Solving the CPG Experience Paradox

Hello and welcome to the Account Experience podcast. You know we sit at the junction of B2B account management and Voice of customer. At that point is what we call Account experience. And every week I talk to an industry leader and we talk about best practices and try and share those and give tips to the community here to help you develop your program. And we like to think we're building an open source community. So if you like this, please do review us and share. It does help spread the word. And we're kicking off season three today and I'm delighted to be talking again to Nigel Tordoff. Nigel was on the sofa with me at Monetize and we are about to try to pick out some of the highlights of that on the podcast today. For those who weren't there. Now Nigel, for those who don't know, is a semi retired professional. That's how he describes himself these days. And in his previous life he was the senior executive of the well known brewery Molson Coors where he spent well a few decades of his professional life. In his time he was the chief customer officer of the entire USA business and he ran the customer excellence program. And I cannot think of a more entertaining way of kicking off our new season than bringing in Nigel to talk about this. So welcome Nigel.

Oh, good morning. It's a pleasure to be here. Looking forward to the conversation.

Oh Nigel, it's been great. Well, we've been working together over the last few months on the customer experience. Sorry, the CPG Experience Council which I hope we can get onto later on. But yeah, what I'd love to talk about now is why don't you help us understand where you came from in your professional life. Give us some color in what being a chief customer officer at Molson cause was like.

Well I tell you what, it's an interesting journey because you're right. I actually spent just over 30 years at Molson Coors and it's actually a little bit of a backdrop to one of the deep rooted beliefs I actually had that happy people do a better job and if you're happy you stay in an organization. I stayed for 30 years and absolutely loved my time there. I got chance to work in the UK business. I actually switched functions very early on in my career with the help of the company. I went from accountancy to sales and as an accountant I was so frustrated that the sales guys didn't make any money. I switched and found out that actually sales is much more complicated than it looks from the outside as an accountant and I stayed in sales I absolutely loved my time there. I worked in the uk, I went and did a global role in Canada. Then I came back to the UK again when we had a little bit of a challenge to be able to sort out which part of the leadership team that did that then went into a global role helping share the best practices of everything to do with customer and customer commerciality and experience around the world. And then dropped into the US business which was a Chief Customer Officer role and spent the last few years of my career there. And then to be honest, I only went into retirement, or semi retirement as I call it, because Covid meant I got separated from my wife because of the legislation between the two countries at the time. We didn't suffer any of the harshest heartache that people did with COVID but it a long time apart where you're talking seven, eight, nine months, it nearly broke me. So I decided to come back to the UK with the help of the organization and enjoyed the idea of semi retirement where I get to do things that put a big smile on my face. Hence the conversation. Today, the CPG Experience Council, a little bit of consultancy, riding my push bike. I can thoroughly recommend a two, three day working week and a, well, a two day working week and a five day weekend. It's absolutely wonderful. So yeah, I got a big smile on my face at this point in time in life.

Well, that's great. I only hope I can get there and enjoy the same amount of leisure time that you do, Nigel. But I have to say, when you are on, you are on and it's great to spend time with you and we've learned so much from talking about this. I mean, one of the things you brought to my attention, I think during the time at Molson Court is you brought up this concept of paradoxical thinking, which I must admit was quite new to me. I love that concept. Can you expand a little bit on how you came across this?

The idea of a paradox is first of all, you start with two things that are seemingly impossible but are true at the same point in time. And it's something I learned over particularly the last probably decade of my career, that when you try and solve one problem, you're actually creating another problem somewhere else. So if you can solve both of them at the same time, then you actually get to a far, far better solution and it's a challenge. So the idea is some of them are my beliefs are actually deep rooted. So things like a carpenter, you think about it twice and you measure twice and you execute once. How do you take that same thinking back into business. So you think about things twice and you get a far better solution, and then you execute the solution once. But to give you an example, the best problems are often setting that paradox. So one of my favorite ones that we got to solve for as a team was the idea that we were actually uncompetitive in the marketplace. Our prices are too expensive, so we had to get the supply chain cost down. But at the same time, we had to actually improve our customer service and experience to our customers. Well, that's the paradox in itself. To be able to reduce supply chain costs but improve your customer experience. And they seem at odds with each other until you actually approach it in a completely different way, which, frankly, the only way you can solve those things. I don't have the brain capacity to be able to do that on my own. But you bring a whole host of people together to help you fix that particular paradox, and you fix a paradox you get with a far better solution than what you do by trying to fix just one problem on its own.

