Breaking Glass: Getting from 6 to 60 NPS in Two Years With Martin Troughton, Safestyle

Hi, I'm Adam Durrell. I'm the host of the Account Experience podcast. You know, if you've listened to us before, that we sit at the intersection of B2B account management and customer experience. That's why we call ourselves Account Experience. And every week I get to talk to an industry leader to share practices and hear their tips on helping you develop your program. So if you like what you listen to, don't forget to review and also share this. It really help spread the open source word that we do today. I'm delighted to be speaking with Martin Troughton. He's the marketing director of Safe Style uk, which is the number one replacement door and window maker in the uk. Martin will tell us more about how they get to that. Now, earlier on I was talking with marketing director Ian on my side. So we tried to come up with as many puns as possible. And we were going to say they might make double glazing, but they're certainly not insulating themselves from customer comments. And to recognize that churn is really not the pain that you might think it is, we're going to find out from Martin on their amazing journey with a net promoter evolution. It's not for nothing I'm the dad joke champion in the office. Welcome, Martin, to the Account Experience podcast. How you doing?

Hi there. Yeah, no. Having a lovely day here in Woodbridge in Suffolk in England.

Oh, that's lovely. And headquarters is up in Bradford, right?

Yeah, yeah, we're based in Bradford. The business was originally formed in Bradford. Good Yorkshire business. It's Yorkshire born and bred, but it has spread through the UK. It started 30 years ago and it started in its hometown and grew and grew and grew. So quite an interesting industry, double glazing companies. There's only three big ones and we're the last one to that party. It was Anglian and Everest, which are the big brands. We're the only other national player. Everything else is very regional. So it's an interesting business. UK's largest double glazing company, in fact, larger than the other two put together, but the smaller of the three brands.

You know, it seems like you've come through the whole Covid thing going on, growth is back and you're back on television with the Eric Harnessments.

Yeah, yeah. And you know what? Covid was, in a weird way, very, very good for us as a business because we continued to trade all the way through it and there was a lot of excess demand. So for a long time we could continue to install, which was good for our customers. They placed their orders, we could fulfill those orders. And because you were fitting from the outside, it was fine. So we didn't sell for a little while. And then when we did start selling again, that latent demand was huge. And maybe we hadn't realized that the opposition is not the other businesses. It's the alternative things people can spend their money on. And in particular, a cruise ship. You couldn't go on a cruise ship, so you change your windows. Well, that was good for our industry, bad for the cruise ships. And yeah, so it's opened up our eyes to what is the real competition in the market.

That's really fascinating. I want to cover so much on this podcast that we're going to do, but I want to really touch on how you've embraced the Net promoter. From my point of view of looking the outside, you know, double glazing is probably not the most. It's not the industry people think of when they think of customer experience, because there's always so many stories about people have been burned and you've really tried to have this customer focus thing to stay away from that. That's really what I'd love to hear about in your story.

Yeah. I mean, thank God for lawyers and politicians. Otherwise we'd be really derided as a whole industry. We'd be the top of that tree. But no, it's got a poor reputation and we are aiming to change that. The whole industry has a checkered pass. There's a thing called Phoenixing where they basically sell a lot of windows, take a lot of deposits, and then just fold up the business and start again tomorrow. I heard of one the other day which was. Did this literally a few weeks ago. And it was. I can't remember the town, let's call it Bolton Windows and Doors. And they close and opened as Bolton's Doors and Windows. And it's like, really? And the most common name in double glazing is Phoenix Windows, where they're literally signaling to the consumer what they're going to do, which is just bizarre. But, yeah, bad reputation, but we're not like that. We've never done that. With 30 years old as a business and the largest in the uk, we've grown and grown and grown by geography. So our heartland is our strongest area and we call it Heartland. We have Heartland and then we have our hinterland and then we have Frontier, and that's where the brand has grown and existed for longer.

I want to go. I want to go a bit deeper in this because, you know, you really touch on a Point that, by the way, we see in many industries, which is the salesperson goes in, makes a sale and then goes off and forgets it. And you know, we see in many industries now this a change of focus, which is about seeing the customer as a much longer partnership.

