The Present And Future Of Remote And Hybrid Work With Gustavo Razzetti

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markell and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change.

Proof.

Hey everybody, it's Adam Markel. And welcome back to another episode of the Change Proof podcast. Today I have Gustavo Rossetti. Gustavo is passionate about helping teams do their best work. The best work of their lives is what he says. He's a sought after speaker, culture consultant and best selling author. After 25 years of helping organizations build purpose driven brands and teams, Gustavo created Fearless Culture to help organizations become purpose driven, agile and innovative. He is also the creator of the Culture Design Canvas, a culture mapping tool used by consultants, coaches and organizations worldwide. Gustavo's work has been featured in Psychology Today, the New York Times, Forbes, BBC and many other publications. He is the author of four books, including the recent Remote Not Distant A Roadmap to Build a Strong Culture for Remote and Hybrid Teams. You're going to love this conversation today. We're going to with Gustavo Rosetti. So sit back and enjoy. Okay, Gustavo, so you know, you and I, we are, I think we're brothers in, in many ways we do a lot of the same kind of work. I loved, I loved reading your bio. I thought, oh, this is, this is just the kind of person I want to talk to today. But I want to ask you a question that I always start every, every show with, which is what is one thing, just one thing that's not a part of your standard intro and bio that you hear quite frequently that you would like for people to know about you at the outset.

Absolutely. One of the things I like the most, it's cooking. And I learned to cook since I was a kid. A kid. And I'm busy. Not only I enjoy cooking, but I joined sharing the meal with people and for me it's a metaphor of figuring things out. So basically whatever I always tell my clients, whatever you throw it at me, I'm going to cook something with it. So tell me what you have, what ingredients you have, and I'm going to find something to hopefully delight you, but at least to have fun together.

Yeah, you know, the cooking metaphor is like a really good one. We were, we were discussing with a client or prospect just yesterday the, the idea of, of something that we, we want to do with them, something that they want to have done and, and the, the idea of creating a recipe and the ingredients, it's very powerful as, and metaphors, I don't know because you, I know you' as well as a facilitator and a leader of teams, etc. You know, metaphors to me are, are really, it's, it's like a shortcut as a learning device, as an accelerated learning tool, if you will, to help people to remember things, to understand things at a deeper level. It's biblical, really. I mean, the Bible is just filled with allegory. It's, it's symbol because those symbols teach, those allegories, teach the stories. Those are the things we remember without necessarily being able to recite chapter and verse. Everything that's, that's, you know, that's there. So I would love to know, is the, is the cooking metaphor, Is that one of your favorites? And if, and if it's, if it is or even if it isn't, what's it, what's another metaphor that you use in your work frequently?

I don't know if my favorite, I don't have favorite things. I always change. Maybe it's a flavor of the month, if you may. Another metaphor that I use a lot that really works well with teams is the, what we call the stinky fish. And this is a metaphor to talk about the issues that teams are facing but actually are not facing. So if you have a fish in the fridge and you don't take care of it, it's going to start to rotate. Not only you're going to have to throw it away, but everything's going to start contaminating everything around it. So the issues that start small, that teams, for whatever reason, they don't address, then they start to rot and contaminate the team and become bigger issues. So we always, and I also have a tool that we work with teams to uncover what's your stinky fish, what are the things that you're not saying, that if we don't tackle it, it's going to start to rot and contaminate the whole team.

All right, I, I, I want to dig into this a little bit more. I want to, I want to, I want to chew on, chew on this thingy fish for a minute more. And then I want to move on to another metaphor. But, but let's. So, so in the world that we're, that we are all in at this moment, an ever evolving, changing world, what are some of the stinky fish issues that you are seeing in the organizations that you're working with? And of course, you don't have to.

Name anybody you know, no, no, of course, but. But we also do lots of open workshops so where people share their stinky fish as well. So I can definitely share. I think the, the most common thing it's every time there's change, the uncertainty of what's going to happen, people are really afraid. And, and I think that sometimes leaders fear sharing bad news with people or news because news are not bad. It's just information and the lack of information actually get creative juices started. So people start filling all the blanks with very dramatic scenarios. And sometimes things are not as bad. So I would say that it's better to inform teams than to let them fill the blanks, if you may. There's also a lot of tensions about people in actions that never happen. So we hired the wrong person and they know I want to fire that person. And we kind of rotate them in multiple roles waiting to if the person someone would turn someone they were not. So basically procrastinating destination of issues. And that's very important. Many teams, the big issues were very small and simple at once. And because they were left unattended, then they turn into something more dramatic.

So something that maybe is not really a stinky fish. And this makes sense, right, because we all probably have something in our refrigerator that's been there a little too long maybe. Right. But. But when it comes to originally, it wasn't an issue necessarily. If we'd have handled it right away, it could have been. It wouldn't have gotten to that place where it became one. But then we, we ignore these things. What are some of the, the issues that you think people are ignoring today? What are, what are the conversations, if you will, that, that, that organizations and leaders are not having quickly enough in your, in your view Today.

