Leadership Resilience And People-First Approach With Joe Caldwell

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markell and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change.

Proof.

Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Change Proof podcast. I'm your host, Adam Markel and you're going to love my guest today. His name is Joe Caldwell. I met him a couple of months ago at an event that we were at together. He is the CEO of Bartlett and West, a 100 employee owned S Corp ESOP Engineering, Architecture and construction company that focuses on leading communities to to better tomorrows. His tenure with Bartlett and West has been a 30 year journey. He's held a variety of roles including project engineer, project manager, division director, market leader, Marketing director, and now the CEO. Being focused on creating and developing deep relationships has been his focus at every stop along his career and he is committed to helping others succeed. You're going to hear that, you're going to hear that just from, from his own way of answering questions in, in addition to the things that he actually says. So this is a guy I think you're going to learn a lot from. I know I have a quality human and, and somebody we're going to enjoy having a conversation with. So sit back and get ready for my discussion of leadership resilience with Joe Caldwell. All right, Joe, so I mean I know this is not typically your bag to be on podcasts or what have you. It's not what you do day to day. It's fun to hear you, your bio be read by somebody else. I think it's kind of cool be introduced or whatever, but not even talking about your, your CV at the moment. What I really want to know is what's one thing that wouldn't be a part of your history as a leader that you would love for people to know about you? At the outset of our conversation, one thing.

Sure. Yeah, sure. You know, I think about engineers and you think technically train people a lot of math and science. We get zero soft skills. So, so I, I got very fortunate when I got out of school to take a job with Bartland west, who I'm still day 30 years later and learn quickly that it's about the people, it's about the relationships. We have a phrase we use around here. We talk about investing in people both professionally and personally. So there's, there's certainly in our business, there's Lots to skill training around the technical aspects of the job, making sure that you can do your job effectively, you know, you can get licensed, which was really important in our world. But the piece that really appealed to me right out of the gate was the personal investment. You know, building life skills, teaching people how to interact with others in an effective manner, how to have effective conflict with people, how to, how to even have conflict, quite frankly, because engineers, technical people a lot of times aren't very good at that. So I love the investment piece and not being from Kansas, I thought I might be here three or four years and kind of fell in love with the culture of hey, we're going to invest in you as an individual. And you know, that's one of the things I'm really proud of about Barlon west is we spend a ton of time and investment and money and building, whether it's one off training opportunities or development programs for people. So it's really important to our business. We tell people all the time that are new to the company. If we get shortlisted to interview for a project, all three or five of the companies, however many get shortlisted, they can all do the work. From a technical standpoint, the differentiator is in how you handle the people skill part of that, what you're offering them, how you're connecting with them, understanding what they need out of this as an individual. So I could go on and on, but it's, it's really kind of the people part of it that has been really appealing to me about our company and why I've been here for as long as I have.

So I got that so firsthand when I, when I came out to visit with you and your folks, I got, I got that sense and a lot in what you just said. I want to dig into a few of them so hopefully I'll remember everything I wanted to ask you. But the first thing is let's, let's just establish a little, you know, sort of time context. You've been with this organization for 30 years, three decades, so, and you got there and that's the way the culture was. How, how, how long has this organization been around? What's, what's that look like?

Yeah, so it's, it's going to be 75 years coming up here in a couple of years. So we've been around since 1951. I will say, you know, one of the things that appealed to me right out of the gate, as you mentioned in the Bio, we are 100% S Corp ESOP, which means every employee in the, in the business owns a piece of the company and the company funds that own is a really cool model. You're not investing your own money per se on that in that. But certainly the culture has changed over those 30 years and it has evolved and it's evolved for the better. You know, I, I would say back in the, the beginning it was a little bit more partnership oriented from a mentality standpoint. And then we had some leadership changes that occurred a couple different times and each one of those leaders added an element of the, the people first mentality and really continue to build on that from my perspective, had lots of experiences at this point. I am a huge believer of if the people in the business are happy and satisfied and challenged and want to come to work, virtually everything else takes care of itself. Your clients are going to be happy, you're going to make money, you're going to have lots of opportunities. So if you start with the individuals in the business first, I just think it naturally leads itself to success.

Do you have any sense of the, the, the reason why this has been a cultural, almost like a gene, you know, in the DNA of this organization? Because like you said, it's an engineering firm and in that engineering, architectural and construction sort of ecosystem, engineers are pretty, you know, buttoned up, as you know, would say. I went to school with a bunch of engineers and was on swim team, actually on a, on a collegiate swim team with a bunch of engineers, electrical engineers and mechanical eng engineers. And, and I remember that about them then, you know, these, these guys were, they were, they were left brain, you know. Really.

