https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raKcriIpbMQ

Life happens and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markel and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change-proof.

Hey everybody, it's Adam Markel and welcome back to another episode of the Change Proof Podcast. I love the guests that I have in store for you today. I'm gonna read her bio and then we're gonna jump right in. Her name is Suzanne Ogle. She is a nationally recognized energy leader and president and CEO of SGA, Natural Gas Association and Gas Machinery Research Council, where she's transforming how the industry connects, trains, and leads. With a career rooted in boardrooms and breakout sessions alike, she's guided SGA's evolution into North America's premier learning and collaboration hub, all while championing reliability, innovation, and people. Known for her values-based leadership and mix of data, heart, and humor, Suzanne believes resilience begins with purpose, and change is the most powerful when it serves the greater good. You are going to love this conversation, so sit back and enjoy. my interview of Suzanne O'Keeffe. Okay, Suzanne, so it's fun to listen to somebody introduce you and share about your life and your accomplishments and all that kind of stuff. It's fun and it's strange and all that kind of thing. But my first question to you is actually, what is something that's not part of that bio, your CV as it is, that you would love for people to know about you? Something that's not included in that. that you would want?

I love that you said that I would love people to know about me because I'm going to keep some things not there. Yeah, no, you know, it's a good question. So, you know, the bio that you have, the CV, the LinkedIn, it really only gives you a snapshot, right? And if you look at all social media, it's a vision of who they want you to see. And, but, you know, I think I come from this background that to me is important. And I say I'm the caretaker for my family and I don't mean children, I mean adults. so that probably most people don't know that about me, but I'm not shy about it. And I think it's an incredible privilege to be in that position. I have people that love me, raise me well, and to be able to support them as they get older and need more assistance and to have that trust is in. It's important to me.

Yeah, exactly. I come from a place of service just from my upbringing as well. My dad was a civil servant. That's so I grew hearing about not just acts of service, but literally living a life of service. And then my mother-in-law was a teacher, my wife was a teacher for so many years. And even though they're not exactly civil servants jobs, I think they're mostly done by people that have a commitment to a purpose that is less about financial gain and more about giving something or creating something valuable for children or for others in that space. I feel like the work that you do in the world has an element of service involved in it as well. Could you say a little bit about whether does that resonate with you? Do you feel like you're in service in your role? And if so, how so?

Yeah, no, absolutely. I wanted this job. I took this job on purpose as the tail end of my career. You know, I had been in a lot of executive positions for companies in the industry coming up. And what I wanted to do was be able to serve on a bigger scale than just a company to make an impact and to help create conversations that made sense as I saw the conversations getting more polarized and to help people grow. I mean, I didn't come from my parents. I love them dearly, but they were not servant people. My mom was an artist for Walt Disney. My dad was a pilot. My grandfather was a farmer. My one before that was a tool and die maker, but I think they live as it through service in the way that they just, their, their being was like that and they still are today. So I think that's maybe where I got that definitely a principle purpose, require having a purpose for what I do. Otherwise, if I had to sit and twiddle my thumbs, I think I would just poke my eyes out.

Yeah, I'm like, I'm not a sit still guy. I've just, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting because I've been thinking that maybe the most difficult part of my childhood who's actually managing boredom I know that you laughed there, so maybe you can relate to that too. It's...

I was never bored, but I was into everything creating. I was making, I was in my dad's tools and drilling holes and making paper, I don't know, paper weights or I don't know what. I was embroidering. I mean, I did all kinds of things, but I was never bored. But, you know, they were trying to rein me in because I was in all their stuff all the time.

Well, this is, this is really what I'm getting at as well, is I got myself into a lot of things because I wouldn't, you know, being, being bored or, or, or sort of sitting around with nothing going on was just not a thing that I could, I just couldn't be comfortable in, in that. So, but to manage that boredom, I would do, you know, I would get myself into, I would get myself into stuff.

Can you imagine the kids that they, they're bored and they don't know what to do with themselves? Like, go outside and play. And then go ride a bike. I don't know.

My dad used to say something about boredom that, that I can't repeat here. It wouldn't be politically correct at the moment, but. Let's just say boredom was not acceptable. It wasn't tolerated.

It's not tolerated for me as an adult. I'm sure it's not tolerated for you as an adult. I've seen it.

Oh my God. And it's interesting because when we become adults, I think we use a different word for this. And maybe some folks are listening to us going, where are they going with this? And actually, I do have an idea of where this is leading for me anyway, because when it comes to this concept, I think people talk about it in terms of purpose or in terms of fulfillment, you know, that they're looking for a more purpose driven life. And to me, if you were a kid, you wouldn't use the word purpose or fulfillment in what you were up to or what you're interested in. You'd just be like, I'm bored. And then again, depending on who you're around, like when I was in that state, I was told, you know, that if you bored, I'll just say it out loud. And so if you're bored, go bang your head against the wall. That's what my dad would say.

Go read a book. Go.

Look what happened to your hair when you did that. I mean, look, right? I'd lost all my hair as a result. And your hair grows. And you know what? I never actually went and banged my head against the wall. And he never, he never banged my head against the wall either. It was like. But it was a sort of an attitude adjustment or shift, and. And it wasn't, like, kind and gentle or anything, even though he's a very kind. man and a gentle man in a lot of ways, but that wasn't a kind statement. And I think, look, when we get older, you know, how do we continue to activate our creative juices and do things that are activating the higher purpose that we are or that can be a part of what we do with, and stay out of boredom and stay out of this place where we only get ourselves into trouble. by staying in our thoughts or staying in a silo or staying separated or feeling like we're separated from others. You know what I'm saying? Because you lead teams and leading teams is leading people. I mean, that's fundamentally what that is. And when I look at people for whatever it's worth, I see them still, or at least I try to see them as like five and six year olds the way I still know I am deep inside. We're not very different than we were back then. so when you approach leading, leading adults, how do you, how do you view them? How do you see them? And do you also see that people struggle with sort of what I'm calling boredom, but you might, you might refer to it in some other way?

