B2B Customer Experience Is All About Culture

And Amaya, when should a company engage you?

When you've been doing something for a long time, you are stuck. You don't know what to do next. That's the right moment to bring me in to help you define what would be the right next step in your cex.

Hi, I'm Adam Durrell and I'm the host of the Account Experience podcast. And if you're a regular on the AX podcast, I hope you are. You know that in every episode I like to catch up with inspiring industry leaders or thinkers that are there to help share best practices and tips to guide you and develop your own B2B account experience program. So we sit at the intersection of customer experience and B2B account management and that's why we call it account experience or AX. You know, there are relatively few practitioners in AX because B2B customer experience is a relatively niche field. So today I have a treat. We've got a real guiding star right here from the Nordics today and she's going to be shining some of her northern light on this topic and I'm going to be welcoming Anna Maya Tanen. She's the female entrepreneur who started the CX agency which is based in Helsinki in Finland. Previously she was a partner at futurelab and a management consultant with Accenture, and then before that she was with the elevator company Kona, to use a terrible pun. I know that she's going to be able to lift up all of our B2B programs here. So welcome and hello Anna Maya, how are you doing?

Hi Adam. I'm doing really fine. How are you?

I'm good. Thank you for joining us today on the Zoom from Helsinki. So look, why don't you tell us a little bit about the CX agency and tell us why you started it.

Yeah, so I've been working in the customer experience field for some 12, 13 years now and originally I joined Customer Experience as an in house CEX program manager. So working in gone, the global elevator and escalator company and that was my starting point for the world of customer experience. I started from nps, but quickly throughout the years elevated that program towards more kind of like understanding about customer journeys and also the ways of working, like how to close the loop with the customer, how to really get actionable insight from the feedback and put that insight into action, start actually changing the experience. So that was a great also cultural experience, like how you change kind of a global matrix organization. And after that I joined the consulting world and the reason why I started my own business was that I noticed that there seemed to be a focused offering on the B2B side. So most of these cases and examples, they always seem to come from the consumer world, like Amazon, et cetera. And I noticed that when I worked with these B2B companies that these consumer cases, they never really resonated with the B2B reality. And they were always eager to hear that. What did you do back at Kone or what you have done with your other B2B customers? And that was the moment that I decided to break on my own and start my own company and really focus on the B2B side.

Now it's really nice to meet someone who's really interested in B2 into the B2B world. I agree there are very many differences between B2C and B2B. And I'm going to put it out there. I think B2B buys are almost more emotional than B2C. There's a lot more human capital involved in a sale, for example. And of course, that leads into the fact that you have to have the right culture in the organization to have customer experience. And I know that's something you're super interested in. It's very much on your mind at the moment, isn't it? About culture. Why don't you tell us a little bit about what you're. What you've been working on?

You're absolutely right there. And culture is definitely something that I often tell to my clients that actually culture, not your product, comes first when your customers interact with you. And oftentimes companies don't pay enough attention to culture. It seems we start from the processes. We start from nps. We start from certain things that are maybe more familiar for us to manage in terms of programs, et cetera. And then it seems as culture is some kind of an afterthought that, hey, okay, we need to also think about the culture, how we get people involved. So instead of like putting culture last, I want to challenge my customers to start from the culture and really, really from that understanding that what kind of culture we want to build in this company. What does this customer centricity mean to us as a company and not just as a company, but also as individuals.

Well, I just want to repeat that back to make sure that I got this, because every time when people think about a customer experience, program, or they always think about improving process or product or services or training. So you're saying that's not the place you should start first, you should really think about the culture.

Yes, this is definitely what I'm saying. But Oftentimes it is easier to start from the processes and metrics and I get that. And many of my clients are in a situation that they tell me that, look, we have been measuring NPS for 10 years now, but we're not seeing any changes or our response rates are dropping or we have mapped the customer journeys. But then the development projects ended and we didn't get kind of any continuous ways of working around the journey. So customer understanding. So then we go back to the drawing board and we start from the really basic questions that what does customer experience mean to us and what kind of experience we would like to offer to our customers and also to our employees. Tell that this is the kind of the expectations to what the customers. And I often also tell that let's work with the culture and with the employees from the beginning. Let's not design the CX vision or ways of working with a small group of people, but let's involve different people working in the frontline, in the management, even in the functions that are normally not up the front and center with the customer, like R and D or it. Let's all ensure that they are part of the development. So we start from the culture by kind of like ensuring that we build with the organization and not for the organization, if you get what I mean.

I can see that. So where did you get the insights on this from? Was this your consulting work or when you're at Kona, can you tell me a little bit about what started your journey into really adopting culture?

