How To Provide Value Feedback From A Place Of Care With Sarah Conger

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Barkel and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change. Proof.

Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Change Proof podcast. I have a great guest today on the show. She started as a VGM Group events planner, a role that was focused on creating memorable customer events. She was responsible for the annual Heartland conference for many years where they were challenged to make the conference bigger and better, focusing on industry trends, community building and even homemade cookies. She moved from that into a role managing corporate projects. VGM Group was experiencing rapid growth, so the projects addressed the needs of a changing company such as integrating a new customer relationship management tool and organizing a company wide leadership conference. Today she is the VP of Customer Experience for VGM Fulfillment, a fulfillment and logistics partner for CPAP providers. They're focused on quality, speed, accuracy and all the things that keep CPAP providers up at night. In her free time, she is busy wrangling two little ones at home with another on the way. I know you're going to love this conversation, so sit back and enjoy my discussion with Sarah Conger. Okay Sarah, so I don't know how it feels to you to just have somebody rattle off, prattle off all of your accolades and, and your CV and all that good stuff. I, I kind of like it myself. It's, it's a bit surreal too to just from a standpoint of the, the time space thing, you know, like how much, how is, how, how did that happen? So like that seems like a million years ago, but it was only, you know, and I think the pandemic has done that for a lot of people too, that we kind of lost a bit of that time times time orientation if you will. But you've had an extensive career. I'm not going to say how many years. If you want to, you can, but you've had a really extensive career with, with, with a particular company that I know we'll, we'll talk about a little bit today, but we'll I think speak more in, in terms as to, as to organizations in general. But you can, you can of course bring VGM into the, into the mix because they're, they, they I think are a great representative of what a lot of these principles of resiliency are. I had the great pleasure of keynoting a conference recently for VGM which was a blast. So my first question to you is, outside of everything that you just heard me say about you, what is one thing that is not in that bio that you would love for people to know about you at the outset?

I love problems. That is probably one thing that's not part of my bio that you don't hear often. Right. People, Nobody likes problems. Keep them away. Not me. I love a challenge of a problem. I'm always looking for a stretch assignment, something that can challenge me. I, I've been, I've been called a fixer before, which sometimes is good and sometimes is bad. I've learned that, you know, that also makes it hard for me to say no often. But as I've gone through my career and had some various opportunities that you just spoke about, you really do learn about what you should and shouldn't fix. And especially when you're leading a team and leading people, it's so important to not just take on their problems, but to also help them, help your team grow in those instances where they can fix the problem. How would you approach it? And just maybe asking the right questions to get them to ideate about what those potential solutions could be. But I definitely love to take on any kind of big problem that my team, you know, needs some help with or the organization. That's definitely something I really enjoy.

I was just thinking when, when you said fixer, I had like an image in my head of Harvey Keitel in Pulp Fiction. For those, for those folks that have seen the movie, you know, then they know what I'm talking about here. And if not, then there's something funny for you guys to, to go ahead.

And do a little research.

Somebody said, shared this question with me years ago, and, and it really sparked a lot of, a lot of introspection for me. And then in my leadership roles, I've, I've used it as well, which is the question, what's mine to do? And the converse of that being true too, or being, being another question to consider, which is what's not mine to do? And I think as a leader, whether, whether we're talking about in a organizational setting or even, you know, in other areas of your life, like as a, as a part of society, as a person, in a family, maybe as a person that even has kids, and I know you have two little ones, it's like being a fixer and, and having to net sort of modulate or, or discern, let's say, what is mine, what is mine to do here and what is not mine to do. So I want to get into the nuance of that. So I wrote down what not to fix based on what you just said. So have you learned that there are some things that you shouldn't fix, and if so, what?