Yeah. You know, well, you answered the question, in my opinion, when you talked about it's, really, it's growth. And so, but, you know, everybody has a different driver, so it's not everybody wants to grow. But I think you do. I think growth keeps that purpose and it keeps you interested and keeps creativity and curiosity and stretching to something new? I mean, to me, curiosity is the fundamental value that somebody has to have. And it's interesting that you asked this question because I mentor younger generation executives, not executives, but professionals. And I laugh sometimes because they're 35-40, right? And I was way ahead of where they are at 35-40. And sometimes they envy the sense of purpose I have. And so they ask me, where do you get your purpose? No one can tell you your purpose. You have to know your, you have to figure that out by finding things that are meaningful to you.

Do not be bored. Or not become boring even, I mean.

And you know what? Listen, I mean, actually that's a big company trap that you get stuck in. And I'll tell you something that I think changed that is for me, as I did a bunch of startups, and in a big company, you get siloed into something that you do. and you don't have to touch everything. And so in startups, you have to touch everything and everything's your responsibility. And the whole thing working is your responsibility. And that's why it's unfortunately created this monster in me that I love to have my hands touching everything, interested in everything all the time.

I knew you were an entrepreneur the minute I met you. And I don't know why, because I didn't know your history or anything, but it just had a feeling like you were looking at everything. Maybe, you know what, why don't you set it up? How do we know each other? Let's just talk for a second about how to create context for our audience as to how you and I know each other. And then it'll mean something when I say, when I first met you and I saw you, I thought, oh yeah, she's really seeing what's going on in the room, like really seeing what's going on in the room.

So as the CEO of the Trade Association, we do conferences and I was looking for a speaker that was really going to resonate with my members and it's an industry that's in disarray. and change and a pretty fast pace of change and they need to take care of themselves. And so through a bunch of research, I ran into Adam and reached out and he graciously agreed to be a speaker at a conference that I did not attend.

That's right. We were not there the first time.

I was taking my dad down the Amazon River, which is absolutely a growth thing at 89. That was his bucket list and I couldn't have been more pleased to be down the Amazon River with my father. But because of a hurricane and being able to pivot, Adam, we rescheduled you for our conference that I was going to be at. And we can all thank, I think it was Milton for that. So Milton gets a commission for you. And Adam came to our management conference and spoke and really resonated with our group.

So I met you there. And so was the second time. And And then I had this just sort of feeling again that you were, 'cause a lot of times I'll meet some very senior level executives or leaders and they sort of feel like they were just dropped in by helicopter, you know? You know, they were air dropped into that moment and they're gonna be air dropped out of it as soon as possible kind of thing. But when you were there, I felt like that much more the sense that you were a part of everything that was happening, even though everything was happening as a result of the incredible work of the leaders that you've assigned that have been delegated those responsibilities. But I felt like you were, you had a hand in it somehow. So that was a sense, but I didn't know that to be the case. So to what extent was, is that sense accurate or, or not?

No, it's very accurate. I mean, but these are my members. And so I've been in a place that's, that's my happiest time when I get to be interacting with my members and I want them to have the best experience. And so I, you know, help lead my team in making sure that they're paying attention to everything because, you know, details are the most important part of it. And sometimes details are overlooked. And so every aspect of that needs to be paid attention to. So the, some of the experiences that, you know, they all want to book you more. And that's my job, is to make sure it's such a good experience they can't wait to book you more. Yeah.

So I, I want to get a sense of what your leadership style is. And I guess in part, it's because I think there are, there are leaders that, that come from a place where they are comfortable and touching or at least sort of having a hand in the, you have sort of the meal that's being created for the people that they're serving, you know, the folks that they're, I like to think of it as, as all business is a value proposition. We have to, we're creating value for people and, and To me, that's a loving endeavor. And if it's not a loving endeavor, then you could call it transactional, you could call it more of an extraction model, you know, what can I take, et cetera. And I want to come back to that a little bit later in a different context. But I want to get a sense of your leadership style having created in the past and being comfortable as an entrepreneur even. to what extent do you actually really look in on things or, you know, what is it? Do you really, truly trust people? Do you allow folks to run with things without sort of putting your hands on them as well? And, you know, what's true for you?

Well, trust is earned. And, you know, I just think somebody could be an expert, but that doesn't mean they listen. And so trust is a functioning to listening a lot. And it's evolving, right? I've been in this role for about six years and I was in executive positions before that, but not as a CEO. And that's a different level of how you lead and what you do. So it's, to me, the point right now is really about asking better questions and aligning the talent and creating a situation where others can lead. Earlier it was me, and so being the driver. So now I'm looking on being the multiplier and that's a different spot. And I think the hardest part, and you met my COO, Cindy, and the hardest part is the shift from us being the owners and the drivers to be the enablers that the other people will be owners and drivers. And so it's a work in progress, I would say. But always maintaining the responsibility that I feel to my members as the driving force and making sure that we're aligning with the strategic vision. that we have. And so we're setting a vision for the company and you came out during a rollout of a refresh and a rebrand. We're 115, 16 year old organization. Been going on for that long, but, you know, reinventing yourself isn't a bad thing and change doesn't make me run. I go, oh, change, that's exciting. Let's do it again. You know, I mean, like, I like it. So, and I come from a bunch of engineers that don't like it. So really learning to blend that how does change benefit you and what's that sidestep look like? It's really something that's, it's an important aspect of how I'm leading now and really trying to get people up and prepared. But I would say also, if you ask me as who I am as a leader, I'm going to be a straightforward person with you. I'm not going to beat around the bush. And so I have pretty high expectations of what good looks like, what done looks like. I'm happy to tell you what those expectations are. and if you're not meeting them, I, I'll give you coaching along the way, but we're not going to deliver something that's less than the quality we want to deliver.

Yeah. I love the way you framed that earlier as being the difference between being a driver and being a multiplier. And, and that's, that, to me, is a media takeaway from this conversation, because where, where, where is it that, that, that shift occurs or what does it look like when, when you actually are able to create Like almost alchemy where you create this exponential result or value from other people collaborating that, or that you don't actually have to be the one that is sort of forcing or pushing or actively- you- gotta own it. Engage.