One of the common themes that we see is lack of alignment between what leaders want and people. Second, the gap between what leaders declare to their teams. So they say, no, we really care about this, X, Y and Z. But then their actions prioritize something not only different, but many times the opposite. So that gap frustrates people. People say, don't tell me that your people send trick or center or people first. And then when margins go down, you fire people. So tell me I'm profit first and that's okay. So people prefer to be told the truth, even if they don't like it, than to be lied. And I think that's one of the most common tensions, the gap between what leaders declare and how they act. And then people get really frustrated and then the remote hybrid kind of tension between people wanting. Wanting flexibility and some leaders wanting people back in the office just because they want to without a clear explanation. That's one of the most common themes that we keep seeing over and over.

Yeah. Now, I know you wrote a book called Remote Not Distant. I actually, for those of you that may be watching this on YouTube, you can see it in. In Gustavo's background. Beautiful yellow cover. I mean, I'm a big fan of, like a striking color.

This is, this.

This book has the buoy, you know, Change proof has the buoy right there in yellow. So I'm. I'm a fan of that very much that color. So let's talk about the remote world and what has changed, do you think? Obviously, we've been through quite a bit of the cycle already. Meaning I think since the very start, people didn't know what was going to happen. How. How could an organization work remotely? You know, we had not done. Wasn't the future of work in 2020. At the beginning of 2020, it became the future of work quite quickly once the pandemic started. And now it is very much. It is the present of work, and it is also the future of work in many respects. But we're. We're still in a state of flux. As you said, not all the cards have been put on the table. Let's say that the, the organizations have not been. Have not disclosed their, their true intentions or their, their plans. Now, let's be clear, right? Organizations are just made up of people. They many, many companies don't know yet. They don't have a plan yet. And, and it would be great if they simply, you know, leaders are hesitant to say, hey, we just don't know. Hey, we just don't have a plan yet. When we have one, we'll let you know. But that kind of radical honesty, if you will, transparency, vulnerability, even to say you don't know something and that we're not ready to make a decision, you know, that would be refreshing, I suppose. But, you know, that will also mean that maybe these folks are not competent. They're supposed to know. That's what. If they don't know and I don't know, why are they getting paid 10 times what I get paid? I don't know. You know, the way people are. Right. So. So there's a reason why I think people who are in leadership roles, senior leadership roles, don't always disclose what they don't know. But. So there's a chance that that's the case. But there's also a chance that they do know, that they have a sense of what they are looking to do in the future and are not yet telling everybody transparently what, what is to come. What are you seeing there? You're very much an expert in this arena. Tell us, tell us what the, what the present day of future, present day of remote working and hybrid working looks like today.

Absolutely. Like every change and every trend, you don't notice it until it's too late. No. You're waiting for that wave to surf. You're in San Diego and once they, if that second the wave is going to pass you and you miss it. And I think with this is something that was boiling, it was happening until it finally came to fruition. So the pandemic accelerated something. There was a need for people to work differently, there was a need for people to find balance between personal and professional lives and so on and so forth. And the pandemic accelerated that process. The point is some companies are seeing that as well. We gain a lot of learning. Imagine like go back two, three years back, people didn't know how to work remotely, didn't have the technology, didn't have the willingness. They have the process, lots of stuff. And yet most companies not only survived, but thrive financially and in many other aspects. So people say, hey, when we didn't have the resources, we did it kind of okay. Now we learn after two years and a half or more. So why do we want to go back to how things used to be rather than apply those learnings? And also the benefits, because if I can save my 40 minute one hour commute and spend it doing something else, why not? Interestingly enough, people that save the commute because they're working mostly remote, they don't spend that time only on themselves. Maybe 80% it's back to them personal time, but they work an extra 20% for the company. So when we were commuting, we didn't work. So now companies also have that extra benefit. I think what we're seeing is there are leaders that are lost, but at least recognize, hey, I don't know how the future is going to look like, but let's figure it out one day at a time, one week at a time and we are going to be pivoting. There are leaders that are completely clueless and decide to, you know what? We better go back to how things used to be. And the reason is there's a lack of trust. And people think that if their employees, their team members are visible, then it's going to be easy to manage. But actually the message that they're sending is I don't trust you. And when you say when people can feel that you don't trust them, they're not going to trust you back. So that's kind of, in a nutshell, some of the key themes.