Absolutely. Especially when you talk about that, you know, kind of at work mode, really being able to say, okay, I have to step away from this. This is not for me. That is so hard because I am so passionate about vgm in the work that I get to do, it's real. And. And I get fomo. I like to be involved. And so when I. And so anytime something comes my way, it is so hard to say no, because that little person inside is like, but you're gonna miss out on something. It's like, oh, no, no, this will be okay. Somebody else can handle this. And it's going to be a great opportunity for them to learn and grow and develop. And I was so fortunate to have that in my career. When I was starting out here at vgm was that trust in leaders that you can figure this out. And I had a leader tell me, once, you know, first starting out, it's hard. You don't have a ton of confidence right away, especially in a new role, and you don't know where your boundaries are. And so I had this leader tell me, no matter what happens, I will support you, and if it goes wrong, we will figure it out together. And that did a ton for me and my confidence and being. Being able to make those tough decisions and solve those problems. And I learned so much more that way than being told, here's the prescribed way to solve this problem. So I really do try to take that to heart, especially when I have young, you know, folks reporting to me or working with me that I'm mentoring and let them know, like, it's okay to make mistakes. That's one thing that. That VGM prides itself on, is it's okay to make mistakes here and we'll figure it out together. And that really resonated with me. And I want to make sure that I give those opportunities to my team and those that I'm around and influence, because I know how important that was in my growth. Other problems that I know that I should not fix, definitely. It's hard to turn off when I go home and when the hubby is, you know, ranting about his own work. Problems, problems, that's just what he needs and what he wants to do. And sometimes that's my employees, too. So it's hard when those worlds kind of intermingle. Like that it's, I'm at work and I'm problem solving and I'm going to fix this. Then I go home and okay, wait, I'm not fixing this. He just wants to vent and vent to somebody, you know, that he can trust. But it also works in vice versa. So making sure that I'm conscious of how I'm reacting to both my spouse when he's like, hey, I just need to vent. Okay, turn off problem solver mode, just listen and be empathetic versus okay, do you want me to help you solve this problem or are you just here to vent? That's also become a question that I ask of, you know, my friends, my family, my spouse, as well as my teammates and peers. How do you want me to help you today? You vent or you need me to help you solve the problem?

I think that's a, that is a profound place to begin any conversation from. I just, I'm, I'm sitting with this for a second because as a, as a parent, as a husband of, you know, a lot, a lot of, a lot of, a lot of years in a very, in a very healthy relationship with what's. Which I just think in terms of where I've messed up in, in my, in my role or in those, in that relationship or as a parent, even with my kids. And, and I would say more often than not, where I have messed up is in overreaching on what it is that they actually want from me. And in part because I made an assumption at the start that what they wanted from me was to make their problem go away. And, and, and that may be a projection for sure as well, because I get something out of that. Being the problem solver, being the person who can, you know, come in and be the white knight or the savior or whatever, and the ego that's involved now, I'm just sitting with that at the moment because I can feel that there's, there's a, there's a payoff to being that person, that maybe that other, the person on the other side of that conversation wasn't. They weren't craving that. They didn't need that. But what they did want was simply to be able to, as you say, just get something off their chest, express something. So I think at, at the, you know, this is a good moment for people to take, to take a breath maybe right there on both their, their relation, where this intersects with their own relationships personally as well as professionally. Because what would be the case if I just, you know, in any one of those scenarios, That I, you know, that I was referring to a moment ago, you know what if I had said to my 14 year old daughter or to my wife or who, whomever it might have been in the moment, just tell me at the outset how I, how I'm able to, to hold space or be here for you. Right. Does that mean you want me to just listen and you can vent and get stuff out? Or are you, are you actively looking for or wanting me to actively participate in solving or helping you solve the problem? And if, if the context had been created at the outset for that, with that question you just gave us, I, Gosh, Sarah, I think I would have done better and in certain areas. So I want to thank you for that.

Yeah, absolutely. I find that it works in reverse too. If somebody has come to you, you know, and they're, they're pouring it all out, you know, at the end. Okay, you know, I'm, thanks for sharing. That is, do you want me to help you with that or are you, you just wanted to let it off your chest? Like either is fine and I'm, I'm happy to help any way that I can. And it's. Sometimes people just need to vent and, and they want to be the problem solver. They want to be that white knight. Right. For their, their problem, their customer, their team, their family. So I never want to, because I love how that feeling is Right. So I never want to take that from somebody else either.

Yes. So are there. That's, that's a really interesting thing. So what, what would you say without getting maybe into details, I mean, get into any detail you want, frankly, but has there been a problem that you faced in the roles of leadership that you've had? And I want to, I definitely want to talk about the current role, of course, but, but it's interesting. Started out in the event planning space for vgm, you were putting on the Heartland Conference each year and probably a lot of other training and development kind of things. So maybe give us a scenario where you faced an intractable problem that, that either your, a mentor of yours helped you to just cut your teeth to solve, or where you've witnessed somebody else in that same scenario where it was tough to watch them struggle for a while. You know, it's, you know, my days as a lifeguard, it's like watching somebody in the water and you go, okay, so are they drowning or are they just, you know, like fighting it a little bit? You know, they might have squalled a little water and they're a little scared. But are they gonna. Are they gonna be able to pull through, or do I need to put my. Put my buoy on and jump in the water in front of everybody and save their ass? Right. Like, which is it?

