Fighting The Fear of Feedback w/ Cara Crisler

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Account Experience podcast. I'm really excited to bring this one to you because a few weeks ago I did a really important one with Fred Reichelt. And one of the things that really struck me was his commitment to feedback and about having a safe space. So I decided to call this podcast Fighting the Fear of Feedback. And I'm really delighted to have two fantastic guests with me today. First of all, I have Kara Krisler. Hello, Kara, how are you doing?

Hi. Thanks. Just fine, thank you.

Well, Cara, you are an accredited non violent communication trainer. Trainer. Thank you for that. And not just a therapist. And you've been working with us for quite a while just on feedback in the company and coaching people. You've also worked with me. I really appreciate that. So what is nonviolent communication?

Nonviolent communication is a model for communication developed by Marshall Rosenberg. He was psychologist himself and he was wondering, why do people have so much conflict? And he was really observing all of his clients and he came upon this theory that most of it sits in our language. And so he developed this model that helps. It's just a set of guidelines really, of choices to help us see how can we speak to each other and listen to each other also internally in ways that are not bringing distance, but bringing connection. And it just really speaks to me.

I think it's great. It's also really helped me process feedback as well. And just for people who are listening, you're originally from the US and you've been in the Netherlands for a while.

A decade now.

A decade. Okay, Kerry, I'd like to introduce you now for those who listen to the Account Experience podcast, you'll know, Kerry, mainly because I stole his seat. But thanks for being so generous with it.

I was just keeping it warm for you.

Not at all. Really great to have you back today. Now, Kerry, everyone who's been listening knows you as a real customer loyalty specialist. And what's great about this is you've got real practical experience from your time at Areas and Gamestop. So I'm really hoping that you can bring some, some real feedback game to the, to the podcast today.

Yeah, every time this topic comes up and we talk about it, I think we're, we always are kind of amazed by just, just how important feedback is and, and internal, external, and how people handle it. So when you asked me to be here, I was super excited to join. Join the talk.

Well, I think it's a really great way into it because, you know, when we talk about feedback, Kari, you're Going to bring some, some thoughts about feedback on a one to one coaching basis, which is already hard enough. And then Kerry, I'd like to explore with you how people give feedback in the corporate environment because that really is our game. It's really the whole thing about, you know, enterprise customers making sure that the quality feedback comes through and gets to the front line. And that's what I want to talk about because I think getting feedback is scary just as a person and I know that when I speak to companies, really their staff have no idea how to cope with it. So how about we just jump in there? Cara, let's talk about this the first. Give us an overview of what feedback is and about, you know, how you understand it in the work that you do.

I think I can best answer that question by answering, I mean asking you, when you give feedback, why do you do it? What is motivating you to give feedback?

Ah, that's a really good one. I mean, what to my kids or my clients or to my staff, could be anybody. Okay, well, I get, wow, I wasn't expecting to get the question turned on me. This is not the way it works, by the way, so. But I guess I would say, you know, I'm looking for somebody to get better. That's what I want to try and do. And I'm like, hey, you know, you're doing it wrong. Here's my free advice, unsolicited advice sometimes about how to get better on that. Is that a definition?

Well, yeah, it sounds like you want to contribute to quality, contribute to learning, to growth, maybe collaboration, working together better.

Yeah, I guess it's a good way of thinking about it.

Yeah, so that's how I see feedback. It really, what's behind it are these positive intentions of, hey, I want to contribute or I see where things can be improved, there could be growth. So that's really what feedback is. It takes the sting out of it for me, if I can see it that way, the positive aspects of it.

And that's normally on a one to one basis. Right. So it's somebody giving feedback as a parent or a friend. Is that how you envisage it?

Well, it certainly wasn't most of my life, but NVC helped me embrace feedback in this way. Like, oh, it's really there to serve me. And also a key element that we'll get to is it says more about the feedback giver than it actually does me. And this, this helps me receive feedback also. Like it opens my eyes, I stay curious, like, oh, what does this say? About you, what's going on there?

Okay, that's really good. And it's normally meant in a positive way, right? Is that what you're saying?