Yeah, there's no doubt about that. We all can kind of be stereotyped into that. But I think that to answer your question, somebody way smarter than me and with a lot more people skills than I will ever have decided, hey, we know that we need to differentiate ourselves in some way, shape or form. And, and they quickly started adopting programs and bringing them to the company. You know, one of them we call Mandeville, it's a very old system. It's a way of communicating. Listening is really the key skill set there. And hearing what's important to people and understanding why it's important to them. We all go through what we call Mandeville training within the business. And you can certainly use it for your clients. You can use it with your co workers. We tell people you can even use it outside. Whether you work in a social services organization might be helpful at home with your friends to connect with people is really important. Somebody many years ago said this is, this is an important part of our business and we need to be really good at it if we're going to be different from all the other engineers that are out there. So that's kind of foundational for us.

Yeah, that's a differentiator for sure. I mean, I think, and it's funny too, because I was a lawyer for just about two decades myself, and one of the things that I would always say at a certain point in my career and certainly since then, is that the client management side of the legal profession is, was so lacking, was so missing and missing. Certainly when, when we were, when we were getting our formal education, I mean, primarily through three years of law school, there was just nothing that I can recall that was devoted to that. And I imagine for engineers, not a lot different that, that just not a, you know, I don't call it a soft skill because I think it's almost, it's not pejorative, but it's like diluting the value of what it truly is.

Yeah.

What, what could be more important, frankly, than managing clients, managing their expectations, managing the process? And, and what I see, and I'm going to ask you about this too, is just, and maybe this is, this is not what you see in your organization, but maybe you see it, observe it in, in others. I've detected that communication has gotten worse and worse over time. You're laughing. All right, so what's your thoughts on that?

Yeah, if I've got a hot button, it's, it's only communicating through email. I, I struggle with it. I think it's, email is a great tool for certain things, but it's not going to deepen relationships. It's not going to get the other person to know you and you to know them. It's not, it's not for you to understand what the client really wants from their needs. It's, it's a factual. Hey, here's, here's what you needed to know. I'm recapping our meeting. Here's our next meeting. But you're not. When you have a conflict, you have something you need to kind of debate out with somebody. You're not doing it through email. And I feel like, and we're guilty of it too. But I think just by and large, people are so guilty of behind the scenes screen kind of communication. And to me, there's nothing more powerful than I prefer to be sitting in your office with the Adam having this conversation. Next best, best things to do about video. And third would be picking up the phone and My very last is let's, let's email about about it.

Do you, you know, not to sort of morph into our, into putting on our social scientist hat or anything, but you know, just working with a lot of people, dealing with a lot of people as we both do, you know, it feels like sometimes people are hiding that there's this convenient way to sort of hide behind that form of commun. Whereas like you say, when you're, when you're doing it this way or in some way, you know, face to face or then beyond, you know, out from there, you really have to, you have to listen and, and that's a tough skill for sure. And, and you need to be able to think on your feet, which also requires a certain, you know, it's not intelligence, it's emotional acumen if anything, but it just, and, and I think in doing that it helps you to grow because when you were, when your world is, is from behind some, you know, the safety of a platform like email or text or some other form like that, your, your, the kind of skills that we've adapted over God knows how many years we, we'd care to say as a species to continue to evolve and, and actually still be around.

Right.

At my, Our company is researches and and trains on resiliency. I mean the human species is a very species because we've had to adapt. That's the true nature of it. Right. Darwin wasn't really the, the quote is misquoted frequently. Not the survival of the fittest. It's a survival of, of those that adapted. Those that adapt to change are the ones that survive. So I, I, My, my. I suspect that, that when we lose our capacity to communicate in the way that you just said in a more personal and and intimate way that our capacity to adapt will. Will all. It is also not being positively impacted in that process.

Yeah yeah. You know, the, the one thing I, I'd add to that too is you know, I think about email and, and I can, I can read your message on the, you and you know, there's this notion or it's really important if you, if you're going to really be successful with the other person, you got to care about them, you know, and one of the best ways that you can figure out is somebody struggling through this conversation, are they agreeing with you in this conversation is to be able to see them, read the body language and ask them specifically, hey, it looks like you're uncomfortable. Tell me more about what you're thinking. What, what, what do you disagree with me? On I can't do that through an email unless you specifically say I disagree with you. You know, so, so I think that's an meeting with people and communicating with them. It's so important to be able to see them and react to how they're reacting, not just their words.