I think it actually started already in the Konet times and even I've witnessed many different B2B companies and their challenges. I still take most of my learnings on the cultural change and change management from the time that I was doing these things in house and getting my own hands dirty. So I think back in the days when I worked in Gone, there was a strong emphasis and still is on the employee experience and importance of of the employees and their role in customer and customer experience and the CEO of the company. When I started with KONE Back in 2012, Mati Allah, he used to famously say that he wants to first hear every team's latest employee experience results and latest NPS results. And then we're going to discuss about the business results. And I think it kind of like set the example to everybody that we start from employees, then we move on to customers and then we look at the numbers. And what I see happening in many companies is that we talk a lot about customers, but then when you go into a sales meeting for instance, customer is not there. So we just talk about the numbers and I think it's leading by example. Those kind of things that you have seen firsthand, how they work and how they have the power to really motivate people to do things differently. Those kind of learnings then are easier to recommend as a consultant once. Once you have seen that they actually work in practice.

Yeah, I love it when a CEO talks the numbers and brings NPS into it and talks about customers because then you realize that the culture is set from the top. But you know, one of the things I've been following your by the way, you have an excellent newsletter. I want to make sure that everybody gets a chance to read that. It's called B2B CX Insights and you can follow it on LinkedIn. I'll put a note in the show notes about it. You talk about how you had this experience of visiting customers and you had this really great interaction with the customers. But you said how can you bring the essence of that interaction back to the rest of the business? Can you tell us a little bit more about what do you mean by that?

Yeah, thanks for asking, Adam. That's actually something that I remember very vividly from years ago. I was visiting the local Connect office in Paris and I got to ride along a key account manager doing his daily customer visits. And as we were driving from one customer to another, I just like witnessed him discussing about these customers and all this information he had about them. Like he seemed to know everything these customers had expressed to him during the years. Like even all of those, like past things and like present things. And he had so many much wisdom. Like for him, looking at the feedback from an NPS survey wasn't that relevant because he knows his customers so well. But then how to combine that information with the similar inside other account managers from their customers? That's the challenge. And the frontline has so much wisdom. But oftentimes we people who sit in the corporate side, we don't visit the frontline. We don't see those daily interactions. So we don't see the, say, the reality that happens there on the ground. So it was a really good example for me to be there for a day and see what actually happens with the customer and also understand this tremendous silent knowledge that these account managers have about their customer preferences.

I like the phrase silent knowledge. I've also experienced that in many parts of my working career and I see in our clients today. You have this fantastic rapport between a customer and a frontline person, but you're right. There's no way of bringing that back into the CRM system or the company culture. And it works the other way because often CEOs or other people are kind of suspicious that the sales director will say I know everything about my clients through my team and they will put up barriers, you know, to say keep out. So don't survey my customers because we know it right. You've probably seen that before. But somehow you need to bridge that silo to bring in to bring the two halves of the business together. So how do companies go about doing that? How do they make that into their culture?

That's a really excellent question. And I think here we actually then come to those processes once again. And it's true that the key account managers, they are busy people, they don't always have time to write down everything in CRM. And even if they would, there wouldn't be enough space to kind of put that whole history of the customer there. So we need to find ways how to get that silent information into use. And what I have seen working really well is this inner and outer process. So how we actually communicate not just to the customer, but internally that what we have learned from the customer feedback. And recently the past year I have had a chance to help three different B2B companies in defining these outer loop processes that we have really looked into ways that how we can get this silent information from the frontline, from those key account managers that handle this inner loop discusses these immediate concerns, customer expectations, wishes and so on. How we get that wisdom into the discussion with the rest of the organization. Let's say we want to improve our customers experience during deliveries or during sales. So let's have those people who actually there on the ground part of those discussions where we start to go through those root cause issues or those bigger findings like we can see lack of communication. A very typical paid body B2B customer experience. Oftentimes lack of communication in delivery doesn't necessarily mean that we don't communicate about the delivery times. It can mean that what we have communicated back in the sales to a different customer profile is not translated to the people who are responsible of the delivery. So customer had certain expectations, we didn't know we didn't transfer the information. So many times we need to break these silos not just internally but also at the customer side, ensuring that the customer also passes the information forward, helping the customer in that process. And I think we cannot change anything as an organization if we don't take the learnings from that. Let's say Frontline people who work with the customer. If we don't take those learnings and understand what happens there in the crowd, otherwise we are just like too much in the high level in the discussion.

You're absolutely right about that.

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I mean, you've often worked with executives on the other side of it, so how do you, how can you encourage that knowledge to take place? Because as I said, salespeople, look, maybe even customers are somewhat suspicious of why are you asking me? Why are you asking my customer? So you need to provide the value loop for the customer and also the frontline salesperson about why you're doing this. So can you talk a little bit about how you've brought that to life in the organizations you've been in?