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I. I have an example of where that actually happened to me, where I didn't want to be saved. I swallowed a little water, and I was gonna be fine. But, you know, my leader jumped in and pulled the trigger too quickly, I will say.

So.

It was a Heartland Conference issue. We were planning the. We were. Everybody was there. We were executing the event, and we had some weather issues. And as you know, getting to Waterloo, Iowa, is not real easy all the time.

Not the easiest thing.

No, it's certainly a challenge. And our keynote, the flight kept getting delayed and changed and eventually canceled, so they weren't going to show up on time. And like, those burning fires, those are the problems that really get me going. I love that stuff.

You love that stuff.

So I'm just thinking, yes, this is gonna be great. I'm gonna.

Did you just grab the mic? Did you just literally get up there and do the. Do it? Is that what. I just want to know. I say this only because if you guys are. If you check this out on. On YouTube, you'll see Sarah just has this incredible energy. And when I first met you was during mic check when I was there for the conference, and. And I saw you get up and do your. You know, there was something you were doing, and I thought, oh, my God, this is Dynamo. This is. We put the mic on her and I'll sit in the seat and watch.

Well, thank you. You are certainly too kind. But those are the kinds of problems that I. That I thrive on. Right. So, you know, I'm. I'm thinking about, okay, here, we could do this and we could do that. And I'm trying to. To decide how best to solve that. Like, this is a big problem. We have all these people that are showing up the next morning at 8am and they're expecting this, and it is 5pm so I have a short window to communicate to everybody and figure out the plan B and work that all out. So I'm working through this problem, and, you know, it's a very visible problem. Right. So a lot of problems with event planning are behind the scenes. Nobody really notices this one. People are gonna. They're gonna notice if, you know, nobody takes the stage.

So it's a visible problem.

Right. So I'm. I'm thinking through that, and before I even had an opportunity to Say, hey, here's what I really think we should do, and this is how I think we should tackle it. You know, my leader jumped in and was like, okay, let's assemble the, like, you know, she went into problem solving mode and because she knew, like, this is a big deal. And I was really disappointed. It really hurt. I was like, you know what? I, I could have done that. I had a lot of those same ideas and plans and why wasn't I given the opportunity to do this? I, I felt like I had, you know, proven myself as a good leader. It wasn't the first year that I was running the conference, so, you know, how was there a missing trust?

Yeah.

Happened. Right, right. We got through it. Everything was fine. The keynote eventually showed up and gave the presentation and everything went on and it was all worked out well. Um, and after the fact, I, it took a, it took a while. I was really nervous to have the conversation, but I really wanted to know. It's. It's hard to ask for that kind of feedback sometimes.

Yeah.

About yourself. So I went to that leader and I said, hey, what could I have done differently to be the leader in that situation? Is there something that I need to do from a professional development standpoint to grow myself so that I have those opportunities in the future? Like, I really felt like I could have taken on this problem and solved it. You know, what, what feedback can you give me so that I can improve and get better so I can be trusted later? And at the end of the conversation, it was really wonderful. I got some feedback about what I can do and what I could have done at that time in my career to grow as well as, you know, an apology from my leader, like, hey, you know what? I'm sorry. We could have done this together. You're absolutely right. And it could have been more of a coaching tag along moment versus oh, I'm going to take your problem and fix it moment.