Number one. They got to really own the result and the outcome and feel that rather than owning a task. But I think you have to have people below you that can look around corners and understand what the impact is. Because when you run a business, any business, even if we're a nonprofit, there's risk. And you have to manage that risk. And you have to think about everything that you do in the context of what's the value, what's the risk, and how do you balance that out? We have a responsibility to our members to manage their funds and their investment in this organization well. And that has to be first and foremost about you as you think about things.

Yeah, I don't know that everybody, you know, maybe it's a function of the responsibilities they've had or even just things that predated their employment, but not everybody is able to appreciate what it feels like to wake up in the middle of the night with a worry about whether the business will succeed or fail or whether even earlier on at stages in the development of a business, I've experienced this myself, maybe you have too. where you've woken up in the middle of the night worried about how to make payroll for that particular paper.

You know, we work in the natural gas business and the energy business. It's a secular business, especially if you're dealing with the supply end of it that's more secular than, you know, maybe the transmission end. But I can remember being at a service company that we were at for a number of years, 20 years, was one of the startup companies. And I can remember sitting down in a downturn and we pulled all the manufacturing people in the shop. I mean, all the manufacturing in this shop, they were looking at having to close the shop down because there wasn't enough business. It was an equipment company. We pulled all the sales people in the room and said, this isn't just your commission. This is their lives. Go figure out how to sell something because you're responsible to those people in that room and you go figure it out right now. And so having that level of responsibility is huge. And I mean, my father worked for an airline that went through an ugly period of time. and I can remember my father, it was right when I was in college, my grandfather was laying in a hospital and said, honey, I'm gonna pay your college for you. And I was happy, I was already working, right? But I can remember the stress that that was on my father. And, you know, I just think that as a business leader, you have enormous responsibility to the people that rely on you. And, you know, listen, I mean, it's funny that you say that about people don't get that and they don't. But I always use the same analogy about operators that run natural gas systems. And I said, it's like having a baby, right? And so if you are a contractor to this person, you go, oh, that's such a cute baby. Let me hold your baby for a bit. And then that baby starts throwing up. You go, oh, okay, that's your baby. Thanks for letting me hold it, right? And if you are an operator of a natural gas asset, you are number one compelled to provide the public with a reliable service. And when there are regulations around you and things that are restricting your ability to provide that, the enormous weight that that's on is huge. And you're there with that baby and trying to make sure all the public is served in the way that they have to be served. It's a huge art. I mean, I know my CEOs and my company take this so, so seriously, and I don't think people understand. that just the it's not a burden. It's it's a responsibility. It's a responsibility that you have to meet.

Yeah. I mean, and it's probably one of the greatest commitments there is. And I'm not saying that that the folks, you know, that that parents somehow have a corner on this or that you need to be a parent to understand this. I'm not saying either of those two things at all. I just know that when I think about our our business and the businesses that I've been a part of, they have very much felt similar, there's been a similar relationship from the standpoint of time, of energy, of focus, and even of love in that, the development of that business, the caretaking of that business as there has been in the caretaking of our kids. My wife and I, we have four kids and now we have three grandkids and stuff. And I just have always thought that in the middle of the night when that baby wakes up, it's your job to hold it and feed it. And when it cries and it won't stop crying to love it, and nurture it and all that. And what do you think a business is? It's exactly the same thing. When it's crying in the middle of the night for something, you're the one to either ignore it or shake it or nurture it and take care of it. And obviously we know the answer we want to have there and what would be the goal, but you're tested in those moments. I feel like we're going through a time right now and you alluded to it a moment ago, I think we're being tested that businesses and leaders of businesses today are being tested again. I mean, being a resilience researcher and somebody that speaks on this and our company trains on this, like this is repeat for us. We're agnostic to change because it'll, this disruption, the pandemic, you just on it, there'll always be something that is gonna be sort of shaking the ground beneath us. But this time feels like they always do feels a little bit interesting, different, unique. I want to get your take on it. What it, how do you feel about what's going on in the marketplace right now? And, and because your association supports leaders in those roles, these, basically these, these leaders that are taking care of these, these babies, which as we know, there's, their businesses are serving many, many, many people. So the ripple effect is enormous. I want to, I want to get your sense on what's going on in the marketplace and what's your thoughts around how you're supporting those leaders to support the people that they serve?

Well, you know, I brought you in for resilience. That's, that's the key. And so I think, I think resilience is very much grounded in being future focused. So if you, you know, I, I remember going to, a Houdini one time, and he was walking on a tightrope, and I never forgot this. I thought it was one of the best analogies I've ever heard. And they had the tightrope set up across the room, and he was walking with his pole on this tightrope and talked about how tightrope walking is like business and how if you are looking down at your feet, you're going to fall off the wire. If you are looking ahead, you can keep the business on the right track because I think it could be overwhelming to be looking down at your feet right now. But if you're staying future focused and you are thinking through what it is poor business, good business look like? How do you want to act as a business? What's your community look like? How do you service that community? How do you service your employees? You don't get lost in the noise of the moment. You get, you know, and for me, it's always about bouncing back from that moment and building capacity. And so learning through that, I think is important. And policy shifts, workforce shifts, there's all kinds of shifts, perception shifts, you know, all those shifts are okay. But being able to navigate through that is really the leadership currency that's demanded right now. And it's not to get stuck looking at your toes.

Yeah. When you said that a moment ago about needing to continue to learn and grow, it feels to me like the alternative for some, I think for some people, and they repeat this, is to almost see resilience as being that I'm a punching bag, that rocky, Balboa model of just, you know, take a hit, get knocked down, take a hit, get knocked down. But if you don't learn anything, if you don't learn anything from the experience to be able to add to your word capacity so that you can move forward, well, then you literally are just a punching dummy. And then, and that, that is, I don't know how you do anybody any good. I don't, I don't know. I don't know how.

