The Secret To Effective Communication With Ken Bogard

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day, we face change, stress, and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markell and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change.

Proof.

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Change Proof podcast. I am still your host, Adam Markell, and it is a blessing to be here with all of you. I hope you find this show really enlightening. I'm going to use that word in particular because the guest that I've got today is going to provide a level of heightened awareness, of heightened opportunity for enlightenment. And that is. That's a big task or a big ask, let's say. But you'll decide. You make the decision. Let me read his bio. I'm going to jump right in. But you're going to love this guy. His name is Ken Bogart. He's the founder of Know Honesty. And that's not N o, that's K. N O W. Honesty, an organization is committed to improving professional lives by addressing their core needs. With extensive experience in entrepreneurial spirit, he empowers individuals and fosters collaboration, positively impacting more than 300 business owners and thousands of employees across 60 organizations. His dedication to honesty and clarity has sparked a transformative movement in business management and leadership development. Again, you're going to love this conversation. I know we're going to get so much out of it together. Please welcome Ken Bogard. Okay, Ken, so first of all, I love what we were talking about before we even hit the record button. So I know, I know today's conversation is going to be epic and, and really interesting. So I'm curious and I'm excited. At the same time, at the same time as that, I've just shared with our audience a lot about you and your history and what you've been doing in the world and all that kind of thing. My question out of the gate is really, what's something that's not part of that history, or at least not part of the written history that you. That. That your people gave to my people, that I've shared now with other people? What's one thing that's not part of your CV that you would love for people to know about you at the outset of our convers?

Yeah, happy to share. I think it's a good one. It's a huge piece of my life. I was raised solo by my father and he is a stoic German, Lutheran, retired Engineer, ex military. And that's who raised me. So no mom in the picture, just him and I. And here I am years later coming out with a communication book. They don't tend to add up. That doesn't. That came from that, and it did. And so it's just kind of an interesting story. And I think I love my father. And he loves me, still does to this day. Loves me in a whole different sort of way than I think people view love from, say, parents that take care of you. And what that's done for me in a mindset that that's given to, to me is, I think, looking at what he's done with his life, even though he's raised me, I. I don't want to follow those footsteps. And so I went to my own tune in a different direction. And the mindset that I've had for all these years, somehow some way is get comfortable being uncomfortable when a lot of what I think my father sought out was as much comfort and safety and risk adverseness as possible. And so somehow born out of all this is this opposite figure that he raised up.

Yeah, it's, it's reminiscent to me of a. I read a book called Shoe Dog. You ever heard that? The title. So it's the founder of Nike, and I'm drawing a blank and somebody out in the audience, I wish you could just like, call it out for me. Right, right now. Tell me. It's like, I got a producer here that, that should be, you know, whispering in my ear if I had one of those, those little earpieces right now. Right. But. But I'm going to do that. I'm going to do the thing right, because there's no reason why not to. So I want to, I want to shout out to the property proper, you know, person and get it right. So I'm looking it up right now, but it's the, it's the Nike founder and it's Phil Knight. Duh. Okay, so Phil Knight, you know, he writes this book about this very, you know, amazing company that's been around a long time that wasn't called Nike for the first, I think, almost decade of its existence, funny enough, was like Blue Ribbon, Blue Ribbon Enterprise or something like that. Yeah. And it's a book I highly recommend to people to read. But there's something in there that's reminiscent about his father and his upbringing. Now. He had mother and father growing up, but. But really, you know, very similar to what you just described. I'd like to just get a sense too of you Know, sort of this. That. The comfort, not discomfort thing. Right. Because I can understand and that generationally, you know, maybe his dad probably, you know, even one generation before your dad is my guess, because Phil. Phil Knight's, you know, in his 70s, probably at this point. But that idea that, you know, we should be comfortable, in fact, that the American dream in many respects is a dream around comfort. People came from other countries. I know my ancestors did. Your. Your ancestors did, and they came out of tremendous discomfort, you know, from a. You know, in so many respects, they came here seeking a better life and that, you know, sort of better life equals comfort. So can you say anything around, you know, how do you. You know, looking at you and your dad and your philosophy, I'm sure you like comfort. I'm sure you. You don't wake up and go, I want to have pain today. So. So what's the nuanced distinction between his way of living to attain comfort and the way that you approach it, either as an entrepreneur or as a leader? Like, what's. What's the difference in the mindset there?

