Is TrustID the new Net Promoter? w/ authors Ashley Reichheld and Amelia Dunlop

Amelia, why the hell should I trust you?

Because I try to demonstrate humanity, transparency, reliability, and capability. These are the four factors of trust. That's why you should trust me, Adam.

I love it. I trust you already. Excellent. Hi, I'm Adam Durrell and I'm the host of the Account Experience podcast. Where normally you're going to find me cooking up a casserole dish of capable B2B account management and using the most transparent stock of voice of customer. Because we are today making a delicious stew that we call Account Experience. Oh my goodness. Made up, wasn't it? But every week I talk to an industry leader to share best practices and tips to help you develop your own Account Experience program. I'm also father of four, a founder, and I'm fanatically interested in human relationships. I love anything that really relates to the science of how people can communicate better. So today I'm so psyched to be talking to the authors of a brand new book. It's called the Four Factors of Trust. It really speaks to my love of metrics and human relationships. Today I'm talking to Ashley Reichelt. She's principal of Deloitte Digital and leader of the enterprise trust practice for consulting. She's been doing it for 20 years and we'll get into talking about this stuff. And Amelia Dunlop, chief experience Officer of Deloitte Digital. She's already a an award winning bestseller of Elevating the Human experience. And I'm, you know, together they are Ashmelia. I hope I'm calling them that. Welcome to the Account Experience podcast. Hello, Ashley. Hello, Amelia.

Hello, Adam. Thanks for having us.

Great to have you.

Great to be here.

Now, I just want to say I'm a huge fan of the book. So I mean, it's just brand new out, right? I got it a couple of weeks ago. Read the whole thing in like 48 hours. I love it. So who'd like to go first and describe the book? Amelia, why don't you tell us about what is the book about?

Oh, goodness. Well, first of all, thank you for getting the book. Thank you for reading. Makes us very happy, right? Because you know what it's like to labor in sort of isolation. So Ashley and I wrote this book together almost entirely during the pandemic. It's such a great thing to sort of start to see the ideas coming out into the world and then to be able to share them and conversations with people like you and with your listeners. And I would say that the book really came about that Ashley and I have spent both of our Careers focused on the idea of human behavior and experience. And together as a part of a leadership team. A number of years ago, we set the aspiration to elevate the human experience. And if I'm totally honest, we don't know exactly what that meant at the time, but we do know more about it now. And we know that we're not going to elevate anyone's experience if they don't trust us. And that's why Ashley in particular can jump in and say more about this. So much of what we've done is focused on how to build that trust. So, Ash, do you want to jump in?

Yeah. We're passionate about helping organizations to create better experiences for their humans. And you can't do that without trust. Trust is pretty hard. It's actually something that's difficult to measure because it's a human emotion. And those things are always a little sticky. We wanted to create a framework for leaders just like us to, to help break trust into the pieces that you can act on and in a way that was going to drive meaningful behavior change and better experience for the humans that they're after, whether that's their customers or partners or employees.

Yeah, I think you nailed it in the book. We'll get into that. So you've got this measurement framework, but also you did some sterling work at the beginning of the book, if you don't mind me saying, about how to define trust and about why is trust so important? So why don't we just focus on that for a minute? Let's zoom back a bit. Why is trust so important? We probably take it for granted as humans, but what does it mean to people?

You know, I think trust has been important as long as we've been operating as a society. The difference is that we don't always talk about it. And these days with such low trust, trust has taken a main stage. So let me quantify that for you. We looked at data institutions like Gallup and Pew who've been studying trust for 40 plus years. And for 40 plus years, trust has been on the decline across organized religion, governments, big business, the Supreme Court, you name it. We don't have as much trust as we did even 40 years ago. The challenge, though, is that we know trust drives behavior. When customers trust you, they buy more, they spend more, they're more loyal. When your employees trust you, they're more motivated to go to work by 180%, incidentally. And they're less likely to leave. In fact, 50% less likely to leave. All that said low Trust, we know it's important. We also know that leaders don't understand trust very well. Employers tend to overestimate their employee trust by about 40%, and consumer leaders overestimate customers trust by almost 50%. So we have quite a lot of work to do.

