The 3 Things You're (Probably) Doing Wrong in Your Experience Program

A lady who is the champion at this new company we're talking to found out from one of our customers at the gym about our software. The gym. I mean, that's like, we didn't even really ask for it, but that's. That's the definition of a promoter, right? Like, this other lady was at the gym and somehow they got talking about customer experience and she's like, oh, yeah, go check out customer gauge. We get a demo in on the website. The next day we're talking to them on a sales call. Pretty damn good chance this thing's gonna. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Account experience podcast. Today we're focused on what we're calling the three things you're probably doing wrong in your experience program. And we're basing this episode on the hundreds of conversations we've had with prospects and early stage customers over the years. And you know what? Carrie and I have even made some of these mistakes ourselves back in our program days. So what are they, you may ask? Let's dive in and find out. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode. I'm joined as always with my co host, Kerry T. Self. Say hello, Kerry.

Hello, everybody.

And today we are talking about the three things you're probably doing wrong in your experience program. And I'm sure there's just. Again, speaking from experience, guys, I'm sure there's a litany of things that we could all improve, but we wanted to really hone in on three specific things, three tactics, three approaches that we see often from new customers, onboarding that already have existing programs that just, they're. They're just not doing it right. And there's no other way to say it. So let's dive right in. You ready, Kerry?

Yeah, most definitely.

Okay, so the first one, not setting targets. And we've done a lot of research on this with mit. Specifically, do you set targets in your program? Are you monitoring these targets on a regular basis? And the answer is always a resounding not really. But we know it's important, but we just don't have time, and we don't think that's good enough anymore if we're being completely upfront about it. Targets are so important. Every other major department in a business has targets. Marketing has targets. Sales has targets. CSM has targets. Like, why aren't we setting targets on these experience programs? So, Kerry, what are your thoughts on this one?

Yeah, I think the big fear of not setting targets comes from two things. Number one, not hitting them. Let's call it what it is, I think there's a fear around. If I say I'm going to increase by 10% or add X amount of dollars to revenue, I think there's a little bit of a fear or hesitation around that. But the problem is, if you don't have a target, where's everyone aiming for? I'm sure I'm gonna throw like a hundred cliches on this one alone, but the reality is, you know, it's. It's. Would you go watch a sporting event if they weren't keeping score on the board? You got to know if you're successful, what's the measurement of success. But it's also what aligns the team. We talked about breaking down silos so many times and making this cross all of our. Of our departments. Well, the only way you're going to do that successfully and keep people going and, you know, that initial push of getting everyone involved, what is that target? What are we heading towards? What do we want to accomplish?

Yeah, and that's so important to rally a team around something, too. I mean, just for managing my own team, I give them a date and a KPI to hit, and they will do everything in their power to make sure they're hitting that. All you have to do is remind them of that target every week, and it's like they're a machine just going towards that thing just to beat it, because they. They love that challenge. So imagine what this could do across an entire organization where you literally say, all right, this is our target for this month, this quarter, this year. And it's not just nps, Right? We're not just talking about NPS targets. We could be talking about a bunch of different things. You should have targets for response rates, revenue generated from referrals as a result of your experience, program coverage rates, anything you should have a target on. And it. It seems overwhelming. And I get that's probably why the majority of us are not using targets, but it's really not that bad. Once you get a dashboard set up and you're just tracking against the target, and then it becomes kind of like an automated type of deal. You just plug them in every month, every quarter, and you're off to the races. I mean, is that kind of how you do. Did it carry at your previous companies?

Yeah. I'm gonna throw something out there that I think everyone in the industry has heard or talked about, but smart targets, right? You know, make them very specific. They can't be vague. You know, if it's a number of dollars, a percentage over, you know, make it measurable also, you know, you just can't say improve nps. I mean that's not a target, that's a wish, you know, so it has to be able to be measurable. It's important. It's got to be assignable. Who's going to own this thing? You know, who at the end of the day if we don't hit our target, has to be accountable for coming up with a new target or going back and explaining why it didn't, making those targets realistic. You know, I hear so many people go, we're going to increase our NPS by 20 or we're going to eliminate these three drivers from being detractors. You know, these are all wonderful things, but it's got to be very realistic when you set it. And then there's got to be a time, it's got to be time related. If it's this open ended target that you set, you'll never hit it, you'll never get there. You had a good point. When you tell your team, look, we're going to hit it by this Friday, everyone is doing everything they can to make sure they hit it on Friday or they have an explanation of why it didn't happen by that Friday.