I might wake up wanting pain today. So I love it. Thank you. I think it's a part of me. I don't know what it is. So he's in his late 70s, and he was an engineer and mechanical mind and not real social and kept to himself. And, you know, he wanted. He wanted his. His safe home, not too big. He wanted the safe income you want to put away, the 5% per year you're supposed to retire. Save, save, save, save, save. And that's what he wanted. And there's a book that comes to mind called unscripted by DJ DeMarco that I read that book and I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm living a totally scripted life. Like I'm doing exactly the thing my. My father's doing. But that's not what my heart wants. You know, my heart wants to explore, wants to see different things. It wants to communicate with different people. It wants to see all the challenges, the good, bad, and ugly. And, you know, I can't. I can't really tell you what in my childhood or early adult life led me to want something else. It's just how I'm designed. So I'm going to accept that design and I'm going to follow what I want. And I think what I want and what I desire is to help people massively and to do it in a way that. Is this coming from a place of discomfort? Because I think when. When people seek comfort the true condition isn't coming out. Every person on this planet, for instance. I'm going somewhere heavy. Let me go macro for a second. We live in a planet full of 8 billion people. Every single one of them has a different perspective than you and I. We're all different, totally different beings. And I think what we try to do, each one of us, is design a world for one. And we just try to create this one world. And 7.999 billion people are wrong. And disagreeing with me is not okay. And so we build these walls and build a wall here and build a wall here and a level here and some depth to it so we can trap ourselves into the perfect little life that we want. And it's screwing us all up because everybody is trying to do that. And if you are trying to build a world for one, it's impossible, first of all. But it's an extremely lonely place. Why would we do that?

Well, you just gave me the chills, Ken, and I didn't see this conversation evolving the way it has. So I don't know if you feel the same way, but I'm both curious about where this is headed, but also really just grateful that we got to this little place right here. I want to sit with that. I hope people listening to this, whether they're driving or they're on a treadmill or in bed or wherever they are right now, can sit with that idea of, you know, how we. The machinations that we go through to build a world for one. It's just kind of shockingly true. And. And I want to. I want to lean into your book in a second here. So before we do that, I'm going to add one more book to the list of all the reading everybody's got to go do now. But if you. If you don't. If you're not familiar with the book, the Untethered Soul. It's been a while since I actually brought this up, but it's one of my favorite books of all time. Michael Singer. And man, does he ever lean into the thing that you're talking about or you're referencing, but he doesn't say it that way. And. And I just think what you just said is, again, you know, Socrates or Plato or somebody said all, you know, all. All. All we're doing is remembering anyway, so it's like, not like it's. I don't think there's any original thoughts. I think we're just. We forget. We remember. It's. It's.

Yeah, right.

But I love the way you just phrase that. So can you tell us. I want you to tell us more about your book. Does your book track this idea that you just brought up?

It does. And I do want to put a check mark next to your Untethered Soul recommendation. I mean, the goosebumps you're getting. The goosebumps I'm getting, it's because we understand what Michael Singer's trying to get out to the world with that book. If anybody's got control issues like crazy, please go read that book and it will set you free. And I think every executive, every executive should have that book next to their bed and just get familiar with that because our whole life is designed, trying to control, like, control. How do I control you and what you're going to say? And I didn't like what you say, so how do I control it more? And we get neurotic about control and it's screwing us up and it's hurting relationships left and right. And it makes us value only ourselves and not everything that's around us. And so it's such a heavy topic, but it's such an important one because this is our life with 7.999 billion people and souls floating around us. And so our book does touch it. If you are familiar with Untethered Soul and you're listening, it's really about extreme openness. Totally open, surrender, surrendering to everyone. The piece I think we take away from that is certainly the openness. I think openness is. Is really important. We define it this way in the book and it's the most important piece of the book. We define openness as listening without reservation, putting your needs and wants on pause for somebody else. That's openness. And the title of the book is no Honesty. So it's by design that it sounds like N O and the title has K N O W to no honesty. And the whole premise of the book is that there's two sides of communication and I think we're missing it in a big way. And I can't wait to hear your perspective on it. Open and honest gets thrown. Thrown around a lot in our country. Like, be open and honest with me. Be open and honest with me. And I think all we're really hearing is the word honest. Also, my book is. Has honesty on it. No, Openness is not the title of my book. And if it were, nobody would buy it. I think we're drawn to it and we're excited for honesty. We're drawn to. We're excited to share our perspectives, our wants Our desires, which is all very important, but the missing piece of the equation is openness. So how do we become both very open and very honest if we can do those two things? My gosh, we're unstoppable when it comes to communication. But we have totally screwed up this gift of communication. I could tell you exactly how I feel and exactly what I want, but I won't. I could do that to my wife. I could do it for my kids. How many times we are giving off missed, messed up signals to one another. And so we're really screwing up communication. And I would argue at a much faster pace than ever before. And so we just got to pull it back. And so this book to me is so important because what we're trying to do with it is change how the world communicates.