I don't. Again, I see this too. I'm not sure if you do as well with millennial age employees, folks in the workforce that are Gen Z or millennials that I've heard talk about sort of a passive aggressive behavior that they see. So that somebody that will only communicate by email or text or that's what they do more often than not. There's sort of one tone that's a very different tone than when that same person, a team member, let's say, is on a zoom meeting or in a, in a, in a teams meeting or something of the sort and that they're all, they're sort of amenable, flexible, approachable. But then the communication that follows by email or text or something is sharp and, and, and abrupt and is different. It's passive aggressive. I, that's the term I've heard those, those folks in, in that demographic use to describe that. So I think they're, they're. Well, people will retreat to that Safer. What seems like a safe space, oddly enough to then be aggressive.

Yeah, it's easy for me to be brave and opinionated, but I don't have to look at you exactly when I have to look at you, I have to respect who you are. I have to think about, hey, if I was on the other side of this table, how would I receive the message I'm getting ready to send, you know, all those kinds of things. And that's why it's like if it's even remotely contentious, you ought to be picking up the phone at a minimum now.

Bartlett and west values training that that's how you and I even got to meet was because you guys valued the, the employee development component. I, I would love to just scratch a little under the surface or go as deep as you want to go in terms of why was so bringing me in to facilitate a workshop that was based on, on some of our research and theories around resiliency and, and also give it, give it to the, to those folks, those senior leaders that, that I had the privilege to, to spend time with, to really use our, a bit of, a bit of process we provided to dig into the resilience of the organization, resiliency of the teams and what people were identifying as things that could could improve or areas for growth or even their own personal commitments to the, To. To. To what it is that they're modeling to others by. By their own habits. For example, I'd like to get your sense because. Because I'm sure you were integral in the decision to have that topic brought to life. Can you, can you shed some light on, you know, what was for that?

Yeah, sure. So it's, that's, that's a long, long conversation unto itself, I think. So. I want to give credit where credit's due. I have very little to do with, with you coming to the table. The, the marketing team and the folks that were on the planning committee did a great job of selecting you. So I want to make sure give credit where credit is due on that. But, but of course, throughout the organization, we are very supportive of our employee owners. We know in the times that we've been through. We've all been through Covid here recently in the pandemic, and we're coming out of that. But in our industry in particular, workload is extremely high. The ability to find people is extremely difficult. Our backlog is pushing four times what it was in July of 2020. So we're coming up on four years and have quadrupled the backlog. So you can imagine the mentality that some people might have around that in terms of, holy cow, this workload's never going to go away. I'm stressed out. I'm feeling burnout. You know, this is the first time that we met in person for this event since early 2020. So we thought, you know, what a better topic, or the team that put it together thought, what a better topic than to talk about resiliency. And I'll be honest with you, we did not think about it in terms of recovery. So we all kind of had the h popped open, and we're like, oh, wow. That's a totally different way to look at what resiliency really means in terms of recovery, and certainly thankful for that. But, yeah, it's, it's. It really has to do with taking care of people. You know, we. We have committed our company to a flexible work environment. So what that means in our space is we hear companies saying, hey, come back to the office. You're going to sit here from 8 to 5, you can leave for a lunch break, but you got to be in the office kind of thing. And then there's. There's a few companies that are being more remote about it, and we've kind of said, hey, you know what? We hire professionals we trust you to do your job. We are trying to help you succeed in this new life that we're all experiencing, quite frankly. And expectations are changing in the work world for sure. And so we're trying to be responsive to that and even be leading in that. So we committed to this flexible work environment, but we also understand that that creates its own stresses. One of the common things you hear at home or people who work from home 100% is, man, I'm having a hard time determining when my work life starts and ends. And it just is kind of ongoing all the time and that creates stress for people. So this topic was just very natural to us to explore some more. And it was great how you presented it to us. And I'll say for me, selfishly, boy, I never use the term recovery with resilience. I always thought resilience was, you're tough, get up off the mat, you know, get. Get punched and get back up again. You know, just that kind of plow through kind of mentality. And I think that's very typical of people, especially in the Midwest. You know, it's, it's pride in how hard you work and the hours you put in and the blood you got is you're wiping off your face at the end of the day. And I never thought about it from a recovery standpoint, but what a powerful message that was and timely, quite frankly, for, for our folks to hear. And yes, I've seen some changes and for the better, so.

Well, you're anticipating my next question, so.

Okay.

Because I, I love to get a sense of. And, and I'm not, I'm not. It may sound self serving. I'm, I'm actually, it's how. I'm happy to hear it from my, from a selfish standpoint, but I'm just really curious what, what sort of, you know, what do you think resonated with people and, and do you see people now kind of given permission to think about it differently? The way you just said, do you see people taking the invitation to think about it differently or, or does it. Or do we get back to that status quo bias that is more prevalent and is prevalent everywhere anyway, because it's kind of how humans are baked. You know, changes, behavioral changes especially can be really, really tough. So.