Well, I can see it that way. I think the underlying intentions are positive. When I heard you say you're doing something wrong, then I feel scared again.

Okay, let's switch to Kerry now because Kerry, you've got years of experience of helping staff receive feedback in the corporate environment. How do you see that? How do you define feedback?

Yeah, it's interesting because now I'm going to ask you a question. No, no, no. Karen makes up a great point with that though. It's the intention behind it. And I think when we slide out of these personal relationships or really good leaders or mentors who are giving feedback or companies, if the intentions are positive and good, then that I think is the first hurdle. And if you can make that person receiving the feedback to make improvements, to grow, to maybe have a better understanding so communication flows better in the future. Are all the positive intents in feedback? I do sometimes think feedback though looks a little different in a professional role. First off, we don't have the ability to do what we're doing right here is sitting face to face and talking. We collect feedback in the form of surveys or comment boxes or sometimes just a bullet point they check off. And we have to marry that with metrics is another form of feedback we get. Now, do you log into my platform once a month or every day? Do you spend an hour in there or do you spend multiple hours in there? I think in the business world we are trying to find ways to calculate all that. But at the end of the day, that feedback, again, the intent should be good when we give feedback back. On the other side of that, what's our intention? What do we want to do with it? Is it positive? And unfortunately in the business world, sometimes that feedback can be weaponized. It can be used for another thing.

We'll get there a bit later, but we'll talk about how it's used. But again, let's get back to the definition. Kara, you come at this from very much a one to one feedback, a long form, one to one discussion. Right. And Kerry, your world, and to some extent my world is this, you know, small pieces of feedback but given in huge volumes, somewhat anonymously and we don't know the other person on the end of their giving feedback about normally customer experience. I just want to ground us in that. Right. So that's, that's as we understand it. And Kerry, just give an Example of how you've used feedback in your career.

Wow. I think there's been multiple ways. I think the mission always is to get back to that one on one, if you can. I think, I think ultimately that's, yeah, that's, that's where the best feedback comes from and that's where you begin that conversation. But looking back at my previous life of working in, let's say, areas and working with concessions to have thousands of locations across the planet, you know, and ultimately, look, it's, it's about driving better profit. I just so happen to share a belief with you, Adam, that there's a right way to do that. And by doing that, if you make people, if you build people up, if you make them feel more confident, if you recognize their strengths and celebrate those and you empower them, not only are they more appreciative, but they come back for more feedback. They're willing to give you feedback in that loop. And I think that's always been kind of my approach is I want to hear, I want to collaborate. And I think the feedback is where that starts, that relationship and that engagement.

I think it's a really good point. It's really the start of a dialogue, but let's get really into the meat of it. Why I believe this is, you know, I call it the fear of feedback. I've seen this in so many corporate environments I've been in that, you know, people are just afraid. They don't know what to do with feedback. When you give it to the front line, what do we do with this? You know, are they criticizing me? So I'd like to get in that with you, Cara. When we think about feedback, why is it scary?

Yeah, a lot of reasons come to my mind. I mean, if I just think about myself, I can be fearful of judgment. I could be fearful of the threats that could come to me because of judgments. Like I might lose my job, for example, or lose trust, or my reputation could be damaged. Things that are really important for me. Maybe I receive unfair blame, I want to defend myself. And that's, that's generally not super connecting. So, yeah, there's just this conflict. Like I don't love conflict and I think I'm scared of that sometimes when I know I'm about to receive feedback.

Yeah, I mean, also we think about this as the, in the coaching session, but we get feedback all the time, whether we want it or not. Right. And also in the workplaces as individuals, we often get 360 degree feedback, which I think is the scariest thing you can ever do. But let's think about this. Do you think feedback starts out negatively? I mean, you talk about this in your work as something we have when we're children, right?

Yeah. So this is, this goes back to what Marshall Rosenberg, the basis of why he founded Nonviolent Communication, the model in our language, what we learn is to feedback often starts with the word you. You did this wrong. We could just as often receive positive feedback like, oh, you did a great job on this and that. But typically that's just assumed as children, when we do things well or what's expected, that's normal. What we receive feedback on are the things we didn't do so well and people tell us what we did wrong. And that continues on into adulthood. There's this new focus that but for me, initiates the fear like, oh, what's coming? What is going to be said about me? I don't hear necessarily what it says about the feedback giver.

