Understanding And Embracing Your Play Type With Elaine Chung

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markell and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change.

Proof.

Well, I've got another episode of the Change Proof podcast for you, so welcome. I'm Adam Markel and today I have an amazing guest. Her name is Elaine Chung. She is a play expert and founder of my Play Type who is on a mission to supercharge how we all embrace and integrate play every day. With her background in team psychology and organizational behavior, combined with her corporate leadership experiences, she helps form Fortune 500 companies, unlock impact, drive innovation, and nurture deep collaboration. She's seen how integrating play neuroscience and understanding your play type can empower people to thrive and overcome the most challenging problems with more joy. Welcome to the show, Elaine Chung. Okay, Elaine, I love your bio. Actually, I read these pretty regularly for the show, of course, and then I get to hear my own bio being read by other people. But yours is, there's, there's really, really interesting. There's a lot that I want to dig into from that. But first my question to you is what's, what's something that's not part of this bio? What's one thing not part of the bio that you would love for people to know about you?

Well, when I am not talking about play, I'm fully embracing play and being at play. So every discovery moment I'm trying to discover things and also staying physical. So if there's anybody who is, happens to be on the peloton, I'm at recharge mom and I would love to team ride.

Oh, that's so cool. I love that. Yeah, you know, it's so interesting. I'm in a very, I'm in a very play filled time of my life.

Excellent.

I'll explain to, to our listeners here for a second. So we've, we've had the blessing of grandchildren over the last couple of years. Actually now we have two and one more that's on the way, which is ridiculously exciting. And our oldest grandchild is, is a little boy and he's two, two, almost two and a half now. So we are playing from like 7am in the morning until 7pm I won't kid you into thinking that we're constantly in play because we're not. We get hours of the day here and there where that's just what's going on because for a two year old their life is just play. It's literally just one play thing after another. And it's me personally, I have gotten very much into tennis after so many years of having not played. I played in high school and then just, you know, went into a different arena when I was in college and stuff and, and I'm so, I'm just so embracing of, of all the fun of running around on a tennis court, you know, and I, you know, have my moments and whatnot but. And I'm competitive to be sure, but it's just so fun to just run around on a, on a tennis court and get good and hot and sweaty. You know what I'm talking about? Right? So. So let's dig into what play means to you. So I gave a couple of tangible examples where.

Yeah, no, those are fabulous ones. And I think one, you know, oftentimes play can just be associated with kids or even running outside. But if you really drill down to it, you even from your tennis side of it, you are having the bravery to try. You're learning new things, you're improving. Like you're seeing that growth that is play. Like that's what that two year old is learning. Like oh, when I touch this, it does that or if I do this, you know, grandpa reacts this way. Like those are the things they're also experimenting with. And you're able to replicate that in the play of tennis. And what I've seen too, like in company environments, there's opportunities to play even within that and understanding and creating those environments too. I think when kids are little and they have all the parents and grandparents around, we actually do create a very nurturing environment to invite that kind of like low risk taking exploration as a community, you know, tight community together. And as we get to be adults and get into the work environment and maybe some societal norms that might start shaping how may we may react. Some of that closes down and I've seen that firsthand of just how it closes down and opening it back up of like experimentation, how we're doing it together. You can really solve hard problems in that way and still have much more joy because you're like connected. You're not just doing it just because I have to or because that's not play doing something you have to from that regard. So I think that's where there's multiple angles in which I can see play in that really is rooted from the two year old. Like I know we talked a little bit about just how they're Able to bring back awe and understanding and that exploration. And how for adults too, like when we are able to include that in more. Just how much more energized we feel. I'm like, you even described it with the tennis, right? Like, you just feel more connected and energized and feel good. Yes. The sweaty part is great. The, the moving, all the physical, like endorphins that are going on, but you are also growing in your own mental strength. And that is around the neuroscience of play because the more you repeat it, those pathways continue to stay connected.