Yes, I think you brought something up that's really powerful. That, that is part of our history. The way we would measure, that managers would measure productivity was basically to see are you behind your desk or are you doing something? If you were doing something, then you were busy or whatever you were, then you were somehow productive and earning, earning your keep. But to not be able to look in, at your cubicle or in your office or see when you came in at 7:30 in the morning who's in the office, you know, that's the. Or, or, or at 8:30 or at 5:30 or 7, you know, who's still in the office, who, who's here first, etc. You know, that was the litmus test for who's the most productive, who's the most, who's most keen and, and eager and all the rest of it. So yes, so now we have this, this unknown, so to speak. There's no, there's that, it's, there's not.

A.

I guess a time, you know, the way you punch a time clock. I mean, there's still factory people and, and other people that are required to, to, to check in and so that, you know, you know when they're starting or what have you. But with remote work, it requires trust or with hybrid situations requires trust. So I think you put your finger on something, you know, fundamentally important. And, and I guess the question I want to ask is, is that lack of trust on the part of, let's say a manager or some other leader warranted what we're into this now, long enough, couple of years in now to be able to look at numbers to see how productive people in the remote space actually are. Gustavo and I don't know if you have access to that. I don't. I'm making an assumption that we have enough time at this point to have reliable data about that. But I think that's a question that's still in people's minds. It hasn't been resolved. At least I haven't heard it resolved. So what's your, what's your thoughts on that?

The point is there are a lot of research and facts that show that people are more productive when working in a hybrid environment if done well, because there are people that do it, but not necessarily the right way. Also, organizations that offer hybrid have increased diversity to a level that no one saw before. For example, is Spotify. Now, more than 45, 46% of the senior leadership positions are held by women. That basically, in the past two, three years ago, that wasn't the case. So basically they triple the amount of women in position because of job flexibility, because they can balance a personal staff with professional staff in a more convenient way. The same happened with Allstate, the insurance company. So they really increased the amount of minority employees, Hispanic, African Americans, that now apply to a new job opening because of this. So there are dramatic changes. There are facts that shows that it works. Many companies have been operating remotely or in a highway since the beginning of age, and they're doing great. Some companies require a mix. I mean, if you're an airport operator, flight operator, you need to be there. You cannot do it from home, right? But I think the most important thing, it comes back to trust. So leaders talk a lot about data, about being data driven, about information, but then when they come to certain decisions, they are biased as anyone. They're not perfect. They're human beings. And basically going back to the, they don't trust people. Tobias Luke, who is the CEO from Shopify, uses a metaphor. That's the trust battery. So basically, and we do this activity with leaders, like, how does your trust battery work? Do you start with an empty battery, with a full battery, with a half full battery, depending on the situation, when you're starting a new relationship. And also the second part, which is as important, how fast that does, that battery either depletes or gets full. Because if you start with a full battery and you trust your team a lot, but the first mistake they make, you immediately don't trust them anymore, doesn't work. So I think trust, to your point, is critical in this situation. So it's not about the facts, it's about the emotions that come to play. If I don't see people working, I think they are not working. And that's something that's ingrained because leaders were created, were raised like that in the past.

Again, I'm playing the angels advocate here because I think there's still people that go, so I get that we all want trust, we want to be trusted and we want to trust others. I don't think there's anybody with push back on that. And somebody might say, well, in order for me to trust, I need something, I have to have something. You know, it's like I don't just give my car keys to my 17 year old kid because they've been taking driving lessons. I go out in the car and watch them drive, sit in the passenger seat and if they're a good driver, then they can borrow the car kind of thing. So I think on some level it's a bit of a show me it's, it feels like there's a, an element of show me how it is that, that we're getting, you know, the work is being done more productively and then I will, and then I may have more trust for this. I guess my question there is if you are, are seeing that, that the company or that your group is not performing at the level that, that you would would want or expect or that the company expects and would you not come to the assumption, let's say, or surmise that it's possible that being away from one another, not being able to collaborate, not being able to walk into one another's office or space to ask questions, to get ideas, you know, to be able to have innovative random conversations, unplanned conversations that happen in collision zones inside of an office building, in the hallways and in the break rooms and things. Wouldn't you make the assumption that perhaps that that's going to be, that that's going to be an issue that we have to deal with. I'm just trying to see, you know, how, how the other side is, is viewing this. Any, any thoughts on that?

Absolutely. And I did a lot of research for my book also for the kind of work I do with clients. And first of all, like when people didn't have a choice, when leaders didn't have a choice, they trusted people to work from wherever they, they could with the tools they could because they weren't ready, didn't have the right connection, the right technology, etc. Grows up to the occasion and we're able to keep most business up and running. Right. So what people are saying now that we have a choice, why is this on working? I agree with you that not everyone is reliable. But first of all, people already went through a scrutiny process when they were recruited. So if you recruited the right person, so you don't hire your 16, 17 year old to drive your trucks, you say, no, I'm hiring truck drivers who have the right experience. If you hire and you did your due diligence, then you should trust because you verify first and then you trust. There's a company that's called Atlassian, which is an Australian team software company, multibillion organization, that they have a practice that every time they hire someone new, they give them like a 5, $7,000 check and they invite them to take vacation before they join. So basically what the company saying is I did my due diligence during the recruiting process. Once I hire you, I trust you and I'm actually giving you money to go and spend a vacation. Even you work one hour and you do something for me. So the message it sends, it's powerful. When you trust people, people are going to give it back and then it's not going to be the other way around. However, there's always 35% of people that are going to screw up. Have a one on one work with those people, but don't punish the majority because just a few people are basically slacking or not working or being responsible. I think that leaders create rules that apply to everyone just because they are not having conversation with the people that are not really doing their job right.