Well, I can imagine that that very paradox is pretty relevant now. I mean, there's real shortages on the supply chain side. Raw materials, staff and costs are going up. I mean, that would be. That's a really good place to think about this.

Well, it isn't the paradox if you go up a level. The paradox is quite common, actually, that how do you save cost but make more money or sell more? In that context, you end up with a cost saving agenda and a revenue growth agenda that often seem at conflict with each other. But as I said, if you bring the right people into the room, it's easy to do it. Give you an illustration that the first time I approached that paradox, it started with a 4am shift changeover on a production line in a brewery on actually on a canning line. And I stood next to one of the guys on the line and he basically said, so you're the idiot that keeps changing all the products around. So we can't get a good run on this line. If only we could put one product down this line all the way through the night shift, we could sell so much more. And I couldn't just put one product down the line because I got customers wanting multiple different products of the same product, right? Absolutely. Whether it was a single or a four pack or an eight pack, a 10 pack, a 12 pack of 15 that we did 20s, we did 24s and sometimes 30s. So imagine that every single brand can go into a different pack size. It's complicated but put something in my head about what? What could we do? If we could just do one line down the line, one pack down the line, all the way through the shift. And then as the day progressed, I walked into the office and saw one of my national account managers and she got ahead in her hands trying to work out how on earth to be able to hit the revenue projection. I saw the customer that afternoon who was pretty frustrated that every time we went on promotion they were losing money. I bumped into the brand manager who was trying to find a way to be able to get the brand spend to go further. And the solution was actually to bring all those people together. So how can you pull that collective brain power of all those people into one place to try and solve that dilemma that every one of them have got that paradox of how do you reduce cost but actually sell more? And that's how it all started. And you find far better solutions when you're looking at a paradox rather than just a problem.

I wouldn't stick around for the solution. But again, I read about this last week that there are huge shortages in the CPG channel where and they were saying there's going to be shortages on the shelves of retailers. Even I've noticed it on the store around the corner. So this is obviously it's a very real challenge that is current right now. So I mean, how do you solve a paradox like that? It seems that you can't solve it.

But take one of those examples. So shortage of product on the shelf or not delivery, hidden delivery windows. I was always amazed about how we frame things up as being a problem. It's in the negative sense of the issue. There's a burning platform and there's a problem we've got to solve for. And again I have this deep rooted belief that happy people actually do a better job. If you're doing anything with a smile on your face, you're going to do it better than somebody who's doing it under duress or who's heads down. And that whole principle, when you get challenges like empty supermarket shelves or a problem in a production facility, how can you reframe the problem as an opportunity? And if you imagine you bring 10 people into a room and the first thing you hit them with is five problems, they're already on the back foot, the heads are going down, it's a problem. This is going to be tough. You bring the same 10 people into another room and frame them. How about these 10 opportunities where we could sell more, we could do this, we could do that. And as you elevate it up the organization so you shared it with the senior leadership team. If you can frame it as a strategic objective about being able to increase sales by 5% or to improve profit margins by whatever percentage the positivity transcends all the way through the next. Well, whether it's half an hour of conversation or six months of a project, it's the positivity that drives a far better result. And if you frame it in that paradox as well, that we're going to solve this and we're going to solve that at the same time, it automatically seems impossible, but you do it by pooling the resources of all those people and to give you the solution as so imagine different packs of beer going down the line. This is an example from a few years ago now, but we partnered with Sky TV when, when Sky TV and Pay per View and NOW TV in particular were all just starting to take off. So this is all in the public domain, but we basically shared our packs of beer, the advertising space and the pack of beer with NOW tv. So you could roughly buy a relatively large box of beer for £10 but get a free 10 pound now TV download at the same time. Right now the consumer got that. I'm buying a 10 pound box of beer to watch my favorite football game that I can only watch on Now TV for £10. I'm actually getting free beer. I'm getting a free football match, whichever one they went with.

And I'm guessing the demographics there are kind of similar.