Yeah, yeah.

What do we see so far just a few months later?

Yeah, you know, I think back to that concept of Mandeville. You know, we teach our people Mandeville, talk to people, ask questions, listen to them, ask follow up questions, but get to the understanding of what they're really trying to tell you. So I feel like our culture was already down the path. You know, I think what this has helped us do is talk about it with different terminology, to think about it in a different way. And you know, so it's certainly given people permission to go, hey, you know what, here's what's really going on. And, and, or I'm dealing with this and I need some time to do X, Y and Z. You know, and I won't say that I feel like everybody has, has come forward and said, hey, here I'm doing these things, you know, let, can I do this? And, and we've always been a very permissive and flexible environment, but I think people have more confidence to say, you know what? I've, I found a spot. I need to spend a little time in recovery, you know, and doing things that help me get there. So I'll say that. And I think we're attempting and we're trying and we keep reminding ourselves to provide ourselves. Time between meetings is a simple thing. But you go, okay, don't start the next meeting right at 4 o'. Clock. As you're coming up to that point in time, give yourself some breathing space and some time to recover a little bit. So I'm seeing more and more of that. But yeah, I see things. I hear people talk about legs up on the wall.

I was gonna ask you about that.

Which, which admittedly I haven't tried yet, but I've done some other things. But, but yeah, so people are trying stuff, which is good.

Yeah. And I think that's, that is really good. I, if I could say the hardest part for folks to, on the implementation side, after they've got it, they understand it, it's not, it's not super, super hard to, to get. And then there's this, you know, sort of level of, of buy in, say, you know, I'm willing to, I'm willing to look at that more carefully and even try some stuff. I think the next hurdle is understanding that these do not have to be long breaks. That often when people hear recovery, they think, okay, so this is, this is like a sabbatical you're talking about, or it's strictly pto, which look, the statistics are pretty clear and they're kind of stark as well, which is that in the United States, on average, an employee leaves 10 days of PTO unused. That's just what it looks like. 10 days of unused PTO sits on the shelf. So there's that for sure.

Don't look at Me, Adam.

I'm not looking at you, brother. Not on that one. It is not an inquisition. So don't have. Feel free to not answer an unasked question.

Right.

The. But these short breaks are research. The research we, we've also got of others, you know, have told us the same thing, which is that this real sort of incremental breaks that are, are, are more consciously established throughout the day can make this massive difference, you know, even five minutes. So you're right. One basic thing is, can become more than just verboten, more than just like hey, don't do this. But actually this is not how we operate around here. That one meeting runs right up against another.

Right, right.

So it, it takes some artfulness to create a meeting that's 40 minutes or 50 minutes long and, and land the plane on time. Like you're, you guys are in a precise space. Like your occupation is about precision.

Well, so it's like we're also about charging our time to projects which get charged to clients and if we have downtime that doesn't get charged to projects, you know, that impacts the business as well. And not a positive way, dollars and cents wise could impact the business very positively if people are fresher, more productive, ready to work when, when it's time to work.

Having come out of the legal profession, I, I understand the billing process so, so well and, and again, lawyers be, you know, not, not terribly different than, than engineers in this respect. The idea of going hey, our, our, our meetings are going to go up to a point where it allows for somebody to have that, that 5 minute break or 10 minute break and you go, you know, not, not dissimilar from a therapist. Those meetings, you know, if you, if you're in therapy, those of hours out, you pay for an hour, you get 50 minutes. You know, you go to a massage therapist, you pay for an hour, you get 50 minutes. You know, they understand that like to go from client to client or patient to patient, you know, by the third patient, you, you'd have no patience.

Yeah, right, right, right.

You'd have no done. You're, you're, you're finished. Right? Yeah. So, so I think it's, it's that and then, then being creative in the what to do. So like obviously the, the way that you construct a meeting becomes its own little micro, micro training how you do meetings differently. Like I, we talked about this. Doing a walk and talk is good for certain things. Meetings where there's, there's some element of it is, can be done standing like a Standing desk or a, you know, standing meeting. Those meetings always go on time or shorter when people are standing for them, you know, et cetera. And then it's that, well, what do you do in between? Because people lean, lean toward the, that multitask. So it's like I'm, I'm done, let's say I am done doing this meeting. The next thing I'm going to do is jump into another, another area that needs my attention. I might just check my emails in between the meetings. Or you know, if you're working from home, it might mean, oh, this is perfect time for me to put up the laundry or it's a great time to prepare, you know, or check in with my kids or whatever it might be. And what we see is that, that's, that's the real issue issue that when the brain doesn't get the break even when it supposedly has break time but doesn't utilize that time for something that actually is restorative, well then it's no different than if he just went meeting right after meeting.

