Unlocking The Secrets To Leadership And Resilience With Dr. Anthony Simmons

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress, and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markell and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change.

Proof.

Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Change Proof podcast. I'm your host, Adam Markel, and you're going to love the guest that I've got ready for you today. This gentleman is, is somebody with tremendous insight, great experience, and, and I just enjoy his presence. You're going to enjoy him as well. Let me read his bio and then I'm going to jump right into it. So. Dr. Anthony L. Simmons served 28 years as a Navy Surface warfare officer.

Was.

He retired at the rank of captain. His Navy experience includes four at sea commands, a patrol coastal, two Aegis destroyers and a destroyer squadron ashore. He worked in human resources at the Navy Bureau of Personnel and the Pentagon on the staffs of the Joint Chiefs and Naval Operations as a strategic planner and resource officer. Since retiring, Dr. Simmons has worked in the defense industry as a system and test engineer, experiment planner and leadership instructor. He earned his doctoral degree in strategic leadership from Regent University and also Dr. Simmons is the founder of Six Gear Consulting, which is a leadership performance consulting practice that instructs leaders on how to lead through bridging people and technology. Again, you're going to enjoy this conversation. So sit back, find a, find a great place to relax and listen as we gain some tremendous insights from Dr. Anthony Simmons. Okay, Dr. Simmons, now you and I agreed I'm going to call you Anthony, but I wanted to get, I want to at least get one of those in.

All right, So I appreciate it.

No, that's just props for everything you've done. And, and you've, you've had quite a, quite a career, quite an amazing journey. And, and what I really want to ask you, even though that your, your CV and, and the bio is, is impressive and most people couldn't even imagine how, how you could, how you could fit all that in, in a single life, but you've managed to do a lot of those things that have made such a big impact. My question is what's something that isn't a part of your record, service and your job history and, and all those amazing credentials? What is one thing that's not included in that, that you would love for people to know about you, that maybe people don't know about you?

I'm a blue collar Guy I spent a lot of time rehabbing homes and working special projects within the community. And also I have a hobby of working on automobiles. In fact I was restoring a 2001 BMW 540 manual shift this weekend.

And have you always been like, had a head for that or just understood the components? I mean like how do you. Because I love cars myself. I'm, I've always enjoyed them and whatnot. But put me under, under, under it. I mean I can figure some stuff out just common sense wise but, but I don't know how they work. And so I would just, I took something apart, I wouldn't be able to put it back together is my fear.

Yes, my father was auto mechanic so I sort of grew up around it. He always had, my brother and I, they always watched the parts and he was self employed once in automobile industry and also he always ensured that we was able to work on the cars that we actually we drove. So I had a 67 Mustang. San Yar was born when I was in high school and just watched the stuff he did and, and I just always had affinity, affinity for taking stuff apart. So once I restored that 67, I took the entire dash compartment out when I was 16 years old. Probably couldn't do it now. Just amazing how some things we can do when we're young and now we sort of dare to do it. So yeah, so I was around it and he was a good teacher. So I just had that opportunity and just the hometown I grew up in and the guys that came in the 70s, you know when the best, best years for cars around 67 to 69 time frame. So you had all the Chevelles, the Mustangs that, you know that, the Dodges that was on the street and pretty popular. So I grew up in that, that, that environment.

Indeed. Yes, yes, the, the original, those Camaros, those early Camaros. Yes, the Vets, obviously the Stingray and all that.

Yeah, yes, exactly.

Beautiful.

I was a Ford Family Guy. But I tell you, I still admire the Camaros and the Chevelles and the Corvette, so. Absolutely.

And I want to just maybe, maybe follow that, that thread just a moment more, which is to say when it comes to taking stuff apart and putting it back together, I want to use this maybe as a metaphor. Let's, we'll try this on for size and see if it, if it, if it can fit throughout the, our conversation today. I mean what do you learn when you're, when you're at that young and impressionable age about taking stuff apart and putting it back together or, or diagnosing what might be wrong because it, you know, we don't typically take something that's working, take it apart, put, see, you know, see, put it back together if, if it's working. I think most often we, we do that when something's either not working or we want it to work better, you know, and I, I imagine, you know, if you wanted to get more, more performance out of an automobile, out of an engine, you might take it apart or add something to it to do that. But I want to get back to that, just sort of what's the mindset around, around doing that? Because you're going to break stuff, right? Stuff, you're going to make some mistakes, you're going to put some things back together in the wrong way. It's not going to work is right. I mean, or did you do it, or did you do it perfectly right out of the gate?

No, I didn't. In fact, I used, I did take stuff apart that worked perfectly. My father brought me a gun that was ignited with a gas chamber and it once. And I had took it apart on Christmas Day. And boy, he was so got off with. He was like, you know, you, I paid more for this gun than I pay for any of my guns. And you take the thing apart, springs went everywhere. So that was a bad experience. But go back to what you're talking, you know, I, I went, I did a lot with leadership and I went to Air Command and Staff College in Montgomery and down in 2001, I say that and I learned that social science, you know, really evolved right in the 60s. And I look at physical science and social science and I see the parallels there. You know, for his 10 things AP part and the discovery inside of things. So if you don't really dissect, you know, was the physical side of the social side. Once you get inside of pieces, you understand, you know, the makeup of it. And I think that's the beauty of it when you're there, whether it's automobile engine or what have you. And it's saying I had to mix your part. So I, I recall the guys in my hometown when I was young, they would take, try to get the max power out of a vehicle, right? So the guys had these 350 engines and they would take them apart and put a 400 intake on them and they would get, you know, maximum power. So that's the beauty of it. You know, once you get inside and look at the intern, you say, what can I really, really do to Add some value to what's really inside of here. So that, that was the big takeaway, I feel. And the same thing with the human being, you know, the social science side. You know, you got to get inside of people and dissect them so you can see what's within the realm of the possible. And you have to be resilient, as I'm looking at on your shirt there, because there are going to be some failures that's in life and also in your challenges. As I talked about with the, with the pellet gun that I took apart.