Right. Wow, you did. That's the second time you did it. That's great, Sarah. I hope people like literally are taking note of this because this is, this is really seasoned advice in terms of, and I'm sure there are both in our audience. There are for sure people that are leading folks and probably, maybe, maybe lead in that way, you know, with good intentions, of course, putting the company first, you know, all that stuff. You know, hey, I've got the experience and you know, I'll, I'll, I'll show this person through, through my, my own efforts how to do something and then they'll learn from that experience. And, but, but it's, it's. This is, this is, I think a lot of what we see in the workplace today that people, especially in Millennial and Gen Z in that demographic, which is, I think by 2030 will, will constitute the majority of the workforce. And it's somewhere between 2025 and 2030. So it's, it's coming soon. That money, Money, while important, is, it's an important perk, it's important reason to work. But there's more to it than that. And, and the, the feeling that you're, that you are growing, the, the get to understand that you're actually growing through the experience and that there's trust because when you don't feel as though your manager or your, your, you know, your leader trusts you, it's, it, it creates that conflict. So what was amazing is that you didn't just, you didn't just chew on it or stow it or go in and, you know, vent about it, but rather you went to your supervisor and said, hey, you know, what could I have done differently? What was, where was my growth edge or opportunities? You said to learn some things that would enable me to be trusted in that, in that moment later, I imagine that that. Did that catch the leader a little, little by surprise.

It did, definitely.

Yeah. That's my point. This is, this is not a, you know, you don't get a lot of people, I think, going to ask the question, framing the inquiry in, in just that way. And I think what that did for your leader was created a growth moment for her, frankly, because she could see clearly that she, without maybe thinking or, or intending it to be. So she deprived you of, of something that, you know, that was there. Not, not necessarily like a, like I earned it kind of thing, but.

Right.

But rather it was just a missed, it was kind of a missed opportunity.

Yep.

Yeah. So did, did that improve or change your relationship and you know, from that point?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, we've always had a great relationship, which is something that I really love and strive for, but it just made us closer, more open all the time. There was so much regular feedback and just brutal honesty sometimes, which that's how you get the good stuff. Right. You gotta just be honest with people. That's how they're going to get better. And I think when you come at it with positive intent, like I am telling you this not to hurt you or to break you down, but because I want you to learn and grow, that's when you can have that kind of relationship where you know, you're going to get the good and the bad and it's all coming because they want you to succeed. That's when you've got a great relationship.

Yeah. Feed feedback. I want to, I want to lean into that a little bit here because it's so, it's so important and I think Marshall Goldsmith likes to refer to it as feed forward. You know, is this concept of, of we're moving forward, which we, we dig because in our work with resiliency training, we're always talking about how it is that we, that we don't bounce back, but we bounce forward. So it's, it, it's additive, whereas criticism or judgment is subtractive. Another close friend of mine used to say that when, when you give people feedback that, that feels like judgment. It's like you're stealing something from them. You're like being a, a thief, you're, you're stealing their self esteem. You're still stealing something really valuable from them. Whereas when you provide feedback in, in a healthy way, you're giving, you're giving something to them. So I'd love to get a sense of what have you, what have you learned about, about feedback because in your relationship with this particular manager, clearly you guys just, you know, you established the ground rules and the, and the context for that to happen and for it to be given and received in the way that, like you said, with love and not with judgment. But I would say it is a very small percentage of those, those kind of relationships in the, in the environments that we've seen in too many industries to count. Where feedback is, is, is received, given and received in that, in that way. In fact, more, more often than not, it's like, you know, somebody has an annual review and that's, and otherwise the kind of feedback they, they get is more like just always, you know, you know, what does what they did wrong or what they, they're never really interested in feedback. In fact, they're going to get feedback. Somebody says, hey, I'd like to give you some feedback. They, it's almost like your stomach turns inside out because now you know what you're about to hear is, you know, like what you did wrong or how.

You suck or yeah, it's going to be bad.

It's going to be bad.

Like, oh no, if the principal's off.

Right? Exactly. So you, you're already defensive.

Yes.

So share with us if there's some, some nuance to this and, and where in your current role or the roles that you've had have you been able to cultivate this, this feed forward, this really positive way of providing people with, you know, with, with the learnings?

Yeah. So I really learned a ton about feedback in my role with corporate projects. So, so a lot of my responsibility in that role was working very closely with our CEO and his sort of right hand. We just had this list of projects, right. Stuff that needs to get done that's really important for the company, but it's really nobody's job. So that was my job was to do all these things on the CEOs list. And so I'm working through these projects and tons of feedback that I received as well as I challenged myself in one of those years as a goal. I set it out, shared it with my leader at the time. I want to not only provide feedback to people that I'm working with that are working, you know, under me, my, my direct supervisors or my direct reports, but I want to challenge myself to give feedback up because that is really hard to do. And in my role that was something that I needed to get better at and I needed to, to be able to do because these projects that I was working on were pretty high level, working with a lot of the presidents of our different business units or div. And being able to provide feedback in the right way was something I wanted to learn how to do better. And so I learned all the ways to do it wrong before we figure out how to get it semi right. But to your point, it all starts with being in the right place. You gotta set it up so that it's coming from that place of positive intent. And sometimes I found that you have to ask, I have some feedback. Would you be open to hearing it? Because if they're not open to it at that time, it's immediate defense mode. Right. So there's no point in starting that then. Okay, then I would, I still want to have this conversation. Maybe we can catch up next week about it. Right. Just pivoting a little bit and trying a different, you know, method of delivering and receiving the feedback. We went to in that same role. We went to a leadership retreat with a whole bunch of our divisional presidents. And one of the things on the educational agenda there was 360 review.

