People And Business Are One And The Same With Mike Fromm

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day, we face change, stress, and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Barkel and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change.

Proof. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Change Proof podcast. I'm your host, Adam Markell. Today I have a great guest, as always, but. But this gentleman I really, really vibed with recently, meeting him when I was doing a keynote for his organization, Shaw Industries, one of the largest flooring manufacturing companies in the world. I just. I just love the way this guy leads. And I invited him to be on the show and I'm gonna. I'm gonna read not so much his bio, but how he sees himself. And I'm going to read this word for word. It's going to be an amazing conversation. I already can tell that. I know you guys are going to love it. So here we go. This is from Mike himself. I started my career at Shaw as a supervisor in manufacturing. That experience shaped my understanding of the business and was an important foundation for my career in hr. During my tenure with Shaw, I have been a strategic HR partner at various levels of the organization for many different functions. I've also led talent acquisition, talent management, and in my current role, I am focused on enabling the success of our incredible HR team, creating a culture where associates can bring their whole selves to work and leveraging the power of our people to live out the Shaw way. I believe that Shaw Associates are our valued creators or value creators and a catalyst for our success as an organization. That's why it is so important to create an associate experience where every associate finds meaning in their work because they feel included, empowered, accountable, authentic, and supported. As an HR organization, it is our top priority to bring out the best in our people so they can drive the best results for our customers and the business. Our people and our business are not separate. They are one and the same. When our people thrive, our business thrives. I absolutely love this philosophy. That's why I wanted this guy on the show. You're going to so enjoy this conversation with Mike Fromm, the chro at Shaw Industries. Sit back and enjoy. All right, Mike. So, you know, it's a funny thing to hear somebody else or read, read about. You read, say, say stuff about your. Your work history, your life history, your. You know, sometimes you're called your resume or your CV and. And it's. It's just kind of a strange feeling. At least I feel that way when I'm. When I listen to that stuff, you know, because it's, it's. It's such a, you know, a small, A small part of who we really are. I mean, they're important things, of course. Right. But what's one thing that is not in your, in your bio that you would love for our community, our listeners to know about you at the outset? Just one, one thing that's not in.

There, I think in the, you know, in the bio, it really talks about my heart for people and the importance of people to business and touches on those things. But one key thing I think that I would add is it's not just about people in the individual sense, but how people come together as a team and a group of people and how they collaborate and work together to share their strengths and opportunities to really help the community to thrive. So I think that would be something. Is the importance of teams and the importance of working together on a. With a common purpose so that you deliver high value.

Yes. I'm, I'm struck by something that you and I, we began our conversation, of course, before we hit the record button, that it's always fun when that. That goes on. I'm going, oh, no, we got. Stop right there. We will come back to this. We got to, we got to get into the show, hit, you know, get it recording, and then we'll get back to that. So my first question for you is really, are our leaders dealers in hope? I, I've heard that recently that leaders are dealers in hope. And I thought, you know, this is a good, this is a good opening question for, for you just having, you know, knowing a little bit about how you lead. What do you think of that statement, Mike?

I think leaders want to be dealers of hope. I think they're. Too often we focus on the task in front the transactional things that we're required to do when we lose sight the person, you know, maintain, you know, building that relationship. And so I think, you know, all leaders care deeply about people, in my opinion. I mean, obviously there's some percentage that doesn't, but the majority of leaders truly do want to help others and want to give that sense of possibility and, you know, unleash that greatness. But they get distracted with the task at hand, the transactions that must occur in order to do things, and they lose sight that the real true value comes from the people.

Yeah.

And how do they stay connected to them and really understand what their ambition and aspirations are? And how do they then unleash that so that they reach their full potential and we get the value creation that all people bring.

I mean, leaders have to make decisions. They're, they're often making the most difficult decisions. We're going to talk about some of that in a minute too. And, and yet there's, there's an element of being a leader that is, that's, that's around having a mindset that's, that is, that can see opportunity, that can see a path forward, can see the way forward, if you will, when others are, are, let's say at a, not junior in age necessarily, but let's say junior in perspective. Junior and maybe experience that leads to perspective that allows for somebody to recognize that, to dig in, to try to grit their way through something or to resist even actively be in resistance to change because the change is uncertain and the changes is frankly, scary. Even, you know, that, that, that greater wisdom that comes with leadership hopefully means that you, that you can see that there's positivity, that change is always net positive. I like to say, and, and that you could call that, you know, hopeful, but I think it's even more pragmatic than, than simply being hopeful. Would you agree with that?