I want to get into the leadership thing too. I want it. And so you read my mind there. Maybe start with a little bit of your background. You, You've had the opportunity to work at a very high level and lead other lead folks in, in. In this, in. In military service. So maybe just let's dig into where it was that you first started to learn about leadership yourself in the, in some of those roles. Would you. Will you take us back in time to a bit?

Well, you know, in life we do things naturally. We find ourselves, you know, eager, curious when you're kids and find yourself in certain positions, making certain things happen. I was a quarterback first. My time, my first time I played football years old, I was a tight end and. But I always wanted to be the quarterback. Even we played what we call sandlock football and I always wanted to throw the ball. But I was young and so older guy became the quarterback. So I begged the coach let me just throw the pass occasionally, you know, so he would put me back there on certain plays to throw the halfback pass. Even though I was a tight end, but I would line up at running back. So the next year I was like, hey, I'm going to play quarterback regardless. So I went out for quarterback. I was not the guy he selected. He had brought another guy that he knew to play quarterback. And I said, I'm to going, he has to beat me out. So I became a quarterback my second year playing football and Dale and basketball was the same. I was always the point guard. I always felt that no matter what team I played on, I can make, you know, I can will the team to win. You know, I said, you know, every guy, you guys choose your team. I take the leftovers and we're going to beat you with the guys that you guys don't want to have. So I had this innate ability, you know, to just lead and then make a difference. And I felt independent in my actions and doing that for as I didn't Feel like I had to have someone to push me to make a difference. And as I began to grow and learn, and especially over the latter years, I had a chance to go back and see, to pretty much validate some of those innate unnatural abilities. And I, I learned from my Clifton top five. You know, my, it's. My ability is, Is to be a learner, to be responsible, to be like a lifelong achiever. And then my spiritual gifts from Romans 12 is, is to teach. So that's just who I, that's my natural makeup. And as I, I've learned that. And it just went back and it fed into a way appear, you know, in what I strive to be, you know, for my formative years. And I just continued to, you know, stay in that, on that glass slope. And then the Navy, I, fortunately, after you know, playing sports through high school and collegiately joined the Navy, which organization that was. You know, I was a ship driver. I had a lot of the fancy weapons and worked in combat. But I always like to tell people I really spent 28 years more like a, a sociologist more than anything because it was all about the people around me, you know, and then being able to interact with them and, you know, put a position to help, you know, be, Be successful as an organization.

So, yeah, so a lesson that came out of, out of your, Your time in the Navy, I mean, it, It's a hierarchical structure. So unlike being, you know, in a, in a, in a, in a sporting structure, like in a. Sports, you know, on a team, and, and where you could just decide, well, I want to be the quarterback, even though maybe somebody else was thinking that you weren't suited or they weren't thinking that you were. At first they weren't thinking of you in that role, but you decided that you were going to be in that role and then were able to manifest that through hard work and proper attitude. And I imagine you practiced a lot and everything else and then just all this, you know, natural acumen, natural skills. But, but in the Navy or in any sort of hierarchical structure like that, you could decide that you, you want to be something. But maybe in that structure it's either you have to have a lot of patience or you have to go through certain process. You have to. And maybe there's some, some, some ceilings you can't bust through just because, because you decide, you know, that, that you can do something. Any, any of that ring true for you?

It is. But, you know, it never bothered me. I always tried to understand the process even before the neighbor. I would Pay close attention to my high school football coaches. And I was a gosh, man, they get to be a coach, you know, they don't have to do all this sweating and what have you. And I said, maybe one day I'm going to aspire to be like them. No, I didn' you know, envy their position. They paid the price, they paid their dues. So I said, you know, I want to be able to listen to them and be able to do what it, what it took for them to get to where they are. So I looked at it in that, in kind. And I was saying with the Navy, I, it was first, it was hard transitioning from a collegiate athlete, going into Officer Candidate school, not because I wanted, you know, to be front center. It was just that I had this real aggressive nature and I was real competitive and, and I was more surrounded by people that was more academia, a big mixture, you know, something I haven't had been, had not been exposed to. So you have to learn to humble and you have to be very patient and, you know, just adjust to the environment and just understand the landscape. So that was, I felt, my key attribute and, and as I got more involved in Navy, I would just watch, you know, the people that did have certain, you know, positions and ones I work for, and I, you know, I just continued to model, you know, try to see could I do their jobs and understanding I could not beat him because that comes with time. But I always try to, as much as I could, to supplant, you know, whatever efforts they was doing and, and to the point where they established confidence and trust in me and what, you know, they give me more and more opportunities, you know, to do things. But I did. It was, it was never a problem with positional authority, you know, the high arc aspect of it. It was just, hey, if you do what you're supposed to do at this level, then those opportunities will present themselves and you better be ready when they do. So I just want to make sure I was prepared for the next level.

Yeah, it, I'm not. I don't think I've ever asked anybody that that was in a role similar to yours whether they had a mentor. I mean, I don't think I've asked that question of any, any of the, I mean, I've had lots of people that have had long and, and distinguished service careers, but I don't know that I've ever asked about mentorship in the context of military service. So what could you tell us about that? Is that, is that a thing? Did you have it, you know?

Yes. You know, you don't. You know, you don't go anywhere in life. I feel without good mentorship. And I had a mentorship when I was growing up. You know, I didn't know what mentorship meant. My father was more into the. I'm gonna use the word agrarian lifestyle because that's what he knew. And he believed in hard work. We farmed in the summertime, we did logging in the winter. That's. That's what he knew. That's what he was taught. Hard work, you know, it was not so much based on, you know, the academic side, but I had a high school principal there that was. That offered, you know, me advice and gave me guidance on the importance of academics, set me up, facilitated, you know, some of my learning, which the word mentor didn't exist, but I could not have accomplished and achieved the things I did. You know, being prepared to go off to college and understand and appreciate education without having him there, you know, supporting, you know, my. My vision in that regard also shed, you know, new light on stuff that I just didn't otherwise not have had exposure to. And as you come into the military, it's. It' very similar. And then it was probably not until maybe five, ten years into the military that we made it pretty sensible that, you know, we would be assigned mentors is when it came up, like, a little more palatable, and we began to understand and meet with, you know, those individuals that would help champion your, you know, your career. So, yeah, definitely. So I. I've always had, you know, the pleasure and the luxury of a mentor throughout life, and that's why I try to give back as much as I can. But I changed my approach from mentorship to For. As a coach. Some people use the word life coach. I don't really necessarily like that one. I like more like a career coach and. And professional development coach, so that way you can interact with people. So, like, on the level of co equals, not like mentors, more like, I see who you are, what you're doing, so he'd be like me. So that's not how it is. I want to draw introspectives. Let's have conversations. And it's like I said, it's more of a co equal by someone you look up to based on their accomplishments. So it's a little process. So. So I try to be more like a coach, protege model and vice mentor. Protege modeling.