Yeah. And as individuals, when we get that from a loved one or from a parent or from a colleague, what is the normal response for people? Do they go, oh, great, thank you so much for giving me that feedback. How do they react?

That would be my dream world. Yeah. As a feedback giver, I'm giving you this gift. Please receive it. Oh, thank you. But no. I think more typically the defensiveness can arise. Just the typical fears of, oh, this feels yucky, this feels scary. I want to flee or I want to fight or maybe shut down one of those automatic responses.

Kerry, can you bring in the commercial aspect of this again? You've, you've looked after thousands of employees who were getting feedback. Were they all good with it? How did you handle that?

No, I think it's the same model. Right. The only time somebody wants to give feedback is to, in their eyes, improve or make it better or point out maybe a weakness, maybe it is being weaponized. I hate to go to that place. But sometimes in a competitive business world who people are trying to fight for the same position or a promotion or acknowledgement, they might even use that feedback as kind of a weaponized thing. And I think.

Hang on, let's drill down a bit more. Now. Why is that? Is that because of the net promoter score aspect of it? Can you give some context to that?

Yeah, I think when we start putting metrics into a business world, it's not just a relationship where it's going with gut feeling or it's a measurement of some of all of our experience together. We have to part putting metrics in place on that. And if it's a net promoter response, if it's closing the loop time, whatever these metrics, we start to bake. If part of the feedback, you know, is around that, then it is, you know, it becomes used as well. Look how much better I'm performing than them. I should be in a higher bracket or consider it differently for that. And I agree. It's a fear without a doubt. Even in business, people are afraid to receive it because a lot of people in business don't know what to do. I don't think anyone wakes up in the morning and says to themselves, I'm going to go out and do a crappy job today. And then I hope someone comes and gives me the gift of feedback. No, I think the majority people act with, I'm going to do the best I can with what I have. And they really feel they're performing at the top of their game or they've had it. And you have to take that into consideration in this business world, like, okay, this person didn't perform as high as maybe expected or I expected or the business did. And how do you give that feedback? How do you get past that? Because that person is really thinking, I've done it. And let's be honest, if they could do better, I do believe they'd be doing better. And it's just, I think that's what's unique in the business world, because now we're pulling all these different metrics into it and using that as almost a strength point to come out with that feedback.

Because I think that's the classic thing, how businesses use feedback. And we see this, if we're ever buying a car or we're going, you know, we've been on the phone from somebody from Vodafone or Zigo, and they're like, hey, I hope you liked our service. Please give me a 10 or I'm fired. That's the very extreme thing we call that school begging. But that's part of it. So it's like, whether that's instilled or not, if you put it as a metric on somebody, they're going to ask for a top score and you're not going to get honest feedback. Because, let's be honest, they're afraid for their job, I think. So that's one of the things that we really need to get away from. By the way, that's what Fred said when we had this podcast. He said, you've got to pull all those metrics away from the net promoter score because it Absolutely. Makes people act in the wrong way. So that's really what I think about when I hear a fear of feedback. But any other points on that? Any other ways that people might be afraid of getting things back from people? I didn't want to jump. I was going to jump in. Kerry, you mentioned this other. It's about, hey, it's not my fault. Right. You've had that in your career, right?

Yeah. I think in a work environment sometimes too, there's this feeling that that's out of my control, you know. You know, corporate or that department over there made that decision. There's almost what we call, or what I call like a detractor sympathizer, when someone gives you a really bad score, instead of standing up and being part of the organization and saying, wait a minute, let's work through this, let's. I hear your feedback, but I want to tell you instead, the response is, yeah, those guys in corporate office don't get it. So we almost side with that. We're afraid to take that feedback on ourselves and say it's not us. So it's a deflection almost that starts to happen.

I think it's a really good point. But anyway, what it comes down to in the end is that I don't know what to do with it. I'm frozen like a rabbit in the headlight, I guess. So let's move on to the next one. Okay, so how should one deal with feedback? Kara, you've got some insights into this. How do you receive feedback as a person? What tips can you give?