So that's the aberration, in other words. And, and I would say that, that we're hearing more, I know we're hearing more that organizations are saying, you know, we're going to have you come back perhaps over the next few months, two days a week or three days. And I'm hearing a lot of three day a week work situations. Coming back into the office. Coming back into the office. Gustavo, do you think that that's a good idea? I know it. Every, every situation is different. Every company is different. So I, I don't expect you to create a blanket answer for this, but just to what extent do you think if a company has been, as you said, came through the worst of the, of the pandemic and now of course we, we have different kinds of headwinds, economically, politically, etc. You know, is it a good, is it a good idea? And if it is, or even if it isn't, what's the, what's the best way to communicate with, with people about this, this coming back to the office eventuality, we'll call it.

Yeah. First of all, it's like it's not a black and white conversation. Until point in my book I described there are five different models of how to implement hybrid. And this one that is three days in the office today is at home or four on one. Whatever the case is. It's a, it has become the norm for many companies, but it's not the most effective because organizations are missing the opportunity that instead of designing work around the schedule, they should design the schedule around the work. And when I say the work is what type of work?

Say more about that please.

Yeah, let me Say that we are part of a team, you and I, Adam, and we still work together. We have another, I don't know, six more colleagues and we are cracking a new product and we need to do something that requires that we work together, that we spend a lot of time together together, that we go to the street to test our hypothesis with users, blah, blah. So maybe we need to spend one or maybe two weeks working from the office or in the same place, whatever that is, because the nature of the work dictates that. But then when the two of us and other people, we all split and we go in implementation, maybe we don't need to see each other for one or two weeks and we need to touch base in certain critical moments. So it's about understand what type of, what's the nature of the work that needs to be done and design your schedule around it rather than in the end. So I go two days at the office and what for? Because I have to be there. So it's, what's the purpose of bringing people together and why people should work separately. Also one of the benefits for people, it's saving money on the commute, maybe living farther away from their job. So if they have more flexibility, then they have that benefit as well. So I think the big change is we need to stop thinking about the nine to five and recreate the four days in the office, one from home or whatever model, and think what work are my team up to and what's the best arrangement for that project in the next two or three weeks. So we need flexibility.

Yeah, it's, it's almost like at a, at a very granular level. We're saying you're treating each employee individually, meaning you're constructing something of a best case, work case scenario for each individual employee or at a slightly less granular level at a team level or at a function level or in some other capacity that involves a grouping of employees. And I guess there's a lot that's labor intensive that requires a lot of thought. It requires its own, its own planning and oversight. And, and yeah, it, I, I suppose people would be thinking, well, is that scalable? That's, you know, it's not a, it's not a cookie cutter approach by any means. And I think that's what we're saying anyway, that the future of work and where we're at is, is less cookie cutter than it has ever been. Certainly.

Absolutely.

Meeting people where they are.

Yeah, definitely. And I think that individual considerations or individual expectations. Sorry. Need to be considered, but we need to have team conversation because this is not about what Adam or Gustavo want is you work on the same team. We need to have certain arrangements the same way that we can have flexible hours. Some people like to start working early in the day, some people like to work. They're more like night owls. Well, but we still need to agree that from, I don't know, 1pm to 4pm we're all going to be available for meetings or collaboration, whatever that takes. So there need to be some ground rules that bring the team together. So it's not like everyone does whatever they want. That's the point is freedom with accountability. But in the end, the companies have been people that stuff. There are many companies have been operating like that for decades. Not only remote first company, but most global teams that have people in Indonesia, in France, in Canada, in San Diego, whatever. That's the way they work always.