And that's a sort of gap I think you talk about. That's a trust gap, right, that you're talking about. Amelia, let me ask you about this. I mean, you were able to quantify what good trust means in business. What sort of factor does it mean if you've got good trust in a business, and does it help sell more, for example?

Absolutely. So we do know that trust is the path to loyalty, right? So many of your listeners will know that a Net promoter score is the sort of the kind of gold standard and a measurement for knowing whether or not you've got the type of loyalty for your customers or for your employees. Many executives actually have their personal compensation tied to net promoter score. But the thing that we were really curious about was what's the relationship between trust and loyalty? And that's where this research really is about driving that and the fact that trust can be a predictor of loyalty, particularly breaking it down into the actionable sort of four factors of trust. So this is where it's really all about. Your humanity, your transparency, your reliability, and your capability. And these things together drive the kind of results that organizations care about.

I didn't mean to interrupt you there, Amelia, but that's actually what I wanted to pick out, the four factors, because the book's called the Four Factors of Trust, and we. I don't want to bend on that. So let's just go through those a bit more slowly so we can unpack that a bit. Who wants to go first? Ashley? Tell me about the first two factors, and then we'll come to Amelia for the other one, so sure.

Well, why don't I kind of describe how this all works together? Because when we started, we wanted to break it down, was both actionable, so something simple enough for companies to use. That's actually the brilliance of Net Promoter score, if you ask me. But also something that's truly meaningful, that it does drive behavior. We can predict what people are going to do. So trust at its core is, do you make and keep good promises? We define do you make a good promise as humanity and transparency? And are you able to keep that promise as being able to deliver capably and reliably? Amelia, maybe do you want to talk a little bit about what each of those means?

Happy to so for humanity, it's really about are you treating people fairly, kindly and with respect. And we should say that this matters for your employees as well as your customers. For your transparency. It's are you providing the relevant context? Right. So this is not necessarily all the worry details, but the details that matter for a customer to make a decision or an employee to feel like they're being kind of clearly communicated to. And then for capability is do you have the resources that you're promising? And reliability, are you actually delivering consistently again and again?

And you've got what I liked about it and I've got the graphic in front of me which I'll try and put in the show notes. But you for me, it was quite good because the first two, humanity and transparency, you talk about intent, so this is what you intend to do. And then the other one seemed more practical. The capability and the reliability is all about how good you are at doing that. The competencies. And I really like the. Did I get those right? The way that you put them on the framework? And I really like that. So the two are linked together. So now we define the four factors of trust. Now let's go further on that because you've developed a metric that to help understand this. So you're measuring these four factors of trust. Ashley, again, maybe you can start off by talking about how you start putting this together as a metric.

Well, we knew that trust drove behavior, but we also know that it's difficult for people to answer when you say, hey, do you trust me? It's kind of hard to say. It's hard to answer that question, do I trust you to what? But we also knew from our research that when you ask people what builds or erodes their trust, they're able to dissect that very cleanly and very quickly. So you can ask them, is this company reliable? Does this company treat you like an individual? Are they telling you everything you need to know to make a choice? That's how we got up with the four factors. And as we built our metric, we wanted to get to one number that you could look at and say am I trusted or am I not? Which is now what we call the trust ID and automation of those four factors. And similar to nps, we take the people who trust and we subp the people who don't trust to get our Net Trust score. Now that net Trust score is linked pretty dramatically both to behavior and also to company level performance. Talked a little bit about the fact that we know it drives loyalty and purchase. We also can tell you that it delivers financial value. The most trusted organizations deliver up to 400% more than their competitors.