Yeah, so I want to. I want to dig into this. You know, when it comes to the corporate world where you and I both practice, we work a lot, not only in leading companies that, that we're a part of, but also in. In acting in a sort of consultative way or, you know, in an advisory role in. Inside of organizations large and small, what we see are people who are not having a lot of fun. I want to kind of be blunt about it. In, you know, they're. So I wanna. I wanna get a sense of where this integrates and how, you know, how you present it and how people also receive it. Because, I mean, look, if you ask employees whether they'd like to have fun in their work, they'd say, sure, we'd love to now just change the nature of my work and then I might have some fun doing. Right.

But it doesn't work that way.

But it doesn't work that way. So. So how does it work?

Yeah, yeah. So there's, I think, multiple layers within it. I think that first just connecting with the kind of examp. What may tend to happen of like, oh, if you just change everything, it'll be better. The fundamental part for that employee is actually finding out and thinking about where are they at their best. Right. Like, where are they really when they're thriving in the kid play zone? It's called flow. Right. Like you can certain kids, depending on their play type, which I. That's the root of all of this, actually started with kids, was actually understanding how kids play and relating that to their personality. Because we were like ethologists as parents, like observing in their natural state in play what they were doing. So a LEGO player isn't just a LEGO player. There are some LEGO players that really need the instructions. There are other ones that just build something to crash something. There are other ones that just want the figurines. Right. And really tapping into an understanding of what that is for you as an adult is really critical. So you can Be in the business sense. And you're like, hey, look, I thrive actually in Excel sheets. That's, this was one for me. And you wouldn't think that initially, but it's because of that discovery, that exploration that I can do with the different levers, the research that I have to do behind it to even understand, like, okay, this means this percent would be applicable of the population and not the other percent. That investigation, investigative nature is what I thrive in. And so thinking back to yourself, if you're the employee, where are the areas that you thrive? Who's really around you? What type of work are you doing? Are you inside, are you outside, are you sitting? Who. Who are you around are really critical components to bring that joy and to bring that playfulness because you really will feel at play when you're doing those. Even though it's for work, right? Even though it's for a company. But it's important to tap into those because, you know, I recently read an article where it was like the number one regret of life was that they didn't have the courage to live a life their own. And if you're just kind of like roboting through the day, you aren't really living a life your own. So you, you should like, try, just try. And that's one of the big things that kids do, is like, they have the bravery to try. Like, if us as adults learn to walk now and felt as many times as that 1 year old did, or even that, you know, some 9 to 10 months old do, we would not get up at all. So really tapping into that little kid, it's so good that you have grandkids just around you just to help spark that inspiration even more. Right, right in front of you. That's why I think it's just so magical about kids. And you know, I have my young kids myself is just tapping into that side of it when I'm feeling maybe a little bit down or a little bit lost, like, okay, no, no, no. Like what would they would do, what would they do in this situation? All right, they would actually try it out, find out what, what they like and, and just keep that. So that's one of the main, I think, components from that sense. Another sense though, like when we look at the employer in the organization setting, just how I describe, like in families, we kind of create some of these things that, that makes the kid feel safe. And it's not, doesn't just happen like once in a while. It's consistent, right? It's consistent that they know that they're safe that they can do this, they can try this. That's why they melt down at the end of the day. Only to the parents. They hold it all together at school, but only to the parents or to their family. So this creation, like if you really want deep collaboration, you've got to create that within the organization as well. And that is creating that play nurturing environment. And it can be bite sized. It doesn't have to be like, hey, we're all play all the time. Like play actually isn't all loud, right? Play is really creating these environments where you're genuinely curious. Like, you know, the kids ask like gazillion questions, right? And but they're not asking to one up anybody or to prove that they're smarter. They're actually asking to fundamentally understand like what are the interconnections, the causes. And so if we all kind of approach our conversations from that realm, that's a start. Like within an organization, genuine curiosity and creating moments secondly of like trying. And in companies it can be hard to kind of think of it as oh, we're just going to, we're going to just try everything. It's just a whimsical kind of attitude. But it's not, it's so, so it's like develop a low risk situation to even make it bite size for your organization, for your team. Especially if it is an organization where there's not much trust, they'll want something real low risk and bite size. And it can be as simple as I think one, one group I had recommended just based on their virtual regional standpoint is like, how about you all just choose one cafe to meet up once a month just to not be virtual anymore. But you're kind of like in the same city. Meet up once a month and just rotate, rotate who chooses the place because one, your bravery is something new. Low risk, right? And then two, exploring together. I think that's such a critical component of embedding that togetherness that play naturally. Like when kids are playing it's so like they don't even think of it as like, oh yes, I'm including this and I'm click no there. It's all embedded within it. And for adults we, we have to craft that a little bit more because as our brains grow, the kind of play neuronal paths, they kind of disappear. So that's why there's this Dr. Land, he did one for NASA and it was a creativity test. And what it showed was that in essence, five year olds are more creative than the astronauts. That they hired and it goes back to the brain. Because when you look at a kid's brain especially, I'll go go back to the inspiration right now of that two year old brain grandkid. They have so many neuronal paths growing and it's like as we age, as we get older, the ones that happen the most, they get solidified. The ones that don't happen the most, they slowly get pruned away. So they do as adults. Yeah. Yep. So it's like those roads are gone. So as adults though, if we want to try to shape it in a different way, we need to recreate that pathway. But you don't just create it once, you have to keep embedding that in daily practice. Now it's the same thing as we think of it as an organization because an organization is made up of people, right? Like each individual person. So it can't just be an annual event. Like I think, you know, some clients are like, well we are, we have a team event. I'm like, but what do your leaders do on a daily basis, on a weekly basis, on each interaction they have with their employee? And does that link up with the type of culture that you want to build? Because if you don't have that, it won't happen. It just won't happen. And it go back, it goes back to the whole brain side of it. Like we want to recreate it where it's like you don't even think about it. And you know, like, I'm going to do this way, I'm going to include it this way. Here's how I'm going to embed other divergent thinking and make it feel safe for the team because we, we can't just say I'm going to make it safe and make a proclamation. When has that ever worked? So I know I just said a lot, so.