Yeah, I would definitely agree. And I think, you know, again, leaders have to recognize that regardless of their efforts, change is going to happen. Things are going to move and shift and, and new things are going to be introduced that then you've got to figure out, well, how do I respond and adapt in the appropriate way to, to achieve a different outcome. If you want something different, you got to do something different. And, and you can't just hope and bury your head that things are going to stay the same. And, and I think all leaders or the best leaders are constantly, you know, really trying to anticipate what's next. And even in the good times, they're recognizing that things will not stay the same. There will be a valley. And they've got to then try to figure out what does that mean and how will I continue to, you know, to, to move and, and progress in the right way so that we get to the right outcomes that we're after. So I think it just takes, you know, us being more open to those things and really hearing, you know, a lot of different inputs, being more empathetic, to really observe and collect insights from various sources and then decide, okay, what do we do from there?

Right. Well, again, relative to just your, your own history, you're, you know, you're, you're near the top of the the food chain, so to speak. You're in the C suite as a chro. And, and that, I'm sure, you know, didn't happen overnight for you. I, I imagine there's been a lot of backing and filling in your own career and things. It. Maybe it's a good thing to level set with, with our folks to just understand a little bit about how you've dealt with change. Maybe pick one, one. One time in your life a story was. Could be professional, career related, it could be personal, where, where you had to kind of manufacture your own net positive attitude about change or something along those lines. I wrote a book some years ago called Pivot, and that. That was about my sort of inflection point in my career about realizing a pivot was required in that. Yeah, I could either wait for the pivot to, to come to me, or I could sort of take it, Take. Take a more proactive approach to it. And actually, as it turns out, it was, it was both for me. But, but I want to, I want to find out what, What's. What's a moment in time in your life, recent or deep in the past, that you could share with our folks.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great question, Adam. There's always moments of, you know, where you have to pivot and reflect and understand, you know, what does this mean and where do I want to go and then how do I adapt to get there. I think one that stands out is about 10, 12 years ago, I was leading our biggest division from an HR perspective and made a decision that most people in the organization didn't see it as a positive move. I took more of a lateral move to go into our leadership development area and, and, and recognize. And the reason for that move was I believe that we had all this talent and that the world was changing so fast. I mean, we all hear the term VUCA and we all recognize that the world is volatile, uncertain, complex, and, you know, and those things. And so, you know, we needed to shift, but we've got all this power because the people within the organization. But were we fully leveraging that or understanding how that needed to, to be used in a, in a more proactive and, and strategic and objective way to produce a different outcome. And so the decision to, to move there, I had most of my HR brethren that told me that was probably a bad move, telling me that I was pulling myself out of the swim lane. And, you know, I, you know, took a leap of faith that I recognized that this was going to grow me, stretch Me and something that, that was different. I'm not a person that is really, you know, believes in training per se. I believe in development. I believe in learning for sure, but not training in the sense that most companies operate. And so going into that role and, and challenging our leadership to really think differently, that the business and the world was moving in a different way and in a different direction. And we had to, you know, really address the opportunity that was in front of us to, to really leverage our talent differently and recognize that when you empower people and you open the, you know, the doors for the, you know, for your people to be their best and bring their wholesales work, that you realize that there's endless possibilities. And so that was a pivotal moment in my career because that opened me up to work directly with our C suite, you know, and really challenge their paradigms, question some of the things that we did organizationally and, and where we were trying to go, you know, really challenged them on, you know, starting with the end of mind and that.

I see you smirk. I, you know, not everybody who's listening to this is also going to see it on YouTube. Some people watch it on YouTube, but I could see there's a little, just a little bit of a smile.

It was, yeah, I mean, it was just you really had to, you know, have the courage to the challenge paradigms and, and you know, try to get people to look at it things differently than the way we, you know, we had. And it was, it really didn't set the path forward for me to be, to be awarded this position. I'm very blessed to be, you know, in the role that I'm in and grateful that I have the opportunity to work with so many great, wonderful people at, at Shaw and couldn't be more thankful.

So at least what I'm reading between the lines and when I saw your grin there, I thought to myself, well, there's challenging the status quo or the way things are done around here. There's any number of ways you, you, you use the word paradigm to describe, I think a similar, a similar thing.

Right.

You know, has its risks. Let's, let's be sure, let's be certain to say that. Right? Not, not everybody, not every leadership team, not everybody in a, in, in a, in, in a, in a senior role wants to be challenged. I mean, isn't that the truth too?