Right. Perfect beer. So you got the paradox. You're solving the production line challenge to be able to put big boxes of beer down the line all the way through you solving the challenge from customers that they can have an exclusive promotion because certain customers got certain matches and others got other matches. So you can change the dynamic. You got the brands, teams that get far better usage of their brand spends. Um, and it came about through putting nearly 10 people in a room together to be able to solve that paradox, but framing it up as a positive solution. It wasn't my idea. I just got the pleasure of being able to curate all of those people in the right environment, in the right situation and framing everything as an opportunity. And it, it's that, that example of solving the paradox and the positivity and pooling those resources together just stuck with me through my career. And I'd say it's, it's one of those moments where everybody says they have a little bit of luck in life and I was lucky to stumble across that See that it worked and then just kept repeating it and making it better and better and better through the career. And hence, that's what got me on to doing sharing best practices around the world. It's sharing other people's stories of what good looks like.

Well, I think it was. It was. It was also you that was saying about how you'd seen the way that bread delivery works because it's made, and you know, bread is made overnight. You were thinking about how that could be done in the beer industry, about how it could be.

Well, the stimulus comes from lots of different places. So couple of examples. One was a customer could place an order for bread and it's delivered within 24 hours. Now, beer is a little bit. I mean, bread is complex to make. Beer takes a little bit longer to make by the time you've gone through the whole brewing process. But it was one of those paradoxical challenges where you got with the supply chain team and the production team and the sales team in the room together to say, how could you shortcut, instead of the order being placed and it taking three days or seven days to be able to get to the customer, how could you shortcut it? And we got to the idea of consignment stock with particular retailers who got empty warehouse space. We could rent their warehouse space, but the customer didn't pay for the stock until they pressed the order. And then all of a sudden you've got 24 hours from placing the order to the stock being already in their network. You've taken two days out of the sequence. It meant we could save a little bit on our warehousing costs because we're paying marginal costs for the warehousing. But all of this came about because we got all the right people into the room trying to solve the paradox.

I think what you just said, it's also the wonderful thing, because it sounds like what I was thinking is you had everybody on your side talking about this, but it sounds now you've got the customer in there who's saying, I've got some empty warehouse space that you can rent. So that, to me seems like that's really the whole solution there, is that you've taken in the customer experience into account there as well.

Well, it is. I mean, the moment you set the paradox and you share the paradox with a customer, a good buyer. I always think about everybody you've worked in with life, you experience good and bad experiences. And it's the whole net promoter philosophy. Did you have a great experience or a bad experience? It's no different. When I think about all the interactions I have with people and a bad salesperson and a bad buyer, they only have one negotiation variable, which is price. And they barter. So one starts at 20, one starts at 10. And if we were both betting people, you'd say they're going to finish at 15. That's where it always happens. It amazes me when I watch that happen. But really good salespeople and really good buyers realize the situation's complex and put more variables on the table. And the moment you do that, the buyer's engaged in the problem. And it's amazing how many buyers can offer parts of the solution they didn't even realize because they're having a much more deeper conversation. So it's the same principle. I tended to start off with the right people in the room from within side, the internal organization, my company that I worked for. And then you bring in buyers when you've got a range of solutions to explore them and see if it could work. But if the buyer's got a growth mindset and they've got this idea that it's a complicated situation, it's a paradox, it's amazing how much people want to be able to solve that when it's framed positively rather than negatively. And it's just infectious. It really is.

I also agree. It's the thing about saying, how can we solve this? And it's not a confrontation, it's how do we do this together? For the best outcome, it is harder.

To do mutual benefit. I've yet to meet any buyer that doesn't want to sell more, make more money, or make life easier for their people. You frame it as a negative. Do you want to sell less? Do you want to make less money? And you want to make life more difficult for your people? No buyer ever says yes to that. And the moment you've got them into that mindset to say, look, I can't solve this without your help, but I've got some solutions I think may work. I've yet to meet a buyer that doesn't want to lean into that conversation. And all the time, that's just improving the customer experience. Because if you can solve a paradox, frankly, you can solve a very simple problem that comes up every day.

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So Nigel, when we're thinking about customers especially well in the in the beer channel, maybe you can just help us understand a little bit about how it's made up. I understand you got the big retailers and then right down to the outlets, maybe you can give some color about how, how you see the, the differences between them.

Perfect. I. I like the phrase differences because to start with, they're not actually better or worse. There's no one channel better than the Other, they are just very different, but they start with a common theme. They're both trying to provide a service to their consumers, to their customers, and they just provide it with a different opportunity in different ways. If you think about the large modern trade retailers, whether they're a large grocery chain or they're a large hub chain, they have access to data, they have really great training programs, they have education materials, they can follow processes pretty, pretty well, they can implement, they can write processes pretty well, but they've got to then implement them across a very, very broad customer base.