Okay, well, it is really challenging hearing that numbers are given and there's not a dialogue. So for me, it's really very much in the dialogue unless the questions are asked in such a way that you're getting the kind of feedback that you can take in. So there's two main elements for receiving feedback that I've learned that are super valuable for me. One, well, let me name three. The first is remembering the intention of learning. For me, that helps me stay out of this framework of thinking that there's right or wrong or good or bad. But I just have this intention to learn here. So staying open, staying curious. The second point would be to try to find some shared reality in the feedback and with the feedback giver. So, you know, if I receive a judgment, I don't. Is that shared reality? Generally not. I want to. I want to hear what did I specifically do or say that created this impact? And hopefully we can agree on, yes, that is what I said or that is what I did. So we're on the same page. So if I, if I receive a judgment, I can ask this question. Okay. Could you tell. Could you be more specific about that? What was it that I said or did?

For example, do you think someone should make almost like guesses about what the other person needs to help?

Sometimes I do that. Yeah. Yeah. Just. I'll give an example again, just a really personal one. If I receive a compliment, positive feedback, I can find it really difficult to take in. I don't. I'm like, what are you talking about? So somebody. Oh, I don't want to use that example. So, for example, if somebody said, you, you're. You're a great coach, Kara, you know, I'm like, okay, whatever. I don't really learn from that. I don't know what it means. It might boost my confidence a little bit, but not really because I don't hear anything specific. So I almost always will come back and say, what specifically do I do or did I do that you liked? They'll say, generally, give me something quite specific like, I like the way you listened, or you let silences fall, for example. And then this is the third step. Then I make a guess or I just ask the question, well, what did that bring you? How did that contribute to you? Here comes the learning. The thing that I did say I let silences fall was contributing to their ability for inner clarity. And then I'm like, great, thank you. It's motivating me to keep that up. And the same goes for negative feedback. If I hear, yeah, I hate the way you let silences fall. It's so awkward for me. I wish you wouldn't do that. Then I could say, okay, so you want to feel more comfortable, Is that right? Yeah. Really? If I don't feel comfortable, I can't have this conversation with you. And then I might ask, so what brings you comfort? For me to just keep the pace going, to really keep. And so I learn. I don't hear it as, carrie, you did wrong or you suck. I hear there's something you can learn from this to help. If you want to serve me, then that's what I'm asking you to do. So getting into the specifics of it.

I really like that. So let me. So for you, it's a three step process. As I understand it. It's the being open to staying curious. So being open to learning. Number one, two is to try and find a shared reality. Do we understand this? And then the third is to, is to. Is to come back and say, did I hear this right? Or let me make guesses about what you said. Is it because of this and that helps you?

Yeah. And to be just a little bit more specific there, what I get is a you statement, almost always you, blah blah blah. And what I do with my third step, the guest is I kind of help you point your finger back to yourself. What does this say about you as opposed to what it says about me? What's important for you? What did you miss? What do you wish you could you got out of this? And it gives me so much safety to hear the feedback like, oh, it's really more about you. I'm casting it back to you like I did with that first question this.

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I really love this. I think we're really getting into how, what it feels like, the value of getting feedback. And we're right on the sort of like the personal basis. But I think it really works into the corporate closed loop stuff that you and I talk about. Carrie. So let's come back to you. How have you seen that, you know, how do you deal with feedback in your life? And also, have you seen it work in the commercial settings that we've been in?