And you were 20, 28 years, is that correct?

In 28 years, I did 28 years, yes. Yes.

And so retiring from that, you, you, you had to, you were working on a transition plan, I assume at some point as to what you were going to do after that. Because it, it is such a structured life that I think it's, it can be, it can be a challenge coming on. Being on the other side of that, where that structured is, is no longer there. I mean, it's no, probably no different than I had a, had a gentleman on our show a couple of weeks ago. He was just retiring from a, you know, Fortune 500 company after 33 years, and he was wondering, you know, what the heck, what the heck am I going to do? I don't have 10 meetings all booked up every day, you know, because it's so structured, there's so much to do. You always know pretty much every minute, you know, what it means to be on task. But. But on the other side of that, it's freedom. But, but it's also a lack of a certain structure. So maybe, maybe tell us a little bit about what that transition was like for you and what it is that you're, you're currently.

You know, you gotta have foresight no matter what you do in life, you know, you always got to plan ahead. Something's going to happen, you know, that's going to be off ramps here and there. You know, we just don't know what, you know, sometimes on the road ahead, but we have to be prepared for whatever direction, whatever life offers. So I, it goes back to simplest on a plane, talking with a retiree. And this is probably, I'm still probably 12, 15 years into the Navy, and I'm talking to someone that sitting next to me, and he was like, yeah, you know, this life on our side, not like it was in the military. It was so much structure in the military. People really cared about each other and you can make so much happen. I hear no one cares about each other. It's just a free fall. He said, you know, I just really, really missed the military and said, so enjoy while you're there, you know, So I, that's one. So I listen to that part of the conversation, but also listen to the other part. Like it. It's not the same on the outside. So what do you do? You know, you take these skill sets, travel to over. I travel to over 60 countries. We did a lot of. You go back and look at this. Consider the sale of the Great White Fleet. You know, the Navy was always good at diplomacy, so we visit countries. I had captains that would take the young officers in on the official Calls and just teach us, you know, how to act with, you know, dignitaries from, from other countries. And we went in, we did community relation, project Goodwill, project Sporting advance, just, you know, just throughout. So you, and you take these lessons so you know, how the United States Navy can influence, you know, so many other parts of the world. And we are, you know, pretty large powerful Navy. But how do you make people comfortable that, you know, develop partnerships so you can actually train to get at the bigger mission? And so I said, gosh, it's just some really powerful stuff I've been exposed to here. So now take this. And once you do lead the military, I had started preparing myself to get out and do, like, inspirational speeches and, you know, engaging peoples and organizations and trying to help, you know, those guys find efficiencies, get people to really appreciate each other, try to bring, you know, more unity and connecting, the sticking together. Similar what we did in the Navy, you know, throughout, you know, other countries. Why can't we do this right here? You know, in America, we. With so many micro cultures that exist in America, sometimes people just don't appreciate that. You know, people talk about ethics, they talk about values, and those are strong beliefs. So sometimes, you know, you got to get out of your, you know, prism and your belief sometime and try to understand and appreciate things from another person perspective. And that's when I went off into my doctorate and. And then I wrote my thesis on a champion organizational wellness and which pretty much tees up how do you really, really have people to connect and appreciate each other, you know, across, you know, district cultures and throughout. So I modeled that from what I did in the Navy, and it was a vision that I started framing, you know, probably, you know, I guess around 20 years into it. And I started doing a lot of writing and what have you and just putting all these different concepts together and which now I'm able to realize that I'm just not really beginning to start that. That journey, you know, and push some of those lessons out as I gain more footing, you know, post military.

So I, I want to know more about what's involved in, in championing organizational wellness because I think that, that I know is something that near. Near to us, near and dear to my heart personally.

And yes.

And you know, in the times we, what we can see, I mean, the signs are everywhere that the people are burnt. Burning out. Yes, some burned out. Some. Some are just in the process of burning out. Right. But you know, anxiety levels, mental health challenges. I mean, this is, this is real. No, nobody's Nobody's screaming fire and it's not a false alarm at this point, so.

Yes.

Yeah. So I think get, maybe we get a little granular on, on what that looks like to you.

Okay.

Yeah, I'd love that.