Right, right, right.

And that's the behavioral change that's, that's on the table.

I'll admit something that's very simple and kind of embarrassing and dumb. But my family, I never realized what I was doing at the time. But there, there are times where I would drive and it could be for hours, I mean, two, three hours, and I would have the RA off and I'm just driving in silence. And fortunately, where I live, when, when you're talking about driving, you're not in stop and go traffic, you're able to move. It's very, there's no stress to the drive. And so what, what I realized after seeing you speak was I, I think it, you know, in the back of my head not knowing what I was doing. I was, that was my recovery period. Sometimes to get in my car, I've got a 30 minute drive to where I'm going. I turn off the radio and it's just silence and I'm just kind of letting go of things. And you're decompressing. And I was telling somebody because I, I, you know, I work typically about 30 minutes from my home and people are like, wow, that's, that's a long way to go. I said, you know, it is, but it's, it's also good for me because when I get home I am decompressed and I'm ready to focus on what's in front of me next my family, you know, and be really into that. Whereas sometimes I work in an office that's closer to home about five minutes. And it's not uncommon for me to walk in through the door, still on my phone, thinking about what just happened. I come in talking about what just happened kind of thing. And yeah, and I'm realizing, okay, I'm not separating. I'm not giving myself time to, to essentially let that go. If I can move on and be present in the next space.

It just the developing of a consciousness around it, as you say, the idea that pride in the grind, it's a Midwest thing for sure, but it's no different, honestly, in so many other places where, you know, I call it something different. But, but that, that idea of like, if I'm not, you know, if there's no pain, there's no gain.

Right.

I think that's sort of the, on a, on a, ideological level, that's, that's the impediment because ultimately, if you were an athlete training for an Olympic event or something, you, you would want to work yourself hard, you practice hard, you, you know, you'd work on all the skills, et cetera, but you would never think of starting that, that all important event, whatever it might be, that competition, depleted, hired, you know, distracted. You just, I mean, you certainly wouldn't succeed if that was your approach. So, so it's, it's an interesting thing. It, it is.

Swimming is a great example of that. What, what do you do before the biggest meets of the year? Ah, you, you rest, you taper, you know.

Yeah.

Our daughter was a swimmer as well, so I don't know anything about it, but I remember those periods of time where they would work, work, work, and then there'd be these lulls before the big races and the big meets. It's like. So how's things going? Well, we're, yeah, like, well, resting. The race is coming up. What are you doing? You're going to get out of shape? Like, no, it's very purposeful. Like. Okay, that's good.

Yeah. There was. So I, I swam in college and we called that in high school too. It, it was called taper.

You're right. Right.

This was the taper time. And, and it's interesting because I, I had a guy for good fortune to meet somebody at the YMCA that, that I swim at.

And.

This was just coming out of COVID and this guy was swimming in the lane next to me, only he was swimming about twice as fast as me. So it was literally like experiencing what it would be like to have a dolphin like next to you because I don't swim slowly, but this guy was literally like, just. And. And I, I got out of the water at a certain point because he was just continuing to go. And I was finished. I was toast. I got my workout and I get out and I'm looking at this other man who seemed about to be my age, walking up and down the pool, you know, etc. And. And I said, okay, I gotta. I gotta go talk to him. Obviously, he's the guy's coach. It turns out it's not just his coach, it's his dad and. And the young man in the pool, which, at the time I think I met him, Maybe he was 21, 22, something like that. Michael. His name is Michael. Andrew. On the.

I know Michael.

Oh, you know Michael. Do you know him personally? You just know his. I do.

And his father's Peter.

Yes.

His mother's Tina. Yep, we know them.

Wow.

My daughter and him swam together for. For quite some time. So he's a. He is a phenomenal athlete, though. Wow.

He is a phenomenal athlete. And what was interesting is in a short while, talking to his dad, talking to Peter, I realized we had the exact same philosophy. I had him. He's. We did an interview with him on the podcast. Him and his dad together.

Oh, cool.

Yeah, maybe about two years ago or something. Right before his first Olympic event, Olympics, and where he won, I think he was a gold medalist in the. In the four by the AI amp, you know, the 400 meter IM. So I said to him, I go, I gotta. I gotta just understand a little bit about this training method that you. And. And are you part of the Olympic training apparatus? He says, no. He says, I'm like Persona non grata there. They don't want to talk to me. They're pissed, you know, every. Because he's not training in. In Colorado Springs, you know, doing any of that. His whole methodology was that you. You create recovery while. While the training process is going on. Because the way we used to do it was we would train like dogs. I mean, just like sled dogs for, you know, like, like with the whip, you know, for, I don't know, four months. And that meant doubles, right? Probably what you do, right? Morning practice, afternoon practice, you're swimming like, I don't know, 8 to 10,000 yards a day. And what would happen is, yeah, you, you would. You would get to that place where you'd hit that sort of peak of your. Of your practice, and then they would slowly taper you off when you would swim in the meet and then you would have these great results.