I mean, that's your point, too, is that you got to take care of yourself. and so that's an important. So there's part of the resilience as well, really, like finding that what takes care of yourself so that you can show up in a way that adds capacity during change, during uncertainty. And, you know, listen, this is a, you know, if you go back to the vucha environment, which these, some of your people are probably too young to know what book is. Right. Volatile and certain, you know, what is a war term? I can't think of what the C and A is, but. Anyway, but it's volatility, right? It's volatility, it's uncertainty, and the way that people led, and especially in the natural gas industry, like I said, where we have lots of engineers who like to have all kinds of knowns and everything to add up just right. And it's just not the way it is anymore. There's less knowns and you have to navigate and you have to build capacity and confidence that can help you make good decisions with unknowns.

Exactly. I mean, it's tremendous. There's so many unknowns now. And I know the A is ambiguous.

In the- yeah, yeah.

I don't remember what the C is either, actually. But look, we're talking about this major disruption and- I'm sure you have a.

Smarter group than we are, so they'll know what it is.

Somebody's either knows it right now, they're looking it up, right? But they can leave a comment on it and it'll be in our show notes. We'll do that. But I want to get a sense of when you're speaking to these leaders, and without obviously giving away anything that's proprietary, are you hearing anything that either is sort of, you know, like, are you worried about what you're hearing? Are you, is it instilling greater confidence in you to hear what they're thinking or saying about the times that we're in? Yeah, I guess I'm asking for reconnaissance.

Yeah, the first word that comes to my mind is inspired. And I'm going to tell you, I have a huge board. I have 40 people on my board. That's a very large board.

It's a big, big board, yeah.

I have. six people that act in an executive capacity. So they're the ones I deal with on a day-to-day basis. But I have the top CEOs from around the country, all of North America, on my board. And when I listen to them and I hear what they're saying, I am inspired by the tremendous care that they have for their people and their companies, the Innovation drive that they have, the aspiration for bringing emissions reduction to what they're doing to improving and to becoming better and meeting the demand. I mean, if you look at the growing energy demand and the pressure to reduce emissions, it's like on these courses, right? And to have a group of C-suite that's really excited about the opportunity to meet that even in this very shifting sands, let's say it that way, right? It's inspiring. And I feel so fortunate to be the CEO that's leading in this role where I get to work with these phenomenal leaders that show up every day for their companies and for their communities and for, it's just really, it's, it's, it's, it's awe inspiring to me that I got to be in this place and be at this time.

I mean, what is it?

It would be so boring.

I already know the answer to this question when I ask it anyway, and it's the good lawyer in me or the old lawyer in me. When you listen to the board, when you're interacting with the board, you are no doubt inspired by them, as you said. What is, are you learning from them? Because you are a CEO yourself, you are a seasoned executive. So are you learning from this board of other CEOs on the regular?

I am sucking it in, man.

I'm like, I knew the answer to that, but all right.

Adam, I'm learning from you. I mean, hey, but let me flip this around. Can I flip it around? Can I ask you? You interview hundreds of leaders, right? You reflect on how they're going to navigate change, right? So you could, I'm going to turn the table if it's okay, can I?

Nobody ever does that, so go ahead, do it.

Oh, well, of course it would be me. Okay, so what's one of the changes that you in your life have resisted, but it's the best thing for your career?

Ooh. All right, so say it one more time.

I'll give you your solo a break here too. So, okay, change. People don't like it necessarily, but you're resilient, you pivot. What's a change that you resisted, but ended up becoming the best thing for your career or maybe personally for your soul, whatever that looks like.

Yeah, well, that, all right, I got to get two of them and they're both, and frankly, they're two, the last two books, so it's just that easy. There's so much that goes into a book, right? So the first book pivot, was a story about reinvention. And I was a lawyer for almost 20 years. And I was resisting a long for a long period of time, the idea that that I could that I could give up on something that I had spent so much time developing so much so much money had gone into, you know, going to law school for three years and passing the bar exam and all that kind of stuff. and then really getting a golden ticket to be really honest about it. There's a license to earn money in the law for sure, and some other things too. And I knew that it was totally eroding my soul the way I was showing up in that role. And I just knew that it needed a change. So that didn't happen overnight. It didn't happen easily. and I'd be lying if I didn't say that, that part of why I had the courage to even, even lean into the change was because of my, my partner, my wife. Because when I would say to her, hey, I'm thinking about this, like, waiting for, like, what's going to be the reaction to that? I never got, there was never, like, a snap, a sort of a, a, this, the sense that I'm in I never got the look that you're, what are you, what are you, what, are you an idiot? I got that look from colleagues, I got that look from other people. You know, like, you,'re out of your mind. What are you, are you crazy? My wife looked at me and instead it was always sort of a curiosity to use your word, like, what's going on, what's going on with him? And most of all, whatever it is that you want to do. we're in it together.

So interesting you're describing sunk cost bias, right?

It is sunk cost and it's the, and it's like one of the myths in the, in the book pivot was all about like that sunk cost fallacy. Yes, but say more. Yeah.

And so many people stay stuck in things because they've put this much into it without really understanding. It's an interesting story and it reminds me of kind of where I was at a time where there was a pivot because I worked for a company that had a private equity company come into it, and they turned over the executive team, anybody that was close to the CEO, they got to go too. And a lot of the people that were put into positions were people that I had helped get into those positions. And so I really felt like maybe it was a loss of control or I had put this much time into that. But when I looked back on it, it really cracked a different thing open for me. And I also think about it in terms of my parents. who are still have a fabulous relationship. And let me just say to all the people who are listening, there is nothing that you can do kinder for your children to have a good relationship if you're divorced. And my parents have a phenomenal one. And it's shocking to me how many people do not. And my parents are divorced. They're friends. My mother and my stepmother are friends. My mother's boyfriend and my father are friends. And they operated this way. Nobody would turn on anybody. but they also, after 17-20 years, decided not to suffer the sun cost bias and went to go live their best lives. And so if you can really soul search and find out, and it goes to show you, Adam, how important it is the person that you marry, because what you need is that person that challenges you, supports you, and gets curious rather than judges you.