Absolutely. And especially when you, I mean, we're a company, you know, with great people who've worked together for a long, long time and we had a lot of tenure and a Lot of institutional habits and, and deep relationships. And so when you start trying to get people to consider things differently, you know, going back to your earlier comment about change, it causes people to, to get out of their comfort zone and, and, you know, automatically resistance, you know, gets formed. And so not everyone is going to be excited about, you know, or understand why we need to move. And, and I think that was kind of the, the story now. You know, fortunately we had, you know, you know, our CEO and our leadership team were very open to the different things and, and we, we kind of went through and really defined the Shaw way, which is something that we kind of, you know, is our operating model to, you know, really understand how we approach business and, and recognize that people are really the value creators for, for what we get.

And, and I guess there are, there are a number of ways to describe what the, the sequence or the, the, the word to describe overall what, what permits you to do what you did. I mean, I could, we could say you were courageous. Okay, that's, that's fine. That's probably accurate on some level too. But in terms of the environment, how do we describe an environment that invites that type of, of healthy conflict, as I think Patrick Lencioni once once talked about, wrote about this, this sort of healthy environment to challenge the status quo. I would use the word psychological safety. That's a word that, that I think is, is appropriate there in terms of just, you know, you know, what is the sequence, what's the first domino that allows for that kind of, that kind of transformation really to occur? Would you agree with that, that it, that the order might be that, that there was a, a safe environment for you to feel, you know, not like you were really alone on the hill when, when you challenge the status quo there? Is that accurate?

I'm not sure that everyone would feel that way. And, and I'm not. I always felt it was safe. I never really considered that my point of view was not going to be wanted or accepted. So. But I do think a lot of people within the company, you know, and many companies aren't sure if their opinion is wanted and valued. And I think that's the first thing you have to recognize is that if you care deeply about your organization being successful, about the people around you, because obviously their livelihood and their future is dependent on the organization being healthy and successful, then you're willing to talk about those things that you believe in. And so, you know, our current CEO used to tell me that, you know, I would come into certain meetings and, you know, kind of be the, you know, the, the only person you know, in the room and you know, that thought one way and that's, you know, obviously that can be a scary place. But you realize that you, I mean, I didn't come in there with just my personal view. I came in with the organization's view because I listened to our people, I listened to the market, I understood what was some of the trends and tried to shape things from that perspective. But, you know, for an organization that has really operated a certain way for a long time, I think a lot of people would have said it wasn't as safe. I never felt that. And I think that's what most of us as, as leaders have to recognize is that if we care, we must do what we believe is right, regardless of what the outcome might be. And I think that kind of led to me to, you know, feel more comfortable in those settings. And our CEO at the time was outstanding. And you know, I never, I mean, he was so respectful every time we had a conversation, regardless whether he agreed or disagreed. So it was very comfortable. But I'm not sure that most people in the organization felt that it was that safe always. We do work on that tremendously now.

Yes, it's, it's not about being contrarian for the sake of being. And I think that's, That's a important. I, I feel like that's an important point to bring up because to try to make a. A name for yourself doesn't mean that you, you're just always kind of swimming, swimming against the current. Sometimes it's a lot. A wiser decision from, from a lot of standpoints, including energy, managing resources and things like that, to not try to swim against the current. But, but what, what also struck me is that how often it is that, that especially people who are, are. Well, I won't even categorize it. I think we make up stories just like this is what we do as human beings. We make up our own narrative about things. We're constant. We're kind of meaning making machines on some level. And, and maybe often people assign a certain. That they assume that it's would be dangerous, more dangerous than it really is to simply put their hand up and say, you know, respectfully speaking. I, I don't, I don't agree with that. I don't know that my, you know, that, that my, my, my own intuition feels that that's the right. That this is, you know, correct or that there are other ways to do things. And in feedback terms, you know, we like to often when we're working with organizations, one of the things we find that sort of underpins this idea of psychological safety has to do with whether people can give and receive feedback in a healthy way. So we have a system for doing it. It's a bit canned on some level, but after a while it doesn't feel that way. It just feels natural to say, well, this is what works for me. We always start with what works for me. You know, it's personal. So it's not a judgment, it's not what works. Because who knows? We don't know what, you know, just. But for me, from my perspective, this what works for me, this is what doesn't work for me. And this is what could be done differently. That's the sort of the order of those statements and the last one being not this is what could be done better. Because again, you and I talked about that before we hit the record button. You know, our judgments play into so many things and who's. Who has the audacity, you know, literally the arrogance even to say that they know for sure that something will work better. We don't know if somebody's had work differently, better even until. Till we have the hindsight to be able to assess that. But to propose to do something differently, I think that's valuable in a learning organization. Anything strike you there as being, you know, like.