Sure.

So you know, we're all reading our results and immediately everybody's like, I don't do that. That's not me. Like absolutely not. Like these people are all wrong or that was a certain situation. Like it's, you can argue anything away. Right?

Sure.

And so it, you really, if you really desire the feedback. I think that's part of it. You have to want it and you have to ask, I think, trusted individuals to give it to you because there are some people that are, are out to, you know, maybe don't have your best interest at heart. And so they may not be quite who you want to get feedback from. It's people that you trust that you work with who are really going to tell you and ride shotgun with you and let you know where your blind spots might be. So through that, great way to put it. Yeah, it was, it was really helpful to hear how, you know, other leaders were receiving feedback because sometimes you feel like, oh, it's just me. It's like, no, everybody thinks like this. So here we just have to get together and come together and how can you take that and digest it? Take some time with it. You don't like your initial reaction is going to be, no, that's not me. But read it over a couple different times, put it down, put it away, then re. Reflect on it. Because there are likely things you know, that you think aren't you, that are. And I'm a weirdo. I love feedback. I'm always asking for it. I want to know the good, the bad, the ugly. Because I really want to get better. I want to grow. Yeah, that's one of my goals. Always continue learning and growing it.

I think setting, as you said, if you're going to create an environment where, where feedback is something people are open to, of course it's, it's helpful to have people that are, you know, in that environment that are like you and that are open to it, that want it, crave it, etc. And, and I think for the most part, most people are not like you in that respect. I'm generalizing a little bit here, but I think a lot of people are resistant to feedback. And in part my, my theory. And we do workshops about this pretty frequently, and we've got one coming up with the city of Palo Alto on this exact topic. That the only reason we're doing that particular workshop on feedback is because out of another workshop that was one of the areas that they said, you know, we just don't. There's not a lot of trust that, or that there's trust issues and that people don't feel safety, psychological safety, and, and we were rooting it out as to, you know, what's like the first domino kind of thing. And for people to feel trust, they have to feel safe. And for people to feel safe, they have to be in an environment where they don't think that there are that people that their agenda to succeed is in conflict with someone else's agenda to succeed. And feedback is that really at the, at the grassroots level. Right. It's boots on the ground kind of stuff that if you can't tell, like if you're. And, and you know, sports analogies are great for lots of different things, whether you play sports or not. But it's like if you're on a baseball field or in a basketball court or something, you know, you would never imagine that a team that wants to win wouldn't give that. The teammates wouldn't give each other feedback about something because then they would be less likely to win if they didn't say, hey, by the way, you know, you want to, you want to slide over a little bit because this is likely the ball is going to remember last time that guy, you know, hit right up the middle. You weren't there. Remember that? Oh, yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right. I forgot about that. Move over and you know, you're in a better position. But somehow in the corporate world, in the bit, you know, in, in the world of work, that same situation is, is, is different. You know, like this person's like maybe trying to sabotage me or I can't really trust what their motives are. You know, like, who are they? You know, they mess up all the time or I don't know, it's all that stuff. So to create an environment first that a lot that. Where feedback is not the, the exception to the rule, but it is the rule and that it goes in all directions, like you said, it goes up, it goes down, it goes sideways side to side. I think that's really a big deal. So I, I'm just, I'm going to say that the way that, that, that we found that works for us in terms of, you know, like what you said earlier, setting it up. Right. Is to create its. It's kind of funny to say it this way, but it's a bit of a structure for those conversations that starts, that has three statements. And the first statement is what works for me is so what's working for me? Or what works for me? Or what worked for me is that you, you put together this amazing event, you found this incredible speaker, you put, you know, everything was on the right track that, you know, like all work for me. And what didn't work for me was that the speakers not able to get to the event now and that, you know, like this storm happened and the Planes canceled. And, you know, that didn't work for me. And I guess what also didn't work for me was I didn't get the sense that you were. Were like, on it, and with it being like that, the whole thing's going to become transparent tomorrow morning. What I read from that situation was that I needed to step in and kind of, like, figure it out. And so it didn't work for me that I didn't get the sense that you were already three steps ahead in the planning for all that kind of thing. So what could be. What could have been done differently is that, you know, while you were solving for that, maybe I guess you could have said to me, hey, I got this. I got us. You don't have to worry that that would have, like, quelled my inner. You know, I mean, and that's the feedback I might give to you, and then you might give me the feedback that you gave her, which is that what worked for me was that you were brilliant in, like, you were right there for the company and for all of us. So we. We all ended up looking good. Right. But what didn't work for me was that you didn't ask me whether I was already looking to solve it and had already made a plan and. And maybe even whether you trusted me to execute on that. So what could have been done differently in that situation was that, and so on and so forth. And I think when. When the structure, while it seems a little mechanical, what we found is that you always start with the positive. The sort of. The rules of road are you don't start with, hey, you know what? When you did that, that really annoyed me, or you messed up and we need to fix it, because that's the way people are used to getting it. Right. So you start with something positive that you don't make it personal. I mean, well, I should say you make it in. In this. In personal. In the sense that this is my perception. Because when you say something worked for you, it's not whether it worked, it's what. It worked for you. If you say something could be done differently, you're not saying it could be better because you don't know. Nobody knows. Yeah, it's a judgment call. Right. But. But it's your perception. And I think when that's in the context, then people feel safe because it's not. It's not like, you know, the God, you know, like, it's coming from. From the heavens. And, you know, this is. This is the gospel here. It's more like, you know, we're having a conversation and this is, this is how I, how I was processing all of this at the time and what I feel about it now. And this is what I think could be done differently and it goes both in both directions.