And that's anybody close to you in your life, truly, because, yeah, I got lucky that that I found somebody early, early on, and I wasn't, you know, distracted and looking elsewhere or, you know, we just, you know, all that I could say we were meant, you know, all that romantic stuff I could say too. But the truth is it just, but it just ended up being like, I feel incredibly blessed and fortunate, lucky. You know, I think Warren Buffett said in a different context that by being born in the United States for him, It's like he hit the ovarian lottery. It's an interesting turn of phrase. But he basically said, and he was born at a time in the Great Depression when, you know, you wouldn't, and he was, didn't have, they were poor living in Oklahoma. It's like, you know, he didn't have a lot going for him, but he hit the ovarian lottery nonetheless because he was born in this country. And probably also because he was Caucasian at that time, because had he not been, it would have been potentially different for him. But I feel like there's a, there's a degree to which there are things that happen in your life. And if you can look at those things as being fortunate circumstances that enable you to then develop and, and be what you are today, but even more tomorrow, I think it's, it's a different, it's a different sort of lens that you're looking at it through. And so for me, in that moment when I was gonna give up a career that had been very profitable for our family and everything else, because of course there's a lot of, a lot of nerves around that, there's a lot of uncertainty around that. So to move forward and design, sort of design the pivot was the choice that my wife and I made together. I didn't come home and jump ship. And Josh Ship is an author who wrote a book called Jump Ship, funny enough. I'm not a jump ship guy. I'm an attorney. I'm conservative by nature, I think, in some respect. And yet I'm an entrepreneur. So these are the, you know, we're all a big jumble, you know, of things. But, but I even, even, being conservative, I, I thought that the more dangerous, the more dangerous thing to me personally, to my soul, to my own evolution, and to my family, to my relationships, to my finances even, was to continue to do something that I knew wasn't in my long-term best interest. And I say this now, and I'm so glad you, you asked this, Suzanne, because the truth is, I think a lot of people are going through, they're going through career change. And if they're not yet, there's some career potential career change or a work related change that's on the horizon. And I think when people think about that, the possibility that there might be a pivot coming, it can bring up so much anxiety and there's, and it can even get people really stuck in a disempowering place. So and, and I'm not a prognosticator. I don't predict thing. I'm not an economist, but I, I play one on TV sometimes because I study. I look at this stuff. I, I think we're gonna see Workforce reductions there, or it's already been happening for, you know, at least a year now, and yet we're still at virtually full employment. And that's remarkable. I think there are going to be some more restructures out there. And I know if you want to add some thoughts to that, but But people learning how to navigate the change and pivot even, I think is an essential skill today.

I think that you said something to me that is the one that hit me there, you should plan your pivot. And this is what I always tell my son and this is how I thought about it. This is why growth is so important. You get lots of tools that you can use in your tool belt and you can pull out different skill sets at different times, but it's up to you as a person to always be growing and learning. and that way when the door opens or you have to plan a pivot, you have other things that you can pivot on. If you wait till that moment comes and then you're caught flat-footed, you're further behind than you would have been if you were continuing. I mean, so look at my, in my career, I have been a, a diagnostician. I'd started out as that. I was a, I owned a Sonic, which that was exhausting. I was a sales assistant. I was a director of marketing. I was a chief commercial officer. I was a vice president of investor relations. And each one of those is because I was always seeking to grow and learn in different ways. And when the door opened up, I was able to step over there and I've got confidence to know, oh, I can do that.

And like you said, it's the difference between designing sort of the design aspect of the pivot versus the the default pivot, which for so many people is the case, which by that I mean they wait for the tide to change or for the circumstance to dictate to them that they must make a change. I did the same thing. So I wrote a book called Pivot. It was all about designing it. Ended up running a company as the CEO of an organization, and my partners, we did not see eye to eye almost from day one. The writing was clearly on the wall. and I just broke every one of my own sort of rules or the things that I had stated as being the way you pivot with intention and all that good stuff. And I literally had my blinders on to all that stuff and waited, sort of went through six years of knowing that the writing was on the wall that we're not meant to last and that this is not going to be a good fit. And yet I sold myself a different story until it become, it'll became, like you say, a little bit flat-footed a little bit like going, oh, the change is going to happen now, right now, you know, as opposed to, yeah, this change is happening.

Yeah. But going back to where you were is, I mean, that the cost to your soul, your heart, your health, everything else, your mind, your families, the people around you when you're in a job that you don't like or, I mean, listen, I get people have to pay bills. It's not lost on me. They're single parents that don't get to have that. opportunity. You know, there's a lot of side hustles going on, but you always have to balance. What does that look like? What's the cost? Again, going back to business, what's the risk? What's the benefit? What's the opportunity? And how do you position it so you have the most agility to seize the opportunity that's there?

Indeed. If we're speaking to leaders now, as opposed, you know, like senior level folks that are making some of those decisions about, about what you know, is happening in their own workforce. I would just like to say this too, you know, this repeat cycle of sort of contraction and expansion that we see in business all the time. I really see it as wasteful in so many respects because, you know, when times are uncertain, there's a sort of a tightening in a scarcity mindset that sort of takes over. And then when things are more clear and there's more certainty and It's, you know, the wind is at our backs, then there's some other thing that's happening. And it really, it's such a, it's so jarring to the workforce. And I'm having more conversations with strategic people inside of organizations where my one question to them to start with is, to what extent are you including workforce risk as part of the planning around your strategy and what there would be So whatever that, that those outcomes are that you're looking to attain, to what extent is that workforce a risk? That's part of that. And often I get a blank stare because they've considered macro and micro factors. They've looked at so many things, even, even in the political arena, they've looked at those as being risks, but they're not necessarily thinking, well, what if my, what if my workforce, what if our employees are exhausted? what if they're thinking that they're still, you know, they're sort of in the job with one leg, but they're really in with one and out with one, you know, this thing that's sometimes referred to as quiet quitting. What if we lose people because they've become, you know, sort of opted out themselves or because we've chosen to just again reduce our workforce thinking that we're gonna you know, shore up our finances and, and, and make Wall Street happy or whatever it might be. But ultimately, when we do that, we've, we've eroded the trust of the people that are still there, and, and we've not created a best and preferred environment or culture for people to want to come and contribute. I see that as so short-sighted and I get the realities of the numbers because I've run businesses to understand that that's, that is the thing that will keep you up at night sometimes. But I also realize there's other, there are other ways to do it. The guy Gary Ridge, who's the CEO, former CEO and chairman of WD-40, which is a publicly traded company as well, been around for a really long time under his 25 years in the seat, he never had a reduction in force. The people were let go, of course, for behavior and other, you know, other things like related to that. But, but when times were lean, they figured out, they got together and figured out how not to do that. I just want to get your, what are your, do you have thoughts around that concept of how when things get tight and we're in a contraction period right now that one of the first things that happens is they start letting go of the marketing people, they start letting go of the training and development folks, they freeze the budgets, but it's really the reduction in force that I'm curious what your thoughts are.