I think you said a couple things that I think are really key and that the humility. I mean, I think people, you know, need to recognize they don't have it all and they don't have all the answers. And that again, going back to my earlier comment about it's a team, business is a team sport, and it takes all of us working together to help support each other and drive to a common cause, you know, a shared purpose and belief. So I think that is a key element to this whole thing is how do we make sure that we humble ourselves and recognize that we don't know. We make decisions and hopefully our decision is better than our expectation, you know, but we, again, even in hindsight, we don't know if it's the best decision, because we don't. We didn't take another decision. We just know that it meet my expectations or fall short of my expectations. And what you always want to do is reflect on those things and try to learn. If you had more information or different information, what would. What would you have done differently? And how do you grow from those experiences? So that would be one thing. The second point that I think you made, that is really Key for us is that we're always learning. We're a learning organization. We believe in being a learning organization. And the way you learn is from, you know, really listening and hearing each other's perspective because each of us comes from a unique place with the unique skills and perspectives and experiences. And the more we can understand each other's beliefs and, and you know, from their vantage point what they think and can consider those things, the more we can grow and make decisions that we have more confidence. There is no solution. There's just a bunch of trade offs and being able to debate what is it that we believe so that then we can really reflect on the trade offs and decide, okay, based on those things, here's where we're going to go, here's the decision. I think that's how organizations that are healthiest outperform those that are not. And so I think that's key. One other point I would say is on the psychological safety and that feeling that, you know, that you assume that someone doesn't want to hear your perspective. I think that does hold back many people. They, you know, the stories that we tell ourselves, the history. And what I would encourage anyone to, to do is never look back. I mean, that's why performance reviews and management sometimes gets, you know, a bad name is because it's backwards. It's, it's past focus versus future focus. And what I always try to say is forget what the past, I mean, learn from it, but recognize you're trying to move forward. And everything is about how do we get to a different place? Start with the end in mind, as Covey says, and really, you know, figure out, well, how do we then get to this new place that we're all trying to get to because we believe it'll be better.

Yes, I think that new place, you know, in looking at just how, how labor trends have, have been over the last several years and how tight the labor market still is, that people want to know that their opinion is valued. They want, they want, they think it's important. It's very high up the list, you know, maybe even higher than compensation, frankly, that the, that the, the place they find themselves in, you know, so many hours of the day is a place that values their opinions, wants their opinions. So I think when you said that, said that that really dropped in for me. I want to come back to something you said earlier about training and development. Is there a distinction there that you make between those two concepts? Training and development?

Yeah, I mean, I think, and I appreciate you going back to that, because I don't want people to think I don't value that process. I think when you train, you train to a norm so you have a standard and each, you know, I think that's the, the from an educational perspective, I think that's, you know, teachers have to figure out where each student is and the same thing. In the business world, each of us comes at a different, you know, level of understanding and trying to get people to recognize where they're at and to grow from that point is what I think you miss when you train, you train the class to the norm versus trying to get each person to really understand where they're at and how do they grow from the information that's being shared so that they are more impactful. And I think that's the difference that I would say, you know, the other point I would make is again, classroom is fine, you know, but if it's always instruction versus you know, making it immersive and interactive. The learning, in my opinion is when people start to share their different perspectives around a topic versus just being told about the topic, the content, giving context and understanding why people did do the things they do give, you know, going back to your judgment gives you better understanding of why people chose the different things they chose and it gives you better judgment in the future. Yes, I don't know if that helps.

No, that's very helpful. Um, let's talk about the current market conditions that we're in. I think it's would be very helpful for people that are listening this and many of the folks who are listening to this are, are either in, in senior level areas themselves, leading others. Many operators and entrepreneurs also are listening in too. We're, we're in a, in a transition period in the marketplace. You know, the pandemic was, was massive disruption and the ripple effect of that, of that, of those lockdowns. We're still feeling, we're feeling it in education, feeling it in, in, in, in the medical and health space. And we're feeling it across the board and certainly in, in your, in your area as well. What, what is it about a time of transition that doesn't change? Because look, whether we, you know, whether, whether we. Yeah, regardless, I mean agnostic to the, to the kinds of things that we're going to see in front of us. There'll be changes, there'll be pivots, there'll be changes to the, to the structures of organizations that we're already seeing that, that there's a lot of, you know, organizational change happening. Right. Sizing and whatnot, and there'll be more of those things. But what's the common denominator? You, you've lived through a number of cycles. I'm not dating you. I'm not going to date myself. But let's say we, we've seen the, the roller coaster of these events before. Is there a, is there a common denominator in, in all of those, those sort of pivot points that would, that you'd want to speak to as part of the wisdom in guiding us or in, in, as you said, being future focused now?