Right? Yep.

And this guy doesn't do that with his son because what we also see is that there's a lot of injury in swimming. Shoulders get blown out, knees get blown out. And, and, and what I saw in college because I started late and these guys were, a lot of them had been swimming since they were five or six years old in like, you know, organized swimming. Right. All that kind of stuff. They were burnt out mentally.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

They were finished. They were like literally toast by that point in time. And so with Michael, his dad doesn't grind him with the yardage or the meterage. You know, like instead he gives him sufficient re. Rest. So. And recovery. So that he's always strong.

Right.

His practices are strong, his meat performances are strong. And he's proof to this day that that process, at least in the swimming arena works.

Right? Yep. Yeah, it's. He's a great story and it's a great family. Really neat people.

They really are. Yeah. And wish him luck is obviously he's going to be swimming in Paris this, this summer.

Right.

Super exciting.

Wow. Yeah. Fun stuff.

Yeah. And. And your daughter, she's still swimming?

No, she's graduated, but she is coaching. She's actually coaching at the University of Virginia. And the guy that's the head coach there, Todd the Sorbo, is very much like Peter Andrew in terms of its quality training over quantity training. And he's going to be the head Olympic coach for the U.S. team this year. He's won four NCAA titles in a row, so he's pretty accomplished.

Cavaliers. Yeah.

Yeah.

That's so good to hear. I, I did not know that. But what's wonderful is that I think what's happening is that people are coming around to this, this new understanding and you know, I'm not sure did. Obviously I, I started out with your group talking about the, my lifeguard experience in that story. I didn't talk about competitive swimming in, in that. Did you connect the dots between the, the recovery, the sort of. Our theory about recovery and resilience. Did you connect it to swimming?

Well, not until after. You know, honestly, what I'm viewing the physical take on swimming or any other kind of athlete, athletic thing as different from what I'm going to call mental recovery. Right, wrong or indifferent. But as you think about it and you start to talk through it, you're like, it's a no brainer. You think about back to your example. If you're swimming thousands of yards a day, you know, it's at some point your practice, your. The way you're practicing, you're sloppier, you're not paying attention to technique and all those things that are really important, especially if you're a sprinter in swimming. And so you start to introduce or develop bad habits because I'm just trying to trudge through all of this and then you think about the mental impact of that and how you feel as you get out of the pool, so to speak. It's really no different at work. Maybe we're taxing ourselves more mentally, but then it kind of wears you out physically. You know, you're not getting the proper amount of rest, you're not sleeping well, because, hey, I got to get up at 4:30 to accomplish this before the workday starts or, you know, I'm not going to bed on time or I'm not eating right because I'm running through from one thing to another, you know. And so it just makes complete sense that those two, whether it's athletic training or it's working, that those paths are very similar, you know, in terms of how it wears on you as an individual, both mentally and physically.

Yeah, it's so, so I want to, I guess I want to get your, your thoughts on this. Now. If, if the idea is, if there's a com. Is there a conflict between the concept as you understand it and meaning the place of recovery for recovery in the, in the creation of longevity and let's say, and capacity or performance and the idea that a business is based on numbers and it's just math on a certain level, you know, it's. Especially if the business creates revenue by a. Hours being applied to a certain project, etc. You know, is there, is there a. Are those two things opposed in some way? And if so I'm putting you squarely in the, you know, under the heat lamp here to say this, but is there, is there a way you can see to reconcile those two things? And if you don't know, obviously, please just say, you know, whatever's true for you.

Yeah, no, I think absolutely it makes sense. You know, I think certainly as business people, we, we typically all are business people at the end of the day, we need to and want to make money for the success of our business. At the same time though, you know, this is one of the things I've always loved about Barlot and West and it's that investment in people piece is, hey, first and foremost I'm concerned about you, Adam, as a person and I want you to be successful at your Job. I want you to be successful in life outside of your work life. You know, the whole person is really important and if the whole person's in a really good spot, not you're going to come here and you're going to do your best work and you may be able to do your best work in six, seven hours and be way better than somebody who's working 12 hour days. And so I, I absolutely see a connection and that's why I love the place that I'm, I've worked at for 30 years is I feel like that connection's always been there to go, hey, you know what? Yeah, we want to work hard, but we're also going to quote, unquote, play hard. And part of play hard might mean the recovery piece, you know, and, and put yourself in a good spot mentally, physically, but make sure you're taking care of the whole person. So for us that connects really well. You know, we talk about bringing your whole self to work and, and how important it is that we want you to be healthy mentally, physically, you know, so that, so you can be the best version of you, quite frankly, and the best version of you is going to do the best work, which in the end is a good outcome for our clients and for our company.