Well, good, Laura, I have so many thoughts around this. So, you know, number one, back to what you're saying is the workforce is important and it's a high risk. And it's, you know, SEC and McKinsey had a study like this is on a higher risk. And I think SEC said this is a material risk to businesses workforce. And how do you do them? And obviously we run a training organization. And so I see investment in the workforce is important. And I'll talk about that in a second. But one thing I think is, is that employment is an agreement. and there has to be an agreement on the employee side as well to put your full effort into the, it's not a free ride. And so I think when people try to skirt putting their full effort in, it exasperates the cycle that you're talking about, which I don't think is good either. I also think that, you know, we're doing a survey right now to our board, our training professionals, and our employees. and I could see a gap in how executives see what the middle level sees and what the bottom people want. And again, this is going to take you back to listening and then being informed in the thoughtful way. And so the workforce, they need to show up in a way that adds value to the company, and we need to provide them an opportunity to have agency for their own development. And then it'll be easier to sort out the people who are contributing to the company and the people who are looking for every ride. Because if you're contributing to the company and you have agency and you're investing in the company and yourself, that's a valuable employee. Somebody who is more of a compliance mindset and you have to get them to compliance training and then you have to discipline them to do compliance training and you have to make sure that they're working their full hours and they're not thinking they're just tasking and checking off a box. That's not your best employee, right? And it's not necess, they're showing up, but they're not contributing at a level that creates that agreement that the employer and the employee should have together.

Are you taking more than, than you're giving?

And, well, I mean, it goes back to keeping your humanity about, I mean, people, you know, especially in this remote environment and the AI and all this, people want to send emails, the relationship aspect. of that is a detriment to maintaining that very healthy relationship that makes a company thrive and a person thrive.

Indeed. So as we wrap up, I want to get two things out there on the record. First of all, I want to find out how you've, because you've been a serial pivoter. I've not described you this way, but you have, you've lived all those principles. So I want to understand how you've been resilient through that. Like what's been your a bit of the recipe or even a thing that's just sort of go-to for you. And if you were, you know, when you're weighing in at the board level, is there a piece of advice? Is there some reminder? Are you there sort of saying to that group that you're learning from? Because I know they're learning from you as well. I wanna, I wanna get one thing that you contribute in that environment where they're, where you believe that there's, there's a, or at least it's your intention that they're, that they're you know, they're taking an insight from you that you think is really valuable. So those two things, your resilience and what's that thing that you're also contributing at that board level?

Okay, so I'll work backwards. I think at the board level, the thing that I continue to bring home is the investment in each other. We're a membership organization. How you invest in the organization allows me to invest back to you, and that's going back to that reciprocal relationship. And so it's bringing that front and center and helping them understand what does this decision look like and what does this mean to your employees and what does it mean to the association? So closing that loop and it's not that they don't get it, it's providing information in a non-agendaed way that allows them to interpret that and apply it in their own context. And I think it's taking the agenda out of the information that really allows them to then process that in their own manner. And then your question was something around my resilience.

So yeah, relative to your own pivots in both professionally and even personally, how do you maintain your level, high level of resilience?

Oh yeah, well, okay, so I'm not sure it's a good answer, but it's the answer. And so I believe in compartmentalization enormously. And so when I have a huge load to carry or I have something I'm having to deal with in multiple competing priorities, even personally and professionally. I put each thing in its box and I deal with it exactly when I need to deal with it. And I don't let my boxes overlap in terms of my emotions or my energy. And I come full force for this box when I need to, and I come full force through that box when I come to. But if I was to look at all my boxes together at one time, it would be a typhoon of overwhelm for me. And I can't let myself get overwhelmed so I could show up in the best way for everything and still think strategically. and show up generatively. So that's my answer. And I'm not sure it's a good one, but it's it.

Suzanne, I think it's what you said earlier too. It's like not looking down at your feet when you're on the tightrope, you know, not looking down to see, oh, how high up am I and that kind of thing. But it's that same idea of just, you know, staying focused on that one thing or what's in front of you and I suppose going at.

Or think about flying the plane. if you've got your engine out, which you're going to focus on is the field in front of you and landing, right? And you're looking at your horonics. And so you have to be able to work on horonics to get your plane to land. And so I have to be able to work on that as a CEO and as a mother and as a caretaker for an aunt and, you know, all these different things. You have to be able to be able to, to judge the distance out in front of you and, and put your effort and your focus into that at that time.

Yeah, I think we're, we're for me, what that relates to is some research that we've done on, on multitasking. And I think the idea here is that we need to be able to create more, be fully committed, more commitment in the present, in, in the present moment than we do, because I think so often we've got multiple tabs open on our, our computers and on our phones and everything and the level of commitment that we have in any singular activity or even singular thought at times, I think is really been sort of, it's waning. And so a shift it can be to be thinking about in, as you were saying, I'm doing one thing or I'm compartmentalizing this one thing that's getting my full attention in this moment. And that's all that's getting my full attention. and the reason I say this not to sound because I people have said this before, you know, about multitasking is that for me as a business, somebody that that looks looks after not just the business I'm, I'm in, but the ones that I get invited to be a part of, to be in on the inside for a while, I see that there's a lot of unforced errors and I don't have a lot, you know, my spiritual practice includes being more patient and I have a lack of patience for unforced errors. Or at least I've had some lack of patience and am working on that. But, you know, whether it's sports or it's business, these are, you know, good and now, you know, good things to look at in that context. Unforced errors are just, they're just, they're optional.