Yeah.

Just with, you know, with a, with a longer revenue stream, but also as a referral type business, you know, and this is. I'm always fascinated by it. You really seem to have moved into this realm with, with safe style. How is that working out for you?

Well, the referral part is fundamental. All the small businesses, they don't generate, they don't, they don't compete with us in advertising terms. They're generating one customer who generates another customer who generates another customer. It's all recommendation for the millions. Millions, but you know, the tens of thousands, thousands of small businesses that we compete against. I mean, nobody taught this industry Pareto's law. The big three, which are the only national ones, actually only represent 20% of the market. The over 80% is tiny little businesses, not one of which is more than half a percent of the market. So they're very, very small. And they build organically because it's a very low barrier to entry. But they do it by doing a great job for each customer. When you try and replicate that at scale, it can be a challenge. We're doing a thousand installations every week. Wow. And we've got to treat each one perfectly. I mean, my job is to generate the leads for the Salesforce. I have to generate 6,000 leads per week for the salesforce. They convert them at an incredible level and then we install. And it's the installation that's most critical. Obviously. I mean, Net promoter taught us that particularly it's the quality of the installation, the quality of the installers and their approach to the customer because they're that last interaction in the chain. The salesman's long forgotten. And it's an interesting industry also because you mentioned two revenue streams there, you know, that recurring revenue from the same customer or the recommendation revenue in our industry. Recurring revenue, yeah. Once every 15, 20 years, if you're lucky. That's not very recurring. We don't get a lot of recurring revenue, but the recommendation is fundamental to us. And understanding that bought versus earned revenue stream, as Fred might call it, is a fundamental part of our business and we're really opening our eyes to that. So that customer experience is fundamental.

Well, let's really drill down into that because you've been on your Net promoter journey for a few years now, right?

And you've 18 months. Yeah, yeah.

But in that time you've seen it looks to me like an amazing evolution. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah. I mean, I suppose you've got a thousand customers every week coming in. And you know what? The only ones with a voice prior to Net Promoter Score were the ones complaining to us. And actually the business was afraid of Net Promoter Score for a long time because all they ever heard was the bad stories. They never heard the good stories. Yeah, there was no balance in that voice. It was always somebody screaming at the cheap exec saying, I can't believe what you've done to my house. Because with a thousand customers you're going to get it wrong occasionally you're going to put it right and that's fine. But everything is bespoke. There is no more bespoke product on the planet than your windows because we have to go and measure them. You know, we offer 6 billion options of front door. If you take the designs that we offer and the colors and the handles and the, you know, and that's 6 billion before we make it to measure.

So there's a lot to go wrong, right?

Yeah. And that's also why you need a salesman. He'll help you guide you through the 6 billion options.

If I'm replaying this back the way that the company was before is that the complaints were what drove the know things going. They're always negative and if any, my experience is anything to go with the CEO is come down on the staff like a ton of bricks and you've got to fix this now. Right. So culture of fear of feedback going through the organization.

Am I right? Yeah. And that belief of I can't believe we get it so wrong so often, but it's like, well, that might have been, you know, 1% of customers where we got it wrong. Well that's 10 screaming angry customers every week. But we weren't listening to the 990 that were very happy. So it's all about the voice of the consumer and getting it to the forefront of our business. And Net Promoter and your product in particular, your systems helped us do that. So we did some trials back end of 2020, we did about three months trials and really learned about the system, how to deliver it, how to structure it all. And then we started with a Vengeance from January 1, 2021 and our score was a pretty dismal 9. Actually it was 9 in the trials it was as low as 6, but it was 9. But having the voice of the Consumer, we learn so much so quickly. And also our installers, they're going out to see a thousand customers every week with no recourse, no feedback on how they've done. Yeah, yeah. Only the ones where it was screaming at them because it had gone wrong or, you know, we turned up and somebody mismeasured a window or the scaffolding had been there for two weeks beforehand, the customer was angry. We never got any of this feedback.

Was there one compelling event that made you start on this? What was the catalyst that switched you from the we're going from complaints to going proactively and asking customers for feedback?