Okay. When I, I went through joint command staff college, we tried to become joint qualified officers and I started at the basic with inter organization relationships and we were discussing 9, 11 and you know, all the different information that was available and how did we really apply that, you know, it was enough information that I could help us to prepare better, you know, for what potentially happened. Sometimes you get overwhelmed with information. You don't know what information to really apply. So I always been big on the human intervention, you know, the people skills. I started this company, six consultant sixth Gear, in order to bridge people and technology, get, you know, the common, you know, the foundational pieces of human intervention in place. And so I, I forward that and to fast forward that into champion organization. Well done. My doctorate degree and then pulling from what I had experienced in the Navy with connecting people, some initiatives to have people work, you know, together. Looking at how we deal with the younger generations as far as performance perspective, how do we do cross functional training. A lot of different tools that I saw and, and people and you notice the terms organization development, it's just so common. I say, you know, we all, we, a lot of people practice organization development, but they bring consultants. Outsiders come in to work with organizations and teach certain skill set, but they never sustained itself. So I just went back and looked at what I had experienced in the Navy. The good, you know, and the bad, you know, force type leaders. We had the ones that was more inclusive, you know, that provided platforms for instruments for us to work better as a team. And that's what, and I instituted, implemented some of those programs in the ships that I was actually commanding. And one of them is the mentor, which I call the Coach Protege program. If I had kids come from different parts of the world, not familiar with each other, I, I personally was involved with, you know, aligning mentors and proteges so they could get to know each other, they can learn from each other. And that's another advantage of a coaching relationship. I mentoring, it's a relationship co equals where you guys really grow. And that's what champion organizational wellness brings all these concepts together. So essentially what it distills down to is organizational wellness is the confluence of organization development plus organization sustainment. So how do I get development? I get it through, you know, just trying to grow as an individual through self assessments, NAVIGATING blind spots. You notice the, the out stuff versus the lump stuff that's overcoming some of your, maybe your culture norms, some of your ethical beliefs and what have you. And then you link with another, your aspiring leader through a coaching conversation. And I always say, you know, meeting people halfway is not the same. People got socioeconomic status, they got background differences. So halfway is not always the same distance for everybody. So how do you reach people? So I did my dissertation and leadership coaching when I was going through the doctoral program. So that was my means establishing that. Those foundational pieces. Seth, myself, myself, so. And how did you grow? We talk about how I read a lot. I read, right now I just read Optimum by Daniel Goldman and Tyrannis. They've been studying this whole emotional intelligence concept for over 25 years. And so I'm gonna take some of the lessons from there also. Stephen M. Cody, Trust and inspire because it's no longer a command and control, a hierarchy platform that we're dealing in nowadays. We got to be able to better relate to people. So those my foundational pieces for champion organization wellness. As I put this triangle as organizational wellness. In the, in the bottom of the train is those three pieces I just talk to there. Assessing yourself, getting better, overcoming blind spots, and then having a coaching conversation to link with the person you're trying to, you know, aspire to do better. Then once you come together and meet him, wherever that location is on that bottom of the triangle, then you have to go through what I call. You have to be culturally agnostic. You know, what does that mean? I have to understand other culture. I had to, you know, improve my culture intelligence by talking to people, getting to know them like we went into other countries, getting into the trenches with them, understanding life from their perspective so we can better engage them. Then the last piece was the coaching organization as organization of where you empower people and I like this word more now, encourage people, enable people to do better, you know, through giving them the tools and the instruments, you know, to get exposure, get access to some of the same information as you begin to co create. And that's, that's. And you do that through a coaching organization. And people talk about, I want to have a flat organization, but what does it mean to have a flat organization? People don't have access to the same information. They don't have too much to offer you. So you have to imbue people with, you know, a certain level of knowledge where you do strategic thinking and strategic acting in the same space. You know, that way you can Deal with change, you know, throughout that organization. So that's what I really call true empowerment. And that's that again I take the organization that has people that are encouraged, empowered, what have you and then would be a cultural agnostic that that's your ways to get to the top of that triangle. And once you're to the top of that triangle, that's what equates to organ organizational wellness. That I y' all walk together there me as the leader and the aspiring leader. Once we get to the top of that triangle then it becomes leadership succession where now that aspiring leader has the same skill sets, the same tools and that I have that can circle him around back into the bottom left of that training but he can bring someone else along. And then we got leadership succession and we got people that just continue to go into your organization is reaching a peak performance. So that's the genesis of organizational wellness. In the last chapter I mentioned earlier was the tools in the back is chapter eight and those are you have to have your main thing, what's really important, you know, you have to communicate the same message, you know, to your, to your organization. You know, mine was always responsibility, accountability, loyalty and trust. And I always felt that accountability and lawyer was two ways. You know, if I'm senior to junior, junior to senior. And then responsibility is just, you know, you responsible to the person you work for to do your job. And then, then loyalty is, you know, it's top down, you know, you have to do right by people. And sometimes sorry, lawyers is one way. Then trust is other than there's two ways, trust and accountability. So just important for the guys that work for me to trust me. It is for me to trust them. So some people don't understand that sometimes they just feel like it's a matter of the senior person trusting the junior person. So that was my main thing. And then the other one was you have to have people, you have to have the human resource strategy, professional development strategies for people to give them opportunity, you know, let them know what the visit, what the future holds for them. Especially in the world we're in today, people wants to, you know, they call it delay. We did delayed gratification. Nowadays people want gratification to be a little more tangible. And then I the instrumentor and with a coaching prodigy model and then it's the cross functional training. Those are the tools that I use in that final chapter. That's how you sustain organizational wellness by giving people the independent to grow. And then that way they'll stay around. You know, we Try to get rid of this quite quitting. So they just have to be assured that, you know, are connected and people actually investing in their well being.

Yeah, I mean you said a lot there. So I want to, I want to maybe just talk about a couple of things. But I mean if you were going to design culture, if you're going to redesign a culture today, given just what you've seen, because you worked with multiple organizations and you came out of a very large organization, a very structured organization, as we said earlier, the, the US Navy, I'm, I'm curious if there's something it would have to be part of the, of the design build of a, of a, of an organizational culture culture, a corporate culture, for example, or it could, doesn't have to be corporate, but you know, a culture that's being designed on purpose today, given what's going on in the world, the environment we're in is not the same as it was before the pandemic. You know, and I'll say anecdotally what we hear from organizations that we work with, we hear that their culture was, was what got them through the pandemic.

Pandemic.

That's, that's, we hear that frequently. They attribute the culture as the, as part of this. The, the what was their sort of their, their superhero power or their, you know, their, the thing that was that buoyed them in the midst of that uncertainty. And, and I get that and that makes sense. But on the other side of the pandemic, asking that organization or those leaders this questions about how their culture is today, they say, well, it's not the same culture as it was before. And so, so if the pandemic were to happen right now and that organization was to have to come together the way it did years ago, just a few years ago, it might not be the same result because the culture feels different than it did before. I want to come back to you and ask you to comment on any of that. Whether you've also seen that the culture before pandemic and post pandemic is different. And really back to the first question of if you were going to design, build a culture today, what would it look like? If it would look differently than it would have looked five years ago, what would be the difference?