That, that makes sense. I'm thinking just back to my, my day in, in the law and, and the fact that it, at many firms to this day. I mean, in fact I think the majority, if not, you know, not some, some very high percentage of, of them, there's like a quota uniform. Like that's how you show you make your, you know, you justify your salary and, and then beyond that, how, how your bonus might look based on 2200, 2500, 3000, you know, like a lot of hours in a year.

Right.

So that's what I was sort of.

You know, yeah, we, we have that in our space too. I, I, I know that I could go out or we, anybody in our company could go out and probably make more money from a salary and bonus standpoint if you want to. Then you have to evaluate what does that mean to me as the individual. How hard am I willing to drive myself. Yeah, to make an extra 15% or whatever the number is. And you know, you ultimately, you have to make a decision as an individual about what kind of balance do I want. Hey, I'm, I'm a competitive person. I love to win, but I also love that I can see people be happy, you know, and, and if I feel like all you're doing is working from sun up to sundown and you're spending six hours in bed. Maybe you're, you're not gonna be happy. It's not gonna be fun for you and you're not gonna do your best work and, and you know what? We. We have people that quit occasionally and they'll come to me and we'll talk about it. I say, you know what? I want you to be happy at Barlon west, but if you can't be happy here, I want you to go find somewhere you can be happy. Because at the end of the day, what's most important, most important to me is that you're a happy and healthy individual again. I hope it's here, but if it's not, go find your spot where you really fit.

Joe, I. You're. You guys are. I don't want to say you're atypical. I mean, I, I think in my experience, you're atypical. So to whatever extent, because the only.

Lens I know, fortunately.

Yeah. And that's. And like you said, it's the place you began. So how beautiful it is that you didn't have to first get, you know, get into the meat grinder and, and then have to figure out, well, this doesn't work for the kind of life I want to lead. I had to get out. I got. Chose to get out of the legal profession in, in part because I, I felt like it. It was amazed. I couldn't figure my way out of. And at the time I. I couldn't have because it just. That was the level of my consciousness. I think knowing what I know today, I would have been able to apply perhaps that then and done it differently, but I just didn't. I just wasn't resourceful, forced at the time. But at least what. What I have going, you know, had going then was an awareness that that was not sustainable. I think I meet a lot of people that don't recognize their limitations. In many ways they put themselves, you know, it's kind of a. I'm being selfless, but it's really, you know, again, things that you just. Life will teach you stuff. My father in law was. Was a worker bee and you know, he's not around anymore. I missed, literally miss him every day and, and he didn't take care of himself. And he used to think that because he put everything, family and all those responsibilities before himself that that was the equivalent of being selfless. And I said to him back then, I said, no, dad, this is. I think it is selfish actually for you to not Take care of yourself because, you know, and then, sure enough, you know what it was, he just left. He just left before he needed to. And we're all. The loss was ours because he wasn't around.

So.

Yeah. I so appreciate how committed your organization and you are, Joe, to, To. To that people priority thing, because a lot, again, you hear people use those terms, people first, and, and then I work in those organizations, whether it's on that side of just doing a keynote or we do. We do consulting work with them, some of them. And what I'll see is that people, you know, like, you dig down deeper, you look more closely, and people don't come first.

Right.

Bottom line comes first. And then if it's a happy coincidence that people are also happy, then so being it. But that's, but that's different.

Right? So.

Yeah. Well, listen, I have so been looking forward to the conversation. I knew why it would be the case and, and it was just everything I. I would have wanted. Joe, thank you so much for making the time. I want to ask you too, is there one thing that you are. That you are yourself changing now or looking at. At changing, you know, when it comes to your own resiliency?

Well, I'll tell you two, one, I'm no longer embarrassed to tell my, my family that I rode home without the radio on. So I feel good about that. But. But I am being more purposeful about waking up in the morning and put my feet on the floor and kind of gathering my thoughts. And then I go drink 20 ounces of water.

Good man.

I'm not a coffee guy anyway, but I, I purposely go out and say, okay, I'm gonna have my 20 ounces right now. So. But no, there's. And I'm. I'm trying to, you know, some of the breathing stuff and, and you know, pausing and kind of mentally gathering where. Where am I right now? You know, trying to end meetings 5, 10 minutes early so. So we can have some space. You know, all of those things are still on my mind and haven't left. Which I will say for, for you is unique because by now, this far away, you know, it's been a month or whatever. It's been maybe six weeks, generally speaking. I've probably said, yeah, I tried. I've forgotten some of the stuff I picked up from that conversation. I haven't done that in this case, and I'm enjoying it. So appreciate you having me. It's a lot of fun.