Yeah.

And they have segmentation, they have buyers, they have production people, they have logistics people, they have store staff, they have accountants, they've got a whole range of people. When you take that and you flip it into the traditional trade, the single owner operator business, they do exactly all the same things, but they do all of it themselves. And they're much closer to the action because they're doing everything. But I learned a couple of things with particularly the traditional trade over the years that when you're dealing with lots of small businesses, there was a couple of things that really stood out to me. One is they have a real heart for their business. If you can show them something that works, they're really prepared to put the effort in because it's their business, they're completely invested. And it feels a little bit different. You talk to anybody who's worked for a large corporation or worked for themselves, you're really trying to get that work for yourself mentality inside a large corporation because that care and that heart really does make a difference. The second thing I learned about the traditional trade, which I think sets them apart, is because they're doing absolutely everything, they're really, really short on time. So if you can't get your message across in under 60 seconds and then don't bother because they haven't got time for a three hour presentation and a PowerPoint deck. It's got to be really, really quick. And the other thing I learned from them, which was probably the most insightful thing, is that small businesses really care more about what happens in other small businesses. They trust other small business owners more than they trust the brand owner. And if, give me an example, if you've got a convenience store that's doing particularly well in one town and they see you see that business do particularly well and you're in 30 streets away or in another town, they're not really your competition. It's a different consumer set, it's a different customer base. But you want to know what's going well in that store? So small retailers tend to trust other retailers more than they trust the brand owners. And it's the insight that says it goes back to the same place again. How can you get more and more of the right people together to learn from each other? And if you trust that environment and you trust the people you're working with, you can raise the pool for absolutely everyone. And I think some of those things do go back into the big modern trade businesses. They're all hugely competitive with each other. If you see one supermarket chain doing something that works, my prediction would be you'll see that eventually going to the other supermarket chains. And the challenge with all of those businesses is how do you do best practices that work well, but how do you remain unique? How do you remain different? If we were all exactly the same, life would be so, so boring. I just wouldn't want to be involved in that world, if that ever existed. So it's nice to be different, but it's nice to have lots of good things that actually create a really good customer experience.

But let's, let's pick up on the customer experience because. Because I think one of the differences I see as an outsider is that the big retailers are almost overrepresented at the, at the big CPG brands because it's easy. You don't have to visit that many people. As you say, you've got dedicated buyers to do this, and then there's this long tail of traditional retailers that maybe their voice doesn't get heard. So I want to pivot into, you know, how you, how your thinking's developed on that and maybe even touch on how we can represent them better in, in the world of the, the CPG retailers.

Yeah. Well, if we start off with again, another little piece of insight, because insight's wonderful if you can take data and you can find something meaningful out of it. It, it guides some of your thinking to try and get to these paradoxical challenges that you can face into. It was actually an article from the Oxford Economics. A guy called Justine Kissinger wrote an article around the beer business. And I use the beer business because I know it well after 30 years. But you could take this scenario and use it for dairy, confectionery, salty stacks, a whole host of different things. But he looked at the whole value chain from the beer business on a global scale and worked out, if you looked at all of the employees that touched the beer business to be able to make it operate, it's about 23 million jobs around the world. Are in the beer business, $1 in every $130 of GDP, which basically gets you to about 1.6% of global GDP, comes from the beer business, which is one category. And then one in every 110 jobs comes from the beer business. So it multiply that, as I said, to confectionary, to dairy, to salty snacks, it just to soft drinks. What's the number? Is it one in every 50? One in every 25. It's a huge amount of people. And the biggest chunk of those people come from those small traditional businesses, Whether it's one side of the value chain in the production side, but. Or you go the other side of the value chain in those independent stores, those convenience stores, those bars, those restaurants, Lots of small individual players. And one of the things that I think is it was really hard to do when you're representing one brand, and this is not about the company I represented, but any leader in any one company, you always have a responsibility. I think the best responsibility is when you're trying to grow the category, but then you're trying to disproportionately take share of your own products, because that's in essence what you're getting paid for. But the real difference is if you go back to what we talked about already, how can you pull the resources of some really good leaders in multiple different categories for the greater good of those traditional store owners? Those traditional store owners, convenience or retail or restaurant or whatever it may be, want to learn about things that can really make their lives easier. They're doing everything. They want some best practices. They want to know what good looks like. They want to know that it's worked with other people. And this whole idea of could you pull the resources of some really competent people for the greater good of that traditional trade led me into the idea of what to do next in semi retirement, which was to chair the consumer packaged Goods Council.