Well, I wanted to do it from day one. Um, I, I, I, my, my background is previously, I'd, I'll give you a good pun here, Adam. My, my career is triple blazed because I was marketing director at Anglian Everest and now safestyle, so I have a triple blazed career. Um, and I, I had experienced net promoter score at Everest and when I joined Safe Style, I absolutely believed in it and wanted it. But there was this fear in the business and maybe it was the fact that I said, look, let me trial it, let me trial it. So we started small. They started to see positivity from it. They were afraid of it, but they started to say, oh, hang on a minute, we're getting it right a lot more than we're getting it wrong, aren't we? What's going on here? And actually the feedback enabled us to start to respond, to start to change small things, which made massive differences in the business.

Why don't we go into that? Because to go on such a. Well, hang on, you've not really told us where you're going yet. So you started it.

No, we haven't finished, we're not finished yet. We've got further to go.

Can you share where you're at now?

Yeah, well, this month we're currently running at 55. We've run at 61 in certain periods. But very, very quickly from that January 9th, by August, we got to a 46, which was a phenomenal turnaround and that was by having that voice to the consumer. So our guys go to their branch, they collect their jobs and they go to a customer and then they come back and they get some more. They never really got any feedback. Now the first thing that happens when they come back into a branch, they're told how they did on the previous one and told, well done, that was good. Or, oh, you didn't mention that you were going to drop off an extra set of keys to the customer. And it's little things that they weren't failing to communicate back because they were interested in the next job, not the previous one. And it's really helped the consumer have a voice and just tell us those little niggles, those little things which we can put right quite simply.

That's amazing. What are some of the things that you learned along the way? Because, I mean, that's a really dramatic jump that you did. You mentioned.

Yeah, I think the feedback is the main thing to the. The guys. But then there are little things that we just didn't realize, you know, you know, all our keys for our windows. Yeah, we. We weren't leaving enough sets of keys. They were ringing us back and saying, you said you'd get me an extra set of keys. And of course, what we did was they rang into customer service, they. They took the order, they sent it back to the depot, who said, oh, we'll drop your second. It just never happened. It fell down. Now, if you ring in, you get a set of keys, they put in an envelope and they send them you. So it's just simple things like that or the arrival. That's probably the best example, the arrival at a customer. So you've got a van with two guys eager to fit all these windows. They pull up outside, a customer, one of them goes and says hello to the customer, knocks on the door. The other one quickly starts unloading everything all over the drive. And he's, you know, creating a bit of chaos, to be brutally honest, because it's, you know, there's a lot of stuff. And then the guy speaking to the customer goes. She goes, oh, you can't park there. I need to get out in a minute and I can't get out. Or. Or you can't park there because the neighbor's going to be really angry with you from part that, all of this. And he's going, well, we'll have to load the van up again now we're half online. And it was like this conflict at part one. We've only been there for two minutes and we've upset the customer and off the street. So we started to see that feedback come back in the feedback on NPS where they were giving us comments about, oh, can't believe he parked so discourteously. And he was so grumpy when I told him to load his van again and move his bit. And he was like, whoa, what's going on here? So all we did was retrained every fitting team to arrive, talk to the customer about where's a convenient place to park? Do they need to go out today? Is there anything, is there anywhere that would be suitable to park and unload? And then they unload and they don't offend the customer. You know, I reckon that's five or six percentage points on our net promoter score because we don't see that issue anymore and it was just driving our scores down because of a lack of simplicity and talking to the consumer. Silly little things.

Yeah, I know, it's really amazing, isn't it? But that's the moment of truth when you go and see the customer for the first time. So that is an incredible insight, Martin. Thanks for sharing that.

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What was it like when you started training the teams on that? Were they receptive to that feedback? Were they, you know, how did that sink in? Because it can be quite confronting when you give people feedback like that.

Yeah. And you know, I'm done. There's the sanitized version. They were doing other things that were a bit annoying as well, to be brutally honest, but it was. But there's nowhere to hide, is there? And it's not. It's like, look, this is what happened. This is the customer's view on it. You know, we need to change our behaviors. And you know what, Nobody goes to work to do a bad job. But if you're not told what that bad job looks like and what you need to do to put it right, you're never going to put it right. So it's allowed us to get that dialogue and feedback going. And we've got some great guys. They don't go to work to upset people, but because we weren't telling them where they were getting it wrong, they were upsetting a few customers unnecessarily. Clearly unnecessarily.