That's a really good question. And what I found by self working is you have to discuss with the sales, you have to discuss with the frontline why you are doing this, why you are contacting their customers, and that it's not about them. It's not about measuring their performance with the customer. It's about understanding how as a company we perform in certain topics like proactiveness or communication or trust. So it doesn't necessarily mean that we want to understand how Adam is performing with his customers or how Annemaya is performing. We want to understand how we perform Overall, as a company and typically this, let's say this kind of like calm start down some of the worries that the frontline can experience when we actually like reaching out to their customers and talking with their customers. And regarding the CE level and the executives, what I have found is that there seems to be a big gap between the frontline and the C level. So the C level often says that we have a really good customer experience. And when digging in a little bit deeper, they're often talking about the frontline. Actually that, yes, in the front line we have a really good customer experience. So the experience between individuals, between that key account manager, their customers, it's often really good one. If it's not good one, then the customer will leave. But it's not enough to have a good experience one to one. We need to also as an organization identify those certain issues that we are repetitively doing in a way that frustrates our customers and then we help this frontline to do their job better.

Yeah, so there you're identifying the processes that you can reduce the friction on that then helps that customer interaction.

Yeah, I mean, it's often so frustrating for the frontline people if they have to keep on kind of like handling the similar complaints over and over again. And if they don't get that communication back that hey, we're going to do something about this, for instance, that our invoices are difficult to understand. I have discussed about this topic with X amount of customers during the years, but nothing is happening. This is like a typical frustration in the frontline that they feel that they don't have the mandate to change things. They can only just handle that interaction in the best possible way. So that's why we need the rest of the organization on board and we need them to understand that we actually here to serve the frontline and help the frontline to do their job in a best way.

Yeah, I've got one of my favorite clients says there are two roles in our company. One is the people that sell and the others is the people that help the people that sell. And I think it's really nice.

Exactly.

Yeah. I want to pick up on your point about frustration about the front line getting frustrate because let's face it, if you get frustrated as an employee, you either give up or you quit. Right. So I want to bring up the connection between employee engagement and customer engagement. And I know this is a real passion of yours. So can you talk a little bit about how you've been, how you think about those two going hand in hand.

Yeah, for sure. Let's say the typical approach is that many companies, they want to analyze how these two metrics go hand in hand. So we have employee engagement metrics like enps and then we have customer loyalty metrics like nps. And many companies are comparing these metrics and that's what I have always done in the past, seeing that there is a strong correlation that actually the teams that have high engagement, they also perform best in NPS study, etc. But once again I think we have to go in a little bit deeper level to understand that. What are the topics specifically that seem to drive the employee engagement and the customer engagement? Topics like inclusion or transparency, communication. What are the topics that really seem to matter to our employees and correlate positively then in the work they do with the customer? So there's a lot to do in that area. And the starting point is often to start from the data, look at the findings, look at the topics that seem to go hand in hand, but also look at the areas where actually the core employee engagement is impacting customer experience negatively. So we oftentimes look at these positive examples, but then at the same time showing this, let's say risk to the management can be even more powerful. Business case that we have these employees, they are not happy. Two third of our employees are not happy. This is the effect on the customer experience. So we have to do something about this.

Yeah, you also brought a stat to my attention which I thought was really interesting. So I think it was from IBM where they said that 2/3 of your client experience scores are influenced by employee engagement, is that right?

Yeah, that was a case study from IBM and there are a lot of similar case studies out there. And I think it just shows that when we start from the data, we start to build also that credibility towards the C level that hey, these things, they matter. So it's not just buzzwords but topics that really matter. And we can see from the data that if we improve our employees well being and engagement, it has positive impact on the customer experience.

Yeah, I realize there's a link between it. You know, we say in the business, don't we, that happy employees equals happy customers. But to see such a strong link of 2/3, that's really interesting. Can I share a little anecdote that I had with one of my clients? They also measure the issues on the employee side and the issues with the customer side and put them together. And what they're looking for is areas, for example, where the customers are have a very high happiness on one particular driver and the employees don't. You know, the employees think you're not doing so well and that's a really good way of going back to your employee base to say look, you might not realize it but our customers love this, you shouldn't feel so bad about it. And then the other side of it is where you might have some complacency that the employees think they're doing really well in one area and the customers think you're doing less. So I think those are really interesting areas to compare. So really fertile grounds.