Well, first off, I love the part about just being specific or getting details around that. And I find that the negative is always supercharged with details and dates and exact quotes. And then the compliments or the more positives are just like Kara said. It's like, oh, you're a great coach. Or that was a great class, really. And tell me more about that though. I think as we start to teach the people we're giving and receiving feedback from, that it's about more detail, no matter what type of feedback it is. I think that's one of the things that we really tried to work with. Like even here at Customer Gauge, any feedback is good feedback. I know it sounds cliche, but, you know, we celebrate when there's a response and when we see that communication come in, it's somebody trying to tell us something. And it's easy to put it down or to say, oh, she's crazy, she doesn't know what she's talking about, or take it personal. Someone says, don't take this personally. Well, you kind of should. I mean, it is about me or it is about the organization I work with. Taking it personally is not a bad thing. The problem is you got to get past that immediate shutdown at the beginning when it starts to come in, you know, and those steps don't work because most people hear you suck. Like Kara said, you know, shut down and all this wonderful dialogue that starts to happen afterwards, you're almost blocked from. And you gotta kind of get past that or make that like not as Important as, like, let's just get to it. Let's get to the actual conversation and the details of it and the specifics. And I love also the common ground. I think that's the other thing. How is this a benefit to your organization and my organization? I'm here to help you and you want to help your business grow. And that's the common place where this feedback needs to get to eventually. But it could be something personally I'm doing that is causing me not to be effective in that situation. But if you always can bring it back to the business side of things in our world and talk about the impact, the growth, what are your goals, what are you trying to accomplish here? And you can bring it back to that. I think that's that neutral place.

Yeah, I totally agree. I think I'm really taking away two things from this. The first thing is, you know, the you suck bit is let's use that as a shorthand because that happens a lot. But let's remember that English doesn't really have a. You know, we don't think of the plural. You like other languages. You know, it's not like French vous or something like that. So some people can confuse it. Communicating in English is like you. Well, is that me or is it the company? So we need to try to develop that corporate response. And again, I think in the settings that we particularly address with the enterprise clients, the large B2B things, it's really about trying to turn the feedback into this loop you're talking about. Because, Kara, in the settings that we have of surveys coming in, you don't get a return path unless you pick up the phone. Right, Kerry? And that's everything that we teach about. Okay. It's a starting point of the conversation. So your points about. Hold on, let me make some guesses. The shared reality only happens if you engage. And that is so often forgotten by most of the people that we work with. Thoughts on that. It's almost like a breakthrough I'm having just thinking about this. But it's really true, isn't it?

I say this all the time, though. I mean, if you are soliciting feedback and anyway in any form, and if you're not taking action after it, not only will you see that feedback dry up, but you also send a message that it's not important. So I think learning from it and taking action on it too is a big part of keeping that feedback channel open and widening and having a better understanding of it. Because two people can sit in a room and have the same conversation. But what happens after that and what changes, doesn't change or how we learn from that. Sometimes it's very different. And I think that's the only way you can prove that the feedback is working is what happens after that. Feedback conversation.

I so agree. Yeah. By the way, to turn it into some sort of flywheel with the thing where you just keep flexing your muscles. So let's get into some practical thoughts. Cara, about as the feedback receiver. Well, again, from your world, how do you give people tips on the best way to receive feedback, especially if it's negative?

Yeah. So I think the very first important step is try to focus on your breath. Just breathe. Just breathe to ground yourself and give yourself some reminders. Like, I know it's not completely true, but I like to tell myself this is more about him, her than it is about me. So while I'm breathing, I'm just reminding myself. And also, I can learn something here. I only can learn something here. So I neutralize myself, open myself up for learning, and then I go into the two what is our shared reality and what is important for you? Feedback giver, what is it that you want to be seen with or what need has not been met that you would like to be met? So if I can do, it's like magic. Like, I just, I just make it about you and don't. And that way I don't take it very personally. I just wonder, oh, maybe there are some things I could do differently next time.

I like that. And also, if you're going to, you know, is there a way that you can maximize the feedback you're getting? I mean, it might sound going against the pain. It's like, okay, give me more. I can take it.

Well, yeah. For example, somebody. Somebody says to me, because of you, we lost the sale.

Yeah. So that you statement.

Yeah, yeah, I. So I'm receiving this. This feedback because of you. We lost the sale. So I do my grounding. I breathe because I'm probably freaking out, scared. I want to defend myself, afraid I'm.

Going to get fired.