Absolutely. I, I told you, I, I study a lot, I read a lot. You have to, because in order to add value to people, you have to understand and pace, you know, the changes. And I recently read hybrid workforce just because they talking culture sometimes. And how, how does the hybrid workforce really work. You got to be careful not to overstrain over constrain a problem? No hybrid. You know, we did remote, you know, during the COVID before then it was more on site. So now we want to sort of have your kick and eat it too. We're going to have both, right? So now we got to determine who's hybrid and who's not hybrid. How do we do this, how do we do that? So you got to be very careful. Don't you know, sort of envision something that's. That's not tenable. So that's my concern with that part. And some people don't know where they are culturally. But you have to establish a culture as a leader and you have to be very genuine as you establish that culture. And according to Shen Shen some research, it's four culture types. Okay. You got the Hararis turkey cultural, you have the clan. That means where everyone develop, come together as a team. You have the market that's in order to pace change, you know, in society, chase the market. Then you got the ad hocs, you know, culture where you stand up for certain situations. Okay. Now I. I have a friend I went to officer school with named Mark Devine. He came up with this term called buckle. He said he's a former Navy seal. He's doing a lot of great things out there post military as well. But Vulcan use, right? Yeah, yeah, Vodka. That means volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous. So what that really mean? I mean you got a dynamic external actors. The market is all over the place. Things are changing, people are changing. So how do you do that? And I mentioned earlier about strategic thinking and strategic acting in the same space, right. So that means you have to empower people. And what clan cultures do they develop? You know, people and you know, and training them increase their skill sets so they can work together. So yes, there's always be some hierarchy structure like the military, but the environment we in today, you have to have what I call and I'm doing a presentation down in Florida for the American nurses conference on the 28th, 29th of May. And so I'm putting the product out there. You have to blend those cultures. You got to do hybrid cultures nowadays, you know, you can't just fixate on market. And that's what you'll find sometime in the defense contractor sector. You know, people try, you know, chasing market conditions and sometimes when I say market, what does that mean? I mean a lot of stuff is based on profit and loss more so than anything about the cut personnel sometimes because the market drives that. But then people feel like you are being disloyal to them now. So you have to have a combination on that market culture as well as that clan culture. You got to still grow and develop people. You got to invest in people as well as. Yeah, they do understand the conditions, but you have to also make them appreciate what it is you're doing so they can, you know, have a big grasp. You just can't be disingenuous about how you really, you know, managing your organization from a cultural perspective. So you got to be agile within those cultures and you got to blend them into, in a hybrid like fashion, because it's a lot of moving parts. You know, you want to turn all those conditions into opportunities and, you know, put a positive spin on them. So that's. That. That's my take there.

You know, when you were in, when you were in the Navy, you really. And I'm speaking for you, but I'm asking you to correct, correct me, okay, if I'm speaking out of turn. You weren't, I would imagine you weren't worried about your job security, as in, if you did your job, you're going to keep your job. And if you did your job well, there was a, there was a road ahead. There was a career path that you could at least look to and, and plan on to some degree. That. That's accurate, right?

That's very accurate. Yes. You had job security. Yes. And you see a similar approach now. I mean, when I retired, I could have became, you know, applied, became a government civilian and had the same level of security. Security, you know, that's the other option is not become a government civilian and become more a contractor, which I chose the latter, you know, and with less security. And so why did I do that? Because I felt that I prepared myself I could bolster or enhance my job security by being better prepared.

So I guess the reason I'm bringing that up was just because it is a curious thing that when you watch organizations again coming out, out of the, out of the, the pandemic, many of them that were, were just at the beginning sort of wondering if they. How much pain would they endure and for some, whether they'd even survive. And then two years later, they were having their best, their best years, you know, one after another, best year, best revenue, et cetera. And yet in the same context, there were, there were layoffs that were happening and people were contracting the market, as you say, market culture based on market forces. They began to contract and people were losing their jobs. And it's an, it's an interesting thing when we think about what culture, what effective culture looks like that in the midst of that there's this insecurity that's baked in. And I wonder if you have an opinion as to whether or not that that inherent insecurity on the part of people that are working in those jobs actually is helpful to them, is helpful to the organization's performance and, and in developing the kind of culture that can, can succeed for the long term, whether that insecurity or fear even plays out well, or is, is useful or whether it's counter, counterproductive action.

But that's a loaded question.

It is a bit of a loaded question. It is. And feel free to like push it back at me and anything you like there, you know, I think it's an important question.

It's a very important question. And there's no direct answer to that question. Once again we go to being resilient. We talk about being agile, talk about being flexible. And we have to be sometimes comfortable, being uncomfortable, use the word security, how you are as a person, right. And you know, risk. Some people risk adverse. You know, when we had the pandemic it was tough, you know, but we adapted as a country. And I always like to think America as a whole, it's a very, we're a very resilient country. We do get comfortable and we got innovative and creative as a result of the pandemic. And go back and read history, you know, went through the Great Depression, you know, we, we've been through so much in this country. So I don't think I, I think stuff that happens in life, I think it always happens. I think it makes us better. And when I do face challenges in life, I have setbacks I look at as opportunity to get better, to learn lessons there. And you can't walk scared, you know, in life you got to understand your landscape and you got to be able to deal with whatever the circumstances are. You know, you can't look at a completely risk averse world. And that's the only thing I can say for is your culture. You got to just teach people reality, teach them to be flexible, keep them informed. And you look at everything as a, it's an organizational problem, it's not an individual problem. I'm really big on the sum of the holes. You bring all the minds together, you keep people in the know and you can do risk mitigation, you know, by encouraging people to work with you as a team, they can see the changes, they can see the dynamics and they can help inform you so you can sort of stay ahead of the power curve or get to the left of the problems. There can always be. Problems are always going to be unknowns. There's always a fog of war, you know, that we learn in the military. And so I, in society we have to look at, you know, the market in, in certain manner. So you put mitigators in through preparing people so we can all, you know, sort of pace the problem in the doubt best we can. So I think what 911 did, I think it prepared us for, you know, for the next setback, a challenge we may face.

Yeah, it's this, such, this so interesting reading I did on, on the way the Coast Guard prepared ahead of time for 9 11. They were one of the most prepared groups on that day because they, they had, they had involved in a certain amount of training and future casting, scenario planning, exercises, you know, because nobody's got a crystal ball. Even though in, I don't know, maybe in 1993 or four, the Trade center was bombed, as we all know, and that was a major event. So there were signs that this could happen or something like it could happen. I don't believe, personally, I know there's a book written with this title Black Swan, but I don't, I don't think there's any such thing because anything that happens, happens was inevitable.