No, no, I just, I mean I've taken notes because I, there are some things I want to circle back to. So thank you for doing that. The let's. You said kids, they, they are willing to, to try. You know, they're brave, they bravely try things and, and adults generally don't. So is there a. And then you, I think answered part of my question which was you said that those play neuropathways, the, that are, are very much being used when, when you're a five year old, when they're not being used, they over time sort of dissipate or atrophy or whatever the right, you know, way to see it is. And part of Your work in the world is to help to, to get people back to a place where they can play more and connect and collaborate more effectively. I want to understand the relationship between connection and collaboration between those things. And I also want to understand if somebody hasn't been playing for many, many years, you know, like as part of the, the bulk of their, what their experience of living is, how hard is it to, to reintroduce, I mean, to create a new neural pathway for something that someone has not been actively engaged in doing. It must be difficult. I'd love to just understand a little bit more about what that looks like.

Yeah. When you're working easier than you may first think. But I'll answer the first one first about connection and collaboration.

Yes.

You know, when we think of collaboration, on the surface, it's like people talking together, solving a problem. But when we take another step deeper, it is like feeling the urgency of the problem solve, feeling that how to think about the ideas more differently to solve a hard problem. Because when you are not in an environment. So if we take the other side of like if we are not in an environment where we feel safe to share a wild idea just because we're trying to figure something out, or we're sharing an idea where we know we don't have all the facts, but here's what it could lead to, but helping that to be the starting point. If we don't have true connection, it won't feel safe. It won't feel safe to offer the idea, it won't feel safe to iterate on the idea. And so therefore you won't have deep collaboration and consistent collaboration. I think that's a key component of it. I was talking to another executive leader who is trying to connect and trying to change the environment. But as we peel back the layers of what's in that environment, it's not one person saying let's play together. In essence, it doesn't work that way. So we had to really unpack all these other components of it. And some of it is even to the point of the other leaders that are within organization and understanding the political pools that may be there, but you have to be aware of them then to navigate that. So then what is again lower risk, safe space to just get started, to just start it.