But they were maybe, you know, you said earlier that part of what happened in the pandemic was we didn't, you know, we went into the pandemic without the, the resources to work remotely. I, I was part of a company, was running a CEO for a company that was in for four continents. We were using Zoom. I actually, interestingly enough, I'm family member of mine discovered Zoom in 2015 or 2014 or something. You know, it was very early versions of it, but it was so effective that I could get on with my senior leadership team that was in Sydney or in Singapore or in, or in Vancouver and have everybody participate in meetings. Very similar to the way you and I are doing this now on Zoom. So it is, you know, there's, there's, there's a lot of technology and a lot of ways of doing things that, that we could have been doing this five or six years sooner. And, and so I, I question in my mind even in this moment, you know, how much technology, how many resources and tools are available that we're just that we're not focused on not utilizing when it comes to the future. Still future in of, of where work is headed. You said something earlier about that triple the number of women are in leadership roles, more senior level leadership because of the flexibility that the pandemic and remote work provided. You also mentioned other groups that have been marginalized, Hispanics. And I wanted to know where it is that the flexibility. I understood when you said that flexibility would help women in the workplace because I'm making the assumption that for many women they've had a conflict between their, their family and obligations and responsibilities and being mothers in particular. And being in the office, in the, you know, the eight. The eight to six, you know, here's how I. Here's how I climb the ladder kind of grind. But what could you say in terms of other. Other disenfranchised groups and why remote work has helped them?

That's a great question. Thank you for framing it. I mean, first of all, there's a location aspect. So there are certain populations that live in smaller towns where the access to better executive jobs. It's not possible. Right? Yeah, they have a job, but small. But if they want to grow, they're smart, they want to have a career. And now they can access to larger organizations. Actually, not only in the US but they can work globally for companies that operate across the world.

World.

There's also the travel thing. I mean, there's a cost associated. No, and, and, and there's also the incense of having kids. So minorities have a higher level of kids compared to, to the average American. And that means because of age stuff, you know, it's because they tend to have more kids too. And because of that reality, it's more complicated if you're a mom or a single dad or whatever, to go to the office every day. So having that flexibility is better. And then there's an element of psychological safety that there are a lot of exclusive kind of conversations or what they call microaggressions that happen in the workplace that when you're at home, they don't happen that often, or you can turn off your camera, go and grab a coffee or go for a walk, but if you're in the office the whole day. So there's many elements. There's no one. But in the end, that has helped the flexibility of schedule. It's critical.

Got it. Yeah, that. And I wanted to understand a little bit about how remote hybrid work relates to. If it, if it does. In fact, if you can draw some comparisons to lay out a bit of the relationship as you see it between that and, and ESG paradigm and principles.

Yeah, there's a lot of benefits when it comes to the impact of work. So commute not only cost people a lot, but a society costs a lot because we're moving people from like, you have a house that you need to keep heated, but you're not going to be there, but you're going to be working. I mean, not you in San Diego. I'm talking here in Chicago that's still in the 30s, whatever. And, and that costs money. No, to, to the environment. No, it's a huge impact. Traffic, it's another traffic also. It's not only the problem of traveling from one place to another but also the impact it has in people, mental health, accidents, lights, et cetera.

I can relate to that. I used to be a three hour a day commuter, sometimes four hours when oh my God. I would go from my, our house in central New Jersey to my office. My, I was a lawyer back then. So my law office in Manhattan, it was on a good day, it was an hour and a half. On a bad day it could be two two and a half hours each way. And yeah I was not the happiest, happiest person back then upon arrival in either location.

Yeah I know. I, I lived in Connecticut and have to commute to New York City and I know what you're talking about. So the commute per se it emotionally not only the cost for the individual, the cost for sale but also the emotions, the time that you wait. So there are many aspects. Of course a commute has also everything has an upside and down when you commute you have time to relax, you have time to transition. I used to go to Chicago all the time and work there in an office and, and I took the train and I wrote, I read, I did a lot of email when it was so was a great focus work moment for me.

Yes.

So but in the end the impact, I mean for example in Europe many leaders don't move, don't travel because they don't want to spend the, the carbon footprint in a flight to visit their, their, their teams. You know.

Right.

By taking a flight or they take a train or they just work remotely. And I see a lot working with large global corporations that they're seeing the benefit, the impact that their company have in the planet reduced because of having people distributed and having to work in the same place also. And lastly the impact in office footprint. Many leaders especially CFOs are saying hey, if people are not going to be here all the time, we need to less footprint. That saves the company money. But also the impact in the environment in the long run is smaller.

Yes. And you already mentioned earlier about, on, on the social side how it is that this has increased the opportunities for, for, for groups of people that were typically just experienced a harder time advancing pay pay wise and responsibility wise in the workplace. So you, you, you've indicated that as well. So, so I do see strong correlation between the goals, the ESG goals and how remote work might meet those. I want to in the last section here just talk a little bit about you personally. You know the Work that I do in the world in organizations similar to you is not about so much remote. The concept of the remote work, even though that's an element, it's about wellness. How do we create more well being in the workplace? And I wrote a book earlier in the year called Change Proof to talk about this concept of how it is that we, that we are able to embrace change. And one of those changes is that that corporations have to become more empathetic. The, the organization is a fiction of sorts, a legal fiction, but, but it operates through people and those people have to understand other people and, and be able to care for them better. I'm. I'm wearing a shirt today that says got your back. And it's that that concept of having each other's backs that is, is so powerful in producing greatness. Organizations that are actually able, able to impact in a very positive way many, many other people. So my question to you is how have you developed resilience personally? Or how is it that you've developed resilience within your own team? Teams? What does that, what does that look like for you over the, over the last few years?