I just want to pause you on that for a second because this, this stat blew my mind. So it's like one in every. I don't know, what did you say? One every 20 jobs. It's like, it's like what?

Every 110 jobs is beer. So it could be one in every 50. One in every 25 jobs is CPG across the world.

And I was thinking about this because, you know, we've all had student jobs and, you know, worked in a bar or I racked the shelves in a supermarket and, you know, it's like we've all touched the. The CPG business in some way. And I think it's amazing we forget that but. And yet the voice of the, these independent entrepreneurs, the people who have the heart and are super loyal I think is I love the, I love the way that it's, you know, we can start to represent them in some way so.

Well, it isn't. Think about it from a customer experience perspective. You walk into a store and you talk to the store staff. How would like they like to influence your net promoter score? If you said how good was your experience today? It's often those they're the most important people in providing customer experience. You have a delivery network. The most important person in that delivery network is the person who does the delivery. And how do you communicate with all of those people? So it got to this idea what does good look like? What is the best practice that you could adopt that get everybody to be able to do that right level. How could you then measure that and set some benchmarks for an industry rather than just one company saying the benchmark is 30, another company saying the benchmark is 50 and the independent retailer goes, well, I don't actually know who to believe. And then how do you get to a point where I feel very privileged, a little bit like you. I worked in a bar. This was my first experience, my first ever job. And from working in a bar to becoming the chief customer officer of a large global brewer feels like I went all the way through that journey. But you learn the only way you go through that journey is because you learn quicker than the environment that you find yourself in. And if you can learn quicker, you can progress. But how do we provide then education materials for everybody who provides customer experience? And it got to those three fundamental things that I think we can do as a by pooling resources around the whole of that traditional trade together, whether you're in any one of the categories as I've already mentioned. But how can you then set what does good look like, what's best practices that are applicable, whether you're selling beer, soft drinks, you're selling salty snacks, confectionery, dairy, whatever it may be, or your what's then the benchmark that you should have that apply to all those categories? And what's the education materials that we can provide to the traditional store owner or the employee that works in there, or the delivery driver? Because I think deep down everybody wants to have something better. I don't see many people in life saying that today should be worse than yesterday. You want today to be better than yesterday. So how could we collectively play a role in Improving that service and support to the traditional trade as a council, because there's no way can you get to talk to all of them. But modern technology today, there's lots of ways we can give them access to these things.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, you know, that's my business customer feedback. So to me that seems that that's one of the ways it could do it by, by giving it back to the CPG vendors. But I think it's a really noble cause, especially when you think about what we've come out of, you know, the back of a pandemic, global supply issues. Probably it's even going to be expensive to heat bars and stores this, this winter. You know, there's going to be, we're going into a real perfect storm. So I think the more that the CPG brands can do to really listen and to the channel and provide solutions, I think it's going to be better. That's the paradox that you're talking about.

It is. And that they will solve it by solving it together.

Yeah.

I mean, what you just described there, they're complex issues. If you solve, for example, just one part of that, you solve the utility costs, whether you're a business or an employee, it creates another problem. And the challenge is, I always think if you can put, think about the two challenges together and solve them collectively, with all the brain power that exists, it's impossible for us not to be able to find a solution.

And I love that story. Again, we saw it on stage a few weeks ago when the Heineken guys were telling us about how the brand can be so trusted that an independent bar owner can say, hey, they're the keys to my bar. If you want to deliver the beer in the middle of the night, that's it. I mean, that's really trusting somebody with your life. And I guess there's scope there to double up on deliveries to save fuel costs. I don't know, There must be great advantages there for the industry to work, work together.