What I'm hearing is that to use a term that people are familiar with these days, that in creating psychologically a safe environment and that an environment where people can connect in a, in a fun way, maybe even in a little bit of a competitive way, but Ultimately, in, in a way that, that is more creative that, that that creates this deeper collaboration or an opportunity for deeper collaboration. Because now people can fail together. They can be, you know, they can do experimenting together. They're exploring exact. Without fear of judgment or of, you know, reprisal.

A lot of that happens as we get older. You know, like we have all those societal, cultural, even familial like, or even your friends, like all these different constraints that can really mold what we're afraid of or not afraid of. And I think just to go back to the psychological safety side, I think one big thing to remember that leaders should always remember too, there's not one box or one flavor of psychological safety that fits everybody. And so to understand the gradations of your own team members or just being receptive to that is really important because you may really be crafting a psychological safe place. And I've, I've seen this happen where a leader will say, we're going to brainstorm. I'm going to whiteboard. And like some, that statement is enough. Others, if all that her other actions or his other actions don't suffice to support that side of that it's safe to brainstorm. Doesn't work for them. It doesn't work.

Right. Because there's still that moment where for me, it brings me back to being in third grade and being in the classroom and at least my memory of that experience was that to raise your hand and have the wrong answer or to ask a question that seemed to give away the fact that you didn't know, you didn't know what you're talking, you know, like, you didn't. You, you were like, less smart than other kids that were pretending to be smarter than they were or, you know, whatever, you know, that in that environment, I was very unsafe in that environment. There was like judgment from those around as well as even from the teacher, which was really the, the issue.

Right.

The issue in my third, third grade experience. So, so that's, that's, I'm, I'm curious there too. So what, what, what's an example of ways that you can help leaders to play and, and experience and have this connection, this experience of connection with one another? What, what's it, what's a good example of something that you've done?

Well, I think the starting point is actually to start within. So you as a leader, like where we asked this, I asked this question earlier, but like, where are you at your best? And think back really to that, because that can set the tone of like how you're, how you're leading the group and maybe why help you understand why some tendencies of this way versus that way. But then looking at your own team and understanding in essence their play type at work and you can see that by like what do they get excited about? So that first question, like when you're doing your one on ones, be genuinely curious about the work that they're doing and what they're achieving and what they like and they don't. Like I've seen too many times the one on ones that go. And it's like a checklist, like what's the progress on this? Okay, do you have any blockers? Okay. And that really happens frequently. And that's more of the consistent thread that gets built over and over again versus like a pause on the inquiry of like for this project, what was the part that really resonated with you? And yes, you're always as a leader wanting to marry what your employees are really good at and thrive in with what the work has to be done. But if you can even pull them into things that they already thrive in, into other projects, you'll have a better sense of that just by asking that genuine curious question consistently. I think that's the thing is we don't do it consistently enough. We do it like review time. So at best maybe it's quarterly when you do your quarterly reviews, but for most that I've seen, honestly it's your end. Okay. That will not build a consistent thread. And when we talked about the neural, neural pathway and stuff like that, now that's, that's not going to cut it. And so really keying in on that as a first. But I think I see you have a question.

Well, I want to, I want to just circle back and define what a play type is. I know that your website is my play type dot com. So that's a pitch website. Right. I don't, it's just perfect here. I would love for people to know what. How do you define a play type? Because probably a term many, many folks have not heard before.

Yeah, well, it rooted from kids and so in looking at and observing how kids, when they're really in the zone, even 2 year olds lasting for several hours on one activity is a big deal. And understanding and tapping into that, that we as adults actually also have that zone. And so you can think of it as your play type, your thrive zone really where you can lose track of time doing what it is, whatever that is and taking that moment though and like so each of us has Certain play types there can be like, for me, I'm a extreme explorer. So any work that doesn't allow me to explore and investigate new situations, I struggle. I struggle. And so there are other types too, like organizers. Like if their things around them are not organized, it's a stressor. And so understanding those aspects can relate to the job that they do. Like whether it be project management or why they might feel spiraling when they're more, in a more entrepreneurial sense. And so that helps you fine tune and also figure out inward. And you can see it on a daily basis, not just a personality test, but you can see it in your own kind of activities and behaviors. Those are, those are when you're exploring and doing those things, you're able to find out. So that's what that is.