That's a good point. I think that for me resilience is the ability to bounce back and, and I think that the best way to learn how to do that is to go through a situation in which you don't have a escape route and you figure it out. So in my case, short story, like I got lost. I was doing trekking in a mountain in the Andes and I got lost and I have to improvise shelter and spend one night there without any food, without any water, without any not even the proper clothing and was raining and snowing and have to figure out how I survive. I'm not one of these guys that start building stuff with their fingers. But I figured it out and I realized that the most important thing for me that's critical for resilience is like understand where you are and keep your mind calm and understand. Well, I cannot control the environment, but I can control my reaction. And that was basically very important. So I apply that same experience to new things every time I embark myself in uncharter waters. It's okay. Well, at some point I realize, hey, it's snowing, it's late, I need to stop, I need to read the signals and then adapt.

Yes, the adaptation is a strong piece of resilience. We are myself and our company does a lot of research on it. I do quite a bit of keynote speaking on the topic of resilience and Today, much of it is on stress management, on mental health, on work, life balance, on things of that sort. But often people will quote Darwin in terms of this concept of sort of the survival aspects, the survival of the fittest even. Right. Everybody knows that. But, but they miss. I think the most important aspect of what Darwin was, was sharing, which was that it's the most adaptable. It's, it's the people that can adapt to changing environmental circumstances that are the, are the ones that, that are, are the fittest, if you will. And the fittest is not necessarily the strongest. It's not necessarily somebody that doesn't fall down or make mistakes or find themselves in uncharted waters, as you said, it's the person that's able to be flexible, agile, alert, as you said, aware and able to understand that there is that, that it's, there's. There is even if there's fear in the unknown, that there's, there's also comfort in. And this is where our world intersects with yours. I'd say there's comfort in your ability to create situations that allow you to recharge. You talked about remote work as a way that people get to produce something in a more effective way, in a way that's effective for them and therefore it's effective or maybe I say more effective for the organization. From our standpoint, that's what resilience is all about. It's the ability to recharge your battery. You talked about the trust battery earlier. So I think it's true. We wake up in the morning and we have a battery for that day. You know, a. Sometimes we use a different analogy, but we talk about like a bank account, like a resilience bank account. Right. But let's just say use it to battery. Today we wake up, we have a battery, we have a charge for the day. How is it that you can maintain the, the, the full strength throughout the day? Because in all likelihood many of the things that are going to happen will, will slowly or not so slowly erode that the strength of that battery, you will become more and more depleted throughout the day. And if you're not aware of how it is that you can recharge the battery, then at some point the battery, you know, runs out of juice. I remember from earlier parts in my career that even when I was younger I would run out of juice around 2 o' clock in the afternoon and didn't know, you know, it wasn't even, I was aware of it, it wasn't thinking about it that way. And so I would just go get coffee, go get, go eat, go get sugar, you know, like something to just keep going. And that was not, that was not a recipe or a good strategy, let's say, for productivity for myself or for being, being at my best. And normally what would happen is that I would just sort of grip my way through the end of the day as a lawyer. The end of the day. I, I sort of kid about this now, but I would, I would save some of my, some of my angriest work. I did it 4 o' clock in the afternoon. I would write my love letters and I would, you know, I would just do this stuff. I was a litigation attorney. So in that, in those moments when I was the most sort of the least patient, the most agitated, you know, that's when I would do that kind of work. But then I would also come home and then I wasn't, I wasn't right coming in the door. I was, that was wiped out. I was exhausted. I was, you know, depleted. And you can go on like that for lengths of time, especially when you're younger, you can, you can, you can play the grit card for a long time before it shows. At least it, that was the case for me. And then I ended up in the hospital and I had my, you know, my scary moment, you know, which is another story for another day. But a lot of people today, a lot of young folks we see, are showing the signs of that earlier and, and they're vocal about it. When I went to the hospital with my, what my life, my wife calls my fart attack, my, my fake heart attack, it, it was years and years of ignoring my feelings and what was going on with me that led to that, to that very lucky day when I didn't actually have a cardiac arrest. Today we're seeing a lot of young people talking about the anxiousness, their anxiety and feelings much earlier and they're also experiencing that potentially even earlier, that depletion that leads to frustration, hopelessness, sheer exhaustion and depression, and they're experiencing that earlier. Has that been your, your experience in, in, in, in your work as well with teams? Are you seeing that? And what, what. Do you have any insights about that that you can share with us? Yes, and 1, 1, 1, 1 parenthetical question to that is does the remote work make, and this is really, I think the point for you in your, in your world, does the remote work make that easier or more difficult? Like when I, a person who has a 9 to 5 job, they know when they, they, they enter the workplace they know when they leave the workplace there are clear sort of boundaries. It seems, or it seemed today, that remote work means you can work anytime, and that means you work almost anytime. So that's my question to you.