But I just hold all that, put it to the side, and I bring my focus back to the feedback giver. I say, so what are we talking about specifically? Is it the fact that I missed the meeting? And then I get, yes, I'm pretty sure I know what this is about because it just happened. Then I'm like, okay, yes, true. I missed the meeting. And instead of giving excuses, instead of expressing myself, I keep the focus on the feedback giver. And I ask what was that like for you? What was the impact on you? I know what my intentions were, but my impact, I don't know yet. That's what feedback is often about. I'm learning about impact. So yeah, what feedback is about. So I get to hear things like, we need reliability. We, you know, we. So instead of being you, it's, we need reliability here in this team. We have to be able to count on each other showing up to these meetings. What if no one had shown up? You know, we, we lose trust. We, we. So trust I hear is important. Reliability I hear is important. You know, I learned like, wow, this, it had such an impact me not being at that meeting. I want to better care for that in the future or make sure I get a repl placement or I'm motivated to change my behavior.

I really like that.

What you're getting at is you're getting really the thoughts behind that feedback.

Yeah.

I'm going to come back to carrying this because often, you know, when we get like a one line piece of feedback or a frustration from the customer, you never do this. That's rarely exactly what the issue is, is it, Carrie?

Yeah, it is. And here's the reality. People hate surprises. Right? And sometimes if you don't set the stage or the feedback session, let's say with the right parameters and say, look, this is why I'm here. Will you hear me out on what I have to say? And I think that's why when we start off in the business world, we say, okay, we're going to survey you four times a year. Don't be surprised by it when it comes, oh yeah, we're going to send a message ahead of time. And in this message, this is what we love to hear from you. You kind of set that stage. When I pick up the phone, hey, do you have a few minutes to talk? If this is not a good time, can we find a time that's good for you? So we've already set the groundworks of kind of opening that and being able to say, I'm open, I'm listening, I'm here right now. And when that feedback starts to flow, I think it's also okay to say, can we try using this phrase instead? Or whatever. Giving feedback to the feedback giver.

Right.

Empowered to do that.

But let's really move into that because I know that you've been doing some work on what you call the account experience way.

So.

And that's as I understand, that's about almost like educating the giver. But can you. Can you expand on that a little bit?

Yeah, you know, it's. It's for years business. I think if we go back, there was that friendly handshake, there was that understanding, and everyone was like, why are we signing a contract? We're just really. We get each other and there's this discomfort. And years and years have gone by, and now everyone has to sign, like 14,000 pages of contracts to make sure that we're keeping our promise with one another. But at the end of the day, there's just some basic business practices that ensure a good relationship. We're going to ask you a couple times throughout the years for feedback. We want you to be honest. When we get it, we're not going to hold it against you. We're going to use that as a tool to improve and grow. We're going to be open to that feedback. And I think that just setting the stage for that, it's almost like this pledge that we make on both sides of what that loop looks like. When I get feedback, I'm going to react quickly to it. That's the other thing. Sometimes you give feedback and nothing ever changes. And so part of that promise that we make in the AX way is, you know what? Not only am I going to listen to you and be open to it, but I'm going to do something with it. I'm going to commit to making sure that it's important to me and to the organization. And the other bit that I really liked about the ax, well, it felt like we went full circle. We came back to this place of how does it make you feel? Are you excited? Are you passionate? Is this something that is helping you get, you know, to go beyond? I mean, listen, at the end of the day, we're all making money and counting numbers and moving beans around. I get it. But is it a tool? Is it something that gets you energized and excited? Can you leave a feedback session or taking action on feedback and go, wow, that did make it better? It's contagious. It starts to become a loop.

I really like that. I'm just going to pick on that. It's contagious. I think that's it. I think Fred nailed it when it said about having a safe space for feedback. And I think that's created in two ways. It's like the vendor creating a safe environment for people to receive feedback. There's going to be no blame attached to it. We're here to support you if it goes wrong. But then also encourage that loop. You go back to the customers. And then they realize that there's somebody on the other end of it. So the next time they give feedback, they know that it's going to be received in that way. I think it's a. Both ways. Training on relationships that we need to set out as. There's a mission here.

Yeah. I just wanted to say when I was listening to you, Kerry, I had such a sense of, wow, you really care. Yeah. Like, I mean, it was, it was so encouraging for me, imagining I'm a customer to give feedback because I have a sense it will be handled with care. You will respect it. And it motivates me to give care in my feedback also.