Got it. Good. So when it comes to failure, I just want to bring that.

Yeah.

And talk about this because as you said earlier, when kids are learning to walk, they fail all the time. You know, And I've now been reliving this experience through grandchildren, which is amazing because you know, to think back when our four kids were, were all crawling and then learning to walk. No, I remember, but it's also a minute ago, but now I'm seeing it and you're right, no, no kid. I've never seen a kid that is down on themselves or sulking or in, you know, frustration that they can't walk. It's like not a thing. It's just fall down, get up, fall down, get up, fall down. No matter how often that happens, until they do it. So at some point for young people, for kids and then that become adults or big, you know, big kids failing, failing has a very different meaning for them, very different experience for them. So you have a thought or a theory about that, I'm maybe asking you to step outside your own. Yeah.

You know, I have middle schoolers and so one big component is not thinking about that there's failure, but that they have the bravery to try. That they have embedded the bravery to try. And I, I have them focus on that because you're right, like the whole failure, it's the F word. It's another F word that brings in all these other things of judgment and identity crises as well. Like, but really treating it at the core of you have the bravery to try. Did you, did you try your best? Did you, did you really try? You know, that's what's important to like get over that. Focus on the failure side. Like so instead of, oh, we don't have Failure or fear of failure.

We have public judgment.

Bravery to try. Yeah, I was going to say use the judgment. Exactly.

That's. That's our real fear. Right. It's not so much failure, but what.

It means and what everything that's loaded in that word. Right?

Yeah, totally.

We really change it in like you were. I keep saying that bravery, but it's like we are brave every time we try because we know we will fall. But we're focusing on that, the tri part, the momentum, not the downward slope. Right. And that can help really get out of that mental funk. That can happen.

Sure. And it's so interesting when I. It's funny, it's going back to a different. It's like a cultural. It's a reference point, but it's gonna, it's gonna tie it to a particular time in history when Star wars was just emerging. And I. It might. It. Was it Star Wars. Yoda's in Star wars, right? Yoda's a figure in Star Wars. And the great wise all knowing Yoda said something like there is no try. There's you do or do, do not do. Right. Something along those lines.

Yeah.

But when I hear the word try, it's still embedded in me that there is. There's no try.

You just do or do not.

Do not do. Right.

Well, I would say start every day a little bit. Just try. Just try.

So when you bring this to an organization, because I'm very much involved in organizational culture design and development as well. So I'm curious when you say, okay so today we want to help our leaders to have to develop the bravery to try. Or you're looking to help your middle managers or your new hires to learn that bravery, having bravery to try is something we value around here. I'm curious. Give me, give me. I want to. I want a good story. I want an ugly story like meaning. I want a, A culture with. You don't have to name the company, of course, but a culture that completely just would not embrace that or, or actively said no, that's not. We're not, we're. We're much more Yoda like around here. We're not going to go for that. Right. Or a company and a company, I would say that that just wrapped their arms around this concept and went with it. Would you be able to kind of share a little case studies?

I think, I think the first start is to understand like for, for both these scenarios I'm about to give is first kind of understanding their tolerance and appetite right away. Because I know I'M not going to be able to. There's a whole elephant analogy about eating an elephant, but maybe I won't try that one right now, but won't try to tackle the entire beast and know, like, where to start from. So if their tolerance is really just at the team level, let's do that just for them to get a taste of it. If they're trying or believing that they want to do it at a bigger level. Okay, we'll aim for that. So I'll give the example of when they embraced it fully and it was more knowing and understanding. Okay. They wanted. On the. On the project side, on this main working group, what. What we wanted to do and the first part was actually what understanding the playground rules. Right? Like, how do we want to operate together? Kids. Again, I use that as a root of all this work because it's easy to tap into as well for employees. And even without kids, they can see kids around them. But the playing doesn't just happen. They're actually negotiating how they want to be or what parts they want to play in. So having that up front of what the lanes are, how you want to operate the rules of engagement with your playground, so, so important. And so this team embraced that aspect of it. Again, it was just quote, unquote, just a project. But establishing the norms of what those operating guidelines would be was essential. And then through that, knowing that, you know, some of the team members, I'll say like 50, 50 on, like, who felt really comfortable and like kind of click, they, they. But they click together, right? And then you have this other pod that less. And so being purposeful and mixing in a safe environment. So knowing that, okay, even if we're workshopping through a problem, sitting everybody at a table for two hours and somebody on a whiteboard, virtual or physical, is not going to engage those other members or help them feel safe. So in order to do that, you need a small micro moment. So pairing them up in different ways, they don't have to share anything back to the larger group, but they're more comfortable with smaller play dates and groups just to start. And then as they built this over the weeks, over the months, then they were able to then feel, all right, grounded in. Okay, here were the guidelines we were okay with and cool with. And now I feel like I know you as a person. I know you're not judging me so that safety you're built. But you, again, like, you can't build it just from one meeting. You have to be consistently performing that and breaking down the groups. In order to do that. And so they. They were able to not only solve what they were trying to solve and with that project, but man, they felt way closer. They felt way closer within that. And that. That's the good story from that end.