Yeah. And I love that. Smart goals, right? I mean we use them across lot of different businesses. I'm sure we use them internally. At cg it is super important to make them real. Because I think what can happen is, and I've worked at companies like this where we would just pick a target on a wall and it's just crazy goals that just, you know, are not physically achievable and that can be demoralizing. Right. So that's like the opposite effect of what a target should have. It should motivate your team. It should get them right rallied behind hitting this one thing. Cause they know they can do it and it's a stretch but you know, if they just put in that effort, they put in that extra little, they should be able to hit it. And I think the one thing that I keep coming back to about targets is you're probably big on this, Carrie. But it's fear, right? Like fear of what happens if we don't hit that target. What happens to me personally if I don't hit that target. So your point of like making sure somebody owns that target is accountable for that target is scary for a lot of people, I'm sure. And especially those champions that are in those positions, they're like, wow, I don't really want to be held accountable because I don't really know what's going to happen and I don't really feel like in control. But that, that shouldn't be a good reason to not do it because what happens on the other side, I always like to try to flip it. And what happens if you do hit that target consistently and you overachieve? You probably get promoted. And to our previous episode, you're probably moving up the ladder pretty damn quick. So what's been your experience on the fear side of it, Kerry?

It's funny you say that because I'm going to whip out another cliche, but I always talk about if you're not setting clear targets and everyone's not very much aligned with them, what you end up doing is putting targets on your team members. And that's how they feel. They feel they're going to be targeted, you know, when it goes wrong, they'll be blamed when it, when they, when they don't have an answer to something, they're the ones that are going to be pulled out and held accountable. And I always talk about when you're setting up a smart target, smart goals, what you're also doing is talking about, okay, what happens if we hit it and what happens if we don't make it very clear way out. This should be part of that conversation. Like, this will be great if we can hit this sales goal. We all have sales goals. At the end of the day, we know how much money we have to sell to keep our business running. But what happens if we miss that by 5%? What is the accountability and the consequences to that? And if you can get that out of the way up front as part of that smart goal, then people in their minds know what they're working towards and how important it is. Because I think you're right, that fear will lock people up. It's because it's what's unknown. They start to fill in those gaps or those voids with their own storyline. And it's always much worse than the reality of things. I don't care what anyone says, it's always worse. So this way you can't be disappointed if it's like not as bad. But yeah, I think you're taking the target off of your individual team. You're taking the target off your managers and your CX and you're putting the target out there that you all can aim towards and work towards.

And I think that's the key, is that it's not. It is technically on an owner, but it really motivates that owner to make sure that it's a own target across the org. Right. So, like, the first thing, if I had a target like that and it was a good stretch target, the first thing I would do is gather all the troops from every department and rally them around this goal. Right. I mean, and I'm sure that's the same thing you would do, Carrie, but it takes a village. I mean, it really does. You can't do it alone, especially experience on the B2B side, because it's so complex. You really have to gather the troops and formulate a plan with specific measurable targets within a time frame. And, you know, if you have to improve something that is on the collective group to do it together. And that's ultimately your biggest power, is using everybody in the org together to hit that target collectively, Even though it's on you as a personal owner. That target, I think that's. That's a really important piece. Anything else to add on to that, Carrie, before we jump to our next one?

And I like what you said about looking at from another direction, too, because think of it this way, you know, as a salesperson, I have a goal. As a customer success manager or an account manager, I have goals and targets that I'm trying to hit. But don't the other departments do one of two things? Either they're like siloed, and they're like, oh, that's your target, your goal. Aha, he failed. Good. Makes me look better. Or kind of. What we do is we celebrate when other people hit their targets and goals. We have our weekly ops call, and we sit around, and when I see that we've hit our funnel numbers, our sales is doing a good job inside, I'm kind of celebrating.

Yeah, of course.

Me rolling out new education. As an education guy, it's not about selling education. It's like, how can education help sales hit their target? How can education help us retain a customer for another year? This is how a good, healthy company should be thinking when you're setting targets. Because again, it's a multiplier. It's not just a few more dollars. It helps multiply all the departments across the board.