Do you think you also somewhat elevated their pleasure in working also? Because it's quite interesting to hear that, you know, just a few things. This makes it a better environment to work. Were there other positive impacts that you had doing this?

Yeah, I think they genuinely cared. I mean, they'd go into branches now asking was there any feedback? Whereas before. Yeah, they weren't interested. They were, yeah. They were just, where's my next job? Not how's it done? And every depot sees it as we produce league tables. We've got 15 depots across country. There's the league table of your score. Well done. You know, and we don't. And we don't bribe it, we don't reward it in that way. We just show our appreciation and say thank you. You know, we take, take them out for dinner if they're top of the league as a certain moment or if they've made the most recovery, but not, not a specific bribe. An unexpected thank you for that response.

What a great story. And I'm also guessing that because, you know, if your net promoters in your 40s and 50s, that must be the majority of feedback you get is very positive. Yeah, I mean, that was such an impact. Going from a complete environment to, you know, wow, people really like us. Did that change the culture at all?

Yeah, I mean, this month, yeah, we're at 67%, nines and tens promoters, you know, that's good for a bespoke product. That's pretty impressive, really. And we're about 13% negative, which we try and turn around and resurvey as well. So we do turn around a lot of those customers very, very quickly. And there's some things that are out of our control. You know, you arrive and they discover asbestos in the soffit when they're doing windows. You know, that's dangerous and we have to treat it properly. We have to isolate that situation. And if we didn't isolate that situation, if we disrupted it. Asbestos in a house means that you have to rip up all the carpets, throw away every possession of that customer. You have to decontaminate the house. So you put them in a hotel for three months. So if they understood the implication of us continuing versus us saying, look, we just need to slow this down a bit, it's going to take a week, we're going to cover it up, we're going to get it properly removed and then we can restart the job. Still annoys people, but it's a lot better than the alternative and a lot better than the little guy who might just carry on and not let you know about it until 30 years later when you've got asbestosis or it's in your children's bedrooms. It's a difficult challenge at times to navigate the consumer experience.

But I agree with what you're saying. It's somehow that human touch of just telling people the bad news. If you hide it, you've got to use that opportunity to do it. But I'm just still processing the number of promoters that you're getting. That's awesome. So I'm guessing that must be a huge financial value to you, right? I mean, are you using that as.

Part of your program? Hence Fred's latest book is so important to us to really understand how to. How to harvest that, how to. Without being crass about it. You know, we don't want to, you know, recommendations are very, very important to us and that word of mouth, but how do we stimulate that without being crass? That's what we're grappling with at the moment. But fundamentally, if you do a good job, people talk about it and we quantifying it's our next challenge. Really.

Yeah. And I think it's lovely. And it sounds so simple. That point about just turning up and saying, hey, is it okay if I park here? That makes all the difference. That's what makes people talk about the lovely experience I had. You know, that's. I really agree. That's what creates a magical experience. And well done on that.

It's even things like uniforms. You know, we now provide uniforms before and we used to see these comments. They looked a bit scruffy or the one that really got me. When they turned up, they were wearing Anglian uniforms. And it's like, how the hell did that happen? And we found out it was a team that we'd recently recruited and they decided to put their old uniform on because clearly our badge or their it was irrelevant. So knowing that wearing the badge is important. And we'll give you uniforms and they're clean uniforms and they're properly turned over. I mean, we buy more dust sheets than any other company in the UK because dust sheets get dirty. So we replace them more because you turn up with a nice fresh dust sheet, the customer's impressed. Simple things.

I'm going to use that in a future trivia quiz. Who buys most dust sheets in the uk? Let me change the tax slightly because I know that you had a challenge in your business earlier this year when you. You know, I don't know if you're. If you're able to talk about that stuff, but.

Yeah, yeah.

And how did that affect you and the bit and the whole customer experience program that you had?