I love that script that like that three statements. I think that would really help people deliver feedback too, right? Like it sets up the recipient in a really good place but it's just as hard to be the feedback deliverer as it is to be the feedback recipient. So having a great like script to, to set yourself up for success, I love that because I'm just so bought.

Into what you said honestly that, that if, if we had environments where the relationship was more like the one with you and your manager, man, I mean so many, so many things that would otherwise be, get, you know, gnawing at people so that they're not happy, they don't feel fulfilled, they're you know, always kind of one eye on the next where they find a better opportunity kind of stuff. I mean that would just would, wouldn't exist in a relationship where they were getting the growth that they crave and they were also giving it, giving that opportunity to others. That would be great. I, I so love what you said about that. And, and I, I want to ask you in, in our final couple of minutes here just about the concept of resiliency like at at VGM or, or in any of your specific roles. You know, what, what is resiliency looking like these days? You know, so many people, they hear the word resilience now. I think they think it's, it's also being co opted as a word that means suck it up. It's just another way of saying hey, we got to be more resilient. It's like, okay, so you're asking me to do more with less again, aren't you? You know, or whatever you're asking.

Definitely, I can speak to that. In my, my current role, I was brought into our fulfillment business unit to upgrade our system. So we have one system that runs the whole kind of business front to back end and we needed to change our other was outdated and part of my, my role was to also oversee our customer service team. So they are the only front facing piece of our business. They get the good, the bad and the ugly. They get to be the, you know, the white knight and the, the cheerleader when we win and they take the brunt when it is ugly. And our system conversion as you could probably Im imagine did not go perfectly as many don't. And it Was brutal. It was a tough. It was a tough six weeks for that customer service team. And talk about resiliency. They just, they looked beat down sometimes and like, they were just like, how much longer is this gonna last? And, you know, I was relatively new to that team and having gone through that kind of battle together has really brought us closer as a team. They certainly trust me more as a leader and that. It just, it took this whole huge effort. I didn't know a ton about their job role. I would, like, I had had them for two months before we did this major conversion. And so it was like, I gotta jump in here and do the role with them. I need to understand exactly where they're coming from, how they're dealing with this, so that now I can help them really work through this. This is a hard time for us, and I need them to know it's going to get better. I know it's going to get better, but having zero trust in me. They don't even know me. Like, it's really hard to get from. This place really stinks. And this job just got incredibly more difficult to. Hey, guys. It's going to be okay, I promise. Like.