I agree. I was astonished by that, how you were able to tie it. But just go into this, Amelia, you got a point on this.

I just wanted to jump in and say, building on what Ashley was saying, the reason that we. That we invested so much time in this kind of measurement of trust is we felt like we, as leaders needed something. Right? We know that trust is intuitively important. We're not trying to convince anyone that trust is important. I think we all know that. But as leaders in our own organization, what can we do about it? Right? Sometimes it's, I know it when I see it or I know it when it's not there. But we wanted something that we could use to actually build trust with our own teams, with each other, and with the organizations. And that's what we wanted to share with. With your. With readers and listeners on this program.

Did the concept of the school come out fully formed, or did you really have to work and iterate it? Tell us how you got there.

Well, so I started with the team, gosh, maybe three years ago, but had been interested in trust for a long time. For my part, trust and loyalty. Amelia likes to tease, are in my blood, so to speak. And I grew up with the notion of trust being an absolutely critical part of doing business and how you get to retain customers. I am. As a small side story, my father and my mother own a Christmas tree farm, and that's actually how we grew up. They both are teachers, and that's their normal job. But in the wintertime as kids, we would go out and cut down Christmas trees and sell them. And when the farm first opened, there wasn't enough staff to run it all the time. So we ran it on an honor system.

By the way, that's a brilliant side. That's such a brilliant side. Hustle, Ashley. I've never heard anybody that's got them before.

It's wonderful, but it matters, right? So we trusted that they would do that. And you know, what they did. We've rarely, if ever, had a tree stolen. On my own farm, I never had a tree stolen. So loyalty has been important for as long as I can remember.

And trust is part of that. Right? You're Midwestern, right?

Trust is what drives loyalty. One of the things that we were careful to do was to try to understand the relationship between them. And what we found is that as you build trust, you earn loyalty. As you lose trust, you lose loyalty. So there's a direct correlation between the two. And one of the things that we're so excited about is that those four dimensions of trust help you break down what to do differently. So you can actually say, okay, for somebody who's low on humanity that requires this kind of action, we need to treat them like a human. We need to apologize. We need to make them feel like we care. Somebody who's low on reliability, man. We just have to deliver, and we have to reassure them that this one mistake that we made isn't going to happen again. We're going to take care of it, and we're going to fix it going forward.

Amelia, I think you want to jump in on this because the drivers are fascinating for me.

Well, I think the thing that I love about them, too, is, particularly in times now of the kind of economic, political, and social uncertainty, I think customers and employees are increasingly looking for what can they trust. And I think that's why, as leaders, we need to be able to. We can't just throw up our hands and say, I don't know how to do this anymore. It's really using something very practical, like the four factors to not only start to measure trust, but more importantly, be able to predict it. Ashley was saying, because nobody wants to kind of keep answering kind of survey questions, we want to be able to predict behaviors.

Which actually takes us back to the question you originally asked, which is, how did you come up with this stuff? And the truth is, there's lots of research out there. Luckily for us, there was a ton of academic literature on what drives trust. We were able to take that and then engage on a journey to go quantify it. We are data geeks, truly at heart. We love data, and we geek out on it a little bit. So when we set this, we really wanted to be scientific. We're students of human behavior. And so we built a fairly robust set of fine needs based on a large quantity of longitudinal data across audiences, across sectors, so we could really understand in detail how these factors drive behavior and what companies can do in order to engage differently.

Yeah, and the other thing I really loved about it is you started to talk about the connection between employees trusting their companies. And you've got a whole, you know, trust ID for employees as well as for customers. I'm fascinated in that because I've been doing Net Promoter forever, and it's quite hard for me to correlate the two things. But you really seem to put this front and center. So I'm really excited to see how this works out.