Yeah, I think it's a, that's a, A massive undertaking if I, if you don't mind my saying and glad that you're out, out there doing your part in that because I think communications at a, at a, at probably the lowest effective level. If there was some way to measure efficacy of communication, I would say this is the low point in my lifetime. I'm sure there was, you know, five, 600 years ago, maybe, maybe it was better. I don't know, maybe because you couldn't communicate with a lot of people. You can only communicate with the person in your, in your hut or in your, you know, in your village or whatever. And so. And you knew you didn't communicate well with the people that are in your hut or in your village. You're potentially outside the herd. And that was really dangerous. So I would imagine communication was pretty good back then. But, you know, I wasn't around, so I don't know, I would just say in my own lifetime, communication, this is the worst level of communic of effective communication that I've seen. And I'm not a communications major or, you know, I'm written on, on the topic, et cetera, but read a bunch of things. I remember a book called Dialogue. It's again, another, another book. Gosh, amazing how many books we've talked about already and, and the idea of just how fragmented we are and how much fragment, how much us and them. The concept of us and them is baked, is baked into our demeanor, our attitude, our approach to things, the silos that we create in business and in, outside of business. So I want to toss it back to you because I want to know if that is true, if what I'm saying has any, has any merit. At all. What do we, what do we do about it? What are you recommending, you know, for people that are working with other people in a business context or outside of that, however it is you want to frame it? What, what are some things that we can do to create a, make a change for the better? Because this, Yeah, I, I, I feel like we're on the wrong trajectory when it comes to effective communication.

Yeah, I love it. I think if degrees mattered still as much as they used to, given the work you do and the time spent on what you do, you would have 14 different degrees on communication. So I think you're well educated on the topic. If I'm just giving my humble opinion, if I tie it back to what are we going to do about it, I think we first have to see the problem. So I think the moment you had where you're like, wow, 7.99 billion people trying to design the world for themselves, we have to start seeing that in every social post we do where somebody aggressively disagrees with us and wants to fry us, even though they have not investigated us or understood where we're coming from or how many people in my cabinet or in my team have talked about and researched and studied the topic, yet they'll just want to fry you immediately and then disappear. Not to receive any conflict back. I mean, that's just one example that we're all familiar with, which wasn't a thing 20 years ago, at least not to the degree it is now. And I think what's been peddled on us for the last 15 to 20 years. Let me just give you some descriptives of what's been peddled on us. How important it is to be your authentic self. So it's been pushed very hard. Still is vulnerability. You need to be vulnerable. Power of Vulnerability by Brene Brown. Brilliant. Identity, your identity, who you are, what you are. So all this has been pushed on us. And I'm not saying those are bad things. I'm just saying that that's half of the equation. What is not being peddled on us is how important it is to be open to the perspectives, indifferences right around you. How important it is to listen without reservation, how important it is to listen to a disagreement and seek to understand where that person came from, what shoes they walked in, what heartaches they had in life. That's not taught, it's not pushed, it's not sexy. And so we're constantly serving our ego and it's making us really lonely creatures. There's a reason we're The Most Lonely Generation coming up. Um, Anxious Generation by Jonathan Hayt is a brilliant book that presses upon this in many ways, too. And everything is getting pointed at this. And so what we have to do to combat this is we got to educate people. Educate, educate, educate. So I don't know how you were raised. I don't know your full background when you were raised, but I do this in talks all the time. I say, hey, how many of you were taught the importance, now that you know the definitions I give of honesty and openness? How many of you were in grade school and that was taught to you that that was important, that you're honest all the time and that you're open all the time? One out of 30 people raise their hand. So one out of 30 and they say, in high school, how many of you were taught that no hands? How many of you in college? Well, maybe about three out of 30 people because they took a communications class or some sort of class that helped to teach this, or a philosophy class. And then I go, how many of you were taught this at your company? How important it is to be honest and open? Back and forth, no hands. Unless they've worked with us or somebody else that's teaching something similar. And so I said, well, let's take a look at your onboarding. For instance, what do you teach in your onboarding? Well, here's your process. Here's how you collect your check. Here's the people you need to know. Here's where the company came from. Was anything in your onboarding about teaching you how to communicate effectively? No. My gosh, where is it? It's totally missing from being educated to people. This is the problem we're up against. And so, in my humble way, with this huge mission to change how the world communicates, we've put out a book, we put out workshops, way to measures, measure people's openness and honesty. So we're doing everything we can. We just put up a billboard that's making a bit of a splash in our town. We're doing everything we can to. To just help people understand how important it is to be honest and open in nearly everything you do.