Exactly. I'm just laughing because I like, yeah.

And it was just. It was such a cool thing to be part of. And I just feel like it was, you know, the team and them wanting to serve the customer, their drive, their desire to not let, you know, the customer down. And, you know, I am a very positive person. And so just trying to bring out any kind of wins and positivity about how things are going, how the team is reacting to it, being there and just offering any kind of assistance that I could at the time was just made the world of difference. But I think, you know, going through that battle together, right, like, it's. You're in the trenches, you're really going through something hard, and coming out on the other side, like, really makes you resilient. It really does. And now my team, we. We just, just on the 1st of August, implemented another new system and it. It couldn't have gone better. And the team was so bought in. And they're like, yeah, this is going to be no problem. Right? Like, you could just tell, like, from the first time we did it to this second implementation, like, bring it on. Yes. Attitudes were different. Like, they had more grit, they were more resilient. They were like, yeah, we got this. Well, yeah, we can do it. It's been really cool.

You said something at the beginning, which I wrote down. It says, sometimes I have to step away. And, and I think that's also a tool when we think about how it is that, that we develop resilience. It's, it's not often by, by just continuing to ask your, your, your mind, your body, you know, other parts of you, I suppose your emotional body state for, for more when you're, when, when, when you're experiencing this depletion that I think is the paradigm shift that, that our research has shown, but that it's, it's that moment like you said to, to be able to step away, that that helps you to create a reset or an opportunity to recharge and then moving forward seems to be easier. And that first, that first event having been so difficult, I can see how that the period between the end of that and the start of a new one gave them this reset or recharge time so that when the new challenge came up, they were more, more ready to meet that challenge. They had the energy for it and they already knew that the outcome, you know, they could accomplish whatever that outcome was going to be, but a more, a more seamless integration of that change. So yeah, I think we've got to be ever more cognizant of the fact that we're more depleted than we know. I think that's just true of all of us and the people that we work with and the people that we lead, they're a lot more depleted than they are letting on, than they may be aware of consciously themselves, but also that they're, you know, letting on. And I think if we can see people in, in that, more in, in that realistic light, then it's not, it's not a question of, you know, can we take stuff off their plate or give them less because we all know, you know, depending on the market, the environment, that's just not, that's not happening. It's, it's more like, well, where, where are we making these really conscious oper, creating these conscious opportunities for reset for that recharge so that they, they're not more depleted but, but also being tasked with more. It's that they're, you know, they're ready for that next, that next incremental growth moment. So I just, gosh, I love this conversation. Sarah, I love your energy and the insights you provided today. Thank you for that.

Thank you. I have also enjoyed our conversation. It's been a pleasure.

Is there, is there one thing that you do on a, on a ritual basis? Because we're constantly tracking the leader leaders rituals for, for their recharge Is there one thing you do on a daily or a routine basis that is for your own reset?

I like to, I love exercise and so I like, I, before I was pregnant. I'm very pregnant. I don't know if you knew that when you met me last time, but I'm, I do. I'm due in next month, so I'm, I'm really excited. But when I'm not pregnant, I, I run or walk or get like, I need fresh air. I got to get outside. So I try to get outside for at least 30 minutes and walk or run or something and it just, it changes my whole mental state. It helps me so much be a better, a better leader at work, a better mom to my kids, better spouse to my husband. It's. I need it.

Yeah. Yeah. Just being, being in nature and getting that fresh air that is, I mean, again, it's the thing that's so obvious to us and yet every time we just do it, just walk off into the woods for 20 minutes or, you know, whatever, go sit in front of the, you know, out in sunshine and it, that, that's all we're really talking about. When we think about operationalizing resilience, one major component of that is simply what you do each day throughout the day that create those pockets for, for a recharge moment because you're just continuing. It's a bit like, to change the analogy or create an analogy for this, it's like a bank account. So with your bank account, if you make more deposits than you make withdrawals, you have a surplus. It's a wonderful thing.

Yes.