Yeah, I think, Adam, I think that's a great question and a great, you know, point to reflect on. I mean, there are. Change is going to happen and you're going to go through different business cycles and different market cycles. And what I would offer is don't take, you know, don't take it too seriously. I mean, it there, it's challenging, it's hard. There's always going to be moments of adversity. But, you know, take those moments as an opportunity to learn and grow. Life is going to, is always, you know, going to be up and down. I mean, you never stay on the mountaintop and you don't always stay in the valley. And so how do you, you know, manage those, those cycles in a way that keeps you grounded in reality but also optimistic about the possibilities of what the future holds? And, and I think that's a key element is, you know, take every opportunity as a learning opportunity. It's never an opportunity to, you know, as, as failure. I don't, you know, I know, you know, we all talk about, you know, failure is a. Failure is just a learning opportunity in my book. And when you go through cycles, it's an opportunity to reflect and learn and then to connect with each other, to figure out how do we move forward together because we believe in something bigger. Those four things probably help you to navigate. I know you and I have talked in the past around the topic of resilience. To me, the thing about resilience is, is, you know, when you, when you have a support group, when you have people that care about you and, and love you and have your back, you can get through anything. You know, if you're trying to navigate the hard times by yourself, it's generally when you don't see hope and you. Or you don't have hope and you don't see a future. You know, but the resilience comes from, you know, when people are there for you, with you, because they believe in you, they see a Common cause. They're trying to grow and learn through the process and go from there.

Yeah, you just took that. We were, we were sharing a little, little brain melt going on there. I was going to ask you how you support your folks in times like this to ensure that. And I'm wearing a shirt that says, have, you know, got your back today. So, so you really played into that was so beautiful, Mike. So I'm going to ask the question anyway, though. How do you support your folks when, you know, the wind isn't necessarily at our back? And this is a moment in time when I think we are facing headwinds in a variety of different places.

I mean, I think you got to find success stories and moments where you see the winds and you shape those stories and share those stories in a way that inspires and encourages people. I think the biggest thing is being present with your people, making sure they feel that you're there for them. You're. You're hearing them and understanding what they feel and believe, and you're being honest with them. You know, we believe in transparency. Transparency builds trust. And that doesn't mean you, you tell every little, you know, just give. Content you. It's really about giving context of what the situation is. Unfortunately, you don't control what they take from some of those things, but you try to give confidence to people that you're there with them to help them navigate the tough times. And that we're going to, you know, offer support and that we are here as individuals and as teammates, but we also have external resources that are here to, to offer additional support. And so we talk about, you know, giving, you know, showing the kindness in the heart with our people and then, and then offering the love and support as whatever their, whatever their story is that they might need, because we care deeply about them.

Yes, well, I, I've found my first domino. It took a minute, but here's, here's my sequence. You could, you could pull it apart, change any way you want, but it feels like to me, the first domino in, in that environment where, where someone could feel empowered to challenge the status quo and ultimately create an opportunity for transformation. And I'm going to say like you did, and, you know, again, we could say there's courage there. For sure there is. But if the first domino is transparency, that leads to trust and trust creates that psychological safety, in fact, those two things are fairly synonymous anyway, that creates this opportunity for, for a, an empowered workforce that can challenge the status quo. So transparency leading to trust, leading to psychological safety, to have Empowerment, true empowerment to do all the things that, that are, are sometimes difficult to do. Just to, you know, be the lone, the lone person in the room to go. Yeah, hold on. Can we just put, can we just tap the break for a second here? We just put push pause on, on doing it the same way we've always done it, etc. Do you, do you, does that make sense to you? Do you buy that?

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, what I think the first thing is you got to connect. You got to, you know, be present, as I said earlier, and connect and then that, you know, you know, when you connect, then relationships start to be formed and trust is built and then you can be transparent about anything when you have those things. And then, you know, we say, you know, when you start to share openly and transparently and frequently, you know, truth to power, basically, then you can co design and get to whatever you believe is best as teammates, not as individuals. Because the power is in the co design.

It is, isn't it? That's the, that mean, that's the power of the team. It's not trying to be the smartest in the room all the time, not trying to have all the answers, not trying to, you know, not having the pressure.