It's how transformation happens. And I think that's where we're going to end up into going forward because technology is going to allow many more businesses to come together. But I'd love to get to a point where that traditional store owner or the traditional retail bar owner or restaurant owner or whatever those independent businesses are, because there's, there's millions of them around the world. I bet they've all got some best practices somewhere that we could just share with each other and everybody then wins. Because if I shop in a convenience store in my neighborhood and you shop in a convenience store in your neighborhood. They're not really competing with each other. You and I live in two different countries. But I guarantee if we could share with them a piece of best practice that actually improves sales, they would generally want to be interested. They want to know what's doing that. They've got this hunger and heart to be able to grow their business. And you win. You know when it's working, when you get a customer experience score, a positive NPS score, and you're up in the 70s and 80s, you know it's working.

Yeah, I totally agree. As we start to bring this episode to a close, Nigel, what are the benefits for CPG vendors to join the Experience Council? How would you phrase that for them as a way of going forward?

I think there's a principle, I think to begin with. So if the principle of pulling our collective resources to go together, to go beyond the capabilities of today, if that phrase trigger something in you, and I always think when a phrase gets your hairs on the back of your neck to tingle or you go, I'm excited by that. Tap into the emotion that that phrase creates. Can you pool our resources to go beyond today's collective capabilities for the greater good of that traditional channel? Then if that inspires you or gets you thinking, I'd like to know more. Then I think that's the first question. If that, if that triggers something in you positively, then have a look at the CPG Experience Council website. There's a little bit more details on there. Click and follow through. Have a conversation with me and some of the other founding members, because that's where we get to. And there's three fundamental things I'd like us to try and be able to do. One is what is best practice that we can all collectively agree on? And there's a whole host of techniques. That means it won't be best practice from Company A or Company B. It would be best practice from the members of that council because we'll all add something in that, pooling our resources together to create the best practice. I'd love us to be able to set benchmarks that make sense for every brand owner and every category and every retailer so they know what good looks like. Give you one simple example. If you're going to survey your customer base, what is a good benchmark for each? Is it 2%? Is it 10%? Is it 15? Is it 30? Is it 50? How can you get to 80? There's even just on that one example, there's multiple Things we could explore together to set a new level. So if you got best practices benchmarks, and then the final part is, how can we provide education materials that just mean the consumer has a better experience because the employees anywhere in that value chain are doing something better. And if consumers get a better experience, they spend more. And frankly, we all win when that happens. That's the growth economy that we have in place just there and then.

Wow, that's wonderful. Let me just summarize those again for people. Listen, what is best practice? How do you benchmark it and then provide education for the channel?

Wonderful. Perfect.

But I'm going to. Just before we go, there's one thing you said that really stuck in my mind.

You.

You said something about red teaming. And I think this is particularly appropriate because if you've got potentially competitors in a room together, there's first of all legal issues about that, you know, privacy issues, all these sort of things. That's hard to do, but you still need to go for the concept of best practice. So how do you manage to do that for this?

Yeah, there is this. Red teaming is an interesting proposition. It actually started in the military. It's when you get a military mission and you bring in a red team and a blue team, both of them could do the mission, but the blue team actually gets given the mission itself and they go away and they plan it all out. But before they go and execute the mission, they come in back into the room, and the red team, who are just equally capable of doing that same mission, every single person in that red team gets to give the blue team a piece of feedback on how they could make it better, how they can keep their buddies safe, and how they can make the mission a success. Well, if you take that principle and move it into the commercial world and you've got 10 people in a room, somebody goes away and creates a plan to be able to solve a particular problem. And the other nine people, before they execute the plan, every one of them gives them a piece of feedback to say, I can make this better and I can keep you safe and make the whole mission a better success. You end up with a completely different plan and a better plan that every single person's had a voice in.

You built on it.

I guess you're building it. And the idea then for the CPG Council then is that if any brand owner brings in a piece of best practice, we would red team it. And 10, 20, 30 different brand owners would get chance to be able to add their value to it. So you end up with a piece of best practice at the end that every single brand owner has had a voice in that's made it even better. And wherever you came in at you've moved the progression on so the brand owners get something better because They've heard from 20 other brand owners. The customer gets something better and the consumer gets something better because you've all had a chance to build in it. And it comes back to that founding philosophy pooling our collective resources to go beyond today's capabilities and Red Team is just a nice simple way to be able to do that and to remove some of the tensions.

I love it. Nigel, thank you so much for sharing your vision with us today. I think the you represent such a great community with heart and I love the way that you're committed to improving it especially from your background. Thanks so much and look forward to hearing more from you on the CPG experience Castle as it develops.

Lovely. You're very welcome. Thank you Adam.