Yes.

And then I have another one. Another one of. So came in seeing that there were gaps, did a kind of like survey within. Amongst the ranks and. But the leadership had thought they needed. They wanted a culture shift. They wanted to embed the. Their five P pillars in and you know that that was what they wanted to. To get through.

So not. Not a project. Not project scope. Bigger.

Yeah. But they're like entire.

Yeah, let's do it. Organizational. Yeah.

And we have these five things that we did two years ago and we. And. And those. Those we want. And you know, there's always a question mark when you have new people in. They had a lot of change happen. Like are these really the playing guidelines? Like, you know, how. How is this happening? And then with that it was like talking with a lot of the employees unpacking all of fizzled out in the sense of understanding that those things weren't really what were matching up. And even if they were all the. And I've been calling them micro moments because those are the things that can be repeated. But these things that the leaders were doing did not make them feel this way. Like all the rules that they set aside. So they didn't even want to participate in sharing these aspects of it.

Right. Because it felt. Or I'm asking. Not.

Yeah, yeah.

No, it. It felt phony.

Yeah, yeah.

So there's like a total disconnect.

Yeah.

Right. The dissonance. Right, yeah.

And to. To. To mend that you need leadership to understand that there's dissonance because the employees, they just want to have a good time at least like what. What they're doing. Like they don't want to be miserable in what they're doing. They don't want work to be draining. Like that's a common theme. Right, right. Sure. It may not be like whoop dee doo every day, but at least not be completely draining all the time. And so this is where on a leadership standpoint, it was very hard because they were set in those five things that values that they said that they wanted to do. And they didn't think they had the time to integrate on a daily basis how to help support that. They were just busy with the outcome.

Sure.

Of like we need revenue. And I think.

Yep.

There's a lot of research actually that tells you some of your hardest problems. If you're able to activate your employees to solve it quickly, that's actually your money made. But certain organizations though, it's really hard to break that particular nut because they're not ready to listen. I kind of equate it to like seeing a therapist. Like when we're ready to see a therapist, open arms and listening, but when we're not ready, we're just not ready. And that can be really hard. They'll need to see more evidence and things like that. You know, that's what I'll continue to, to work on. But I know on an appetite level, like they're probably not, they're, they're not mentally ready to really do what it takes in order to embed that. And it is partly like, all right, every one of your meetings you need, you should start off with the different exercise versus like a list of all right, what's the progress update? Is it red, green, yellow? You know, like those, those things make it very rote and make signals to the employee to act a certain way as well.

Yeah, exactly. And I think that is in so many different areas that we've worked in. We've seen that same thing that, that the lack of trust in the employees ability, capacity to solve complex problems I think is at the root of why organizations will revert to what is a fear based plan when change happens. Because we, we work in the change space a lot and there's an almost, not quite, maybe it's an instantaneous reaction, you know, to meet change with resistance or meet it with fear. But to revert to, yeah, we just need to shore up our finances. And that's why even in the environment that we're in right now, the market we're in at the moment, which is filled with some earned, you know, uncertainties, you see a lot of organizations that are meeting this moment with the same old fear based. Yeah, let's tighten it up, tighten up the belt. Let's, you know, we hired like crazy two years ago, but now we're in like we'll trim again.