That's a super interesting point and also about these gaps that we often think that customers think this way but they don't necessarily think this way or what I have also witnessed is that organizations the C level can say things like we put too much focus on the sales, we have two large teams working with the tenders, we should like simplify this, we shouldn't like offer this kind of service during the tendering, we should use more self service channels, etc. Then discussing with the customers. Customers say that hey, I really appreciate this that you bring this technical and commercial expertise together in the tendering. You like provide me a little bit extra, a little bit more than I even asked. And it creates this confidence and trust that if I choose you, you are going to like ensure that the next steps go smoothly as well. So this is actually from a real life client case that when I discussed with the sales at the C level and with the customer, they all saw the sales process very differently and it helped the management to see that what customers valued actually was worth keeping and worth maintaining.

That's really good Tim. What the customers value is worth keeping and maintaining. When you go into an organization for the first time, Adam, I. What are some of the things you start with? What are the challenges that you tackle first?

Well, oftentimes the challenges are that these companies have been doing something for some time, let's say measuring nps, but in a way they got a bit stuck in their development and they don't know where to go next. So I see customer experience as a growth path in a way that you start from somewhere and then the ultimate goal is of course this customer centric organization where CX is in your DNA, all these buzzwords, but you don't get there overnight. So you need the processes, you need the competencies, you need the motivation and you need that culture and you need to start building that systematically. So I guess when I come in the customers are in a way or another, they are stuck with their current program and current thinking. And they just need that inspiration and guidance that how to go forward from here.

Good answer. So you're the shake up element. You're there to really. I mean, you don't look it, you look quite mild mannered, but I bet there's a sort of tough Viking interior that is not afraid to challenge them. So if you were to give anybody who's on the podcast today a few pointers for their program, could you. Are there sort of three tips that you could give somebody? You know where you'd start to shake it up if they can't bring you in immediately?

Yeah, I'm thinking that more and more I work with customer experience more. I recommend my customers to always look at the big picture, what's happening in their organization. And the C level has a short bandwidth, they have short attention and they have limited budget. So instead of competing with different initiatives, like what's happening on the digital transformation, what's happening on sustainability, on employee experience, et cetera, instead of competing, try to align CEX with these other initiatives so you can show how customer experience is actually supporting the organization in reaching its other targets. Digital Transformation and CeX a couple of years ago seemed to be clashing in many companies that the investments happened on the digital sales, et cetera. And CEX was something that was kind of like competing for that same money. So don't compete, but try to align, try to show the dependencies. And easier to say than do it, but that's definitely something that helps you to establish that business case to the management. Another thing that I always recommend my customers to do is that involve as many people as possible when you are developing that vision or that measurement model or those ways of working. And not just the kind of the C level or the management people, but also people who work in the frontline, people who work in positions that normally are not involved. Like I have involved people working in quality organizations in R and D and in it, in hr, in communications, then of course the user suspects businesses. But if we kind of ignore these other people, then the change that we are trying to drive is going to be targeted to that very small amount of people. So think about the big picture once again, that you want to change the company and the culture. So you cannot like do these things with a small amount of people. And yeah, I think those would be definitely my kind of like recommendations. And maybe a third point is to start from somewhere and not to get too afraid to start, even if it would be just to kind of have the initial discussions with your management that what's the role of customer experience in our company? We see customers in our strategy, but what does it mean specifically interview those people, have those discussions. Because oftentimes people interpret customer experience very differently, depending who you ask. So start those dialogues, start those discussions with your key people to understand where they are, where their thinking is.

Oh, I really like that. I'm just going to see if I summarize these correctly. So the first one was, remember that C Suite people have short attention spans. I completely agree with that and make sure that you're delivering the message in small chunks. The second, I'm going to reinterpret this. It's like find your tribe, right? You've got to find your collaborators who are prepared to work for the big picture and the culture of the organization. I hope I got that right. And the third one was have courage, get over the fear of doing it. Just jump right in, start somewhere and then start to change the culture. How did I do, Anna? Maya? Did I get well?

Better than I did? Yes. Better summary?

Well, I did have a chance.

In my next newsletter.

Well, I think that's probably a good place to end it up. As I said, it's super speaking to you, Adam. I've been following your newsletter for some time. As I said, you're one of the very few B2B voices out there that really thinks about culture and programs, and I love it. The latest issue is a particularly good read. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about about B. CX Insights, your organization?

Well, first of all, thank you very much for inviting me here and it was an amazing honor to be featured in your podcast and I've been likewise following you for a long time. And yeah, I mean, I Love writing about B2B.CX, talking about it. So feel free to follow on LinkedIn and get in touch. So always happy to get new people in my network.

Thanks so much, Anna, Maya, it's been a real pleasure speaking with you today and I hope we can catch up very soon. Take care.

Likewise, Adam. Thank you.