That's true.

Yes, it happened. So clearly it could have been pretty, you know, was, could have happened. But the Coast Guard was very much thinking about and, and not just thinking about it, but actually embodying what it would be like to, to live, to be involved in, in one of those remote situations.

Yes.

And, and therefore they were able to grapple ahead of time with what it would look like and then be prepared. So, so, so I couldn't, I couldn't agree with you anymore about, about the, those aspects of resiliency. In fact, Darwin, that's often quoted, when people think about what resilience is or what, you know, strength is, they say it's the survival of the, of the fittest. That. Yes, right, but, but it's actually a misquote in some respects because he says actually it's not the ones that are the strongest that survive or even the ones that are most intelligent in our species. It's the most adaptable. It's what you said.

Exactly.

And I couldn't agree more that the United States of every, of every nation on the planet that I know anything about the United States has been incredibly adaptable because we've been through Some we've been through the. And then some.

Yes that's true. Now you. And we still go back. That's true. And you know, and, and I just have the epiphany when you. I'm a parallel the Coast Guard until what you sayanism. And most adaptable. You know, the Coast Guard was. They worked for DOD during war and they was prepared to work. They worked for DOT during peacetime, you know, Department of Transportation, they did law enforcement. They also prepared the flex into. Into the DOD side. So that within itself gives them flexibility and adaptability. So I'm not surprised that they was the one that responded in kind. You know, they make up. So they've been agile for some time and flexible and adaptable. So.

Interesting. Yeah, there's something, there's something there this, there's something there for us that, that would be good for follow up. But and the other, you know, the other thing that you brought up that I think is really important and this is, this, is this kind of a. It's. It's not a tough love conversation. But I, I had this out with somebody. I literally had this out with some. With a guest on my show the other day because there's an element of self responsibility that's embedded in this because, because I think that the, the tension here is, is on, on the organizational side. When you think about culture, to me transparency is important. I get it that you can't let, you're not going to let everybody know every detail of your plan and your strategy any more than then, you know, high command would let, would let enlisted men and women or others know because it's just not what you would do. It wouldn't make sense. Right. But there's a certain level of, of not sort of entrapping people or leading them with. To believe something that's not actually true. Like when organizations talk about this being a family. I get it. I love my family, I love my friends and, and I consider you know, to me my family. Be every man, woman and child on this earth on some level from a spiritual side. But when you're working at a place and people talk about it being a family and, and the next minute they're laying off their family as though they, they're strangers. You know, there's a, there's a conflict there, there's an issue with that. So to me, you know, there's some level of, of both honesty, transparency about what this relationship really does look like and, and another level of if, if that is going to be a part of the Cycle. And let's just say it's, it is a natural part of the cycle. It's a, it's a predictable part of the cycle that when market forces require it, organizations to, to take care of stakeholders, which is a separate conversation, but assume that that's not going to change, that the stakeholders are going to be the sort of the tip of the spear. Then there's going to be times when we contract and contraction is going to mean reduction in force and stuff like that. So prepare those people not only for that eventuality, if you want to call it that. Right. But also what kind of training can we provide them, what kind of support can we give them to be more adaptable? Because you're, you're a, you're not, you're not an average guy. That, that's just the truth of it, you know, Like Anthony, you're not, you were not average in high school. You weren't average when you took apart that, that pistol, when you took apart the, the car. I mean, these are not things that a lot of people do. And so, and then when you join the Navy that you know, you, you had, you have a certain self determination, but also a high standard of self responsibility. Because then, then when you feel that way, no matter what life throws at you, no matter what your employer throws at you, you know, you're going to land on your feet because you're, you're able to think on your feet, but not, but a lot of people are not, honestly have not been trained that way. That's not their, that's not their prior life experience. And so they're, they're kind of like relying on their employer to take care of, of them. If they put in their 40, 50 hours or they do whatever they're, you know, like that's their, where they're coming from. And, and I think we could do a better job of training people, especially those, those young folks and, and middle managers that don't seem to get a lot of the training dollars when it comes to how, how organizations allocate training, development, investment.

I'm gonna, I really love talking to you. First of all, thank you for that, that vote of confidence there and those accomplishments. I really appreciate that. But you know, and you, you just really bring some more insight into me. Here we talk. First thing, trust. Okay? That, that's the term, that's the underpinning. We have to do a better job developing trust, as you mentioned. Well, you know, you can't give people everything. Some people don't, you know, but you got to develop more trust, you got to be more transparent. You know, people talk. I often read, I do Fast Mac, I read fast Company articles. And, and it's just constantly drumbing up. People not communicate. Not communicate, not communicating, communicate. So why they not communicating? Because they're not trusting. Now I had a concept that always have worked for me. And in command, I had people from all over the world. As I talked earlier in the ship, people had different, you know, Navy probably one of the most diverse services when it comes to. We got guys that come in that don't do quite as well, you know, they as fabs. And then we got guys just rocket scientists, you know, straight out of high school. So I always feel like you're only as strong as your weakness, weakest link. Okay. And I and I strive on that. Now you got the Pareto rule that you know, 20 of the people doing 80% of the work. My concept is team within teams. If I got someone that's really super smart, really gifted, then they got to help the people around them because we the sum of the whole. Okay. We got to make each other stronger. Yeah. And the worst, I go to a classroom and teachers, oh, they want to show you their A students, right. That kid gonna be an A student regardless whether or not you teach them anything because they just driven. How about those kids that come in here year that start out? Maybe these felon don't have confidence. Not quite as gifted. Now are your A students helping those kids become better? Are you working as a team? That's what I always try to promote. You know, you have, I always had the team within teams. I wanted everyone in our organization. We didn't have any PIs. I was convinced that there's no phase in the world. Some people just don't know how to win, how to succeed. So I always looked across everyone because it was the sum of the whole. And I think that's what we have to be able to give back and help each other, you know, to make each other strong. So I just never bought into the, you know, 20 of the people doing 80 of the work of the 18 to B team concept. We all one team. And we're going to balance out, you know, with God giving skills to make everyone on the team better and appreciate each other. So that's what has always worked for me. Every time I had command, even before I became a commanding officer, I had a department, you know, that I oversaw. I had a division before that. And it's always been the same. That just has worked for me throughout and the same thing with sports. You know, everyone has something to offer. You just got to build them. Everyone was not as fast on the football team, but they had something to offer. Otherwise they would put the uniform on every day.