Exactly. And so it's a mutual respect you have. And let's be all too often, especially when big companies buy from small companies, that can be lost, I'm telling you. But if you train people in the right way, I think it's really good. And I'm just going to. For me, I think this is set from the top. I think this vision must come from Tekeri. I can see you on the zoom nodding your head about this. Have you got anything to back it up? It's not just me saying that. Right, Is it?

Oh, my God, so many examples there. Listen, if upper leadership, whoever's guiding the company, owns the company, is not bought into this and is not practicing it, it is going to be a struggle. Your department can do it, you can do it as an individual, but you'll start to feel very tired and beat up after a while.

And a culture of fear, I'm guessing.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, again, you go from using it as this positive intention to grow and improve to this weaponized tool of destruction. Right. And I think, you know, not that I've ever experienced at a customer gauge, but we learn, like, even our best intentions, sometimes we're missing a piece of the feedback or not responding or I can go back a year and a half, Adam, and I was like, why doesn't the CEO send out that email and say, this is what we heard and this is what we're doing? The response from our customers like, nobody's doing this. Nobody's sending out an email that said, you got. Basically, you suck, you suck, you suck. Right. It's what we were hearing.

That's all you read.

Yeah, but how did we take that and go, okay, we're not going to suck anymore, though. We're going to be here yet and we're working on that. And let's, you know what? Let's not just end it with an email that kind of glosses it over. But let's start. It's like the beginning of a dialogue. I always talk about this. Stefan from Heineken, love that he said this. He says we don't use our survey campaign and our customer gauge software as a way to get feedback. Just to have feedback and put a score up. It's the beginning of a relationship. It's a dialogue that never ends.

It's a way of structuring that relationship. So let's think of this. Let's think about the people in organizations who are often the people you coach, Kara, and carry. The people that we work with, they're getting feedback and how can we. Is there a path to educate them to do this? Are there resources around and can they get better? Can you talk a little bit about how people can evolve through the use of feedback?

Well, something that occurs to me is to not only focus on those receiving feedback, but to really work with those giving it. I'm particularly thinking about inside an organization. I suppose it could also work with customers. So with customers, it might look like the way you ask questions that would be in the kind of a hidden training, almost like guiding them. Like, please try to answer these particular questions. This is how we can best learn inside when those dialogues are capable of happening, or I guess even on the phone. Yeah. Think of it as that safe environment has to do with also formulating your feedback in a way that is making it more about yourself than the other. That takes some training. It takes a lot of practice. We're just not used to doing it that way. It's more vulnerable and it requires some inner clarity of, okay, I'm unhappy about what happens. This is what I saw. This is the impact it had on me. I want you to understand, I know your intentions were probably different, but here's the impact. Can we learn and grow from this? And to formulate requests like, next time, can we try it like this? It just creates an easier way for the feedback to be received and for that dialogue to happen. And so on the receiver's end, it's really just training your ears to make it less about me and more about the feedback giver.

I think the way you phrased it, I mean, that would sound so professional to me. If I'd given feedback to someone and they said, well, okay, that hurts, or something like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But.

But I, you know, and I want to learn. But.

But, you know, your attention's different to impact. This is how. Let me feedback that. Did it. Did you mean this and, and I mean, I would be blown away by that. I really would. I would think, wow, that company's got a fantastic way of engaging the staff. I mean, I think this is the future that we should really be trying to teach with, with feedback. And I think, Carey, this is our dream of account experience. Is it to really.

Yeah. And I think, I think with that too is improving the quality of the feedback. Because that's become, not that it's a side effect, but we talk about data all the time. Bad data in, bad data out. But you know, that bad quality of feedback in, bad quality of feedback out. And you got to improve that. And you know, even coming back to the office, we've been, we've been all been at home sitting in our little office spaces with this Zoom technology. We've been missing these subtle micro moments that happen in meetings and feedback sessions or walking past each other. I think, Adam, you had an example of someone going during a meeting, you know, and that's feedback, right. And it's like, okay, wait a minute.

Or feedback wanting to be heard, to come out, but is it safe space for it?