Yeah, I feel like. So I was thinking it, and. And I put my own wants and needs aside for a second because I really wanted. I really wanted to listen, and I also. And I wanted to learn. And then you also said something that I was thinking, and I thought, oh, that's. That's really interesting. I mean, if there's there. I don't know, when the bells you know, ring in your head. But the bells ring in my head when I, I sense that there's, there's a. Not synergy, but, but like a. Oh gosh, when there is this coherence that when, when the two fragments or the, the seemingly like there's you and then there's me and we're separate, but in the moment when I feel like we were one. And that's happened several times since we've gotten on this, this, you know, this little podcast here. And I hope people aren't going, what, what, what what? I mean, like, for real, we don't know each other. We never spoke before. This is like new, you know, and you go, how do you communicate with somebody? How do you have a conversation with somebody you don't, you don't know you. That you never spoke to before? And yeah, okay, it's the art form and we're experienced at doing it and all that kind of yada, yada stuff. But the truth is you don't get, you don't have those moments where you feel one or that oneness when you come those two different things, but, but feel that coherence happen. That is, that is special. And I'm on. Acknowledge it in this moment and be grateful for it. And I think that's what we can seek. And there's a way to, there's a way to get there that doesn't have to be. It's not, It's a miracle, but it doesn't have to be a miracle. It doesn't have to be abnormal or unusual or outside the bell curve, because that's what I'm getting from you is a way to, to create this, to be manifesting this in your communications, your personal ones, of course, but, but in those ones that are so vitally important in, in the work you do and the work you do in the world. Like, so I want to know more about that. Of course. And, and, and I want to know more from you about, about this, about the ego. Because that was the thing I was thinking when you were saying it was that this is almost like how do we. We've created unwittingly a. In the guise of being. In empowering our kids. Right. Cause I, I grew up and, and I didn't get a lot of this in my, you know, in my demographic, we didn that be authentic. Nobody ever said that to us. Be, you know, like, create boundaries, set boundaries. Do. Do you know these things? I forget what's one or two of the other things you mentioned, but those didn't ring true for me growing up, certainly people didn't say be open. Yeah, honesty I think is a thing. You know, like I've heard that be honest, tell the truth kind of thing. But the openness, open heartedness or that kind of thing. But then as we became parents and we wanted more for, for our kids and, and consciousness is rising and that's the good news across the board, folks. I think, you know, if you're ever just got to be so half glasses, half empty, just know that consciousness is expanding. We're evolving. That's, that's good for the species, you know, hopefully good for all of, you know, for everybody listening this too. But, but in that expansion of consciousness, we're trying to give people more, more freedom and more empowerment. But at some point, ironically, in empowering kids, in empowering people now young people, now people in their teens and 20s and 30s. And I'm past that, but in empowering them, it feels like there's a lot of ego that was also enabled and almost enhanced. And the ego is really tough to grapple with in all of us. So you want to, do you want to tell us a little bit more about like, so if you're going to help people to communicate better, on some level you're, you're also helping them to conquer their ego control, like get a. Become more aware, self aware of their, of the place where their ego is actually the thing that's driving the, driving the bus off a cliff.

Right. Yeah. It's great. I wish you could just keep going. I've enjoyed listening to you. This is great. And I want you to push back. I'm not the ego expert, so I, so I've not done a bunch of deep work on ego. I understand it. I get the gist. We talk about it a little bit in the, in the book. I'm not trying to turn ego off. You can't turn it off.

So hold on a second. I'm going to conference in Eckhart Tolle. All right. I'll just bring him into the three way here and we'll.

Okay, good.

Go ahead, get him in there. If we, if we could actually understand what he was saying, you know.

Yeah. So ego's everywhere. I think ego is okay, but it's just, it's just half of the equation and, and the other half is other people. That's it. Let's, let's just make communication. That I think honesty to me, and I'm not sure I defined it earlier, but it's, it's being truly and freely Yourself speaking into what you want and how you feel. If you ask me, that's the ego running rampant, right? Just whatever the ego is thinking, it's saying. And I think it's fine, I really do. And actually, if I, if I'm working with a client, I want that. I want you as naked and raw as you can be. Let your freak flag fly. I don't care what comes out of your mouth. I'm seeking to understand it. I will not judge you. I'm going to hold back reservation. I'm going to seek to understand where you're coming from, what you're saying. So go ahead and have your spot and let your ego run. But when it's my time, when it's my turn, I just ask that you do the same. Let mine run rampant and just be open to me and listen to me without reservation and let's have this exchange back and forth and back and forth. And my gosh, how much more understanding we're going to have of one another. We might actually appreciate one another instead of trying to hold our ground already pre populating thoughts in our head as the other one is talking, let's turn that off and just totally be present for the other person. And so I think because of this, I don't really put much emphasis on ego. I mean, let it go, let it go. So long as you're willing to agree that we're going to communicate in this style, that you will be totally open to me when I'm speaking, and then when you're speaking, I'm going to be totally open to you. And if we're back and forth, open and honest, it's great how much we're going to accomplish, accomplish is going to be great how deep our relationship can go. Right now it's deepening because I believe you have this gift. You can't be a great podcaster without incredible listening skills, right? And turning off all that judgment and reservation. And so you already have this and then coming back and hopefully you are, and I think you are, which is why your podcast is attractive. I think you're on us right back. And people can, can totally sense when you're fake, when you're faking it, you're skirting it. And this ego or this truly and freely you is trying to come out, but it won't. People sense it and they, they're not real comfortable with it. And I think what we love are characters and freaks as they are, mostly. So we need more education on this, we need way more practice on all this. So that we can get along with 8 billion egos floating around this world.