Yeah. There's no reason to struggle. Struggle is optional.

And, and, and failure is optional.

You're making your life harder. Yeah, you're making your life harder. You're making your life harder. It has to be. Exactly. Don't make easy hard, right? I have a sign Adam that says patience is a virtue. It's just not mine.

There it is. So how do you stop making unforced errors? I mean, and, and the, the best answer that I've got and, but it's not just a, you know, I'm a second that, that, of, of incubating this answer is this level of being more present in the, in the tasks because then it doesn't mean you're not gonna make mistakes. I wanna be clear about that. We just make better mistakes. We make a higher quality mistake. In fact, a mistake to your point earlier that leads us to learn something that then leads us to grow. Whereas when you make an unforced error, it's usually the result of being, it's like a sloppiness, but it's a sloppiness that comes from, oh, I didn't have time to proofread that, or whatever the thing might be. But because I was doing six things all at once, and I felt the pressure, to be six things and all that.

I think, you know, look at this conversation we're having and I think being that you see this a lot with all the teams and the zoom and people don't turn their cameras on and they're trying to get their work done on the side and what you're missing is the moment and being able to look at you even if your eyes are tiny over there in your little screen, but you're still, I'm looking at you, I'm engaged in this conversation and I think that's important and it just going back to it brings you back to humanity. about why you're here. You're here with people, you're here to do a job, you're here working for people. And it takes it out of the check a box, move on space.

Yeah.

Because they can get computers for that.

Exactly. So to what you said earlier was that it's, it's, there's a reciprocal responsibility here on both parts. And I would think that, again, for some people that are, that are listening to this right now that have some decision making ability when it comes to, you know, who stays and who goes. My hope is that that gets fully weighed in, that you're really assessing people on an individual level as to whether or not they are showing up in the way that you were describing earlier and are contributors truly versus just somebody that, you know, their number falls outside the line. And because of that, You know, it's-.

Well, and people need that feedback too, right? Because in their head, they could be thinking they're showing up like a rock star and you're going, you know what? You're doing okay, but you're not killing it. And they need to have that. If everybody's just cheerleading you along all the time and going, oh, great job, you did your job. You know, I mean, I had somebody turning some KPIs and their KPI was to do their job. I go, we're not using KPIs that are to do your job.

Right. We're, you know, we're moving strategic goals. It's, it's different. Yeah.

Yeah.

So tell them, right?

I did.

All the action is to actually tell people. And again, I, having been a lawyer.

Talk to them, be honest with them. Tell them the goods and all of a sudden then lay them off. Cause you never were honest with them.

Exactly. There you go.

Wow.

Because that breaks, as you said, that breaks a kind of a social compact that used to exist that I think has eroded over time. So, yeah, let's think of people in the way, you know, as talent, not resources perhaps, but to reframe it so that they get treated in the way that you just described. You tell them where things are working and where things could be done differently, because then if you're going to make a change, it's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it?

It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it?

It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it.

And you don't have to be mean when you tell them. Don't be mean, right? Be kind, be kind, but be honest.

Suzanne, I've absolutely loved this conversation and we may just need to do a part two because I feel like we're just scratching the surface of where we could go. But for now, anyway, I want to give you the last word. So you're in an amazing role and it's an evolving role. Is there something that you're seeing on the horizon that you want to share with us? Is there an aspiration or even a hope, prayer for what the future looks like. I'm open to just, I want to listen to your last words for the show.

I want to say thank you first because it was absolutely a delight to talk to you and it is fun and I can't wait to see you again when we see you at the Operations Conference coming up soon. But, you know, I think to me, I think it's a really exciting time because there's all kinds of ways to do things differently and how do you harness that for good? And it's an opportunity to work smarter, work better, work more intelligent, drive home things, and then make sure that you got to hold that ethics guard there. I think that's really important. So I think people have to be really grounded in their values and their ethics about how do you use this in a way that is maximizing the good. And I love an opportunity to change this. And I came from the plain facts paper actually before that, when it was that thermograph facts, right? and I remember a CEO I had that said, you guys don't need a computer. That's not going anywhere. It's just going to cost us money. We'll get one and you guys could sit there together. So anybody who could grab this moment and see the opportunities but use them in a responsive way that does better for society, I think it's a really, it's a privilege and it's an exciting time. It really is.

I'm excited. And Suzanne, thank you so much for your time today. It's been an absolute blast for our listeners. They know They'll find more about you and more about your organization as part of the show notes. If you've got questions for Suzanne or myself, adamarkel.com/podcast, you can leave a question there, leave a review as well. That's so helpful to us and we appreciate the time that you spend to do that. So for now, anyway, I will just say ciao for now. And again, thank you so much.

Thanks, Adam.

Well, I love that conversation. I hope you did as well. Suzanne is a remarkable person. She's a I would describe her as an intuitive leader. She just, I think, has so much experience as a person in her own growth, in her own evolution of her career paths, that she just comes to the table with a knowing, with a confidence for sure, but with also a deep sense of both purpose as well as what will move the needle and how others in leadership roles can can evolve and grow and provide an environment for people to grow and evolve as well. Because what else is the workplace? It's just a microcosm of every other aspect of our lives. It's either a place where we're growing or it's a place where we're dying. And I think in the majority of instances where people are unhappy at work or where they're not fulfilling their potential at work, it's because there's something there that's not contributing or acting as a catalyst for them to show up as their best. You know, that's a question for leadership to ask. That's a question for the culture, for assessing what's happening inside that culture if it's not actually bringing out the best of the majority of folks that have been invited into that environment. You know, not everything's a good fit for everybody. I mean, there's no question that sometimes when it's not a good fit, then a change is necessary. But I think often we are wasting resources, the most important resources, which are the talent that we get to make everything work. I mean, we know technology is a huge catalyst and a huge driver of growth right now and a potential for greater growth in the future. And yet, ultimately, it's human talent that drives and will multiply the opportunity for value creation and success. And I love how Suzanne actually described or used those words to describe her transition into the role of CEO as moving away from being sort of a driver to becoming a multiplier. And I thought that was a takeaway for me personally and one that I would imagine all of you sitting there listening to that were also inspired.