That's right.

I remember being at your event just recently and telling that story from the, from the, about the lifeguard stand, you know, being up there and, and how on this particular day when I was just 19 years old, we had it. We had an accident at the beach. We lost somebody and didn't find him. It was, it was brutal. It was just one of those things. You just can't even imagine how, how a sunny day can get turned just completely upside down. And, and we had to continue to move forward. We, in the midst of that total chaos and that loss, we were required to get back up in a lifeguard stand as if nothing had happened and, and be future focused. But after that, in, in. In thinking about it and talking about it, in relieving ourselves emotionally of the, of the, of the, the, the weight of it, we made changes. We had to make changes. And part of those changes involved how we supported one another so that we weren't ever up there depleted and, and not able to do our, our best in the moment, but rather how we came together as a team just to back each other up, to have each other's, to have each other's backs. And then ultimately the, the good, the good part of that story is for seven additional summers that, that I was fortunate to be at that beach, we Never. We never lost anybody again. It was, and it was a rough environment. It was life and death kind of a lot of the time. So it was. I, I so appreciate you bringing that, bringing that full circle for me, Mike.

No, that's good. I wanted to say one thing on that, Adam. I think again, that exhaustion and, and it's, you know, I don't know if this is additive and maybe it's not accurate, but I always, you know, I reflect on this a lot. You know, when we're growing up, we're just trying to fit in. A lot of times we're trying to figure out what's our place and where we need to be and those kinds of things. I think one of the things that happens when you get to the business world, you're trying to stand out and you know, too often when we're trying to stand out, we're putting others down in order to make sure that we're seen. And the reality is going back to your, you know, that terrible situation, that tragic situation is if you're by yourself, you end up, you know, spinning and working so hard and depleting yourself and you, you, you exhaust yourself and mentally it just never stops where if you can rely on others and help you and realize you will get your due, if, when it's due, I mean, you know, trust that the organization or the people around you are seeing your value and that there, it's not just, you know, the good old boy thing or whatever it might be and that it is really, you know, us all coming together and helping each other. Because if you don't, you know, if you're always trying to be the one that, you know, gets the limelight, you're gonna, you're gonna be exhausted and you're gonna really damage a lot of relationships when in the react, at the end of the day, it's all about how do we come together and, and work together as a, as a team. The best teams are when they work together, not when they work as individuals.

Yeah, it, the word you used earlier, humility comes up for me there and, and, and patience and I think right now with, with some younger parts of the workforce. And again, I don't mean this, you know, because I believe in emotional intelligence and, and, and maturity is not necessarily an age thing. I know plenty of 50 year olds who are complete idiots and are just still 5 year olds, honestly mentality wise. And there are plenty 25 year olds that are incredibly mature, well, you know, wise beyond their years kind of thing. So I don't Want to, I want to turn it into a conversation about, about an age demographic or anything, but, but there's just something about patience that, that is really important. So for leaders right now that are feeling perhaps, you know, that level of, you know, of, of wanting to make something happen for themselves in their careers or speed up the process, I think it's important to hear, to heed what you just said. I know at the beach, for us, we learned pretty quickly you can't go it alone. And, and if you're going to be on a team, if you're going to play on a team, you got to recognize the power of the team is in, is in that when you're down, somebody picks you up. When somebody's down, you pick them up. I mean, we're not all going to be at our gold medal best every single moment of every single day. So you gotta, you gotta have some humility, be willing to allow that, allow that in yourself, allow that in others. Make a safe place for that to exist and have patience. And if you can do that, I think as you said, people are going to recognize that, that you've got something that's valuable and it'll be rewarded. At least that's, that's, that's my belief. As, as well.

I agree 100%.

The last thing I want to, I want to get to here because I so love this conversation, but I want to ask about people and business because at a certain point in a conversation that you and I had, you said to me, and I wrote it down, that people and business are one and the same. That's a direct quote from you, that's a couple months ago. And, and I want to understand that better. I want people to. I mean, I have my own feeling about it because, because I know you a little bit now, but I want people to get what that is and why. How is that a different paradigm, do you think, than maybe the one that that is more prevalent, let's say?