We've really put that through the paces, actually. So we wanted to study the relationship because fundamentally, we believe that in order to build trust with customers, your employees have to trust you. If they don't, it's really hard for them to build trust. And what we found is that when employees trust their employer, they increase customer satisfaction by over 200%. So there's an immediate relationship that you can quantify between your employee customers. And as it turns out, customers are also watching how organizations are treating their employees. One of my favorite stories about the P is what Delta did. Delta was different than airlines in that they didn't ask, didn't make anybody take a furlough. In fact, they made it completely optional. Ed said, I'm not going to fire anybody. I'm not going to furlough anybody. Ed being a CEO, people are going to be able to choose, and you'll have your healthcare the whole time. And, oh, by the way, I know it's uncomfortable for people to be on planes with people packed together, so I'm also going to keep the middle seat open. And they did that for a long time. And that level of trust from their employees to the customers delivered outstanding results for them.

Yeah, that was a really good. I really enjoyed that, Bastien. I think it's a really inspiring leader. So, so, okay, we mentioned Net Promoter, and I think that's really good. And I've got this, this, this wonderful graph that I'll also put in the, in the show notes about the correlation between Net Promoter and the trusted brands. But I'm so, so. But there is a family connection, which we, which I was wondering about when I was reading the book, I said, but. So who wants to speak about this? Maybe, maybe Amelia, you can talk about what you think about the family connection between this as an outsider.

Oh, my goodness, I would be happy to. I mean, I think one of the things I'd like to tease Ashley about is that trust and loyalty are definitely in the family and that I think she spent her entire life, you know, trying to sort of separate herself from that fact. But. Yeah, but Fred Reicheld is her uncle, and he's been just a wonderful leader in this whole space of customer loyalty and experience. And I think about the fact that sometimes I tease Ashley that at Thanksgiving dinners, do they ask each other, what's your likeliness? To recommend these mashed potatoes to a family member? But joking aside, I mean, I think that the partnership has been a wonderful one. Fred has been a great mentor and advisor as well.

I don't think people Talk enough about these subjects. So I think it's wonderful that Fred has founded this dynasty also with his daughter as well. You know, to really focus. I mean, what's not to love about a family that focuses on love and loyalty and trust? You know, this is off to my own heart. So there's some family goals going on here.

I actually think that you just very succinctly defined what we would consider our family brand, which is love, loyalty, and trust.

I think it's wonderful. But. But what's really interesting is, is to see this thing together. Now let me drill into that a little bit more because I'm an. I'm an NPS geek and I'm doing it for ages. So how do you think it's going to evolve a trust and nps, do they go together? Do they complement. Will you be the new Net promoter?

At the end of the day, NPS is a brilliantly simple metric. It's easy to use, it's an industry standard, and 2/3 of Fortune 500 companies use it. We didn't actually displace NPS. In fact, what we wanted to do was define a path to loyalty as defined by nps. So the goal of our platform is actually to support loyalty and to help companies take more actionable measures to actually get there. I was describing earlier the different kinds of actions that you can take. One of the things that we did this past summer was work with an airline company to help them understand their trust levels and to help them invest in building better trust. We took a look at identity passengers with identical NPS scores, and their trust scores would often be different. Somebody high in humanity. That person you should seat by her child. If they're not seated together, maybe just, you know, don't yell at them to get out of the way. On the same score, somebody might be low on reliability, and that's the person that you want to assure you're going to be on time next time. It was a one off. These kinds of things happen. But we're going to make it up to you. And rest assured, the next time you come back, we'll take care of you.

From your point of view. Amelia, when you started putting the book together, was there anything that surprised you about it? You know, as you went through this, Was this, You know, did you get there? Were there something intuited? And then the data showed you something else? You said you're a data geek. Come on.