By.

I love the episode. I love the conversation. Of course, if you want to find more about what Suzanne has been doing in the world and what her organization is actively engaged in, you'll feel free to peruse the show notes. Also, if you've got questions for Suzanne or for myself, adammarkel.com/podcast, a great place to leave it. And if you love the episode, please share it with colleague, friend, family member that might benefit from it as well. and feel free to leave a review on the platform that you consume this podcast from. Taking the time to do that is truly a blessing to us because it allows for the algorithm to put the podcast in front of more and more potential viewers, listeners, fans, if you will, but to join the community. And we love how the community has continued to grow, and that's because of all of you. So thank you so much for taking the time to do any of those things or none of them. Either way, it's it's all good and we appreciate you. So with that, I'll close out just by saying ciao for now, and we'll see you again. Thanks for listening, everyone. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build resilience and become change proof. Help us inspire others by sharing this episode and leaving your comments over at Adam Markel adammarkel.com forward slash podcasts for more resilience tips and strategies including support for building change proof teams visit adammarkel.com forward slash become change proof not gonna make mistakes so I want to be clear about that We just make better mistakes. We make a higher quality mistake. In fact, a mistake to your point earlier that leads us to learn something that then leads us to grow. Whereas when you make an unforced error, it's usually the result of being, it's like a sloppiness, but it's a sloppiness that comes from, oh, I didn't have time to proofread that, or whatever the thing might be. But because I was doing six things all at once, and I felt the pressure, to be six things and all that.

I think, you know, look at this conversation we're having and I think being that you see this a lot with all the teams and the zoom and people don't turn their cameras on and they're trying to get their work done on the side and what you're missing is the moment and being able to look at you even if your eyes are tiny over there in your little screen, but you're still, I'm looking at you, I'm engaged in this conversation and I think that's important and it just going back to it brings you back to humanity. about why you're here. You're here with people. You're here to do a job. You're here working for people. And it takes it out of the check a box, move on space.

Yeah.

Because they can get computers for that.

Exactly. So to what you said earlier was that it's, it's, there's a reciprocal responsibility here on both parts. And I would think that, again, for some people that are, that are listening to this right now that have some decision making ability when it comes to, you know, who stays and who goes. My hope is that that gets fully weighed in, that you're really assessing people on an individual level as to whether or not they are showing up in the way that you were describing earlier and are contributors truly versus just somebody that, you know, their number falls outside the line. And because of that, you know, it's.

Well, and people need that feedback, too, right? Because in their head, they could be thinking they're showing up like a rock star, and you're, you know what? You, you're doing okay, but you're not killing it. And they need to have that. If everybody's just cheerleading you along all the time and going, oh, great job. You did your job. You know, I mean, I had somebody turning some kpis and their kpi was to do their job. I go, we're not using kpis that are to do your job. Right.

We're, you know, we're moving strategic goals. It's, it's different. Yeah, yeah. So tell them, right?

I did.

All the action is to actually tell people, and again, I having been a.

Lawyer, talk to them, be honest with them. Tell them the goods and all of a sudden then lay them off. Cause you never were honest with them.

Exactly. There you go. Wow. Because that breaks, as you said, that breaks a kind of a social compact that used to exist that I think has eroded over time. So, yeah, let's think of people in the way, you know, as talent, not resources perhaps, but to reframe it so that they get treated in the way that you just described. You tell them where things are working and where things could be done differently, because then if you're going to make a change, it's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it?

It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it?

It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it? It's not exactly new news, is it.

And you don't have to be mean when you tell them. Don't be mean, right? Be kind, be kind, but be honest.

Suzanne, I've absolutely loved this conversation, and we may just need to do a part two because I feel like we're just scratching the surface of where we could go. But for now, anyway, I want to give you the last word. So you're in an amazing role, and it's an evolving role. Is there something that you're seeing on the horizon that you want to share with us? Is there an aspiration or even a hope, prayer for what the future looks like. I'm open to just, I want to listen to your last words for the show.

I want to say thank you first, because it was absolutely a delight to talk to you, and it is fun, and I can't wait to see you again when we see you at the Operations Conference coming up soon. But, you know, I think to me, I think it's a really exciting time because there's all kinds of ways to do things differently, and how do you harness that for good? And it's an opportunity to, work smarter, work better, work more intelligent, drive home things, and then make sure that you got to hold that ethics guard there. I think that's really important. So I think people have to be really grounded in their values and their ethics about how do you use this in a way that is maximizing the good. And I love an opportunity to change this. And I came from the plain facts paper actually before that when it was that thermograph facts, right? and I remember a CEO I had that said, oh, you guys don't need a computer. That's not going anywhere. It's just going to cost us money. We'll get one and you guys could sit there together. So anybody who could grab this moment and see the opportunities but use them in a responsive way that does better for society, I think it's a really.

It'S a privilege and it's an exciting time. It really is. I'm excited. And Suzanne, thank you so much for your time today. It's been an absolute blast for our listeners. They know They'll find more about you and more about your organization as part of the show notes. If you've got questions for Suzanne or myself, adamarkel.com/podcast, you can leave a question there, leave a review as well. That's so helpful to us and we appreciate the time that you spend to do that. So for now, anyway, I will just say ciao for now. And again, thank you so much.

Thanks, Adam.

Well, I love that conversation. I hope you did as well. Suzanne is a remarkable person. She's a I would describe her as an intuitive leader. She just, I think, has so much experience as a person in her own growth, in her own evolution of her career paths, that she just comes to the table with a knowing, with a confidence for sure, but with also a deep sense of both purpose as well as what will move the needle and how others in leadership roles can can evolve and grow and provide an environment for people to grow and evolve as well. Because what else is the workplace? It's just a microcosm of every other aspect of our lives. It's either a place where we're growing or it's a place where we're dying. And I think in the majority of instances where people are unhappy at work or where they're not fulfilling their potential at work, it's because there's something there that's not contributing or acting as a catalyst for them to show up as their best. You know, that's a question for leadership to ask. That's a question for the culture, for assessing what's happening inside that culture if it's not actually bringing out the best of the majority of folks.