And you mentioned the word celebration, which we talked about this previously, but we're going to do like a couple episodes on just making sure you're celebrating all of these wins. But like a great example that comes to mind from our customer base. One of the insurance companies we have as a customer econ, they set a target of basically zero nps. So they wanted just to Get a zero nps. And when they hit it, they did this massive celebration with the CEO cracking champagne in front of like a big kind of like background that had the brand all over it and the NPS ethos behind them. It was so cool. And it was like, it doesn't matter what the target is. Like, set a target and go to it and celebrate it when you hit it. Because that can do such amazing things to the morale of a company.

Yeah. We are nothing. We are nothing. Yay. But you hear that Zero is your target. But for them, it was a company changing event. And everyone knew if you asked anyone in that company what their target was, they knew it. There was, there was no distraction from that. There. It was very specific. It was very much communicated very well.

Yeah. And I just, I love that story. And there's a video that goes along with it too, so I recommend you guys check it out. But it's a really cool story, so. All right, Setting targets. Everybody could do it better. If you don't have any targets, just start with one and move on from there. Just like we give any advice about experience programs, start small and build it out as you go. Super, super important for not only just hitting targets, but it's gonna tap into our last kind of thing, which I won't really give away now, but they're all related, so let me get to the next one. So the second thing that you're probably doing wrong in your experience program, not aligning your referral program with experience program. So this essentially means that you have an experience program. You're sending out these surveys or text messages, whatever they may be you're capturing. Who's a promoter detractor? Passive. Once you have that promoter locked and loaded, they say, wow, we love your product so much. Oh, my God. You're not following up and saying, hey, could you refer us? Seems like a no brainer. And you would be shocked by how many companies do not do this simple thing. And again, when we mean align your referral program with your experience program, it's not just asking for the referral, but it's actually taking the revenue you generate from your referral program and then tying it to your experience program. So you say, hey, our experience program has generated $1 million in extra revenue per year due to a bunch of different things like upsells, cross sells referrals, yada, yada, yada. But you can tie a number to your program so simply by just asking for referrals and then backing it into your experience program. Kerry, what are your Thoughts on this one?

I don't even know where to start. This is such a big one. Well, first off, I don't want to insult anybody, but listen to the program. Net promoter. Isn't promoter a referral? Right. This person's willing to recommend us. They literally are telling you, I'm willing to recommend you because I see value in what it is you do. So. So just in the name itself tells you you have an audience of referrals and they will do it for you. Now, on the other part of that is, and you brought up the perfect point, how can you tie revenue to that promoter group or that referral group? And, you know, a lot of us were champions of programs. Ian, you were. I was probably anyone that's listening to this at some point was trying to get an experience program of some sort up and running to get investment and backing in that. And the hardest thing we all had to do was how do we tie our effort, the customer sentiment and the account sentiment, to dollars and cents? And imagine if you can make the connection of, I have these promoters that are willing to recommend us. Oh, yeah. And based on their recommendation, it brought in these many dollars last year. Already you are saying this is the return on investment on this one simple thing. You know, do you know anyone that would benefit from what we're offering the same way you did? And I know it's. I'm boiling it down to the simplest way, but you have an entire audience of people who are screaming, they love you. They would recommend you, so do it. Call them out on that. Then you gave me a 10. Who do you know that needs me the same way you need me? You know, and it's funny, it's not even about another company sometimes it's just another department. So this feeds to the breaking down silos. Is there another department or another region or division within the own organization that this person can refer you to? You know, so now you're getting more momentum behind your program. You're spreading the gospel of how important account experience is. But now you're really engaging. You're activating your promoters to be referrals for you.

And I love how these all relate, right? So you can even bring it back to point one, setting targets. Could you imagine what it's like if you could actually set a revenue target on your experience program as opposed to maybe like an NPS score? Like what that would do to the executive management in their. In your board? Like, hey, our experience program, we're just. We're gonna do from 1.5 million bucks a year to 1.7 million bucks a year.

Wait a minute, wait, whoa, wait a minute. I'm gonna put the CEO hat on for a second. You're telling me you're not just gonna put out fires and fix the problems people are having? You're gonna actually make money? What?

That's right, sir. I need a raise as well.

That's a great point though, right?

I mean, yeah, it's crazy.

It's like turning it around. Unfortunately, for years, everyone thought customer experience or account experience was about putting out fires or taking feedback and fixing what's broken. But now we're talking about actively contributing to our growth and to our profit.