Yeah, I mean, starting from the last question, I think that I wouldn't say that remote is better or worse. It's how you do it. Because in the end, there are some people that are working remotely, either fully or in a hybrid arrangement, and they're working endless hours. And there are people that are able to control their time much better. I think that remote, or working partially remote at least gives you the flexibility to. Hey, to your point, if it's 2:00pm and I'm depleted, I can take a nap, I can go for a walk. Now you feel that you have that space to take care of yourself and then recharge. Because when your battery gets depleted, you cannot move on. You can grid. Grid can take you so far away. So you need at some point to recharge. And the best way to recharge is to switch activities. So it gives you the ability. Some people leverage it, many people don't. So it's not like a easy recipe, easy fix. It's more how you do it. But. But I think in the end, what happens, it's what's the purpose? Sometimes when we lose the focus on why are we doing the work that we're doing, then our level of resilience, our bank account, it gets kind of a. We withdraw everything we had there and there's no money left. Overdraft, more than. Yeah, we start paying interests because we rather draw. Exactly. So we're in the negative side. So I think that it's important to connect. No. If you're basically working and working, working and you forget why you're doing and if your work doesn't mean anything, is there no impact to what you're doing, then of course you're going to get tired, you're going to get stressed out and that stuff. So I think it's important to always, are you doing what you want to do, how the job that you do brings you a passion, connects you to what challenges you, learns you, and also gets you out of the comfort zone. Sometimes we get stressed out not because we're being pushed to our limits, it's because we're not push at all. And we're being our comfort zone can be as bad as trying to take our behaviors to the extreme all the time.

Indeed. Yeah. Gustavo, I so have enjoyed this conversation. My last question for you is just, is There one thing that you do on a routine basis, again, our definition of resilience is, is how it is that we, we recover. So it's the recovery that is, is the, the important item that helps us to bounce forward, if you will, to bounce back, but bounce back stronger. To bounce forward requires that we ritualize our practices for recovery. So my question is, is there one thing that you do on a ritual basis to recover and recharge your battery?

Absolutely. I think the two things, first, I anticipate the need to recharge. So when I need to, for example, I work with global clients. So I say tomorrow I have to start at 5am I need to, I done an early riser and I need to. So I know that that's going to take a toll on me because I'm not going to go to it until whatever. So I'm going to have to work longer hours. I re. Anticipate that, that okay, tomorrow I'm going to give that extra effort. But then the next day I design it for, I'm going to start later. I'm going to have a cushion for taking care of myself. So I designed the, the chaos and the recovery very uphand. I don't say, well, now that I'm depleted, what I'm going to do so that people. Because you don't even have the time to think or the energy to plan for that. But for me, the most important thing, I like what I call the God getting lost. It's kind of a ritual that I use when I feel that I'm getting depleted. I need to get lost. That could be grabbing my road bike and start riding 30, 40 miles in any direction without a clear plan. That could be going for a walk, that could be writing something, doing some research for an article or whatever it is, but kind of a change. I think that sometimes the brain has much more energy than we think. We need to put the energy into something that becomes rewarding at that time. And so we feel the weight when we're always doing the same. If you're doing a very deep work activity, you need to do something that's more superficial and the other way around. And I think that helps me a lot.

Yes, I'm just writing, writing down a couple of notes on what you said. But I, I love the getting lost. And it's funny or maybe it's not funny, right? You, you found yourself lost that one night you had to survive a night in the mountains in the Andes, right. And so getting lost, is that like a bit tongue in cheek do you say that as a bit of a.

No, no, I turn it into. And turn into. I learned from that that I mean, because I think about resilience talking about your topic. It's not fighting back reality. You know, when you realize, hey, instead of saying I'm going to find my way home because I'm so smart, I say, hey, I need to stay put. So I learned also that getting lost helped me reframe a lot of things about my life, about myself. So now sometimes I get lost on purpose. It has become a practice.