I appreciate you, sir. I appreciate the fact that this, that these folks are, are Being led by somebody like that.

We're a team. We're a team.

Yeah.

Way cool.

I love that conversation with Joe. He is such a quality, quality person. And probably you're sitting there if you're, if you're being led by somebody right now, meaning you're not in the top spot, you probably might be thinking, God, I, I, I would love to work for a guy like Joe Caldwell. That's the kind of leader I think we all enjoy, enjoy being led by. And if you are in fact in that top spot or are leading other, other people in any role, role whatsoever, I think you can, you can take Joe's model as one that, that is, it's possible for all of us to be thinking, truly thinking about people being our priority, not just in, in, in words, not just as, as part of our, our off sites or the times of the year when we're focused on our values, but, but each and every day. I think that's what Joe exudes and, and frankly he gives the credit to Bartlett and West itself as an organization, as a culture. A group of folks that started this long before he got their organization has now been around for 75 years or soon to celebrate its 75th anniversary in the engineering space. And the culture has continued to evolve, to use Joe's words. But when he got there, they were focused on taking care of their people. And to this day that has, has remained a priority and perhaps even an increased focus on that given the fact that our world is as stressed out in many ways and people are feeling greater levels of anxiety and, and the signs of their depletion are showing as burnout is on the rise and, and we all know that this is real. Nobody's, nobody's, you know, this is not a sky is falling. Nobody's, nobody's making this up. This is the actual state of affairs across many demographics, of course, but we're seeing it in the Gen Z and millennial groups even at higher rates than with some other people. And so having that conversation today with Joe, really focusing on what that looks like, how do you deploy that, how do you implement in a world where results are the first and last focus and priority? Business runs on results, business runs on numbers. We get that, Joe gets that, certainly. And yet, yet to integrate these two things and not see them as mutually exclusive, how do you take care of your workplace well being and really focus your culture on, on people at the same time that you drive results for the bottom line, this is the masterwork, this is the part that requires if you're if you're not expert at this and most leaders that I've met are not actually expert at that, then this is an area where you you want to to show your your willingness to learn, your humility, your vulnerability even in bringing in people or resources that can assist you in bringing those two things together. Reconciling these two things that seem to be at odds and not simply having pride in the grind which which I think many of us were raised to to believe that this is the only realistic way to to ensure that you will you will meet the demands that and that you'll also be resilient. That's an archaic way to look at it today based on our research, it's clear that paradigm is not sustainable and that is not going to be this is the paradigm that will lead us forward. So we got to unpack a lot of that and even discover that we had some things in common that we didn't even realize out of my history as a competitive swimmer. And Joe's daughter was also is very a highly accredited swimmer in her own right and now a coach and working with the person who's going to lead and and head up the Olympic Olympics for swimming. And and a different philosophy a philosophy that is based in the in the research that we have have been creating ourselves in the research that we've relied upon ourselves as well. This idea that resilience is baked out of recovery rituals mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritual even rituals for our recovery and not about how it is that we are able grind it out better or grit grit better than others. So love the conversation. Again, Joe is such a solid guy. I learned a lot. I hope you did as well. And if if this is something you you think would benefit others, whether there are people that you are leading people that that you are being led by colleagues, friends, family, etc, please share this episode with those that you think again would enjoy it. That is always helpful to us to see the this community expand. Also, if you wouldn't mind taking that 30 seconds perhaps that it takes to provide a rating of the show on your on the platform that you consume this podcast. So five stars is always great. But whatever whatever the rating is that you would take the time to provide is valuable feedback for us and we value you in so many ways and for your time. We thank you for that. And I'll say lastly, if you're checking in on yourself, just wanting to find out how resilient you are in this very moment, rankmyresilience.com is our way for you to do that. It is a huge data set now of information we've collected over many years. Almost 8, 000 resilient leader assessments conducted so far. This is a free tool for you. Rankmyresilience.com for yourself. Three minutes later you're gonna you're gonna get a score in those four important realms of resilience as well as some resources that may help you to create the kind of rituals that Joe and I were talking about today. So again, once, once again I want to say thank you so much and have a beautiful rest of your day evening wherever you are. Ciao for now.

Thanks for listening. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build resilience and become change proof. Remember to leave a review on Apple Podcasts and you may be featured in an upcoming episode. For more resilience tips and strategies including support for building change proof teams, visit AdamMarkel.com to get your own free resilience assessment go to rankmyresilience.com.