Yeah. And understanding it. Right. So that's the other cool piece that when you do this as a marketer, I mean, another method we should bust is that marketers don't really understand math. To some extent, that's true, but as a marketer, I can kind of like, I'm sure everybody else on this call can, too. It's basically envision the funnel math, right? So if you know that you generate, let's say, 25% of your referrals, generate revenue at an average ticket of X, you can literally extrapolate that out and say, all right, if we want to increase our revenue, we need to get X amount more responses. And you can kind of back it into these other targets that really. You set targets, all is related. You set targets for your response rates, you can generate more revenue. All these things are related. And it's. It's a program. I mean, they all work together. So I just. We harp on this a lot, guys. And I know that is probably a broken record, but it is so important. And we're going to keep talking about it until we see more people doing it, because it's. It's crazy. The amount of people that we talk to prospect and, you know, early customers that don't quite get this piece. And it's okay because it's. It's not a common thing, but magic happens when you start to do this stuff. It really does. And it's not just company wise, but it's like if you're a champion and you're trying to figure out how to make this thing bigger in your company, man, there is no better firepower than just saying, this is what I produce for revenue. This episode of the Account Experience podcast is sponsored by CustomerGage, the leading B2B account experience software that ties revenue to your experience data in real time time to help you make better account centric decisions. That drive revenue growth. Quick question. What do you guys think is the number one reason B2B experience programs fail? Believe it or not, it's lack of C Suite buy in in CustomerGage's research with MIT, they've found the quickest way to align yourselves with the C suite is to actually align with what they care about most, which is revenue. That's why Customer Gauge is literally built from the ground up to maximize and track the revenue contribution from your experience program in real time. Companies like dhl, Anheuser Busch, Heineken, uh, yeah, we get a good amount of FreeBear1 login, IronMountain, H&R Block, SuperOffice and SugarCRM are already using Customer Gauge to maximize their growth by tying their programs to revenue. And with over $10 billion worth of account revenue actively being managed and Customer Gauge, yeah, that's billion. With a B, they're the leader in the space. But maybe even more interesting, they found that once you get alignment with that C suite, the needs of these B2B practitioners or the program champions are evolving too. In such a complex account environment, it can be really tough to measure and act on feedback quickly across multiple departments, divisions or even locations. Luckily, Customer Gauge has you covered there as well with account native features that easily help you not only measure the feedback for multiple stakeholders in an account, but act on that feedback in real time. Because at the end of the day, if you're not empowering your frontline staff with the right insights to address customer issues, you're going to be dealing with a churn issue. It's not a matter of if, it's really a matter of when. Customer Gauge helps you distribute this experience data across your entire organization, regardless of department, regardless of location, regardless of division, all in real time. No manual spreadsheets or a team of analysts are needed. CustomerGage's mission is to help B2B companies harness the power of account centric growth to drive meaningful change in their businesses. And that's a powerful thing. If you want to see Customer Gauge in action, go ahead and check out CustomerGage.com and get a demo of account experience today. You won't regret it.

Yeah. And yeah, it's such an empowering thing. I hate to say this, but the reality is it's all about dollars and cents. It's all about what are you doing to drive profit into the company. And it's, you know, there's a lot of nice to haves that companies have, but at the end of the day, the need to have is Revenue and you know, what a phenomenal empowering tool you give a group of people and you know, Ian, I think we're just hitting the tip of the iceberg here when it comes to referrals. I, I feel a future episode lined up here, but we're not even talking about. It's less expensive to bring a referred customer on board. It's, you know, they actually spend more. They're not as defensive or protective of spending more money. They come in with higher expectations, of course, but they trust you more. Their implementation and their just to sell to them is shorter, but to get them up and running is usually shorter. Also there's so many wins to bring referrals in versus cold contacts or going out there and bringing a new audience in. We could talk about that one for a whole session, which I'm sure we will, but it's just, it seems like a no brainer. But yeah, I think you're right, Ian. So many of us fail to engage that product promoter group as a referral base.