Indeed. And from having worked, I've done some work for the Marines, for the Marine Corps. And, and which is a, an aspect of the Navy Sprites.

Oh, absolutely, yes. They like to say they, the men department of the Navy. You don't have to challenge that, though.

I'm not going to get into that. But I will say this. The, the concept that came up, I remember when I was, I was working with, with a group of, of officers and, and we, we were talking about just not leaving anybody behind. Like the idea.

Yes, right.

You know, you don't leave a man behind, you don't leave a woman behind, so you don't leave anybody behind. And I think that's that concept. I am wearing. Well, I'm wearing my resilience shirt today, but I got another one that says got your back.

And that's super.

Probably would have even been better for this conversation because, but, but I think that's so from a cultural standpoint, to me, that's, that's, that's a really important thing that people can feel that.

Yes.

If they could say nothing else, they could say, I know, I know where I go to work, where I put my service and where I put my time in. It's, it's an environment where people have my back.

Exactly. That's important. We have, we have to respect each other and you know, look for, that's why I said we got to get out of, get away from our own prisms and our own beliefs sometimes and just really try to understand each other regardless, you know, where people, you know, are from. So we have to better job that. And I said operative time is connecting and appreciating each other.

When we learn. I don't want to say if, but, but Anthony, when we learn how to do that, I hope we're, I hope we're, I hope we're, I hope it's in our lifetimes, honestly, because, because we as a species just haven't figured this one out yet.

Exactly.

And, and it is, it's, it could break, it could break your heart every single day because it's, you know, but you got to, to. Yeah, I, I, I'm a hopeful, I have a hopeful heart. As my, my, as my wife would remind me. You gotta, I gotta have a hopeful, hopeful heart.

Well, we'll get there. You know, like, as long as you got people like yourself in the world, you know, and just making a difference. I was talking with a co worker today and, and he's been called to do a speech some way. He's a retired admiral. And he said, yeah, I really want to do this, but, you know, people like you need to be heard. There's a lot of people out there speaking and doing stuff. I said, and you very. Even kill. I said, you know, you. You do the kind of disserv. Not one of the people that's hurt. I know it's not. You know, you don't like, be front and center. You don't like a lot of attention because there's so much to offer. And once we get people like that, people like yourself, you know, that's more vocal, I think we'll make some progress, you know, and sometimes we can only measure progress, you know, so.

Yeah, well, it is a good thing that, that it's so easy for everybody to sort of be a broadcaster these days that it's possible to have a voice just by sticking a mic in your. In front of you, all that good stuff. But I gotta say, once again, I'll be end. As I began to say. Dr. Simmons has been a pleasure to speak with you today, and I appreciate your insights and your time and, And I just want to. Yeah, I want to. I want to wish you well on your. On your continued journey. And, and. And I'll say this. Is there. Is there one thing that you do on a. On a ritual basis, daily basis, whatever it might be, that that keeps you. Keeps you resilient? How you define that word?

Yes, I do. I really. I read. I. I read A Devotion every day, you know, and it just. I always think the Bible is the biggest, you know, book of leadership, the most powerful book on leadership. And almost like every day, whatever scripture I read, it applies to where I am that day. So. And I do that before I open my computer, before I do anything. I've been doing it for about three years now, and it's probably one of the best, you know, things that I. Rituals I ever started as.

Yes, I have something a similar, Similar practice. And, you know, it's very personal. Obviously not everybody is listening to this is gonna, you know, it's gonna be a thing for them. And some people probably nod in their head going, yeah, it's my. It's like my. My secret weapon, you know, it. It's like when, when you have that, that start. For me, when I have that start to the day and, and it's not, you know, it's. It is so personal that there's so many things that. That can. That are set into motion really from that. That start starting off with sort of getting back to the truth of things. We. We all are as human beings. I mean, we all have the same basic desires, whether it's, yes, peace, happiness, love, fulfillment, prosperity, all these things. It doesn't matter where in the world you are. It doesn't matter what religion you believe in or don't believe in or, you know, your, Your politics. None of that on that level. None of that. To use your word earlier, you could be agnostic. Agnostic to all of it. It doesn't matter because it's all the same. We're all, we're all baked of that same stuff. And there's a. You know, to me, what I love about. About having a set. Practice a ritual at the beginning of the day, to be still, to sit in gratitude, maybe to read something. And I do, just like you, I read something that, that often has a. Has a reference point to something in the Bible because it is. While I'm not a Bible scholar and I'm not a particularly religious person, but I love just how, how, how potent it is, how, how tangible, how relevant real it is, even to this day. But you have to be able to connect dots. You have to be able to see through even language. That is archaic, you know, that's old.

Yes, yes.

You know, but you got to be able to assimilate that and see what the value is today. And to me, that's a. That's a. That's. It's a worthwhile practice. So I always appreciate somebody else's getting benefit out of it too.

Yeah. Yeah. Now, I, I attended Reason University for that reason, you know, because I wanted to get strong in the area. So at least ex. It's more. So. So, yes, I feel a lot better. Thanks.

Me too.

Me too.

All right, well, thank you again.

Hey, thanks, Adam, so much. Okay, A pleasure. Bye.

All right, well, I did thoroughly enjoy that conversation. And Dr. Simmons, Anthony, as he. As he permitted me to call him, no, Anthony is. He's something special. 28 years in the Navy.

He.

He is. You could hear here is incredibly insightful man and a humble man. I mean, he's really had some significant roles of.

Of.

Of leadership throughout his career and since retiring from the Navy as well. And. And yet he is just a very. Just a. One of these quiet people. Quiet leaders. Not quiet in. In the. In the sort of shy sense, but again, again, in that, that's that sense of. Of having humility, which to me is this mix of confidence without arrogance or confidence without being oppressive. You know, from, from a standpoint of how you. How you treat people, how you talk to them, your tone and where your ego intersects with all of that. And so humility, I think is vitally important. It's one of those qualities that is. Is difficult to define at times times and, and. And. And it's also something I think that we. That the. The greatest leaders have worked on have seen it as something that was worthy of their time and. And often is. Is an area that needs development. I know in my own. My own journey as a leader that has been. Has been something I've been focused on as well, but, you know, not with total success. It's a work in progress. Today. Andy and I got.