Yeah, that's. That's really interesting to me because you're right, the ego is not going to go away. And there is, you know, and at the same time I'm thinking, so you invited me to push back and I'm thinking about that too. Because if we're. If. And I'm going to go back to one of the first things you said, which is just so want to repeat is the. The idea that we're building a world for one, that we live. We live with 7.9999 billion people. Other people in the world, but we're building a world for one. And how often that is the case. And, And I guess I'm. I'm assigning a certain amount of blame or judgment around. Around the ego because I know that for me, when my ego is. Is really getting its way and it's the thing I'm listening to or it's the thing that's in charge of the. And I'm not even. There's no listening involved. It sort of runs on that. On default. My life. My life really is. It's different. And I don't notice it. I don't catch it sometimes. It's literally like I'm mixing up all these metaphors. But it's like, you know, the, The. The farm animals, you know, like they're. They're literally. The gate is the. You know, the door is open, the barn door, you know, and they're just like running wild. And then I catch it. But the good news is that when it comes to your own ego, it's really easy to corral the animals back and get them, you know, back in. Back in the barn, so to speak. When you become aware that's. I think that's. That's miraculous. But the ego by itself, running rampant is just. It's a me show. It's all about I. And I don't. And I don't think that's what you're saying, so please help me.

Yeah, I think I am. I think I'm okay with the me show so long as you're gonna let it be my me show in a moment. So that's okay. I just don't need you.

Does the ego allow that? As I'm interrupting?

It can. It can. It can. 100%. So we have this. We have this assessment. So we measure people's honesty and openness. It's called the pursuit of honesty. Assessment. Take. It's for free. Probably will be for another year or so. And we, we're just collecting this data on people, and people are across the board, more honest than they are open. So that is consistent. And we break down this study into. So you'll get results. You go take it. You'll get results, and it'll show you how honest and open you are in your personal life and in your work life, which is so interesting because people have so many different dynamics in their life that change this. So they may go home, they're way less honest and way more open. And they go to work, they wear way more honest than they are open. And so it's this interesting study, but I. That we're doing still, and it's incredible the data that's coming from it. Honesty and openness go hand in hand when it comes to communication. Knowing that we have an imbalance of honesty over openness, we're screwing up our communication. So if you multiply the percentage amount of time you're honest and the percentage of time you're open, you're going to find the gap in between and how much communication is really being exchanged between two people. Real communication, at least. And so I, for me, I think when people are really leaning into their ego, I think it's great. And then when people learn and you talked about awareness, when you're aware that your ego is running rampant, I do think in the book, we do give it a title. We call it the Wall. So now it's my turn to speak my me show. We should trademark that me show. Something about that's cool. And so I'm giving you the me show. And you're listening without reservation right now. But as soon as your mind starts drifting and you're like, I'm not sure I believe this guy. Like, where is it? What's his religion? Where did he come from? Like, but that's kind of messed up. All of a sudden you're putting a wall up. Like, you're starting to create a divide between you and me now you're no longer in my head. You're no longer interested in the shoes where I come. And so there's going to be more of a divide. And what we're doing now in the time frame we're living in.

And that's where the aperture of openness, that's where you're no longer being open. I just want to put that parenthetical in there for folks. Yeah, thank you.