I can give you a real life example at customer gauge this last week. So we closed a referral deal, 14 day sales cycle which is, I can't give you the full sales cycle we have, but I am telling you guys, it is, I think it's the top one or two fastest closing deals of CG history and they close for more money than our average ticket. So this is from a referral. I mean I don't know how else we can relay this that if you can set up a program around those deals and we've got, I'd say we're in the double digits now this year of referral deals that have come in. Takeaway.com was another great customer we onboarded this year from a referral. There's just a ton, a ton, a ton of pipeline that are companies that have heard from this other company. We heard a story this morning from in our sales marketing sync about a company in the Netherlands that a lady who is the champion at this new company we're talking to found out from one of our customers at the gym about our software. The gym. I mean that's like, we didn't even really ask for it. But that's, that's the definition of a promoter, right? Like this other lady was at the gym and somehow they got talking about customer experience and she's like, oh yeah, go check out customer gauge. We get a demo in on the website. The next day we're talking to them on a sales call. Pretty damn good chance this thing's gonna close. And it's a cool brand, too. I can't give away yet, but we're really excited about this one. It's a really cool brand.

So coming to a gym near you.

Yeah, yeah. Maybe that's a whole episode. Integrate your experience program in a gym. But my God, I mean, it's just, it's so powerful, guys. And I know we can keep talking about it, but it really becomes a different thing when you experience it. And I think that's what we're really trying to relay here is like, just get started. I mean, once you get that first one in, it's going to be. We don't need to sell you on it anymore. It's going to be blatantly obvious to you that this is a smart business decision. That's really cool. So the third piece of what you're probably doing wrong in your experience program, the first two points again, setting targets, aligning your referral program to experience program. They're related. So the last one we're going to be talking about is not reporting up properly. So we kind of hinted at this in the first two points. But reporting your program up and I'm talking it can be frontline to your middle management, it can be middle management to your C level, it can be your C level to your board. Every one of those different elements has something that I think can be improved and carry a. Hate to throw a giant grenade on you like this with all those different options. But I think that my point is we see C levels misreporting experience programs up to the board. But I think there's also this other piece where it's like, let's start at the champion level. Right? So if you're a champion reporting up to your C suite, how do you do it? Like, what are people doing wrong? Give me a day in the life there.

I think this goes back to some things we talked about before. I think first off, it's very snapshot driven. I think sometimes we take a snapshot in time and we don't give our C suite the ability to be dynamic with that data. So something as simple as instead of sending them a PowerPoint or some PDFs, send them the actual dashboard link. Sent the report up ahead of time. Yes. I work for Customer Gauge. I'm not going to lie to you. This is what we do. This is what we're really good at. But you know, pre bake up two or three reports. So when that CFO has a financial question in the middle of a meeting, you can Apply that filter and get your answer immediately. I think the biggest mistake is we give them this snapshot, a bunch of assumptions, arguments, notes are taken and the conversation doesn't get picked up again. Or if it does, it's weeks later, or it's maybe two of them at lunch a day later with some additional information. Give them the power of immediacy, I think is a big one. So I think you empower that. Yeah, you empower that as you communicate that up. The other thing that I think some companies fail to do and be prepared for this one, this is brave, but communication up should be bi directional. And what I mean by that is, do you have a vehicle that, you know, once you've set your targets and you know what the expectations are and the accountability and you've got, you know, we use referral as one of the ways that you can really tie revenue into that. Do you have a vehicle that can deliver that, the results up? This is our target, this is how we're performing. Break that down. So these are how the individual components are adding up to the whole. So that's that communication upward. But do they have a vehicle then to communicate back? You know, can they put notes into that and push that back out to the field? Is there committees or somehow there's got to be a bi directional. I think what happens sometimes is we push communication out and then we assume it's doing what it should be doing. And communication is about understanding. Communication is about a back and forth. And I think sometimes we miss that back and forth. You know, an email is not communication if there's not a reply. If an email goes more than two or three back and forths, get on a call, have a conversation. And I think it's the same way with your, with your experience data. You know, it's like, help me understand it. Let's break this down a little bit further. Let's talk about this. Or you know, you know, how many times, Ian, have we been like called into a meeting that we weren't even expecting? Hey, give me some more insights on this. You know, I have these nightmare scenarios where I would have to run back to my desk and whip up all these different. You know, it's like imagine having a platform or a place where you go, well, let's look at that, let's dive in deeper. And you know, in the last year, how many times have we sat around our own dashboards and just dove into some of that feedback and we opened up our CRM and we opened up our own platform and we Were able to look at data live and have conversations back and forth. I think those are two of the things that I see. What about you, Ian? I don't know if you want to add to that or if there's something communicating update that you see is a little bit of a gap or a miss.