Yeah, well, it definitely set us back dramatically. So. So the. The event you're talking about is the cyber attack. We had a cyber attack late January. It's well publicized. It's because we're a plc, we had to declare it to the market. It's affected our share price. It's cost us £4 million in costs during that period, and that's the declared amount to the stock market. So it's not a false claim, but Net Promoter took a big, big hit because our service. What happened was that the virus that they infected us with meant that we had to shut every machine down and start rebuilding them. So the connectivity between departments was severely hampered. So an example would be if you went to a customer's and you installed the windows and one of the windows needed replacing because it was damaged in transit. For example, now currently we can remake that in 24 hours and it'll be there. And a customer might not even know there was a problem because we're spitting over three days. They checked the windows the first day they saw the problem. Didn't matter when you ruin the connectivity. In our business a remake was taking a month. Oh wow. So suddenly the customer experience was hugely damaged. So we started January and we can isolate our net promoter by week. So we were plodding along with a 60. We were ecstatic. We had a 60 followed by a 61 in the first two weeks of January. And then the cyber attack hit the back end of the following week and it was 54. The following week our net promoter fell to 8. The week after that it fell to minus 9. After that, minus 2, 10, 38, 34, 62. And we could just see that crash was because the communication in the business was so hampered and it affected our communication with the customer. All our phone lines, everything's computerized so all our phone lines were down. So if the customer wanted to talk to us, forget it, couldn't talk to us, could not reach us because our lines are down. There's just a recorded message. So we couldn't confirm when we were arriving, we couldn't confirm. So we were just turning up and doing jobs. And if there was a problem, we couldn't fix them. We couldn't. But the sensitivity of Net promoter score in showing us how low we got and how quickly we came out and the importance of getting certain communication channels flowing again so that we back to the customer and we, we, we rerouted and rebuilt a whole new phone system. Last year we'd invested in a whole new phone system for our customer service centers. We scrapped it and brought in a cloud based one in three weeks because our computers were all infected. And the cloud based one allowed us to have a phone system live for our consumer interactions. But it told us how important it was to get that done quickly and we stayed cloud based. You know, we're staying, we've got much more resilient systems now as a result of this. You know, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, I suppose they say. And it definitely, it damaged us, but we're a lot better for it. There's a lot more resilience and we really understand the value of each element of the communication channel.

That's amazing if I just restate that back to you. So within a week or so you were seeing the impact in customer communications through your Net promoter score and then equally you could see how the actions you were taking were restoring the customer experience. And you went back very quickly and that's an incredible story, Martin.

Yes, 60 down to a minus nine in a four week period. Yeah. And then five weeks later we're back up at 62. So yeah, no, it, it's been a roller coaster. That's a very deep, steep drop. And our eyes. But yeah, we've learned a lot from it and the voice, you know, we can't apologize enough to our consumers, but it genuinely was, you know, it was a cyber attack. There's nothing we could do. KP Nuts were hit the same day. KP Nuts could not manufacture invoice or delivery for two months. We managed to trade through the whole experience. It's crazy.

Congratulations. So you've got the Net Promoter school back on track. A lot of learning so far. What's next on your program? What are you planning on doing next as a result of some of the learnings that you've had?

Well, one of the things is customer service. So we currently do it after an installation but you know, we guarantee our product for 10 years and you know, and through that period, you know, I think it's about 30% of customers over the 10 years we will need to go back to because there's a problem with the product or something and we guarantee it's not a problem. But we want to use Net Promoter Score to understand that experience. You know, did we get back to you quick enough, did we resolve it to your satisfaction, etc. So we're going to use it more at that end of the business and also at the front end of the business, which is our sales experience. Because at the moment we only use it for those that have an installation and therefore bought from us. There's about three times more customers. Three times. Yeah. But roughly three times more customers who contact us but don't buy from us. Well, they had a salesman and they didn't buy from them. There must be a lot of valuable experience. You know, did and actually did they not buy from anybody? Yes, there's a lot of people. You know, the biggest thing in our industry is the procrastination of the sale. You know, lots of people put it off for a long time and one of the reasons they're doing that is they don't know how expensive it is. They don't know the order of magnitudes that it's going to be. Is it a 5,000 pound, a 2,000 or a 10,000 pound order? So a lot of people get a Quote. Now they get a quote, they save the money, then they come back and buy from you later. So getting that sales experience, right, and our salespeople, you know, were they all grumpy and did they damage the potential of that sale because they never got the contract, or did they leave the customer with a smile on their face that when they're ready to buy, they're going to come back to us? We don't really know that and we've never measured it, but we're going to use the same systems to get an NPS on a presentation, an NPS on an installation and on a service call.