Yes, yes. You're no longer open. Right. You're closing off so you can serve self and you're not there for somebody else. And I would say there's this one story, and I'm not sure it's going to hit, but for whatever reason, it hit for me. This guy works at a manufacturing plant and he's stamping, whatever he's stamping, and that's his job, 40, 50 hours a week. And the CEO comes down. Big company, it's got all the people around him that are taking notes and doing the thing. And he walks up to this person who's stamping all that stuff for 4,050 hours a week. And that, that worker stops and there's the CEO. And this is kind of a unique moment, both of them. And the CEO walks up and he blocks everything to be totally present with that manufacturer to the person who's working on that line. He's totally present for him. And he says, yeah, how's it going? Guy shares. He says, oh, really, it must be hard for you. Totally present. He's got all these other people trying to vie for his attention, but he's there for that worker. And I just, I picture that every time I'm in a conversation. And I think how that worker must have felt. The most important person in the company is that worker in that moment with that CEO. It's such a cool story. And I'm like, if we had that kind of openness when somebody else is speaking, my gosh, your relationships are so deep, your trust can really excel. That's what we're after.

Yeah. The story for me, just completely changing the context because we both, you and I both are organizations, work with other organizations. We're always in the business context. Why? I'll change this one up for a second. I'm lucky enough. My wife and I met College, married 35 years. This is like the literally the greatest blessing I could even ever imagine for a lot of reasons. But one of those reasons is we had, we had some children. Those kids have grown up healthy and leaving, leading good lives and all that kind of thing, leaving our home, leading good lives. And now they have kids, little ones, very little ones. So we have these three little, little ones and, and, and the oldest of those little ones is three. And then, and then the next is like 18 months, and then we're down to like, you know, eight months. So this 18 month old who I get to spend time with all three of them, but this one in particular, she loves to involve me in her games, in the things that she's doing. And honestly, when I'm with her, I am, as you just described Only present. I can. And anybody that knows this from their own kids, their grandkids, from other people's kids, from whatever, like watching, seeing kids, you understand that kids, they just, there's no, they don't tolerate you not being present. They'll just move on. They just know immediately. They know if you're not with them, if you're not there actually really with them. And, and she involves me in her world and I, I'm just, I'm there participating in it in a way that I imagine, as you just said, CEO suspended. All the things going on in his or her world, to just be there in the world of that person that they were in front of. And that's what I get regular practice at doing personally with, with these little ones that are around because again, you know, immediately, if you, if you divert your eyes, if you look at your phone, if you, you think you're fooling them by, you know, check in the text message while you're also playing tea party, they don't have to call bullshit.

That's right.

All their body language tells you that's bullshit. Right? So it's like, hello, you know, we have a lot of examples around us of what you're talking about. And so it doesn't, I don't really. I feel like this is so vitally important, yet look like so many great paradoxes in life. It is, it is not. This is not really difficult.

A hundred percent. That's. It's simple. Your story, your story gives me chills because I got two little ones, I got a five and a seven year old and I screw up presence with them all the time. You know, I'm not, I'm not leaning into my own openness, so to speak. And, and when I do, it just feels kind of empty and sad. You know, it's like I'm just shunning my own child for, you know, I have a little moment for myself when they're begging for you, they just want you in their life so bad. And so if anything, you're gonna inspire me to be very present with my kids when I get home. And so great, great example. It's not, it's not difficult. The equation is open plus honest equals real communication. And we just got to get a little bit better at recognizing awareness. Your word. Love that when we're not being truly and freely ourselves. So if we're not being honest, well, what are we being? We're being fake.

Fake.

Who in this world raises their hand, says I want to be fake as much as possible? Nobody. And so what we're talking about here is just lean in and be more truly and freely you. The challenge will be that there are people in your life that won't accept that there are people that do not subscribe to this equation. And I don't blame them for it. I'm not upset with anybody in my life that doesn't like who I truly and freely am. I just know that they haven't been educated on the subject or not enough or haven't seen how it can really hurt somebody to not allow somebody to have the freedom to be truly and freely who they are in that moment. And so I'm just like, we got to educate people on it. And then openness, the other side of it, when you're not being open, you have a wall up of some sorts. Politics, religion, sex. Think of all the heated topics you can, taboo topics, and just go ahead and test your wall with somebody else. Just test it. And really, instead of trying to win the conversation, just seek to understand the other person's perspective. Listen without reservation and push that wall down and see how much more you enjoy life. Because you're not trying to control every little element and variable and equation around you. You're just totally present for somebody else, some other soul trying to navigate this journey of life as well. When you do that and you minimize the need for this neurotic control all the time, you're going to be such a happier person, just like I will be when I'm totally present for my two kids tonight.

Oh, my goodness. Way cool, brother. Way cool. And, and look, it's, you know, I think we need to give ourselves grace as well. Forgiveness too, when, when we, we're, you know, kind of. I'm falling off that, that, whatever. Whatever that, that, you know, that purchase that. That's easy to say. How. You know, what it looks like to be on. On a. On a higher plane of consciousness or awareness. And yet falling off is, is. I think it's part of it. I'm not, I'm trying not to judge myself too harshly for falling off. Where I'm working personally is how to get back. How to get back into that state more quickly.