We.

We got to really get into some. Some really deep stuff when it comes to how organizations from a culture standpoint are doing today and where it is that we can create greater wellness within those organizations and, and what it takes to create champions for organizational wellness. We got to talk about trust and the value of importance of trust and where interestingly enough it might be that people are having trouble communicating and where there's communication challenges that's based on a lack of trust. That was one area that we talked about. We talked about cultural intelligence and how vital that is and where it is that in developing that agnostic belief system that meaning that you are not looking at the diversity of culture as a separation point, but rather as a commonality, as a common ground. So therefore you're agnostic to what those cultural differences might be. I think he used the Navy as a great example example of that traveling to think. He said 68 countries but wanting their. The naval presence in those places to be integrated, integrative, not to. To be intrusive, not to be just to be sort of an outsider but but more if possible woven into to the culture of the place where they were stationed where they were able to potentially even make a difference in some way. Advantage, value, provide service, be of some benefit to. To those other other people. You know, all that was just very, very telling. I love what he talked about team. That creating the team within the teams and how it is so important that. That the players, the A players in particular are. Are involved in. In helping others to succeed so that people that are less. That have less acumen for something potentially maybe because it's a lack of training or lack of experience or maybe maybe it's. It's even Some personal shortcomings that can. Can lead one person to be less successful or less. Less of. Of a performer than someone else. That, that is the job of the team to bring, to bring everybody along, to look out for one another, to, to have each other's backs. Is the term that I, that I expressed as, as how we refer to it at, at Workwell, at our company, working with other companies that you want to create cultures that are got your back cultures versus cultures where people truly do know as, as you know, like they know almost nothing else as a certainty. But what they do know for sure is that the people that they work with are there to support them, that they're there to support others, that it's. That got your back environment similar to the way on the in. In the military theater. People know that that's, that that's what keeps everybody safe. That that's the. The essence of how they can. Can achieve something as one unit when they're not worried about whether somebody behind them is. Is actually looking to see them succeed. Because they know that no one succeeds without everyone succeeding. No one gets left out or left behind. And, And I think that that where we can incorporate that to create this greater performance and a culture where, where people can truly show up as their. As the best they can be without fear and insecurity. That that's ultimately what we're after. And, and again, not to promise what is not possible. So organizations are going to go through changes. There's going to be structural changes, there's going to be restructures based on market conditions. All of that is evident, all of that is true. But we need to be truthful with people so that they have to understand from the, from the. At. At whatever stage they're at that that's potentially the case. It's a potentiality and for some it's an eventuality. But if we train, if we give people our true care, if we are helping them, supporting them to be. To rise to the best level that they're capable of rising to, then they can adapt. They can be adaptable both within the organization if their journey includes staying there, or if their journey means being being somewhere else, that they'll. They'll be not only able to survive, but they'll actually be able to thrive truly, because they've got, they've developed this, this resiliency that comes from learning how to adapt. And those are not necessarily things that we are trained or taught in school or taught by our parents or others as we are growing up. So these are skills that organizations can imbue and impart and train along the way. And it shouldn't be be in my personal opinion, and this is, you know, the caveat here is this is my personal opinion that these are not, shouldn't, shouldn't be left only to, to the, the upper reaches of leadership, that only senior level leaders get access to these types of training, but rather that we, we, we invest, that we invest the time, the energy, the resources, the money to, to allow for training to occur earlier on in, in the career path so that people do learn at, at a minimum some of these essential skills that will only hold them in good stead again if their career continues within that, that vein or whether it leads elsewhere for whatever reason. So again, love the conversation. Dr. Simmons Really I think laid out some structures for us talking about self awareness and what the importance of that is as well as in overcoming our blind spots spots and in creating organizations that, that again to the point I've just made, are coaching organizations where, where we're, we are providing people with feedback on a consistent basis so that they can know what those blind spots are and we can help them to overcome them. And so just again, so appreciate your tuning in and that, that this is hopefully something valuable for you. If it is, this episode was valuable. I would love it if you'd share it with someone else. That's always the, the greatest sort of compliment you could give is to when, when you appreciate something that you share it with someone else. Maybe it's an insight, maybe it's an idea that you'll share as well. And, and of course when you do share it, then the, the powers that be, the, you know, the algorithm that controls so much of what content shows up for us, each of us in our, in our various platforms that we are consuming content from, that this podcast will show up in more places because you've either shared it with somebody else or you've actually taken a moment to rate it to give it that, you know, four or five star rating on hopefully you, you think it was worth the five stars. But that takes time for you to do and if you do it, if you choose to do it, we so appreciate it. That is how our community has grown significantly. That's how we're able to reach more people with this message. And, and I thank you in advance for taking the time out of your very, very important work to do that for us. Lastly, something that, that I highly recommend, you know, for you and for members of your team if you're not, if you if you'd like to get a snapshot in this moment in time how resilient you are, you're, you are mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually speaking, this is act. You have access to this, it's free. And the insights are, are pretty remarkable in so many respects. But we've been able through our research to really pinpoint several things on the emotional intelligence side as, as well as in the area of spiritual resilience that, that come up consistently through our data. If you want to get access to our resilient leader assessment, just go to rankmyresilience.com rankmyresilience.com and no questions, no, no strings attached. You get 16 questions and you'll get a confidential report that is just for you. And you'll get some resources that are based on what your report has, has found and those will be vested valuable for yourself and for those around you as well as potentially anybody that you might share it with. So again, thank you so much for being a part of our community. Thank you for tuning into this show and I look forward to you getting access to more and more in the future. Again, thank you and ciao for now.

Thanks for listening. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build resilience and become change proof. Remember to leave a review on Apple podcasts and you may be featured in an upcoming episode. For more resilience tips and strategies, including support for building change proof teams, visit AdamMarkel.com to get your own free resilience assessment, go to rankmyresilience.com.