Yeah, I think that most people want to segment or segment or compartmentalize their activities and the things that they have to do. And as leaders, we want to think about business and what we have to do get done. And then we want to think about the people and what I try to get leaders to understand that business only happens through people. You don't have business without interactions with people. And that the value that comes for business is when people come together and, and produce outcomes that they believe is best for the organization when they deliver things. And so how do they bring those skills and qualities and experiences together and partner and collaborate so that they can be more innovative to produce business solutions that are, you know, individually we might not think about because we bring, you know, that. And so how do we create that, you know, that understanding that nothing happened, the numbers don't happen without someone doing something. And so the people, if you start to realize that the people are the power, then you're going to be a more effective leader. I use an example years ago, and, and if you have a business challenge, you have a leadership opportunity. If you have a leadership challenge, you have a business opportunity. They're hand in hand. They don't go without the other. If you have a business challenge, I promise you there is a leadership behavior challenge or opportunity within, you know, that situation and vice versa. If you have a leader that's struggling and not demonstrating the right behaviors and the right skill, you know, skills and those kinds of things, then they're going to, there is going to be a business challenge. And so that's how I tie it together and try to get leaders not to, you know, to compartmentalize. Well, I got to put my business hat on today or I got to put my people hat on. I got to put my strategy hat on. Those things are all interrelated and, you know, and, and fully interdependent on each other. And so the more we can understand that, the better we, we can work as a, as a team.

So as we wrap this up, Mike, I want to ask you how, how do you take care of yourself? What's the best method that you've got? Because you brought it up a couple of times. I so appreciate you talking about resilience. I mean, that is the, the through line of the work that I do as a keynote speaker, but also our company work. Well, we're constantly helping to create and craft work cultures of well being and, and the, the essence of that is really a more resilient workforce. People that mentally, emotionally, physically, even spiritually are, are stronger, are better able to, to weather the, the waves of change that are the only constant, I suppose that we, we can really count on. So your resilience, you've been resilient. What does that look like for you on a, on a daily basis?

I think going back, I mean, I probably don't have great balance always, but I think I've always thought I did probably reflect more on that today than ever before after hearing your, your message to us. But I have a great sports system. You know, my family is, is really, you know, something that I value and enjoy Spending quality time with. We do a lot of things together. My faith is a big part of, you know, being able to, you know, spiritually and mentally, you know, recover because you recognize there's, you know, there's a higher purpose and, you know, certain things. And then the last thing just, you know, physically and mentally is just recognizing I have to have mic time. I realized that, you know, my personality is one that's. If someone's got, you know, if there's an opportunity, then I want to try to solve that or help them solve that and, you know, lean in. But, you know, that I have to have time to. To just recharge and recover and. And. And, you know, having downtime is. Is key for me, so I do that in a number of different ways. But, you know, at home, my family knows when I say I have to have mic time, you know, they know I just need some quiet time and be, you know, moments of reflection and. And go off. So. But that. I think that's the key thing for. For me. And again, I would say, you know, Adam, that's a great question. Last thing I would say is don't take yourself so serious. Get, you know, we taught. Touched on this at the very beginning. Give each of us grace. I mean, you know, we can beat ourselves up, but life is, you know, life is short and it's not, you know, we take it too serious sometimes, but we just have to give ourselves some grace and recognize it'll be better in the morning because we'll have an opportunity to learn and grow from the experience and figure out what we're going to do differently. So staying positive and recognizing that there will be something better at the end helps me.

Yeah, I. I just. I just so resonate with that. And I do. I do a lot of things to take care of myself and. And schedule those things and, you know, parts that we. We've talked about recently too. But. But the. The quiet, the making, the having that time to be. Be quiet, be still. I think you and I, we. We. We have similar. Some similar practices. I mean, prayer means a lot to me and being. Just being in gratitude. I don't think there's a better prayer than gratitude. And. And just feeling what. What in this moment is. Is can I. Can I be in. In a state of appreciation for even when it's. There's imperfection? It's again, that. That would take us down a whole nother path. But. But. But to go. Go a little easier, I think is. You know, my grandmother was a huge influence on my life. And one of my grandmothers, both of them I was close to, but one in particular was just, just had all those just things that she, I just felt like she always said something I absolutely needed to hear in the moment. And one of those, one of those things was just, she would say, just, just be easy on yourself. Be easy on yourself because she knew I was driving myself hard. And I think people drive themselves a lot harder than they maybe even are conscious of. And of course, we drive other people hard too in, in, in. In some response to that as well. So I think this is good. Where we're. I wanted, I intended that part of our conversation would meet people where they were. And, and again, knowing that we're in a time where whether there's headwinds or there's crosswinds or whatever it is, it's a choppy. I like to be on the water. And so I'll use that analogy. That's the analogy in the book Change Proof as well. The water is choppy and it's going to continue to be choppy. And so I think these things are really important in learning, in being able to navigate what is a choppy sea now and for the next little while here. So, Mike, thank you so much for your contribution today. This was a blast. I so appreciate everything.