Absolutely. It's a great question. So one of the things that we tried to do was kind of lead with Hypotheses, but then always let the data tell the story. And I think we had a hypothesis, for example, that humanity was really important to driving consumer behavior and that consumers were making decisions based on how humane or empathetic brands were. And we realized that's really not the case. That's not as much of a driver of kind of customer behavior, at least yet. But it is, in fact, the case that after a sort of, you know, called a service recovery instant, right. Where something. You've let me down as a customer, those companies that have higher humanity scores, you're 280% more likely to have that customer kind of return to you and be loyal if you have established those higher trust scores. So that's just an example where what we thought at the beginning turned out not to be true. But it was almost even more interesting to learn that humanity really matters, particularly after there's been some kind of breakdown.

Well, let's just tell to tell a little story to bring that to life. Imagine you are picking restaurants. You kind of know the food you want, but you also know you're not going to go to a restaurant that's going to serve you terrible food that's going to give you food poisoning. Capability and reliability are that table stakes. They're kind of the criteria for entry. And what Amelia is describing is the stickiness you get with your customers and employees when you start to make that intent more about them and more valuable to them.

Right. But I would say there's another example where we had a hypothesis that things like core demographics would also be predictors of trust. And we explore this in the book, but we also realized that core identity variables, right? So, you know, man or woman, your ethnicity or race, they turned out to be not as in isolation, as predictive of your trust scores as what we would call experiential variables. Things like, so, Adam, whether or not you're a parent, whether or not you are sort of more senior in your organization, these are the types of things that, together with those core variables plus experience variables, are much more predictive of how likely you were to trust.

Yeah, as an older white guy, apparently I'm one of the least trusting people out there. So that was quite something.

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Let's just take gender politics on the nose here. How do you see how, how gender plays into into trust and how companies can improve their trust score by appealing to certain gender characteristics?

Well, gender is a particularly fascinating demographic because on average, women trust a lot less than men. What's particularly interesting to us is that women actually start out trusting relatively the same. So let's take employees, for example. Male employees and female employees start at the same. Same level roughly. But then within a couple of years, there's a pretty significant drop off in trust levels and those are never quite recovered, not even at the most senior levels. So women in general trust less than men. But I want to take that back to this notion of lived experience. We also know that women are still paid 80 cents in the dollar. We also know that women have different requirements at home. We also know that female characteristics aren't always valued in a leader. So there are lots of reasons this happens on the customer side. The story Amelia and I like to talk about is in the automotive industry, did you know that when we test cars for safety, we tend to use 180 pound male test dummy?

I did know that. My daughter was telling me about that the other day. Yes, it's completely unknown.

It's kind of crazy, right? If you think about it, that's certainly a portion of who drives the cars. And as a result, women and children are substantially more likely to be injured or even killed in an accident. It's a really, not surprisingly.

Sorry.

Automotive trust scores correlate with that. So you see lower trust amongst women in auto.

Yeah, that's, I, I agree. And, well, there's a whole bunch of gender bias that's also introduced in the marketing of that. So. So I think that auto manufacturers are just about catching up on this one, but they've clearly got a long way to go on it. Amelia, you're just going to finish your point on that.

I'm just going to jump in and say that we, and we know there's a lot of industries that have a regular practice of, you know, what's called Trinket Pinkett, and this idea that it's the exact same product, it's the exact same service, but that women will be charged more for that service. And so those organizations that are starting to really tailor to women's specific needs are the ones that are going to kind of engender more trust.

Didn't that story come about from, I think, Gillette marketing, Razor blades for women? Shrink it and pink it. I believe that's where the term came from.

And children, excuse me, there are endless examples. If you type it in, you'll actually find even guns that are smaller and bigger than you can find for women. It's an endless litany of products that really weren't designed for women, but we're trying to market to women. And to Amelia's point, it's not just product. We actually charge more. Take dry cleaning. When I'm traveling, I have a choice of choosing is it a male blouse or male button down or a female blouse? And if I choose male button down, it's the 30% less money than if I ask for my female blouse to.