Yeah.

And not have it be so long. The length of time between those moments where I feel like, okay, you know, I am. I am showing up the way I want to show up. So. And when you're working, look, when you're creating a life. So I'll just go back to that point when I was a lawyer and I, My wife and I, we were out of college and jobs. We each had two to three jobs and she was a teacher and had another second, third job and I was a teacher to at a point and then went back to school. Like, you know, we're just trying to make a life for ourselves being, you know, having, having, having the time. The perception of time to be present I think is, is a challenge. I know if people are listening to this going, this all sounds great except that, you know, I also have a boss breathing down my neck for KPIs to be met, letting my freak flag fly and allowing another person to have their freak flag moment and all that. It's like I don't know where the time is for, for that to happen. And I applaud people for thinking that, you know, like bringing that right to the surface. Because if you don't, you don't, you know, like it's sales one on one, you better handle the objections. Like better you handle the objections than the person who's having them is, is going to have those objections because you're not going to make a sale. So, you know, I think we need to handle the objections and raise them, including the one that, that centers around time. And I don't know that we need to do that now. If you have some thoughts on it, I'm, I'm open for us to, to, to do that too. But I do think it's something that's worth, is worth, you know, sort of getting. Wrapping your brain around because you're working, you know, the way you're working and in your wife is. And, and it's, it's. It's understandable if you didn't have the time the way I have. Let's say when my kids are raised and out of the house, I'm in a different, I'm literally in a different phase of life than you are. And that's, that's okay to recognize that, you know, that's, that's a thing. And yet, you know, what's our view of time and how do we, how do we manage time more effectively to potentially give ourselves more of those moments? That's I think, something we could lean into because that's also possible.

Sure. There's a tool called the agreement or a practice we call the agreement. So I'll share that with you and it's going to sound very familiar. And so it's one that you can apply everywhere in your life. Everywhere, all the time, as much as you want to and watch what it does for you. I'll use the Sales. The sales one's good, or an employee that, you know isn't meeting KPIs or whatever. So I think about my own employees when that's happening, and what I want for them to do is I want them, if they are not meeting their KPIs, to be truly and freely themselves. I want them to be really clear on what's up. Don't like it? You don't like that I'm giving you pressure? Does that upset you? Why does that upset you? What's not working with your KPIs? I mean, let it rip. And I'm. I'm totally going to hear you out. I promise you. I'm going to be open to. But here's the deal. I'm going to be honest back at you, and I say you'd be totally open to me. And I think because of this kind of dialogue, we are going to navigate this particular issue very quickly. You know, work and personal life are very different. To me, they're modes. You know, I'm in performance mode at work. I mean, that's just the mode I turn on, right? Like an athlete. But LeBron James isn't out there like somebody who sits on the couch eating popcorn and chumming it up with his friends. And that guy's out there to perform, to achieve, to produce. So work in personal life are a little bit different. So at work, I'm just simply trying to get my employees and myself in the right mode. And so why aren't we producing? Why aren't we achieving? And they can say whatever they want to. I don't even care. They can cuss me out if they want to. I'd rather understand that than them having a thought in the back of their head that they're already thinking. That isn't on the table for me to work with at all. And so, you know, almost radical transparency, if you will, or radical honesty, radical openness, all of it. And. And then the richness of the solve is so much better when they're honest about whatever it is and I'm honest back at them and they're totally open to it, which is hard to do. But here, this is what we do. This is what we train on all the time. And so if you could see us navigate issues, you know, I'd like to think we're modeling it pretty well. And we.

I was going to ask you whether, if we surveyed your employees, would they. Would they say that you guys are. Are, you know, 8 out of 10, 9 out of 10, 10 out of 10. In terms of eating your own cooking.

It'S way up there.

It's way up there.

I'll tell you. It's way up there. I know that. Go ahead, survey them. You can survey them.

All right, we'll have to do a part two of this podcast then. And I'll also say to our listeners right now too, that, that in terms of just getting links to the assessment that. That Ken mentioned earlier, as well as more information about the book and the. And the organization and its work in the world, we have show notes for that. But nohonesty.com is the website and there's a lot of really great, valuable resources. I've been on that side. I've seen it. Very cool stuff. And it'll be in the show notes as well, Ken, because I think everybody should take that assessment. We use assessment tools as well, and they're really effective. And I just have a sense without knowing it for sure, because I haven't used your assessment. I just have a sense that it's. It's a similar. A similar sort of philosophy around. Around that assessment thing. There's a lot of assessments that are being used that I think just don't really. They don't really get the job done. They're too broad, too sort of the. The. They show the cards. They're too. What is it? Predictable. And the responses are often really predictable as well, versus shorter things that are more pinpointed at getting people to be transparent. To use that word you said just a moment ago. So in any event, I just have so loved this conversation and I would love to have a part two of it, but I want to give you. Also I would love to find out if there are any sort of loose ends or hanging chads or open loops that you want to close as we close out the conversation, at least for the moment.