That's a game changer. We use that ourselves and we have learned so much on this. We have the same thing in our business. People go somewhere else and you want to find out what they do. And amazingly, people often tell you, you would be surprised. I think I wish you well on that one.

Well, I remember I used to be in advertising, so. And the. One of the biggest wins I ever had started off as a loss, so it was for the Nectar card. So we were launching the Nectar card in the uk, we pitched for it and they didn't give it to us. But we were gracious in defeat. We offered to help them in the future and we wished them the very best because we thought it was a great idea. The company that won it messed it up so badly within three months, they just came straight back to us and gave it us. And it was one of the biggest accounts we ever won. And it is about that being gracious in defeat as well as in victory, isn't it?

Yeah, I totally agree. Before we leave the entire subject of windows, I was interested to learn something about your company and that's the whole sort of almost like circular nature of your business, where you recycle a lot of glass. This was something that was completely left field for me. Can you explain this a little bit?

Yeah. I mean, because we're the largest in the uk, we take out a lot of windows and there's value in that. If you can bulk it up so the little guys can't, you know, because there's a bit of glass, there's a bit of plastic, bit of wood and some metal in a window that they take out. They just chuck it on landfill because they can't bulk it up. Because we've got so much of all of that material. All our lorries are designed to ship out fresh windows and ship back to Barnsley, where our factory is. All the windows we took out, where we have a Huge recycling center. And we separate them into their component metal. Their wood is used for biomass pellets. The UPVC is sold and reground actually makes rainwater goods. It's not good enough for new windows, but it's good enough for the rainwater, your gutters and your downpipes. And then the glass is particularly valuable because the glass is used in the production of new glass. So the biggest cost in glass, and it's very topical at the moment, the biggest cost in glass is not the sand that you heat. It's the heat that takes to, to, to make the sand go to something like 1700 degrees before it hits melting point. Well, if you mix a little bit of glass in with the sand, it acts as an accelerant and reduces the melting point by about 350 degrees and therefore reduces the cost of producing glass. And as the only major company that gets so much glass back, it's an incredibly valuable commodity. So we actually buy or we offer to reduce the price of your new windows with, because of the value of your old windows. So we don't make money from the recycling but it's great for the environment, it's great for our customers because it makes the product more accessible and it just, it becomes very circular and it, you know, kind of, it's a feel good factor for the whole company and as a plc it's the sort of thing we should be doing.

Yeah, I think for me what I liked about the story is it sort of ties up, ties together the whole metaphor about how you're changing the business because you know, you're really trying to think about the customer is a long term asset to not just fit it and forget it, but to look after the customer to make it a great experience. And you know, you said that that results in referral business but it's also, you know, the way that you even recycling stuff. I think it's a really good beacon you've got for the industry, Martin. And thank you so much for sharing your story. No, I really appreciate it. And to use your thing about being triple glazed, I can't think of anybody who's as transparent as you sharing secrets. So thank you so much Martin. And I have to say the customers of safestyle should be very proud to deal with a company that listens so carefully to the, to their voice. And I wish you all the success in growing your net promoter score even further. And thanks for being a customer. Engaged customer.

No, thank you for all the support. You know, we couldn't have done it without the great service, the great product, the close of the loop, the feedback we get and the ease of the dashboards that, that just make it so easy for very non technical people out in our depots throughout the business to really embrace the feedback. It's great. Thank you.

I really appreciate that, Martin. Thank you so much. And it gives me a chance to play out with Nick Lowe's. I love the sound of breaking glass. Take care and catch up.

Thank you. Cheers. I love the sound of breaking glass Deep into the night.