Be cleaned in a way that goes way beyond trust. That's marketing issues, but you're hitting it on the nose, is that you have to be able to talk and communicate with your, with your, your audience and get that feedback, I think, and that's what I love about this. I want to touch a few other things because I know we're short on time and media. But the first thing I've been, I'm always asked doing Net promoter is hey, what's a good benchmark? So I'm going to turn it back to you. Can you talk about, you know, are there any scores or relative scores that you can talk about to give somebody an indicator where they should head for?

It's difficult to benchmark trust because it can change so rapidly. Trust, you know, the old adage is it takes forever to build and you can lose it instantly. So we do see quite a bit of variation. And unfortunately, from the first benchmarking study, which we published the book with, to the one that we just released, we saw a net 8% decline in trust. So the trust scores that were high are actually even higher now because they stand out relative to the average population. The companies that tend to do the best job are the ones that hit it out of the park on all four. These are companies like Marriott, for example, good at capability and reliability, but also very transparent about their pricing, about their fees. And they really do credit, try to create an experience just for you, tailored to the kinds of things that you need. And as a result they remain one of the most trusted companies.

Actually, one of the things I'm interested in because we have a very diverse employee population in customer case, for example, is how trust differs through culture and in different geographies. Is that something you researched?

Well, the majority of our research has been based in North America. We have started to kick off different country level studies to understand if trust is the same. And one of the things that we believe is that the four factors are the four factors, how we trust is human. And because we're organizations made up of humans, these same rules apply regardless of what job you're at, whether you're a business partner, whether you're an employee, whether you're a customer. We're seeing the same thing around the globe in terms of the four factors themselves. Interestingly, what we expect to change are the attributes underneath it. And just to give you an anecdote, I've spent much of my consulting career traveling and I've lived on every continent. One of the most fun places to live was in Australia. The first week I came, I was surprised to see signs on the wall with a big X of a woman standing on the toilet. And you're like, you know, do these Aussies know something I don't? Do we have to tell them that? And the truth is the message was actually targeted towards their biggest population, the people who vacation most, the people who immigrate, most come from China. And there it's not sanitary to share a seat with somebody. So as it turns out, women were squatting on top and breaking the toilets. Now it's a different examination of how culture works and what we each find meaningful or not meaningful. And we expect that to translate into our question. I'll give you another example. I had the great pleasure of working and as American coming into the room, an agenda. You're ready points, you're ready to get to the decision. And it took me a while to realize that the head nodding that I was getting in the meeting was, was not agreement. In fact, if anything, I was missing all the signs of disagreement Those subtle coughs or sneezes that I had to pick up on. So transparency means something different in Japan than it does in the US and it's okay, it's not wrong, it's just different. So how we're going to have to ask about transparency will also be different.

Well, what you're saying is that the factors are the same the world over and if I can bring my game, my net promoter experience in this, we know that net promoter schools vary by culture a little bit. And so you're saying that if you keep the measurement framework the same, the scores might be different and the factors might be different. But you can, you can factor that into how you do it by taking a particular geography.

Specifically, the factors will be the same. We expect the attributes to shift and we already see significant differences across industry. For example, take automotive again, as an the automotive in general scores pretty high in capability, reliability and humanity and transparency aren't quite as important. Now picture you've got to get your kid from home to school drop off every day. You need a car that's going to get you there. So those things are really important. Whereas if you move to healthcare, you start to see humanity and transparency right at the same level of parity with capability or liability. And there we're talking about quite literally sometimes life and death. So if you aren't treating me with humanity, if it's not my care, if you're not telling me what I need to know, of course I don't trust you.

Ashley in a media. You both work for Deloitte Digital. So how do you think your personal management style formed the outline of the book?

So funny. We like to use the expression that we like to drink our own champagne and that you really probably shouldn't trust us if we weren't also using the four factors of trust with ourselves, in our own leadership relationships, with our own team. So it really does inform our own personal leadership philosophies on how we think about growing humanity with our teams, trying to be as transparent and showing that vulnerability as well as just showing up reliably and capably. But one of the things I love about Ashley is that she's gone so far as to kind of really make it a part of her personal leadership philosophy that she shares with her team. So Ash, do you want to say more about that?