Right, right. And you gotta be okay to ask that. Wait, can, wait a minute. You're not saying something or you're not truly giving me all that feedback. I can tell. And there's an honesty and purity that I think we also need to kind of weave into the feedback. And that takes. You gotta be brave, you gotta be prepared, you gotta be emotionally kind of set to hear it and be able to do the same in return. You can't expect it all to be one way. But I think if we could get to that and go, okay, wait a minute, I don't think we're really done here. Can we go a little bit deeper? Can we get to more root cause maybe. And I think that also improves the feedback cycle. Quality feedback, that's a really good thing.

To pick up because body language, I mean we're so, you know, as human beings, there's so much non verbal communication that we're doing that we're aware of, but that's on a one to one basis. It's okay on Zoom and it's not everything, but if you're getting feedback through, you know, some customer comments and scores, that's just not enough. It's a tiny window. You've got to dig in and explore it, I think.

But Adam, that's what we've done well as a company though, right? We marry that with login information that with frequency of communication, call cadence and I Can't say there is an equivalent in the business world. We were collecting more of that non verbal communication and marrying that together. And I think that's a really important part of that cycle. Is to say I've noticed something here. Can we talk about it? So going beyond, I think it's what Kara was saying earlier. Just I want more information on that. Don't just tell me I'm a great coach. You know, I noticed you were looking out the window five times during it. If I was so great, what could have I done to, you know, do we need a break or whatever. Let's dig deeper into that.

That's a wonderful thing. Let's try to sum up. So let's just give a few top tips for things that you would like people to take away and to get over to fight their fear of feedback. Cara, from your side.

To see feedback as an opportunity to learn to get better. That's my, my. Should I go on?

No, that's good. I think more if you want to, but I think it's a. See feedback as a gift.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. And to stay curious about what the feedback giver is. What's going on for what's going on there. Yeah, Some important stuff there. So I want to put my focus there as much as I can and not get down in my own negativity or fears.

Yeah, that's great.

Carrie, from your side, I love the part of it's not just about me sucking or me being great. It is looking at the person providing that feedback and saying what are they telling us about themselves? And I think that is a pretty powerful thing to put into your head. And then I agree with you. We got to make sure that we go in with really good intentions. I was trying my best or I was delivering because I wanted great performance. Now this person is using that same philosophy and giving me feedback to make me better, improve me. And if that's where we could start. I always call them the force fields being up. But then we can start to pull those shields down a little bit and allow that communication.

I knew you'd get a Star wars reference in there. I think if I was going to. If I was going to throw in my two cents on this, I think that really got to lead from the top. So it's leading from the top and setting the safe space from there. And there are also. We carry. We've discussed this on previous podcasts as well. There are ways that you can reward people for giving feedback, which is giving a charity contribution for every piece of feedback that comes in which says we take this seriously. So I think it takes some of the sting out of the negativity if it comes in, but that's worked really well. I think it's Briggs Equipment that did wonderful. Thank you so much, by the way, for both, for your time. From both of you, Cara, there's obviously so much more that one could go into this, especially on the non violent communication side. How does one reach you if you want to get more resources from you?

Oh, what a lovely question. My website, it's chrislercoaching.com okay, great.

We'll put a link in the, in the show notes so people can do this. And I personally have been really drawn to the nonviolent communication. I think actually that's really what we've been talking about today. It's about finding a safe space for this. Carrie, how does one get more information about the stuff that you talk about?

Well, you know my favorite place that I'm going to tell you to go to, it's definitely the Academy, Customer Gauge Academy. We're very proud of it. You can find links on our website, my LinkedIn profile, but we can definitely put a link in there too, in the notes for everybody. It's a good starting place. But you can also reach out to anyone here at Customer Gauge. I have to say we practice this. We live by this. We were truly the first Account Experience company. We're working on it.

I think it's a great way to dwindle. Thank you so much again. If you listen to the Account Experience podcast, by the way, if you do like this, don't forget to rate and give us a review. Please give us some polite feedback and we will use it to grow.

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You again soon on the Account Experience podcast. Thank you so much for joining, everybody.