Yes, trim again, but then burn out your employees. So it's like the cycle that keeps going on. Burn out your employees or have such a poor experience that their mental health is at risk. Which I've seen more postings and like conversations about that because of all the trimming. And it's a cycle that I want to help break. Being that like if we are able to find out and help your employees find out where they thrive, like even in the toughest, toughest times like you will have this bond with your teammates and solve these types of challenges with just a tad more joy. I think I go through this refusing to believe that we can't have joy in the work that we do for everybody.

It's so interesting. Well, you and I are couldn't honestly, Elaine, we couldn't be any more aligned. I don't believe so. It's been an absolute joy. It's been pleasure for me to talk to you today and get your insights. I'm sure our community, which is made up of a lot of many, many leaders, senior level and even people that are just getting into the workforce for the first time, have loved this conversation, I would imagine, and are craving to know more about you. So in the show notes there'll be more information about who you what you do in the world, including your website, etc, so it'll all be there. And if people have questions for you or for me based on this episode, of course they can. I always include this Adam Markel.com podcast that you can leave a comment or a question there for Elaine or myself and it will be us, not a bot, no AI. We will answer that question. All that good stuff. And finally, I just want to ask you, is there something you're reading? I know it's a kind of a little segue here, but I would love to know if there's a particular business book that you're kind or a book right now that you're reading or one that you've read recently that you just feel you would, you would love for people to dig into because it would help them in terms of unlocking.

I got, I got my, my list right here.

Oh way cool Right now it's as if we planned this, but we did. It's great.

I have all these posting notes the designing your new work in life. And this is by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans. And I think the one part that I really like about it was about these levers of knowing and this is I think to prevent burnout for people out there who may well we all have lots of different identities and passions. Let's just admit it. We're not just work self and personal self. There's so many other facets of it but they have these levers of I wish I could find it right now but any like a sound mixer of like okay, you have agency in your life to like expression of it to another aspect. I can't remember right now but it was just even those things to simplify it and through, through that there's a lot of other ones within yourself, but just starting with those can help you prevent a lot of that burnout.

So beautiful for us in our language, doing a lot of resilience keynote speaking. And after work on that topic, how you combat resilience, how you or combat burnout using resilience is really something I'm very, I'm keyed into. So I lastly ask you this. What's something that you do? Is it is reading one of those things that helps you to be more resilient? What's something that you do on a daily basis?

I think for me, because my play type is so strong on the explorer standpoint, it was to continue exploring because there's a lot of risk there, there's a lot of failure. And just seeing how I'm able to pull in the resources to do it and to figure it out is great. Even, even as simple as like trying to drive someplace without gps. All right. So like even that is a form of exploration for me.

All right, well, I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you one to do since you, you totally embrace this.

Love it.

Here's. And it's, it's right out of a chapter in, in our book Change Proof, which is the toothbrush test or the, the, the toothbrush experiment, if you will, for the next call it. I'll say the next week. Sometimes it's 30 days, but let's just say for the next week, every time you pick up your toothbrush, whether it's once or more a day. And you typically would pick it up with which hand, right or left?

Right hand.

Right hand. Okay. And I would typically pick up mine with my left. So I want you to just switch.

Okay.

And take this bit of a toothbrush challenge and see, see how, how it feels to brush your teeth with the opposite hand. And then just continue for one week. See what that's like.

I will report back. Thank you.

Different. Different dendrites in the brain.

Yeah.

Neuro pathways are going to fire for you to, you know, it'll be awkward if you feel weird, you feel like not getting the job done. Yeah, whatever. Whatever's going to come up for you. Just explore that and then let me know how it went. Okay.

I love it. I will. Thanks for that.

Way cool. Elaine, you've been a blast and I appreciate your time today.

Yeah, no, thank you. Thank you.