Beautiful. I love it. That. What a wonderful way to close the loop right there. Gustavo, you're awesome and I so appreciated our conversation today. I know our folks have as well. So to. To the audience, a couple of, couple of calls to action here. First of all, if this is a conversation you would love to share with some other folks, please do that. It's always so wonderful when we hear that you're sharing these episodes with friends, family, colleagues, etc, there'll be full show notes. So in the show notes you can find out much more about Gustavo's work. You can find out about his brand new book, wonderful book. As well as he's a keynote speaker. So he's somebody that you could also I'm sure, reach out to, to have come and speak at your event. We'd love to hear from you as well to know how this episode landed for you. Was there things that you wanted to hear more of, things that were impactful, you know, insights, etc. You go to AdamMarkel.com podcast and leave your comment and it will be me, yours truly, that will respond to those. And lastly, a request, a favor if you will. And I say it's a favor because of course it's self serving to make this request. But it would be wonderful if you would rate the podcast. You know, they give you that opportunity on the platform that you're, that you are listening to it, to rate it 5 stars, 5 stars, a great rating or less. If that's, you know, what you feel like is, is, is true for you. But when you rate the podcast, it, it assists the algorithm to put this podcast in front of more people that might be beneficial, that might enjoy it and it might be a benefit too. So you're helping us, but you're also helping others. It's a ripple effect. It's community. So I, you know, learned long ago that struggle is optional. And by that I mean often it is in our lives. We struggle because we don't ask other people for help. So that's it. I would appreciate it. We appreciate it, and thank you for listening today. And again, we. We love the fact you're part of this community, and we look forward to connecting with you again very, very soon. Well, I thoroughly enjoyed speaking to Gustavo. I'm sure you did as well. I got so much out of that conversation. So many insights and so many notes. Just a little bit. We started talking about the stinky fish. I mean, what a great metaphor. And, and Gustavo, really, I think he. He hit on it that so often it is the case in our personal lives, but specifically with our teams and our businesses, that we. We ignore issues, and we ignore them the way we ignore that fish that's. That's getting stinky inside of the refrigerator. That needs to be dealt with. And, and what we realize is that if we just deal with it sooner, then it doesn't. It doesn't get to that place. It's. It's not a stinky fish at the beginning, even though you might think so. It gets stinkier, let's put it that way. It gets worse with time, not better with age. It's not a good wine. So we've got to deal with those issues up front. Today we talked about the benefits of the remote and hybrid work situation in a way that I've not talked to any other. Any other researcher, author, speaker about it before. And the impact that remote work has had, the positive impact that it is having to this day for organizations, for esg, for environmental social governance principles. How it is that. That in this world of remote and hybrid work, many of the marginalized and disenfranchised groups of folks have been able to advance because there's just so much more flexibility in order to do that. Whether it's been women. In fact, three times as many women are in leadership roles since the pandemic than before that was the case, and in part because women can work in a more flexible way and care for their families, for their children, and still care for their careers, which is absolutely remarkable. We also talked about the fact that with other groups of folks that have been also not able to advance as quickly as others, the hybrid and remote situations allowed flexibility in terms of where you work, geographically speaking, you don't have to live or. Or within a commuting distance to a major city, for example, to get paid top dollar to work in large organizations and have more responsible jobs, et cetera. There's less of an incidence in those remote situations or hybrid situations of the kind of microaggressions that occur when People are not being treated fairly or when others are biased or where there's a certain element of, of just lack of understanding, lack of inclusion and understanding and, and a lack of psychological safety for people to really lean into their jobs more fully because they feel like they don't necessarily have a fair shot. And, and this has leveled the playing field in a lot of ways for those people as well. We talked about trust and how really at the heart of the, the whole back to work and getting people back in the office drive has a lot to do with how managers and other senior level leaders think about, about their workers and whether they, they have a, an element of trust or feel trust that they're, they're able to get the work done. And, and without that trust, of course, there's, there's the, the, the desire to sort of micromanage people, look after, look over them, not look after them, I would say. And the like. Like we talked today as well about how remote and other more flexible work situations might be contributing to what extent it's contributing to a lack of recovery to people feeling more exhausted or more depleted or more anxious than they may have ever been feeling before and what we do about it. We talked about the trust battery and I thought that conversation and that distinction was really quite, quite a great one, one that I'm going to think about as well. And, and lastly, when I was speaking to Gustavo, he shared some of his own principles for recovery and how he practices getting lost on a regular basis. Getting lost, you know, you tell somebody get lost, right? Well, Gustavo tells himself to get lost for a particular purpose and a purpose that is really beneficial to him and his, and his resiliency. So, so again, love the conversation. Hope you did as well. Hope you share it with other folks. And, and again, you know, our request is always the same. If you love this episode, share it with a friend or a family member or colleague and give us a, A rating if you could. And, and leave a comment, you know, you can do that as well. And, and lastly, I'll say this, if you're curious how resilient you or somebody on your team is right now, you can simply go to resiliencerank.com resiliencerank.com and in three minutes, and I kid you not, less than three minutes, you will get a snapshot in time of your mental, emotional, physical, and yes, even your spiritual resilience. So take advantage of that. It's entirely free. It's our gift to you and I'll just wish you a wonderful rest of your day and say ciao for now.

Thanks for listening. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build resilience and become change proof. Remember to leave a review on Apple Podcasts and you may be featured in an upcoming episode. For more resilience tips and strategies, including support for building change proof teams, visit AdamMarkel.com to get your own free resilience assessment, go to rankmyresilience.com.