I'm blessed to know you. I think our connection, all this is just too improbable to be coincidence. And so I'm blessed to know you. I'll leave you that. There's so much more we could talk about and lean into. Let's do it in the next one. But this has been great for me, so I appreciate you.

Thank you. Ken, I want to ask you one per more personal question, if I might. You got it. You got a couple of more minutes for me?

Yeah, let's go. Let's squeeze it out.

I love it. So our. Our focus is often on. On how we create resiliency and ultimately what. What either depletes a person's reserves of Resilience or actually adds to it, because some of what you're talking about, I mean, there's no question that we. We've got a beautiful Venn diagram because when communication is good, like the kind of communication I think that you and I have been having, especially not knowing each other, to me, what that's like, it adds to my tank. I feel on an emotional level, on a. On a physical level, on a mental level, spiritual level, every. In those zones of resiliency, I feel like I've been elevated. This. Your presence today has been an elevating experience for me. And yet we also know that in communications with people, often it's the opposite. I feel less. Something's been taken away. I feel like my energy has been sucked out, you know, like, and there's those experiences. So I want to just get your. Your take on how you develop resiliency or, or if you're thinking about that at all, if there are rituals or things that you do that add to the tank that fill you with energy and, and clearly good communication must be one of them.

It is. It is openness, listening without reservation, putting your needs and wants on pause for somebody else. Right. That's the definition to me is also an ability to absorb reality as it is. I think we have lost our ability to absorb reality. And what we might choose to do is just shut it off, turn it off, walk away, avoid it. Therefore, not built building any resiliency at all. And so I think we need to lean into it and to tie it all the way back to the beginning is get comfortable being uncomfortable more and you will build deep roots in the tree that is you if you do that.

I just literally love that answer. And with that, I will invite our. Our community to comment. Leave. Leave a comment. You go to AdamMarkel.com podcast to leave a comment there and. And I'll just express again, gratitude for those of you that have taken the time because it does take time to go to the platform where you consume this podcast and give it a rating. Three star, four star, five star. I mean, look, the stars matter. It helps the algorithm to help us. It helps us to grow our community. And I, I would be really remiss if I didn't say thank you for doing that and also to implore you to do that for us if you wouldn't mind. And of course, if you've got a friend, a family member, somebody, a colleague that would benefit from this conversation, please feel free to share the link to it and let. Let somebody else enjoy just the wisdom that Ken shared with us today. Ken, you have been a blast buddy, and I'm really glad to know you. And I am looking forward to doing this again with you sometime really, really soon. So thank you again.

All right, back at you.

Well, you tell me through your comments and in responses just what you thought of this, this episode, whether it meets the standard, the bar that I set at the very outset in the introduction, standard of heightened awareness, heightened enlightenment, even the opportunity to seek enlightenment through the words and insights that Ken shared with us today. I, I know that I, I feel elevated. I really do. I said that to Ken in the episode toward the end, that just my energy and my presence, my. My attention in the moment of being with him, listening to his perspective and then vibing, you know, having that conversation, not just listening, but being in dialogue with him, was just such a. A welcome and wonderful experience. Really, really positive. And I hope you feel that or felt that as well, and that you're. You're willing to think about where it is that you could be in presence and communicate at a level of presence with another human being today. Where can you be fully open and honest in your communication with someone today and really enjoy their presence and being in their company? Where at work is that possible? Among your. Your colleagues? Where. Where at home or in your personal life is that possible in and among the people you see all the time or that are part of your family or your. Or your network of friends, where is that possible outside of TikTok or Instagram or any of the other social platforms that we communicate on so frequently? That's a question. No answer here other than just to a recommendation that you. You seek that out. And I truly believe that when you seek, you find. I think that there, there, there, these are truly reciprocal, the relationship between them. So. But we have to seek in order to find.

There's.

There's that aspect of it as well. So I hope, I hope that you will take this as a call to action to do that. I have so enjoyed this time being in the seat today for the Change Proof podcast. I hope you've loved it as well. And again, we'd love to hear from you. For now, anyway, I will just say thank you and ciao.

Thanks for listening. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build resilience and become change Proof. Remember to leave a review on Apple Podcasts and you may be featured in an upcoming episode. For more resilience tips and strategies, including support for building Change proof teams, visit AdamMarkel.com to get your own free Resilience assistance assessment, go to rankmyresilience.com.