Well, Adam, you love this part. I'm. One of my goals is to be as transparent as I can. Having spent so much time in. I am, I'm a bit on the Dutch word bespraik. Bahad, which basically means anything that can be talked about should be talked about. Now, to some extent, the Dutch might be considered roughly on the ruder side versus other Europeans because they really do tell you exactly what they're thinking. But the translation for me was if people don't understand why you're asking them to do something, if they don't have all the information they need to make a choice, they're not going to feel very comfortable about it. So you have to drive that transparency. But I have. I've outlined for each of the factors what my goal is and how I aim to deliver that to my teams. And, Amelia, actually, to speak for you over indexes on humanity, I think. Amelia, your Joy Day example is a great one. Do you want to share?

Sure. So during the pandemic, I don't know about you, but I found that Wednesdays were the hardest days to get through as we were all working and zooming during quarantine. And you were sort of like the furthest apart from any actual human connection. Right. So, you know, from. From either side of the weekend. And so I started this practice of, you know, writing down the things that I was joyful for that brought me joy. And actually I decided to share it with our entire team.

Yeah.

And so, you know, once a week on a Wednesday, I would send a note that just said, happy Joy Day. And even, like, no matter how hard I had to search for, I would say I would itemize the things that brought me joy. And I remember there's a point where each of my kids were doing their own Zoom classes during. On their own computers. And I went and actually down to the local store and I got a packet of M&Ms. For each of them. And I remember my daughter was like, how did you do this? I was like, it's a packet of M&M's. Like, I know it's just like a Wednesday, but it's going to bring you joy and me joy. But then what was really cool, Adam, is I shared that with our team. And what was even better is they would then reply with what brought them joy. So it became the sort of virtuous cycle, and it continues to this day. Right. So, you know, obviously we're not as constricted as we were during those times, but for me, it's just that reminder that when you seek out joy and then you share it, people will then kind of reflect it back to you.

I just wanted to finish this podcast by saying I love the book. I thought the style was great, really super. Involving read and I read a lot of business books and this was really refreshing and it's very open and also colorful. So it's quite easy to follow just like most business books. But picking up on your point of me here about that, drinking your own champagne, it is totally transparent because you open source a survey, you make it very available to people. So thank you for that. And it's got capability and reliability in because you talk about your sources and you prove it. But for me, I think the thing that's most engaging is its humanity. And I love the way that both of you tell really deeply personal family stories that brought a connection for me to you. I was so looking forward to speaking to you today. And you know, you, you guys over delivered. So for all listeners that are out there, trust me on this, you are going to enjoy it. And that's a real trust thing that you can measure on. So where can people reach you, Ashley and Amelia, if they want to carry on the story and the dialogue?

Well, you can find us both on LinkedIn. You can also go to the four factors of trust.com and there you'll find access to all of our research. To your point, Adam, it's meaningful for us that companies start to focus on trust and we wanted to make it available to everybody so that we could do that. If we fast forward 10 years, my perfect scenario would be that companies are actually starting to report their trust scores on their annual reports and we can make investment choices based on how those companies are doing beyond the financial component of trust. The other part that's really important to us is this creates the kinds of organizations that we want to be a part of. So there's a much more meaningful societal impact that we're hoping to achieve as well, which is why we've put up our data, why we put up the surveys and you can go and play with it and we encourage you to do so.

Thank you.

I really appreciate your kind words about the book. We definitely set out to make something that was as readable as it was well researched. So thank you so much for that.

Oh, it's actually my pleasure. And I think the initiative to get people trusting more and to measure that is so laudable. I mean the more science we can put in this, this area, something we have every day, the better. So Amelia, Ashley, Ashmilia, thank you so much for describing the full factions of trust and I'll put the links to the group. Catch you soon.