I appreciate it, Adam. I appreciate you welcoming me on the, on the podcast and appreciate the work that you do and, and just so much. So grateful that you care deeply about others and you're trying to help us all get to a better place. So appreciate it.

Awesome. Thank you. Oh, my goodness. Love that conversation with Mike Fromm today. I have so many notes from, from my, my side of things. I can't even imagine what it was like for you all. But I'll do a little recap here. I just we. About how it is that we, that we produce a, an environment where people feel safe to challenge the status quo, where people feel empowered. And we were searching for that first domino and talking about how it is that those environments actually happen. How do they develop? And we finally, I think, came to the point where what we're talking about is the capacity to truly be present with people, to connect with people so that you're able to in fact, be transparent with them. And in, in doing so, trust is established. And when there's that psychological safety that, that, that is present in that space of trust, that people can then feel able, empowered even to challenge the status quo, to, to speak up, to have their opinions, their voices heard. We talked about humility in leadership. We talked about the current market cycle that, that we're, we're, we're all experiencing these choppy waters, these, this time of, of change, even greater change perhaps than, than even the changes that, that we initially thought might come after the, the lockdowns and the pandemic, etc. We talked about what a learning organization truly is and how it is that you develop one. We talked about the most important thing probably in the workforce today is an environment where people feel their opinions are wanted and are valued. We talked about the distinction between training and development. That was quite interesting. We talked about being future focused. We talked about the importance of humility and of patience in leadership. We talked about how it is that business challenges create leadership opportunities and vice versa, that leadership challenges create business opportunities. We really just, gosh, covered a number of things that at such a deep level as well as at a high level. We talked about how it is that, that business and people are one and the same. And I challenged or asked Mike to really expand on that. What does that look like? The difference between having a, a transactional mindset and, and, versus having a transformational mindset and what might get in the way of those things and, and, and what might in fact produce those things might, might lead to those outcomes. Just love the conversation. And, and what a good guy sitting in a, sitting in a very important role at, at Shaw Industries, in a role of great responsibility and great leadership. And you can hear in his voice, you can hear in, in the quality of his responses why he in fact sits in that seat. And, and I, I feel good for the folks at Shaw that they, that they've got somebody like that. That's a, that's a real credit to them. So I love the conversation. I hope you did too. If you know somebody who's really in a, in a role that they're feeling, feeling challenged by, that they may even not kind of have a sense of what their future might be within the organization that they're at the career path that they're on. Any number of different things that might have resonated with you today, including just what great leadership even looks like in the world that we're living in this vuca time, this blastic environment of challenge, change, disruption, etc. Please share this episode with a colleague, a friend, a family member, whoever that might be. We'd love it if you would provide a rating on the platform that you consume this podcast. A five star rating means that more people will get to be introduced to this. The content will show up in the feeds and, and be in front of more people. That's the way the algorithm works. So you're doing us a favor. We appreciate it greatly. If you've got a question or a comment for me or for Mike, feel free to go to AdamMarkel.com forward/podcast. Leave your comment or your question there. Appreciate that greatly. And of course, if, if you'd like to check in and see how resilient you or a member of your team or members of your team or are, you could simply go to rank my resilience.com forward/nothing. It's simply rank my resilient.com and there you are. Three minutes, you 16 questions, you will have your your answers to how resilient you are mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually. Rank my resilience.com forward/nothing. It's a simple URL. And, and three minutes later, you will get your answers. And on top of getting those answers to questions you might have about where your strengths are in, in resilience terms, where your opportunities for growth are in those same terms, you will get resources from us to help you to take a next step. And all of this is entirely our gift. It's free. It's a way that we create a ripple effect in the world and we hope that you'll take advantage of that because again, it just takes three minutes to do so. We will see on the flip side, on the other side of things, hopefully the next episode. We keep hearing from people in this community how much they enjoy these conversations, so we'd love to hear from you and we hope that you're enjoying it. And most importantly, I want to say thank you for, for tuning and thank you for listening to the Change Proof podcast today. Thank you.

Thanks for listening, everyone. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build responsibility, resilience and become change Proof. Help us inspire others by sharing this episode and leaving your comments over@adammarkel.com podcast. For more Resilience tips and strategies, including support for building Change proof teams, visit AdamMarkel.com BecomeChangeProop.