And with interest, you know, interest, it grows. But when you make more withdrawals and deposits, you have a deficit. And we, we know that we can't do much with a deficit in a bank account. It's the same with our energy or with a lot of, you know, aspects of, of what we need to succeed in, in, at home and at work. And you just can't be running at a deficit and expect that you're going to do well for very long. So with that, again, I just so appreciate your time today, Sarah. And people will be able to find out more in the show notes about vgm, about your role and you know, all this all and, and if people have questions, in fact, I'll say this to my audience right now, you can go to AdamMarkel.com forward/forward/ podcast and leave a comment or a question. If it's a question for Sarah, I will get that question to her. We will answer it directly and and it is us. It is not a, it's not any AI. It's just ordinary, ordinary human thinking and, and response, which is, I think, what we, what we crave a lot. So, Sarah, thank you again. I really appreciate your time today.

Thank you.

Well, Sarah Conger, what, what insights? I just, man, I couldn't get enough of that conversation and I felt like it was, it was putting me on my growth edge. I had the, the, the, the feeling that I was, I was learning something in the process and, and it was, it was cultivating more, more depth of thinking for me. And, and that was just so enjoyable. I'm sure you all got a great kick out of that. We had some good laughs and, and more importantly, I think Sarah really shared with us so many important things about. We, we talked about feedback and the importance of how feedback is given and, and how it is. Is received and that relationship, how you create a context for it so that it is truly healthy. And I think we, we were able to get into the, into the, the guts of it, if you will, in a way that I didn't expect. And I think it's really important because most situations that I see at work or even, you know, outside of the workplace, where feedback is, is, is necessary, just doesn't go well. Just doesn't. Isn't artfully done. And, and for the most part, people resist it. They. They aren't. Aren't interested in giving it or in receiving it because it is done. It is done without, without a, a lot of care. So today we got to talk about what that care looks like. We talk particular way to, to provide it and to create an environment where, where great feedback can only create safety and, and safety will create a trust. And I love Sarah's story about how in, in a very, in a, in a context that I can identify with, that she was putting on an event and she was waiting for her keynote speaker and the flight was, was being delayed and then ultimately canceled and she was in charge of this big event. But ultimately her, her supervisor, the person that she reported to, stepped in without speaking to her to solve that problem. And then she had the courage, I would say, and I think this, the, the intelligence to. After the event was done and everything had settled down to actually ask for feedback and, and to want to use that feedback as a way for her to grow and to learn and to understand where it was that, that her growth would, would create a different outcome in the future, an outcome where her supervisor would have trusted her more to actually solve that problem. Since it was hers to solve. And so we talked about, you know, what is, what's ours to do, what's not ours to do, what, where, where should we be fixing things and where, where do we want to resist our urge to be a fixer? So she started out by telling us that she loves problems and, and then the dominoes just began to fall after that. We talked about depletion and what it looks like to recharge and, and how that contributes to resiliency, especially in the times that we're living in right now where we're being depleted in so many different areas, mentally, emotionally, physically, and even spiritually, I would say. So. I love this conversation. I, I know it's going to be one that's going to stand the test of time if there are people in your world, personally or professionally, that would benefit from listening to some of what we talked about because we did cover some things that were personal as well as things that were, were business oriented, you know, Please feel free to share this episode. We would love for you to do that. Actually. That's what helps the algorithm to help us to help this podcast. These episodes get in front of more people. So we thank you for that. If you could leave a rating, hopefully you'd give a, give a five star rating to this conversation. But whatever makes sense to you makes sense to us. We appreciate the feedback, the feed forward, it helps us to, to bounce forward and, and always be moving forward that, that feedback is super, super helpful in that regard. So we appreciate it. And of course, you could just leave that review on whatever platform it is that you consume this podcast. If you've got questions for either Sarah or myself, you can go to AdamMarkel.com forward/podcast. Leave a comment or a question there and it will be myself or Sarah answering that question for you. And lastly, if you'd like to check out your own level of resilience, a snapshot in time, very simple. Go to resiliencerank.com and in three minutes, 16 questions later, you will get your immediate response. Looking at how resilient you are in those four different areas, the mental, emotional, physical and even spiritual realms of resilience. It takes just three minutes. It's entirely free. It's our gift to you. Resiliencerank.com so I will say once again, thank you so much for the support that you give this podcast, for being a part of our community. And for now I will just say ciao.

Thanks for listening everyone. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build Resilience and become Change Proof. Help us inspire others by sharing this episode and leaving your comments over@adammarkelle.com podcast. For more Resilience tips and strategies, including support for building Change proof teams, visit AdamMarkel.com BecomeChangeproof.