Yeah, I think one thing I've seen, and this is even higher, I think maybe which is the C level to the board level. And it's just from like looking at it from the outside in. Right. So I see these companies publish them on their annual reports, things like that. And I think there's no standardized way to report this stuff. So for example, one company may be reporting NPS score, another company may be reporting csat, another company reporting revenue. Rarely does that happen. But so I think a lot of companies get it wrong by they're not focused again and I hate to bring it back to this, but they're not focused on the right things. Where net promoter is great, but like tie it to how many renewals were driven from your program, how much upsell, cross sell, referral revenue. I mean make it like a line item piece of your business. I think that again is going to communicate way better to your board. I mean for the most part boards understand NPS scores at this point, which is great. I know there's guys out there like Jason Lemkin that have really harped on making NPS a core metric for your SaaS company out there. So it's great that we're like at that phase one point where I think a lot of companies are reporting on nps. They're tracking it in some way, shape or form. There's a whole can of worms where like are the companies reporting it properly? Are the standardized across all of these different things, which most of them aren't. So it kind of like grain of salt with every NPS score. My point being everybody understands revenue and there's only one way to report revenue. Right. NPS can be gained. There's a lot of bad things about reporting nps. There's a lot of good things about reporting nps. I think the balance comes where you say, this is our nps, this was our target, this is how far we were above it, below it or on it. And then this is the revenue we produce from the program, the board. I feel like if you gave them those two metrics, they would care a hell of a lot more about the revenue and the revenue growth. Right. So I think again kind of aligning with that second point that we already talked about report the revenue. If you're C level up to the board and demand that your company internally align around revenue, demand that they owner revenue number, whoever it may be. If it's all departments, fine. But set up a system around revenue. NPS is great, but the board cares about revenue ultimately. The CEO cares about revenue ultimately. I mean, give them what they want. At the end of the day.

Yeah, it's nice that our customers love us, but are they spending money? Are we making money? And those are important. I like the standardized component also looking at that common denominator. What is a language or what is a number or statistic or whatever it is that everyone understands, what's the unify, Right? And I think that that is so huge. The only thing that came to my mind too is making sure you're educating a little bit. I heard you at the beginning talk about NPS and CSAT and effort scores and you know, we get on calls all the time. We work with so many different companies and I think there's a blurring. Sometimes the expert, the champions are really good. They know what each of those scores does for them and when to use it most of the time. But I think once you start to leave that experience department, people get a little like, why is a five good here and a 10 is good over there? And what does 47 mean compared to that 22? And you know, it's like it's. We have all these different data points now that we're. You almost have to educate a little bit in this. So make sure that there is that education that goes with that score that gets sent up also.

Yeah, education's super key. I think the one piece I would add to that is just don't educate them on a health score with like 25 different parameters that that will fall on its face every single time. I think that tends to happen more. Call me out, guys, if this is wrong. Send me the hate mail. I'll give you my email after this. But tends to happen more in customer success. I feel like SaaS companies always feel like maybe we need to spin up this super complex algorithm that does all these different things. All because we're techies at heart and we want to get the perfect scenario and have it fully automated. Health score seems to be the new fad, but I'm telling you right now the board won't understand what a health score means because they don't understand what's behind it. I think NPS is at a point where they kind of get it. But revenue, again, keep coming back to that point, everybody understands what revenue means the business. So yeah. Anything else on that, Kerry, before we wrap it up?

No, those are really, those are three good points. I think those are the things that a lot of our companies, a lot of people that we talk to are missing. I know I'm guilty of missing them in the past two or maybe doing them a little bit, little bit off. But yeah.

Yeah. So just to recap guys, not setting targets, not aligning your referral program to experience program and then not reporting out properly. So three things that you're probably doing wrong in your experience program. There's a ton of information out there whether it be on CustomerGage.com or other other places like just start try to get your best V1 up and running. MVP minimum viable product. I feel like your business will thank you. So yeah, it's always our advice. Just get started and things will fall into place. Thank you for listening. This is the Counter Experience podcast. Thank you to my co host Carrie T. Self and subscribe. Share with your friends and we'll talk soon. Sa.