our success. They are our advocates, they are truly our buddy system so that we can be successful as opposed to when we create resolutions at the end of the year and typically are not successful in those endeavors. ENDE but, but I thought, you know, us, our conversation today, talking about that, that trap, the optimism trap, often people that are, are, you know, very high achievers often think, well, well, you know, what I'm doing is not going to, you know, I can do more than, than I, than, than, than I think I can, you know, that I don't think things will take a long time, that I'm always optimistic about the ability to take on more. And ultimately that becomes a trap in and of itself because in the end there is, there is no getting around the fact that we must have time to recover. We need, we need to have, we need to be able to recharge and, and restore our energy, to replenish our energy. And that's how we can sustain our performance, be adaptable and ultimately succeed. And that's the recipe for success in any endeavor, is that we persist long enough and adapt effectively enough to be able to succeed, succeed in the end. But if you fall out at any point, if you become depleted, if you quit, if your performance falls off because of that depletion or that exhaustion or that burnout, even, you know, then you cannot succeed in the end. So we have to set ourselves up, in other words, for success in these areas. And, and I think, again, these are things that we can plan for, these are things that we can train, these are things that we can learn and model for others in any situ, in, at any age and in any organizational setting. And that's the beauty of it. So again, hopefully you've really enjoyed what you heard today, what you've learned from MH and from her research and in our discussion, of course. And if there were valuable nuggets, things in that conversation that you would believe would help other people. Please share this episode with those. I ask you that in part because I know that the ripple effect is why I do this and why our team is committed to doing it. But it also helps in terms of the algorithms and everything else that this podcast makes its way out into the world and more people find it when, when you do two things, when you share it with other people, of course, and when you provide a rating. So in whatever platform, on what platform you're consuming this, if you could provide a five star rating or whatever rating makes sense, then that is super helpful in terms of just how the algorithm will will introduce this content to other people. So thank you for doing that. If you've got questions for myself or Dr. Peltier, please just feel free to go to AdamMarkel.com forward/podcast. Leave your comment or question there and we will be the one to respond. And if you'd like to just get a snapshot in time and she and I really agreed that resilience is thing that is moment to moment. And if you'd like to find out in this moment how resilient you are or how resilient other members of your team might be, you can Simply go to rankmyresilience.com rankmyresilience.com and three minutes you will. You will get that answer mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually. You'll get a snapshot in time of just how resilient you are. What's your capacity level at this moment? You know, is your tank, your container half full, three quarters full? Is it 100% full? You know, where, where are you in this moment? Three minutes is all it takes. It's entirely free. And the resources that you'll get as well are our gift to you. So thank you so much as always for being a part of our our community, for following, for listening, for sharing and for being a support to us. Thank you so much and have a beautiful, beautiful day.

Thanks for listening everyone. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build resilience and become change proof. Help us inspire others by sharing this episode and leaving your comments over@adammarkel.com podcast for more resilience tips and strategies, including support for building change proof teams, visit AdamMarkel.com BecomeChangeproof.