I just loved playing. I love to play. I just love to play in so many environments. And the podcast is a kind of a play thing itself in that it's always just different. It's organically changing. And I mean there are certain things I love to ask repeatedly, like that first question. I always love to ask that sometimes I settle in on another kind of a groove or whatever, get in my, my, my flow state in a similar, in a similar way. But, but it's also always unknown. We don't map it out as some podcasts I know are, are rehearsed or pre planned or even scripted is the case is in, in some respects I won't, I won't call anybody out for that, but ours is, is really just always fresh. It's fresh for me and if it's fresh for me, I gotta imagine it's fresh for anybody who's listening as well. And hopefully not just fresh, but, but also fresh, you know, dope, interesting, rad, fun, all those good things. And if it's not, then I totally want to hear, I want to hear from you. To say no. The last thing in the world that it would ever, ever be by intention is, is sort of calculating and, and predictable because in speaking terms anyway, I can say that the, the, the only thing we ever have to really be wary of as, as people who communicate for a living, any public speakers out there or podcasters or those of you that, that present even, you know, in, in work settings, the only thing you really have to be concerned about is being predictable because predictable is boring. So we have to use variance and you have to do things that take out of your comfort zone so that you are yourself not, not predictable, even to yourself. And of course that's scary. And that's why, why it's a different, you know, it's a, it's a skill set that like a lot of things requires practice and, and patience and willingness to fail, willingness to try bravely. That's something we talked about today. Elaine shared with us about bravery and, and the bravery to try and embedding the bravery to try into it in, in adults and in leaders in organizations. Which is funny when you think about it since we were all born with this, this skill. When we were kids, when we were one years old, when learning to walk or whenever we learned to walk, this bravery to try was embedded in us. And we were that way when we were two and when we were three and when we were five, likely. And then at some point later on, whether it was 8 years old or 14 or whenever it was the bravery to try just kind of dissipated that it was, it was a sounder advice or sounder strategy to, to be safe and to not attempt and end up flat on your face. Because if that happened, then there was embarrassment, there was judgment, there was, you know, consequences, etc. And then where do we find ourselves later on in life having to solve complex problems like the world has almost never seen before and business has never seen in this way before. And yet we are coming to, to the, to that endeavor, to that requirement, even with an incapacity incapable so many people of being creative and applying a out outside the box way of thinking of a mindset that is exploratory and, and also lacking in the capacity in many ways to collaborate effectively with others. Play to play nicely in the sandbox is probably what Elaine Chung would have said since she is so immersed in, in. In how it is that we as adults learn how to integrate play into our work lives and into the cultures at work. I thoroughly love this conversation today. And learning about the neural pathways of play, what a play type is, in fact, just loved it if you did too. If this was something that, that inspired you or made you think and in different ways and just had you, you know, expanding your, your consciousness, you know, was interesting. Share this episode please, with a friend, a family member, a colleague at work, or somebody else that you think would just benefit from it. And thank you for doing that, by the way. That helps us. It helps that other person, hopefully, and all that, but it also helps us. So thank you for doing that. Also, if you take the time to provide a rating for the podcast today, hopefully it was a five star on the platform that you consume this content that is also super helpful to us. So I can only say thank you for that and I'm so grateful for the people that take the time to do that because it helps us. And by helping us, hopefully it means we're also helping more people. It's a ripple effect. So we appreciate you very much for that. With that, I want to recommend that you take your own resilience assessment. Go to resiliencerank.com or rank my resilience.com anytime you like. It remains open to you. It is free. It takes three minutes. And it helps you to. To find out, creatively speaking, where, where are you, where are you succeeding? Where, where are things? Where are you exhibiting resilience traits and where is the gap? Where's the delta? Where that creative space could be filled with maybe some new ritual, some new practice that eventually becomes habitual that helps you to be more resilient, mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually speaking. So with that, I want to thank you again as always, for your time and for being a part of this growing community. Thank you so much and have a blessed, beautiful day and I'll say ciao for now.

Thanks for listening. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build resilience and become change Proof. Remember to leave a review on Apple Podcasts and you may be featured in an upcoming episode. For more resilience tips and strategies, including support for building Change proof teams, visit AdamMarkel.com to get your own free resilience assessment, go to rankmyresilience.com.

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